Episode 737 - Students Should Surpass Instructors
In this episode, Jeremy and co-host Andrew Adams take on whether or not Students Should Surpass Instructors.
Students Should Surpass Instructors - Episode 737
Are today’s martial artists better than yesterday? Are instructors letting their students be better than them? In this episode, Jeremy and co-host Andrew Adams take on whether or not Students Should Surpass Instructors.
After listening to the episode, it would be exciting for us to know your thoughts about it. Don’t forget to drop them in the comment section below!
Show Transcript
You can read the transcript below.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Hey, what's happening everybody, welcome. This is whistlekick Martial Arts Radio today, Andrew and I are tackling the statement, which we are unified in defending absolutely students should surpass instructors
Andrew Adams:
Do you think it will ruffle feathers?
Jeremy Lesniak:
I only think we're gonna ruffle feathers. Feathers just wants I would like to somebody can someone out there ruffle their feathers and tell us about it please
Andrew Adams:
Get their hackles up.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Just as an aside, this is what happens when you record several episodes at once. And you get deeper into it and it gets sillier. So all right, if you're new to the show, If you're new to the show, I'm sorry, good luck. What we do here on whistlekick Martial Arts Radio is we tackle subjects and we interview people from the traditional martial arts world, because we as an organization, as a brand, are looking to connect, educate and entertain the traditional martial artists of the world. And if you want to see all the things that we're doing, because it is a lot more than this show, you can go to whistlekick.com, and see references, pages, links to all the things that we've got going on from our social media, to projects that we sponsor to our store. And the store has a bunch of products, shirts, and hats and training gear and training programs and events and all kinds of cool stuff that you likely would be interested in.
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Andrew Adams:
Yes, goodbye.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Thank you for coming to my TED Talk. All right. There's a word in there that we don't generally use that I've actually worked really hard to remove from my vocabulary.
Andrew Adams:
And it's shocking to me that I agree with its usage. I think it's appropriate in this instance, because not only does it often not happen, I think instructors, there are a subset of instructors that are encouraged to make sure that does not happen.
Jeremy Lesniak:
So when we make this statement, let's take a step back. If you watch Thursday shows, you know we both tend to spend a little bit of time around definitions in language at the beginning to make sure we're all on the same site. Because it's hard to have a discussion when you're talking about a word in one way, and I'm talking about it in another way. And the audience has their own third way of doing it. We're talking about the collective group students, meaning the current generation of martial artists that are actively engaged as students in schools should surpass instructors, again, a collective if we do our job, right? The next generation of martial artists is better than the current generation of martial arts.
Andrew Adams:
And I think this can be said for anything. If I'm a biology teacher, and I'm teaching biology, I want my students to learn more than I know. Here's the difference. This does happen everywhere else.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Are today's martial artists better than yesterday's martial artists? If we were to serve not in that broadway, but in a specific way. Do you think your instructor at this point in their martial arts career is better than their instructor at the same point? I think a lot of people don't know that. I would say most but a lot of people would say no, we have this we celebrate what came before in a way that nothing else does. I couldn't agree when you look at sports. And normally this is where I go to basketball but basketball aside from today's crop of athletes outperforms yesterday's crop of athletes which we see at the Olympics time and again.
New records being set at World Championships, new records being set yet, even though it's getting better. It happens continually. Because when you understand the thing is possible you continue to get better Okay, we have the opposite attitude in martial arts. They were better back then. You were better back then. Yeah, he was the most celebrated martial artist. Currently, I would say probably Bruce Lee, personally, he's been gone for 50 years. I'm not diminishing the accomplishments, accomplishments he's made. No. But if we are constantly looking backwards, we are not looking today, we are not looking forward. And that means that we cannot progress. He's gone. Yeah, he can't give us new stuff. Yep. And I think just because we'll go back to the sports analogy.
Andrew Adams:
How many of those Olympic athletes are being coached by someone who's better than them? Because if the coach is better than the athlete, why is the coach not in the Olympics, right? That doesn't mean you can't learn things from someone who's not as I mean, they're being coached by that person for a reason. Right.
Jeremy Lesniak:
So well, again, everywhere but martial arts, we recognize that the ability to coach or teach is separate from the ability to do correct , but not in martial arts, because if you can't do it, you can't teach me how to do it better. Wow. No, that's how I read every online comment.
Andrew Adams:
You know what, I'm one of the best Highland dancing instructors. So for the listeners, you know, I'm involved in bagpipe bands, and that community has Highland dancing, and one of them continually produces dancers that compete at the top of the game and win World Championships. And she is a very large woman, she cannot dance anymore. She used to, but she can't. She is good as she's trained people up to though. I don't know if she was to be honest. And that's a great illustration. She's phenomenal. Her students are phenomenal. And she can't do it.
Jeremy Lesniak:
This happens all the time. So now that we've unpacked what it is, we're talking about, why isn't it happening? It's because we're looking to the past. You mentioned something kind of towards the top of the episode about instructors holding students back. Tell us more about that.
Andrew Adams:
I think it all stems from ego, without 100%. It all stems from ego. I'm teaching and I'll use myself because I don't mind vilifying myself. I'm the instructor of the class, and I'm teaching a bunch of students.
I want them to continue to put me on a pedestal, we did an episode about how that's bad. But I want to be able to look down upon my students and survey the scene. And, you know, for those that are just listening, I'm kind of prepping my chest out her thumbs up, and I felt that I was in and looking down at them.
So that I seem as important as I can. If my students start to get better than me, they are not. The fear is my fear is they are not going to continue to look up to me. For those of you out there who teach, who have schools, who have students, let me potentially burst your bubble.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Very few if any of your students come to train with you, because you're awesome. Yep, they come to train with you for what you can teach them. They want to learn from you, they want to become better. They don't want to come and pray at the foot of the master. That's not how most people set out to do anything. Are there exceptions? There are and we follow a variety of famous martial artists, you know, former competitors or movie stars or people celebrated for whatever reasons. And there are people who you know, like to kiss but virtually, and I've seen some of them in person, not literally kissing but just wanting to be around people. Yeah, that's not most of them.
Most people who train, want to train, they want to become better at what they do. And as an instructor, our role should be to help them achieve everything we've learned, and more, because let's remember, we made mistakes in our development. Every one of us looks back and says, You know what? If I had it to do over again, to get where I am now, given what I know, I could do it faster. Hmm, sure. If that is the case, your students should surpass you, not each and every one of them specifically, but some of them you should be able to take everything you know, and convey it in a more efficient manner, because you're able to look at it. With hindsight, it's difficult to look at that with foresight. But to look at it with hindsight and say, okay, here are all the things I know how to do, here are all the things that I think are important.
Let me run you through that. You don't necessarily have to have someone do 10,000 repetitions of a thing before you give them the next thing. Could there be a lesson there? But just because that's what was done for you does not mean it is the necessity that you do it for the next generation. Let me share a really quick anecdote with you. Back in the mid 90s, as a teenager, I was competing fairly heavily and got to know some people on the competitive circuit. And one of the people I got to know very well.
Spoiler alert, if you haven't watched the episode, what was master Ken 41 of the people I got to know very well was master Ken's instructor. Master can map pages from Maine. We had a crush on the same girl like this, this, this is its main, right? Like there weren't a lot of people. And there were very few people who actually dated her anyway. So he won, he won. He definitely, I mean, especially shouted out. He's MasterChef. And so this gentleman had me competing as an adult, and had an adult, student, furry, who was amazing. And I would watch them compete in the same division against each other against each other. And I haven't seen that before. I was like 15. And I was like, I thought it was weird, right? Because I'd never seen it before. And most of my understanding, even though I didn't come from a culture of suppression within the martial arts, I did come from a culture of respect. And so I didn't have context for it. But I knew him well enough. And I wanted him. I said, since is it weird for you to compete with your student? Like, like, what if he wins? Because I hope he wins?
Because as an instructor, what better honor is there for me than to get beat by my own student? Now, these aren't exactly his words. Yeah. But this is the spirit, I remember how I felt. I remember what he was conveying to me, because it was so impactful to me. And that day, his student did beat him. And I don't remember if it was the first time but it was one of the first times. And I remember how genuinely happy it wasn't putting on a fake smile. Because he knew that that success was representative of both of them. It was his hard work, and his ability to teach him to get him there.
Andrew Adams:
And I will tell you, this exact thing has happened to me, not within martial arts, but within drumming. So I compete, and I'm a competitive drummer, and I have had students at all levels. And I will remember, shout out to people never listen to this. And he got up to the same level that I was, and we competed against each other. He was in high school. And he just graduated high school, and he beat me. And I was so genuinely happy for him. And he has gone on to be better than I am now today. Like he's all much better than I am. And we're still great friends, we, you know, we still reminisce about the “good old days”. But that shows that I do more teaching than I did play. And that's if I want to pass on knowledge.
Now we relate this back to martial arts. If I want to pass on the knowledge of martial arts, if I don't pass on everything that I have, and hope that the student learns more, then every generation's martial arts will be worse. That's why you should be trying to make your students better than you. Because if you're at this level, for those just listening, I'm putting my hand up. And then all of your students don't get to that level, they get to a little bit less than their and then all of their students get to a little bit less and then their students get to a little bit less. Two or three or four generations from now. Everyone's martial arts will not be as good as they are now. We want it to stay. We can't, as Ian Abernathy says, preserve it and we don't want it to just stay exactly the same. Because then it doesn't grow.
Jeremy Lesniak:
You cannot have growth without change. Absolutely. Let me ask you a question about how you felt with this student of yours. Did you feel like you had Peace in him getting to that level and surpassing,
Andrew Adams:
There's no doubt about it. He had no other instructor except me. I mean, I remember starting him out holding sticks, like, here's how you hold still seriously, absolutely, from the very beginning. And when he went on to play with bands that were much better than I was at the time, and went on to play in a very famous drum corps in Canada. And the lead drummer for that band is like his father was like, his father was essentially [00:15;31-00:15:33] world. He is an amazing guy.
And when I first met this gentleman, he was the son of future protocols, he wasn't really but he and I never met him before. And it was kind of an honor, because he's a big deal. Yeah, his dad was a big deal. Sure. And he is now because of that, and, and I said it was so nice to meet you. And my shopping is playing in your core. And I just want you to know that I taught him how to hold sticks. And he looks at me and goes, You are his instructor.
Thank you very much. Because how did you feel at that moment? It was amazing. I felt it was so good. I really did. But yeah, he had had no other instructor until that point. And he eventually went off and got a different instructor who was better than I was. So I'm fine with that. And he has gone on and continues to do amazing things in the drumming World.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah. That's a great story. Yeah, that's pretty cool. There's this idea that as we internalize knowledge, we should build efficiency and create the opportunity for people to get better.
Andrew Adams:
You said that he was in high school when he started yet while he was. He was between the summer before his freshman year in high school when I first met him.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Okay, so it took how many years of drumming for him to surpass five? And how many years? Had you been drumming at that point?
Andrew Adams:
Oh, gosh. 2013, maybe 15 or 20. So came five years.
Jeremy Lesniak:
You got him 15 years of education.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah. Now granted, he took it as a high school class he had, he had less than five days a week, which I didn't have when I was a kid.
Jeremy Lesniak:
But you still created collectively, you created the opportunity for him to have plenty more time. And so now, he has many more years to continue to grow. And maybe at some point he or a contemporary of his says, You know what, this is fun, I want to pass on my knowledge. And then he's going to take your 15 years condensed, and everything else he learned from other people, and that's condensed, and then his students aren't going to be able to surpass him in whatever condensed period of time versus what it took him to receive that knowledge. And for myself, as an instructor, you know, I'm not a full time instructor or currently instructor of my own school. But I really enjoy taking on difficult concepts.
And being able to illustrate it in an efficient way so that people can progress. You've seen me teach, you know how much I enjoy that. That to me, is the true manifestation of understanding something is your ability to take it and simplify it and convey it and have people have straight competency have it understood in a shorter period of time than you received it. It is my hope that the things I share with people, they continue to make better, and then teach it back to me so I can get better. Because if we truly embody this notion in martial arts, that by challenging each other, not just physically, physically, we make each other better, right?
We keep saying iron sharpens iron, right? Like we throw that around in our world so often. Yeah, it exists beyond simple physical concepts. It exists in thought and mission in philosophy that we test against each other, we figure out what makes the most sense. And we run from that, that is a continuous should be a continual process. Now, let's talk to the instructors who don't want to make their students pause.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah, we will get there. You said something that made me think of something. The last piece of this puzzle with my drum student that got better than me, about eight, nine years after he graduated high school, he moved away better than I am. Whenever he goes off does his thing. He gets hired to teach at a week-long bagpiping and drumming seminar that I go to as a student. Now I was also hired by the school to do administrative stuff for them. But because I was on site, I said, Hey, you know, I'm here, I'm going to take classes as well. Mike was one of my teachers.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Did you learn stuff?
Andrew Adams:
Oh, absolutely. Because he had gone off and learned stuff on how to do things from other people. And in class, he would be teaching those things. And I was like, no, I never thought about teaching it that way. I'm gonna take that for my students.
Jeremy Lesniak:
So iron sharpens iron. When we talk about the idea of cross training and how, in certain contexts, it makes a lot of sense. That's exactly why.
Andrew Adams:
Okay, so now we can talk to the instructor to stop it.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah, you're focused on the wrong things. Your physical skills are not the greatest indication of your contributions to the world. No. And if you continue to hold on to your physical skills, and your insistence that what you do, in all capacities be better than all of your students, you're going to wake up one day and realize I can never demonstrate any of my physical skills to my students, because my skills have deteriorated for whatever reason, lack of time training, age injury, yep, probably a collection of the three.
But my whole culture in my school, my entire identity as a martial artist, and, frankly, in my observation for people who fit this mold, identity as a human being and place in the world, is dependent on me being better. And so what you end up doing is you hold your students back, because they continue to identify you as better. So you've created an artificial ceiling for the progress of their skills. Or you start to celebrate his legend with these grandiose ideas of what you did back then that nobody really saw.
But you create such a gap between where your best students are and where you were, that they think they will never reach the standing that you had. And we fall further into the trap that you talked about with each generation getting worse. Stop it, your students should progress beyond where you are not all of them. But they all deserve the opportunity.
Don't hold them back. You deserve the ability to progress as an instructor by becoming a more efficient instructor and learning new and better ways to express that information. And if you feel like your students are not getting better, if they're not progressing beyond you, it's probably a result of you needing more skill as an instructor. And what's the number one way to learn how to be a better instructor?
Andrew Adams:
Work with other instructors? In fact, our very first episode we ever did together really was how to be a better instructor.
Jeremy Lesniak:
You know what number that was? Sometimes you remember the numbers. I remember very few of the numbers. Well, those episodes are out there. Maybe we can link it in the show notes. 500 and something I don't think we ruffle any feathers. Because I don't think anybody who fits this is going to admit to being this.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah, that's a good point.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yep. And they probably don't listen to our show.
Andrew Adams:
Anyone whistlekick tends to attract people that…
Jeremy Lesniak:
Would want to continue to get better and yeah, all the ways because they see that is the true value of martial arts. Not in being able to. I'm always better than everyone else.
Andrew Adams:
No, you're not.
Jeremy Lesniak:
The best martial artists I know continued to become better martial artists
Andrew Adams:
And help others to become better.
Jeremy Lesniak:
That's it. Thanks for coming by if you want to support us, Patreon, buy something. Whistlekick.com/family You can buy this t-shirt. Follow us on social media and sign up for our newsletter. have me come teach a seminar at your school. Email us. Andrew@whistlekickmartialarts radio.com, Jeremy@whistlekick.com We have training programs, events, stuff, your topic or guest suggestions. If you do have feedback on this episode, the number one place is a Facebook group, whistlekick Martial Arts Radio behind the scenes. If you don't want to share it publicly or maybe you're not on Facebook or for whatever reason you can email us all of our episodes are at whistlekickmartialartsradio.com.
Andrew Adams:
That's good.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Until next time, train hard smile and have a great day.