Episode 736 - Master Angelo Mattei
Master Angelo Mattei is a Martial Arts practitioner and master instructor at the Level Up Black Belt Academy in Pennsylvania.
As a Master, I know there’s so much more to learn. There’s something to lears as a person, as a martial artist. Whether you’re focused on one style and one direction or whether you’re dabbling. Because I think, you evolve. You evolve within the style, even though you’re not paying attention.
Master Angelo Mattei - Episode 736
Who would’ve thought that having life’s darkest of days can bring you to martial arts? Master Angelo Mattei, got out of his personal battles through the help of martial arts when it enabled him to focus on himself. Presently, he is a master instructor at the LEVEL UP BLACK BELT ACADEMY.
In this episode, Master Angelo Mattei talks about his journey to the martial arts and how he found his passion for Kung Fu and Wing Chun. Listen to learn more! Listen to learn more!
Show Notes
For more information about Master Angelo Mattei, you may check their website at levelupblackbeltacademy.com
Show Transcript
Jeremy Lesniak:
Hello, there everyone Welcome this is whistlekick Martial Arts Radio Episode 736. With today's guest, Mr. Angelo Mattei. I'm Jeremy Lesniak, I'm your host here for the show founder of whistlekick, where everything we do is in support of the traditional martial arts. If that means something to you, if you are a traditional martial artist and you want your efforts and your lifestyle to be supported, well, you should check out whistlekick.com. What are you gonna find over there, you're gonna find links and pages to all the projects that were involved in, there's a whole bunch of stuff, and it's a growing list seriously, if you have not been to whistlekick.com And in the last few months, you are missing out on new things that we're rolling out. One of the things that's been there from day one, but it changes constantly, is our store. The store was okay.com has everything from stuff, you might expect shirts and hats and such to training apparel, to training gear two training programs, as well as super cool, fun, different stuff that you might not imagine. And if you use the code PODCAST15, if you're gonna save 15% on the stuff over there. So go check it out.
You should also check out whistlekickmartialartsradio.com, we bring you two episodes each and every week. And they all get their own pages over there. And that's where we put the transcripts and the links from the stuff that we talked about and photos and videos that the guests send us. If you're just used to checking out the show notes in your podcast app, you are missing out. So please check out that website as well. And why do we do all this? Well, we're looking to connect, educate and entertain the traditional martial artists of the world because we believe that martial artists overall are better people and with training, we become better versions of ourselves.
If you want to support us in our mission, you got lots of things you can do to help out, you could buy something from the store, you could tell people about this show, or maybe even contribute to our Patreon, patreon.com/whistlekick, you can get in as little as two bucks a month. And there are tears that go up from there. At each level, we give you back incredible value. And how are we gauging that value exchange, the number of people who come in and don't leave. Almost everybody who comes in does not leave. And it's great to watch that community grow. We have a bunch of exclusive stuff that happens over at the Patreon and you can find out more about that by visiting that website.
But if you want the whole list of all the things you can do to support whistlekick, go to the family page whistlekick.com/family If your family you've probably already done this, if you're new to the family. Check it out. You won't be sorry. I had a great conversation with Angelo, and you're going to love it. We just hope you do because I had a great time talking to him. And I'm not even going to set this one up for you. We're just going to go into it right. And in the morning. How are you? Good morning. Thanks for doing this.
Angelo Mattei:
Oh, well. Thanks for having me. I was actually taken aback a little bit. I received the email.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Cool. So that means we're doing something right. If you're feeling that way, so go.
Angelo Mattei:
Sounds good.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Before I forget, how do we say your last name?
Angelo Mattei:
Mattei. Okay, it’s easy enough. As easy as just the common American pronunciation.
Jeremy Lesniak:
There we go. Cool. Well, we have a decision at this point, we can just go or we can talk about what we're going to do. Talk to you. You're comfortable. Let's just go. Okay, I like it when we just roll. So overall, we're rolling on all that stuff's gonna be in there. It's the most authentic. Behind the Scenes people are like, man, it's Jeremy's even fixing the lighting in. Absolutely. Because the world is imperfect, right. Like it's messy.
Angelo Mattei:
I was unscripted. It is unscripted.
Jeremy Lesniak:
We do a morning show. And one of the things that came up in the morning show this morning, and I'll I'm curious of your thoughts on this. We oftentimes like to justify things with the sheer numbers of people that do this or that or the other. Oh, well, most people do this. So it must be right or better. But if you look at martial arts and martial artists, most martial artists haven't been doing martial arts for very long. So most martial artists, actually, you know, I'm going to say they suck not in a judgmental way, but just out of our own experience.
Angelo Mattei:
Yeah, it's almost like some of the conversations that I have with other martial artists that started in the 80s, or 70s, and 80s and 90s, I started the 90s. So I kind of started to get into the tail end of their modus operandi in what the martial arts were for them, which are mostly adults. Then you get into the then the kids martial arts started, 80s and 90s, as well.
But yeah, it's an interesting concept, because it has to come from a certain specific perspective, everyone has their own perspective on what it is and I believe that there's value everywhere. So at least that's my approach to the martial arts, there's value in all of it. I'll never knock a style. I don't particularly like heavy ego, or self righteousness and stuff that most of us don't like to deal with on a regular basis.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I don't think anybody likes it. It seems abrasive.
Angelo Mattei:
Especially when we're trying to be open and open minded. And when you hit the door, you basically get hit, and then you're like, “Okay, it's the door”. But it is an interesting concept. Everyone's doing it this way. So that's the way it's happening.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And I think, for a lot of us in the martial arts, and I certainly include myself in that group, when everybody's doing something a certain way, I want to go the other way, and see what's going on over there. Because I'm either going to reinforce this is why so many people do this, or I'm potentially going to find something that people aren't willing to explore. As you said, and I certainly agree, all styles have value, all methodologies have value, they may not be equally valuable, valuable in all situations. But it comes back to why do you train, etc. But I may find something as I'm hunting around in this discarded pile of techniques And go, I kind of liked the way that goes is completely counter to what I was taught, or what I thought made sense. And maybe I always find it, you know what, I'm gonna keep doing it the way I did it.
Angelo Mattei:
Yeah, I love to explore. My whole martial arts career has been off career, if you want to call it a career, but my path has been, you know, unplanned, unscripted. serendipitous, and, you know, I just wound up studying the styles that I did, because of my life situation. Never had to say, well, I want to learn only one style that I really want to learn that I actually seeked out and learned and I did that for a couple of years. And then I took some time off from that because of injuries and then went back to it again later.
Jeremy Lesniak:
What was that? What did you say?
Angelo Mattei:
Wing Chun, Kung Fu?
Jeremy Lesniak:
Okay, and why did you?
Angelo Mattei:
So I started differently. I started off with a taekwondo style. And I was in the middle of it in my early 20s, my mid 23 or 24. I was going through a really rough time in my life. And my younger brother was actually studying with a friend of his. He said, “All you got to do this, man, you got it”. You got to come and try this. I said, “Okay, fine”.
So I showed up and that was hooked instantly, like, what was it? I was focusing on myself. It was just my personal focus. It was just me and myself and my reflection in the mirror. And I had no idea what to expect. So I had no control mechanisms.
I didn't have a say. I didn't have an opinion. I didn't have any database of knowledge that I can compare it to. It's not right. It's wrong. I don't like it. I'm just like, Yes, sir. That was it. Do that. Yes, sir. And then he would say that's fine. I would throw kicks. He'd say, that's fine. No, that's good. Good job. Nothing, nothing like that. That's fine. So I'm like, fine. I just keep doing this. He's like, Yeah, okay, I can do this. I just kept going. And it was a positive focus on me. Instead of time in my life. It was a negative focus on me.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah, there's a bit of an unspoken there. I mean, you're hinting at it now. There's some contrast between that experience, you didn't use this word, but I'm going to self judge about what you were doing. You just had to show up and do what you were told and put in some effort. So what was what was going on around that time outside of any training that created that contrast?
Angelo Mattei:
While I was in a victim paradigm, something happened in my relationship. I couldn't believe it happened to me. I was a nice guy, I'm honest, I'd follow them as a rule follower, I did all the right things. And then, you experience betrayal, and it's flipped your world upside down. So at the time, I was just sitting there wallowing in my own self pity. Why is this happening to me? I couldn't figure out what's wrong with all that kind of negative self-talk. And then when I got into this started with the martial arts, there was no room for that.
There was no way I could do this, I could do that. I did everything. And I excelled at it. And I'm the kind of person that excels very quickly at things, they learn things very quickly. I understand the mechanics of movement and things like that. I've done many things in my life. I'm a jack of all trades, I get good at things very, very quickly. So I got good very, very quickly. And I was like a downhill train. From there, I just wanted more. I just became really, really hungry. I wanted to know more.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And you've always been like that kind of immersive personality.
Angelo Mattei:
Yeah, I got a binge if people call you binge on things. I move on and the multi pod or what's the new term multi [00:11:24-00:11:25]? That's the new term.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Prior to this exploration of Taekwondo, were there physical pursuits that you delved into, that we might be able to see hints of what was to come on board, gymnastics…
Angelo Mattei:
Football, and high school soccer with friends. I grew up playing soccer, and my father was an immigrant from Italy. And so he would put us all in the van. And when we were kids, we bought a soccer ball back there, and we'd all bounce around the back of the van. This is the four seats, you know, we're an event. I remember that in cargo, we went just as he was just driving down the department just playing soccer.
So we played soccer, and it was just more of a social thing than a physical thing. And I didn't realize it at the time, it was actually after the martial arts, and I really start to realize where some of my propensity to understanding patterns and learning movement and habits and observing those things from from a broader perspective, before that, it was just social and just trying to, have as much fun as I could.
Jeremy Lesniak:
But you mentioned your father was an immigrant I, I've found from conversations with past guests that first generations in America, parents tend to have some pretty strong opinions on what their kids are doing, you know, I came to this country for this reason, you should be doing ABC XYZ, if you're not quite often not in every case, but quite often you're wasting what I've done. Was there a strong opinion on your training?
Angelo Mattei:
I think that fear is always there. But you know, fear is a funny thing. You come into this country, not speaking the language, you're young, there's a lot of fear. So a lot of their behavior and their motives are survival based. You know, so and what worked for them isn't necessary for you as the first generation because you're born here. So I'm an American, and I didn't have the same trials and tribulations they did, I didn't have the same challenges they did. So that mentality of survival doesn't isn't isn't beneficial for me.
So you grow, it's a different world. But you still grow within the paradigm of fear. You start to recognize how that impacts your decision making, how it impacts your own expectations of yourself, and I'll tell you why it kept me out of trouble. You know, that the strictness that I grew up with kept me out of trouble, kept me from doing stupid permanent. We did stupid stuff as kids, but nothing stupid permanent. And that's what I tell my kids, you can do stupid stuff. Nothing stupid, permanent.
Jeremy Lesniak:
It's a good line to draw. I like the way you're articulating that.
Angelo Mattei:
It's interesting that there's expectations they have for us. And I don't even know if those expectations were solid. I think there's always the expectation you want your kids to be better off than you know, but if you can't get out of your own space, then you will recognize them when you see it. So that becomes problematic.
Jeremy Lesniak:
So you're all in with taekwondo. You're digging it. At some point, there's some piece that's worth mentioning. What's the next point in time that we should talk about?
Angelo Mattei:
Interesting path? So for two years I studied taekwondo under one gentleman. He was teaching privately at Thomas Jefferson University in Philadelphia. He was a medical student. Yeah, he was with the, I think he trained with the American taekwondo Association. And we just trained with them. We just showed up twice a week and three times a week, sometimes on one thing every once in a while on a weekend train with him. But then he does residency. So he left it for two and a half years, he had to move. So when we find my brother and I and our friend, we find ourselves without a teacher. So what happens? Well, a few months later, my brother's friend came back from Korea. He was stationed in the US military, he was captain of the US karate team. He was the only American on the team.
He fought all over Asia, in the Philippines every day and flew everywhere to compete. Okinawan style taekwondo, and he came back and he's like, let's train. So we started training under him. And that was like, some of the hardest training I've ever experienced. But you know, I didn't see it as difficult at the time, I just felt this is challenging and, and very rewarding. We would come out of there sore, like, I've never been sore. I would literally look down at my feet. And that was too much of a stretch for my hamstrings, we couldn't walk.
Jeremy Lesniak:
So some intense training.
Angelo Mattei:
So much kicking, and we got, we would leave it there. Like, when are we going to do this again, it was that kind of training. It just made it fun. And so four and a half years later, I got my black belt for him. But, his life changes a little bit, so he can't teach as much. I had to keep training. So you know, I'm a junkie now. So I have to find something. So I meet this guy haphazardly, you know, we're just kind of hanging out. I met this guy who's a booking now insurer and roof stylist. He's an instructor and he says, Come to my house. We're trained down my basement. So I show up. There's a bunch of people down there.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Can I just interrupt for a moment and say this, I think martial arts is the only time you can invite someone to your basement. And they assume the best, right? If I invited you to, if you didn't know, I was a martial artist, and I said, Come over, we'll go down in my basement, you would assume the worst. But if I say come over, we'll go down to my basement and train or that's where my mats are. Or that's where the heavy bags are. For some reason, we all automatically assume oh, great.
Angelo Mattei:
Yeah, like a mattress wrapped around a column. Right? Exactly. And that's what it was. It was an unfinished basement. And it was just a big open space. And so I started trying to knock on our insurance room. And I'll tell you, my hands got good, because nothing makes your hands better than getting hit in the face repeatedly. You know, when you start getting punched from a close distance, and I didn't like it at first, but then you know, I knew something happened. When I actually started to enjoy it. Then I really started to get good with the hands and so, so that the path I had no idea what the path was going to be.
I just just kind of followed what was in front of me, you know, it showed up for me. So I've trained in Okinawa shortened route and like my black belt in Taekwondo, and I kept trying to talk about short rules until he blew his shoulder up and had to have surgery and he couldn't teach. So here I am, okay. Now, I was an auto mechanic at the time I hurt my back. So I couldn't train anymore. Leg neuropathy in my leg was but it was a bad herniation. And I was I was really bummed out I was like, I got the train I have to do something I can't not I can't just lay around
Jeremy Lesniak:
You're essentially using the term junkie before you're essentially addicted. Yeah, to train.
Angelo Mattei:
And I was a karate hit. I mean, I just wanted to learn. And I really wasn't didn't really care. I haven't fixed any particular style. I wasn't loyal to any particular style. I just wanted to learn about the martial arts and different philosophies. So I started studying Tai Chi on my own and started studying Tai Chi, because that was the only thing I could do was stand up straight and do more movements.
And so I did that for years. And then finally hooked up with an instructor who made little changes. And at this point, I was so aware of my body that any little change they made, I felt immediately so I think this is awesome. The internal versus external martial arts. And then in that period of time I started studying Wing Chun, Kung Fu, I wanted to learn that philosophy
Jeremy Lesniak:
Assume your back was getting better.
Angelo Mattei:
Yeah, they didn't do any kicks above the waist. I was like, I could do that. Because I couldn't kick over my head anymore. So I kind of liked that philosophy, straight up solid structure, spine straight. I was like, that's perfect for me. So it's very similar in terms of structure with Tai Chi and becoming aware of upper body, lower body, that kind of thing. And then that school closed at some point so you It seems like every store that I got into at some point would end. And I found myself kind of looking around like, you know, hungry for more what's next. I had no idea what would be next. And then things would progress there, meet up with the Tai Chi instructor who also taught and that kind of stuff and weapons training, and I will do seminars, whatever I can get a hold of, and I still love to do seminars, I still love to learn.
And then at one point, I got involved with an outfit with a franchise opportunity for me. I wanted to get into a business and I needed to think of the martial arts business. So I got into that. And then that changed and turned over. And then I hooked up with my instructor, and he unfortunately passed away last year. So I gotta find myself, like, every time I teach her that I'm with, something happens. And I'm just like, but that's just my path. It's just the way of the firm believer and how you do anything, is how you do everything. And it just seems to show up that way for me.
Jeremy Lesniak:
So, I'm curious, because there's, we can certainly easily articulate the downside of being with someone and only getting them for a few years, right, like, you're not going as far as deep, you're certainly not exhausting what they have to offer you. But at the same time, it forces you to look elsewhere. You know, and it's not that you necessarily had to go to completely different martial arts, but at the very least, you're forced into having a different instructor if you're going to remain.
One of the subjects that comes up on the show, in our conversations from time to time is the notion of mastery versus diversity. And you almost didn't have a choice, you were thrown into diversity. And now that you've been training a while. And if you look back on those early years, where it's, you know, this cadence of a few years here and there with different instructors, how do you look at that? Do you see that in a positive light? Do you wish it had gone differently?
Angelo Mattei:
Well, I certainly don't wish it had gone differently, I really came to appreciate my path. There's something to say about having, you know, having a goal. So if you have a goal, and you want to become a master at a certain style, there's something to say for that, because it takes a lot of dedication, and you're going to you're going to experience teachers coming and going, if you're in a school, and they have a second teacher and next thing, they're off to college or they get a job and they get a move, or they get married or life happens to people. If you're lucky enough to have the Grandmaster at your location, if it's one of those outfits were the grandmasters close by, and you could train under them, it's a good thing, you're lucky to have the lengthy path, and you could master that one style, and you're single stylist and that's that's beautiful thing, because, you've mastered it you've gotten to mastery sense of mastery.
I think everybody's so different. I think when I started off, I had no idea. Like, I had no idea that I was gonna study multiple styles, I was like, I love this, I'm gonna keep doing this. And it just so happens that it happened the way it was, if I was in a school, with a federation, and an organization, where the organization and the Federation would bring people in to cover or to continue. That's a different environment, right. And you could keep going to that school and keep going and learn that way. That wasn't my path. That wasn't what showed up for me. Only sense of math, knowing mastery I have now as on a master level and Tang Soo Do. And I've been over 12 years now. I've been teaching it and, you know, my mastery under the [00:23:48-00:23:50]
And even that's like a submaster. But I know there's so much more to learn. So, there's something to learn. As a person, you know, and as a stylist, and as a martial artist, there's always going to be something to learn whether you're focused in one direction than one style, or whether you're, you know, dabbling, because I think you evolve, not, not so much the style evolves around you, you evolve within styles, you evolve within yourself. And even if you're not paying attention, I just think kids are paying attention at some point, it's going to show up for them. Maybe it's not important to them now, but at some point it will.
So it's kind of hard to say, I don't regret the only thing I have in the back of my mind is like why do I keep losing teachers. I don't want to get it. Or I was like, I don't know what that's about but you know, I've had the privilege of studying under some really great people even though I study idoe as well and part of [0:24:51-00:24:53] under a grandmaster [00:24:55-00:24:56]. Love the guy you know, he puts his hands on you and I appreciate it when they call me up to demonstrate that they come up here and I'm like, “Oh, good. You know, because I, you know you at this level, you appreciate that kind of energy, you appreciate the subtlety and what they do and how powerful it is. So the kids are like “Oh, no, he's gonna pick me”.
No, no, no, he's gonna take, I want him to pick me. So you just get a different level of appreciation at some point. Because it's interesting. They're different at the beginning towards the middle, they start to merge, you can see who borrowed what, from where. And then you start to see how they evolved individually and separately as styles. But it all comes down to a lot of the same stuff, your body only moves so many ways. Now, it's just a matter of, you know, what do you want? What do you want? So it's an amazing holistic path to self mastery. That's how I look at it.
Jeremy Lesniak:
How did you end up with Tang Soo Do? Oh, I want to just remind the audience, you said the only martial art that you sought out was Wing Chun. So somehow this fell in your lap too.
Angelo Mattei:
I had a desire to learn Wing Chun, like I wanted to learn Wing Chun, I had a friend who studied it. And we spoke about it. And he said a few things. And I was like, oh, that sounds really awesome. Like I was, you know, how do you mean that he would do certain things with his hands? And I'm like, What are you doing? Like, I had no concept of what was in his mind. And you can't you can't conceptualize you, I had no point of reference for what he was doing. Only once you start to learn it, then you really start to understand what it is. And even to the length of which I studied, it is nothing compared to those who have been in for 10 years, 12 years, 15 years. And I know that I respect what I really do. I'm humbled by the fact that I don't know, I don't know, a lot of stuff. So, that was the only style that I really, really wanted to learn because of the conversation that I had with a friend of mine. But I got a Tang Soo Do when I got involved with this franchise opportunity.
So you know, getting into a martial arts school franchise opportunity. And it was nothing like I thought it would be, you know, you have this concept of the schools, you know, that they just run kids through. And then I watched what the looks on these kids' faces. And I looked at what the program could offer these kids, young kids. And I was blown away, I was really amazed that some of the value was that they were a little older, of course, the value of what the staff teaches young kids that the kids aren't going to get anywhere else. Find the stuff that you learned in the martial arts that you don't learn anywhere else.
So I got into it as a tongue pseudo school. So I can't go in with my first degree in taekwondo, similar, you know, similar and technique is Korean style, you know, one of the sports wants to be the traditional style. And, you know, I just made it up. And it was, you know, again, you know, when you're hungry, we eat. So, I just like, there was a lot to learn that there's a lot I needed to catch up on and to, in order to get to a certain rank and to a certain position in order to be able to teach. And then I had to learn their methodologies and things like that. That was just what I was doing. I had so much time for it that I met my instructor nine years ago. And we clicked, we had very similar mindset in, in martial arts in training and teaching, learning, that kind of thing that we just connected. And the rest of what they say is history. I find myself here. Still teaching tongues, though.
Jeremy Lesniak:
So 30 years in, right, do that math, right. 30 years? 30 something years?
Angelo Mattei:
Yeah. Three plus years in, you're still going? Are you as passionate, less passionate, more passionate, than you in your 20s? About your training?
Jeremy Lesniak:
That's interesting. That's a good question. My passion is still there. My body on the other hand, 56. I'm scheduled for surgery on Friday, my left knee is an issue in my left knee, they're gonna, they're gonna clean it up. And then I can hopefully get back to running and my other physical stuff that I do to stay in shape, and teaching and training as well. But yeah, so my passion is still there. I still want to learn. But I find myself in a very similar situation that I've done all along. And that is, I don't have a teacher right now. Because my teacher unfortunately passed away last year. And so what I'm, who am I gonna learn from and what am I going to learn? So I said, I want to keep teaching, but I'm going to do as many seminars, there's seminars, there's people I want to work with.
As people, you read it back in the car. I want to spend an hour a weekend with this guy who I want to learn this system or I want to learn this weapon or I want to. So I'm still very much hungry for information for now, but I still want to be taught, I still need, my soul needs to be fed with new concepts and new information or extensions of what I believe I know or what I've come to understand. So the passion is very much still there. Already, it gets kind of limited at this point, because, you know, COVID comes around, and people aren't training outside or in their basements anymore, or they're the little schools that were basically just barely getting paid their bills. And you're right, they have to sell it on.
So all the people that don't these people that I told you that I mentioned that I wanted to go train with for a weekend here, they don't do it anymore, they're just starting to get back into it, because things are opening up again. So it's, you know, so it's just so it goes back to, you know, I go back to the basics, I just do my own form work, I go over my forms. I tried to look at where the forms came from, you know, how did you know this wasn't originally a Japanese form? Or an Okinawan form? How do they do it? You know, how did it evolve to how we're doing it, because I don't believe there's any really right way, it's just the way you were taught, you just do it the way you were taught.
So I want to know three, four different ways to do it. So I feel like I can speak intelligently about it. And then when you go to do Bunkai, you got to break it apart, you have a different you have a little bit there's there's more spices in the soup, so to speak, it just makes it a little bit more a little more savory, you can get to speak a little bit more different perspectives. And I think that's valuable, because not only do you agree, but it also enables you to develop different languages, because everybody understands English differently. If you've taught, you know, you can say the same thing to 30 kids and one kid will get it and the rest of them will look at you look here, you know, and then you have to change how you say what you say, when you say it.
Jeremy Lesniak:
With your background in other arts, you came into Tang Soo Do with some understanding that, in my experience, is an asset and a liability. You have an understanding of how to do some things, but sometimes, you know whether it's a form that's painfully similar, but not the same, or you know, making small modifications to stances or to punch rotation or whatever it might be. It can become frustrating. Did you have any elements like that where you had to unlearn or you know, colocate in your brain? Certain things?
Angelo Mattei:
Yeah, there's always that there's this, for me, it was when, earlier on, I would learn things, and I never really understood why, I've learned them, because that's the way I was taught. And that's what I do. And if I couldn't get it up, you get to the point, at some point, you get to the point where, if you can explain why it's done, then you're basically just repeating it. So early stage training, if you copy your instructor.
Right, if you watch any group of students, they're gonna kick the way their instructor kicks, or they're gonna try to anyway. So you just do that. And then at some point, you start to understand why and and then, you know, the clicks, forms, do you, you kind of transcend the form, and you get into this place where you, you're, you're expressing the idea, and instead of just copying a technique. So I think the trouble gets people into trouble when they lock into a technique, but they don't know why. They just do it, because that's the way I was taught.
Jeremy Lesniak:
That's the best way.
Angelo Mattei:
Well, that's the way it's been done for 1000s of years. Well, you get back to your original comment, you know, that's the way everybody's doing it now. So that's just the way you do it. So it does require a certain amount of humility to be able to say, well, you know, maybe I should just change this. But I love learning new things, even things that I already know. I like learning new perspectives. And I want to know your perspective. So I'm an artist, I've been an artist, I had a degree in art. And I discovered it when I was, you know, at a museum and my assignment was I had to pick up a piece of abstract art and pick an aspect of it and draw it. And as I walked around this room, it was in the middle of the room I saw everybody was looking at different things, and whatever they were drawing I saw in every different perspective. So now this piece that I'm looking at has an entirely new view to me, I kind of see all those different perspectives or as many as I was able to witness. So that process then gets translated to martial law. So when I hit later on, I was like, why do you do it this way?
Show me, I've been learning, I want to know. And then I want to experience, I want to feel it, you know, and then I want to apply it, oh, you rotate your punch, the moment of contact for contact, they have to contact you. So let's experiment. Let's play. So I'm very much an experimenter. And so I'm not fixed. So anyway, you throw a punch, do you turn it? Do you hit it? You know, do you come down on it? Is it an angle than when in Jeet Kune Do? Is it an angle? I don't care. For me, it comes down to: does it work? Will it work? So even when I teach my students I'm like, that's a low, they call it low block, okay, we'll call it low block is slow, blah, and you're performing it, like you're just copying us. And now you gotta make it work, you have to pretend you're actually blocking something that's going to hurt you, or you're intercepting something or damaging something that's going to hurt you.
And until they get that concept, they're just copying. And then you start to see the expression of that technique when they start to make it work. So you know, I don't want to, I don't want to go off on too many tangents. But no, tangents are good. So you know, I enjoy exploration. I enjoy speaking with people who want to explore. At the same time, I enjoy people who don't want to explore that they're so affixed to what they want, they think it is the best way to do it. I want to know, like, Okay, show me because it's just a, it's to me, it's just an extension, a little bit further down that path of mastery that they firmly believe in, that's fine, that's great. I want to experience that too. I don't have to adopt it. I don't have to agree with it. I don't have to live my life like that. But there's some information in there that might be valuable to me. Certainly, for the sake of information, like just bring it, you know, it's a beautiful thing. There's so much to learn. It's endless. It's infinite. So I don't like personal boundaries, but I don't like personal boundaries, if that makes sense.
Jeremy Lesniak:
As someone who is exactly the same in that respect, I fully understand.
Angelo Mattei:
When I say my hypocrisy knows no bounds.
Jeremy Lesniak:
So as someone with some formalized education in art, you know, one of the things that I've found myself saying time and again, is if you break down the term martial art, art is the noun. And I think quite often we miss that which we focus on. What to me is the secondary element, the martial art fact that it's combative. So if you think about your formal education in art, and the things that you learned and enjoyed, how does that inform or possibly alter the way you see practice teach martial art? Does it? Or does it? Maybe it doesn't?
Angelo Mattei:
No, absolutely does not. So I'm a firm believer in the concept of how you do anything is how you do everything. I try to teach that to my show those concepts to my kids. And even though my kids, my students, even even if they don't get it right away, at some point, it's going to click with them. So the way I see anything is it enabled it afforded me the opportunity to, or affords me the opportunity to develop multiple approaches to one concept, which then gives me multiple languages to speak to a student. So once I learn how they digest the information, I can then teach them in a way that's more efficient.
So you see a lot of lot of students with confusion on their faces, they're just like, oh, what am I doing, I'm just going, okay, I'm gonna do it, you know, there's not as much nearly hunger until they until they show up, because they want to be there as opposed to mom dropping them off. So, you know, it, I think it's an asset to be able to understand different perspectives, because then it gives you flexibility gives you, just like in any martial law, and every situation is different, it's a dynamic, ever changing, you never know what you're going to need to pull out to defend yourself. So, you know, there's, there's definitely something to say about, you know, the value in a fixed mindset. And then, for me, I can't stay fixed.
My mind just keeps asking too many questions. Right? It's just like, well, what if this happens, you know, I'm like, the little students and well, what happens if someone does this? And what happens? Does that when you're trying to show it's like a tiny little aspect of the technique. So there was definite value in that artistic approach to how many different ways can I express or talk about, you know, the road rotating the rotating motion, you know? So I think it was definitely an asset for me. I'm also very much into hypnosis and how the subconscious mind works. So I developed languages and you know, and I think that's what just attributes to my ability to teach students and to reach students. Students just think differently than the rest of the students.
Jeremy Lesniak:
If I was to put a title on this episode, we wouldn't do that. But if I was, I would be thinking about words that are quite, you know, involve the word question, like something about question or asking, you know, because that's what seems to be a recurring theme. Here's you're asking questions, and what we just heard, you're asking questions even of yourself. What I find, for those who continue to question, is that there are moments where you have to take a big step back that you receive an answer that makes you go, Oh, I've been doing that wrong, or that doesn't line up with this other thing that I believe. And you're, you're smiling, there's a little bit of a chuckle there. So I suspect you're, I'm right, that you've had at least one of those. But I'm wondering if you might, even though I suspect, as they've been for me for you, they're probably quite personal. Would you mind telling us about one of those?
Angelo Mattei:
Somewhat of an experience they may have had where I had to take a step back and get blown away?
Jeremy Lesniak:
Let's call it let's call it either an epiphany, or, your world was rattled a little bit. In the martial arts world. Yeah. Yeah. For example, I've had a couple of them in transitioning instructors, as they said, Okay, well, you're doing this, why are you doing this this way? And, you know, early on in my martial arts career might have been well, that's what I was taught. More recently, it's been well, because of, you know, this Saturday, the other you know, I generally have an answer. Okay, we'll try it this way.
And I don't know, this way makes more sense, even for me because of, and such a big realization that it makes me go back and work through techniques and forums and my language within the martial arts, it's almost like realizing you were spelling certain fundamental words wrong. And now that you know how to spell them properly, or more accurately to yourself, you're going back through all your diaries and saying, I'm going to change all this. Spellcheck?
Angelo Mattei:
Yeah, I follow you. Yeah. It's interesting, because you use the word. My philosophy in life is to try it on. See if I can have a blog I started years ago, and I haven't really been doing much with it. And I plan on doing some more later, let's try it on. Because I don't know what's gonna work for you. You don't know what's gonna work for you. But if I have an opportunity to show you three or four different ways that something could be done, as a more seasoned martial artist, I think is better as a student, it just gets really confusing.
So you show them one way you let them develop a sense of confidence with what they're doing, that you have them apply it. And when they struggle with the application of it, there's your opportunity for an aha moment for them. So that you could then it becomes a better teaching. So I've had plenty of aha moments, especially when I hooked up with my instructor. There was Marvel, because he, you know, this guy was the one of the best martial arts I've ever had the privilege of working with. And he would just show me things and talk to me about things that they would do in tuxedo and forms.
And in breaking down those forms that I had no concept of, like, there was no place in my mind, never thought of it. I never thought that this is what this could be. And that kind of broke another level of wax covering my martial arts. What I thought I knew, right, so you break that seal, and then you have a whole new world of it's now now I started questioning everything. I started questioning every single technique that I've ever learned, what could be a hidden meaning in this, what could be a hidden meaning in that. And that became not my area of exploration. And, you know, Indiana Jones, my theme song in my head, I want to learn, show me I want to discover as much as I can.
And then once I do, excuse me, I want to be able to play with it. You know and adopt what is in alignment with your philosophy and with your values and you kind of do this nebulous thing, discard what doesn't work, but understand that as a place for someone somewhere, maybe not for you in this moment. But, as you get older things change, you know, those high kicks to the head don't count as much when you're 56/ You know, when you're older. So you've got to learn some hands, you know, so, you know, there's been plenty of aha moments going on. I kind of look forward to it and never know when they're going to show up, but I'm always open to them. I'm always looking forward to it. You know, that's why I want to learn from as many people as I can. I want to learn too. But starting with different approaches, even if it's solid or fixed, because there's I see, I think there's value in it. For me anyway.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Have you ever felt yourself being resistant to that?
Angelo Mattei:
But most of it's a personal resistance to the instructor and not necessarily to the material. And it's hard to translate the two. Because if you don't, if you think you're the instructor that you know, not, these are instructors that I'm going to seminars and things like that, and I'll meet somebody in there, you see, you have someone who's very, very, and it's an interesting concept of cocky and confident, people appear cocky, if they exhibit a level of confidence you're not familiar with doesn't mean they're cocky, it just means that they're that confident.
So, you know, I keep reminding myself, this is not you know, but some of them are very. I can't even think of the word that because I don't even go into the area anymore. But they're so fixed in there in what they know that it's their way or the highway. And to me, that's just to me, I find it a little bit abrasive. It's like, okay, let's just show me. So once I get past that, then I'm a little more open to the information that comes from them. So my resistance is normally with that presenter, and not necessarily what the material is, because I love the material.
Jeremy Lesniak:
it's just hard to separate that. I suspect, you know, you've had enough instructors, you've probably had at least one I've had several, including people that I went to train with regularly, that I just didn't like. I didn't like them as a person, they just there was something about them that rubbed me the wrong way. And it was an interesting challenge, to remain open enough to learn what they had to teach me.
Even if it wasn't a lot. Everybody's got something to teach. I think we all understand that even if what we're learning from someone is how not to do something correctly, like a first day white belt can teach you a lot about how the body moves that you didn't expect, and also how terrible you are at teaching certain techniques.
How did you fall down? We were punching while you told me to turn? Well, I didn't tell you. You're right. It's on me. And that, that resistance, that ability to separate? You know, here's that person versus the body of knowledge. And I think it's such an interesting challenge that so few of us really explore because who wants to spend time with people we don't like?
Angelo Mattei:
So I had an interesting experience years ago. Once I moved out to where I live now. I again, I was so hungry, and I needed to feed my soul. So I found someone close by that was teaching Kali. And I always wanted to learn to stick with finding always wanting to learn. So I went there, and I paid for the month. And I spent the first class with this guy and the way he was teaching and what things that he was saying just really, at the time totally rubbed me the wrong way. This was prior to Tag Soo Do. So it was after Taekwondo, very much a taekwondo stylist. And I was learning all these other things. And I finally got settled to the school nearby which is 15 minutes away. It's great. And the way he was talking, I never went back.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Can you say more?
Angelo Mattei:
So he would say it's, you know, they would say things like, all you need is this, he would hold a stick in his hand. You don't need to do all those knuckle push ups, like in Taekwondo and all those hotcakes, and he was just really knocking the style. And he had a room full of people. I know what taekwondo styles are. I could watch the way they stretch. And I talked to a few of them. They were like Taekwondo. So I'm gonna think it's not really necessary for you to not use this style. Just show me just show me what's good about the stick, you know, show me about what's good about the style.
And I learn but that really kind of rubbed me the wrong way. And so you're talking about, like, really any regrets. That was like one regret that I had. And I don't look at it as a regret anymore. I just look at it as a lesson that I changed once I realized that I had an opportunity that whole month to learn something from this guy, even though he had this, you know, this arrogant perspective about his thoughts. So I lost out because of that limitation that I had.
So I didn't like the abrasiveness. I liked the arrogance. So I was like, I'm not gonna, I don't want to. The truth is I could have learned a great deal. I could have learned a lot. And had I just been a little, you know, I just put that aside. You know, we talked about that earlier. You were putting aside it's hard to put aside. I think once you realize once I realized that I was able to then start putting it aside because I realized like, I really could have learned something there. Oftentimes gonna go by, you're never going to get it back.
So, you know, I don't care. Now, at this point, I don't really care if you're arrogant. And if you want to be if you want to tell me that this is the best way, only way in the world to do something, okay? You know, let's go, I'm gonna learn, you know, I get to do what I want with that information, you know, it's my space, my headspace, it's my style, it's my path. And that's a beautiful thing. It really is those people that you don't like, I've come to learn that the people that that are not, you know, in alignment with your ideals in your in your values, you can learn something from you know, so it's like outside your comfort zone, go there, because that's where you're going to probably learn something really valuable. And it's interesting how it kind of flips around, you know, everybody avoids the uncomfortable. At some point your life stops going towards the uncomfortable because you know, there's value in it.
Jeremy Lesniak:
You know, it's interesting to hear you're painting this picture of this, this instructor teaching colleague. If there were that many taekwondo students in the class, it makes me wonder. Was he arrogant? Or was he afraid? Was he nervous that all these people have this body of knowledge that he didn't he didn't want to look foolish? Yeah, I've had an experience where you start training with someone who knows you have prior experience, and it makes you likely to experience this where it makes them nervous.
You can tell that they're afraid that you know things they don't, it's easy. When you have somebody walk in with no training, it's really hard to look foolish in front of them. You can make up anything and say anything. If you say it confidently, they will leave you. And that is why sadly, there are schools who will not teach people who have prior knowledge. You know, they're rare, but they do exist.
Angelo Mattei:
I agree.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And yet, I've been on the other side, I've taught people who have tremendous amounts of knowledge. I've taught my own instructors about nerve wracking.
Angelo Mattei:
Yeah. And I know what they call impostor syndrome, where you think what you know isn't enough, you know, and that happens all the time. And then I think you need to go through it as an instructor. And I think it's just an opportunity to practice a little humility. So I have, I meet with other stylists, I have friends who are in gochugaru, I have friends who do the Okinawan styles, and I love the style I've studied, okay, now ensuring room for two and a half years. I love philosophy, I love that work.
I can't speak that intelligently about it when I'm around Filipino, fourth, and fifth. I'm not teaching them anything. But at that level, though, I think they all have the same mentality as, you know, this is where they're at, and they still learn from their students. They might learn technique from their students, but they learn different things.
So yeah, I think it's tough to teach other other styles, there's a certain level of apprehension. And maybe that was the case for him, maybe. And, you know, my lesson in that was, you know, ignore it. And go for and reach in and grab what you can and assimilate what you can and, you know, stay humble.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Now, you've mentioned a couple times, you've stepped into this role as Tang Suoo Do instructor. But prior to that you hadn't talked about being an instructor. So it was really your first experience sharing that knowledge back with students.
Angelo Mattei:
I studied Tai Chi, tai chi for a long time. So I started instructing Tai Chi, okay, I started doing my own classes in South Philadelphia. And, you know, for as long as I could, as long as I had a space available, I still practiced on my own. So I had some teaching experience prior to teaching Tong sudo and other things to him, and I do many, many things.
So even, you know, I just love explaining and sharing my knowledge with someone who wants to learn. So whether it's fixing a carburetor, or you know, building a wall or painting or you know, whatever it is, I enjoy that dialogue, that interaction. So, the martial arts just just fell into place. It fell into my lap, I had no plans for it. It's just the way it showed up for me and my path and I just kind of went there.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Could it have gone any differently? When you look back,
Angelo Mattei:
The few times that I did intervene, I've kind of released the regret, but I learned it's like, okay, you know, the resistance is resistance is resistance. So, I think it's up to you to learn from just like in the martial arts, when you put hands on somebody, when you get hands you've learned you get to learn what their resistance is and what their intentions are. You get to read it, and you get to work with it and play with it and understand it. You know, and then use it to your benefit, you know, so. So it's much like how you do anything is how you do everything. Now the martial arts I looked at as, like I said before, it's a comprehensive path to self mastery.
Jeremy Lesniak:
For example, let's pretend that for some reason, I'm asking you for contact information for a few of your students, and I'm going to ask them about you, you know, have kind of like many interviews with each of them about you, what would you hope they would be saying.
Angelo Mattei:
I had a few students come back to me over time, who have thanked me for some of the stuff that I taught them, and some of the stuff that I that they learned, let's just say what they learned, not necessarily what I taught them. For them at that particular time in their lives was extremely valuable. And that, to me, was heartwarming, that, to me, was the reason why I do what I do I teach, you know, not just because I'm a junkie.
So, you know, I would hope that, you know, my students would say that they learned a lot more about themselves, they learn more about themselves, they learned that there are no real limitations, other than the ones you put on yourself. And that every experience you have is an opportunity to learn more about yourself, the world, and your ability to create your life as you go, you know, so it's really not necessarily have to do with martial arts, but those inherent values that you get the not too many people talk about, people talk about discipline and confidence, and, you know, all the all the advertising language used for your school, but, you know, it's so much deeper than that, I think.
So, I would hope that my students develop a stronger sense of self that they can know, that they realize that, anything that they face, they can handle, whatever it is. So that's really what it comes down to for me.
Jeremy Lesniak:
You mentioned South Philly, is that where you are still?
Angelo Mattei:
No, I'm actually actually out in Delaware County, and outside of Pennsylvania, outside of Philadelphia. But I grew up in South Philadelphia,
Jeremy Lesniak:
if people want to get a hold of you is their website, social media, anything like that, you can?
Angelo Mattei:
Well, I took a few months off of teaching from a teaching level of Black Belt Academy in Newtown square. And part of the [00:57:47-00:57:53] was started by the Grandmaster, Louis Marvel. That Federation, interestingly enough, is still growing. Schools are still joining up with the Federation on its own. It's a very interesting thing that's happening because they're basically governing themselves.
They're all working with each other to those who volunteered to do certificates, whose logo and it really just an amazing thing to watch these martial artists come together, and wanting to develop a sense of community for themselves. Beautiful, loving family. Love that right? Just amazing. Really sit back, this is the most amazing thing. That's how it should be out, right? There's not one person saying this is how it's gonna be. Everyone's saying, I like that. I liked it. Let's try and run with it. Let's see. Again, we'll try it on guy, you know, try it on if it works and is a beautiful thing.
So beautiful things happen when people come together, as they say. See, I teach at level a black belt Academy.
I was doing prior to COVID to self defense classes a year at the Haverford Community Environmental Center, the crack, community recreation and environmental settlement in Haverford township. I'll teach with a local library. I'll do self defense classes for high school students, a couple times a year, you know, this was all prior to COVID. Things have changed as we're getting better. We're starting to get back into that now.
Jeremy Lesniak:
It sounds like to paraphrase the George Carlin piece that less than 5% are going to get there's a gym, you'll be there is what I'm hearing if there's a place for you to teach, you'll teach.
Angelo Mattei:
I'm actually honored when someone asks me to teach. So if someone says, Oh, I hear you teach martial arts and you know, we had, my wife is an avid runner. She runs with a local running group here. And sometimes a woman who was out at 5:30 in the morning had an incident. And it wasn't a terribly bad incident, but it was enough that scared her. And for me, that's enough. And they said, Would you be interested in putting those sets of baskets in, so let's do it now. Let's get it right now. I'm available with you.
Let me know when you want to meet up and we'll do it. Find me a place we'll show up but we'll do it. Couldn't get everybody together. So I said, Well, you know, I'm going to teach more at the self defense class at level up for a few weeks while they're on vacation. So you're welcome to come while I'm teaching or not go over some of the stuff that I talked about in my self defense program. So yeah, so you know, I'm on Facebook, Angela metate, you know, Angelo, Team Mattei. I teach at a Black Belt Academy. So they could they could reach out to that school if they wanted to,
Jeremy Lesniak:
They could find you, you're not hiding. That's what I'm hearing.
Angelo Mattei:
I'm not I'm not hiding. No, not at all. I'm not I'm not a recluse. I like to be out there. As you know, I like teaching, teaching adults. Because the language is there's a greater vocabulary, you know, then then with children or but I like teaching kids to. But yeah, I'm around. And I'm still very much into it. Still looking for the next seminar. I'm t-shirt on, because, you know, I love what the guy does, he travels the country. And even if it's one day, I'll go there, and get to meet some great people, and people are just as hungry as I am. That's a beautiful thing, too. Couldn't agree more?
Jeremy Lesniak:
Well, this takes us more or less to the end. So what are you gonna do? Do you want to tell the audience? You know, how do you want to leave this with them?
Angelo Mattei:
So for animals, something that I've learned, I use this phrase all the time with students. So it's just kind of a joke, because I'm Italian. And we like food, and we like to feed people. Right?
Jeremy Lesniak:
So but times against their will, I've been told,
Angelo Mattei:
Well, this is where the phrase comes from, right. So I say hungry students are going to eat. And you're either going to eat, or you're going to leave with a dirty shirt. Because you're going to get fed when you come to the class. So the hungry students will gobble it up, they'll eat the leaf full digest, they'll come back wanting more, and the kids that really don't want to be there, you're gonna get fed to me, you're just going to wear most of it on your shirt. So it's just like, imagine a bowl of pasta in front of you. And you're either going to eat it as I'm feeding you, or you're just going to fall over. So hungry students always want to eat.
But either way, you're getting fed when you come into school. So from a student perspective, go in and eat as much as you can. Because you know, those lessons don't come around too often. There's something beautiful in each and every lesson. The teachers are human beings, they have good days, bad days, they have stuff that they want to teach stuff that they that they forget, or they're or they're kind of like me where it's, you have an idea, but you just kind of go with what the class brings, you know who's there.
And you kind of go with the flow. So for students and teachers it comes down to I think, as a teacher, I'm by no means an expert teacher, but I've been teaching long enough tonight. And that is a passion of mine. So it's like, you know, again, you're the one who's feeding, you know, and like the USA, you can't, you can't, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink. And you never know what a student that's going to absorb. So for young teachers out there, you're just starting, you have this, your ideology around you and you want to teach certain things and you're excited and you're going by processes and you're trying to make it fun. And get comfortable with the discomfort that a student might need to experience when they're learning something. Like don't, don't try to soften it up like that, that struggle is valuable. The struggle is really, really important.
And even for parents, let your kids struggle, let them cry, let them be upset, it's okay, let them keep going. You know, cry, crawl, walk, whatever, but just keep moving forward. So I think a lot of that in the schools today says, when we talk about, everyone's doing a certain way, that's nice, and it's fun. He's gonna cry, let him cry. It's okay, when you're done, let's go. Let's do it again. Until you figure it out. And there's, you're never gonna get that anywhere else like that perfect, beautiful opportunity to teach something to someone through struggle. You know, learn how not to struggle. So how you do anything is how you do everything.
Jeremy Lesniak:
So if you couldn't tell, I had a great time talking to Angelo just having such a conversation. Right? Like, if you guys have been around a while, you know, I love what I do. And I love what I do, because the people that I get to talk to are the same but different each and every week. And that's a lot of fun. And here we are another episode that is the same. Because we're talking to another person who's really passionate about martial arts. And it's different because the journey is different. The experience is different. What comes out of it is different. And that's why I don't get bored doing what I do. And I'm sure that's why you don't get bored listening. Angelo, thanks for coming on the show really, really had a lot of fun and hope we get to talk again.
Hey, listeners, go check out the show notes. whistlekickmartialartsradio.com if you sign up for the newsletter while you're over there, and hey, if you loved this episode, support us, help us out, help us grow. Help us cover our expenses. Pick something up at the store, tell people about what's going on, join the Patreon, buy a book, anything you're willing to do to help out. We appreciate it. Want me to come to your school teacher seminar. We can do that too. You want to do that or you have feedback for the show. Email me Jeremy@whistlekick.com or social media @whistlekick. You're going to find this everywhere. And that's it. Until next time, train hard, smile and have a great day.