Episode 723 - Forms - Why Are They Different and the Same
In this episode, Jeremy and co-host Andrew Adams take on Forms - Why Are They Different and the Same.
Forms - Why Are They Different and the Same - Episode 723
Are you wondering why some martial arts styles have different names but similar forms? What made them similar and different at the same time? In this episode, Jeremy and co-host Andrew Adams take on Forms - Why Are They Different and the Same.
After listening to the episode, it would be exciting for us to know your thoughts about it. Don’t forget to drop them in the comment section below!
Show Transcript
You can read the transcript below.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Hey what's happening everybody, welcome. This is whistlekick Martial Arts Radio. Today Andrew and I are going to talk about forms. Why are they the same and different, when they are both the same and different. And it's a really confusing title image that only makes sense in hindsight. So if you stick around, you will understand what I'm talking about. And it's something that most of you have probably at least been aware of, if not experienced, there'll be a good conversation. If you are new to what we do, you should go to whistlekick.com This place, you're gonna find all the stuff that we're working on all the different projects and products, including our store, that's where we keep the products that make sense store products, right. And over there, you're gonna find everything from apparel, we've got shirts on, there's a half you've got training programs, that you've got events, signups, all kinds of cool stuff there.
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Okay, maybe share this episode with a friend who really digs forums or like, you know, I think you should check out this episode, these guys have some interesting stuff to say. You could also consider checking out our family page whistle kick.com/family. It's not like it's a family friendly version of what we do. Because everything we do is family friendly. It is instead a complete list of all the things you can do to support us from the paid to the free, the involved to the quick. And we also give you some bonus behind the scenes sort of content over there that you won't find anywhere else. It's kind of like a similar Patreon that you don't have to pay any money to get into forms. So we both love forms.
Andrew Adams:
I very much love forms.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And I'm sure that there are people out there who are going to watch this episode. And they're at this point, they're trying to decide if they're going to want to check out the rest of this episode, because maybe forms are not something they're as passionate about. As you and I. That could be. What we're going to talk about today isn't form specific. It is about the overlap of the relationships between different martial arts. And there might be a little bit of a history lesson here to history. Kind of fun. Yeah, we've had a number of guests who have espoused the importance of martial arts history. The one that comes to mind most notably on [00:02:57-00:02:59]. Spent a huge portion of his episode. Braiding is the wrong word, because that's a negative connotation, but just almost pleading, please learn your history.
Andrew Adams:
Yep. So this episode came to me. Okay, my backup.
Jeremy Lesniak:
That's fine.
Andrew Adams:
So if you're a new listener of the show, you may not have heard my episode, my interview episode, but I started out studying goju ryu, went through Karate and then shotokan.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And those are all exactly the same. They just have different names, right?
Andrew Adams:
Well, not quite.
Jeremy Lesniak:
100%. The same thing is the same from one to none. But there are a lot of similarities between their forms. Which got me to thinking like this is so like, it made it difficult learning some of the new versions of these forms.
Andrew Adams:
They have different names because Shotokan is a Japanese style and goju ryu, isshinryu are Okinawan styles. So they have Okinawan names. And so a lot of those names got changed when they moved to Japan, because they didn't want an Okinawa name for the form. Because there was some little bit of politics left there right off. But if you look at them, they can look nearly identical, but not the same. And so that really got me thinking, Oh, this is interesting. And when you and I started talking about the curriculum, we were going to teach it all on the weekend. I had this idea for a class which I got from Ian Abernathy.
Jeremy Lesniak:
He's been on the show.
Andrew Adams:
Who's been on the show to kind of highlight the differences in some of these forms. And you said something interesting to me with it, which I didn't know, because I've never really been a taekwondo practitioner. And your comment was we do have a lot of Taekwondo people coming to all weekend. And I said, so what, and you said, they don't have that in Taekwondo? They're, for the most part, all the same. aim. And I was like, that blows my mind because all I know is Okinawa and Japanese karate. And so I thought, You know what, this might be a good episode to talk about why there are these differences in the Okinawan and Japanese martial arts within the forms. And why don't they have that issue in Thailand?
Jeremy Lesniak:
So let me explain a little bit of the context. Because not everyone who's going to be checking out this episode has trained in a whole bunch of different things. Yeah, right. Some of you have, you're going to be nodding along. I've trained in a variety of styles of karate, I've trained taekwondo, Taekwondo specifically, I've done a bunch of different stuff. We can take shotokan karate, and I could actually train it. I did earn some rank and shotokan back in the day, I loved it. And I could take the forms that I learned.
And they probably be a little bit different from the way you learned your shoulder conforms, especially if we're talking slightly different lineages, different organizations, right? Because it doesn't matter. What you do and how close you try to stay to the exact thing you were taught, there are going to be some differences. Do you want proof? As your instructor ever stopped correcting you, make this tweak here, make this adjustment here, right? We are all with our forms, really anything we do in martial arts, chasing this invisible, not quite tangible goal. We're always reaching for and if we think of a form specifically, we think of taking your shirt off, getting a not quite universal, but very, very close. Low block punch, low block punch mobile punch. Many of us have had what I've had in different schools given even different names. Even if it's almost the same, almost the same. Now, over on the taekwondo side, you have a little bit less fracturing there.
Right, as evidenced by the fact that you say a common karate Shorin Ryu, Gojuryu, karate, while there are organizations within Taekwondo, and we do have WT and ITF. And the other one that I'm thinking of is that there's a big organization that will come to me. It's a handful. And culturally, people are less prone in my observation to say, I train this style of Taekwondo. I train in this style of Taekwondo. Now, specifically, the people that came to Holland weekend, the majority of the folks who were engaged in taekwondo that came to our event, are practitioners of ITF Taekwondo, and ITF. Taekwondo has something that very, very few martial arts have a book that tells you exactly how to do it. And that means any discussions if you're to shore new class, and there's debate as to how to do this, that or the other in a form, the final arbiter, is the person running the school correct person of the wrath of rag, or maybe they differ that, you know, this person knows forms and has a better mind for, but it usually comes down to a person, the instructor has he wanted to, how many generations?
Is that person from the person who made the form? In that style? Yeah, more than a few. Anybody ever played the game of telephone? You know, it doesn't take very long. Whereas an ITF, taekwondo, we got a book. What does the book say? And I've observed this many, many times. Now, that doesn't mean that every ITF school does this. It doesn't mean that interpreting the book isn't without issue, because sometimes you're looking at the still photos and you're going, oh, what is it six of you, and you're off in the corner and configured, move? And you're like, “alright, do that.
Does that look right? And you're holding the book, right? I've done this. I've seen this happen all the time. And I think that there is something both really kind of cool about both ways. Because let's face it, you cannot progress without change. And if you have an idea for improving the form, you have to change it. But there's also something to be said that, over here, we've got this form that is as standardized as it kind of possibly can be. And that's really cool, too.
Andrew Adams:
You know, from the karate side. There are instant says there are examples of some of the founders of these styles teaching a certain form this way. And then, years later teaching the exact same form in a different way to someone else. So which ones “right?” That I mean, he taught it this way here and this way over here. And, you know, I'm not an expert historian, and I don't, I'm not saying this is the reason. I think it could be a reason. Everybody's body moves differently. I mean, yes, to some degree, everybody, you know, my arms go up and down. But you know, some people have limitations. Here's a perfect example. We'll take the kata for a shorin ryu called Chinto, which would be gankaku. And in the form, there is a place where you do an X block, you bring it down, and you do a double jump front kick.
My instructor has bad knees. So he doesn't teach a double jump front kick, he does a front kick from the back leg, puts it down and does another front kick from what would be the back leg. So still two kicks. But he teaches it that way, because he has physical limitations and can't teach an actual jump. And he let me know that that's what it would be. But this is how he does it. Every student coming up in the school doesn't learn the jump, double jump, front kick, because he can't do it well, and it's not being modeled correctly. Now. Let's say a student comes to the ranks, becomes a black belt, earns a rank, and goes on and opens their own school and starts to teach that form. Are they going to teach the double jump front kick, their instructor never did it.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Some of them might, maybe, at least some of them will. And now we have a split. So now we look at Funakoshi, and teach this student how to do this form. This way, he goes off and teaches all of his students, it becomes that way. Years later, he's teaching this other student who perhaps has this limitation. Sure. He teaches him that way. That person goes off and teaches his students, they're doing it a different way. Yeah. I find that really fascinating and kind of cool. It came up recently, when a friend of the show Karen Chandler, she visited my school and she is a shorin ryu practitioner, but a different lineage of shorin ryu. And they have a Kata Wanshu. And she did it for me, she performed it for me. And it was recognizable as the one we do, but still very different. And that's kind of what got my wheels turning as to like, why is it different. But it's still the same.
You can see them side by side. And you'd recognize now there are plenty of videos, if you check out on YouTube of this very comparison happening in real time you get somebody from, you know, this style, this I've seen some with as far as three, and they do it at the same time. And then they adjust the pacing. So that they are at any given time, you'll see what each of them is doing related to the other. That's super cool. And we're gonna put it in the show notes because I know of a specific YouTube video that does this nice shotokan and wait, you I think it's nice the same form. I will put it in the show notes.
I'll make sure it's in there for others. And so you're, you're talking about this being different and the same, and how interesting it is. And I want to come back to something that I said that I think is critically important. You can't have progress without change. So if we take the example of Funakoshi more, let's imagine all of them are not going to improve the thing they invented over time? The idea that the founders of these styles, who most of whom did not want to be considered founders of styles, remember that two would invent a thing, share the thing and never improve the thing beyond the first time they shared. It is so ridiculous to me as to be laughable.
Andrew Adams:
Funakoshi said that there needs to be changes in karate. I don't remember which book it was. But he absolutely said it could have been conducted. Okay. I'm not sure what my way will be if I don't remember.
Jeremy Lesniak:
So what do we do with this thought process? As an intellectual or academic exercise? It's kind of interesting. A I've got to throw up this example because I took the time to do the research, right. We talked about this a little bit. There's a form in taekwondo that I learned that is so close to another form that I learned my brain cannot internalize both versions. I learned the hunch and the initial version of a Hanshin and which is very close in other schools, depending on where you're training. And in ITF, taekwondo, it's called [00:15:14-00:15:16]. And it's the same movement that starts in the opposite direction. But my brain can't do both. Now, if I'm with people who know it, and they walk me through it once I'm good, I can because I'm making a small amount of it and will not retain it. It's not in there. Yeah, I can do a hanshin. Interesting. I can cram for it for testing or if you had to, if I can, but it doesn't stick. Yeah. Because it's trying to it's that close to my brain.
Andrew Adams:
And I can really completely because I had that issue going from Gojuryu, not so much should I go to shotokan and shorin ryu and goju ryu as well, like three totally different styles. Think of him as a triangle, and they all kind of have this same sort of stuff.
Jeremy Lesniak:
So beyond the academic exercise there, I think there is something to be said, For you talked about body differences, you maybe their limitations, maybe they're not just we're all structured differently. You and I are built differently, we're going to perform differently, whereas far differently, we're gonna do the same form differently. Some people look at that, and they're like, oh, that shouldn't be standard. I think that's an asset, because it gives us some non-common ground from which to learn from each other. If you have spent a whole bunch of time learning, like a form. You've learned how side by side I learned and you love that form, and you want to make it better. I would suggest that you should look at different people doing it in different styles of martial arts, because then you can see little details, little details, you're like, oh, I like how they do that there doesn't mean you change your for. It doesn't mean you're throwing everything out. And you're doing it this way now. But if you've been training for a long time, and if you love forms in the way that Andrew and I do you know that it's those tiny little details and nuances, as we've called it on the show a number of times the space between the moves, that often makes what you do. It's the difference between good and great or, you know, second place in first place. And the more examples you have to look at and to model after, I think more good stuff comes up.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah, going back to the taekwondo book, it was written a lot earlier than I had realized. I think you'd looked it up, it was ‘83. And there are very few texts about the Okinawan and Japanese systems. And again, I'm not a historical expert, I don't know that this is the case. But most of those styles came from Okinawa, and then migrated to Japan, Korea, Funakoshi, and others. But the island of Okinawa was destroyed during World War Two. So if I was a founder of one of those styles and wrote lots of stuff down, it's entirely possible it didn't survive the war, probably not there anymore. So we don't know, we say that those styles don't have those texts, like a 15 volume encyclopedia of stuff, because that was written a lot more sooner than I had realized.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah. And it leads us to that, that, that question, again. And I think we'll kind of wrap up here because we're not making a judgment. And I think it's important that people realize that we're not saying this is better. That is better. We're saying that both are very interesting. And then create something that is fascinating to me. In the same way that if you went to a shorin ryu school, elsewhere, on the other side of the country, you talked about somebody who lives close by.
Andrew Adams:
I mean, yes, she's ordinary.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yep. is different. Not super different, but different enough that you could not just step in and test under the same material, right? Nope, a little different. If you went to another country, same thing, right? Like it's not like you guys are just randomly bizarrely different now. That's just kind of how it is.
Whereas theoretically, I could remember plans and the other forms. I could travel to Another ITF school. And if they were holding to the curriculum as written in this encyclopedia, I would probably be able to get spun up relatively quickly. Yeah. And if not, have my current rank honored test for rank pretty quickly. And yeah, in an escalated most likely and escalated timetable. And that's not just in the US. Those fairly global champions were among those doing IETF. And by the way, the flavor of Taekwondo is forgotten with ATA, which is a very large organization.
Andrew Adams:
Yes. So the other question this leads to is, why, why did we do this episode? Because I think it's cool. I think it's really neat to look at these different versions of the same form. And I wouldn't, if people will feel comfortable with it, once we post this episode, on our Facebook group, if you'd like to do a video of yourself doing one of your forms, because maybe you do it away. Have you ever seen something this unique? Post it? I think that would be great,
Jeremy Lesniak:
Especially if it's the form that we're going to do the Triple Split.
Andrew Adams:
Which is [00:21:08-00:21:10]?
Jeremy Lesniak:
If you do a version of that, like let's get into Facebook, look at it.
Andrew Adams:
Ours is definitely the opening sequence is different though. The last three quarters of it will look fine.
Jeremy Lesniak:
You're never seen anybody that does possess the way I learned [00:21:23-00:21:28]
Andrew Adams:
Shotokan. And now shorin ryu, doing [00:21:30-00:21:31], and the opening sequence is very different. So if you feel comfortable posting in the group, that'd be really cool.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And if you're not, that's okay, you can still observe. And you can still kind of look at these slits and understand hey, this is kind of cool. This to me is kind of martial arts archaeology. Yeah, you're digging in, you're looking you're like, Okay, how did I see how they would go from this to this. More importantly, do I have a theory as to why they went from this to this or that to their unit? Right? Like, we talk often, why matters? Yeah, ask why? Come up with theories. They don't have to be.
Andrew Adams:
Right. Awesome.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Cool. Because some of them, listeners, viewers, thank you. Make sure you're following us in all the places that you might want to follow us. We are on YouTube, we are on Twitter, we are on Facebook, we're on Instagram, we are on Twitch, doing more of a Twitch and First Cup. We're also at whistlekick.com. That's where you're gonna find a store. Don't forget, PODCAST15, to save 15% on any of the things we've got going on over there. There's new stuff coming all the time. In fact, I've got a new product down here we're going to talk about the Q&A.
When we do that a little bit later, if you're watching this months into the future, there are still new things because it's a constant process. Because it's something that I enjoy doing ever evolving. Whistlekick Martial Arts Radio is the place to go for all of the show notes. Like if you want to check out that video that we're going to put up. That's the place to go for that. So make sure you're checking out that website periodically. Something else to keep in mind people, this keeps coming up and people keep being surprised.
We do transcripts because then you can search later. What was that episode Andrew and Jeremy did? I don't want to go through the title 700 And whatever episodes to try to find what was that episode he did on this. You can throw in a few keywords and narrow down why a bit. If you want to talk to us if you want to reach out you got some feedback, something like that. He's Andrew@whistlekickmartialartsradio.com. I am Jeremy@whistlekick.com. And if you want to support us, Patreon whistlekick.com/family. Maybe tell somebody about one of our episodes. I think that's it. So until next time, train, train hard, smile and have a great day.