Episode 949 - Ins and Outs of Cross Training
In this episode join Andrew as he sits down with Mark Warner and Craig Wharem to discuss the ins and outs of cross training in multiple styles.
Ins and Outs of Cross Training - Episode 949
SUMMARY
In this episode, Andrew Adams, Mark Warner, and Craig Wharem discuss the ins and outs of cross training in martial arts. They highlight the benefits of cross training, such as expanding knowledge and skills, making connections with other martial artists, and gaining a fresh perspective on one's own art. They also mention the importance of having an open mind, setting goals, and communicating with instructors. The downsides of cross training are also discussed, including potential financial costs and the need for beginners to establish a solid foundation before exploring other arts.
TAKEAWAYS
Cross training in martial arts can expand knowledge and skills, provide fresh perspectives, and make connections with other martial artists.
Having an open mind and being willing to learn from different styles is crucial for successful cross training.
Setting clear goals and communicating with instructors can help guide the cross training process.
Financial costs and the need for beginners to establish a solid foundation before exploring other arts are potential downsides of cross training.
CHAPTERS
00:00 Introduction and Overview
07:00 The Importance of Open-Mindedness and Making Connections
11:51 The Benefits of Cross Training: Expanding Knowledge and Skills
16:36 The Downsides of Cross Training: Financial Costs and Beginner ConsiderationsAfter listening to the episode, it would be exciting for us to know your thoughts about it.
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Show Transcript
Jeremy Lesniak (00:06.766)
Welcome you're listening or watching Whistlekick martial arts radio and today I'm joined by not Jeremy although mark you do have the same haircut pretty much Jeremy stunt double Jeremy stunt double mark Warner. How are you today mark? I'm doing awesome. Hopefully you're doing just the same absolutely and also esteemed longtime guest of the show Mr.. Craig Wairam, how are you? I'm esteemed
Wow, that's excellent. And you'll notice if you're watching that we are here in person. We're at the lovely Mark Warner's Professional Martial Arts Institute here in lovely Ipswich, Massachusetts. Thank you for letting us record here today. pleasure. And we are here to discuss the ins and outs of cross training. But before we get there, I want you to recognize at home that we have a website.
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Jeremy Lesniak (02:22.638)
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All right, so we're here to talk about the ins and outs of cross training. And I thought you two would be good people to talk to about this because you, Craig, if you were to say, what quote style do you predominantly train or did you predominantly train in, you would say Kempo. And you are here training at Marks in not Kempo.
Yeah, my other predominant styles. Kung Fu and Kali and... Not Kempo. Not Kempo. So, you guys train together fairly often. Yeah. And we are here to talk about the ins and outs of cross training. So let's talk about the ins first. Right? The good things, the good reasons. What made you decide to... You were training Kempo and now you're not...
not training KEMPO, you're still doing KEMPO, but you're doing other stuff too. Talk about what made you, what brought you that decision? The school that I started in always encouraged cross training. we, KEMPO was our base, but we also did kickboxing, we did Yoshitsune, combat jujitsu, and some other things as well. So I never did specifically one style. just, you know, I wasn't raised that way in the arts. I was raised that if you have questions, go find answers and you can learn something from every system and style.
So I met Mark eight, nine years ago probably, give or take. And I had always wanted to try Kung Fu and I had never found a Kung Fu teacher. And I met Mark at an event where he was teaching Kung Fu. And I found out that he knew my instructor from a long time ago. And then we just connected that way. And it's been great because on top of, I can go and teach a Kung Fu seminar and it would be a...
Jeremy Lesniak (04:34.782)
a Kung Fu seminar, I could teach a Kenpo seminar, would be, you But the mindset that I've always had is how can I just make what I do better? Like what can I pull into it? And I think that that's the benefit of cross training is not how do I throw this away and take this? It's how do I take this and add it to the things I want? You know, or is there more efficient way to do something in a different style? Well, if there is, I probably going to take it and add it into what I'm doing. So not so much throwing away.
but tweaking what you're learning to fit what you're looking to do. Right. I dig it. And Mark, any thoughts on that? cross training is the ultimate way to get to where you want to go the quickest. We do a lot. just came back from an event in Kansas. I've been doing martial arts since 1974. And I'm there working with the guys. One younger man, Jeff, he was 33.
I connected with a lot of stuff that he was teaching because I'm like, this is cool, I'm going to borrow this, and some of the others as well. So that's just a quick one. Now working with other people, just, well the way I see martial arts is it's all blends together, all flows together. So there's, if you know what you're doing, you're not going to do it wrong. You may not do it exactly the way I do it, but you're not.
wrong. We were working this morning on some stuff and you did something I'm like I'm gonna borrow that one too. That's great. it's all the reason I started to do mostly cross training is because at the time before I started becoming involved with people from Worcester kick thanks to Mr. Craig here I kept running into people who did not want me to achieve my goals. The cross training is probably the best way to achieve those goals.
I actually am working with, doing some work with Stephen Watson right now, another great man. So if you meet the right people and cross -trained with the proper people, you will achieve your goals much quicker. One thing that I really stress to my students is I want them to become better than me. But I keep learning too. So I've had a few who've almost achieved it, but they're working on it. But if I keep trying, maybe I can keep a head of them a little bit.
Jeremy Lesniak (06:54.944)
Which is kind of cool, which is just lots of fun. I always have something new to bring back to them.
So the common thread I'm noticing in both of those stories is the open -mindedness, right? neither of you went in with a closed mind that this is the only. And I am the same way. And I am stealing this analogy from Jesse Encamp. He's the first person I heard mention it, although maybe he stole it, I don't know. But getting to where you want to go in your martial journey is like climbing a mountain.
your journey in Judo or Jujitsu or Kenpo or Kung Fu or Karate, regardless you're starting at the bottom and the distance between Judo and Karate can be pretty far. You know, maybe the distance from Karate and Taekwondo isn't as far but there's still a way on the other side of them, you know, around the mountain. And as you get closer up to them, the top of the mountain, even though they're going their own path, they are a lot closer.
as the higher they get. And so there is this connection between all of them. And I think that's that open mindedness to understand that, yes, we're all on a separate path, but we're all going in the same place. And if, as you mentioned, Mark, if there's something else that you can learn that'll help you get to where you're going, that's certainly a great thing.
We've said on Whistlekick all the time that there's only so many ways that you can punch and kick, and only so many of those ways make sense through the lens of combat. And so it makes sense that there's a lot of this synergy between all of these arts. Something we did earlier today when we were training, because we got done a little training session right now. I'm a little sweaty here.
Jeremy Lesniak (08:48.702)
is we were working on things that I had never not done much of and certainly not from the style, not through the lens of your teaching. And so I was doing them in a karate way. Why? Because I'm mostly a karate practitioner. And can you speak to that a little bit about the experiences you've had learning one thing but having had your predominant training in another art?
I think for me, one of the things as I'm out in the world more and stuff that, and I was talking to somebody about this the other day, I'm grateful that I was always given the lens of, hey, you know what, like learn something from everybody, kind of get that idea. So I consider myself to be fairly well -rounded. I'm not a jack of all trades, a master of none, right? Like I can kind of hang in and do stuff. I could feel a karate influence in the way that you were moving and rolling.
as opposed to when Mark does it and it's got a little bit more of a circular kung fu, sealot kind of feel to it. And I think what's interesting is when you just, to me it's all conversational, right? If I know a little bit.
and truthfully you've taught me in seminars before. I know a little bit of karate. Sure, sure, sure, of course. Enough to be conversational. Yeah, yeah, of course. Just like when I talk to my taekwondo friends, I know just enough to be conversational. And I find that that bridges gaps and allows us to make a connection where something may click where I go, I'm struggling with a move and I go, wait, but it's very similar to this move. And then all of a sudden, boom, and then it's easier for me to pick things up.
when you have a conversation and you only know your language, and the other person only knows their language, you miss so much nuance as opposed to being able to be at least a little conversational in it. Yeah, that makes sense. Mark? I was happy as a pig in poop this morning because you came down and trained, all right? You came down and you started training and you're at the caliber where I could show you something. You picked it up, adapted it.
Jeremy Lesniak (10:57.09)
You had a little bit of your own nuance. Wasn't exactly what I was showing, but it wasn't wrong. So, I was happy with everything. Like I said, I picked up stuff from you as well. So that went really well. And it reminded me of my first, I think, my first, no, first time I taught, I had a free training day. Because it was before me was Ross Chen.
Trabagat, and then it was myself, then it was Bruno Trindade, who did Capoeira. And I'm watching Ross, and I'm like this guy's fantastic, he's great. He was showing the proper moves, proper distance, proper. So I my turn, I'm like all right, if you guys were in Ross's, this was gonna be easy, and I just play it off to him. And of course I added the following.
very similar to capoeira. So when Bruno took the stage he said all right you guys did pretty much the footwork from Marx class. So that was wicked cool. That was awesome. Now in that type of setting, those type of minds, people progress. I think some of those people left with a whole new understanding of their own personal arts, which is the ultimate goal of any instructor, any seminar like that.
Did I answer the question? Yeah, no, that was great. I thought you were just happy I showed up because then I got to attack him all day instead of you. That was wicked cool, too. No, I totally get what you're saying. think seeing other arts and how they do things for sure, think a huge benefit is being able to then recognize how it relates to your art. And I think in a lot of ways can help you understand your own art better.
You know, I've come down here to teach at your school a couple of times. I've been to your school before. And every time I've taught at these other locations, I'm teaching my karate, but inevitably multiple times I'm hearing, you know what? You're doing this. It's so similar to this. And they are different, but they're not. Like you said earlier, I wasn't doing it the way you necessarily taught it, but it wasn't wrong. It was just a slightly different.
Jeremy Lesniak (13:17.954)
variation and I know Jeremy has talked about he grew up doing karate and when he did Taekwondo he often was told you're doing Taekwondo like a karate person well yeah of course because he trained and grew up being mostly a karate person so I get that that makes sense what other I'm thinking of one but I'm gonna throw it to you guys first other other benefits you can think of to cross training I think one of the things that stands out
again for me is this excitement that, you know, those connections, right? Like you and I became better friends when we could communicate and talk together. We had that kind of sorted out and figured out. Same thing, Mark and I became friends because he knew how to teach in the language I needed to learn. But then when I explained I wanted to...
I wanted to take my art and I wanted to progress it and I wanted to add to it and I wanted to develop stuff. He then said, okay, well then this is the goal, let's do it. And I think that it's important because you can start to recognize things or have a similarity and a connection with somebody at an event like a free training day where you go, well, you do it that way, I do it this way, that's really close, that's really cool. Why do you do it that way? And then you start to share passion.
Right? Because I think everybody's passionate about their own particular brand of art, right? Whatever it is. But that passion can be shared. It doesn't mean that you're going to have the same passion that I do about it, right? And so I think that that could be really, that's the most beneficial part to me outside of the physical benefit of now you get to do more things. Yeah. And that was the thing I was thinking when I said, I have one, but I'll throw it to you guys. was the making connections with other martial artists, even though
you're not a Shorin Roo karate practitioner. Even though you're not a karate practitioner, like there are still connections that we've made. And I'm not even talking friendship. mean, obviously there is friendship connection, but even if it's just networking with other people, you hold a tournament, this is a hypothetical, if you hold a tournament at your school, you now have other people that you can invite because you have networked beyond and you know,
Jeremy Lesniak (15:36.928)
other schools, it doesn't have to be adversarial, right? So making those connections is good. Any thoughts or comments there, I agree wholeheartedly. I keep bringing up the term tribe, because your tribe expands. I have my school, you all have your school. But when we start to interconnect, things start to grow, start to build positive, in a very positive way, which is what March a lot should and will be all about. In fact, if you've, I've some of the
some of the old karate books and he's, well, all these styles are basically the same coming from the same place. They kind of split apart and did their own thing, but all come back when they get together, they work together. So it's very, very awesome. Very awesome. Yeah. So I think we've done a pretty good job of talking about a lot of the benefits of cross training, but I think we would be remiss if we didn't talk about, there are some downsides to cross training. And I think, you know, we need to bring them up because it's not,
I don't want to say cross -training isn't for everyone. I think everyone can benefit from learning from other people, but I think there are some things to talk about. Mark, can you think of any downsides or any particular ones you want to bring up? Well, from my own personal experience, I pick and choose who I cross -train with. I think it's very important. And the way I cross -train with them is very important too. There's a Cali organization, Dog Run.
which I really like what they do. But when I go to cross -draggle them, I go with the paddle weapons. I grab the paddle weapons because I want to get up and teach the next day. These guys like to use the hard weapons and they go really hard. And they demonstrate what will happen if you get hit with a stick. So for me, when I do that, I cross -drag in a very particular way. And all the people I cross -draggle with, I'm very particular about because I don't want to get injured.
and I will not let myself get injured, which puts us in a very interesting position. If I work with people I know and trust, nobody gets injured and everybody walks away smiling. And that's the best thing there is. Okay. I think that there's two things that could hinder or not be good. If you're unwilling to have an open mind, if you're gonna cross train and you think you want to learn and then you catch yourself often saying,
Jeremy Lesniak (18:03.544)
well, I do it this way. well, I learned it this way. well, right. And that kind of, well, it kind of leads into the, the whole idea of cross training is to experience that, that culture, that system. And so when you're spending your whole time talking about what you've done, you're not actually gaining any aspects from it. in fact, you're hurting the relationship, right? Because then it doesn't seem like you're there to learn.
even though you might genuinely want to. So there's a time and a place to make a comparison, I think. So having an open mind and just being the white belt as it were, right? When I started cross -training with Mark, I was a second degree black belt in Kempo, and I came in and put a white sash on. Like I was a white belt all over again. And I asked for that. You didn't make me do it. I asked for it because I wanted the opportunity to just be a white belt again. And I think...
the second thing that you really have to do, or you have to be cautious of when you're cross training, is you have to make sure that you have a set goal. Why am I learning this? Like if it's just, I want another black belt, or I want to get this rank, or I want to get that rank, well, okay, that's an okay goal, but what's gonna happen to the stuff you stopped practicing when you're practicing the new stuff?
Right. And so at some point something because the more systems you add, the more material there is for you to practice and go through and remember and recall. if so if all you're doing is seeking a rank or recognition, you have to be careful if cross training is really the thing that that'll benefit you. Yeah. I think that open minded pieces is huge. And I would say there's nothing wrong with mentioning
whether it's in your head or verbally, we talked about earlier about how, it's really cool you do it this way. Our system does it this way, but as long as you are looking at it as making those connections, in a, our system does it this way and your way is wrong. Why do you do it that way? That's a very different mentality from.
Jeremy Lesniak (20:21.994)
you know what, that's really good. Why do you do it that way? Like, I want to understand. I think that's very different. And so I think that's an important distinction to make. Another downside that I have been thinking of, I have a couple, but one of them is potentially financial, right? If I'm training at my school, I'm paying my instructor X number of dollars a month. And if I want to go learn from this other instructor and this other instructor and this other instructor,
there's a financial component there. And I think, you know, that can be a deterrent for some people. And I think that's an important thing to recognize. I also know that at a certain level, yes, I'm paying my instructor this amount of money. And then I go over to this gentleman, well, we might be able to train each other. And so maybe there's some reciprocity there. Ooh, I can't believe I said that word. That was, that was.
I'm impressed. Yeah, I am too. Very nice. But you know, you can negate some of that to some degree if you're of a certain level, which brings up my next downside. Personally, I am not a fan of my white belt students cross training in other arts. And it has nothing to do with being worried about losing them as a student.
It has everything to do with, I want them to get a firm grasp of one thing before they start to tweak it. Like I want them to learn the way I'm teaching it first. And then once they get to a certain level, then I feel a lot more comfortable with them going off. And in fact, I would encourage my, in karate would be brown belt, know, more in advance just before black belt. I encourage those students to do some cross training. So.
One downside for sure for me personally is being a beginner in something. Do you guys have any thoughts on that? I totally agree with that. If somebody in your lower ranks decide they want to go cross training other styles, they make you confused. Totally, totally. I mean, you came down, you were doing some cali with me today and I watched you and I know you're very accomplished. I watched you to make sure that you...
Jeremy Lesniak (22:40.61)
had what I wanted to show you down before we move to the next part. So if you have someone with limited experience, go to a situation where they might want to show them everything, it can be mind -boggling and mind -confusing and not good for any.
anyone. So getting a solid foundation in wherever you're going, whatever you're doing, is very good before you go looking around. And I suggest to everyone talk to your instructor before you go out and do that because they might say hold off a bit. That was going to be another downside coming up. But before we get there, Craig, any thoughts on? Yeah, I usually ask my students to have about a year with me before I let them cross train. So they're not super far along. But a year is a good amount of time to get at least some of the understanding.
down and you know to pivot into the point Mark just made that we're going to talk about anyway. You know talking to your instructor if a student comes to me and says that they want to cross train in something the first question is okay what is it what are you looking forward to get and because of relationships through Whistlekick and other things I pretty much can point them in a direction to someone I know that I know will teach it.
with similar vocabulary or in a way where it's not contradicting of what they've already been working. That's why I'm okay with the year, because I'll help steer them. If there's an instructor I don't know that they really want to go with, I'm never going to stop them. But I'm also going to do my best to help empower them to find the information that they seek. And so I have students that come down and train with Mark when I'm not here.
Right? they just come down, they train with him. I'd have no problem if we were closer to have students going to see you without me being present in the room. I don't feel like I have to be there over, you know, looming over them. Yeah. Right. And sometimes they learn better when they're not there. Their regular instructor's not in the room. yeah, I think a year of training would be good for me. And then talking to your instructor, could, depending on the instructor, go one way or the other. Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak (24:50.262)
Yeah, I definitely wanted to bring up, we talked earlier about having an open mind and that's important for you as a student. If you want to start training, like, you know, I'm training karate and if I wanted to start training Eskrimah or Silad or anything else, like, I have to have an open mind. But if I am the student of someone else and they do not have an open mind, that can be an issue. And I think...
you mentioning and you, Mark, you mentioned as well, like having a talk with your instructor is very important. And we're not gonna sit here and say this is what you need to tell your instructor because every student and instructor is different, but just recognize that that may have to be handled with a little bit of tact. And depending on your rank and your relationship with your instructor, that may be easier or harder.
but I think that is an important distinction to make.
Jeremy Lesniak (25:50.784)
I'm not a fan of doing things behind your instructors back. So letting them know, I think is important for sure. Yeah, I agree. You have to have that.
As you would expect your instructor to have an open relationship with their talking to you, should, I feel, give that back. And for the instructors listening, if a student comes to you and asks you, is it okay if I go to the seminar or I go do this thing? You know, an initial thought could certainly be, well, why? Why aren't you happy here? And it may have nothing to do with that. It just may not be something in your skill set. You know, and being humble enough
in that way where you recognize, hey, you know what, I, you know, maybe I'm not so great at Aikido because I've never done it. So somebody wants to learn a little Aikido at this seminar, on. Okay, absolutely, go for it, you know? And recognizing that martial artists really aren't in competition with each other, right? And that's how I don't.
I don't know how many times you've ever said that on the show. thousand voices on the show have said that, right? We're not in competition with each other. We're here to bring all of the arts up. so, giving your students that opportunity or going to an event, the free training days or in New Hampshire we have the martial arts symposium, those things can be great for students and they come back excited.
Exactly. And I would say, again, this is to the instructors out there. Let's be pragmatic about this. Let's say I'm an instructor, Craig is my student. He comes to me and says, there's this seminar happening in a couple of months, whether it's an all day seminar taught by one person or it's a seminar like Marshall Summit or the symposium where there's lots of different, you're taking like 45 minutes to an hour long class with someone.
Jeremy Lesniak (27:49.424)
and then you're taking another hour long class with someone. Here's the reality instructors, your student is not gonna learn much in an hour that they're gonna remember. Their martial art is not gonna be hurt by having a 60 minute class with someone. It just isn't. But is your student gonna go to that class and enjoy themselves? Probably, they're definitely gonna network and meet new people, but it's not gonna hurt their art. And what do you lose by letting them go?
lose nothing really what do you what do you gain by letting them go everything because they very well like like you said come back enthused and jazzed about the quote new thing they learned that they're gonna forget in two and a half weeks I know at my school part of our culture that we have is if you go to a free training day or a symposium or an all -day seminar whatever you go out and you train elsewhere
The first class you come back, I give every student who went 10 minutes of the floor, and I let them share their favorite thing they learned. And they are so excited to bring it back to everyone. And honestly, as an instructor who runs a school and has to manage a business, my students are excited to come to class. You know what that means? That means that they're coming to class. Yeah. Mark, any thoughts? You guys have put it so well, all of you.
you just said. It's very important. There's been, I've had teachers way back when who, nope, you're gonna stay here. You're not even gonna do a tournament. So we want to earn.
our students at a certain rate to go out and participate in these events. I highly recommend a master summer coming up in Keene because that gives you everything. And for the instructor out there, go with your students. If you have the opportunity, take these opportunities. I remember when I was very young, actually in Beverly, we had Wally J, Remi Presses.
Jeremy Lesniak (29:50.958)
I didn't go because somebody told me, no, no, you don't have to go. That was silly. take the opportunity now because believe it not, even I won't be here forever. I'm going to try, but I won't be here forever. So get out, go to the events, enjoy everything, enjoy the martial arts. Well said. There's also just...
I think for me, my final point in this is if you, to bounce off of what Mark said, go with them. I mean, there's nothing more inspiring to me than when I see my instructors on the floor learning beside me. that gets me excited. And I know because my students have, when I have guests come up for seminars at the school, I'm taking the seminar. I'll snap a couple photos, I'll, you know, but.
For the most part, I'm in the class. You're in the mix. Yeah. And I'm right in the middle of the room and I won't wear my black belt if I'm not a black belt in it or I'll wear my whistle kick belt where I flip it. So it's white. Yeah. So I'll do that. No problem. Because my students, I mean, you saw it. They all were like, they wanted to learn too. It also frees me up from the burden of having to make them think that I knew it already. And then I have to answer their questions after you leave. Yeah.
No, I dig it. think we've covered the subject pretty well. Is there anything we're missing? The ins and outs of cross training. Any ins or any outs that we didn't bring up that you want to? When the time is right, do it. When the time is right, do it. Awesome. For you guys listening at home,
Were there ins or outs that we missed? Is there another plus side to cross training? Is there another downside to cross tankers or something that we didn't bring up? Let us know. You can comment on our Facebook group. You can comment on the YouTube page on the video for this episode, or you can email me, andrew at whistlekick .com. I also happen to know you can email Craig at whistlekick .com too. That's right.
Jeremy Lesniak (31:55.0)
And you can send Mark a letter in the mail.
Jeremy Lesniak (32:00.484)
That's true, you could. It was just because you threw your hands up. Thank you for joining us. We certainly appreciate all the support that you could give us, whether that support is financially through Patreon or whether just telling someone an episode that you liked, let someone else know that you enjoyed it and have them listen as well. Or whistlekick .com, you can purchase so many things. Go there.
There's so much new stuff added all the time. And so I could all but guarantee if you haven't been there in the last week or two, there's something new on the website for sale. So you should go check that out. And if you use the code podcast one five, you'll save yourself 15%, which is pretty cool. All right, anything else? Or you can probably catch any combination of us at a free training day. That's true. can do it any day. anywhere in the world.
Yeah, you can pretty much catch at least one of us at any of them. Fair enough. All right. So until next time, smile, trade hard. Great day. get it backwards. Trade hard. That's staying in. Well, I got one off.