Episode 931 - When is it Time to Ask a Student to Leave?
In this episode, Jeremy and Andrew sit down and talk abut a difficult subject: Asking a student to leave your dojo.
When is it Time to Ask a Student to Leave? - Episode 931
SUMMARY
In this conversation, Jeremy and Andrew discuss the challenging topic of when it is time to ask a student to leave a martial arts school. They explore various scenarios where a student's behavior may negatively impact the experience of others, such as disruptive behavior, safety concerns, and drama. They emphasize the importance of maintaining a positive learning environment for all students and the need to address issues that arise. The hosts also acknowledge the difficulty instructors may face in making the decision to ask a student to leave and encourage listeners to share their experiences and perspectives on the topic.
TAKEAWAYS
* When a student's behavior consistently violates the expectations set by the instructor or school, and they show no effort to correct it, it may be time to ask them to leave.
* Disruptive behavior that compromises the experience of other students and safety concerns are common reasons for asking a student to leave.
* Financial reasons, such as non-payment of dues, may also lead to a student being asked to leave, depending on the circumstances.
* Instructors have a duty to share their knowledge and create a positive learning environment for all students, and accommodating poor behavior can undermine that.
* It can be challenging for instructors to make the decision to ask a student to leave, but it is necessary to maintain the integrity of the martial arts school.
* Listeners are encouraged to share their experiences and perspectives on when it is time to ask a student to leave a martial arts school.
CHAPTERS
03:48 When is it Time to Ask a Student to Leave?
05:10 Not a Fit for the Martial Arts Program
09:53 Inability to Solve Problems
13:00 Impact on Other Students' Learning
20:36 No Student is More Important
22:55 Difficulty in Ending Relationships
24:01 Sharing Experiences and Perspectives
After listening to the episode, it would be exciting for us to know your thoughts about it.
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Show Transcript
Jeremy (00:00.396)
Hey, welcome. And I don't know if you're gonna cut that and bonus it or put it at the end. There's gonna be something really fun at the end. You should stick around because we just chatted for...
Jeremy (02:23.116)
Two and a half minutes about something that was fun and mildly related. We could relate that to martial arts. We're not going to if you want to save that for the next word association. You could do that. But hey, you, you out there in the audience, whether you're watching, which we hope you are, or listening, which most of you do, welcome to Whistlekick Martial Arts Radio. I'm Jeremy Lesniak, joined by my good friend, co -host, producer, video editor, event co -promoter.
and handsome, handsome man, Andrew Adams. That's me. That is you. Thank you for being here. We appreciate you being here. And on today's episode, we're gonna follow up an episode that we did a couple months ago as the point that this releases where we talked about when is it time to step away from your martial arts school? And we're gonna kind of flip this. I don't know, was this audience feedback? Actually, Kelly Thomas said. Okay.
Maybe you guys do an episode on this. All right. Shout out to Kelly, one of our whistle kick Alliance members with her with her school TKD kicks as as well as just often support her. She's she's a wonderful person. She's become a great friend. Pose the question. What about. When is it time to ask a student to leave? A much more difficult and emotional situation, so we're going to dig into that today. Stick around.
What would you do? Does it line up with what we're going to talk about? Hmm. We'll find out in a moment. If you're new to what we do, welcome. Thank you for joining us. A couple things you might want to consider doing. Head to whistlekickmartialartsradio .com where we have every episode, including transcripts. We have a place you can play the episode, watch the episode right there, and you can find all the episodes we've ever done. This is 900 and something or whatever. 900 and...
Sure, I don't know 932 probably I think we'll see don't quote us on that you you can already tell wherever you are watching They're listening, you know, you know episode number. This is better than we do. Yeah. Yeah You might also consider heading to whistlekick .com why because what we do is so much more than a Martial arts podcast We are more than the top ranked traditional martial arts podcast in the world We are also an event company and a product company and a training program
Jeremy (04:46.796)
and even more than that so check out whistlekick .com if there's something there you want to buy almost everything is available at a 15 % discount with the code HODCAST15 and that helps us pay bills because you know what nothing's free
Absolutely. So let's let's let's dig in.
Let's set the scene not with a specific but with some generalities and we can work to specifics. This is usually what we do on the show. The premise here that we're working through is that there is a student who is not a fit for your martial arts program and they have not chosen to remove themselves. Right? Quite often when it's not a fit the student or the parents of the student
Recognize that it's not a fit and they'll make the choice. Yep. I Would say most often that happens but not always most I would agree and it happens most often because of one very Strong belief that is commonly held by most martial arts instructors. I know The students that are most difficult in class are the ones that need what I offer the most
The disruptive child most needs the discipline and the structure of being in class. The adult that talks out of turn or creates drama is the one that most needs community and support that comes from being in class.
Jeremy (06:28.14)
Unfortunately, there are circumstances where...
Jeremy (06:35.5)
You're not going to be able to help this person solve their problems They're unwilling to step away Or they're unwilling to have their problems solved unwilling unable. Yep, right there's something going on and I would say in I Think I can confidently say in every case one thing is happening that that triggers this
and it has to do with how the student's behavior is impacting the other students. The other students, yeah. For me, that's one of, not the only, but one of the biggest things that I go to is that if a student is impacting another student's ability to learn, that's a huge problem. Now, of course, that's a spectrum. That's not...
because in every class you have students that need more attention than others and you can't expect that every single student is going to get the exact same amount of time and attention in every class and if someone needs a little more well I'm booting them out that that's not what we're talking about yeah there's a threshold and I'm thinking back to there was a student when I had my school like first time so we're going back a couple decades
There was a student who came and I knew the dad and so the parents brought the son. He was seven, eight and was chaotic. And we agreed, you know, this might not be a fit. Let's see what happens. And fortunately we were in agreement that the group setting was not a fit for him. But I other...
if they had disagreed or if they'd not seen that, I would have absolutely, that child would not have gotten a second class with me at that time. And what we decided to do was, just as an aside, we decided to one -on -one. And in the hope that we could build up enough structure and skill and trust with me that we could get him back into the class.
Jeremy (08:56.716)
But I've heard plenty of stories, you've probably heard them too, where parents don't care. They see martial arts as a babysitting program. A drop off daycare. For some of them, they see it as a low cost daycare. Because let's face it, how much does daycare cost? It's a fortune. I think anybody who's...
even adjacent to that industry knows that.
Jeremy (09:32.908)
How many people have you known that have been asked to leave? I could probably, I'd have to think about it, but I could count them all on one hand. It's a small number. I'm thinking of one, and I don't want to give details on the story because it's not my story, but I'm thinking of one there.
Jeremy (09:53.836)
I've never personally, but unfortunately, had to ask someone to leave. Now there have been people that have kind of ridden that line and they've all, where I've placed them, you know, if they're on a line, I've put them somewhere, the reason that they're there is because they're so dramatically compromising the experience for others in the room. Yep. Yeah. The instances.
Excuse me, that I know of were the same. They were affecting either other students and the safety of other students. And then one was actually a parent that was asked to not come back. Your child was still welcome and you can drop them off, but you need to stay outside. I just had a conversation with a school owner who had...
and I'm gonna make sure I use no details here, because again, not my story to tell, but very, very high drama. We'll just leave it at that. And...
Jeremy (11:05.26)
When it's kids, we're talking about disruptive behavior that detracts from others. When we're talking about adults, it usually has to do with high drama that they're not willing to leave at the door. High drama or safety? The safety usually comes from the drama. No? No, not your experience? I would say often, but certainly not always. Okay. Because when I think about the safety stuff...
It's quite common, anybody out there who's been around a while knows, it's really common if you get a larger, like a physically larger in stature adult man joining class. They're used to using their strength as an asset and it can be really difficult to get them. Not that it's malicious, but they just struggle. I've always been able to find a way to accommodate that. You're gonna work with me until you can soften up. Sure, but that's different.
But when you have a student and there I know is an example in a school that I was in so I feel comfortable telling stories who refused to spar and we just did you know point sparring with you know head head gear and phone gear stuff like that but refused to go light and No matter how much the instructor told them you're sparring with a yellow belt and you're a black belt like You need to go lighter with it. Well, they're not gonna learn anything
No, you need to go lighter and refused basically to do so. Would say, okay, but would do it for one or two people and then get to the third person and they get ramped up and would continually spar way too hard and was eventually asked to leave because he started affecting everyone else's ability to learn. People didn't want to be there. They didn't want to partner with him. They didn't want to partner with him and...
It became unsafe. You know what else I hear in that story? Hmm. How did he get a black belt? Well, he did not get a black belt from our school. But he got a black belt from somebody. You're right. Absolutely. So somebody earned a black belt from somebody and they overlooked that and so that's why you know when we talk about some of these things that's why culture and making sure that your students are not just physically skilled but Able to embody the lessons of martial arts is so so important.
Jeremy (13:29.452)
Yeah, yeah, I am. I'm trying to think I've dealt with people like this, but one of the things that I think I forget is that through most of my time in training, despite being smaller, I have been more skilled than most people on the floor. So if I'm dealing with somebody like that, I can usually say, OK, either you need to dial it back or we're going to go at your pace. And I'm better at going at your pace than you are. You're not going to enjoy it.
And that unfortunately works. But there are other people. I'm thinking of someone, I think I've told you this story, I won't give the details, someone in an organization that I'm part of.
was a bully and was known to be a bully. Interesting, yeah. And was kind of ignored for being a bully for whatever reason.
So we're talking, really it's coming down to two results. It's safety compromising the experience of other students and it's disruption compromising class, the ability of other students to learn. Yep, I would agree. And I think there has to be...
I don't think it can be a black and white. I think we both would agree. It's not like this person just this person disrupted class The first time get out I mean obviously, you know when the person that I was speaking of that that was sparring too hard Wasn't like the first time it happened. He was like he was spoken to multiple times and When it was obvious after a month or so that he was not going to change that that was when a conversation was had
Jeremy (15:21.036)
that it looks like it's not the right school for you. We mentioned the third one we kind of glossed over is the drama, right? Maybe parents causing problems on the side or saying, harassing instructors, my child, why did that child, right? We've heard stories about that stuff. But if we add all three of those, if we take what's common to those three, it's someone or someone's, maybe it's a family.
negatively impacting the experience of others. Yep, and you don't see it getting better Yeah, I think that's the key that was not gonna get that that was the issue we had with a parent who he the both parents would come and bring the child and The mother was fine, but the father would often come in smelling of alcohol and I'm not gonna say they were drunk because I'm no legal
Ability to know that but he was very disruptive during class He would set off the side and be like why is he doing it that way and would yell to his son? Hey, and I'm not gonna use the name. Hey Person like do it like him. He's doing it so much better than you and it's like, Let me teach a class. Yeah, and it sounds like he probably was drunk perhaps But when this happened multiple days They were eventually told
we would still love to have your child in class and if you would like your wife to come in and sit and watch class, that's fine, but we're gonna need you to stay outside. And I assume that wasn't the first communication on the subject. Absolutely it was not, yeah, for sure.
We expect as martial artists, as martial arts instructors, we expect that people get better. And the moment someone's not gonna get better, that's where issues come up, right? Students will choose to leave often when they don't see themselves getting better, right? You get that hole just before black belt, you know, someone's in there.
Jeremy (17:29.132)
because the length of time between rank, which is how they've identified that they're getting better, shout out to schools that find ways to motivate people without rank, because that's not the only way, nor is it the best way.
Jeremy (17:46.956)
they bail because they end up in that spot for a year or two and they're going, I don't know, I'm getting better. They don't see the progress, so they're investing time, energy, and money and not seeing the results. It breaks the equation. That's a fundamental equation for us as human beings, that we need to see something on either side of the equal sign.
as instructors and honestly as students, I've been in plenty of classes with disruptive people, people who go too hard, but when I see that they're getting better, it changes everything. When I can see light at the end of the tunnel, I'm willing to give it more time. And I think the only other aspect of this we haven't touched on is an
There are certainly ways to go about it, but financial reasons. If you have a student that, and there are ways to work around this, but the scenario is you charge X number of dollars a month to teach and this student has not paid for X number of months, maybe you've had a discussion with them and I'm not telling you as an instructor how to handle this situation. In our school, we usually try and work something out with them, but.
If you are a school owner that needs to be, you know, financially paid by every single student, maybe that is a reason that you ask them to leave as well. It's not one I would personally do. It depends on why they're not paying. Exactly. Right. And so if we now if we kind of collect all that together, we can express it a different way. It's people not meeting your instructor school.
Expectations of them you are expected to do certain things you're expected to show up probably on time probably in a clean uniform Probably ready to learn probably having paid your dues Etc right whatever the things are and if you consistently violate those conditions and you do not show that you are making efforts to Correct that behavior
Jeremy (20:07.596)
and the violations are significant enough to the instructor, then it's time for them to leave. Now, here's the piece that I think we need to remember. This is a really important piece. And I've said this, and this is something that I think some instructors are going to struggle to hear. There is no one student that is more important than the rest of your students.
Jeremy (20:36.524)
I don't care how much that student needs you.
Because if you continue to accommodate poor behavior that is in violation of whatever expectations you have set of them, you will be left with only that student. As martial arts instructors, we have a gift and a responsibility. I've thought a lot about this. I posted this on Facebook a couple of weeks ago. Martial arts instructors have a duty.
to share what we have with as many people as possible.
how do I say it, to reach as many students as possible. There are plenty of there's plenty of opportunity for subjectivity in there. Put that aside for a moment.
The needs of the one, the needs of the many.
Jeremy (21:32.3)
If you allow your student, one student, to not pay their dues and everybody else finds out about it, it's not good. Maybe they stop paying or maybe they resent that person and it affects your culture. There's no good that comes of that. Maybe you have a student that's incredibly disruptive and continues to disrupt. And if it's a child, the parents don't do anything about it. Or if it's an adult, they don't show up.
better prepared or whatever it is. Your tolerance of that is a signal to your other students that the rules you set are unimportant.
It's not just about what you know and how well you can teach. It's how well what you teach is received by the majority.
Jeremy (22:25.996)
So I think if you consider any scenario through that lens and these various things we've put together here, it becomes pretty obvious when it's time for someone to leave. The question is, are you gonna pull the trigger? And we know that most people have a hard time doing that because we love teaching, because we value our students, because we want to reach them, but also because a lot of us are scared of causing conflict and we have a hard time ending things. How many people are in it?
bad marriages, bad relationships that they know do not serve them and everybody would be better if they ended things, but they don't do it.
That was a good and balanced approach to the subject. Yeah, but we want to know what you think Reach out to us Andrew at Jeremy at whistlekick .com Join the Facebook group page the Facebook page. We retired the group. Yep martial arts radio Let us know You can email us you can find us we post this stuff on social media at whistlekick everywhere We want to know what you think and specifically what I want to know and if you've got to share this privately totally fine I want to know
when you have kicked students out. And I want to know why, or if you're not the instructor, when a student was kicked out. I want more examples of this, because I think between the two of us, we have less than a dozen. Yeah, for sure. I've got less than five. And so hearing more from all of you helps us kind of round that out and see, is there an exception to what we've laid out that we didn't consider? That's what I'm most interested in. Yeah, that'd be good.
Thank you for being here, we appreciate you, we appreciate all of your continued support in our efforts to connect, educate and entertain the martial artists of the world. Help us help all of you. Until next time, train hard, smile and have a great day. Yay, we're good at this. Yeah, we should keep doing it. Okay, let's keep going. All right. All right.
CREDITS
Jeremy (00:00.396)
I am self -conscious of creating any kind of percussive sound when you're in the room. There are times, like you were out, you were getting the plant and I was here and I was just kind of drumming along and I was like, Andrew's gonna hear me. I'm off beat, I'm sure I'm off. And he's gonna judge me. He's gonna judge me horrendously. It won't happen, it's fine. Do you find, do you have challenge with just.
Percussive noise in the world because it's close to drumming like if you hear something that is somewhat harmonic, but not quite Percentage no not really. I don't think so But you fuck you hear it percussive stuff right everywhere in fact. I encourage you if you have not seen it a great movie Called tap or maybe it's taps and a tap or taps. I don't remember with Gregory Hines, okay?
And it's a tap dancing movie. But he goes out on the street and listens to the, he's in New York City. And he hears the percussive stuff of everything. And he dances to it. And he's teaching, there's one scene where he's taking a group of his students, some tap people around. And the big thing was like his dad was a famous, famous tap dancer in the movie. I don't know that.
But he was like you hear that you know There's a car driving by a piece of metal and it makes the sound he's like, you know I hear this when I hear and he like tap dances it out. It's a brilliant movie really really really good really interesting and if you You don't have to be in the tap to enjoy the movie. It's a great movie But if you are into tap dancing Gregory Hines is in it Sammy Davis jr. Arthur Duncan
Tim Ash, like all of these famous tap dance, like old school tap dance people are in it. Yeah, back when actors were, they could act and sing and dance and they were multi -faceted. Yeah, great, really good movie. How do you check it out? But anyway, that has nothing to do with our episode.