Episode 919 - When is it Time to Leave?
In this episode, Jeremy and Andrew discuss when it might be time to leave your school, and how to handle it if you do.
When is it Time to Leave? - Episode 919
SUMMARY
The conversation revolves around the topic of when it is time to leave a martial arts school. The hosts discuss two main categories: the desire for more and the presence of issues. Under the desire for more, they mention wanting to explore different martial arts styles, seeking more advanced training, or wanting to progress in rank beyond what the current school can offer. Under the presence of issues, they mention physical or sexual abuse, cult-like behavior, a punishment-focused culture, and being taken advantage of financially or in terms of time. They emphasize the importance of open and respectful communication between students and instructors. When it's time to leave a martial arts school, it can be due to various reasons such as dishonesty, lack of clear expectations, stagnant growth, and instructors who lack passion. It is important to have open and clear communication with the instructor before making the decision to leave. Having a conversation or writing a letter can help provide closure and potentially lead to positive changes in the school. It is crucial to be respectful and considerate of other students when leaving, and not to compromise their experience. Ultimately, the decision to leave should be based on personal feelings and integrity.
TAKEAWAYS
* There are two main reasons to leave a martial arts school: the desire for more and the presence of issues.
* The desire for more can include wanting to explore different martial arts styles, seeking more advanced training, or wanting to progress in rank beyond what the current school can offer.
* The presence of issues can include physical or sexual abuse, cult-like behavior, a punishment-focused culture, and being taken advantage of financially or in terms of time.
* Open and respectful communication between students and instructors is crucial in addressing concerns and making decisions about leaving a school.
* It is important to remember that leaving a school does not mean leaving martial arts altogether; it is about finding a better fit for personal growth and development. Open and clear communication is essential before leaving a martial arts school.
* Having a conversation or writing a letter can provide closure and potentially lead to positive changes in the school.
* Respect and consider the impact of your departure on other students.
* The decision to leave should be based on personal feelings and integrity.
CHAPTERS
00:00 When is it Time to Leave?
09:29 Desire for More: Exploring New Horizons
19:08 Issues: Escaping a Cult-like Environment
19:26 Issues: Moving Away from a Punishment-focused Culture
19:59 Open Communication: The Key to Resolving Concerns
21:51 Leaving a School, Not Martial Arts: Finding a Better Fit
22:48 Knowing When It's Time to Leave
26:17 Having a Conversation Before Departure
30:07 Overcoming Fear of Conflict
34:12 Summing It All Up
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SHOW TRANSCRIPT
Jeremy (02:29.12)
What's happening, everybody? Welcome. This is another episode of Whistlekick, martial arts radio. It's been a while since we recorded one of these, Andrew. I might be out of practice. If you're new to what we do, well, I'm Jeremy Lesniak, founder of Whistlekick, lover of all things martial arts, joined by my good friend, Andrew Adams, who also loves all things martial arts. And...
What do we do here at Whistlekick? Well, Whistlekick is more than just martial arts radio, but on martial arts radio, we connect with you. We educate you if we're doing our job well, and we entertain you if you're doing your job well. Because we're funny, and if you don't think so, then that's all you. But what do we do at Whistlekick? Our goal at Whistlekick is to get everyone in the world to train for six months. And that's a really big goal, and we need your help. And how can you help us do that? Well, you can continue to...
watch, consume, listen to, and read our content, whether that's through martial arts radio, our social media channels, the books that we produce on Amazon, martial journal, any of the things like that. But if you're up for supporting us financially, because the things that we do do cost some money, please consider supporting us. Our Patreon is a big part of what we do here to support the show. And if you go to patreon .com slash whistlekick, you can get some bonus merch. You can get some behind the scenes stuff.
and you can get some exclusive content. You know, we work really hard to make sure that the people who contribute to us get the clearest picture of what we're doing, the most uncensored raw at times. I mean, usually if I record stuff for Patreon, it's one take. If I flub it, I'm going to tell you why I flubbed it, right? Like you're in there, you see what's going on. But you could also support us in a lot of other ways. Come to our events. Buy stuff at whistlekick .com. Check out our training program. If you have a school,
WKAlliance .com, the Whistlekick Alliance is a group of martial arts schools where we do a ton of work to help you grow and it is working. It has been incredible. I'm so honored that we have that and I get to lead that. But now to the show.
Andrew Adams (04:42.909)
To the show!
Jeremy (04:44.032)
to the show. Wait, I'm glad I didn't go that way. We went the same direction somehow. So the title, unless we refine it later, Andrew, when is it time to leave? And of course, we're talking about leaving a martial arts school, because hopefully nobody's leaving martial arts, right? No matter what happens in your life. Yeah, yeah, if you have a bad experience at a school, that shouldn't mean you stop training. It should mean you find another school.
Andrew Adams (04:55.581)
Mm -hmm.
Andrew Adams (05:00.285)
Yeah, I would not want to advocate leaving martial arts in general.
Jeremy (05:11.936)
If you have a bad experience in competition, maybe you stop competing. Hopefully not, but if you do, fine. But it doesn't mean you stop training, right? So we're talking about leaving four walls, right? I'm not gonna be here anymore.
How many martial arts schools have you left?
Jeremy (05:35.744)
I'm thinking.
Andrew Adams (05:36.797)
Well, three.
Andrew Adams (05:46.173)
Jeremy's thinking for those that are just listening, Jeremy's thinking, counting.
Jeremy (05:51.296)
I think I'm at six or seven that I've left. You could kind of call a half in there. I faded, I didn't leave. I would go back in a heartbeat. It's just, it's a logistical thing.
Andrew Adams (05:52.861)
Okay.
Andrew Adams (06:03.709)
And can I ask of those six slash seven, were your reasons for leaving the six, were they, was the reason the same for all of them? Or were they different reasons?
Jeremy (06:15.36)
One stands out differently, but most of them, the not one, right, the five.
life took me to a different physical location.
Andrew Adams (06:26.301)
Yeah, and I think that's a great place to start because I don't want to talk about those reasons. I think we can just say, when is it time to leave? Well, sometimes it's when you move away for whatever reason. Exactly, exactly. And...
Jeremy (06:39.168)
There's not a lot you can do about that. We're not gonna tell you, you know, don't take that job, don't go to college, don't do these things because you have a great martial arts school. If time, life takes you in a different direction, then it's about finding another way to train and maintain your training, find another school, whatever it is.
Andrew Adams (06:45.757)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, absolutely.
Andrew Adams (06:55.485)
Absolutely. And that doesn't mean you're not still necessarily connected to that school. As an example, the Shotokan school that I left, you know, I was there for 15, 16 years, I left because I moved three hours away, right? I'm not going to be driving three hours every Wednesday to go to class. However,
Jeremy (07:11.968)
to you.
Andrew Adams (07:18.973)
When I'm on vacation in July, my wife and I, the family, we're vacationing near where that school is. So I'm planning on going to class on Wednesday, because I'm only going to be 45 minutes away. So like, what's that? No, no, no, it's in Northern New Hampshire, in Bethlehem, New Hampshire.
Jeremy (07:32.828)
nice. Is that the one in Vermont? Is that the one in Vermont?
Jeremy (07:42.992)
yeah, yeah, awesome.
Andrew Adams (07:44.605)
So, I mean, I'm still connected to the school. I just, I would not say that I am a student at that school anymore.
Jeremy (07:54.592)
And I think everybody gets that, right? Life takes us in directions. So that's not what we're talking about. We're going to put that over there. We are talking in generality. You don't have to leave, but you feel you have to leave.
Andrew Adams (07:57.213)
Yeah.
Andrew Adams (08:12.093)
you've chosen to leave for a different reason other than logistics.
Jeremy (08:17.952)
Yeah. So where do we start there? Because there are a whole bunch of reasons, but I think we can probably sum them up into two categories.
Andrew Adams (08:28.349)
Okay.
Jeremy (08:30.368)
I need more. I don't like what's going on.
Andrew Adams (08:34.013)
Sure. Yeah, I think that's fair, and it could be a combination of both as well.
Andrew Adams (08:42.781)
I'm just thinking if there's a third. Yeah, I was gonna say, yeah, no, I think those are the two that I can't think of a third. That you -
Jeremy (08:53.536)
Everything I can come up with fits under one of those two headings. So let's throw out.
Andrew Adams (08:56.541)
Yeah, like, I mean, I've got three or four different things in my head, but you're right, they fall under one of those two. Yep.
Jeremy (09:01.952)
Let's start with the I need more because I think that's a shorter list. It is a less inflammatory list and it's a much less common occurrence. Right.
Andrew Adams (09:09.213)
Yep, sure.
Andrew Adams (09:14.397)
Yeah, probably less common.
Jeremy (09:16.384)
If just from my experience from the conversations that I have with people here on the show, the times people leave because they need or want more.
doesn't come up very often. So we're talking about maybe, because I've had this conversation with one of my instructors. I don't feel like I have anything left to teach you. I want you to go over there, right? That might happen. Or I've been training in this for a while and it's exposing to me that I kind of feel like I want to do some of this, right? Maybe you've spent your time as a striker and...
Andrew Adams (09:41.149)
Mm. Yep.
Jeremy (09:57.952)
you're really interested in grappling and your school doesn't offer grappling, right? I think that's kind of the general gist of I need or want more. There's something that I'm seeking that my school cannot provide to me.
Andrew Adams (10:11.997)
Mm -hmm.
So I want to add one more to that, which, and again, this probably doesn't happen a lot, but I definitely can see it happening and know of it happening. My instructor's a fourth degree black belt and I get to third degree black belt and I can't, putting this in air quotes for those that are only listening, can't progress any further. Certainly there are still things they can teach, but.
Jeremy (10:16.832)
Please.
Andrew Adams (10:42.429)
In terms of rank, I can't gain any more rank from my instructor. So either my instructor has to continue to train, which that starts to fall into the other category, but they would have to continue to train so they could gain more rank so that I could get more rank. And that happens.
Jeremy (10:59.328)
Yeah, and there are schools out there that are smaller and the instructor has been at that same rank for decades because maybe they're just not interested or maybe they've lost affiliation or association with a group or for whatever reason they're not going to promote and so they're at fourth degree and you're third degree and going, you know what, you want to leave? I get it. If becoming fourth, fifth and progressing on is important to you, I can't do that for you. It's not...
Me changing the things i've got to change in my life so you can do that in the future. That's not going to happen And here's the thing that I think is really interesting about The way we've we've split this This first category this first heading that we're digging into much of the time If it's handled If you as the student approach the instructor and have a respectful conversation, it usually goes really well
Andrew Adams (11:58.557)
It can, for sure.
Jeremy (11:58.72)
It's usually, you know what? I don't offer BJJ. I'm not gonna be able to promote you further. You're right. I've got a good thing going with the way I teach classes and you want to be able to dig into more nitty gritty detail and we're just not gonna be able to provide that. I support you going off and doing your own thing. And I think...
You know, because when we do these episodes, you and I tend to be very academic and intellectual. We don't always talk about action items that people can take. And so I think this is a place where we really want to underscore. And I think you and I are on the same page. I'm going to guess this, that if, if this sort of stuff that we're talking about here is you have a conversation with your instructor.
Have an open, honest, respectful conversation with your instructor. Because if you are one of these people, you've been training with that person a while. You've built a relationship with them. And if you don't feel comfortable having a conversation with them, it's for one of two reasons. It's because you're not willing to, because you're scared, that's on you.
or they're going to fall into the second category of person we're talking about and you've got a different situation that we'll get into in a moment. Would you agree?
Andrew Adams (13:15.869)
Yeah, I would definitely agree. I would definitely agree. You know, it's very similar, not exactly, but similar to something that happens in bands that I teach for those that are listening for the first time. I teach drumming and it's very common for drummers to progress to be the level that their instructor is and their instructor isn't getting better. And so that drummer will start to seek, you know, getting
instruction from somewhere else and it absolutely happens. And if you hold a student back because you are afraid that they're going to leave you, you're doing nothing but hurting yourself on top of hurting them in terms of their ability. But those people absolutely exist. Instead of and let's you know we'll talk of it in terms of of
in terms of a band, right? Drummers getting better in the band and they wanna go off and play with a better, quote unquote, better band, one that's gonna challenge them more, which will make them get even better. I have seen two, basically two things happen. One, the drummer of the lower, the drummer in charge of the lower band says, no, you can't go, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and there ends up being a butting of the heads. That drummer ends up leaving anyway to go to the higher.
the higher level band, they're gonna get better and there's bad blood. The other option is, and I've been in this situation and this is what I did. I said, you know what? Absolutely. Like I'm excited for you to go off and have this chance to play at this higher level. And they left the band. The drummer I'm speaking of, have been a student of mine for years. He is without a doubt a better drummer than I am now. And we are incredibly close.
Jeremy (15:12.8)
That's pretty cool.
Andrew Adams (15:15.069)
And I know that if I called him up right now and said, hey, you're gonna be up in this area in a couple of months, would you come and work with my guys? Like, absolutely no questions asked because we have a good relationship. And before they moved away completely, like they went to play with this other band and didn't play with us, but he still lived in town and he worked with us and helped the group get better.
Jeremy (15:44.704)
I don't remember what episode it was, but we did an episode where we worked through the logical sort of math of your goal as an instructor should be to help your students become better than you. Right. And I think a lot of instructors, even if they haven't thought of it that way, do embrace that philosophy. They do want what is best for their students. And.
Andrew Adams (15:57.789)
Yep, absolutely. Yep.
Andrew Adams (16:07.581)
Mm -hmm.
Jeremy (16:08.608)
That's a sign of a great school and that's the kind of school you should be at. And it can be really sad, really difficult when you reach a point where that is the sort of school you're at and you want more and they can't provide it. That is a difficult decision.
Andrew Adams (16:25.853)
Yep. And when I first started hosting these episodes with you, when I came on board as cohost, one of the phrases that came up a lot was open, clear communication. And it's so valuable. And I want to make it very clear. This is a two -way street. The student needs to be able to have really good communication with their instructor. Their instructor has to be the same. And, you know, I most recently left a school.
partly because there was very bad communication. And I think that caused a lot of problems with my training within the school and then not just myself. I know there are other students as well that have issues with poor communication. And I think that is what makes it difficult when you are looking to get more but your instructor's not open communicating.
Jeremy (17:19.52)
We should do an episode on communication at some point and talk about not just styles and qualities and effective methods of communication, but responsibilities. I think that's, we could put that on the list because I have this saying that has come through in the business consulting work that I do, with the rare exception where people are jerks, all problems in business come down to communication issues.
Andrew Adams (17:47.581)
Yeah, I would 10 degree. Yeah.
Jeremy (17:51.2)
Yeah, and you may not agree listeners, viewers, audience, but if you dig into it enough, either it's a communication problem or somebody's being a jerk. Those are really the two possibilities. Now, I suspect that most people tuned into this episode because of this next category that we're going to get into, not the warm fuzzy.
There isn't anything left for me here. I want more indifferent. It's the, there's an issue.
Andrew Adams (18:25.213)
Yep, yep, I would agree.
Jeremy (18:30.272)
We should talk about what some of these issues are because I get email feedback from people and sometimes they're afraid that the things they're experiencing, they're alone. And so I think it's important that we get this down so people out there know they're not alone. So issues that could come up that might warrant you leaving the school. Physical abuse, sexual abuse.
Andrew Adams (18:43.453)
Yeah, very rarely I think they're alone.
Jeremy (19:02.304)
cult -like behavior.
Jeremy (19:08.128)
Jeremy (19:12.608)
a culture that...
is hyper focused on punishment rather than improvement. If you throw in as you're thinking of them too.
Andrew Adams (19:26.685)
being taken advantage of.
Jeremy (19:29.184)
being taken advantage of financially, maybe your upper rank, your time.
Andrew Adams (19:38.077)
Mm -hmm.
Jeremy (19:40.672)
Andrew Adams (19:43.901)
the stress, just honesty, the stress of because you have an instructor that does not communicate well, just the stress of not knowing how things are gonna work out. That absolutely can cause issues for people. If.
Jeremy (19:44.384)
dishonesty.
Jeremy (19:59.328)
lack of clear expectations, lack of clear responsibilities, lack of clear boundaries, right? So that goes back to your open, clear communication statement, right? All those things kind of fall into there.
Andrew Adams (20:02.941)
Yep. Yep.
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Andrew Adams (20:12.317)
Yep. Just being in a stagnant place. And I don't mean just you personally, like the school just being stagnant and not having any growth. If you're looking for more, then that's going to be a problem.
Jeremy (20:27.264)
which usually, that usually tracks back to an instructor who really doesn't wanna do what they're doing. They see it only as a financial vehicle for them. And so their classes, let's say, are increasingly repetitive. They don't wanna do things to bring in new students. They're just kind of on the lather, rinse, repeat model of martial arts training.
Andrew Adams (20:39.261)
Mm -hmm.
Andrew Adams (20:51.645)
Yep, yep. And I think in that particular case, most, and I'm curious if you would agree, most of those types of instructors are probably not getting instruction themselves. And because they're happy, they're stagnant within themselves, so they are fine with their students also.
Jeremy (21:06.816)
One of the things and.
Jeremy (21:15.712)
I disagree with them being fine. They've accepted it and that's because here's what I want to say. I think most people out there know that I work with martial arts schools. I consult with them. The first thing that we have to solve for almost every school that I've worked with is the person at the top being passionate about their own training.
Andrew Adams (21:18.653)
Okay.
there.
Andrew Adams (21:36.669)
Mm -hmm. Yep.
Jeremy (21:37.76)
that if I've tried time and again, if we don't check that box, if I can't find a way to help them feel good about their training, unfortunately we've got great options with Whistlekick. I'm like, you need to meet some of these other schools and cross -training, come hang out with these great people. But if I can't get them to do that, they approach it solely as a business and there is nothing wrong with that other than.
Andrew Adams (21:51.325)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jeremy (22:03.424)
This is a very different kind of business. And if you don't have passion for what you are doing, you are teaching the people below you that it's not something to be passionate about. It's something that you just kind of do.
Andrew Adams (22:14.781)
Yeah. And I think that's a great point. And we did an episode on what makes a really good instructor. And one of the things at the top was that they recognize that there's still more to learn and they're still a student themselves. And I think that's an important piece.
Jeremy (22:32.512)
So we just laid out, I don't know, a dozen or so reasons under this heading of something's going wrong that is making you feel like it might be time to leave.
How do we know it's time to leave? How do you go from, I think it's time to leave, to I know it's time to leave? How do we give people some concrete process that they can go through?
Andrew Adams (22:58.493)
So, I mean, I'm going to preface this by saying everyone is different, right? Everyone will handle these things differently. And I think some of the things we talked about, physical abuse, sexual abuse, emotional abuse, those things are huge, immediate, boom, you're out of there for me, red flags. Like, doesn't matter, end of discussion. Some of the other things don't warrant the first time it happens, you leave.
Jeremy (23:28.32)
Right. Now, one of the things I will say, regardless of the issue, I think having a conversation is important. Now, there are exceptions, right? And I think it's incredibly narrow because what tends to happen in any group of people is rumors fly, right? So if you're hearing rumors that so -and -so is doing such -and -such under one of, you know, abuse in some way,
You have not witnessed it. You don't know for sure. I think you, I'm not going to necessarily say you have a responsibility, but I would encourage you to have a conversation because even if you choose to leave afterwards, let's say, let's say the worst of the worst, right? And I'm not even going to put words to it because it's that bad.
You think it's happening, you hear about it happening, even if you have already made up your mind because maybe you don't want to be associated with a place where that is even discussed as a possibility. If you go to the person, the instructor, and say, I'm hearing about this, whether or not it's true, I need to go, that might be enough to get it to stop.
Andrew Adams (24:42.237)
Mm -hmm. Yeah, that's fair.
Jeremy (24:44.736)
And I think that when you have the ability to...
you often have the responsibility to. There's a reason in my mind those words are so closely connected.
Andrew Adams (24:54.141)
though.
Yeah, that makes sense. The one thing I would add is if that is, if it's an abuse issue happening to you, I would understand not wanting to go and talk to you about it.
Jeremy (25:05.856)
That is different because now you can 100 % check that box. If I was at a school and you know what? I was at one. I was at a school and I've shared this story briefly. I was having a knee issue. I told the head instructor I'm having a knee issue. Assistant instructor was correcting my stance by kicking out the back of my knee because they didn't communicate. And I looked at him and I said, I'm having knee problems.
sorry, I didn't know. He was assuming the worst of me. That was enough for me. Okay, so we've got a communication issue, right? And so that was my last class. I didn't go back.
Andrew Adams (25:46.397)
Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I agree. Communication for sure.
Jeremy (25:53.024)
So, almost regardless, step one, as I'm thinking about this, I think I need to make this step. I think I need to go. I think it's time to leave. Hey, person in charge, I need to have a chat with you. Now, some schools have so many people and so many instructors at the top, you might not get to talk to that top person. Go as high in there as you can go.
And if you're not comfortable going that high, maybe it's someone you don't know well, go as high as you are comfortable. Have that conversation with someone. Because it doesn't necessarily mean that you're gonna get resolution.
Jeremy (26:34.144)
But like I said, if you care about that school at all, and if you're there, you do, right? If you're still there, you have some element that you care about the school and the people. You can do a lot of good on your way out the door and telling them.
Here's what's going on. Here's what I'm feeling. I'm going to go. I wanted you to know why, right? In business, it's an exit interview. You forcing your own exit interview could lead to a positive change in that school and the lives of other people. How often do we get to have a difficult 20 minute conversation that has the potential to make dozens or even hundreds of lives better? It's not common. Take the opportunity.
Andrew Adams (27:14.077)
Yeah, yeah. Here's what I will also add is that sometimes that's hard for multiple reasons. It could be hard because you as a person have a difficult time communicating, right? I recognize that. It could be hard because your instructor may be so difficult to communicate with that it makes it difficult for you to actually sit down with them and have a discussion with them.
Jeremy (27:38.272)
So what could you do in that case?
Andrew Adams (27:44.445)
Yeah, I mean, you write them a letter, text them, whatever. And there's a lot of nuance to this, right? And it makes it even more difficult when there are multiple things. In my case, there were multiple issues that led to me leaving the school that I just left. I can't tell you it was one thing. Yeah. And if it had been just one thing,
Jeremy (27:47.904)
That was a pen clicking, if you're listening.
Jeremy (28:09.92)
It's rarely one thing.
Andrew Adams (28:15.229)
I probably wouldn't have left. You know, I worked towards getting those that, you know, the communication was a big thing. You know, I don't, I don't expect any instructor to be able to, you know, respond to every single student's text message within five minutes, right? And I want to make it clear, the school that I left is very small. There are six adult students.
And I was the highest ranked student in the school. And if I, if I texted my instructor something, I wouldn't hear from him for three, four, five days. If ever I would show up at class and we would then talk about the thing that I asked him the question on. If that was the only issue, you know, I could live with that, but there are other things too, to think about.
Jeremy (29:09.28)
What we're talking about here, whether we're talking about the communication or we're talking about, I feel very strongly, you've got to have a conversation before you depart. It's because there's a relationship, right? If you and I are married and I want to divorce you, I have a responsibility to have a conversation with you, ideally, before I finalize that decision.
Andrew Adams (29:22.333)
Mm -hmm.
Jeremy (29:37.216)
Student -teacher is another kind of relationship. And a relationship carries responsibility on both sides. To sever that relationship without giving the other person the courtesy of a conversation, again, with the exception of these rare times when things are so absolutely toxic, it comes down for most people to, I'm afraid of the conflict.
Jeremy (30:07.968)
When you think you can't, that's when you need to.
And if you're being very clear with yourself, I'm unwilling to have this conversation because I'm scared of conflict, that doesn't absolve you of what I truly believe to be your responsibility to do so. Now, if it's my instructor is toxic and may fly off the handle and punch me in the face because I've heard about them doing it before, that's a whole different scenario. And I come back to writing a letter. Make the best effort you can in that place.
Andrew Adams (30:36.901)
Yeah, sure.
Andrew Adams (30:45.981)
Here's a question for you. What if you have, and I think I know the answer, but I'm throwing devil's advocate out at you. You are feeling disrespected or taken advantage of, used, we're not talking physical abuse or anything like that. And you have tried to make things work, but it's clear that your instructor has no intention of, not intention.
does not have the ability to fix the things that you are unhappy with and you just feel so dejected that you know there's no point, there's going to be no closure for you in having that conversation with the instructor.
Jeremy (31:34.688)
This is where I come back to, it's not just about you, right? Years ago, and it's funny that this episode comes to my mind so often, because I even remember when and where I recorded it. I recorded it in the car driving solo, martial arts as service.
The idea that martial art, that your participation in a martial arts class is exclusively selfish is, I think, a very inaccurate way to look at it. Because an instructor needs students in order to progress as an instructor. Your fellow students are better because you're there on the floor with them.
Right? Your participation lifts everything up. And so if you're going to remove yourself from that group, from that participation, every, regardless of whether it is justified, everyone else does suffer from your departure. And I believe that you have a responsibility to take that conversation, that exit interview, whatever you want to call it, as far as you can for their benefit.
I'm not saying that that conversation, that letter is going to change the result for you or for anyone else. In fact, quite often when you've made up your mind, that's when it's easiest to have this conversation or to write this letter or to send this email. And the reason I default to in -person is because communication problems usually arise in written communication.
Andrew Adams (33:02.991)
Yeah, that's a good point.
Andrew Adams (33:13.757)
Yeah, because you can't understand tone in a written.
Jeremy (33:16.544)
Right? More than 80 % of communication is nonverbal. Right? So if you can get across the table, across the desk, across the internet from somebody else, you can understand things a lot better. One of the things that I, and I hate this because I am very conflict diverse, but the moment I'm having a conversation with someone via email or text and I start to feel emotional about it, that's my trigger. I've got to be able to see you.
I've at least got to be able to hear you with a phone call, but ideally a zoom or in person. I've got to be able to do that because it's, it's that dip where you feel emotional that things are most likely to go awry.
Andrew Adams (34:02.781)
Yeah, yeah, and that makes sense.
Jeremy (34:09.248)
How do we sum all this up?
It's subjective. When is it time to leave? You know when it's time to leave. If you're being really honest with yourself, it's time to leave. If you have to ask the question, is it time to leave? It's probably not time to leave.
Andrew Adams (34:17.533)
Yeah. Yep.
Jeremy (34:28.64)
It's time to leave and right.
I have to do this, but I don't want to. That's when it's time to leave.
Andrew Adams (34:34.141)
Yep, yep. And that's where it was for me. That's where it was for me. You know, I had...
Jeremy (34:38.912)
You, you, we've started having these conversations a while ago. We've talked about this scenario for you for a little while.
Andrew Adams (34:47.229)
Yeah, it's been over a year, probably a couple of years. And, you know, after I left, I've been thinking more and more about it. Cause it just because I left doesn't mean that my feelings have gone away. Right. you know, it, the, what I think started to stem the issue for me was, and I can pinpoint it specifically. It was October of 2019. It's been almost five years, four years, four years. Yeah.
Jeremy (35:13.972)
Now, we're not going to dig into the specifics because we don't have to, but there is one point that we keep hitting and it's that conversation before you go. You had multiple conversations before you went. Are you glad that you did? Why?
Andrew Adams (35:27.005)
Mm -hmm. Yes. Yeah. And ultimately, because of the lack of communication I was getting, I had a hard time knowing whether I was going to, if there was class. Like in one particular instance, like I didn't know there was going to be class. So I sent, ultimately I sent a text message and said, you know, that my journey is taking me elsewhere. And, you know, I wished them well. And the response I got back was very nice. Like, you know, I'm...
I'm not terribly surprised. I think he saw the writing on the wall and saw that I was unhappy with things. And he said, you know, this isn't terribly surprising to me. You know, thank you so much. I wish you well.
Jeremy (36:09.184)
You were kind, you were respectful, you didn't feel the need to burn the house down. It was about you and what was best for you. And I think quite often, I think this might be the last point we need to mention to people, quite often when we make a decision, especially an emotional decision, because people make decisions based on emotion and then they backfill with logic.
Andrew Adams (36:13.853)
Nope. Nope.
Yes.
Jeremy (36:30.816)
You don't need to justify your decision to anyone at least on this subject right where you train first freedom of martial arts You don't need to justify where you train to anybody but yourself So if if you start feeling like okay, i'm gonna go And you start coming up with all these reasons And you're telling him well, you know because He did this or she did that in this and you're you're
Andrew Adams (36:42.493)
Yep. Yep.
Andrew Adams (36:56.765)
And this and this and this and this.
Jeremy (36:58.592)
and you feel like you need to defend yourself before anything's even happened, you run the risk of tearing the place down for other people. Don't do that to them. If you want to go because it doesn't work for you, just go. When you know it's time to go, it's time to go. But don't compromise other people's experience because they also have the freedom to train there just as you have the freedom to not.
Andrew Adams (37:10.269)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.
Andrew Adams (37:26.525)
Yeah, I can't, I agree wholeheartedly and I can't stress that enough. Even if, pause, unless the reason you left had something to do with abuse, the other students do not need to know why you're leaving. Right? You know, in my case, because as I mentioned earlier, very small school, six adult students at most when I was there.
And a couple of them were black belts that I'm fairly close to. I just sent them a short message and said, just so you know, I let Sensei know today that I'm no longer a student.
I just wanted you to hear from me before you heard from someone else. If you want to get together and have a beer to chat about it more, I'm happy to do so. But I wasn't like, these are all the mistakes that were made for me. My journey is different.
Jeremy (38:23.072)
Here's the difference. The communication you made with them, with these other students, you were making it for them, about them, versus if you're, hey, let's get together. I want to tell you all the things that Sensei screwed up. That's about you, right? And there's a big difference there and it's important to note that difference.
Andrew Adams (38:37.309)
Yeah, yeah, no. Correct.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. You know, and I just, you know, wanted them to have a heads up. So, because inevitably I knew that I would stop showing up in class and those students would start asking my instructor about it and it then could potentially put him in a weird situation. Yeah. And so I. Yeah.
Jeremy (38:59.648)
puts them in a funny place. Yeah, yeah, it's, again, you were being respectful to everyone, even on your way out the door. That's what a good martial artist does. A good martial artist has integrity and character and make sure to exemplify that in every action, not just including, but especially the ones that are difficult to do so.
Andrew Adams (39:07.013)
Yep. Yeah.
Andrew Adams (39:17.629)
Yeah, absolutely.
Jeremy (39:21.664)
the audience. Did we miss anything? Is there a scenario that's come up for you that we didn't talk about? If you want to talk about it publicly, here are a couple things you can do. You can comment at whistlekickmarshallartsradio .com. We have a separate page for every single episode. You can join the Facebook group, Martial Arts Radio, and talk about it there. But maybe you've got something you want to share privately. You can reach out to Andrew or I privately, Andrew at jeremy at whistlekick .com.
And if you tell us, hey, this is for your eyes only, we're not going to share it because we don't even share stuff with each other when people do that. We might summarize, hey, I got an email from a person and they generically said this because it's nice for us to know that. But unless they say, yeah, you can share this with Andrew or if we're in doubt, we don't share things between each other from from third parties because that's not what we do. But if nothing else, I hope this episode gives you some things to think about.
Andrew Adams (40:01.149)
Yeah.
Jeremy (40:17.888)
and some some ability to create some tools because unfortunately the longer you train the more likely you are to bump into a situation where you might need to go and go ahead.
Andrew Adams (40:26.749)
Yep. And remember that you are not alone.
Jeremy (40:32.8)
really important to know. So...
Be honest with yourself, maintain your own integrity, your own code, and you'll be fine even if it means there are some difficult things that have to happen right away. If you want to engage with us further, I gave you a few ways, but our social media is at Whistlekick, everywhere you can think of. Remember, if you have a martial arts school and you're not part of WK Alliance, you should be. WKAlliance .com, check that out.
Patreon, buy a t -shirt, buy a hoodie, buy a training program because the more we're able to receive those funds, the more good things we can do to help you, your fellow students, and the industry as a whole. Anything else Andrew to add? Alright. So that takes us to the end and until next time, train hard, smile, have a great day. That was so awful.
Andrew Adams (41:17.821)
No, I think that's good.
Andrew Adams (41:22.973)
Train hard, smile, and have a great day.
Jeremy (41:30.4)
We're so out of practice on that, that's okay.
Andrew Adams (41:31.549)
We should get in the habit of train hard and have a great day.
Jeremy (41:35.136)
Smile.