Episode 907 - 2 Schools of Thought: Rank Stripes or not
In this episode, Jeremy and Andrew tackle their next topic in their new series: 2 Schools of Thought. They take a topic and look at 2 different ways to do it, exploring pros and cons of both.
2 Schools of Thought: Rank Stripes or Not - Episode 907
SUMMARY
In this episode, Jeremy and Andrew discuss the use of rank stripes on martial arts belts. 2 schools of thought. You can have them, or you can not. They start by introducing the Whistlekick belt, made by Kataaro, and its unique design. The conversation then delves into the different perspectives on rank stripes, with Jeremy expressing his dislike for stripes used as a way to brag. Andrew shares his evolving views on rank stripes and how they can be beneficial in showing progression. They also discuss the benefits of not having rank stripes and the potential issues that can arise with their use. The episode concludes with a call for feedback from listeners.
TAKEAWAYS
*Rank stripes can be a way to show progression and encourage continued training.
*The use of rank stripes should not be solely motivated by ego or bragging.
*Not having rank stripes can simplify the belt system and reduce the emphasis on rank.
*Different schools have different approaches to rank stripes, and there is no right or wrong way.
CHAPTERS
00:00 Introduction and Sponsorship
01:06 Discussion about the Whistlekick belt
05:18 Personal experiences with rank stripes
07:00 Different approaches to rank stripes
08:24 Disagreement with stripes used for bragging
09:20 Change in perspective on rank stripes
10:48 Rank stripes as a way to show progression
12:16 Rank stripes for differentiation and consistency
13:04 Potential issues with rank stripes
14:26 Benefits of not having rank stripes
16:12 Rank stripes as a tool for understanding progress
20:37 Exploring alternative approaches to rank
21:33 Closing thoughts and call for feedback
After listening to the episode, it would be exciting for us to know your thoughts about it.
This episode is sponsored by Kataaro. Please check out their site at Kataaro Custom Martial Arts Products - Kataaro. And use the code WK10 to save 10% off your order. And be sure to ask them about a wholesale account for school owners!
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Show Transcript
Jeremy (00:02.937)
What's going on everybody welcome? It's whistlekick martial arts radio and on today's episode Andrew and I are talking about putting stripes on your belt or your sash rank stripes if you will and whether or not This is a good idea for You it's another two schools of thought episode stick around. I hope you enjoy this. We like doing these and
This episode is sponsored by Katara, which is kind of fitting, right? We're talking about belts, we're talking about stripes. And...
If you didn't know, they have a free Stripe for Life program, but that's actually not what we're talking about today. They made our request. We worked with them. We went back and forth. They made this utterly amazing belt. Mine just came out of the wash. Andrew, you have yours there, don't you? Can you, can you show it off on one side? It's black with white embroidery. And on the other side, it's white with black embroidery. And you think, oh, okay, Jeremy, that's, that's pretty cool. You know, it's, it's two, it's two halves.
Andrew Adams (00:51.773)
I do. Yeah.
Jeremy (01:06.109)
contrasting embroidery, except it's even cooler than that. Because as the white wears away, there's a black cord. The black wears away, there's a white cord. This idea that you're never done training. There's just such great stuff going on at Kataro, and we love being able to partner with them. And I think you're gonna see more and more people at Whistlekick events wearing this belt. Because it really just, it's the Whistlekick ethos of just, you're always a black, you're always a student, right? You're always a white belt. You're forever.
Andrew Adams (01:33.058)
You're forever a student.
Jeremy (01:36.333)
a student. And, you know, check out, go ahead, you want to say something.
Andrew Adams (01:40.258)
I was gonna say one of the things that I appreciated probably the most about this, which I didn't realize until I got it. Cause I just, it wasn't something that occurred to me. It wasn't something I thought of, which is that on the black side, and I'm gonna describe it for those that are only listening. On the black side, you see the white embroidery that has the Whistlekick logo and says Whistlekick. And I have another embroidered belt from another company.
and you can see what it shows on one side. But when you flip it over and you look at the other side, you see the reverse embroidered because it's been embroidered all the way through. But on this belt, correct. This one was, yeah.
Jeremy (02:14.981)
They sewed the whole thing together and then embroidered it. Kotaro embroidered the two halves and then sewed it together, which is so much more work. Yeah.
Andrew Adams (02:22.926)
Absolutely. So when I flip it over and it's the white side, it's got the embroidery in black, but you can read it. It's not the background image of it. Now the other thing, because this episode is going to be talking about rank stripes. Two schools of thought. Does your school black belts? Do you use rank stripes or do you not? There's no right or wrong. It's whatever you choose to do for your school, but in this whistle kick
forever what many people are calling the forever student belt. That's not what it is on their website. It's the whistle kick master.
Jeremy (03:01.645)
If you go to Katara's website and search Whistlekick, it's the only thing that's gonna show up. It's the embroidered deluxe Whistlekick black, white master belt.
Andrew Adams (03:07.506)
Yeah, yeah. But my friend, our friend, friend of the show, Abby, she got one and like me, she got her name on it as well. And she put her rank stripes on it, which is fine. But what's really cool and something I hadn't thought of, when she has the black side out, it has her name in white and it has her stripes in white. But when she's wearing the white side out,
Jeremy (03:21.094)
Hmm.
Jeremy (03:33.222)
Mm-hmm.
Andrew Adams (03:36.818)
It has her name in black, but the stripes are in white. So the stripes are there, but it's not overtly advertising that she's got rank, which was a very subtle touch that I would not have thought.
Jeremy (03:47.897)
Yeah, yeah, it's, there are a lot of details that come through when you put this together. And I would encourage everybody out there, check it out. This is not an inexpensive belt because it's not an inexpensive belt, right? Good things cost money, but you can use the code WK10, save 10% at katarokataro.com. All their belts are handmade to order, so you're not gonna get it next day. It's made for you to your specific.
Requirements and length and even the belt we're talking about here can be made with other colors if you love the concept You just got to talk to them. They'll make whatever you can make and I think I mentioned this Somewhere before on a different episode if you can come up with something that you want that they can't make I'll give you a hundred bucks That's not coming from them. That's coming from me. So Yep But it can't be ridiculous and just a reminder if you're a school they have wholesale programs. They do some other cool stuff So make sure you check
Andrew Adams (04:34.134)
there you go. Yep. Cool.
Jeremy (04:45.069)
And thank you to Kataro for your support. Well, that was a great intro to talking about belts, right? And rank and all the things that go along with it, right? Just the idea of that belt and all the different ways you could consider it. And here we are, we're considering stripes, what some schools call bars on their belts. And it's a subject that I think sometimes people get.
Andrew Adams (04:52.799)
soul.
Jeremy (05:13.105)
very passionate about. I think that's the best way to determine it. Do you have stripes on your belt?
Andrew Adams (05:18.574)
So it's interesting. The first school I trained at as a kid, I don't remember what the black belts did, to be honest, because I was in middle school. Yeah, I was a couple of years ago. The Shotokan school that I trained at, you were given a plain black belt and when you tested for more Don ranks, you would just put white tape.
Jeremy (05:31.481)
It was a couple years ago.
Andrew Adams (05:48.318)
or yellow tape, electrical tape on the end, and that would signify if you wanted. You were open to go purchase your own belt that was a nice belt that was embroidered with stuff with stripes if you wanted to. It wasn't frowned upon, but you didn't have to, but just putting tape on the ends was fine. The school that I met, what's that? Yeah, yeah, because it was cheap, as opposed to going to buy a...
Jeremy (06:07.333)
That's what most people did, it sounds like. They just, most people would use tape, is what it sounds like. Yeah. Sure.
Andrew Adams (06:18.114)
an expensive imperative belt. The school that I'm at now, every black belt has a black belt with no rank stripes whatsoever. And my feeling on the subject has changed in my evolution of training, which I find interesting. When I really sat down and thought about it, it's really kind of gone back and forth and I flip-flopped. And we'll talk about some of the pros and cons, but...
The school I'm at right now does not do any differentiation between Shodan and Nidan and Sandan. You know, different levels of black belt. How about yourself?
Jeremy (07:00.509)
So growing up, we didn't do stripes. And, you know, the only time somebody wore other than a plain black belt is if their instructor, you know, my instructor's instructor, when they awarded them rank, awarded them a different belt. You know, so it might be a red and white, what's in karate often referred to as a wrenchy belt, right? I saw that happen.
but most of the time through that school there were no stripes. Other schools I trained at did stripes. I threw there's only one school I only have one belt with stripes and it's because it was it was given to me and I have worn it but I prefer to wear a plain belt.
Right. And I think that we can probably, and this is where I think we're going to come at this in the different ways, the two schools, the thing that they're going to have in common is they're doing what works for their school. Right. So, so here, here's where I think for me, this becomes really simple. Here's where I don't like stripes when it is used as a way to brag.
Andrew Adams (08:08.974)
Absolutely.
Jeremy (08:24.445)
There are, and this is where if you watch any of Master Ken's stuff, right? He added the second belt to add more stripes as in an arrogant way, right? It's tongue in cheek, it's humorous, but it is making fun of a certain type of martial artist who needs you to know what rank they are.
And I think if that's the reason you're putting stripes on your belt, that I'm not okay with.
Andrew Adams (08:52.298)
Mm-hmm, sure. So when I was a kid, and even in my second Shodokan school, I was younger, I was in my 20s, and I was like, yeah, I want people to see that I'm a, I was a sandana at the time, I was a third degree black belt. It's like, I want people to see that I'm a third degree black belt, like, you know, and it definitely came from an inner place of, not bragging per se, but like,
wanting people to, it came from, yeah, pride. That's a good thing. And then when I moved to my new school, the school that I'm at now, which, you know, I came to the school in my 40s, everybody wears a plain black belt. My instructor's a fourth degree black belt. He wears a belt. I can't say a plain black belt because he does have Kanji embroidered on it, but it doesn't have rank stripes. And...
Jeremy (09:21.253)
It's pride. Yeah.
Andrew Adams (09:50.794)
I started doing this podcast and my view of martial arts changed immensely. And I came about in my thinking and my philosophy and I'm like, you know what? And again, this is how I used to feel. I used to think, you know what? I am dead set against rank stripes. Why should we put rank stripes on belts? I don't get it. I think that it's just an ego thing and who cares that I'm a second degree black belt in my school.
and my belt is plain black. That's how I used to feel. I have changed my mind since then. Don't send, don't at me everybody. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, you know, I, much like you, I felt like if you need to put those on to be boastful about how important you are, that's not great. However, my mind was changed.
Jeremy (10:29.97)
Not yet anyway, let him finish
Andrew Adams (10:48.354)
during Marshall Summit this year. And this is kind of where this episode kind of started to formulate in my head. And for the younger students, and it started out by calling black belts different things, but for the younger students, and I don't mean age-wise, I mean, you know, the people that the under black belts, they see my belt as a second degree black belt.
and they see my instructor's belt as a fourth degree black belt, and they see another student as a first degree black belt, we all have the same belt. To them, the under black belt student, there's no differentiation. There's no delineation. And it's not that my instructor is better than me. I mean, I think in a lot of ways he is. But it's not just that. Yeah, exactly. That's why I go take lessons from him.
Jeremy (11:41.917)
That's why he's the instructor.
Andrew Adams (11:46.97)
I do think there's something to be said for showing younger students that once you get black belt, it's not done. You then can continue on. How many of us, I mean, you listening to this podcast in your car or at work or whatever, raise your hand if you know of a black belt that got their black belt and then left. Go ahead, raise your hand. I'm going to raise my hand. We all know that if you're driving, keep one hand on the wheel.
Jeremy (12:08.581)
Yeah.
Andrew Adams (12:15.114)
We all know that that's happened. And I'm not saying that this is the only reason that's happened, but I think we as a culture could do a better job of helping show that black belt is not the end. That once you get your black belt, there are other levels that you can still continue to train. And I think rank stripes can help with that.
Jeremy (12:16.817)
We sure do.
Jeremy (12:38.213)
They absolutely can. Yeah, I think you're right. I think, you know, we have talked about the terrible job that we do in the martial arts of letting people know that earning your black belt is not the end point. It is not the goal. Can be a goal, but hopefully your goal is lifelong training. And I am fully aware that a black belt that you might earn and never put on a different one, never add stripes, never anything.
can make that process a little or that perception a little less clear. I'm very I'm very aware of that. I think that there is absolutely value. You're talking about it in terms of hierarchy and stratification. We do that in the colored belts. Why wouldn't we do that in the advanced ranks? If we're going to differentiate between white and yellow and blue, etc. Why would we not differentiate between first and second and third degree black belts?
And I'm right there with you. And I think it does make sense for consistency. I think it can make it easier when someone starts to understand how things are arranged and what the hierarchy is and who to go to on, on things. And that's why I go back and I underscore if the only reason, or if the primary reason that someone is doing it is for excessive pride, I want everybody to be proud of what they've learned and a belt is generally.
Andrew Adams (13:52.436)
Hmm.
Jeremy (14:02.517)
in outward manifestation of what you have learned, your skill. People should be proud of that. I'm proud of what I have learned. I am proud of what I can do. I know you are as well, Andrew, and I think you should be. So for me, the only place that I'm really carving off and saying, I disagree with this, is a pretty narrow subset. And it is not most people. Most people are not.
Andrew Adams (14:26.45)
Yeah, yeah, I would agree. Now, having said that, I came down, I don't wanna say pretty hard, but how I feel that I think rank stripes can be a really good thing. I think that if you have a school, if your school doesn't do rank stripes, I think that that's totally fine as well. And there can be some benefit to that as well. That it, to the outside student, it doesn't look like, and again,
I'm talking the outside student, student from another school doesn't look like your, or students are all about the rank, right? It can be perceived as being a little more humble than if you're a fourth degree black belt and you were just wearing a plain black belt, right? There's nothing wrong with that. And I think there's something to be said for that too.
Jeremy (15:16.101)
You know, we're talking about it in terms of black belt rank, but stripes do exist on other belts. You know, I grew up in a tradition that had three Qs of brown belt, right? And there are plenty of schools, okay? There are plenty of schools that have stripes to denote half ranks. And I've seen some schools, especially youth programs, where they might have a whole bunch of stripes. Sometimes it's, you know, general demarcation of their progress. Sometimes it's...
Andrew Adams (15:26.552)
Me too.
Jeremy (15:43.109)
You know, you need a red stripe to denote your progress in this and yellow in this, right? So they color-code it. And you can tell right from there, the way I'm saying this, there are ways you can do this that I think are really healthy and others that are not. Again, where I have an issue, it's the same issue that I draw regardless of whether or not we're talking about stripes. I draw, I apply the same issue to rank and title. It's if the only motivation is this. If you have created a culture where the only time people try.
is so they can get the next Stripe Belt Rank title, then I think you are missing out. I think there are things you could be doing in a more healthy way. But if we scale it down, right? And obviously the higher this example I'm going to go, goes in rank, the less relevant it is. But let's imagine that you are part of a large school, hundreds of students, and you're helping out in a class that has
Andrew Adams (16:15.566)
thing.
Jeremy (16:40.077)
a number of low to middle rank students. If they have different stripes, you can know, okay, you know, maybe this particular belt, people are generally nine to 15 months in that rank. There's a big difference between nine and 15 months of knowledge. So you can say, oh, okay, this person's got a stripe or two stripes. I know roughly where they are and it can help you dial in, in the same way that having different color belts helps you. It's just, it's more of the same there. So there is of course some...
Andrew Adams (16:56.039)
Oh sure.
Andrew Adams (17:05.142)
Yep.
Jeremy (17:09.969)
Relevance for short.
Andrew Adams (17:11.358)
Yeah, and going back to the other side, not having any stripes allows you to continue to wear the same belt. And, you know, a lot of people when you not a lot of people, the more and more you wear your belt, the belt gets worn. And I don't mean that as a pun, but it works. Yeah, and starts to wear through and get different color, you know, the lighter color on the inside, unless you're wearing the forever student belt, in which case it's
Jeremy (17:30.553)
It gets worn out.
Andrew Adams (17:41.23)
could wear to black. But anyway, that's one of the reasons that if you were, you know, that people would not want to get rank stripes, get a new belt, let me say that, get a new belt with stripes, is then you, every X number of years, you've got a new belt and you've spent all that time wearing in your other one and now you've got a brand new belt.
Jeremy (18:04.314)
Nobody likes propeller belt.
Andrew Adams (18:06.142)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. But that would be, again, another reason you could go to Kataro. Send your old belt to them and they put the embroidery on it and then send it back. Then you still have the same belt. But can you think of any other benefits to not having rank stripes? Like in our school, we've got our fourth degree black belt and first degree black belt both wearing a plain black belt. What other benefits do we have there?
Jeremy (18:29.125)
I think it's just simpler from a logistical perspective, right? If I misplace my belt, it's simpler to replace, or to borrow. It.
Andrew Adams (18:31.467)
Yeah, exactly.
Jeremy (18:45.685)
It down prioritizes rank, right? It maintains, and this is the main reason I don't do strips. I absolutely value the tradition of martial arts and progression and rank and everything. But for me...
And there are things that we could go into with this about my own personal growth and everything, but I don't need people to know what rank I am. In fact, I really don't want people to know what rank I am. Most of the time I have found that when people find out my ranks, it invites conversation or challenge or things. And we see that there are plenty of times you could post the same video on social media of you doing something pretty darn good.
If you have a plain black belt, you'll get a certain type and number of comments. The more stripes you put on it, the more criticism you're going to receive.
Andrew Adams (19:44.138)
Yeah, yeah. The simplicity thing was the one I was thinking of, that, you know, if your school has plain black belts with nothing on them, and you lose it, or you misplace it or whatever, at the school someone accidentally grabs it because it looks like theirs or whatever, of course it looks like theirs because they're all the same, right? It's easier to replace and deal with. So that's definitely a benefit for sure.
Jeremy (20:11.921)
Yeah, I think and we've talked about this and this is just kind of a tangent to let people know that I continue to think about this. I think we've reached a point where we have jumped the charts, so to speak, in terms of rank. I think there are so many schools that are awarding very high ranks to people who are going to be training another 40 to 50 years that they're going to run, they're just going to run out of room.
Andrew Adams (20:36.691)
Yep
Jeremy (20:37.261)
And that suggests, right, like that's kind of silly in a sense because, well, does that mean you're not gonna progress between now and when you die? And I find that to be odd. I think there are schools that are gonna start doing some things differently. We've talked about that and I'm thinking about that and I just thought of one right now. You know, we know if we go way, way back to Kano's Judo setup, right, it was certificates and then it was white and black belt. What if it was white belt?
Andrew Adams (20:44.567)
Yeah.
Jeremy (21:06.009)
And you bought a really nice Katara white belt, and then you got your yellow belt, and they embroidered a yellow stripe. And they embroidered a blue stripe, right? Like maybe you could, my headphones keep falling off. It's very annoying there. It's the problem with hats, right? The button is in the wrong spot. Anyway, that could be something maybe that people do. I don't know, but I look forward to, and I hope other people out there, if you're doing kind of different, cool, creative things around Rank, I would love to hear it.
Andrew Adams (21:11.313)
Mm.
Andrew Adams (21:33.502)
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, let us know in the comments on the YouTube page or on the Facebook page when this is released. That would be really cool. Yeah.
Jeremy (21:41.133)
or email us. Yeah. What else do we want to add in here? Are there situations we haven't accounted for?
Andrew Adams (21:47.728)
Um.
Andrew Adams (21:50.85)
If there are, I hope our listeners will let us know. I mean, two schools of thought. Do you put rank stripes on your black belts, or any belts, I suppose, or do you not? There are, there's no right way. Whatever's right for your school. Hopefully we've given you some things to think about. And it's okay for your mind to be changed. Mine certainly did when I, from, yeah.
Jeremy (21:54.013)
Yeah, I don't know that there's... go ahead.
Yeah.
Jeremy (22:17.317)
Yeah, you've changed a couple times, it sounds like.
Andrew Adams (22:20.291)
And that's okay.
Jeremy (22:22.125)
And I'll admit that initially, if we go back again, and it's through the conversations on this show and getting exposure to a lot of different people, I used to be dead set against stripes. I saw it as only ego. I do not see it that way anymore. I think it can be, but I also think it is often not, usually not.
But I think that in those environments, we need to be careful that it does not creep into solely or primarily ego.
Andrew Adams (22:59.979)
I dig it.
Jeremy (23:02.521)
Yeah, so let us know. Andrew gave you the ideas there. You can email us, andr Haven't made the shout for a while. Sign up for our newsletter. We've actually just redoubled our efforts on the newsletter. I worked it out. It's coming out tomorrow. Lots of original content. If you love Whistlekick stuff, if you're like, I'll read Marshall Journal and I follow the social media and I watch and listen to their show. I want all the good stuff. Well, newsletter. And you can sign up at.
any of our websites, whis whistlekick.com. And don't forget to support Kataro. Check out what they've got going on over there. They're adding, in the same way we are, they're often adding new stuff. So k-a-t-a-a-r-o.com, use the code WK10, capital letters, to save yourself 10%. School owners, make sure you sign up for their wholesale account. And we know of at least one school that's standardized on black belts from Kataro because of the rank stripes.
and the fact that they can continue to get them in. And it was fun to find that out because it's somebody that I've known for a long time and I didn't even realize because...
They don't make a big thing out of it. But if you take a look at them, all of their black belts have looked really good and have looked really good for a long time. They wear barely. Yeah, it's pretty awesome. Yeah, it's consistent. That's really nice. And our social media, if you wanna follow us, at Whistlekick, if you have a guest suggestion or a topic suggestion, we wanna hear it. You can write to us, it's the easiest way to do it. But we appreciate all of you watching and listening.
Andrew Adams (24:19.995)
and they all look the same. Like the embroidery is the same, the font is, like it's all uniform, which is really cool.
Jeremy (24:43.101)
Two schools of thought, what's yours? Until next time, train hard, smile, and have a great day.