Episode 902 - Mr. Tim Roettiger

In today's episode Jeremy sits down in person and chats with Tim Roettiger, a Jeet Kune Do practitioner in New Hampshire.

Mr. Tim Roettiger - Episode 902

SUMMARY
In this episode, Jeremy discusses with Mr. Tim Roettiger his journey into martial arts, his training experiences, and the popularity of Jeet Kune Do. They also delve into the debate between the originalist and concept approaches in Jeet Kune Do, as well as the legacy of Bruce Lee. In this conversation, Mr. Roettiger discusses his approach to martial arts training and teaching, specifically in the context of Jeet Kune Do. He emphasizes the importance of learning techniques and applying them situationally, rather than focusing on memorizing forms. He also highlights the limitations of defined martial arts styles and the need for adaptability and variation within training. He discusses the balance between high volume training and practicality, as well as the value of individuality in martial arts. He also emphasizes the importance of open-mindedness, continuous learning, and the transition from being a warrior to a sage in martial arts.

TAKEAWAYS
*Mr. Roettiger's journey into martial arts started later in life, but he has always had an interest in athletic pursuits.
*He trained with a Jeet Kune Do instructor who emphasized simplicity and functionality.
*He now runs his own martial arts school, Red Tiger Martial Arts, and trains students in an eclectic approach, incorporating elements from various styles.
*The popularity of Jeet Kune Do is debated, with some arguing that Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and Muay Thai are more popular, while others believe that traditional martial arts styles still remain popular. Focus on learning techniques and applying them situationally, rather than memorizing forms.
*Recognize the limitations of defined martial arts styles and embrace adaptability and variation within training.
*Balance high volume training with practicality and focus on combinations and footwork.
*Embrace individuality in martial arts training and teaching, allowing students to develop their own strengths and styles.
*Be open-minded and continuously learn from others, avoiding the insecurity of resisting outside training.
*Value character and morality in martial arts, striving to be a sage rather than just a warrior.
*Teach non-violence and conflict resolution as important aspects of self-defense.

CHAPTERS
00:00 Introduction and Background
02:52 The Journey into Martial Arts
08:10 Training with the First Instructor
16:01 Training Solo and Forming Red Tiger Martial Arts
27:08 The Originalist vs. Concepts Debate
30:08 Bruce Lee's Legacy and the Evolution of Martial Arts
31:35 Learning Techniques and Applying Them Situationally
32:29 The Limitations of Defined Martial Arts Styles
33:24 The Freedom and Variation within Martial Arts
34:19 Adaptability and Individualization in Jeet Kune Do
35:03 Teaching and Learning Differently in Jeet Kune Do
36:23 Balancing High Volume Training with Practicality
37:13 High Volume Training vs. Combination Training
37:51 The Limitations of Mimicking Bruce Lee's Training
38:59 The Importance of Individuality in Martial Arts Training
41:17 The Insecurity of Instructors Who Resist Outside Training
42:08 The Value of Learning from Students
43:24 The Importance of Open-Mindedness in Martial Arts
44:24 The Balance Between Leadership and Instruction
45:26 The Importance of Individuality in Martial Arts
48:07 The Diversity of Martial Arts and the Lack of Standardization
49:17 The Different Meanings of Rank in Martial Arts
50:23 The Importance of Character and Morality in Martial Arts
51:55 The Transition from Warrior to Sage in Martial Arts
52:57 The Importance of Avoiding Conflict in Self-Defense
55:20 Applying Martial Arts Principles to Real-Life Situations
57:40 Creating a Consistent Jeet Kune Do Group
59:39 Finding the Sweet Spot in Martial Arts Instruction
01:00:31 The Importance of Teaching Non-Violence and Conflict Resolution

Show Notes

Connect with Mr. Tim Roettiger through his school facebook page:

Red Tiger Martial Arts and Meditation

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Show Transcript

Jeremy (00:00.782)

How's it going everybody? Welcome to another episode of Whistlekick, a martial arts radio. Today I'm joined by Tim Rediger and as always I'm Jeremy Lesniak. Thank you for joining us. We're going to, I don't know what we're going to talk about today, but we're going to find out in a minute. If you want to support us, remember whistlekick.com. Check out all the things that we're doing, everything from Whistlekick Alliance, the program that we run, organize for martial arts schools, to our Patreon for behind the scenes content, to the store.

And then you can save 15% on anything in the store with the code podcast15. Tim, thanks for being here. Yeah, thanks for having me. Yeah, you trained with us yesterday, you were at Marshall Summit. Yeah, that was a good time. Yeah. Yeah, it was nice to get out and meet new people. I tend to, I'm not narrow in my experience. I like to get out.

see different things. And that's for everything in life, but yeah. Martial arts too. Were you always like that with martial arts? Yeah, I think to a point, I came into it in a formalized setting pretty late. I did a little bit here and there. Growing up, I had a lot of friends that were into it, but my parents were dead against it. Really? So I kind of learned.

haphazardly. You had to learn on the side from friends who were training. And then later, friends who were ex-military guys and things like that. And also just being a biologist, when you're in that, in your college years and your whatnot, a lot of seasonal jobs. So you really couldn't commit to, you know, a lot of the schools are like, oh well you got to pay for a year up front. And it's like,

Well, you know, I don't know where I'm gonna be in three or four months. And so my actual formalized training started a little later, but it was pretty good. And that first instructor, he was great. And he had a very strict focus in what in the Jeet Kune Do world might be considered what they call originalist, kind of the most basic form of it.

Jeremy (02:22.39)

But since then, I've kind of expanded a little bit. But that's how I've kind of been with everything. I remember even in graduate school, once I was reading a book on grizzly bears while I was running a huge data set. And one of the professors on my committee comes in, and he's like, why are you reading a book on grizzly bears? He's like, you're a fish biologist. I said, well, it's interesting to me. And he literally walks away shaking his head. But to me, and I see that integration.

And again, later in my career, we saw that where parvovirus came to Isle Royal National Park and that resulted in the northern pike fish having poor growth rates. And so you see that cascade from the parvovirus to the wolf to the moose to the vegetation to the fish.

And so I kind of carry that attitude into the martial arts in a lot of ways. I tend to try to look for commonalities. Sure. I think one of the things that we do poorly as an industry is we look for the differences. When I'd much rather look for the commonalities, because once we build that, then the differences actually become an asset. Yeah. You know, OK, you do it this way. I do it this way. Let's compare notes. Let's figure out why, because maybe I like your way better or vice versa. And yeah, that's cool.

You mentioned your first instructor. What changed in your life that you were able to settle down enough that you could commit to a school? And why did you pick that school? Well, it sort of picked me. I, at that point, just because of the situation...

I had left the Fish and Wildlife Service. I had a mega commute and it was not doing well for my health. So I had my minimum retirement, took a different job. We were building the brewery and I was working in a warehouse. And one of the other warehouse workers, he was a big JKD guy. I had trained with some of the bigger names like Ted Wong, who was one of Bruce Lee's direct students amongst others. And he just started doing stuff in the...

Jeremy (04:32.384)

in the warehouse and I found it really appealed to me because of its emphasis on simplicity and functionality, things like that. How do you wanna say?

Like with the one inch punch, which I think sometimes gets a little misunderstood, but that idea of bringing everything to bear in a single point, okay? Now, athletically, I was a sprinter. And to me, the analogy there was coming out of the blocks. That focusing absolutely everything to coming out of the blocks. Now you're focusing everything to the punch. Especially if you're a sprinter, we're talking up to what, 100 meters? Yeah, well, 400.

Usually now some people run the 800. I ran the 400 in high school. That was not as print for me, but I understand that it can be if you're actually a good runner. But races are, especially the shorter the distance, are built on how you come out of the box. So it becomes really critical. That focus on a single thing and then maximizing the power. And so that...

those two kind of were analogous. And the thing for me is I did a little boxing as a kid. That was weird. My parents didn't want martial arts, didn't want us riding big wheels because we'd get killed, but they got us boxing. But boxing was okay. Yeah. How interesting. Yeah, you know, I'm still trying to figure it out. But so I was used to what you'd consider like, I guess the traditional stance. So this is my strong hand. So I'm out here, jab, drop the bomb there.

Well...

Jeremy (06:10.07)

Marcus got me switched around. He's like, do it, lead your strong hand forward and that vertical fist and that line of power. And it was very interesting because we were, you know, punching the bags of feed in the warehouse. And I went from pump, it can hit it hard. I could, and I literally blow the bag up. I could go right into it and ended up having to buy a couple of bags of feed. But fortunately we got enough horses and chickens, you know, we can make use of it.

That's what kind of got me sort of hooked on, if you will, is like, well, I just went from zero to 60 very quickly. And yeah, so that was really my initiation into the more organized aspect of martial arts. So there's an important point to put in here because we often, unfortunately, I think, martial arts is seen as a youthful pursuit, whether only for or you at least need to, quote, need to start as a child. But you.

very much not a child. No. It was uh

Oh gosh, I was probably in my early 40s by then. I can't remember the exact year. Not a common age to start. No, no. But you know, I'd always had interest in athletic pursuits and was trying to remain active. And you know, like I said, I had little things here and there throughout the years. And you know, it's one of my favorite lines from an old movie is,

Fistful of dollars where one of the characters says, sometimes a man's whole life depends on a mere scrap of information. Well, that's how I look at a lot of things in life is like you pick stuff up and it may not seem important now but you can carry it to later. And so that's just kind of how I looked at things. And so, yeah, I picked up little scraps along the way and I had, you know, did, I guess, pretty good, you know,

Jeremy (08:10.664)

I do a little training here and there, but mainly I was more focused on the cycling and the running and a little bit of power lifting there, but I kind of stopped that after a few years just because that's a lot of weight. That's a lot of weight, it can take its toll. And yeah, so this was just like another thing to try and it worked for me. I liked it. I've been doing it ever since. What were those early formalized experiences like?

I'm assuming you were in a class environment. No, it was mostly one-on-one. Yeah. His experience in JKD, and JKD in general tends to work on smaller groups type thing. Sure. That's been a lot. So that was how he had come up. So it was often me and maybe one or two other people, and so it was a one-on-one thing.

So it could be pretty intensive, which was nice. I mean, if you made any mistake, it was right there. It wasn't like you were on the other side of the room and he didn't see it. Yeah, so it was really good. And it just clicked with me and it moved well. Obviously there was some physiology to get used to it, but it just...

fit, you know, like I'd find that things you'd be like, okay, now we're gonna learn this. And then it would be like, oh, I've been doing this all along. So it was correct. Even though maybe in the past, when I was working with someone else briefly, they'd be like, oh, this is totally wrong. And so it just, for whatever reason, it just really seemed to fall together for me.

So of course we can't really bring up Jeet Kune Do without talking about Bruce Lee because here he's been gone 50 years and he's still the most recognizable martial artist of all time, at least in the modern era. Were you as a kid at all a Bruce Lee fan? Did you watch the movies? Like is that part of your journey? Not entirely. When I was a kid in Green Bay, they used to have on the Sunday mornings and stuff, you know, or Saturdays, whatever it was,

Jeremy (10:18.932)

They'd have the cartoons and then the Harold Lloyd short movies and then it was the old You know the really corny kung fu movies, you know, like guys biting swords and stuff and we had some fun with that But it was interesting. We were also coming into the whole ninja thing and in the school I went to Martial arts unfortunately

became like a mini gang thing, you know? There was one school that had started giving kids multi-degree black belts. And so there was this group of kids in school that were all second degree black belts and they were gonna whoop out on the whole school, you know? And the ninja things started. Yeah, and you know, there's these gangs of kids that were like, you know, we're ninjas, we got a secret ninja camp, you know? And they claimed that they were trained by a ninja who snuck into the country and all this.

Did they have the boots? The two-pronged, the tabby boots? I don't remember for sure, but I know one guy got kicked out of Boy Scout camp because he darted someone. He made his little ninja darts knee. He drilled someone with a dart and got tossed out of Scout camp. So that atmosphere was kind of something that was a little bit of a turnoff really for me. And that kind of carried over. And then when I got...

my family moved from Green Bay over to Hudson, then I really got into like track and stuff. So I kind of consumed my time.

kind of didn't really pay much attention to it after that. So, but yeah, so it really wasn't like I start out with the whole Bruce Lee thing, which a lot of guys do. Absolutely. And I mean, the fan base is strong. For sure, for sure. Anytime we put an episode out that mentions Bruce Lee, positively or negatively, it's guaranteed to get some feedback, which is why I think so many

Jeremy (12:22.528)

channels you know across the internet still focus on Bruce Lee because yeah and it gets I don't know how you want to say the conversation gets weird at times there's almost a tendency to idolize him I'd say it's beyond tendency yeah there was I saw somebody put something up

So first I saw recently, fairly recently, Michael Jai White was...

received a bit of feedback for saying, for answering. Someone had asked him the question, would you beat Bruce Lee in a fight? Or it came up, I forget if it was asked directly, but that was the subject. And he said, look, Bruce Lee was 135 pounds, I'm 225, 235, right? That hundred pounds matters a lot. And he took a lot of flack.

And then more recently than that, Mike Tyson. The same thing saying, look, in his prime, of course. I think anybody who, I'm gonna be honest, anybody out there who thinks Bruce Lee would defeat Mike Tyson in his prime, I think you have some, I think you need to spend more time in a gym. I think you need to spend more time training.

Yeah, I mean I think, you know, and that's the thing is, you know, I obviously never met Bruce Lee. And so I don't know, I see the movies and stuff. You hear what people talk about him. And he certainly had a great talent.

Jeremy (14:03.97)

But this whole concept that no one could ever beat him anywhere. And I believe we himself made the point that anyone can beat anybody. And that's why you have to train is because you never know what you're going to be up against. And, you know, hey, everybody has trouble like in middle school through to high school, whatever. That was actually something I did carry with me. And I don't know if I got from Boosley or whatever, but, you know, play those margins. And I remember probably my biggest victory in high school.

which taught me a lot about psychology, is there was this group of guys, you know, and one of them's like gonna dump his milk on my head. And I said, don't do it. You know, and I'm a little nerdy guy, as a freshman at the time. And he said, what are you gonna do about it? And I said.

more than you think I can. And I'm just ad libbing this. This is like, this is like something took over my brain and is like, kid, let me drive, you know? And he goes, will you wanna step outside? And in a moment of inspiration, I said, I do. And I got up and we start heading down the hall. And just as we get to the door, he turns and he looks at me, he goes, you're nothing but a bop, bop. Can't repeat that on camera. And takes off running down a side hallway.

And I remember I turned to the crowd of kids behind us and I put my hands out and I had, I've like, I was an attack of cardio, you know what? I was just like, God, I got the idea. But I've learned a lot from that. The psychology of it is like, you don't have to necessarily win the fight or anything at all. All you have to do is convince the other guy that you want to fight more than him. And he may win that fight, but he's going to get hurt in the process. And it's not worth it. And. You know, I used to.

tell people that when I worked in retail because you get people coming and you literally have customers say you want to step outside? The minute you say yes

Jeremy (16:01.93)

It's because it takes them out of their context. Their thing is, you're a stupid little clerk. You can't touch me, da da. The customer is always right. But the minute they say it, and you're like, yeah, sure. Now they're out of their groove. And you got them mentally. They're, you know, so. I've been having a day. Yes, I would love to. Yeah. I could use an outlet. Mm-hmm. So let's go back.

Go back to forward. You started training. Was it what you expected?

Jeremy (16:39.198)

I think in some ways it was because, you know, Marcus and I had very similar mindsets.

At one point when I was in graduate school and I knew I was going to be hanging around a bit I looked into a couple schools in the Minneapolis, St. Paul area and You know how you meet someone and you can I don't want to say you dislike them But you can tell hey cool guy, but I'm not gonna Fit in with his program well, and that was kind of the vibe I got from just about every school there except for one which was pretty cool, but they wanted like a full year commitment

which was good it turned out because I ended up at Isle Royale within like four months. But so I think it was good in that, you know, we had very similar mindsets and the way he approached the training and the way he presented it to me worked out really well. I think we gelled like that and you know that's a pretty rare thing. You know, like I was talking about, you know, being a fish biologist in all the different places I've worked, it was

you know, I, hey, I, you know, I can work with anybody. I always make a point to get along with all my coworkers and such. But there was like that one boss and that one field guy where, you know, you guys just, you barely had to talk, you know? Same page. Yeah. It's, it's, so that's kind of, you know. So it worked out, it worked out really well. So to me, it was...

kind of what I expected or it fit with me, maybe not what I expected. It was not what I expected in that it really, he didn't deal with all the tough guy stuff and things like that. And he was a good instructor. This guy was a wrecking machine when he wanted to be and he probably could have fought Bruce Lee, I don't know. He has since stepped away from martial arts and for his own reasons, which is perfectly fine.

Jeremy (18:42.23)

But yeah, it was a good way to get started for me. And how long were you training with him? All I wanna say, it was pretty brief, it was about two and a half years or so. Okay. Yeah. And then what? And then I was pretty much on my own. I tried a few different places, but things were so different. And...

One thing too with the JKD is we had a lot of spark.

you know that was always a lot of fun. And if you go to another school and everything is like we're a complete no contact school and things like that it's dramatic difference and yeah not what you want and you know what kind of kind of one of the things that shows up the difference is at one point was this one school I went to a few classes that never nice enough guys

One of the instructors there, he was like third or fourth degree black belt. And he said, well, he, he's like, let's spar open hand, you know, basically tapping. So we're going along and we're doing our thing and he had zero defense. And I kept tapping him, you know, forehead cheek, you know, breaking through. And every time I got through his defense, you know, trap, whatever, um, he'd mutter, nah, that wouldn't work. That wouldn't work.

and so in the moment literally proving that it's working i stopped and i and i was very frustrated i tried to kind of keep my cool but i said well i said you're not helping i said when you mutter that wouldn't work what do you mean i'm not learning anything here and he said well he said do some shadow boxing i'll come back to you

Jeremy (20:29.438)

Hey, you know, you didn't know what to do. Done. You know, I mean, I'm not going to make a dramatic exit or anything, but you know, walk away and find something else. So it was, it was tough. And then later on, I found my original instructor's instructor was still going down in Mass. And I trained there for four or five years. But it's just kind of impractical. It's almost a four hour round trip. So I couldn't get down there very often.

wouldn't mind getting back to it, but right now it's just not very practical. Sure. So you're running solo? Yeah, pretty much. Take on a few students here and there.

JKD is not the most popular thing out there. I mean, let's face it, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and Muay Thai are kind of ruling the roost, which is fine. There's nothing wrong with this. I would challenge that a little bit. I think it's ruling the conversation. Oh, okay. But I think in my experience, if we look at, you know.

If we add up styles of karate and Khenpo and taekwondo, and the things that have been around for a long time, Kung Fu, I think they still remain in most places, at least in the US, because that's what I have the experience with, still remain overall more popular. As an individual, if we break down to individual styles, especially if we start splitting up taekwondo styles and karate styles, yeah, BJJ is likely the most popular. Yeah, yeah, you hear the most noise, I guess.

So yeah, I got my little place which actually, you know, I never wanted to be an instructor. Really? I just liked training. Okay. I loved the learning process. I didn't want the responsibility. But because we're in a JKD desert, you're either going to Chick-A-Pee, Mass or Fishkill, New York. It's a long trip. I kind of had to- For those of you watching, that's a long trip for me. Yeah. It's like two and a half one way or four and a half the other.

Jeremy (22:31.542)

So I kind of had to form my own thing. And so we were, and you know, after I'd been granted training privileges, I didn't train. What does that mean? Basically the way they did it at the time is,

you'd been there long enough in your ranks and whatnot and they said well now I want you to start taking on your own students so I'm granting you training. So training not your ability to train, your ability to train others. Yes, so bringing in other people. Which is actually how I met my first instructor because it's the same thing and they said okay we want you taking on your own people. So he was like hey how about the guy in the warehouse with me. So we're looking at that and I was trying to get something going there.

And again, I wanted to keep it pretty informal, but then to get the insurance, I had to form a company, which fortunately I knew I would do an LLC pretty quick, having done it a few times now. But then in one of those things is like, I get, okay, yeah, we got it. And then they're like, sorry, we're not gonna do that insurance anymore. And I'm like, oh. And then I found Thimble, which was like, yeah, we'll do it for 16 bucks online, boom.

But again, we were just having a little trouble getting things going. So, like I said, I take people on, as they show someone shows an interest, and that's how I created that Red Tiger Martial Arts and Meditation, is it is a way for people to find me. A lot of the training I do now,

I do at Elm City Muay Thai, which is my neighbor down the road, just opened his own place. And that's pretty cool when he has his open gyms. I mean, obviously he's very focused on the Muay Thai stuff. He's very good at what he does. But a lot of that you can actually adapt to JKD because Muay Thai guys like to be very simple with their stuff and break it down. So that's pretty good. And when you have the open gym on Saturday, you can do whatever you want. There's people there. So find somebody.

Jeremy (24:30.936)

Hey, let's grab the pads and you do your thing. I'll do my thing and we'll compare And even like when I was teaching at the Saturday thing Advanced training Saturday Is it was a lot of conversation as I had people hitting the pads on the drills and stuff And so Like it's my old little quote here is I always say be eclectic in your learning

and syncretic in your practice. And that's what I mean is like, you know, go to a Muay Thai class, go to a Bagua class and do as the instructor wants, you know, don't be disruptive, you know, follow that leader, you know, what he wants you to learn. But then think about that and like, okay, now how can I put this into mine?

You know, and like you watch some UFC stuff, I don't really watch it, but occasionally I'll watch some clips. I remember there was one where the announcer, I can't remember who the announcer was, but he kept saying like, oh, he switches to Muay Thai, now he's going to Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. And that makes for great theater. But in reality, when you're, when you're actually as a martial artist, you can't be that separate.

you can't be like, all right, I'm gonna use some Muay Thai, now I'm gonna use some Jiu-Jitsu. There has to be a flow there. So that's what I mean by being syncretic. You're eclectic in that I take a class A, I take a class B, class C, then you have to bring it into your own thing, which leads to my other one, my other favorite little saying, which sometimes rustles feathers, but I say there's only one martial art, but it'll be different for everyone.

because eventually you create your own martial art. Which is another thing that I liked about Jeet Kune Do is one of the things Lee said, and I think this gets overlooked by a lot of his, you know, super fans and whatnot, is that he always said, my JKD will not be the same as yours.

Jeremy (26:39.662)

and I got it in my little note here and stuff where he talks about in this article how there's no set format and whatnot. So can we talk about that if this isn't okay to switch gears a little bit because you before we started recording you used the word originalist to talk about folks that train and teach JKD as they at least they understand Bruce Lee having done so and I've never

Jeremy (27:08.776)

books and the one thing that I came away with was even louder than

a lot of the writings of folks that pioneered karate and taekwondo styles who said, this needs to grow and change, it needs to adapt, don't codify it, et cetera. It seemed like Bruce Lee's message was similar and even louder. Yeah. It seems in conflict to me and I don't have enough context to reconcile it. Yeah, and that is the big split, the originalist versus the concepts.

And just this morning I heard or not heard but read something someone did put online just trashing Dan in a sauna because he's the concept guy who went away from Bruce Lee.

I think I didn't think anyone could trash Dan and Asanto. Yeah, probably tops on the list of people. Well, second to Chuck Norris, maybe. But I would love to talk to anybody out there to make that happen. Yes, exactly. Yeah, I would, too. And again, you know, that's where I think it gets crazy is you get these two camps and you've got people who've never met somebody.

you know, dumping on someone, you know, that you've never met. Doesn't make sense. Just because of what someone else told you. Right. And I think again, yeah, that's is getting away from the spirit of what he wanted. And if you read his article from, uh, black belt magazine, it was called liberate yourself from classical karate.

Jeremy (28:48.926)

which is actually a bad name, it should have just been called My Idea for Jeet Kune Do, he very specifically mentions that. He says that there's no set form. It's not this, it's not that. It's more like his ideas and his principles. Now he definitely had the way he taught people stuff, and that was probably most exemplified by Ted Wong. Like my first class ever.

Marcus took me through my paces and I go, you've learned three kicks and you've learned three punches. He goes, that's all there is, spend the rest of your life perfecting it. And that's almost not an exaggeration. And that's a good way to start that idea of the simplicity and whatnot. But also you have to look at the individual and what works for them. And so.

For me, one thing that worked really well is what we used to call the weak side or rear hook kick. Instead of throwing it with the lead leg, come with the back leg around. And that worked well for me. Now that would not be something that necessarily if you were a hardcore, you know, this is only what Bruce taught. You probably wouldn't do it. It's not in his book.

But I think that gets away from the spirit. Bruce wanted people to experiment. That's how he did things. You know, he took like Wing Chung, fencing and boxing and combined them. Okay. But he also died when he was 32 years old. So, to...

make him the seal of wisdom, I think is incorrect. And I don't think he would have wanted that. And take him aside for a moment. I don't know anyone who peaked at 32. I don't know anyone that we would put in charge of anything super important that we would say by the time they were 32, they knew everything they needed to know. Yeah, and so...

Jeremy (30:53.798)

I think in a way he's almost, it's like he's in danger of becoming a historical irony, the iconoclast who's becoming the icon.

you know, he wanted to disrupt things. He wanted to be the disruptive innovator. And he had a lot of really good ideas. And it appealed to me, you know, when I see some of these classes where, you know, like the forms and things like that, psychologically, I have a lot of trouble with that. Like when I took the Ba Gua class, you know, we had to learn the eight circles. Well, I have trouble with sequences and stuff. I always have since I was a little kid, remembering my own phone number, all that stuff.

I could remember like the first two circles and then after that I was freelancing. So to break things down and say, okay, we're going to do three punches, three kicks. We're going to get as good at that as we can was very appealing. Resonated for you. Yeah. Rather than remembering a form, learning a few techniques very well and applying those situationally, psychologically really worked for me.

but then also have the ability to move within that a little, to some degree. And I think sometimes as I look deeper into things, I think we, his statements, the classical mess, the man who was confined, he was correct in many ways, but he also was maybe overstated a little bit. There was a little bit more freedom in there. Like when I was dealing...

looking into Bagua before I took the class. I signed up because they had the class over in Francis Town. I knew nothing about it, so I was like, I'll do that. You know, hey, I got a weekend. So I did a lot of research on it. And I realized, OK, you got Bagua. But if you say Bagua is only these eight circles and these 16 moves or whatever, you're missing out. Because there were guys in there that, oh, this guy had his branch and he was known for using whatever.

Jeremy (32:57.358)

can't come to mind right now. But there was more variation in there. So I think maybe, and maybe things were different in the late 60s or whatever, or just his experience. Like me, I have the advantage, internet, Amazon, I can get any book I want or any video. So who knows what Lee had available to him. But I do think, yes, he...

how do you want to say is I think sometimes the reverence for him can be overdone and he becomes an impediment to his own art.

can kind of follow that. Yeah, I think that's a good way. Because he didn't intend it that way. He wanted this to be something that. And that's what I like, is it involves with me. And early on, there were certain techniques I shied away from just because physically, hey, I was a sprinter, so I'm good this way. But, well, this way, not so good. So side kicks, I was probably the only guy

kicks because I just was terrible at them. But then as I got better that became part of my repertoire. So that's one thing I see is that...

Gekudo is adaptable to each student. And that was one thing that kind of shied me away early on when I was looking at some schools is that everybody in Rosen, everybody's doing the exact same thing. And you look out, it's like, shoot, I can't quite function on that. And...

Jeremy (34:38.274)

So that's, I think, one of the things that makes JKD not maybe the most commercially viable thing is it's great because you work in small groups, it's very specialized to each person, that doesn't lend itself to a large school format. What do you do differently? What do you teach differently than what you were taught? How have you?

I hesitate to use the word improved, but I think ultimately that's how you would view it, right? What did you take, make your own, and pass on that the input looks different from the output? I think uh... Say it, I...

Most of my training, like the pad work and stuff like that, was very much like, okay, give me 10 sidekicks, give me 10 front hand leads, that type of thing. I do more combinations with the pads. And I picked that up kind of from working with Elm Se Mui Tai. And I started doing that. I was like, wait a second, we can do this with JKD stuff, you know. So now instead of like, okay, do 10 of these, there's the, okay, now let's do rear cross.

to a body hook and then back to the back fist, things like that. And of course with the footwork always, you know, do some stationary stuff, but always trying to incorporate the footwork into everything and make those more combinations, make it a little more practical. And I think that helps with the students maintain their interest too. You know, I took one class once and it was interesting just from the endurance perspective where the guy had us do 1,000 front hand.

leads, stationary, you know. Literally 1,000? Literally 1,000. And next morning, your knuckles are black with little white tips and stuff. And it was interesting in that, yeah, you know, hey, we can do that. That's possible. But at the same time, it's like, OK, you don't want to do that every day. And in a practical sense, what does that really give you?

Jeremy (36:49.49)

Not a whole lot. It's a neat thing. Hey, I did it. You know, does that take to heal? Um, because you're kind of taking some time off from doing that. Yeah, I can't remember for sure. I remember that whole weekend was brutal. It was a good seminar. But yeah, I was bruised all over the place and because the other drills and stuff is pretty rough and tumble, but you can't do that every day, of course.

And that gets to one thing too, is high volume versus more the combos and things like that.

And that's one thing where people look at like Bruce Lee's training manuals and stuff, or not manuals, his day planners. And they're like, Oh, well, he did 500 kicks or whatever. And this, um, but also it's the thing that people don't talk about is toward the end of his life, he was already having some problems with over training problems with his knees and what. And so it's one of those things where like, Oh, if he did it, it's gotta be good. Well, you know, the technology at the time, what, you know, think about it, even like when

was in you know early in my track career it's like well you just run more you just run more I mean over training what's that you know

you know, we've evolved, we've had more and, um, and you, you also, and I just want to, I just want to jump in because I think it's an important concept. If you, if you're going to mimic what someone does, you can't pick and choose, right? Even if you forget the fact that Bruce died at 32, even if you forget that he had some physical challenges, are you recovering like him? Are you eating like him? Are you, you know,

Jeremy (38:29.11)

are you doing all these other things that maybe permitted him to do? Yeah. That, but we see people that pick and choose, right? You know, it's the great, it's the great, I've never trained debate online, you know, I'm going to train this and this and this, and then I'm going to be the perfect fighter. It's like, okay, how much training do you have? Zero. Okay. Well, you know, maybe, maybe you start, maybe you recognize that you can't just look at this person and say they're great because of this style.

They're great because this style and all the things they did before and all the things that they are doing to maintain, to prepare for the fight, etc. Yeah. And there's, you know, that's the thing is, I think, like I said, it's, it's the almost the irony of it. You know, you think Bruce Lee came back now and he would look at me, you know, I'm 54.

and he'd say, okay, you've outlived me by 20 years and technology has advanced 50 years. What have you got to show for it? Right.

Do I want to sit here and say, well, you know what you did in December of 1968? I'm doing the exact same thing. So you're saying to summarize, you're saying that you believe Bruce would look at you and say, how are you better than me? Yeah, pretty much. Yeah. How are you? That's a reasonable expectation. And, and, you know, you can say like not literally better in terms of one on one, but better in how I'm applying myself. Or how have you improved this thing? Yeah. Right. One of the things, and we talked about this on the show and, and I,

I'll repeat it for folks who might be new. You may not have caught those episodes. I believe wholeheartedly that there are two ways to teach. I can take what I know and I can try to model, mold my students into exactly who and what I am as a martial artist. But they're never going to be as good as me at being me. So let's say they get close. Let's say they're 99% of me. And then they repeat the same process.

Jeremy (40:32.984)

Martial arts gets worse over time. Yeah, or I Can take everything that I know and I can make them the best Them as a martial artist and you talked about it as a bit as possible

and try to get them there even faster. Yeah. That's one of the things I'm really working on in my school right now. How do I help them progress as quickly as possible? Because why would I want to teach them as less than as quickly as possible, right? Efficiency is relevant. So then theoretically, martial arts improves over time. Because it's never gonna stay exactly the same. Yes, yeah. And that's true, and that's why I think it is so insane that you see these instructors who take it as a personal insult

outside research on their own. I mean, you know, that's where you want, you know, that, I don't know, insecurity or whatever it is, where, you know, a person can't train with anyone else. And, you know, my wife is in the horse business, which is kooky as anything, you know, that's her sideline, she's an eye doctor. Well, actually, no, maybe the horses are more than an eye doctor, but...

And you'll see that too, where there's a, I don't know, like a dressage coach. I was wondering if you were going dressage. And yeah, okay. The moment you said kooky, I went, are we going dressage? Yes. And for those of you who don't know. Yeah. Don't let your daughter see a horse. I know. But they'll be like that. Oh, you're training with someone else. You can never come back.

And it's like, no, there has to be that ongoing continuing education within the self. And you can't expect your students not to have that. And then you always learn something from someone. And just have that open mind. I hear occasionally you hear people talk, well, I had this student come to me and he was terrible, he was terrible, he was terrible.

Jeremy (42:36.858)

And so just to kind of stir the pot a bit, because I really didn't like the conversation online, I said, oh, what did you learn from that student? And the response was, well, that there's a lot of crappy instructors. And I said, no, what did you learn from the student? And.

I got a subtle reply. Are students supposed to be good? Do you have to be good to start something? That seems like a terrible way to look at things. People have that attitude sometimes. They do. It sounds like- You're not good enough to take lessons. You gave the example of the person that you sparred with and the mumbling. That person should see that as an opportunity either to learn from you or to teach you better one way or the other. But the idea that it was very clear that person was insecure and that's really unfortunate.

You know, I was really lucky growing up. My instructors, if somebody came in, you know, I remember green belts coming in and they go, oh, you do something different than us. What can you teach us? Right, and I didn't realize at the time, because I was a kid, how unique, especially for the 80s, that was. And that's always been my attitude. You know, I have students now and half of them, more than half of them, have some prior training. Guess what? I'm not nitpicking at this,

School's six months old, you know? But I'm not nitpicking. No, your punch has to be like this, not like this. In the kata, it does. But if you want to spar with your hand like this, I'm fine with that. Because if you're more comfortable punching that way, you're gonna be a better puncher that way. Cool. If I want them to punch differently, it's up to me to show them this is a better way and show them why rather than just, you have to do it my way, because I said so there are some times I pull rank.

somebody's doing something that's potentially injurious or something or maybe whatever it is there's something that layers on top of it and

Jeremy (44:33.834)

because they don't have the experience to see the whole thing, they're not gonna understand. I say, I just need you to trust me. That comes into play too. Oh yeah, yeah. Yeah, and I think that's the thing, I can give you a good little anecdote here from my time in track is if you remember Ben Johnson, the guy got busted for steroids, but he had a kind of unique starting style. And he would get very low in the blocks, he'd put his hands all the way out in his lane

and he'd just rocket out and he'd come up quick. It used to be he'd stay low and all this. Well, I was a terrible starter. So I mimicked Ben Johnson's way of starting and I had a rocket start and I didn't have great downfield speed. So I had to get out quick and I could generate enough power to give you an idea.

on indoor tracks where we weren't allowed to wear spikes we had to wear just rubber molded shoes remember those old nike's with the chiclets on them? i could come out of the box with enough force i could tear those little rubber chiclets off the bottom of my shoes that's cool i mean i could generate force like you wouldn't believe well i get into college and my first college coach he's like i don't like your start you look like you're over striding and i was like oh you know and i you know even though i had a pretty good time you know for our division and all that

So the next meet, I humor him, bring my arms together, he goes, oh, he goes, you look good on that start. And I finished like eighth place, you know, like dead last or maybe second to last. And he goes, but it looked really good. He's like, I like your technique now. And to me, that was just like, roll my eyes. And on a personal level, I liked the coach. He was a nice guy, he wasn't a jerk.

but he was so set in that the guys gotta come out of the blocks looking like this there's one way regardless of the time i think that's a thing that as an instructor you really gotta get away from okay here's a good way to do it i want you to try that vertical fist and work with me on that and then as you get good on that now okay you move your own thing into it

Jeremy (46:46.562)

I like that individuality. And I think that's sometimes where you come into, you know, and I understand, you know, like book belts and rankings, it's good. It gives an incentive. It gives like a goal and all that. What do you do when you have two people that complete say whatever belt, you know, we'll say the black belt. They both go through the same sequence.

And I actually did see video of this. And they both accomplish it, but you can tell one has definitely got more to them than the other one. And okay, how do you handle that? Because clearly they're not on the same level, although they've completed the same work. That depends on what that belt means at that school. And one of the things we talk about.

Maybe not often, but we did for a time on this show was rank means different things at different schools. And not only is that not bad, it's good. I think that's good. Yeah. Because different schools, different whys, different instructors, different experiences. I mean, there are people out there who want to go the exact opposite of.

you know, the philosophies that we're talking about that, you know, we're on the same page about, and they want standardization not just within individual arts, but across the arts. Yeah, I've seen that argument. People talk about that. It's like, good luck. And my first response to that is always, okay, let's pretend for a moment that is a good idea. Who gets to decide? Yeah. And they always want to be the one that decides, or their instructor is the one that decides. Well, why them? Why are they the authority? And it doesn't take long when you argue down

lines to realize there is no authority. There is no person that is best at everything. Nobody gets to determine. And that's why people like to challenge me. There is no definition of what is and is not a martial art. I have mine, but is it the definition?

Jeremy (48:56.422)

You have yours. It probably overlaps mostly. Probably some differences. I think that's a good thing because without the differences, we don't identify those elements to change. And without the change, we can't have the progress. Yeah. And I think, again, that's why it's good to go out there and be around because.

You know, like if, like me going up against the Muay Thai guys, I get a totally different look and they get a different look too. And so we both kind of see something different. We can learn something. And yeah, and as to rank it, it makes me think of a time where, um, you know, I, before I even had my first ranked JKD, you know, open sparring.

guy, another guy, black belt, multiple stripe. I can't remember for sure, but he was terrible. And very slow moving. And it was just, I don't know, it was kind of one of those things where you got done and you're like, man, what just happened?

opposite of that red belt from a now defunct school but um the instructor was very good and he pushed guys hard um you know i guess one could argue his methods but he tended to produce good guys and he had a red belt that was it was like sticking your hand into a wood chipper i mean the guy was good and yet he's wearing a red belt okay so

who's the better martial artist? Yeah.

Jeremy (50:23.994)

And that's fighting ability. How do we define that? Right. So that's where the definition is. What about the other things? Mm hmm. You know, there are plenty of great fighters out there that are not good people. Exactly. Is that also part of being a good martial artist? Yeah, to me, it is. Doesn't have to be to somebody else. Yeah. Well, that's, you know, another one of my things that I actually my last article for your magazine there is I was talking to the War Journal.com. Yes. The whole warrior to sage idea

you can be a warrior, okay? But if all you focus on is the warrior aspect, you sell yourself short. You got to move on and be the sage. And to my mind, that's Master Po from Kung Fu, my favorite, all-time favorite character. And that's why he's great is because he's a fictional character, so we don't ever have to worry about him getting arrested, you know, doing something. But you know, just how he...

he had that calm, that insight, and yet when he had to fight, he had to, you know, and so that is kind of my, I guess, ideal if I need to have one. Yeah, and you know, literature is full of that contrast between the warrior and the other, right? The scholar, there better to be a warrior in a garden than a gardener in a war, right? Like, you know, we can find those all over the place. And I think...

Jeremy (51:55.376)

I think.

that if the entire value that one derives from martial arts training is only utility in combat, then it's a waste of time. Because very few of us are going to get into more than one or two fights in our future. And if you do get into lots of fights, then it probably says something about you or where you live. Yeah, right. I'm not going to say that everywhere is safe and free of violence.

But I look at it and I say, look at all this other good stuff. I'm gonna put some time into that because I am going to need discipline and confidence and et cetera, et cetera every day. Yeah, so all those things too. Oh yeah, I see a bit of an analogy there. I was a bear safety instructor with Fish and Wildlife up in Alaska. And we did the whole, the guns thing, that was our martial art.

practice with the bolt action rifle which actually by the time I left they discontinued because so many people everybody's into the semi-autos now but people are coming in like what's this? Well that's a bolt action rifle you know you had to do your rapid fire and you had to learn it and the importance of whatever you learn on is what you take with you and all this but then we also went into ecology and behavior of bears and things like that and

You know, like I told him, this is actually the most important part. The important part isn't killing a bear. Cause if a bear comes into your camp and you kill it, whatever brought in that first one's going to bring in the next one.

Jeremy (53:38.462)

So what you focus on is making that bear not wanna come into your camp in the first place. Because it's a bear safety course, not a bear hunting course. Yes. If it was a bear hunting course, then maybe the guns would be 90% of it. And it was, like I tell people, the first part is the deterrence and basically almost camouflaging yourself to the bear. And you get good enough at that first part, we're never gonna need the second part.

and everybody thinks, oh it's so cool man, you shoot a bear. So the first time you ever hear a big Kodiak growl and you know you're the subject of their displeasure, it is crazy. And you realize when that bear slaps the ground and then turns around and leaves, it's the biggest relief you'll ever feel. Because the whole thing is like, yeah. Because when they move, if you're lucky you got one shot.

I mean, you have to put three in the moving target, but let's be realistic here. So you want to be in that zone where it's like you anticipate, you understand their behavior. And that's to me kind of going from the warrior to the sage. The warrior knows how to kill the bear. The sage knows how to never have to kill the bear.

So you have that skill, but, you know, and so I see it as the same thing here. You know, the martial arts, it's great. It's, you know, let's do it. Let's mix it up. Let's have some fun. It's good. But maybe the more important part is that psychology of, you know, like, hey, you know. It's like I used to tell people, my greatest martial art was being a sprinter.

Because when I had a car pull up in the center of River Falls, Wisconsin, and some guy yelled something at me, and I said, what are you talking about? And all of a sudden, I got this float of guys with baseball bats coming at me. Because not one of them, you know.

Jeremy (55:36.066)

some guy with a big old beer got carrying a baseball bat, he ain't gonna beat me to the corner. So, yeah, it's like, you know, okay, I could have stood and fight, but what would have been the point? Exactly. Well, probably wouldn't have been a great story for you. Yes. Yeah, it's, you know, get out, you know? Be smart, know how to anticipate and understand and just walk away, you know? And sometimes, okay, yeah,

guy goofed on you, he spit on you, whatever. It's like better than you know, because anytime you get into a quote unquote real fight, you're gonna get hurt. It getting hit sucks.

and who knows someone else may jump in and it'll get even worse. So avoidance I think. I'm right there with you. I tell people, people will ask me to teach self-defense or what are my self-defense credentials? How have I fared in fights? I'll be honest with you. I'm not the best person in the world to teach you self-defense. I am one of the best people to teach you how to not get into a fight. Because I grew up a small nerd

deescalate since fourth grade. Yeah. 100%. Yeah. I'm good at that. Yeah. That's a valuable skill. I teach people that. Oh yeah. No, it is. That's funny. I used to get that too. People would be like, Hey man, how many bears have you killed? That's like.

You know, that's not the point. Again, this is not a bear hunting course. This is a bear safety course. Don't apply the bear spray to your skin. Yes, exactly. Yeah, like they used to joke, yeah, the bear spray is like you pop the cap and zap the guy next to you and take off running. You know, but.

Jeremy (57:21.958)

Yeah, you only have to be faster than the solo exam group. Exactly. So what's coming next for you? We look down the pipe here and... Yeah, what I'd really like to do is I'd like to get a consistent JKD group going in our area. Cool.

just so we have people to train with. And I don't necessarily see myself as the instructor there or Shifu, however you want to term it. I'd see it more as like a group of guys, similar interests or ladies to anybody. And we can kind of teach and learn from each other. And I have no problem being the leader of that group, you know, and keep some things going. Does it make sense to be leader and instructor? And that's, I think it's an important distinction. I see myself as the leader in my martial arts school.

And that's what I'd like to do is get something consistent going. I have a small place in what used to be our brewery and I train people there a bit. We'd probably need to get something a little more. If it was still a brewery, you'd probably have great attendance. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it was fun while it lasted. But, you know, time moves on. You evolve. You have to. And, yeah, so I'd just like to get a consistent group going. And...

you know, so I have people to train with and they can pursue their interests also.

try to keep it casual. I have no interest in running a large school or even making it my career. In fact, I'd rather not make it my career. As much as I loved having the brewery, it took a hobby to a career. And that- It always changes things. Yeah. And people are now are like, hey, what about this and this? It's like, I don't even look at the craft beer section anymore. It's like, yeah. Been there, done that. Yeah, you know, moved on. Had a lot of fun with it. Met some great people and it's just. I think the sweet spot for most of us,

Jeremy (59:13.512)

to say everyone because there are plenty people out there whose dream is to make their career teaching martial arts and I you know I love that and I support that and I part of my career is supporting that and working with those schools for me personally I think the sweet spot is having a school and making some money yeah

Yeah, as long as you're covering your costs. Yeah, enough money that, you know, you can put a few bucks in your pocket, you know, go out to eat once in a while, do some fun stuff for your students and you cover your rent and your insurance and whatever. I think I think that's the best. Yeah, because if a student leaves, you know, man.

how am I gonna eat next week? Yeah. Right? Or, oh man, you know, if I could have stretched that trial, then this, right? And I wanna be super clear to the audience. I'm not saying that people shouldn't do that. And I'm not saying, I mean, take a look at what we do. We have plenty of resources. Like, I'm just saying that I think for a lot of people out there, I think we are the majority. We get to a point where part of our development as martial artists is teaching, to pass on,

top knows you learn in a whole different way. Yes. You're like, oh, I didn't know you could do it wrong in that way. Yeah. Right. Like, oh, yeah. Yeah. And even in a month ago, the Saturday thing, one of the people caught on when I went for the double trap.

I was actually doing it two different ways. And he said, you know, if you come over the top, you have a better elbow position to maintain the trap. I was like, oh, yeah, that's right. Cause I'd always been taught to do it as a sweep under. And now you're here. But if you go over the top, now you've got the person really jammed. Okay, now you're not in as good a position to punch, but.

Jeremy (01:01:12.182)

they're also in much less able to get away from you and uh... mere scraps of information you know different perspective people want to get a hold of you website social media anything? yeah, I put up a little thing on facebook red tiger martial arts and meditation

and get into the meditation. Yeah, yeah, that's why I was that actually started long before the martial arts. We're gonna have to chat about that another time. But yeah, or redt So, yeah, absolutely. Anybody in our area, the Keene, New Hampshire, Monadnock region, definitely look me up. Always looking for new people to train with. I'm gonna pass it back to you in a moment to close this out. But to the audience, thanks for

listening, appreciate you, and remember, what's our mission here at Whistlekick? We're trying to get everybody in the world to train. We're here to connect, educate, and entertain. You have a part in that. You have a role to play, whether that's recommending a guest or following us, buying a thing, telling people about a thing. You know, whatever it is that works for you to help grow what we are doing in our mission is appreciated. So...

Tim, what do you want to leave the audience with? We've been all over the place, which is by design. It's what I love about this show. How do you want to close out? What do you want to tell them? Yeah, my favorite personal quote, be eclectic in your learning and Socratic in your practice. Now, hopefully that's good enough. It is good enough, of course. All right, excellent, thank you. Appreciate it.