Episode 897 - Can you learn martial arts from books?

In today’s episode Jeremy and Andrew discuss learning martial arts from books.

Can you learn martial arts from books? - Episode 897

SUMARY

In this episode, Jeremy and Andrew discuss the controversial topic of learning martial arts from books. They explore the value of books in martial arts education and the shift towards learning from recordings. They share an example of someone learning a form from a book and emphasize the importance of learning from various resources. The hosts also address different perspectives on learning from books and encourage listeners to support Whistlekick.

TAKEAWAYS

Books can be a valuable resource for learning about martial arts, providing education, philosophy, and context for training.

Learning from books may not be the same as learning in-person, but it can offer depth of context and nuance.

There is no specific technique or practice within martial arts that should not be learned from a book.

A good martial artist utilizes various resources, including books, classes, videos, and personal practice.

CHAPTERS

00:00 Introduction

02:23 Controversy around learning martial arts from books

04:17 The value of books in martial arts

09:04 The shift to learning from recordings

11:25 Learning a form from a book

13:00 The importance of learning from various resources

16:38 Different perspectives on learning from books

18:02 Supporting Whistlekick

19:55 Closing remarks

After listening to the episode, it would be exciting for us to know your thoughts about it. Don’t forget to drop them in the comment section down below

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Show Transcript

Jeremy (00:02.154)

What's going on everybody? Welcome to another installment of Whistlekick Commercial Arts Radio. And on today's episode, Andrew and I are pioneering sort of a new format that we're calling Two Schools of Thought. And on today's episode, we're approaching that concept with the subject, should martial arts rank testing be scheduled or a surprise? Stick around, this'll be fun.

If you're new to the show or new to what we do, please head over to whistlekick.com. Check out all the things that we do to connect, educate, and entertain the traditional martial artists of the world, people like you. And why do we do all of these things that you're gonna find at whistlekick.com? Like our store where you can use the code podcast, one five to say 15%, or links to the various programs and offerings and services that we have. Well, we do it because we believe that martial arts brings out the best in us. And we also believe that six months of training leaves.

lifelong benefits and thus our goal is to get everyone in the world to train for just six months. If you want to go deeper on the show on any episode of the show because they're all available because this is episode 800 and something Andrew. Yeah.

Andrew Adams (01:10.298)

Yes, 890, 88, something like that. I don't know.

Jeremy (01:16.654)

All right, 890 or so, we're creeping up on 900. We don't necessarily number them as we go. They get released in whatever order makes sense after we record them, hence that change. But if you want, you can go over to the website and you can find links to every single episode we've ever done. And we've been doing them in video for a long time. There are videos on YouTube. It's all over the place. You can subscribe on Apple podcasts or Spotify or wherever works for you. We do two a week. Thanks for being here.

All right, so this whole format, I wanna make sure Andrew gets the nod for this, this was your idea that the whole idea here is that it's kind of, it's debate-esque, right? The idea that we're taking a subject and we're looking at it from a couple different directions.

Andrew Adams (01:52.028)

Yes.

Andrew Adams (02:00.068)

Yeah, uh, it-

Andrew Adams (02:07.242)

Yeah, it's, it's debate-esque in terms of we are going to take a topic. And at least for me, I'm not going to come at any of them from a standpoint of this is the way it should be. They, the, the topics that we will be bringing forward in these two schools of thought episodes are here's the topic. There are two ways of doing this thing. One way isn't better.

as a rash generalization. One way might be better for your school, but there are pros and cons to both ways of doing things. And so today's episode was, you know, stemmed from how my school, you know, the whole concept of these two schools of thought, there were two topics that came up and both of them are ways that my school that I'm currently training in, it's not.

Jeremy (02:41.36)

Hmm

Andrew Adams (03:06.074)

I don't run the school, but the school that I'm currently in, used to do it one way, and now we do it this other way. There are reasons for doing either, and one is not right and one is not wrong. And I thought, you know what, this might be a fun thing to discuss and talk about the pros and cons of doing it each way. And so, pre-COVID, our school would put up on the whiteboard, testing is going to be, you know, December 4th.

from 6 to 9 p.m. and it would be put up there at the beginning of November. So everyone had a month to like recognize, okay, I have to be a class on this day. I've got to show up. I've got to be prepared. This is what I need to do. Parents would be there and when COVID happened the school had to, you know, we started doing Zoom trainings and when we started being able to get together in person we could only have five to six people in the school at one time.

And so testing became very, uh, hey, you did a good job. Show me your thing. Great. Here's your next rank. And it has kind of stayed that way. Now we're back to, you know, lots of students in class and parents are there, but testing is not known ahead of time. And so that's where this whole episode kind of stems from.

Jeremy (04:28.058)

Hmm, yeah. Great, great. So let's make sure that people are of understanding what we're talking about here with these two sides here. Most martial arts, I think I'm comfortable saying most martial arts schools have structured formalized testing.

At least somewhere along the chain. I grew up, it was pretty much impromptu until your black belt, right? And then it was, you know, this date, this time, be in this place, right? Most schools seem to have it somewhere in there that it is formalized. And...

Thus, I don't think we need to unpack what that looks like because most of us went to school and we are used to having a test. Hey, history test this Friday, it's on these chapters, right? Like it's a test versus a pop quiz, which is kind of the other way that we're talking about here, what I would call impromptu or unexpected or surprise. Hey, we wanna know what you know and we wanna see if...

Andrew Adams (05:12.972)

Yep.

Andrew Adams (05:22.443)

Yep, exactly.

Jeremy (05:37.958)

what you know is what you we hope you know and think you should know for your whatever the condition is sometimes it's to earn new rank some schools have a provisional rank where you have to be tested again and so it could be okay you learned this stuff for this rank but now we want to make sure you're keeping up with it so pop quiz you know show me this that and the other i think that's a fair assessment of what we're talking about here

Andrew Adams (05:46.487)

Mm-hmm.

Andrew Adams (06:02.634)

Yep, exactly. Yeah, yeah, I think so. I think so.

Jeremy (06:08.22)

Okay, now as a school that's done.

both and knowing that you don't have a strong opinion, because I think you said that, you don't have a super strong opinion, what have you seen?

Andrew Adams (06:22.405)

I think there are a lot of benefits to both of the ways.

Jeremy (06:25.102)

Yeah, so talk about those benefits. What are the upsides of each school of thought?

Andrew Adams (06:30.318)

So when you have a scheduled test in advance, it allows students the opportunity to, if they are the type of student that like to have goals, and we talked, we a few weeks ago released an episode on goal setting, they get to see, oh, December 4th, there is a test coming up, I'm gonna be working towards that.

And if they have anxiety over that, they have an opportunity, they have a month to recognize that it's coming up and to get prepared and be ready for it. Having, you know, knowing that it's a test scheduled test, typically there are more people in class because everyone is testing and so more people come not just students, but people parents and other loved ones are there to watch that test as well.

So there are more people in class, and so that makes a slightly heightened anxiety, but you have a month to prepare for that. But you get the feeling of having to do it under pressure because there's more people there. Now, on the other side, when it's a surprise, you still have the pressure.

The doubt, but it's a different kind of pressure. And it's a pressure that you don't have opportunity to recognize and get ready for. The benefit some would say is that that's how it's like in the real world. If you are assaulted on the street, you don't have time to prepare and recognize that it's coming up. And so I see there's a lot of benefits to that as well.

Jeremy (08:28.634)

It's you could almost look at it as the same amount of pressure. The question is how much you're going to front load that pressure. Is that pressure occurring before the test or is it entirely during the test? And depending on the school, the rank, the goals. Yeah, the student there is potentially value in each, or ideally, I would say both.

Andrew Adams (08:49.303)

the student.

Jeremy (08:57.594)

having some things that are, especially as you progress in rank, some things that are prepared for and some things that are unknown.

Andrew Adams (09:03.662)

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Now, the downside to doing the surprise one is that the family might not be there. Right? The people that want to be there and support that student or, again, in our school, the instructor would not typically do it until

Jeremy (09:17.338)

Hmm.

Andrew Adams (09:31.394)

the end, I mean, and I'm gonna talk kids here for a second because that's usually who's the ones that are there. He wouldn't administer the quote test portion until the end of the class when the parent has come back in to watch or to pick up their child so that they're still gonna see it. But there are students that have been progressed in rank who earned the rank when I wasn't there as a student.

And I didn't get to be there to support them as well. And so you may have a buddy that you like to go to class with and you're training with, and you show up to one class and he doesn't, and you get promoted and your friend wasn't there and vice versa. So, you know, I think you do lose a little bit of that community aspect by doing a surprise test.

Jeremy (10:23.014)

Growing up, they were all, I don't wanna say necessarily surprises, but it wasn't formalized until...

Andrew Adams (10:32.659)

Mm-hmm, okay.

Jeremy (10:33.803)

It was kind of.

come in the back with me, come in that other room with me. Right, that's what I was used to versus when I was in my 20s and started training in Taekwondo, it was more, okay, on next class, we're gonna test you for this, or next week, or next month, or next quarter, we're gonna test you for that. And I think each reward's a different kind of person.

with a different kind of learning, different kind of approach to martial arts. The more time you have in advance, the higher the standard you can set. But for people who don't do as well under pressure, the pressure of that preparation, maybe they don't learn forms easily, that can be agonizing. And I've seen people that four to six weeks out, they were a wreck because they had this testing coming up.

Andrew Adams (11:12.812)

Mm-hmm.

Jeremy (11:33.106)

And usually they were holding themselves to a higher standard than the instructors would. And that's a good thing, I think, in most cases. But those same folks, had they walked in and been told, hey, you know, you're testing today, they might throw up.

Andrew Adams (11:51.786)

Mm-hmm. Yep.

Jeremy (11:52.878)

You know, so it's kind of a damned if you do, damned if you don't sometimes.

Andrew Adams (11:56.118)

Yeah, and it might not even be you walk into class, oh, you're testing today. It's just you walk into class, you have class, and at the end of class, oh, everybody sit down except for Jeremy, we want you to do this, and this, right? You don't have any time to react.

Jeremy (12:12.566)

Or that class is the test. I've seen that as well. Where, you know, you start to get a sense halfway through, like, this seems awfully tight to the curriculum for this rank. Who's testing right now? Yep.

Andrew Adams (12:16.327)

Yep.

Andrew Adams (12:24.682)

Yep, yep, that's definitely happening. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And we in our school now has shipped, so like used to be scheduled, December 4th is your test. It switched to when COVID happened, hey, you're here in class, we feel you're ready for your rank, here you go. Now it's a little bit of in the middle. We know that testing happens three times a year, April, August, and December. And so...

It's April, it's testing month. You don't know when you're gonna be tested, but this is the month that's going to happen. But you don't know when it's gonna happen. So it's kind of in the middle, you have an idea of when it's going to be timeframe wise. It's gonna happen in April. Like I know right now, we're recording this early January, the next rank test will not officially be until April. Sometime, you know?

And there could be, you know, there's always going to be exceptions to the rule. You know, there may be some of the tests outside of that timeframe. But for the most part, April is going to be the next timeframe that tests happen.

Um, but where else is, but where else is this seen all the time? And I don't train in this, but I've talked to many people that do is BJJ. They're, they don't typically even have a formalized test. It's just the instructor feels you're ready. And so at the end of class, he goes, good job. I there's, I'm sure there's more pomp and circumstance than.

Jeremy (13:37.734)

So, go ahead.

Jeremy (14:00.59)

That has been my observation as well. Sure, sure.

Andrew Adams (14:04.872)

But in general, it's not a test. You're not asked to.

Jeremy (14:06.41)

The brief time I spent in BJJ, that's what I observed.

Andrew Adams (14:09.778)

Yeah, yeah, exactly. So it's definitely a different school of thought than how, you know, other karate schools do it, but their way is not wrong. It works for them.

Jeremy (14:24.77)

Now, we've talked about the upside, the downside of both of these, and I think there are two conclusions that we pull from this. The first is, you gotta do what works for your school, your culture, your goals, what you set out for your students. I don't think either of us feels that there is a dramatic different, a dramatic inherent upside to one versus the other.

Andrew Adams (14:37.974)

That was...

Andrew Adams (14:52.066)

Yep.

Jeremy (14:54.49)

Different people will respond differently, but if we approach overall. I do think, and I suspect you'll agree with me, Andrew, that incorporating aspects of both into your school is important.

Andrew Adams (15:08.67)

Yeah, I think the only thing that I feel strongly about is consistency. I think if you, we've discussed a multitude of ways that either schools of thought are good or have downsides, right? We've talked about both of them. I think you need to determine what is best for your school and your students.

Andrew Adams (15:37.194)

But I don't think it should change every other test, in my opinion. This is just me. I think it should be consistent regardless of what you're going to do. And the way my school did it, it made sense why it changed, and it is now, this is the way that it is. And if my instructor were to change and say, okay, April, you know what, we're gonna go back to...

Jeremy (15:44.122)

I agree.

Andrew Adams (16:05.702)

April 15th is the next test day. Obviously I would have to be on board because he's the instructor, but I would chat with him about, I'm hoping this is how it's gonna change now and stay that way. I wouldn't want December to be back to Willy-Nilly whenever. You know?

Andrew Adams (16:28.951)

That's it.

Jeremy (16:29.89)

Well said. So what I'd love to hear from folks out there is what do you do at your school? And the best place to let us know what you do. You can leave comments on Spotify if you're listening there. You can leave comments on YouTube if you're watching there. You can go to Facebook, the page, Martial Arts Radio, and you can leave a comment there. Or if nothing else, you can email me, Jeremy at Whistlekick.com, Andrew at Whistlekick.com.

Andrew Adams (16:49.486)

Mm-hmm.

Jeremy (16:57.558)

And I'd especially love to hear from people who have some way where they do both. Do you do it impromptu for some ranks? And formalized for others? Or did you change from one to the other? Because the better we can all understand this, I think there's a lot of value in here. We might do a part two on this, depending on who and how many responses we get coming in.

Andrew Adams (17:22.411)

Yeah, that'd be great.

Jeremy (17:24.694)

Anything else to add before we close, Andrew? All right. Check out this and every other episode at Whis Visit Whistlekick.com for the store, for Whistlekick Alliance, for the Patreon, for links to Marshall Journal, for all the things that we do in our efforts to connect, educate and entertain the traditional martial artists of the world. Our social media is at Whistlekick. And we mentioned a whole bunch of things today. If there's something that makes sense for you to support our mission, we would...

Andrew Adams (17:26.667)

No, I think we're good.

Jeremy (17:53.926)

appreciate your help in that direction. The easiest, freest thing you can do, send this episode to somebody else and say, hey, what do you think? If nothing else, it'll probably spark good conversation for the two.

And that brings us to the end. Until next time, train hard, smile, and have a great day.