Episode 871 - Is Knowing Lineage Important?
In today's episode Andrew is joined by friend of the show Tashi Mark Warner and they discuss lineage and whether it's important to know.
Is Knowing Lineage Important - Episode 871
Will knowing who came before you make you a better martial artist? Will knowing important figures from other styles help you as well? Listen in as Tashi Mark and Andrew discuss these things and more
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Show Transcript
You can read the transcript below.
Andrew Adams (00:02.21)
Hello, you are listening to or perhaps watching Whistlekick Martial Arts Radio. I am your co-host, although today our regular host Jeremy is not with us. I am joined by Tashi Mark Warner. Hello Tashi, how are you?
mark (00:17.161)
Very good. How you doing tonight, Mr. Andrew?
Andrew Adams (00:19.63)
I am doing very well. And Toshi, Mark, and I are gonna sit down and discuss whether knowing lineage is important. But before we get there, let's just remind you of a couple of things. Whistlekick Martial Arts Radio is where you're gonna wanna go to get all of the show notes and all the details about this episode and every other episode that we do. You can find transcripts there, you can find other photos of the guests and whatnot.
You also can go to whistlekick.com to make a purchase if you want to purchase maybe some sparring gear or some cool t-shirts or some hoodies And if you go there you can use the code podcast one five and save yourself 15% who doesn't like to save money, right? So you might as well go ahead and do that If you're also looking to support the show another great way is to join our patreon P-a-t-r-e-o-n slash whistle kick and
you can help make sure that this show happens because believe it or not, this show is not free. It costs money to make it happen. So you can be a part of that, which would be great. So Mark, Tashi Mark, you already said you're doing well. When I sent the message out to a few people and said, hey, anybody wanna record an episode? You were like, me, me.
mark (01:37.825)
Me me very much so. Well, as you know, last week we had our free training day. I've been keen, which was awesome. Fantastic. Super. We'll get off right there. You get your shirt on. I should have mine. I'm free training day naked, I guess. But anyways.
Andrew Adams (01:39.758)
Thanks for watching!
mark (01:56.653)
So I gave one of the things I did is I did two segments. I did on the floor and I did a lecture segment, which was based on myths, legends and other things. Well, I had two kinds of people in the room. I had like the old timers like you and me who've been around a while and knows of stuff. Then we have the next generation, the teens and younger adults. Well, that means.
Andrew Adams (02:20.886)
Yep, yep.
mark (02:22.669)
That made it very interesting because all the old timers knew the legends and the myths. I went around to the younger. In fact, I asked, this is a good story. This is a good little thing here. I asked one of the students of, uh, he was a campus student, actually. And I said, do you know any legends? He looks at me and goes, Mr. Wareham. Now, Craig is a nice fellow, but Craig Wareham. Yeah, I guess he could be a legend. At least a legend in his old mind.
So I found that really, a really interesting place to start. And I started going around the room a little bit, asking the younger ones who they thought were legends in their systems. We're talking in Kempo. Uh, we're talking Taekwondo. That was basically the two main styles in the room at the time for the younger generation.
They were kind of speechless. Like then, then it got to the point where you guys know your lineage and they were still kind of speechless. So the only guys in the room, uh, Matt Baran was there and, uh, Nick, uh, Tabor and, uh, John Potter. We were kind of like, Hmm, this is very interesting because we came up. Right at the peak. And I want to say at the peak, because I've been thinking about this a few more days. We came out.
Andrew Adams (03:35.263)
Mmm.
mark (03:44.917)
at the peak when we were hungry, hungry for this lineage. Because early on in my training, it was kind of like, that's uh, William Chow on the wall. How do we relate to him? And nobody would tell us because it was kind of like, well, we have to put somebody up there, he got up there. This is my lineage now. So I started getting hungrier and hungrier for lineage. I, I felt it was so important to follow that. That.
that route to go. You're from a more traditional aspect, you're probably, you're a Japanese tradition, so your lineage is probably more pressed upon you and probably easier to follow, I would say. But for the...
Andrew Adams (04:28.494)
Yeah, I mean, for the most part, yes. Um, you know, it definitely, like I can talk about lineage for the, the Shorinruu dojo that I currently train at. My instructor, his instructor, his instructor going back three generations. And then I can, at the very top, I know who, where it all started, but there's definitely some fuzziness in the middle. And I, I think part of that fuzziness is that they trained with lots of different people, but I get what you're saying.
mark (04:58.357)
Right, right. I watch a lot of Jesse Encamp. So he kind of says that all karate in Okinawa, the birthplace of karate, pretty much comes from the same spot. And they all did train together way back then. If you look at the, I'm going off on this tension. If you look at the, at least three of the main styles of Okinawan karate at the forums, they're pretty similar.
Andrew Adams (05:28.682)
Yep, yep, I would absolutely agree.
mark (05:28.749)
a lot of the same stuff, which is great. And of course, please Andrew, if I misspeak on anything, correct me. Sometimes I speak out of other orifices, but we won't go there.
mark (05:44.249)
So, oh, we're talking about lineage, yes. So as you can see, even the banter between you and me, we have a concept of where we came from. I think it's very important because if we forget where we came from, then where we start to head is gonna fall back off the train tracks of where our generation took it, which is to a better state.
Andrew Adams (06:10.65)
Mm.
mark (06:14.573)
talking and work with the older generation in the room, we were like, mm-hmm, this is where we want to be, and this is where we want the youth to go.
Andrew Adams (06:24.422)
Okay, let me play devil's advocate for just a moment because I suspect you and I are going to be in pretty, we're going to be seeing eye to eye on a lot of this, but playing devil's advocate, something I brought up when Jeremy and I did an episode on, is it important to know the language of the style that you train in? So if you train in Kung Fu, is it important to learn Chinese? If you train in Okinawan or Japanese arts, is it important to know those languages?
mark (06:31.492)
Mm-hmm.
Andrew Adams (06:53.206)
The argument that I ask, the question I asked to playing Devil's Advocate, which I'm going to ask you, is if your students, if you've got two students and one knows their lineage really well and one does not, does the one that does not know their lineage, are they going to be able to punch stronger or kick harder or be faster? Is it going to make them a better practicing martial artist? That's my question for you.
mark (07:23.166)
if they know their lineage.
Andrew Adams (07:27.12)
Mm-hmm. I mean, if they don't know their lineage, are they gonna be slower than the person that does?
mark (07:27.289)
Definitely.
mark (07:35.549)
I believe they could actually be slower learners. Because if you don't know your lineage, you may...
Andrew Adams (07:39.79)
Okay.
mark (07:46.081)
you may feel that something works because it looks cool.
And I say that right up front because more than, it wasn't until recently when I started working with yourself and others like that. And all of a sudden it's like, oh, other people are learning or finding this way too. They're, oh, this is, this is a karate style. This is pretty cool. Now, if I didn't know my lineage and the route that we had taken, I might just be trying to punch and kick.
Andrew Adams (08:21.838)
Mm-hmm.
mark (08:23.285)
In fact, I've heard other instructors who I don't think went through their lineage much are more concerned with the punching and the kicking, where they perform for certain forms over others because they feel that they fight more with the punching and the kicking. Where goes out of truth, if 25 years ago I met you and Matt Brown, my school would be a lot different. I'd be teaching something close to the shoulder cut.
Because what, and actually that does cross over into the Shaolin I teach because of the motion of the body and the motion of the hands, the hand techniques you can take from here. If you do not know your lineage, all of a sudden you're just doing.
Andrew Adams (08:52.319)
Mm.
Andrew Adams (09:08.85)
Mm-hmm. Interesting. So I look at it, I will answer my own question being Devil's Advocate. I do not think that the person that knows their lineage will be any better at punching or kicking or moving fast. I don't think they'll be faster. I think if they're fastest because they just naturally are faster. I don't think knowing your lineage is going to help you.
do any technique, right? However, I do agree what you said that it might make you a better learner, and here's why. And it comes down to that last word I just said, why? Knowing where you come from can help you understand why things changed. Because let's face it, I don't care who you are in this world, you are...
likely not teaching the exact same stuff that the founder of your style taught. Unless you're in a martial art that is very young. But if you're training in any you know Goju-Ryu, Shotokan, Shorin-Ryu, any kind of style of Kung Fu, you know all of the Taekwondo like all of that stuff is old enough that you're probably not doing it the same way regardless right? But
You can research and look into how it was done before and look at how it's done now. How do you yourself do it? Who, you know, or how does your instructor teach it to you? And notice the differences and start to figure out the why, right? It, and Jeremy talks about this a lot. If you can know the why you can learn more. And I think that understanding why things changed and how things changed.
can really make a huge difference in how you learn the art that you're learning. But I don't think it will make you punch and kick better.
mark (11:14.765)
Hmm. Give it another 20 years. Give it another 20 years and you start to understand what I'm thinking because if you know the why and the why is the most important. One of the two most important words in karate. Why the other one is yet as you said the other day.
Andrew Adams (11:16.194)
What do you think of that?
mark (11:36.261)
At 65, the Y allows me to punch and kick with somebody half my age. I can stand with them half my age. If I did not know the Y, I do not believe I could do that.
Andrew Adams (11:54.894)
Hmm, interesting. You know, when we release this episode, if you're, whether you're watching or listening, let us know. I'm really curious to know what other people think. Do you think that knowing your lineage will help you kick or punch better? You know, I think it might make you more effective because you might potentially have a better understanding of what to hit and why, but at its root,
I don't know that it will make, for me, I'm not sure that it'll make me stronger or faster. But Mark, you are, as you said, you're 65. I just turned 48 a few days ago. You've got a couple of years on me. Maybe I will feel differently in 20 years.
Um, here's the next question then we're talking about right now. We're talking about direct lineage, or at least I think we are in terms of who your instructor was and who their instructor was and who their instructor was and so on and so forth, but let's, let's go on a slightly different angle here and talk about the lineage in terms of the legends, right? Um, I don't study Tang Tsu Do, but
mark (12:48.773)
Mm-hmm.
Andrew Adams (13:08.546)
one of the most famous Teng Shudo practitioners would be Chuck Norris, right? If someone doesn't know, I mean first off who's not going to know who Chuck Norris is? Maybe he's a bad example. Everybody knows who Chuck Norris is. But if you are a martial artist in Teng Shudo and you wouldn't know and you didn't know that Chuck Norris was a Teng Shudo practitioner, or if you're a Kempel practitioner and you don't know who Ed Parker was, for example,
mark (13:12.47)
Yes. Yep.
Andrew Adams (13:38.45)
Let's talk about that a little bit. Like I definitely feel, I'm gonna let you go first. What do you think?
mark (13:45.313)
Well, the thing is, as I said early on in my original style, which was Kempo, the instructor I trained with had a picture of William Chow in the center of the room. We had no affiliation with William Chow. I don't even think we can, we could trace it back to him. We did, we did a style of Kempo and... Hmm. I, you would run hard pressed.
to try to trace it back to him. And this is back in the 70s, mid 70s, around 74. William Chow was still alive, I believe, at that time. So, knowing your own lineage, finding your own lineage.
Andrew Adams (14:23.758)
Mm-hmm.
mark (14:31.989)
I mean, having the... It was weird. But now we have all the roots.
mark (14:41.897)
And we have so much we can find positive on the internet as well. Nowadays, if you're a Kempo Karate stylist, you can go on the internet. I'm sure you can find Ed Parker, Jess Speakman, even some little bit about William Chow on there. Now you can see where the little lady goes and right up through that way.
Andrew Adams (15:00.13)
Mm-hmm.
Andrew Adams (15:05.794)
Yeah, I think knowing whether you train in a certain style or not, I think knowing the pioneers to a degree, but the big names in those styles, I think is important just again to know the why, to know where it came from and where as a person, who it came from.
Um, and who were the big proponents of it? You know, whistle kick put out a book a while ago, um, called the legends. And it had Cynthia Rothrock, Bill Wallace, um, June Rhee, Fumio Demera, Jeff Speakman, um, and not knowing who these people are, I think. Is a shame for the younger generation to not know who Bill Wallace is. Um.
mark (15:32.471)
Yes.
mark (15:39.533)
Mm-hmm.
mark (15:43.675)
Mm-hmm.
mark (15:56.958)
Yes. Yep.
Andrew Adams (16:02.338)
to not know who Cynthia Rothrock is, you know? You don't have to be a kickboxing practitioner to still know who the top names were, you know, 20, 30 years ago. Actually, gosh, at this point, we're talking 40 years ago.
mark (16:04.901)
Mm-hmm.
mark (16:12.249)
Right. Yep.
mark (16:16.817)
Mm-hmm.
mark (16:20.553)
I definitely agree. I mean, a lot of people, as you mentioned, they're still living. So a few have passed, but most are still living. Not to recognize these people as they are is...
A loss, a loss. And I don't want to see the youth lose these great inspirations in the martial arts, either living or passing on before.
Andrew Adams (16:45.782)
Yeah, no, absolutely. And most of them, I mean, not only are they still alive, I mean, unfortunately, Jumri has passed on, Fumio Demura passed earlier this year. But the other ones that I named, and make no mistake, I'm not saying these are the only legends we have. Don Wilson was another one that's up there in terms of kickboxing. But these aren't the only legends that we have in the martial arts, but not only are they still alive, you can still train with them.
mark (16:54.57)
Mm.
mark (17:03.113)
Right.
Andrew Adams (17:15.554)
They, every single one of them is still teaching seminars and actively out in the martial art community. And I think we as instructors should do, and I will speak, I'm not gonna speak for you, I'll speak for myself. I think I should do a better job of making sure that my students recognize some of these older generation.
mark (17:15.778)
Oh yeah.
Andrew Adams (17:43.766)
so they understand where their art came from and how they took their art and made it their own. Because I think that can help them take the art I'm teaching to them and start to make it their own once they get to a certain level. I don't think Yellow Belt should be making the art their own, but you get what I'm saying.
mark (17:43.993)
Yes.
mark (17:50.498)
Yes.
mark (17:54.382)
Yes.
mark (18:02.285)
when they get there, definitely. Now, one thing, especially about the living legends, because when I started turning to martial arts, actually Beverly, which is like one town over from where I'm sitting right now, Remy Precious trained there and had seminars. So did Wally J. And they both had seminars. I did not go. And it's truly a shame I did not go. So all these things should be embraced.
Andrew Adams (18:26.165)
Mmm.
mark (18:32.342)
And as you said...
pass it down to the next generation.
Andrew Adams (18:37.718)
Yeah, yeah, exactly. What are we missing? What did we not chat about?
mark (18:46.421)
What did we not shout about?
mark (18:53.581)
I have to think for a second. What did we not chat about? There's so much to chat about. I think we get to the core of it all. But if you, read a book. You can start on. I want to.
Andrew Adams (19:01.963)
Yeah.
Andrew Adams (19:06.602)
Yeah, yeah. So, you know, I was going to say, you know, if you're listening, tell us, what did we miss? You know, I think the two things we really hit upon is knowing your lineage in terms of your own school. Obviously, I would hope you know your instructor's name. How far back can you go? You know, at a minimum for my students that I have, they have to know their instructor, which is my instructor, because I co-teach.
mark (19:13.746)
Yep.
mark (19:23.086)
Mm-hmm.
mark (19:35.095)
Mm-hmm.
Andrew Adams (19:37.022)
You know, I teach with you when he's gone around and whatnot but so they have to know our instructor and They have to know who his main instructor was and they have to know the founder of the system That's it But knowing how far back they can go would be a good thing to consider So we talked about direct lineage person to person to person to person and then we talked about some of the legends
mark (19:49.293)
Very nice.
mark (19:54.789)
Mm-hmm. Yes.
Andrew Adams (20:04.918)
within certain styles and you know, cause that counts as lineage too, whether it's my lineage or not, you know, knowing who, you know, some of these people we talked about, who Benny Yarkides was, or, you know, Jeff Spiekman, stuff, people like that, even though they don't, they're not in the same style that I do, but knowing who they are, I think can help you understand just martial arts in general better.
mark (20:07.125)
Right. Oh, often. For sure.
mark (20:17.061)
Mm-hmm.
mark (20:30.366)
Oh, let's not forget Seller Free.
Andrew Adams (20:33.182)
Oh, absolutely. Yep, yep. All right, anything else?
mark (20:41.349)
I think we gave them something to think about, for sure.
Andrew Adams (20:45.546)
Yeah, that's all at Whistlecake. That's all we want to do. Did we make you think, uh, and if you disagree with us, let me know. You can email me at andrew, uh, at whistlecake.com. Uh, if you want to complain to Jeremy, Jeremy at whistlecake.com. Uh, um, but I think that'll do it is knowing lineage important. I think in a lot of ways it absolutely is. Um, I, I'm not convinced yet that it'll help me punch better.
mark (20:49.061)
Yep.
mark (21:11.368)
many ways.
Andrew Adams (21:15.33)
But in 20 years, maybe we will revisit this. Episode 1475. I'll have you back.
mark (21:19.022)
Hmm.
mark (21:22.585)
Perfect. Perfect, we can do it.
Andrew Adams (21:27.318)
All right, I guess then until next time.
mark (21:31.385)
Train hard, smile, and have a great day.
Andrew Adams (21:32.681)
Smile.