Episode 774 - Tashi Deb Mahoney

Tashi Deb Mahoney is a Martial Arts Practitioner and Instructor at Mark Warner’s Professional Martial Arts Academy.

What did I think about (Martial Arts) that time? I knew nothing about it. It’s what many people still think about it today… you’re fighting, you’re going to learn how to punch people in the face, you’re going to learn how to kick them. That’s what I thought.

Tashi Deb Mahoney - Episode 774

Supporting a child’s dream of becoming a Ninja Turtle is a great story. However, starting to train in the same class as your child and eventually becoming an instructor is another excellent story in itself. Presently, Tashi Deb Warner is an Instructor at Mark Warner’s Professional Martial Arts Academy. She teaches adults and children as well as Thai Kickboxing classes.

In this episode, Tashi Deb Mahoney talks about the benefits of training on her confidence and some philosophical aspects of martial arts. Listen to learn more!

Show notes

You may check out Tashi Deb Mahoney’s classes on markwarnerpma.com

Show Transcript

Jeremy Lesniak: 

Hey, what's going on everybody? Welcome, this is whistlekick Martial Arts Radio episode 774. My guest today, Tashi Deb Mahoney. I'm Jeremy Lesniak, I'm your host here for the show Founder of whistlekick, where all the stuff we do is in support of traditional martial arts and traditional martial artists, people like you. If you wanna see everything we've got going on, go to whistlekick.com. It's our online home, you're gonna find a bunch of great stuff over there and you'll also find all the stuff that we sell. That's right, we do sell some things, some stuff that you might be interested in, things from training programs to fun apparel like this. This hoodie I got on to events that we're putting on. There's a lot of great stuff over there. And if you use the code podcast15, it's gonna save you 15% on any of the stuff that we have. Now, the show, Martial Arts Radio gets its own website, whistlekickmartialartsradio.com, because we don't name things in a complex way. If you go over there, what are you gonna find? You're gonna find every episode we've ever done, you're gonna find a ton of context for those episodes, transcripts that you can search through or, you know, copy and paste and read on your Kindle or something like that. You're gonna find photos and videos that the guests submit or things related to things that we talk about on the episodes or even links to their social media, their websites, or other topics of interest that may come out of that episode. While you're over there, you can sign up for a newsletter and stay up to date on everything that we've got going on as a company to support you, person that is a traditional martial artist. Now, the goal of the show really whistlekick in general is to connect, educate, and entertain traditional martial artists worldwide and if you want to help us continue to do that, there are lots of things you could do. You could make a purchase. I already told you some of the things we've got going on over there to constantly shifting mix. There's some great stuff over there, protective equipment that keeps going in and out because it's really popular and we order more, and then it sells out, and then we order more, and then that sells out. So, it's kind of a fun problem to have. You could also tell a friend about this or maybe a different episode. The number one way that we grow is word of mouth. People telling other people, hey, if you checked out this whistlekick company and the stuff they're doing, I really like what they stand for, or whatever it is you wanna say to them. Or you could join in our Patreon, patreon.com, patreon.com/whistlekick. You can get in as little as two bucks a month. The price goes up from there. Our top tiers a hundred dollars a month, and at each tier, we give you overwhelming value. How do I know it's overwhelming value? Cause people don't stop. People don't quit their Patreon. It just constantly grows because we make sure it does because we have somesaying that by giving you great stuff at two bucks a month, you're gonna get some behind-the-scenes. You're gonna get to know who's coming up on the show. At upper tier, you're getting bonus audio and video episodes. If you like this show and you want more, well this is the easiest way to get more. At the top two tiers, you get access to our school owner's mastermind. There is no better way for you to grow your school than to join in with this really tight-knit, open, very smart group of successful martial arts schools, and let's not forget it becomes business write-off at that point. So, why not? Why would you not do that? And our biggest fans know that we have a family page, the whistlekick.com/family page. You gotta type it in and we update it at least weekly with behind-the-scenes. Again, exclusive stuff. We don't repeat the same stuff everywhere to give you more context, more value to what whistlekick is and who we are, and enhance your understanding of being part of our family. So there we are. Now today's episode with Tashi Deb Mahoney. I've got the pleasure of getting to know Tashi Deb over the last couple years. She's a wonderful, wonderful person. And we sat down to talk. Now, we didn't really know what we were gonna talk about because let's face it, I rarely know what I'm gonna talk about with guests. We just see what happens. But we ended up in some really interesting kind of deep philosophical locations. And if you know anything about me, you know, I love going into those areas, those sometimes dark corners of martial arts conversation and I won't say we got into anything dark, but we did get into some stuff that isn't discussed very often and I had a blast doing it. I think you'll have a blast listening and here we go. How are you Deb?

Deb Mahoney: 

Hello. Good. How are you doing?

Jeremy Lesniak: 

I'm great! I'm great! Thanks. Thanks for doing this. I appreciate it.

Deb Mahoney: 

Oh, this is great. Yeah, this'll be fun.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

Yeah.

Deb Mahoney:

 Looking for fun.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

Good.

Deb Mahoney: 

Yeah.

Jeremy Lesniak:

Should we dive in?

Deb Mahoney: 

Oh, we should dive in. Yeah, we should.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

Let's dive in. Let's dive in.

Deb Mahoney: 

Absolutely.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

So let's... I know you like, a little bit.

Deb Mahoney: 

A little bit. Yeah.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

You know, just enough that I think it's gonna help me ask some questions.

Deb Mahoney: 

Okay.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

So let's start here. I know, if I remember it correctly, you started as an adult.

Deb Mahoney: 

I do.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

And I always find those stories, those kind of genesis stories really interesting because the whys are so compelling. So let's start there.

Deb Mahoney: 

Sure.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

Why did you start training?

Deb Mahoney: 

Okay. Well, I think it's a very typical story. I mean, it happens to everybody. My five-year-old son wanted to be a ninja turtle.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

Why does he wanna be a ninja turtle?

Deb Mahoney: 

I mean, hey, you know, so how can you help me, mom? I wanna be a ninja turtle. I said, oh no, you don't, sweetheart. No, no you don't. So he said, yeah, I do. Now, I was 35 at the time. I had, Shane was five, and then Darby was a year old. And I said, look, look hun, you know, he wanted to do karate. Karate, not karate. You know, karate, I'm gonna do karate. I said, okay. I knew nothing about it. We had horses. I said, honey, why don't you take lessons? I'll give you lessons. And you... whoops! I said, why don't you go to a stable and take some lessons? We've got the horses grinding and he was like, we have horses? I said, yeah, those things in the backyard, you know, they're horses and I didn't wanna do that. I said, how about tennis? Tennis is great. You know, I mean, it's fairly safe. You know, he might get hit in the head with face with a ball or something. It was pretty safe. No! Swimming, no! Thinking of all these things. He'd already tried as a three-and-a-half-year-old or so, he had tried the little hockey thing, you know, skating. That did not go so well cause he said, why are these people trying to knock me over? I said, well, because that's part of it. They kind of, you know, he says, no, no. So that wasn't for him. So I said, all right, look, so you wanna do karate? All right. There's a place in Ipswich. I've seen it. We drive by there. My uncle lived down the street, you know, I said, that's the only thing I knew. Now, this was in '87, I think it was '86, '87. And, you know, there was that one school. And I said, all right, I'll make an appointment, you know, I'll give a call, make an appointment. So I did. So I took him over there and walked in and the instructor was very nice, you know. He was just, you can tell when someone you know cares right away, looks you in the eye, and was very nice and everything. And I said, and I'm kind of going like this to him, no, I don't want him to do this. I don't want him to do this. So, you know, I'm winking going like, I'll slip you some bucks under the table if you say, you know, this isn't for you. You know what I'm saying? So what did I think at that time? I knew nothing about it. It's what many people still think today. You're fighting. You're gonna go in there, you're gonna learn how to punch somebody in the face. You're gonna learn how to kick 'em, you know. That's what they think. And that's what I thought.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

Yeah.

Deb Mahoney: 

So we started that journey. We went in and of course, he still was all kinda, you know, I'd be a ninja turtle and the fellow was...

Jeremy Lesniak: 

Because a five-year-old's not turned off by violence.

Deb Mahoney: 

Oh no, not at all. Even...

Jeremy Lesniak: 

Five-year-old thinks violence is the best.

Deb Mahoney: 

That's kind of the nature of the beast...

Jeremy Lesniak: 

Yeah.

Deb Mahoney: 

At that age. And it's normal, you know. So, we started, I said, okay, you can do this, you can try it. So I think we signed up for a trial or something. It was so long ago, I can't remember how we did it. He started training and I started watching and I'm like, Hmm, oh, this is interesting, you know. Cause I thought it was just all punching and kicking. And this instructor was very good because he would explain and he'd say, now remember, you know that you have to use it appropriately, da da da. These are little five and six-year-old kids. And I watched for about six months and the instructor kept saying, hey, you know, you seem kind of interested in it. You should try it. And I said, well, I'm pretty busy, you know, I've got my horses, I'm working, I do this and that. But the whole time he says, well, you're here anyway, so you know, you could take a class after, do this or whatever. So he was trying to make it work for me.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

Yeah.

Deb Mahoney: 

And I thought, well, maybe if I can get reinforcements. So there was another mother whose son was in that class, same age. The kid was the same age. I said, Donna, Donna, would you like to do this? And she goes, oh, I don't know. I never thought about doing something like this, you know. I thought it was just for kids and so many people think that. ThenI had another friend that I taught with, you know, in the elementary school, and I had mentioned something to her and she said, you know, I've always wanted to do that. I said, Ellen, really? You wanted to do karate? And she said, yes. So the three of us ganged up on the instructor and said, if we can stand in the back, you know, just leave us alone. Let us stand in the back. We're gonna give it a try. And he says, of course, yeah, you can stand in the back. So we stood in the back and you know, we've talked a few times, Jeremy. I mean, you know, I'm pretty social and I express myself quite well.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

I certainly agree with that.

Deb Mahoney: 

There you go. Well, but back then I was very shy and interesting, and I did not have, and I think the shyness came about. I didn't have confidence in my physical abilities. You know, I was uncoordinated. I got kicked outta ballet when I was like five. You know, the woman said, forget it, you know, she's not gonna make it. So I didn't even like it. But anyway, you know, I wasn't coordinated. Basketball was a challenge, you know, trying to run and bounce that ball at the same time. I mean, all those things. I did ride horses. I started when I was 10, and I did quite well with that.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

Which is not easy. As someone who, you know, could hop on a horse and feel adequate?

Deb Mahoney: 

Somewhat. Yeah.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

With the experience that I've had, it's not easy. So, I think that's much more complicated than getting a ball to go where you want it to go. The horse has a mind of its own. It can make decisions.

Deb Mahoney: 

Yeah. You hadn't worked it out.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

Yeah.

Deb Mahoney: 

But it taught me so much because you have to compromise and you have to work with a living creature. So it's not like, you know, you have to survive. And I mean, I had crazy horses, so I'd be on the ground more than I was on the saddle sometimes, but I still didn't have the feeling that I was coordinated enough to do it. You know, I'd see people, you know, punching with one hand, kicking with the other, doing this and that. I'm thinking, oh man, I'm never gonna be able to do that. You know, I could sit on that horse, I could feel him, I could do dressage, I could do, you know, three days of venting, I could do all this, but I always thought it was the horse that was doing it, you know, more so than I...

Jeremy Lesniak: 

Sure.

Deb Mahoney: 

You know, giving me, gimme a good horse and I'm all set. So I started training and Shane continued to train and I really thought, wow, this is a lot more than it seems, you know, on the outside. I mean, I started to discover things about myself, like, I can do that. I can and I'm pretty strong and, you know, all those things that, you know, kind of came to light. So, to make a long story short in this part of the interview, the other two dropped out. I think they might have gotten to purple belt maybe something like that.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

Okay. So, they lasted a little while, not just a week or two.

Deb Mahoney: 

Yeah, they lasted a little while and they enjoyed it. You know, it's just that I don't think they were getting the same internal feeling that I was getting. You know, when we talked about it or something like that, it was like, oh, this is something to do. Yeah, I work up a sweat, I feel a little stronger, but I don't think they had the same feeling that I had. That was almost a spiritual kind of thing, you know. And so, I did continue. Well, that instructor left that particular location, so we ended up going. And I tried the new instructor that came in and like so many things in life, you have great instructors and you have some that aren't nice people. But I think he was pushed into this role before he was ready.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

Yeah.

Deb Mahoney: 

And he started to teach me like kata five when I was working on kata two. And I'm like, I'm so confused, you know. And he was not confident.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

Sure.

Deb Mahoney: 

And so we left and went to another location. The school had another location that was actually closer to our house, but I hadn't known about it at the time and continued training. So that's how I began.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

Okay.

Deb Mahoney: 

And I could tell you about a little bit about the journey.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

Well, there's a part of the journey I wanna go to cause you hit on something that, you didn't use this wording, but I think it's really important. Essentially, you found a why pretty early. You know, your original why was this is interesting. You were subjected to it. This is my mother's origin story as well. She watched me train for a couple years and then she said, I'm gonna give this a shot, and she, if I remember correctly, just as you joined with a few other moms that were watching, right? So there was that internal support group.

Deb Mahoney: 

Yep.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

But you found something fairly quickly...

Deb Mahoney:

 Yeah.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

That changed your why, that the others did not. And it becomes really clear when we look back over time in hindsight, but it sounds like you were pretty aware of it in the moment. And I'm curious if you can bring us back to that time and talk about what discovering that growth that, hey, I'm kind of strong, hey, I can do this. What that discovery process felt like as it unfolded?

Deb Mahoney: 

Well, as it unfolded, I mean, it didn't happen obviously overnight.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

Sure.

Deb Mahoney: 

But I began to see how my training at the dojo affected other aspects of my life. And all of a sudden, you know, I did ski. So, wow! My skiing, I was more confident. You know, I thought, okay, if I can spar, if I can stand up to someone that's trying to nail me, I can handle this black diamond you know. Sometimes it wasn't such a great idea, but you know, so it gave me confidence in other areas. And I think that's how I started to see it. I thought, what's different this year? Why am I, you know, able to do things that I was not physically able to do before?

Jeremy Lesniak: 

Yeah.

Deb Mahoney: 

So that was like the physical part. And of course, my riding affected everything really. Because, you know, in our training we used both, I was severely right-handed. I was so dominant that, you know, left hand, I look at it and go, do you belong to me? Oh, hi there, you know. So now, think about riding a horse, you've got two reins, you know, skiing, you've got two skis. All these things started to get better and more comfortable, and I was just more confident. I could take more risks in what I was doing.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

Okay.

Deb Mahoney: 

It's harder to explain the emotional part. I think what started to happen is you work with people on a certain level and you have to trust them. And so you start to kind of build relationships with other people that maybe normally you wouldn't have built.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

Sure.

Deb Mahoney: 

And anytime you have relationships, you grow. You know, you grow in understanding other people and where they're coming from and all that kind of stuff. And one of the biggest things I noticed was I taught school. I started in 1974 and I retired in 2011. And I taught all the way through, even I had my kids, you know, I'd take a couple months off, you know, to pop out a baby and then, you know, go back to work. And I could stand in front now, not just in front of my class because I was comfortable after a few, you know, after a couple years, first years a rocky, any teacher would tell you that.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

Sure. Yeah.

Deb Mahoney: 

I mean, you know, you're not really confident. But after a while, it was like I could stand in front of any group, so I started to do things. I became a mentor trainer for the state of Massachusetts. I did things that shy little me before I started training wouldn't have thought I could do. So, I can't explain it perfectly, but I know that it changed me and changed how I looked at things and what I could do.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

What I find really interesting about what you're saying is the fact that you are an educator and thus educated in education.

Deb Mahoney: 

Right.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

And even with that context and that background and if I did the math right, you know, 35 years of experience teaching in public schools, I don't even know what the math would be on how many kids you worked with over that time.

Deb Mahoney: 

Right.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

It's a huge number. And so, when we take all of that for you to still be able to point to martial arts training and say there's something here that almost defies what we are generally taught and associate with education, and development, and maturing.

Deb Mahoney: 

Yep.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

Anybody who's been training for, you know, more than five or six years, some have trained much less. See exactly what we're talking about? We know most of us are all on the same page about this. But anytime I get to talk to an educator, someone who has a different lens unto what's going on, I always find it interesting because it should be, right, easy for you to say, oh, well, it's just this, but it's not just. There's no just here. And, you know, we can speculate, we can have theory and I've got my ideas on, I'm sure you have your own ideas on it and everybody listening probably have your own ideas on it too. But the fact is, whatever the reason may be, it works. There's something here and remaining persistent. Showing up leads to some pretty awesome stuff.

Deb Mahoney: 

Yeah, it sure does. And you know, I've tried to reflect and analyze and say, well, what is different about, because I obviously, you know, I've been teaching, martial arts since I was a, I think I was a green belt when I started teaching, you know, helping with classes. And so, I've been doing that and I'm thinking what is different about what we do in a dojo, wherever you are, what is different? And then we look at public and or private schools and homeschooling, what is different? And I have some ideas, but I think it's more complex. I used to think that perhaps it's because of the innate, the respect that you really push the idea of respect. And when you're in the public school setting, I mean, I did that in my classroom. You know, we did a lot of responsible classroom kinds of activities and things like that and to, you know, we respect each other, we respect our differences and things like that. But there's something about the training and is it respect? Is it, I don't know, the goal setting, maybe the belt levels, although it shouldn't be. I never cared about my own, you know, that for me. But I don't know what the answer is. I would love to hear from other people and say, you know, other educators perhaps that are training. And we have a lot here. Mark and I were talking earlier and I mean, half the adult class are their teachers.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

Oh, interesting!

Deb Mahoney: 

Oh yeah. High school, elementary, we had a nursery school. They're educators and I think, maybe I could, you know, pull them and say, I want you to step back and say, what is different? Many of their children go here too. So, all I know is when I sat around those meetings at school, and I've even done it, I've advocated for children, post-retirement and gone to different schools and sat on at the table. When everyone gets together and you have the psychologists and the psychiatrist and the, you know, the OT and PT, and then they say, have you considered martial arts for your child? So they know...

Jeremy Lesniak: 

Yeah.

Deb Mahoney: 

What it does if you're committed and you stay. But why? What is it?

Jeremy Lesniak: 

I don't know that I've ever been asked to this question and I don't know that I've ever really thought about it cause school, elementary, high school, college, like the academic side of it wasn't overly challenging for me, right? When you end up doing well in a thing, you don't tend to ask those questions.

Deb Mahoney: 

Right.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

If I had been exceptional in college and, you know, Sheldon Cooper and moved up and everything, right, maybe their questions would've been there. If I had been on the other end of the spectrum, there certainly would've been questions asked. But I think more than anything, what's coming to mind is the way we train, learn, and teach martial arts is fairly innate. It's experiential, it's done in groups, but the progress is individualized. There are clearly defined boundaries and goals as you said. And we understand not only where we are, but where we're headed generally. Things are allowed to take the time that they need to take.

Deb Mahoney: 

I think that might be one of the keys.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

Unlike pretty much every other academic setting where it's arranged in, let's go 9 or 12 months sacraments, right? If you get, if you master the material in four months, well you get to burn the next five and take the summer off. If something takes you longer. Well, that's not acceptable, and now you're remedial and you're pretty much doomed for the rest of your life because of just the institutionalized language. It's gonna be used with you. Whereas heck, I mean, not that it happens often, but you see people who move quickly through certain ranks because things just click or they come in with a certain physical awareness and I think beyond that, I think we could look at the way martial arts is done and say in, in many, perhaps even most schools, there's something very natural about that educational process. And when I think of the way school is done, even more so today it looks like what can we strip away and still have some progress and then verify the progress is being made.

Deb Mahoney: 

Right. Well, that's it. You need to have dipstick assessments and things like that so that you can make sure that, you know, the progress is being made.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

Right. And I'm talking to friends now. You know, I'm 43. I have plenty of friends with kids in different ages, and I'm hearing from not just one or two of them that some of children's academic assessments are showing regression through the course of a year.

Deb Mahoney: 

That's bad.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

Right. And if it was one person say, okay, you know, maybe it's that kid's teacher, or maybe it's that kid, maybe it's something going on at home or, right. It's pretty easy to dismiss, but I'm hearing about this as more than just one-offs. And yet I can't think of a time when I saw someone consistently show up to a martial arts school and they got worse

Deb Mahoney: 

And got worse. Yeah. Exactly.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

At the very least, they stay static but if they show up and they're having at least some fun, somewhere, they're gonna progress in something.

Deb Mahoney: 

Well, I don't know if the answer or one of the answers would be trying to incorporate some of the Eastern thought and training into Western education. I would love to see martial arts taught in every elementary school, you know? 

Jeremy Lesniak:

Right. 

Deb Mahoney: 

From kindergarten, pre-K, whatever, on way out.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

Oh, but it's gonna make 'em violent.

Deb Mahoney: 

Well, yeah, exactly. Oh, I'll tell you. I mean, I did do that in my classroom. I mean, I don't know if that would be an answer for these particular kids who are regressing, but I have a feeling that if they're regressing if they're not engaged, they're not engaged in the process.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

Yeah.

Deb Mahoney: 

And they see no need to be engaged. There's no goals there. It's like, okay, so I flunk a test, whatever. And you know, I think what happens is they're pushed on to the next grade anyway. And they know that, and it's like, so why do I have to study? Why do this, you know?

Jeremy Lesniak: 

Right.

Deb Mahoney: 

But I think if we took some of the… and this was what, after I got my masters, I did classes in brain development. I was very fascinated with that and you know, things like that. But what I wanted to do is I wanted to matriculate for my doctoral degree in incorporating Eastern thought into Western education. And I did some courses and I kind of thought, okay, that means I need, really need to go to China and spend a couple years there. I don't think that's gonna work right now. So I didn't see it through, but I'm thinking that we have something, we are fortunate to have something that really helps people understand who they are, what they can do and they're excited about it.And if we can bring that into the classroom, which I did honestly try to do in my classrooms, and as I said, I taught them some simple techniques and things like that for self-defense with parents' permission.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

Sure.

Deb Mahoney: 

I did have one experience. Let's see, I was probably in the nineties and I was doing a multi-age classroom. That was my thing. I started multi-age, which was first and second or second and third. And one of the students, wonderful kid, fabulous artist, just a real sweetheart. It was the open house night, you know, that you have at the beginning of the year. And first, we go down to the cafeteria, they introduce all the teachers, da da da. The principal gives a little chit-chat, and then you go back to the classroom and do your thing. Right. So I was leaving the cafeteria, the auditorium, and going back to the classroom and I was accosted by this gentleman. He stood up in front of me, and this is coming off of something that you said, and he's, you know, kind of a big guy. And he kind of stood in front of me and he goes, you and I point this finger at me and I'm going like, I'm looking around like me.  And there were a lot of other people and parents around me, he says, you teach violence. Now. I hadn't done anything in the classroom with martial arts yet. It was early in the year. I hadn't done anything. But I was teaching outside of the school, you know, at the dojo. You teach violence, you teach people how to kill each other. And he's yelling and screaming at me and I'm going, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. You know, you have the wrong idea. And he was vehement and he was a minister. Didn't have a church. But you know, it was a very interesting, and I was like, there we go again. No, we teach people how not to fight. How to understand, how to get out of situations, things like that. But he wasn't listening and he was yelling and filing. I think the principal came or something, hauled him away. But that was, and then, you know, I had the child for the rest of the year and I actually ended up having his brother and things. I mean, it would seem fine so I don't know. But that's what you said, you know when you brought up its violence and so many people still believe that.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

Yeah. There's a perception that I think very few in the martial arts space would hold, but a sizable percentage of the general population does that. If you remove the capacity or the discussion of violence, the training of violence, that violence fails to exist. And yet…

Deb Mahoney: 

That's not…

Jeremy Lesniak: 

Look at every animal when they're young. How do they learn about the world? They're violent with their siblings.

Deb Mahoney: 

Absolutely. Look at the tiger cubs playing when they're bathed. Just…

Jeremy Lesniak: 

Yeah. The only reason it's not violent is cause they're not strong enough to be violent yet.

Deb Mahoney: 

They have little milk teeth though. They're not gonna rip each other apart

Jeremy Lesniak: 

And young human children do the same thing.

Deb Mahoney: 

Absolutely.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

Anybody who's had at least two kids knows that at some point those kids will beat on each other. 

Deb Mahoney: 

Yeah. They do.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

It is natural. You can't remove it. So if we can't remove it, can we put it in context? Can we gain some understanding? Can we gain some autonomy over it?

Deb Mahoney: 

Absolutely. I think that is an issue with I know on our test paperwork, that graduation paperwork we give out, there's a spot half of it is for the classroom teacher to fill out. You know, and asking how they're doing in school and da da da. And the bottom half has one has three questions on it. But one of the questions is, does this student use martial arts outside of the dojo? And right now, we are going through a case where one of the students is actually physically punching or hitting his mother. And that's a very difficult thing because it's not. And she's afraid that it's because he's learning how to do a proper punch or how to throw a proper kick or block or, you know, that he's learning it here. I mean, in my mind it's not that he's… he would be hitting her anyway. If he's angry…

Jeremy Lesniak: 

That would be my thought.

Deb Mahoney: 

And he has that, my thought he would be hitting her anyway. It's not that. But she has that paperwork and we have ways of, okay, you don't graduate, you know, you get a bad comment on here.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

How old is the child? If you don't mind.

Deb Mahoney: 

He is… is he nine?

Jeremy Lesniak: Okay.

Deb Mahoney: 

Eight. Eight. Think he's eight. But he's a good Si. You know, he's kind of husky. Good build on 'em. So we're working with that now. And she's very receptive and she's very responsive. Sure. And she's actually training also. So this is a good thing that they're both, you know, that he's doing it and I'm sure we can help. But that's not usual, you know, we don't normally see that.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

Right. And anybody who runs a school, anybody who's spent a bunch of time knows that Yes, it is entirely possible that you have some people with violent tendencies for whom the violent tendencies are not diluted or diffused through their training. Now, they do have some better tools.

Deb Mahoney: 

Right.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

But if you put them on one side of a balance and you put everybody else who benefits on the other side of the balance,

Deb Mahoney:

 Right.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

It's pretty overwhelming.

Deb Mahoney: 

True.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

It's not even close.

Deb Mahoney: 

True.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

I would rather have one person, one violent person out there who doesn't break their hand when they punch me.

Deb Mahoney: 

Right. Right.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

Versus, you know, the hundreds to thousands on the other side of the scale…

Deb Mahoney: 

Right. Right.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

Who are that much less likely to get into or create problems.

Deb Mahoney: 

Right. No, it's an unusual case, or not unusual, but it's rare. You don't usually see this. But the nice thing is that we have a community as every school has where we hope where they can feel safe coming here, telling us… I mean, how many times have I been in this office talking with a distraught mom who just found out, her husband said, I want a divorce or, you know, these really life-changing things. But they come to us because they know we can support them.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

Sure.

Deb Mahoney: 

And we can support the family. And I think that's part of what I, going way back to the beginning of our conversation, that's something I started to realize, well, this is different from going to art class. I like to paint, you know, going to art class or doing this or that because we were developing these relationships to support one another and trust. So, you know, she…

Jeremy Lesniak: 

Let's talk about that for a moment. You know, building those relationships and that culture, I'm gonna sum it up as culture.

Deb Mahoney: 

Yeah.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

Because as someone, if you had 35 years of public school teaching, you had 35 years not only opportunities, but requirements…

Deb Mahoney: 

Right.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

To build a culture. And I would imagine it's a little bit easier if you're doing multi-year classrooms, cause you end up with a little bit institutionalized and you can bring 'em in then now, you know, you've got some role models for them.

Deb Mahoney: 

Right.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

But you've seen a lot of that. And I think a lot of martial arts schools. either would like to improve their culture or they have no idea how they got the culture that they have. And so they're nervous about replicating it. Do you, do you have any thoughts on that and how

Deb Mahoney:

Oh, I do. And I think. I do think that my career helped me understand how to build culture and you need to build it. You can't just let it happen. You need to build it. And you build it by being the best role model you can be. You know, encouraging and collaboration. You know, I mean, I wasn't the diac. It wasn't like, you do this, you do, you know, I mean, obviously if somebody was being physically inappropriate or something, I would.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

Of course.

Deb Mahoney: 

But it was like, all right, we had our meetings every morning, you know, let's sit down, let's talk about what's gonna happen today. Who needs to share something? What? You have some issues, you know, you build that community. And I was in a martial arts school. I happened to be the first one, and I have to say this, is that I left there many evenings crying. You might say, well, why were you crying, Jeremy? What? Why were you crying? Why were you crying, Deb? And it was because the zeitgeist, the ambient, the culture was negative. I'd go in full of hopes and you know, ooh, maybe I'll get another move on my form today and I wonder what's gonna happen. And many times that didn't happen because I would do my form up to where I had or something. And the instructor who I really never saw do too much would stand up the, well, you know, I mean stand up at the front and he'd go, Matt and I, that meant, no, lousy, bad. So, I remember learning this one form and I think it was at the time, a first-degree black belt, might even been second, I don’t know, but I was learning this form and there was one move in it, and I think I did that one move for six months before they would allow me, or he would allow me to move on, and I would leave thinking, what's wrong? So I went to another instructor that came in frequently, and you may even know this person. I'm not gonna do a lot of name-dropping.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

Nope. Quite all right.

Deb Mahoney: 

This person came in and he's real nice guy and he would teach the classes once in a while. And he said, I went into his office and I said, look, I think I'm gonna quit. You know, I mean, I'm leaving here frustrated. I don't know how to improve. I don't know what to do. And he looked at me and he says, hey, I'm gonna teach you a kung fu form. We didn't do a lot of kung fu. He got out a soft staff, you know, a staff brought me on the floor and said, let's go. I said, really? You're gonna teach me? This is great. So he knew and by doing that, I started learning that form and he was explaining it and it was like, you know, we laugh and da da da. I thought, okay, I guess I can do this. So that got me over that hump. So I kept going back cause I said, I'm not gonna let them stop my journey because I knew that a lot of the content was good, I thought at that time. And it was just that I have to look past this negativity. So when we go back to developing a culture in the school, I think every school owner, every instructor needs to step back and say, are my students at the end of the class smiling, sweaty, happy, chit-chatting? How are they leaving? And I mean, maybe the shy one that's in the car, you've gotta make sure you look, you know, and you touch base with that person and you say, hey, I noticed your kicks are really, really coming up. I can't believe, you know, something that you've noticed. And you build the culture and you introduce people to one another. You know, you say, you know, Sammy, you have such great stances. Jen, would you like to work with Sammy for a while? And then they start doing and they start talking. And then before you know it, they're saying, let's go out for coffee. Or if it's a little kid, you know, can you come to my house today? I'll ask my mommy. So it's very tough. It's very time-consuming and you have to stay on top of it. And it doesn't matter if you're having a bad day, you gotta leave that bad day behind.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

Right.

Deb Mahoney: 

And you leave it in the office or you leave it in your car, well I don't know where you leave it, but you come on and you smile. Even when you answer the phone, you smile because that's going to... so you're setting the example of this is a happy place. It's a place to support everybody and I hope that happens more than not in most schools. You would know more about that because you visit the...

Jeremy Lesniak: 

I think it does, because I think the other way the instructor who stands up at the front... which you know, that exists, but not for long. And they never have a large number of students. The students that those schools tend to retain, frankly, are people that don't like themselves. And so they're getting this external validation that there's something wrong with that.

Deb Mahoney: 

It's not with them. Yeah.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

Whereas, the other way you're talking about it is, it's about progress. It's about growth. It's about loving the training, whatever you want to call it. If you can feel good about what you're doing and if as the instructor you can feel good about what your students are doing, the other stuff tends to fall into place.

Deb Mahoney: 

Yeah, yeah. And you build that so you have that nice... Yeah. I mean, I want my students to come through the door as they do. You know, the door whips open, and hi, hi! They run in, you know, the shoes fly off. You know, that's what they want.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

It's a place they want to be, not a place they have to be.

Deb Mahoney: 

They want to be there. We did have, I'm thinking of a student, a teenager that we had who didn't want to be here. Sister's still here and she's loving it, but he didn't. And my heart was, I said, honey, you don't wanna be here. Tell dad and mom, you know. Maybe it's not for everybody. I know we could have done a lot with him. But if he's not going to be invested, it's better. So finally, they let him do something else, you know, to drop off.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

Yeah. And I look at that and I say, it's not that it wasn't necessarily martial arts was bad for him or not good for him. Maybe your particular school wasn't quite the right fit.

Deb Mahoney: 

Yeah. Fit.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

You know, you can find a shirt on the rack and say, I like this shirt, and it just doesn't, you know what, it kinda cuts you wrong and you like the shirt maybe even looks good on, but it just doesn't feel right. Maybe another school would be better or maybe he just wasn't ready. Maybe there was stuff going on where he needed to get to a certain point before he was ready. And I've always said, when someone doesn't wanna train, when they like, just adamantly are not enjoying their time, let them stop because otherwise they're gonna build a negative association and they're unlikely to go back.

Deb Mahoney: 

Right. That's true for them and it also affects the other students.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

Yes.

Deb Mahoney: 

You know, and greatly because I know when he was, you know, he'd kind of moping and the others were having a great time and you could see them question like, geez, I'm enjoying this so what's up? You know, and they kind of think, am I wrong for enjoying this? So there was definitely, I think it's better just to on a good note and just say, hey, you gave it a good shot, might not be for you, try something else. We're here if you, you know, decide to come back or try another place. And we do, you know, when people come to us, and I don't think this is true of all schools, most perhaps, but when people come to us or call or email or whatever and they say, I'm looking for a taekwondo school. Do you teach taekwondo? No, we don't. Would you like us to help you find a taekwondo school? Oh, would you do that? Sure. We know some in the area. Let's see what, because if they think that that's what they want, now they might think they want taekwondo, but come to us and start doing kung fu and think this is fabulous. But we're not gonna push and say, well come in anyway, let's see, you know. Because I feel if they're that strong about, you know, wanting a specific thing so we try to find and do that and they say, oh, well thank you so much for helping, you know. It's not about, you know, pulling in everybody. You have to be kind of, and that's something I've been thinking about too, is when you have that first meeting, particularly with parents and they bring in a three-year-old, which is fine because we do have a great little class. I mean, my granddaughter's in it and, you know, have fun. They bring them in and they don't really know what they want for them, they'll put down at the bottom and say to have fun and that's great. But they come in and then they maybe do a class and then, oh, they're going somewhere, so then they do in the class and they're very inconsistent. And then after maybe a three-month trial or something, they're gone. And I wish that I could kind of figure out before they started, cause I'm afraid that those people, those children may not try it again. I mean, we've had kids come and try it, you know, they, we had 'em as three-year-olds or four-year-olds and they come back as eight-year-olds or whatever. But I wish we could have a way, I don't know if anybody else out there has something that could help to ascertain whether or not this is something that the parents really want them to do. Because at that point, the child's having fun in class. There's never been an issue with your child not wanting to be there, but the parent has to drive them. So, if the parents get busy and do something else, or if they don't see this child doing, you know, whatever after three weeks, you know. What questions can we ask to say, all right, this is a commitment, this is a training. It's not, you know, a one time like going to the movies and then not going the next week or something. So if anybody has any ideas, I'd love to hear.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

Well the only thought that comes to mind is when you pose that question, instead of making it open-ended where people are trying to get out of that task as quickly as possible, maybe you think of the... cause you probably know, we could probably brainstorm a list of the top seven or eight reasons that someone might wanna put a young student in class. And make them rank them on, you know, one to five, how important is it for your kid to, you know, learn self-defense? If they want their three-year-old learning self-defense, you know, maybe there's a conversation that needs to happen. Or if it's for fun, that to me sounds like they're looking for daycare.

Deb Mahoney: 

Right. Right.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

Right? So if you can list those things out and you make them rank, you know, one to five, or one to three, or important, not so important.

Deb Mahoney: 

Yeah. We do have them on the bottom of the application, of the questionnaire. And it says, you know, circle and there's quite a list. There's a list of like a dozen things. Focus, you know, better self-control and they'll circle, you know, whatever. I mean, some people will say all of the above and circle it.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

Right. But that's a non-answer, right? So if you pull out the ones that you know that certain answers result in likely problematic students and parental relationships, that's where I'd get really specific on you know, making them provide some data for each one. You know, force them to do...

Deb Mahoney: 

How important is this for you?

Jeremy Lesniak: 

Something like that.

Deb Mahoney: 

As most important, like one to which they could do right on that form. Just, you know, list them priority and then as it goes down or something like that. And then it gives us some that would help because it would give us something to hold you know. You told us that you wanted... focus was number one, I've seen your child develop over the past three months much better focus. Is it carrying over into the home life, or the daycare, or...

Jeremy Lesniak: 

Or if focus is really important for them, but that child is not being brought to every class, they're making it to 50% in classes, well now you're providing them mixed signals. It's really important that when you go to class, you pay really strong attention. But yet, you're telling your child that this thing is not actually important cause they're only here half the time.

Deb Mahoney: 

They do not bring 'em. Yeah, yeah.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

And that's, you know, I don't care how old the kid is, they're gonna pick up on that.

Deb Mahoney: 

Yeah. Yeah. True, true. Yeah. So there was another thing that I was thinking about today. Cause you just get my today thoughts cause I can't remember...

Jeremy Lesniak:

I love it.

Deb Mahoney: 

What I was thinking about yesterday so, you know.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

I mean, clearly, we're having no problem keeping this thing going, so by all means keep rolling.

Deb Mahoney: 

Well, I was thinking about the word traditional. And I have, you know, many people that I meet either at tournaments or wherever we're involved with, you know, other martial artists. And they use the word traditional as it has to be traditional. Your martial arts have to be traditional. And I thought about it today, just it popped into my head and I thought about it and I said, well, traditional, the word, the root word is tradition and who makes traditions? People. And some traditions are carried on and some are changed and some are thrown out. I'm sure in everybody's family they've had traditions. Friday night, pizza and beer. Well, the kids don't drink the beer, but you know, Friday night...

Jeremy Lesniak: 

Maybe in Europe.

Deb Mahoney: 

A minor might sneak behind the chair, get outta here, you know. But maybe that will change. Some traditions are good, some traditions probably aren't good, and, but when we use the word traditional, I thought about it and I thought, okay, how, what does that mean to me? I said, well, you know, we study Shaolin Kung Fu with, and I will say Shufu Shady Chun from China, and Sifu Jeffries, Scott Jeffries from Rockland. That's how he introduced us to Shifu and Mark's been to China several times. I've been once, but he's come over here and he teaches us these wonderful Shaolin forms. And yes, they are traditional. I mean, these forms have been the same. Taught the same way for hundreds of years. Okay. I would never disrespect that form. I would never change it. I would do it as best as I could to the way he wants it done because that's respecting that tradition as traditional. But then, you say, but men created these forms and there's only so many ways the human body can move. There's only so many things that really are effective, like, get outta the way, that's effective you know. And I thought about it and I thought, well, you need to find a school that has strong tradition, but it doesn't have to be traditional. And I don't know if that's, that might just be, you know.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

I like it. I see where you're going with that. There's a mental exercise I did not too long ago, and I think when people say you know, that's not traditional. What are they really saying? They're saying, that's not the way I would do it. I don't think that's right. But instead of me owning that and saying, I don't believe what you're doing is appropriate because of my own personal whatevers. I'm going to try to find some objective third-party argument to discredit what you're doing.

Deb Mahoney: 

Right.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

Now, really, what happens if everything remains traditional in the way that that's meant? Martial arts actually gets worse because that means if it's gonna be traditional, I can't do it any differently than my instructor did it. I can only do it in the way that they've done it, and it becomes incredibly difficult to get better than my instructor if I am trying to do everything as my instructor has done it. And if we carry that out generationally, martial arts gets worse. Who wants martial arts to get worse?

Deb Mahoney: 

Right, right.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

And I really like the differentiation that you're making between tradition and traditional because a tradition can be established anytime. We've been doing that for five years.

Deb Mahoney: 

Yeah, yeah.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

Great if it means something, but if something is traditional, it suggests that old is better. Old isn't always better.

Deb Mahoney: 

That's so, exactly!

Jeremy Lesniak: 

We have much better methods for physical development, for learning material. The way you've seen the way that I teach forms. I can teach anybody a form in about 10 minutes.

Deb Mahoney: 

Yeah. Yep.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

And it's completely untraditional.

Deb Mahoney: 

Right.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

But it works really well.

Deb Mahoney: 

It works. Well, with what we know now, like I said, I did a lot of brain research and classes, you know, after my masters, and we've learned so much about how people learn and how the brain adapts and changes and the elasticity of the brain and things like that. So, I mean, we need to look at our tradition or traditional things or look at our tradition and say, does it fit? You know, how can it be made better? Or what can... we always wanna evolve. We always want to grow. And I think by, I use the word open mind and everybody thinks they have an open mind. I've never met anyone who said, I'm close-minded. I don't have an open mind. And I wanna say, I beg to differ. You do. But I'll use that term open mind. And so like your programs that you have with free training day and all on weekend and meeting people of all different levels, all different styles, you learn and you go, wow! Well, that's similar to this, but I like that application. I never thought of that. You know, and you learn this. Now, if I just stuck with traditional and said, all right, let's say, cause we had a background in Kenpo. I got up to my fifth degree in Kenpo. So if I said, okay, so I just take these forms and that's fine. You can teach the forms and keep them the same, that's fine. But when you start to pull them apart and look at applications, it's not just like the first school I was in, we never did applications. We just did forms. And then even following it up with a couple other instructors I had, we didn't do applications. We just, you know, we did the form. And then when we did an application, it was only what the instructor saw in that form. And we weren't encouraged cause I'd be like, all over, you know, I'd be like, oh yeah, but look, that could be this and it could be a grab. And then if, when you do this, and then go, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Stop. Stop. And it would only be taught, so does that take us back to traditional applications? No, I don't think so. I think it's just the way that person, and they wanted you to only do it that way, you know.

Jeremy Lesniak: B

ut it's often hidden behind that word. Well, this is the traditional way, this is the way we do it. This is the correct way.

Deb Mahoney: 

Right.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

Well, it's your way.

Deb Mahoney: 

Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

Why does that have to be my way? I'm never gonna be...

Deb Mahoney: 

And that's why we get into trouble with different people saying, my style is better than yours. You know, my whatever is better. Oh, I could, you know, whatever you wanna look at sparring techniques, whatever, and they'll say my style is better. It's not the style that's better, it's the person. If the person is really good, you know, you say, well, yeah, you're just really good at that, you know, but it's not the style that's better. It's not their tradition that's better, it might be the person. So, you know, keeping that open mind and letting all that light come in. That's what I feel. I feel like, oh, this is so cool, you know. I do see things, you know, you go to a tournament and you see somebody carrying a sword under their arm with a blade up and a form. If I was the judge, I have a problem with that. So you do see some things that you're thinking, oh, that could be fixed a little bit better. Or they don't have a blade line and they're doing something and things just kind of whipping around and they win and I'm like, really? But other than that, and that's more people just aren't aware, I guess of some of the finer points of things. But anyway, so that was my thought for today, the tradition versus traditional. And I think as long as you go to a school where your instructors are always training, and always seeking, and always searching, and curious, you'll be fine.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

Yeah.

Deb Mahoney: 

But you have to have that.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

There's something that, you know, we've talked about it on this show forever. This idea that ego really is the biggest damage done to the arts.

Deb Mahoney: 

Sure is.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

And when someone says, you know, well, you know, I'm working on this material and that's the only material they've ever worked on. And now they've risen up to the point where they're the only person keeping that material and they don't have an instructor cause their instructor passed away and nobody could possibly help them get any better. That's where I think it starts to become really unfortunate because they get better. Maybe they can refine.

Deb Mahoney: 

Yeah.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

But what they're modeling to their students is whether or not they use the words as you said, this is the best thing. Well, this other thing over here could be really valuable. And you get generally two responses if they're questioned. Well, you know, we have an answer to that or you know, this is in here. You don't need that. You know, which is fear. Fear of stepping out and trying that new thing over there.

Deb Mahoney: 

Definitely. Yeah.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

Or it becomes, you know, some kind of, well, you know, once you've mastered this, then go do that. Which is really kind of the same thing with a different face. And its ego, which is religious fear.

Deb Mahoney:

It's ego. Well, I like how you say because I do believe it's fear. I believe it's fear and insecurity. If you are secure in your own being, and a student had questions, say, Hey, we'll try that. We'll go try some kung fu or something, or do whatever, or hey, maybe let me see if we can, you know, work something out, we'll take that form and we'll do put a weapon in your hand and you can do it with a weapon. Let's see how that works. And I do think it's fear. And it's kind of funny because when I think about all the past instructors and people that I've worked with, the ones that were the most fearful and therefore had this ego right up front, because that's their protection, that's their shield. The egos their shield, we’re the big guys. They were the big guys, the big strong guys. The big guys that you'd think would be, you know, like The Rock and be, you know, confident and great. And then when I look and I say, oh, but some of these other people who I think had more challenges getting to where they are, you know, getting to the point that they are, they're the ones that were open-minded and, you know, very open to learning and helping and things like that. So I think that you're right. We go back to ego all the time. It's really unfortunate because I didn't see it so much even in my equestrian life. I showed and I did other things, you know. I was on a drill team and it wasn't like that. People didn't have, the ego wasn't out there and I mean, I knew and met, you know, Olympic athletes and they were like, cool, you know. They weren't, well get outta my way. My horse is better than yours or something, you know. So what is it? Why?

Jeremy Lesniak: 

I think because inherent value from using air quotes in the martial arts, we point to something that is quite subjective rank. In the equestrian world, how would you determine who the best is? Because this is how they show.

Deb Mahoney: 

They have to prove themself every time.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

Right! It was competitive based. Maybe it's subjective, but at least it's all out there for everyone to see.

Deb Mahoney: 

Right.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

And if you're not willing to show up, if you just walk around the bar and saying, I'm so much better. I've been doing this for 40 years. It wouldn't even be fair for me to compete today. None of you would have a chance or would be like, yeah, right. Yeah. Whatever. You could make the same argument in you said Olympic athletes, you know? Take out the martial arts, you know, there's no Bob Slater who's walking around the Olympic barn going, you know what, it is unfair for me to compete. I'm just so good. I'll let you all go and just, everybody should understand that if I went, you know, I would win. But in martial arts, even within the culture of those who compete, there's almost this, I don't know what to call it, this aversion to the thing that those folks even do where they dismiss competition to say, well, you know, in those rules, you know. And those aren't really good rules, right? And that's where you see, you know, MMA arguing against points sparring or arguing against continuous arguing against kickboxing, right? There's this inner debate about the purposes of competition. And so the most people are just completely separate to that. We don't even need to do that. I don't do that. That's not what I do. I don't like that. And so you have something that is wholly subjective, held up as the standard, and the subjective standards don't work.

Deb Mahoney: 

They don't work. They don't work. They don't work at all. Yeah. That takes care of that.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

Yeah. And so that leaves folks like you and I in back the role wearing white belts.

Deb Mahoney: 

Yeah. There you go.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

Happy to learn, you know. We've been training for roughly the same amount of time and I don't think you're any different for me. Somebody has something to teach. I wanna learn it.

Deb Mahoney: 

Oh, I wanna learn it.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

I don't care what it is. I don't care who they, I don't care. And let's face it, when you've been training for decades and you know, next year will be 40 years for me, when you've been training 40 years, it's a lot easier to find people who've been training less time than more time.

Deb Mahoney: 

Right. Oh, definitely right.

Jeremy Lesniak:

So if my standard is this person has to have more time in and more stripes, that's not a very large group. That's depressing.

Deb Mahoney: 

It is.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

I wanna learn as much as possible from as many people as possible. Not from like these four people who fit this mold that I've built for... the only people who are worth learning from, check all of these boxes. And, you know, there's one of them in, I don't know, Bozeman, Montana. And if I can ever make time, I'll go and I'll do a residency for six months.

Deb Mahoney: 

Yeah.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

And until then, you know, everybody just has to accept that I'm as good as I'm going to be. That's so silly in ways...

Deb Mahoney: 

Cause you know. Yeah. You know you learn more from your students...

Jeremy Lesniak: 

Yes.

Deb Mahoney: 

Than they learn from you. I mean, quantitatively, I learn so much because I see, and I don't mean in technique necessarily, but I see if a student is having difficulty with a technique, you step back and you say, now why are they, Hmm. Oh, I see. Okay. Let me explain it this way or show it this way or whatever. Now, that person has actually taught me something.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

Right.

Deb Mahoney: 

It doesn't matter. And I learn things all the time from my peers and it doesn't matter your belt, you know. But I don't think I came into it. I think I have a healthy ego, cause everybody has an ego. You know that. And I think I have a healthy ego and I think I have something to share about the way to do things. Like what? Like running a business, things like that, you know. I have ideas or education, you know, I have ideas about child growth and development and say, okay, no, at this age they're not crossing the midline readily, so let's do this. But I don't have all the answers, so I still am going back to, so why did these really big guys with all these stripes on their belt, walk into that dojo, you know, on the floor, cross their arms and say front kicks, go and have this never showing us anything. It baffles me. I still think that that was like, wow. Why are they like that?

Jeremy Lesniak: 

Because if they do that, nothing they do is ever wrong.

Deb Mahoney: 

Oh, I guess, yeah. Cause they haven't...

Jeremy Lesniak: 

So, I've spent a lot of time unpacking this theory, and I think I've shared it once on the show, but I'm fairly confident in where I've gotten and I'm curious on your thoughts on this. There is an archetype of martial artist. Someone who starts probably in their teens.

Deb Mahoney: 

Okay.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

Maybe as late as early twenties. And physically they just excel. It becomes, maybe they had other sports or maybe they didn't, but for whatever reason they just fall in love with martial arts and they get really good, really fast.

Deb Mahoney: 

Okay.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

And maybe the way that manifests is they compete quite often. It's that they compete and they do exceedingly well. And they finally have this thing that they can point to that makes them feel good about themselves. And they say, okay, I'm good at this. And they progress through rank fairly quickly and probably mid to late twenties, they have their own school and they're probably as good, if not better than they used to be with their physical skills and their students come in and maybe they compete a bit, but at the very least they have pictures on the wall of their former exploits and their trophies all over. And that instructor becomes much, much lauded, celebrated, praised for what they have done and their physical abilities. But as their students start to get better, they start to pull back.

Deb Mahoney: 

Right. Okay.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

Because they've raised really good students, cause they are very good themselves and they're probably at least decent at teaching what makes them really good. And so their students are good now and they say, wait a second, I don't wanna lose face in front of my students because the whole culture of this school is that I am the best and I am untouchable.

Deb Mahoney: 

The best, the pinnacle. Yeah.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

And I can't show that I'm fallible.

Deb Mahoney: 

Yeah, that makes sense.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

So, that's when they're saying, you know, they're not demonstrating the form, they're making somebody else demonstrate the form.

Deb Mahoney: 

Right, right.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

Well, you've gotta fix this. Okay, we'll just do that part. Oh, you know what, forget it. You're not ready, not showing it. But as they age, you know, 40s, 50s, 60s, their physical skills are... because not only is their physical body aging, which is inevitable. Kind of can't go around that.

Deb Mahoney: 

I saw the cane you brought in.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

But now, they're not even putting in the time. They're not practicing as much with other people. The very things that they could do to remain better longer, they're not doing. And they start to realize, okay, I've built this whole system that is dependent on me being perceived as untouchable and I know I'm not anymore.

Deb Mahoney: 

Yeah.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

So I have to do everything I can to hold onto that.

Deb Mahoney: 

Yeah. So there's the fear aspect, if that's...

Jeremy Lesniak:

 It's fear of looking fallible.

Deb Mahoney: 

Yeah.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

And the other piece I think is really important in there is that as they come through their teens, 20s, even 30s, they generally have an instructor. And that instructor lets them get away with all this. Instead of recognizing, you know what, this person's turning into a bit of a putts.

Deb Mahoney: 

Yeah. So you have...

Jeremy Lesniak: 

And I should hold them accountable and I should say, wait a second. Yeah, your physical skills are great, but you're starting to become a jerk and we need to talk about that. They let them go with it and it becomes a pattern. And the young bucket, it's almost always a guy, right?

Deb Mahoney: 

Yeah. You know? Yeah. I don't know any girls that I ever had.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

We see, you know, the senior student who is quite good and goes off and sees competitive success and they get to a point where they want more. And they're not being modeled with more, they're being modeled with ego.

Deb Mahoney: 

Ego, yeah.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

And so they've been pumped up that competitive success means that you're the best in the world and there's usually some argument. It's generally about rank or money and now they split. And I watch it happen generation after generation. And if it happens in one school, you can usually watch it fall down the line.

Deb Mahoney: 

Yep. Absolutely. I've seen it. I've seen it myself. So, what we're saying is that actually, in this, the way you presented it is that the ego-heavy, top-heavy person was created by not being called, you know, like, hey, you're being a jerk, you know.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

Yeah.

Deb Mahoney: 

You know, yeah, you're good at that but you know what, let's sit down and do a math problem or something. You know, so the person was allowed to develop that way and then real, and got to a point where you are going to slow down. I mean, in my brain, I can do everything that I could do at 35. I started when I was 35, so I've been training for 35 years cause I'm 70. And my brain says, okay, jump spinning back. You know, do, yep, yep. And I can show it and do it, but it's certainly not going to be, you know, I'm not kicking the top of the bag or whatever. But you have to realize that that's gonna happen. I don't hesitate showing it. And I will tell my students, you can do better than that. I'm gonna show you how to do it. But now, and you know, Tashi marks the same way, but now you can do it because you're young, you're flexible, you've got those quick twitch muscles going and you're, you know. And they're fine with it. They're fine with it. Nobody has to be the perfect, do everything perfectly. You don't have to as long as you can explain it and show and then you have someone, you know, we have someone in class and say, oh, I know you did a great job with that kick, would you please demonstrate?

Jeremy Lesniak: 

I would go even further to say that there is nothing that better supports a learning environment in the martial arts than instructor who is willing to not be perfect in front of their students.

Deb Mahoney: 

Yeah, absolutely.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

If you can look at your instructor and say, wow, my instructor, yeah, they do that better than me, but actually I do that thing over, you're better than them.

Deb Mahoney: 

Yeah.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

And they're okay with that. How great is that? How freeing is that for your students that they don't have to hold themselves to a perfect standard?

Deb Mahoney: 

Right. Right.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

You can't be perfect...

Deb Mahoney: 

That's the way it should be.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

Exactly! You know, there's an example that comes to mind. I never voice this publicly and I always remove as much detail so nobody could ever track it back. But there was a circumstance where I saw a higher-ranking instructor who I had never seen do a forum.

Deb Mahoney: 

Wow. Yeah.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

And I caught them doing a forum and I was watching, and it was beautiful. And I was so in awe watching. And as soon as they saw I was watching, they stopped.

Deb Mahoney: 

Whoa.

Jeremy Lesniak:

And walked away.

Deb Mahoney: 

Because they were afraid they weren't gonna be perfect?

Jeremy Lesniak: 

I suspect now, and at the time, I didn't quite know. I was younger. I was in my late 20s.

Deb Mahoney: 

Yeah.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

But when I think about that circumstance now and knowing that person a bit better, I think that's what it was. They didn't want to mess up, they didn't wanna look imperfect. They were probably trying to work something out. They weren't just practicing for the sake of killing time. They were practicing.

Deb Mahoney: 

Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

They were trying to get themselves better. I thought it was beautiful.

Deb Mahoney: 

Wow.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

To watch that process of someone getting better at something, I think is amazing. I love watching that. I don't care whether it's martial arts or archery or equestrian events or building a house, you know, I love watching people get better at things. That's something that's really inspiring to me, and I think to most people.

Deb Mahoney: 

Yeah. Well, I think it opens up the teacher-student relationship as far as them trusting you too. Because the more they know, I mean, again, going way back when I first started the instructor, you knew his name and that was it.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

Yeah.

Deb Mahoney: 

You didn't know where they lived, what kind of background, you know, did they go to school? Did they go to college? Are they married? Did they have children? You didn't know anything. And that was purposely designed that way that you didn't...

Jeremy Lesniak: 

It was really weird when you saw them at the grocery store wearing jeans.

Deb Mahoney: 

Oh God. Well, I usually get that. But you know what they say to me when they'll see me and go, I've never seen you with clothes on. And all the people in the whole store go, what?

Jeremy Lesniak: 

Yep. It's one of my favorite martial arts isms because we all know what it means and nobody else does.

Deb Mahoney: 

Nobody else does. They all look horror.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

It's the funniest thing.

Deb Mahoney: 

Like this child.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

Especially if it's a kid. Yeah. If it's a kid saying that to you, woo.

Deb Mahoney:

 Yeah. But it's the idea of trust with you know, how can you trust someone who you really only know their name? And you never see them do anything, and they just stand up like in the front of the class as a figurehead and tell you what to do. Okay, take your hand, do this, and you're gonna, I always felt like I couldn't trust the person because they weren't a real person. You know, they weren't real to me. And I think that's so important that you have to go back to the culture, developing the culture of your school. You have to be real. You have to make mistakes. You have to have bad days even though you don't let it affect your teaching on the floor. You know, you leave it behind, but, you know, we don't share everything. But if someone asks me a question, I answer it truthfully, you know. And they get to know, well, do you have animals? Yeah, I have chickens now. You know, we always had chickens, but I don't have any horses anymore. And we start to talk and then you start to develop that camaraderie and they, oh, I have chickens too. Have you had trouble? Are they not laying right now? Because mine are holding back. I got one egg today. That was it, outta 20 chickens.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

Do they need more light?

Deb Mahoney: 

Yeah. Well, yeah, that's usually it and they molted so. You know, I know why it is, but you know, you'll have that relationship and so when people say, I wanna build a better culture, be yourself. Be, you know, who are you and be you. And with all your, you know, foibles and, you know, you might, I don't know, have the school might not be as clean as you would like, or they don't get back to you right away with the email. I don't know. But you have to be yourself and just. And then people start to, they'll trust you. And if you don't have trust, and I'll tell people that because when they're trying so hard, the new students, and they're trying so hard and they're trying to get it right, and they're, oh, again, I said, trust me, you're doing fine. This will all come out. You just have to trust us. Follow the program. You know, just don't worry about it. And when they relax and do that, they go, oh, you're right. Okay. I see. And they, you know, so that would be my, yeah, be yourself, you know.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

Well said.

Deb Mahoney: 

Yep, yep.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

So what's next for you? And I know you spend a lot of time training and teaching and I know you're enjoying it. At least, I assume you're enjoying it just based on...

Deb Mahoney: 

Yes, for the most part, I think, yeah.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

The expression I see on your face in photos and the times I've been there. But what's next? You know, if you look out over the next few years.

Deb Mahoney: 

Okay.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

What's coming for you?

Deb Mahoney: 

I mean, I have dreams. I designed a beautiful school, you know, architecturally on paper things like that. And I thought it, well, if I ever got a windfall or lottery or something like that, because it's a multimillion dollar building, you have to buy land. So you know, I'm always thinking about how do we bring the art? And I truly believe it's an art to more people. And really, I mean, I think everyone should train. I mean, I so believe that and that's kind of what I like, how can we do this? So I'm out in the community, you know, I'm in Rotary. I work at both the schools. I do the elementary schools. I do things. How can we, that's my immediate goal is just to kind of try to bring the art to more people. I do counsel on aging, self-defense, I just finished a program at one of the elementary schools just to kind of... and I really try to spread the joy. I think, when I go in to do these programs, I want people to understand that it's fun, it's joyful. You can have a good time. It's not work. It's a good time. It's fun. And try to get them in. And so I have that kind of that idea of how do we bring the school to the next level. You know, so I can use advice because I know you're great with marketing advice. And you know, personally, people will ask me, they'll say, well, how long are you gonna do that kung fu stuff? My mother, when I first started, okay, she's been gone like 25 years now or whatever, but she said, why are you doing that kung fui stuff? And I said, well, mom, it's karate, because that's what was at the time. And it's not, but, you know, and she was like, didn't understand. Personally, when people ask me, how long are you going to do this? I say forever because I'm afraid to stop. I know what it does for me. And I know when I go for my checkup, my doctor will say, whatever you're doing, don't stop because you're 70 years old. I got you down here for, you know, physically 50, 45, you know, all your blood work and everything and whatever. I know I have a lot of wrinkles and everything, but, so I think, oh my God, I don't wanna stop. I mean, that would be like stopping to take new, you know, food or something like that.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

Right. How long are you gonna eat healthy? How long are you going to exercise? How long are you gonna have a positive outlook onto the world?

Deb Mahoney: 

Forever.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

Like, why wouldn't you do a thing that works so well for you?

Deb Mahoney: 

Yeah. Well, I think, sometimes you question, sometimes you say am I spending too much time on one aspect of my life? And it's become, you know, a big part of my life, but it affects everything, you know. My health, my spirituality, everything, my friendship socially. But every once in a while you do step back. I love to paint. I love art. That was my minor in college.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

Okay.

Deb Mahoney: 

And my master's was in creative arts. So I love that, I have some time, but I don't have the inspiration. And to really do your art, you need to have the inspiration. And to put that easel, you know, the canvas on the easel and just say, okay, I'm going to spend some time now. I do have an inspiration. I haven't, you know, that's kind of frustrating. I would like to ride again. I haven't ridden in years. That's something I would like to do. So I say, how do I work that in.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

With a sword.

Deb Mahoney: 

With a sword? What?

Jeremy Lesniak: 

You just ride with a sword. I think the rest of it will figure itself out. Just ride around with a sword, chop things. I don't know what it looks like, but it sounds like a great time.

Deb Mahoney: 

And they'll say that horse had a head when you left. Oops! Oh, well that was the number six strike I think that did that. So I don't know, for me, I have a lot of things I wanna do. And I love to travel, you know. And that's been nice as far as the martial arts goes because when we were doing all the tournaments, I mean, we were in Bermuda, Quebec a lot, Jamaica, you know, travel China, traveled around and so I'd like to do that more. I think everybody would like to travel more. I mean, that's Aruba. Love Aruba. You know, the Southwest is one of the places I love to go, but there's nothing like going out onto the desert and doing your forms. It's just unbelievable. You know, you just, I can't explain it, but it's just a wonderful thing. So, and that, and just, you know, stay healthy,, spread the love as best we can, and I think that's what it comes down to. Be a good role model for my grandchildren. You know, I have four and one, the three-and-a-half-year-old Ruby trains here. You know, and just kind of enjoy life really. I mean, that's what it is. And I always feel that I mean, I've been very, very lucky. Very, very lucky in my life. And I think of the times that, you know, you could take a wrong turn and you didn't, you took the right turn. And who told you to take that right turn? I don't know, but I did. And so I've been just, you know, extremely fortunate.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

Sure. And how do we end today? What words do you wanna leave the listeners for?

Deb Mahoney: 

Oh, you could sing a song.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

Well, you could sing a song. This is your episode. If you wanna sing a song, I'll, by all means.

Deb Mahoney: 

Yeah. The incy, wincy spider...

Jeremy Lesniak: 

I'm not gonna come with any accompaniment though.

Deb Mahoney: 

I could do the incy wincy spider. I've done that enough. The wheels on the bus. The wheels on the bus is a big hit with all the grandkids. How do we end? I think we end, we're in the holiday season and it's a time when I think people can maybe take a few moments to step back and reflect. And I'd like anyone listening that does not train, which I'm not sure your audience probably most people are involved already in martial arts.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

Yeah. Just, but we actually, there's a decent demographic and I hear this via email, so maybe this is helpful, of folks who used to train.

Deb Mahoney: 

Ah. Ah, yes, yes. That is something that I think it's very interesting and that could be a whole session to talk about that. Because there's so many, they give you reasons why they stopped, and you can take those at face value, and most of them were, you know, time, rarely money. I mean, parents of children will say, well, I don't think we can afford it or whatever, but I'm thinking about adults or people who have left maybe in their teens and 20s and 30s or whatever. So it's usually time they change jobs and, you know, or they had children and now they're taking care of their children. So you look at that, and we've had a lot of people have said, I miss it so much. I wanna get back. And I'd say to them, do it. Just put your foot through that fricking door, walk in, no cost take, take the class rediscover why you loved it because it will happen, and take it from there. But it's just getting them back through the door to actually start training again. I mean, people say, I can't wait to get back. I had a woman just the other day and she said, I'm retiring in a year. I will be back. I can't wait. I will be back. I am retiring in a year. And I said, okay Mary, please, you know, please do because you loved it and you know how good it was for you. And I mean, people talk about stress really, all this stuff. And I don't throw that out there all the time cause everybody's stressed I guess. But it's so true that come back, come back and train. And if you've never trained, walk through that door, find a school, talk to people. I think that's a good way to get a sense of if the school might be a good fit. Talk to your friends. Because if they're your friends, you probably think alike a little bit, you know? So if you have friends that train, talk to them and say, you know, why do you like that school? And is it something you think I should do? And go as their buddy and you know, give it a go. Because we only have one go around as far as I know. I don't know. I've been kind of toying with reincarnation, but I'm not sure if that, anyway, that's another discussion. But we only have one chance at this. And I know, there's so many wonderful things to do in the world. I mean, as I said, I've loved, you know, skiing and riding and all kinds of things, but there's nothing like this. There's nothing like the martial arts period. End of story.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

I had a lot of fun with today's conversation, getting the chance to talk philosophy and ego and all these other deeper, and I think incredibly important conversations within the martial arts world really makes me happy. It's something that I enjoy doing and not every guest wants to go there, but Tashi Deb wanted to go there, so we went there and I had a blast doing it. Hope you enjoyed the conversation as well. Tashi Deb, thank you. I'll talk to you soon. I appreciate you. Listeners, viewers, head to whistlekickmartialartsradio.com. Check out all the stuff going on over there, photos, links, and all the good stuff. Now, if you have a martial arts school, in addition to joining the Patreon and being in the school owner's mastermind, we offer consulting. If you wanna take my skills that I've used to help grow whistlekick, to build our reach, to getting us access to the top martial artists in the world. If you want access to all that skill, but direct it in a way to help your martial arts school grow with integrity and with an eye towards cost, you know, we're not gonna burn your budget in the first two weeks, let me know. All you have to do is email me and we'll get started jeremy@whistlekick.com. If you don't wanna start that way, we have a page at whistlekick.com. Just go to the school owner's tab and you'll see a ton of information there on how we work. And we do have a few slots open right now that may change by the time you hear this episode. Who knows when you're listening to it? But if you're a school owner, you should be working with someone and I don't think there's anybody better than our team. So lemme know. I could also come out, we could teach seminars at your school, bring one of the matic teacher training programs to your school or your area. Lots of good stuff that we're doing, sharing, building our industry. Talk to me, let me know. Let's do it together. Again, my email's jeremy@whistlekick.com. Our social media's @whistlekick everywhere you can think of. Until next time, train hard, smile, and have a great day.