Episode 656 - Sensei David Hogsette
Sensei David Hogsette is a Martial Arts practitioner and instructor at the Shorin Ryu Karate Academy.
It just sort of dawned on me that I don’t know how to use my hand. And then there was the Ohio State Karate Club that had a class after the Taekwondo Club. So I watched that one. I really liked what they’re doing and I started training with them…
Sensei David Hogsette - Episode 656
Gaining inspiration from the Movies and TV Shows in his time, plus the different places he lived as a kid because of his parent’s work, Sensei David Hogsette found his way through Martial Arts. From Thai boxing to Taekwondo to Karate, Sensei Hogsette has trained in multiple disciplines throughout his storied martial arts journey.
David S. Hogsette, Ph.D. is the founder and head instructor at the Shorin Ryu Karate Academy, and he is Professor of English and Executive Director of the School of English Studies at Wenzhou-Kean University in Wenzhou, China.
In this episode, Sensei David Hogsette talks about his journey as a Martial Artist, teaching in China, and his book, Training Ronin Style.
Show Notes
We mentioned Iain Abernathy and Patrick McCarthy in this episode
To know more about Sensei David Hogsette, visit his website at shorinryukarate.club
Get Sensei David Hogsette’s book on Amazon
Show Transcript
You can read the transcript below.
Jeremy Lesniak:
What's happening everybody, welcome. This is whistlekick Martial Arts Radio Episode 656. And my guest today, Sensei David Hogsette. I am Jeremy Lesniak, I'm your host here for the show founder of whistlekick. And you know what, I love martial arts, traditional martial arts and all forms, I think they're just the best. And so that's why we've got all this stuff that we've got going on to support you, the traditional martial artists of the world. If that means something to you, if it resonates, if it clicks, whatever you want to describe it as, go to whistlekick.com. Find all the things that we've got happening, the websites and the projects and the writing and you name it, well, maybe not. Because there's always room for more, right? That's part of the martial arts philosophy. But there's a ton that we're doing. One of the things that we're doing, we've got a store, it's one of the ways that we fund all this stuff. If you use the code PODCAST15, you can save some money, and help us connect the dots that you know what when we do this, it leads to a sale. And that's a good thing for us as we figure out where to put our resources. Speaking of resources, we have a whole separate website for the show whistlekickmartialartsradio.com to episodes each and every week, all under the heading of connecting educating and entertaining you the traditional martial artists of the world.
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Alright, let's talk about the guest. So, Sensei David Hogsette came on, and we just started chatting, and he just kind of went and I look up at the clock and it's been like 45 minutes. And this is one of those episodes. If you really liked the organic style episodes where I don't ask a lot of questions. It just kind of runs away like two old friends chatting about martial arts. That's what this was. Those are my favorite style episode. So, I'm particularly partial this one. So, check it out. Enjoy it, learned something, have some fun, and I'll see you in the outro. Hello there.
David Hogsette:
How are you?
Jeremy Lesniak:
I'm well, thank you. Yourself?
David Hogsette:
Oh, hanging in there. It's been a long day. Yeah, I’m in China.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah. You're a whole bunch of hours ahead.
David Hogsette:
It's depending where are you?
Jeremy Lesniak:
I'm on the east coast of the US. I'm in Vermont.
David Hogsette:
Okay, yeah. So about before daylight savings goes away. It's 12 hours. 12-hour difference.
Jeremy Lesniak:
But yeah, thanks for doing this.
David Hogsette:
Absolutely. No. I appreciate the invitation. Jeremy, this is my first podcast.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Oh, nice. Nice. Well, I'll be gentle.
David Hogsette:
Because yeah, I met Andrew actually at Ian Abernathy seminar. Probably maybe two, not three years ago because of COVID. So, about three years ago. And I believe it was in, no it was in just outside of Philadelphia. So, because I've been to two Abernathy seminars. One was in Texas. And then the other one was in just outside of Philadelphia, and that's where I met. I met Andrew.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Well, yeah, we had a few people if I remember correctly that came on as a result of that. Meeting his attendance there. You know, it's fun when you think about you know, the whole six degrees of separation. notion when you take it into martial arts. I feel like it's not six it's to be three depending on where you are.
David Hogsette:
That's right.
Jeremy Lesniak:
But you get you get people, you know, someone like you who has been in direct contact with so many people, and it's so memorable and doing so that, you know, it makes it a lot easier to connect those dots if you want to play that game.
David Hogsette:
That's right. Yeah. And Ian is quite amazing, as I'm sure he is. He really is so supportive, and encouraging. Yeah, he's a good egg.
Jeremy Lesniak:
He's a wonderful, he's been on the show, he's a wonderful balance of doing his own thing. Giving other people tools to do their own thing. And yet not embracing the, I guess, the admiration or the ego, that could very easily accelerate. That's right. For others. You know, he's, I won't say I know him. You know, I've spoken with him. But I do not get the sense that he's a dramatically different person now than he was say 10 years ago. Yeah, in that respect.
David Hogsette:
I think that's right. That sounds right to me. I mean, I've only known him for I first encountered him 2004 Summer. And so, I've been active on his website, his forum and interacting with him through email and seminars. And yeah, he hasn't changed.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And that's good to know. Yeah, it was right.
David Hogsette:
Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. And he does not. I mean, he knows he's incredibly popular and well known. But he doesn't seem that doesn't seem to affect what he's doing. And he was right. And he encourages the little people, so to speak, right. I just really love how he's not intimidated at all, by other people doing similar things. And his kind of view is, well, if other people doing similar things, it'll we only help each other. It's not like competition is threatening to him. It's like, no, it just helps contribute to the broader understanding of practical, practical martial arts. And really, yeah, I appreciate that.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah. And I really echo that philosophy. You know, if you look at what we do as martial artists, how educational is it? If we're practicing in a backyard? Yeah, right. If we don't have other people to learn from practice with bounce ideas off. I think there's a real detriment. And not to say that, you know, you can't do some really amazing things solo. But at some point, you got to get some other people in there, right, at least for combative and defense. And I think he and I have similar philosophies in that, well, if you're doing something and you build on my work, and it's better, well, then that motivates me to find ways to be better still. And that's why, you know, that's a core philosophy here at whistlekick, you know, everything that we do, you know, if someone's going to extend it and add value to it, it just motivates us to find ways to continue to improve.
David Hogsette:
Exactly, right. Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Okay, cool. Honestly, they go better when we do this. We just kind of roll. So that's cool. Yeah. What was it in? You said ‘14 that you met him? What was it about? Him or that opportunity? Like, why? Why did you do that? Because, you know, it takes time. And you know, even if it's not ungodly, expensive, it still requires money. So, there was a reason there was some motivation there for you.
David Hogsette:
Yeah. Well, my I guess as with most people, me or my martial arts journey has been quite varied. And for the longest time, you know, I have always been in the traditional martial arts. And so, I was in as well. Get this kind of cliche when I was a kid in the late 70s, into the early 80s. You know, the whole fascination with Bruce Lee, and the David Carradine kung fu TV show. I was doing remembering that I even had the Kung Fu lunchbox, right?
Jeremy Lesniak:
I love it. I love it. Do you still have it?
David Hogsette:
No, I really, it would be worth so much now, right? But it was one of those things where, you know, my parents knew I was always watching the Kung Fu TV show. So, for I can't remember if it was for Christmas or birthday or something, you know, they got into the lunch, but that was back when lunch boxes, you know, were a thing that they had, you know, marketing lunch boxes anyway. I had to remember. It was great fun. And so, I was always interested in the martial arts. And so, when I was a kid, actually my dad worked with the government, US government, the Corps of Engineers, and we were in Saudi Arabia for a while, and at the recreation center in the compound where we did, there was a worker there who was from Thailand, and he was actually sort of teaching Thai boxing to kids. And so, I started with that, and I had seen some Bruce Lee movies, and they were, you know, older kids in the compound who were, you know, they were making their own that we call it nun chucks. Right, but the new Chuchu and they were learning different sort of techniques and ways to twirl the new Chuchu and almost like, you know, a baton or something, right. But anyway, was people were throwing site kicks and roundhouse kicks, and we didn't know what the hell we were doing, right.
So, I decided, you know, I need to learn something, some of this stuff. So, I started taking, you know, Thai boxing with this guy moved back to the states and later was in when height in high school and, you know, Taekwondo was the whole thing. So alright, so I started training in Taekwondo. And I remember I was in high school, and in Clarksville, Tennessee. And my mom found this little taekwondo school, Song Brown, I still remember the, the, the Teacher Song Brown, he was like, there was a Gold's Gym, and he had this little workout space above the gold's gym, and a few of us from high school went and train with him for a bit. And that really, you know, piqued my interest in, you know, continue to enthrall me in the, in these martial arts. But, you know, it was still very much God kind of competitions, type of martial arts. And, you know, I didn't know any different I thought this is this is what it is. So, I'm learning these forms, I'm learning these steps. And I'm just kind of learning it because, you know, some rounds. And this is where we had to do, right. And then we moved, and I went to, to Ohio, and we found another taekwondo place that taught the same forms. So, I continued training there. And then eventually went to Ohio State for university. And I decided, you know, with this Taekwondo, it's a lot of kicks, but I don't feel like I know how to use my hands so much. So, I was looking for a club to join there at Ohio State. And I remember going to the gym and I was watching a taekwondo club, and they were sort of doing some sparring and there were lots of kicks, and they got close to each other, and then they would push with their hands, they would push each other away and start kicking, like, why aren't you like punching them? Or why aren't you using your hands more or something?
So, it just sorts of dawned on me that I don't know how to use my hands and then there was a something called the Ohio State karate club that started that had a class after the taekwondo club so I watched that one and I really liked what they were doing they're using their hands and elbows and knees and other stuff and so I asked the insert you know, what is this and say, “Well, this is Matsubayashi-ryū, I've never heard of this before. So, I started training with them and I trained with them through my undergraduate work and I was with them for I guess what 10 years between undergraduate and graduate studies ended up getting my first degree at first through third degree black belt with this group and this is Matsubayashi very traditional, the whole I guess what's often called [00:14:38-00:14:42]. Doing the one step, two steps, the three step all this stuff, right, but you know that that's kind of what it was all about. And then I got my first teaching job in New York. I went there I found a Shōrin-ryū group. I was training with him for a bit. Had to take a break. Went into Shotakan for a while and learn about Shotakan got a first degree in Shotakan, and found another Matsubayashi club again and went train with him for a bit had had to stop out for had to drop out for other personal reasons and was out for a long time. And I kept thinking that I need to expand, explore, do other things.
So, I found a what was this thing? It was a Kempo group. Like I'm related to American Kempo. So, I trained with them. And it was fascinating, right? They had all these they called, you know, Kempo, and there was something else, but they're basically like ones, almost like one step sparring. So, I learned all these wild techniques. But there was something in the back of my mind that always kept saying, but will this you know, it's interesting in terms of martial arts. But can I use this in a self-defense situation? And I just kept even through when I was at Ohio State, I kept having this nagging question in the back of my mind. What's the relationship between these key home exercises, the one steps in three step sparring, and the Kumite and the Kata? Yeah, why? Why am I learning all these kata moves, but then I can't seem to use them in my sparring. And if I try to use these kata moves in my sparring, I get punched in the face. So, there's some there. There's this connects here. And I just couldn't quite draw those, you know, I couldn't connect the dots very well. I kept searching and searching but was also was interesting to me, which I kind of discovered later, was that I was searching. But I didn't quite understand. I didn't quite realize what my question was right, if that makes sense. I knew there was something lacking, I knew I was missing something. But I didn't know what the question was. To lead me to the answers to help me connect those dots.
I guess that's the best way I can explain that. I had the sense of I'm missing something. But I didn't quite know what the question was. And then I was just, you know, surfing around on the internet on YouTube. And to this day, I can't remember how I got to Ian Abernathy, YouTube video. But one day, I discovered Ian Abernathy. However, that was I don't really, I can't remember how that was, you know, and how that happened. But I'm while I'm watching a video of him talking about Bunkai application. And when I was at the Ohio State club, you know, we talked about loci we had bone chi. And, you know, some of it was practical, others less so but, you know, I understood what Bunkai was. And so, I'm watching this unlike suddenly, things started to click. And then I realized what the question that was kind of nagging me, but I didn't quite know what it was. And that question was, what is the practical application of these particular moves within the kata and why is it that these movements don't seem to work in long distance? Kumite context, right? Well, it's because it's not intended for that. You know, Kumite as I understood it and practice it was sports oriented. The kata was never intended to be for kind of sport, combat or, you know, consensual combat between martial artists. And also, there was close range. And once that all kind of clicked, I'm like, and there was another when he was talking in math, he was talking about the pulling hand because I always had that question to, you know, why's my hand at this hip here because my head's all open. You know? This doesn't make sense to me.
So anyway, I started watching his videos and things just started to click make so much sense that, alright, I realized, okay, there's a, there's so much more to the traditional cry the Matsubayashi that I had been studying that I had not been able to explore. And I wanted to explore that. And so, I started, I started to try to talk with the, the sensei at the Kempo, karate was, you know, training at us. And, you know, I think I need to go back to my roots here and explore some of the practical applications of Matsubayashi. And they and they understood and so, turned out I found the shore Shōrin-ryū Karate, international Long Island, New York, where I was headed by Jerry for Figgiani. And he had trained under Patrick McCarthy and a bunch of other folks. But anyway, he was doing much more practical applications of the kata, which is exactly what I was looking for. And so, I started training with him and his organization. And then that kind of opened up a whole bunch of things for me, and then connected within, on his website. He was giving seminars; it was coming to America. And so, there were two opportunities, one in one in Texas, one in outside of Philadelphia, I was able to go and train with him. And so that that just that has influenced what I've been doing since 2014. So significantly, and it's like, wow, I've got so much to explore, and so much to study now. So, it's really exciting.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Hmm, that's really cool. You know, say what you will about YouTube, but you know, that algorithm once in a while gives us some pretty amazing stuff.
David Hogsette:
It really does. And of course, it does, it can never replace. You know, in person. Partner training?
Jeremy Lesniak:
No, no, of course not.
David Hogsette:
But wow, can it really open up? Modes and inquiry ideas? It can, it can be it can really encourage people to explore things more deeply. It sort of gives them as my dad would say, like an inspirational kick in the pants. You know, it's kind of like, you can start to see what other people are doing and other parts of the world and realize, oh, I'm missing out on something I learned. Let me figure out how I can start participating in that.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Hmm. I liked the way you put it about knowing or feeling like there was a question. There were answers missing but you didn't know the question. Yeah. Because I think a lot of us have had that feeling this notion that something there's a piece missing and not that it's a large piece but it's a significant piece. You know, I often think about martial arts training like Trivial Pursuit you know, if you play Trivial Pursuit, you know, what is your piece look like? You've got all those different pies and of course, in martial arts, those pies aren't all the same width. But if you're running around the board, after having played for a while trained for a while, and you're missing one piece, you can't finish the game and that feeling of frustration of theirs. There's a piece of missing here.
David Hogsette:
Yeah, there was. Yeah, there was like an emptiness there was like, Alright, I'm getting really good at kata. but to what end? I'm getting really good at one step in three step sparring. But why but to an end? I'm fairly good now at you know, Kumite and, you know, I kind of discovered I didn't like the point the like the sports the point sparring, right, because it's like, well, there's certain techniques that I would do. I would absorb this and follow through but they called the cold appoint to stop now that this is too artificial. I don't like this. But I kept thinking alright, but how are these things related? I can't think what why? Why are we doing this kata for however many you know, minutes during the workout, okay, we're doing kata we're talking about body dynamics and snap and stances and pivoting hips and stuff. Okay. Almost like form for forms sake. And then we would shift do now it's time to do self-defense. Okay, so we're doing risk release and knife defenses and awesome. But how is that related to the Kata? What is this? It was one of those things where I always had that nagging question. But just based upon how a lot of traditional dojos are a range you, you're not necessarily encouraged to ask those questions until you kind of get into the black belt rings and you got special Black Belt classes and then you can kind of discuss things but even then, it was kind of like, well, no, no, the kata is just kind of like exercise and form and snap and body dynamics, and self-defense, we're going to work on things over here.
Okay, so I was just kind of led to believe that there was really wasn't much relationship between those kata and the self-defense. Yet at the same time, we were exploring Bunkai and there were a few moves from the kata where they would kind of relate it to self-defense. But then there was still other self-defense stuff, we would work on the head, it seemed to have nothing whatsoever to do with the kata, and I just always felt there's something missing there. But yeah, and so it wasn't until I started, you know, looking at Ian's material and, you know, when I first encountered him that he, you know, had DVDs is all buying DVDs, I was buying his books and all this stuff. And I started reading the reading and watching these videos like, “Oh my God, that's what I've been missing”. And so yeah, so I've been developing stuff, you know, since then, and now it just makes so much more sense. And it's sort of like one of those things where, on the one hand, I feel like man, it's almost like I've wasted so much time. And I don't say that, you know, maliciously at all. That's not my intent. But it's just it seemed like there for many years. Yeah, I was just training almost like for the sake of training just to get good at kata, but to what end.
But now I feel like okay, now I can see what how I can work on stuff. And related to you know, partner training that that the Kata is basically these how I understand that the Kata is like a summary of partner drills. And if you don't have a partner, the Kata is gives you an opportunity to train those moves without a partner. But it's never intended to replace partner training, right it is. And when COVID hit it suddenly that everyone who were kind of bashing, kata and solo training, saying this impractical, doesn't really help you in your transplant, but he writes something like, oh, we need we need solo training drills is called kata, right.
Jeremy Lesniak:
But the idea of this discussion, you know, the applicability, the relevance of forms, within the martial arts, it comes up on every martial arts show. And you know, we talk about it from time to time here, even though we have a little bit of selection bias, and that we are a traditional martial art show the majority of our guests, and our topics are rooted in principles that would not argue against foreigners, but we've still had guests on the show. You know, they're, they're not fans, and they don't teach them or they don't train them. But I think that you and I are very much on the same page in that that is a mistake. Yeah. Because if we were to make a list, let's even take the application out of it. Let's forget about Bunkai of Kata. For a moment, let's make a list of all the things that anybody would want to have. In terms of self-defense, well, you should be strong and have good cardiovascular conditioning, and good balance, and you should be able to deploy your techniques without having to think about them. And you should have flexibility and speed.
And if you practice your forms, in various ways, and with intensity and understanding, you build all of those things. So why not? Yeah, right. Like if, oh, I'm going to go over here and do this flexibility drill. I'm going to go over here and do the strength drill and I'm going to go over here and do this. Well, you couldn't do them all at once, maybe not. As well as those individual things. But you know, I can sit down and spend five minutes doing a couple forums with immense intensity and be exhausted. Right, right. And really get a lot of benefit from it. It's not separate at all. It all blends together. It's you know, you express the three cases of Karate, Kata, Kumite. And I think people look at those as having, you know, between them and I see it more as hyphens.
David Hogsette:
Yes. Well, the way they're they have been presented for so many years deck so many decades, they have been presented with hardcover. That's how, you know, I learned them, that they were separate things. And they didn't seem to be any relationship whatsoever. And if there were relationship, it was mainly the Kihon, would be an opportunity to isolate specific techniques in the kata, and you can drill them up and down the floor to perfect the form, and then allow you to perform them within the Kata. That would that was pretty much the extent of it. Right. So, in that sense, and then, you know, that high block, you could never pull off a high block and sparring you know, that didn't work, right?
Jeremy Lesniak:
Nobody's going to give you the attack and if they do, they're not going to last long, right?
David Hogsette:
And even if you tried, it's like, even if the jab, if you're doing the wind up and then hide, like I've been punched in the face at least twice before I can pull that over. So, you learn really quick that. Okay, that doesn't seem to apply to Kumite and in many ways it doesn't, because it's not intended to be right. Because that high block isn't necessarily a block, it could be a throat strike or a smash in the side of the head. I mean, it could be in so many other things. Right? And, but once that clicked for me when I realized that, okay, the way this has been constructed as “traditional karate”. It's actually not traditional. Its contemporary, it was a contemporary misunderstanding of what traditional was supposed to be. And I think that's incredibly ironic. And then the true traditional Karate was all about, as I understand it, from in from Jerry FigGiani, and from Patrick McCarthy, particularly with his translation, that it's actually civilian combat civilian self-defense, combat, right.
So, if that's the case, then we we've been artificially constructing something that we think is traditional, but it's really not. And the traditional stuff, the traditional karate, or traditional martial arts is actually more like MMA that, then people might want to think right. So, I just think it was almost as if my whole martial arts universe was turned upside down. But then I realized, no, it wasn't a turned upside down, it's actually turned upside, right. So then, so that I now understand what it was really intended to be. And then that this opened up all kinds of opportunities for study and exploration, and now the kata are so much richer. And I think I don't know if I'm going to be able to, to explore everything in this lifetime, given, given what I now understand and know about what these forms are, are about, and like, I wish I could do this. That's what he ended, right.
I mean, he was an electrician, and then he just, he's going to do this full time. Well, I can't do that, right. So, I don't know if I'm going to explore, but that's also kind of exciting. I know, I'll never I'll never exhaust the possibilities of the potentialities of this hobby, for lack of a better term. I don't like to use that word, because it kind of seems as though it's just entertainment. And it's much more than that, right? But it's kind of exciting to know that there will always be something more to learn. And that was always instilled in me and most traditional martial arts. I will say when you reach that, you know, black belt level, that actually means now you're ready to learn. Right now, everything you did, a lot of people think oh, you got to black belt, you're finished. No, that's actually the beginning is kind of like commencement. And you know, Graduation Commencement. We call it a commencement because that means beginning now, you can begin to do what it is you're supposed to do. Right?
Well, it's the same way when you achieve your black belt, it's kind of a convinced me and now you're ready to really learn. But it wasn't until I discovered this other approach to Bunkai and practical application that I felt like okay, now I'm actually learning stuff that I'm supposed to be because before it was just fine-tuning body dynamics. So, like, how does that help again, you know, I didn't feel like I was really progressing as a as a black belt. But now, I feel like, okay, this is what it means to be a black belt where I can actually make it my own, I can start to explore, learn, but also give back I can start to contribute to knowledge building and offering my own perspective, to the larger body of knowledge, if that makes sense.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Because when you look at this, let's say more nuanced current, sort of attitude towards martial arts towards your karate training. And you look back, you know, you talked about not upside down, but maybe right side up. Was, was there a point as the, in the midst of that era, if we can call it a transition? But let's do so just because I think it's probably a simpler word. In the midst of that, was their frustration or sorrow or I wish I know, were you kicking yourself? Are you mad at instructors? You know, was there anything like that that came? It sounds like if so, you would have worked past it. But I'm wondering about in those, that short period of time.
David Hogsette:
Actually, no. I felt a brief sense of grief and a sense of loss. But I also recognized that my own Instructure instructors, they were working with the best that they knew and understood in their context. Right, I felt it would be arrogant, and presumptuous of me to somehow blame them. Because I also recognize I got a solid foundation. They taught me very well what they knew. And then in the context of one thing, and I also recognize particularly was when I was at the Ohio State karate club, it was part of it was called the ASKA, the American Shōrin-ryū Karate Association. In many ways, I can look back now and see they were kind of they were in many ways on the cutting edge, because they were already thinking about Bunkai practical application, even though they were still very much steeped in the karate, traditional karate phenomena, because that's what we were handed, right. That's what we were given post World War II. What else could we have of that? Right?
And so, I felt it would be very unjust and unfair of me to somehow criticize them or be angry with them for giving me something that they didn't necessarily have themselves, right. But at the same time, I could look back and see and I can start to see, oh, wait a minute. My instructors were actually already trying to make those connections themselves, even within the 3k where these things are separated, but I can still go back and remember, oh, yeah, they looked at pin on Sunday. As a wrist release, they looked at the opening moves of Pina on Showtime, we called shut the showdown would call that hey, I need a hand. They were already. Oh, he's looking at that as a bear hug from behind. Release, right. This instructor taught that as a cross grabbed wrists released. This particular we looked at that move as a potential release of a chokehold. So, I could see glimpses of where they were kind of grasping in the dark, so to speak, where they were recognizing.
Now there are actually some practical applications of this. Right. And so, I ended up feeling indebted and actually had gratitude that they instilled within me a desire to try and figure out a practical application for some of these moves. Even if I didn't quite realize that's what I was grasping for, that's what I was searching for, they still kind of laid a bit of a foundation for that. And I'm still, even though I'm in a different organization, now, I'm still in touch with, you know, some of my senses from millennium, a few decades ago. And I can see, when I read kind of reconnected, they also have developed and grown and they've been very supportive of me, you know, liking certain videos that I put up, you know, and acknowledging that you know, that I'm working with Ian Abernathy and other folks in the sort of practical application circles. You know that because they, themselves have also, we're expanding and contributing in those different ways.
So, I know I've heard other people talk and I know some organizations are still very strident, in just keeping things the way they've always been. not acknowledging, you know, maybe ways in which they have not been as practical as it could be, or whatever, whatever. But I think I count myself very fortunate that I've been involved with organizations, even in the distance in the patentee, several decades ago, when I was first starting in traditional karate, where they were, they were starting to try and make those connections. And so, I actually felt quite fortunate. That I had that experience, even though I was still searching and wondering, what's the connection here, they were still, they were trying to make those connections as best they, they could at that point in. I don't know if any of them are going to listen or hear there's going to, you know, I hope I'm being, you know, fair and how I represent it, but I really do appreciate the foundations that they provide.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And you're not alone, you know, plenty of us, I would say the majority of us by numbers, had an experience, kind of like what you're talking about. And I'm not saying necessarily that we all came up who feeling like there was an unasked question that we needed to answer. You're not definitely not alone there. But I think we often forget, in the West, the majority of us started learning martial arts from people who trained for very, very little time, right? That's when our lineages go back to military service. Right? With, you know, a few years, right. And if your job isn't as an instructor, you know, think about it as I don't know the way the way Krav Maga is taught to the Israeli military, what is it six, a six-week program, you know, they're not going to give you everything. That's right. If you've got a year, two years, even four years, and this is all you have this person is leaving when they are done. You've got to give them the most you can the best you can and that's not everything. Right? And what tends to fall off in a simplified explanation or presentations detail.
David Hogsette:
Yeah, that's exactly right. And plus, what the service, the service personnel brought back was more sport, or, you know, children's karate. And, you know, where all the practical stuff was kind of stripped out, because they were teaching it to children and college students and weren't necessarily giving them the original sort of deadly aspects or, you know, the real combative aspects for it. And those service personnel didn't know that. And then so much is lost in translation. I mean, I've been very fortunate to be to be able to go to Oakland now with sensei FigGianni, and go to our Dojo on Okinawa, there and do some training. And it becomes very apparent to me how much is lost in translation. Right. And, you know, so you're calling things blocks are translating into blocks, when it's not necessarily, you know, it should have maybe been translated as received or, you know, these types of things where it gets because of the language issues. It gets entrenched. Oh, this is this is a block and then you start making everything into a block mobile. No, that's not what that was.
And then, you know, in our mind, lend us with Matsubayashi. You know, the masters that we were kind of working with, meaning some of his direct students, you know, they're saying, well, you know, because so many and Matsubayashi, take 90 minutes book, as you know, gospel, right? This is all you need, and you can't change anything, and you have to follow this. And his direct students, they are telling us, you know, he didn't put everything in there. This is just scratching the surface. And then Google would ask him about application is up, and he's like, yeah, now there are so many different applications, use your imagination use. And that's a very different, the Okinawan mindset is very different from, you know, mainland Japan, and very different from, you know, kind of a Western, a Western, oh, how shall I put this delicately? There are many folks, there are many folks in the West who kind of idealize that they're Western martial artists who will maybe idealize, or maybe too strong of a word. But idolize will over idolize figures in the east, and not realize that well, no, they're human also. And they're only giving a certain portion of it, and they're fallible as well.
But they will kind of idealize certain things and say, this is gospel and we can't do anything different when they never intended that. And it's like, wait a minute, you're cutting yourself off. you're limiting yourself by saying you must do it exactly like this picture in the book. Well, that's a snapshot of one moment of an entire movement. And he never, you know, not give me any never intended you to just do that only. And we're talking with his direct students who say, no, no, use your imagination, develop your own applications, you make this your own. I'm like, thank you. But can you can you tell more people that because we're busting our balls here about you know, you're changing the styling? No, I'm not. I'm trying to explore it enhance it in developing growing? Yeah, and you.
Jeremy Lesniak:
We've had a couple people come on the show and talk about martial arts with an analogy of language, that, you know, the Keihan the basics. Maybe words or sentences, and a form might be a poem. And, and I was reminded of that, when you said, Imagination, use your imagination if I was an English teacher, and I was trying to teach people language, right? Like I might take sentences, we might break them down. Depending on the level of the class, we might review forms as poetry, right? Like, like, there's a lot of ways that you can, you can draw some analogues there. And when you mentioned imagination, that really reminded me of that. And I think that's an important piece to remember. Because otherwise, the only books I could ever write would be books I've read. And how boring does that get? The only thing I would never actually create anything. And for me, when I break down the concept of martial arts, right, that the noun in there is art, there is a creative element to art. And if there isn't, well, then my personal view, not that my definition is better than anyone else's. But in my personal view, if you don't have the opportunity to inject some creativity, you're missing out.
David Hogsette:
You're absolutely right. And it's funny, you should make that connection. I'm actually an English professor here. Oh, cool. And I often you're, in my own mind, I think of Kata as poems, and was interesting in sort of theories of literary interpretation. There's a particularly in more contemporary theories, there's something called the intentional fallacy, where they talk about oh, it's an error to try and determine what the author originally intended in this poem, or story or novel, because you can never really verify with them, either they're dead or if they're still alive. They're not going to necessarily try and confirm your interpretation. They'll just say, well, it's up to you figure it out. Well, as much as that's true, we still can't deny that authors had intentions. Whenever they decided to write something. And we have enough information, in my view, we have enough information from the texts, and other texts that those particular writers may have written, and then historical and sociological and other types of things, we can get sufficient knowledge of what we think they were intending to say, we might not know. Absolutely, but we can have sufficient understanding, right.
And so, I take that same perspective to content. Yeah, so that we don't know other than, you know, [00:50:46-00:50:48] and, and so on, we but generally speaking, we can't confirm with the original creators of these kata and what they were intending. But we can study the movements and study the forms and study other writings and come up with some sufficient knowledge and understanding of what they are intending. Number one, but in interpretive theory, we have what's called meaning, which is, this is what the author intended, to the best of our understanding. But then there's also significance, how do we apply that text to our lives and our context? Well, we can do the same thing with content, we can try and figure out, Okay, here's this, you know, high block step, punch, pivot low block, we can try and figure out what the original designer of this content might have been intending. And that would be meaning of the counter. But we can also explore its significance. How can we apply that to our contemporary context? How might we use that same movement within our understanding today of legal requirements? And what are the what my magic McCarthy talks about habitual acts of violence? What are the habitual acts of violence that we commonly see today?
And how are, you know, criminals dressing today, and what types of clothes so we can then apply those movements to our context. And so, for me, that kind of opens up the kata to this amazing richness where we can try and figure out originally, maybe this is what the creator of this kata was intending. But we can also then explore a bunch of other possibilities, where that where we can bring in these other martial arts. Ooh, I'm noticing this jiujitsu move that looks a lot like this move in my kata, I can maybe make that work. You know, in this particular move our there's a judo throw in that pivot into a low block looks a lot like that Judo throw, so maybe. So that's what I like to do with the content and use your imagination and sort of break out of that. stilted confining, you must do it exactly like Nagamine is picturing in his book, like, well, if you look at how he and his son unless the Kata change over time with you know, so you, they get can change with you as well. You're not changing the kata; you're just exploring different possibilities of how to apply that.
Jeremy Lesniak:
We're, we're on the same page. I want to take a hard left, because we got some other stuff. I want to make sure that we talk about and the first thing is, you know, we mentioned at the top that you're not in the US you're in China and then you mentioned your English professor, is that why you're there? Are those dots connected?
David Hogsette:
Yes, and so what my wife is a Chinese national and we've been married for about 11 years now. And she's been out of her country for a long time. And so, we decided it was time to try and get back to her country be closer to her side of the family and so on. And so, I was able to get a position at Sino-American University where I direct the School of English Studies at window Kean University, in China, which is kind of the Southern just near Taiwan. And so that's kind of the motivation there and so yes, I'm an English professor here in China.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Okay, and what was that that transition like for you and your martial arts training that's kind of big and, you know, let's face it, you're a karate guy, and now in China, and while I'm sure there's plenty of karate, I'm going to guess that it's a smaller percentage than Chinese martial arts.
David Hogsette:
Right? It is actually quite fascinating because, well, I've we've been here only about a month and a half. So, it's a recent move. And there isn't there actually on campus there, there is not a traditional karate organization or club target, there's taekwondo. Taekwondo is everywhere. That they've done a great job of marketing and design. And so, there's Taekwondo, there's some, like a Chinese kind of wrestling type of group on campus. And, you know, there's Tai Chi and so on. But it's the martial arts in China now is actually quite interesting, because post a cultural revolution, the martial arts in China changed from a kind of a self-defense company, oh, civil combat type of thing to exercise and personal development. And that, largely, my understanding had to do with kind of the communist government trying to, you know, keep the civilian population from having, you know, military and combative potential, I'd like just let me know, they took their guns away, and so on, right.
So, they change the martial arts into something that's more about exercise, and good health and so on. And so that's often what you see now, there are pockets of individuals here, who still retain the knowledge of how to apply things. And what I'm sensing or seeing as we're seeing more of that now, right, where people are starting to talk a little bit more about, yep, Tai Chi is this exercise in breathing and energy but there's also all kinds of applications. So, we're starting to see that. The other thing that I find fascinating is you know, karate, of course comes from, you know, Okinawan. Indigenous Okinawan and martial arts, but heavily influenced by Chinese martial arts. Because with the Ryukyu, Kingdom before Japan took over, you know, the Ryukyu Kingdom, there was a close connection between Okinawa and China, particularly the, you know, Fujian was that, right? The White Crane, that sort of that, like the southern parts of China closer, you know, closer to Okinawa.
So, you have this cultural exchange between the Chinese martial arts and the Okinawa and martial arts. And so, I'm actually getting a kick out of exploring some of those connections and trying to talk to people and say, oh, look, we there's this, you know, Sanchin kata, and that looks a lot like that kata you're doing there, or there are these moves in that particular form that look a lot like this move in this particular context. And so, I'm really interested in trying to explore some of those connections, looking at some of the historical roots, the Chinese historical roots of how that influenced the Okinawan karate. Really cool.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And are my notes right, you wrote a book?
David Hogsette:
Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
So, there's another hard left. But let's face it, I think I asked you something about a lunchbox. And then 45 minutes later, we pivoted. So, we're not. We're not going to get through everything. I love these sorts of conversations, the ones where it just flows, it just runs away from us, because it tells me that there's a lot there. And it gets my wheels turning. And I'm assuming it gets the audience's wheels turning, hopefully yours as well. But I want to make sure that if you wrote a book that we talk about your book, because people might want to pick up.
David Hogsette:
Thank you. Yeah, so it's called Training Ronin Style: Principles, Tips and Strategies for Practical Martial Arts Solo Practice. So, I had had this idea for this book for many years, largely because what I started to feel this sense of disconnect, and I couldn't quite figure out where I belong and how can I train. I was doing a lot of training on my own. And so, I felt very much like a ronin, right? Just this warrior without a home and but still having a sense of a warrior spirit in a in a warrior framework and, but I just didn't know where I belonged. And so, I just started exploring things on my own, I thought maybe I can write a book about this. And so, I had some notes and this and that, where I was writing some ideas in here and there. And then, you know, COVID hits, and people are locked down dojos, and gyms are closed. And suddenly, I realized, and this is also an encouragement from Ian Abernathy. And one of his videos and podcasts he was talking about, yeah, this time is really challenging. And we can't train with partners, and a lot of people are losing their jobs, or at least being laid off into these horrible things economically, but we should try and how can we reframe this time, and reclaim this time and try and explore and do things that we didn't have time to do before? Like, I can write that book.
And it was, and then I thought, it's perfect, because people are clamoring for, and I had a conversation with and also with my sensei FigGianni, and they were both like that we need a book like that, right? And people need this type of guidance. It's one thing to tell people, yeah, train on your own. But most people aren't used to that. And they know, they need some kind of structure, they need ideas, they need recommendations on what to do and how to do it. And so, boom, alright, so I cranked out this book, and I wrote up, you know, several chapters on it. And I, you know, my wife took pictures of me illustrating different things, and I was able to put it together and get it published. And, yeah, so it came out, it's actually fairly well received, I've got some good responses from it, particularly, you know, during lockdown. You know, people have been picking it up and using it. But also, I frame it in such a way that even if you're, you're like, in the introduction of the book, I talked about different reasons for why we would need to do solo training.
And it's not just, you know, if you're on lockdown, even if you're in a very vibrant kind of dojo, or, you know, martial arts school, you should be training on your own, you shouldn't just be going to the class, listening to the instructor or Sensei and doing what they say, and then going home and you, you still need to follow up and do homework and do your own training. And so, I talked about that, or, or sometimes people find themselves in a context where, all right, they really, they've established like, a nice social environment for themselves. They love the people they're training with, but maybe they're not exploring everything that they would like, well, your solo training can be an opportunity for you to explore those other aspects of the martial arts that maybe you can't do in your partner training or in your, in your dojo or in your, your formal classes. So, you know, that can be a supplement to you to your other training. So yeah, there are many different ways in which this book can be used to help supplement your partner journey, but I make it very clear that you know.
So, training is never intended to replace partner for you. In terms of practical martial arts and applying your techniques, you have to do partner training with varying degrees of compliance, right from, you know, very compliant up to non-compliant. Training, right. You can't skip that. But there's definitely a significant place for solo training for every martial artist. And that's what the book, the book addresses, but with an eye towards practical application, how can we take these different techniques from your forms from your kata that you would normally practice with a training partner? How can you supplement that partner training with different types of solo training? So, you can still get that kind of practice and so that's what the books about.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Nice, where would people find it?
David Hogsette:
You can go to Amazon. They there's both a Kindle version and also a [01:05:00-01:05:01] version. And there's and you can get views. It’s all over. North America, Europe, Japan, Australia.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Cool. Is there a link from your website?
David Hogsette:
Yes, there's definitely. Yeah. On the...
Jeremy Lesniak:
We want to make it easy for everyone.
David Hogsette:
That's right.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Let's make it easy. Cool. Cool. So, let's do that now. Website, social media, email like any of that stuff you want to share with people. Let's make sure they had all that.
David Hogsette:
Sure. So, my main website is shorinryukarate.club. So, showing your karate club, and then that one. There are all kinds of information there and including on the margin there. There's a link to the book.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Awesome. Well, keep going.
David Hogsette:
Yeah, on YouTube, I've got like a bunch of videos where I kind of illustrate some of these. You can find those videos on the website, on under the videos tab, or you can go to YouTube, and look up, David Hogsette. I've got my YouTube channel there where you can subscribe to the YouTube channel and see bunch of videos. Without and my previous college, I was teaching a PE class and so I've got some videos on teaching, you know, practical applications of some Kata. I've also got a bunch of solo training videos that people can look at. Now that I'm in China, finally, there's a martial arts room in the gym on campus. I'm starting to create some videos on some new, new solo training I'm doing and I'm hoping to start a club here. Maybe next semester, but I'm still trying to get acclimated to living in China and so on. But yeah, so I'm doing that there's like a talent show coming up here soon. So, there's another professor here who does martial arts. So, we're going to do a little demonstration or bring your practical application, some moves from [01:07:23-01:07:25]. And I'm hoping that that will maybe spark some interest and maybe I can get some students together and we can start a club, maybe next semester or something.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I hope that works out.
David Hogsette:
Thank you. Nice.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Well, we've been all over the place today, we really, we've traveled a bit literally, figuratively, literally, literally traveled. But we've traveled through subjects. And I would imagine that anybody who's listening is finding quite a bit of themselves in your journey, because your journey has spanned quite a few different aspects and thought processes and everything. So, what do you want to say to them? You know, we're wrapping up here, this is your chance to descend them off into the world with you know, your final words, let's say by the book. Yeah, you know, then those would be your final words. But, you know, what do you want to say?
David Hogsette:
Yeah, well, what I would say, in embrace where you are in your current journey in the martial arts. I would also say try not to be too hard on yourself. It's really easy. Sometimes I think to beat ourselves up about, “Oh, I haven't done enough or I've explored it”. Or just recognize the martial arts is so vast, there's so much to learn. Just take it in in little bits and explore it. It's kind of like, I would rather swim in a deep ocean then skip along shallow puddles, right. And so, in order to do that, you take time, and don't worry, if you're not, sometimes you feel like you're not doing enough. You're not exploring enough. Just take it a little bit. If you're new to kind of the practical application of things, just start with one form one kata, just start exploring, start tinkering and just kind of do it. And I guess another encouragement was, would be don't fear change, don't fear stepping out or I guess don't fear closing a door because I really believe that whenever you close the door, there's always another one is open. And that and that was something that I struggled with, you know, it took me a while to say, yeah, I've got to go back to my roots, or I've got to, you know, it was great though explored certain things, but I've got to close this chapter and start a new chapter, I've got to take that next step and explore certain things. So, a lot of times, we can close ourselves off to exploring new things and making connections.
So, I would just encourage people to, you know, don't be afraid to open to close certain doors. And not to feel like that's been a waste, I don't think anything is ever really a waste, there's always some kernel of truth, or some foundation that's been laid that you can always build upon. And that's been important for me is recognizing that, yep. Okay, so I haven't been doing practical things for very long, but there's a solid foundation that I can build on. And it's never too late to try and explore that. And if you're in a situation where you're just not getting what you think and feel you really want, make a change, you know, that's on you, making you make a change. And don't be afraid of making that change. Because it's, you get out of the martial arts, whatever you put into it. And so, you really have to make those concerted efforts to invest in it.
And to keep growing, keep exploring, and I see a lot of people who tend to get either bogged down or boxed into organizations, or what or what they think of as though this is what traditional, you know. What we think of is traditional, is what we've constructed now as our own idea of what is quote unquote, traditional martial arts. And I think a lot of times we get it wrong. This is, I'd be like, when you really look back in history and see, there's cross training, and, you know, people visiting other masters, and they weren't worried about patches and organizations and styles. And that's, that's too limiting. You know, just open one's mind and learn as much as possible. Take what works for you. And, you know, ignore what doesn't and don't feel bad if you're not like this person and work on what you're where you are at this moment. And do your thing.
Jeremy Lesniak:
David's certainly not the only one that spent time trying to find the question that he knew he needed answers to. I think a lot of us have that experience. Maybe it's in martial arts, maybe it's in some other aspect of life. But the thing that I really like about his story, at least as it relates to that element, is that he was willing to keep an open mind and look, until finally he found something that put him on the path to the answer. I think all too often, again, could be martial arts or something else. We closed the door. I looked; I can't find it fine. I'm going to move on. Honestly, that's the genesis of whistlekick, I was looking for something that didn't exist. And I looked and I looked and I looked and I looked, instead of giving up I said fine, I'm going to provide the answer for myself. And if you're listening, of course, you also find some value in that provision. So, David, thanks for coming on. Had a great chat. Hope we do it again. And I appreciate you telling your story.
Hopefull,y you're still listening audience, I want you to go check out the show notes for this episode. We got a bunch of photos over there, I want you to check out David's book, super cool stuff that he's doing. And I want you to check out whistlekick.com and see if there's a way that works for you for supporting us whether it's the Patreon, whether it's making a purchase with the code PODCAST15. Whether it's just sharing this episode with someone else that'll take you seconds find what we're doing. Engage, enjoy, don't forget we've got a Facebook group whistlekick Martial Arts Radio Behind the Scenes to go deeper on this episode or the other episodes or anything you know, some good conversation about stuff over there. So, check it out. Looking for some training programs? Don't forget we've got programs that started free like our FLEX program that will extend and empower you as a martial artist. You can find those at whistlekickprograms.com or you know actually whistlekick.com too. We put this stuff all over the place to make it easy for you to check it out. You have guest suggestions let me know Jeremy@whistlekick.com or social media, @whistlekick. Until next time, train hard, smile and have a great day.