Episode 616 - Mr. Francis Cordon
Mr. Francis Cordon is a Martial Arts practitioner and the host of A Thousand Exits Podcast.
If you're ever going somewhere, make sure you're running towards something. As a Martial Artist, you have to have ownership of your journey...
Mr. Francis Cordon- Episode 616
Mr. Francis Cordon’s goal is to foster unity in the Martial Arts community. For Martial Artists to stop 'infighting' and share and collaborate and be happy to be Martial Artists, regardless of style and school. To stop feeling entitled to criticize and realize we can help each other and help each other live more fulfilling lives. In this episode, Mr. Francis Cordon tells us his journey to the Martial Arts and his passion for ALL Martial Arts
Show Notes
In this episode, we mentioned Bruce Lee.
You can subscribe to Mr. Francis Cordon’s YouTube Channel here and listen to A Thousand Exits Podcast.
Show Transcript
You can read the transcript below.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Welcome, you are listening to whistlekick Martial Arts Radio, Episode 616. With today's guest, Mr. Francis Cordon. I'm Jeremy Lesniak, I'm your host for the show founder of whistlekick, where everything we do is in support of the traditional martial arts. What does that mean? Well, go to whistlekick.com, you can see what it means all the stuff that we do. One of the things that we do is we sell some stuff, that's part of how we pay for all this. And if you use the code PODCAST15, it lets us know that you listen to the show, and that leads to buy in some stuff, and you save 15% of the process. If you want to go deeper on this, or any episode of the show, go to whistlekickmartialartsradio.com, you're going to find every single episode we've ever done, we give you to each week. And it's all under the goal of connecting, educating and entertaining you the traditional martial artists of the world. And if you want to help us, well, you got a lot of ways you can do that. You could buy something, like I said, but you could also share an episode, maybe follow us on social media, you could tell a friend about maybe pick up one of our books on Amazon, we're adding more all the time, you could leave a review somewhere Google, Apple podcasts, you know, whatever makes sense. Or you could support our Patreon, patreon.com/whistlekick. You're going to go for that. And you can support us with as little as $2 a month, and $5 and up you get access to exclusive content. Like earlier today, I recorded the exclusive podcast episode $5 tier, you get a bonus episode, you go up, we go up, we give you more. Check it out. patreon.com/whistlekick. You know, over the years of this show and a whistlekick in general, we've connected with a lot of people, a lot of martial artists. But I have to say the way that today's guests connected with us was a first different than anything I'd ever seen. And it led to us talking. And now we're here. It was a while ago, a few months ago that I saw an email from someone saying, “Hey, I liked your show”. And I did kind of a follow up on my YouTube channel. I hope that's okay. And if you have feedback, let me know. I checked it out. And it was Mr. Cordon, building on an episode that Andrew and I had done. And not only did he do so in a very kind way. But he added to it in a really awesome way. And I really dug it. And that kicked off a conversation that has led to me appearing on his podcast or his channel, I guess is a better way to say it. And now here he is. And it's a great conversation. He's a great guy. And I've got a feeling that this won't be the last time you hear from him on something to do with whistlekick. So, here's my conversation with Mr. Francis Cordon. Francis, welcome to whistlekick Martial Arts Radio.
Francis Cordon:
Jeremy, thank you so much for having me. I am a big fan of your work. And I couldn't be happier to be here.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Well, I'm honored. I'm honored that you're a fan. And, you know, this is our second time getting to talk. And we were doing the opposite of what we did last time. Last time, our first time really talking. I was on your show.
Francis Cordon:
And you were and now, you're on. Thank you so much.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I love when we get to do that, I love when we get to, you know, flip the table. So, to speak, you know, you got to learn about me. And today we're going to learn about you.
Francis Cordon:
Yes, and when you're on my show, it was tremendous for me. Helped me a lot, I got a lot of feedback on that. I still can't believe it. Like I'm going to wake up and say, wait a minute, to contact Jeremy and ask him because that never having “Thank you”.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I'll say this. And then we're going to turn this back. We're going to make this more about you. We've been doing this for years. And so, because we've been doing it for years, people look to us, and they're like, “Oh, you know, you've got this big show” or they complement us or they seem really nice things. And I'm just a guy who started doing this and did not stop. And I think there's something very synergistic there with martial arts. You don't have to show up with a lot of talent, or any skill or even, you know, the ability to use your body, you just keep showing up and eventually things happen. And this podcast is a perfect testament to that philosophy.
Francis Cordon:
That's wonderful. In fact, I hope later in our conversation, in what regards to the practice, this topic comes up because it's one of those that I really am trying to really spread that message. You know, people go through moments of hardship and doubts and stuff and the only thing you need to do is keep going. There's no magical skill. There's no... All you have to do is not to give up and keep going. And so, in practice, this is a reality, and you can see it at work. So, that's what you've done with your practice. But also with your podcast, and it shows there you are 600 episodes inspiring.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Thank you. Now it's, of course easy to look at things in that way in hindsight, and feel good about it and trusted. “Oh, yeah, I just kept going”. But being on the other side, or being in the middle of it and saying, you know, “do I keep going?” “Am I on the right path?” You know, that's a frustrating, a scary part, you've been training long enough that I'm sure you felt that at certain times, I am on the right path? How do you reconcile that? How do you in the middle of something that is a struggle, say to yourself, or motivate yourself? Or whatever you do? How do you keep going?
Francis Cordon:
Yeah, that's a wonderful question. And I do have sort of a methodology that I have, I guess, device that works for me, and not sure that it will become a technique for everyone to use, but I can share certainly what I do. And this is applicable, obviously for the martial arts on the journey. But also, to be honest, he happens everyday people are thinking, I'm having a hard time at work, do I look for another job or keep going right? This happens in relationships, this happens all over the place, right? My take on this is don't run away from anywhere. If you ever go somewhere, make sure you're running towards something. As a martial artist, you have to have ownership of your journey. It's not your Sensei, it's not your CFO, it's not your school, you have to own it to you are working on yourself, the subject of what you're doing in martial arts is you is that development and growth. And so occasionally, or sometimes, we go through hard times, right? Now, if you are just in the void of that darkness, so to speak, that the days in which you feel you haven't made any progress or anything like that, that's not a good time to make an emotional decision, and quit instead of looking for something else. That is a good indicator. That is, it's, you have to stick through it. I remember being in previous jobs in which, you know, when we had the hardest times in the company, is when I know for a fact I'm not going anywhere, because those will be the times that I remember as the highest growth. But there is a time in which that has passed, you're feeling pretty good. And maybe the awareness comes that as an individual martial artist, you need something else from a growth standpoint. And that can happen in many ways. There may be time to find another angle, and other style of teaching, or maybe just a compliment, we can talk about that later. But that feeling of running towards something that through practice develops in your heart, the desire to compliment yourself is more reliable than, gosh, this is hard, I'm going to run away from right, because eventually is going to happen again, there's no growth without that feeling of hardness, right, it's necessary to go through that hardship.
Jeremy Lesniak:
There's something really poignant in the simplicity of that running to versus running away from. And there may be some people listening and they're saying, “Well, you know, you could easily run to the wrong thing”. But I would guess if you in that situation, let's say, you know, there's some temporary problem or, you know, you're just you're not willing to grind it out, you know, something that would obviously be temporary. I bet if you were really unpacking the reasons that someone may run to something else. It's not that they are running to something else. They're running from something and trying to justify it. Yeah. With the running to. So, what is the true motivation in the action? I think that's the critical point to evaluate.
Francis Cordon:
Yeah, exactly. I guess the trick is, you know, if you're going through one of those really dark and difficult times, then it's better to not even consider it because it's hard that you will have the clarity, the emotional clarity to know that you're not running away from but tour towards right. But not because it's good or bad. The other thing I want to do here, Jeremy, nobody should feel guilty. This is not about making people feel that this is about the highest levels of growth. So, the other thing I like to say, when you know when friends that know my passion for the art and ask me questions, you know, what's right in my journey. Don't imagine that there is some sort of cosmic baseline. And our job is to determine what is right. And there's every other possibility is wrong. The truth is, all paths are right as long as we keep going and take them as lessons, because we'll keep making adjustments. So, I think is very liberating to think as a journey of growth, because we don't have to worry whether we have found that one true path is not about that. I think whether you're right or left, you keep learning, and you keep going. And the only secret as we said at the beginning of this is continue. And you keep growing.
Jeremy Lesniak:
One of the most common philosophies, I've heard among, we can call it, you know, New Age metaphysical sorts is, you are where you are supposed to be. And derivatives of that sentiment, this idea that what you're experiencing, what you're going through, is what you need, you've made these choices, they've led you to this place, and you've got to work through the thing in front of you. And sometimes that is remaining in it, sometimes it's determining that you've got to get out of it. That is the best choice to run to something else that is more appropriate once you've determined that. And I think that's really a fascinating aspect, within the martial arts, that so many people bypass because of what you just said about trying to determine what's right. You know, they're trying to find this correct or best. You're not even here looking at me. We're not doing this video, but I'm still using air quotes. This idea that there is a best, a universal best that can be applied. Yes. And how does that incorporate in the conversation?
Francis Cordon:
It's absolutely what happens all the time. And we're talking about journey decisions. So, the topic of best is very clear. But think about the internet today. How many 1000s of times per day, maybe millions, people are asking, what is the best martial art? What is the best for this for that? There we have in life, this mentality of what is best. And the truth is, the journey is something you need to own. It's also sometimes a little lonely, nobody's going to tell you, you know, nobody's going to tell you micromanage your journey, you have to own it and show your desire to grow, and keep growing. And some people are made to learn from one or two sources, and they enjoy this aspect of going deeper and deeper. Other people are really good at having many sources and incorporating them into a system that makes sense. But we're not trying to be a collective, we're not trying to build a machine from parts that don't match. It has to be something that applies to yourself and applies to something that you can use and you can and aligns with your goals. Right. So, whether you're considering what's your best martial art, or if you're doing something, what's the best decision you can make? Now, I think it's liberating to think that, you know, as long as you keep showing up, you know, I'll give you an example. So, the listeners hopefully can understand. I have a day job in the IT industry. And I present to customers, I do presentations, right. And honestly, sometimes they're horrible. You show up and you have a bad day, right. And two years later, someone who was on that call with you calls you for a new job, because he has great memories of you. And you're like, wait a minute, man, that was a horrible call. I did horrible. So yeah, I'm not calling you because you had a bad day, I'm calling you because you were there. You kept showing up to the day. I could count on you. We all go through ups and downs; we're not looking for perfection. We're looking for reliability, we're looking for who up there? Will you keep showing up for the day and try your best? And don't let it bother you that sometimes it's good or bad. The other thing Jeremy, you know, when you have students, and they think that they didn't make progress, and they didn't learn? How do you know enough to know that they weren't as productive of others, just as the feeling you have of today, I didn't do well in class? May be that day was one of the best for your martial arts learning because learning martial arts is insane. So, that's the message in a nutshell.
Jeremy Lesniak:
As you were talking, I'm thinking about schools that I've been part of the school that I had. And when I think about the students who ultimately have, let's say, succeeded, you know, however you want to define succeeded, they earned a certain rank or they were there for length of time, develop a certain amount of skill, whatever it is, I can't think of a single one. That in their early days, I looked at them and said that person is the person who's going to be the best in this, you know, current crop of students who's come in, it's always someone kind of just, they're right, they show up. They're not the best, they're not the worst. And they just plug along. And I'm using the word just in a way that implies that it's simple, you know, showing up to class time and time and time again, is it's simple, but it's not easy. You know, there are plenty of things that can distract us. Exactly. But it's almost like we have this secret recipe for success in anything and people just don't want to acknowledge.
Francis Cordon:
Yeah, exactly. Sometimes it gets tough. And sometimes people go through hard times. And you know what? It's okay to take a break. The other thing we're not saying here is that people have to be superheroes. If you feel very tempted to make a dramatic decision, it's better to maybe just take a break. Sometimes, you know, have you noticed, the way humans the way people are way harsher to themselves than they would be to a friend that comes for them for advice, if someone comes to you for advice, you'll be very gentle. And you try to take a step back and help them see the balance of things and prevent, maybe help them not make a dramatic decision that they'll regret. But when we talk to ourselves in that inner dialogue, we can be brutal, we can be very harsh. And so, look, if it's hard, if it's time to make a decision, why not take a break, because we put so much on our shoulders. So average martial artist, has a full-time job, family, and then they deal with the martial arts and the fact that maybe progress doesn't happen as quick as they thought when they saw the movie, The Big Boss. And so, you know what I mean? A part of it is adapting to the difference between what it is to progress, an art versus what you imagined, and finding the joy in the daily of that and life has a lot and we have people these days work more than ever and with the working from home when the pandemic people have no, there's no time to work is 24 hours a day, right and can be online all the time. So be easy on yourself, I think people have to learn to treat themselves like you would treat a friend in need.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I agree. And then to extend that analogy, we're even more kind to strangers. Generally, if a stranger asks you for advice, you're going to give really good advice or be very kind insensitive. If a family member or friend comes to you, you may be a little rough on them. Yes. And then, of course, as you said yourself, you we are we are the cruelest to ourselves, which is so strange that familiarity breeds contempt or resentment.
Francis Cordon:
Exactly. And that's a very good point. Sometimes you are the most impatient to the people we love. And, you know, it's a shame because the meaning of those relationships is there's been partners all along through life and going through ups and downs, right. But even this aspect you just mentioned, think about training, I can think of hundreds, if not 1000s of instances of trying to do something my teacher in martial arts is showing me right. And I can't quite do it. And I do it and I do it. I get frustrated. So, I can't do it. Why can't I do it? In his words have very simple look, instead of analyzing and all that just keep doing it. It takes time. You thought it was going to take one week, and maybe it'll take three years. You know, don't worry, it takes time. It takes time. One day, you look back. And it turns out that thing you consider is so difficult. It's not only something you do easily, it's become a strength. That's another beautiful thing that the martial arts. Jeremy felt for me that he knew when I didn't even dream off, that the weaknesses become strengths, but he's not. Through analyzing them. It's just through doing them and being patient and letting them feel let the universe work. Its magic to just practice. And one day you look back and say, “Wow, I didn't even realize when that happened”. I can't even point the finger when this happened. You know, and that makes everything worse. It's beautiful.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Absolutely. How'd you get started?
Francis Cordon:
Well, Jeremy, oh, many. Yeah. Oh, well, okay. So, there's a couple of situations in my life that I guess happened. Not at the same time, but roughly for the same stage. I was very young. I was born in Spain, even though I live in the states now. But I grew up in Madrid. And my father was a very traditional man. And he loved martial arts. We lived in a time in, we didn't have a lot of media, we didn't have a lot of globalization because Spain was closed to external influence, because of a dictatorship we had back then. And we didn't really have a lot of influences, but one thing my father knew about was Bruce Lee. That's the one thing we had that have come from the outside. It's an incredible thing that if you think about how many barriers that has eliminated that other external, you know, I guess social phenomenon did not. So, my father planted that seed of love of the martial arts. And for a while I was just reading about it and fascinated with it, but not really training. And then the time came that I was a little older, not quite a teenager, but almost there. And neighborhood started getting a little rougher because the dictatorship had ended. And, you know, countries go through a transformation period. And it's rough, Spain is a pretty safe place now. But I went through a very difficult time in which the country was trying to adapt to democracy, we didn't know that was. And so, there was, you know, drugs on the street and crime for the first time in many years. And so, it was hard. And I started honestly, having, you know, rough times when I was walking down the street a little later than normal, I would find groups of kids with knives, or sometimes kids do syringes with HIV, they would, that was the latest thing. And he became fairly normal. And, you know, they came for my money because they wanted it for drugs. So, this was not bullying in the school.
With all due respect for people who got started that way. That's okay. But that was not my story. My story was very scary. And, you know, I got, I remember one day being punched in the stomach left on the street after they took the money. He was very rough, Jeremy. And for me, it was fear. Also, that started a change in my life, like, am I going to stop going out with a friend because now I fear these guys coming from the corner to ask me money. So, I started martial arts, in my desire to gain confidence, and went to school, and started training in a system that I loved. And, you know, one funny thing that happened is, as I've been training my current system more and more and more, I am thinking more and more of my original system and lessons, I learned that were almost like they're dormant. You know, it's almost like I appreciate it more now than I can look back. When I was doing it, he was very much a little bit frantically and for survival, and I was very young. But looking back on it, now I can see so many lessons. And back then. There wasn't a lot of like, we were a little crazy in those years in Spain. So, like, everything was very full contact and things like that. And to be honest, I learned a lot of lessons. But what he did mostly, is give me confidence. Now, I don't want any listeners here. Imagine that now when I went to the street and these people came, I was like, Can I fight 27 ninjas? Is no problem. If it was nothing like that. All it was, is that I didn't panic. And then I put my foot down. And then they left. Because those guys don't want to fight you, they want your money. If you're not an easy target. Why would they come for you? They're not fighters. They're drug addicts. So, it was never about fighting them. Why would fight hard to do anything with that that's more self-defense, right? Because a social phenomenon gave me the confidence. And that issue went away, Jeremy. So, I'm one of those people that can say your martial arts takes my life. And it's not because I kicked someone's block, but because I put my foot down. And it was incredible. It changed my life.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Wow, it sounds like that's pretty fortunate. You know, I have no, when you're talking about the dictator. You're talking about, Carlos, right. Carlos, the first?
Francis Cordon:
And now. So, Carlos was the king. Right? He actually was exiled because of Franco. Franco was the dictator.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Franco. Okay, that was the name I was looking for? Yes. Okay. I have an uncle from Valencia.
Francis Cordon:
Oh, my God. Yeah, I spent a lot of time at Valencia.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And if I want to pronounce the proper properly Valencia.
Francis Cordon:
Valencia. Exactly.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I've got a little bit of Spanish, a little bit of Spanish. I've only been there once. But it was a long time ago. And, you know, this this area you're talking about? I heard bits and pieces of this, you know, didn't get to experience it. But it's interesting, because what you're describing is something that I don't think very many people. You're talking about the 80s? Yes. That wasn't that long ago.
Francis Cordon:
Isn't that long ago? Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And, you know, Spain is a country now that is known as, you know, Europe's vacation destination. People come from all over the place and you're to go vacation in Spain on the ocean on the beaches. And it's relatively inexpensive. And it's, you know, it's just people go, but it wasn't that long ago. Nobody was going to say and I'm guessing that the timing of this, it was because of what was going on that... You're not there now, did you and your family leave as a result of all this?
Francis Cordon:
No, my family never last. Eventually, I traveled about 15/16 years ago. I settled in New York. But yeah, it was rough times. And we got to see a turnaround too. We got to see when. But you know, later in the late 80s, beginning of 90s, he got better through the midnight is it was actually pretty nice place to be. I was born in the 70s. But yeah, those that age would have coincided with the early 80s or mid 80s when it was the worst because it was going through that transformation. All right. And what's funny, goes up here that I haven't heard often in podcasts or blogs, and I think it's an opportunity to provide my particular experience, you know, back then in school. It was also like we fought a lot of friends who just fought. I don't know how to say it sounds barbaric. But in those years, it was normal, and we fought pretty crazy. And you would come home with seven bruises and your dad or mom wouldn't even look because that's all you have on your teeth, which at one day I lost one. But we did find a lot. And what's funny, if you look at today, the concept of self-defense and fighting, they are pretty much in many times in the narrative, he goes together. But for me growing up, these two things have nothing to do. You know, fighting was just familiarity with your body that we had, we fought. And that's how we bonded. In my best friends were the ones I fought with the most. It was pretty brutal, by the way, but it's what we did. And we were very familiar with those men, was my experience on the street. And the real reason why I did martial arts had nothing to do with that. I don't even expect it to become a fight in the street. It's a funny thing that for me, those two things are very decouple. Whereas I'm thankful that I had the experience of both because even though they were hard, or one of them was hard, the other one was fun. But it gives me familiarity, right? With what we're talking about. I think it was a very important foundation for my art, but I did not connect those two, you know.
Jeremy Lesniak:
There are people who say that we have a tendency toward violence, that it's part of how we create social structure as human beings and that we're working to counter that instinct, as, you know, mature society. We're trying to suppress that instinct. Is that what you're talking about? You know what some? I mean, when I was a kid, it wasn't quite to that extent. But you know, there would be scuffles and, you know, people would push each other around. And a lot of the adults would say things like, oh, kids will be kids, boys will be boys. You know, roughhousing wrestling, you know, somebody accidentally catches an elbow. There is an intent to harm, there's an intent to dominate to show superiority. Is that what you're talking about? What, maybe at a more..?
Francis Cordon:
Yeah, I think it expresses itself that he must be right. I don't know. But I suspect the system natural thing. We see it in animals too, right? I think it's a natural, if this is how they play, they play that. They play it. And they learn to hunt it that way. Right? So, for us, it was a natural thing nobody had to teach us and yet it came out. And I suppose there's a natural need to develop that in people somehow. And if you channel that the right way, and you start making it into a science that connects with your own body mechanics, then you have martial arts. But sometimes I asked myself think about martial arts. And some people could say, even though we don't say enough to write a study on violence, or at least with certain undeniable relationship to violence, and yet it becomes a beautiful dialogue between you and the person you're practicing. I mean, extremely beautiful and enjoyable way of communicating with someone that you couldn't put into words, and yet it's in the guise of violence, even though that violence has its swim lanes, so to speak, right. So, yeah, I think it's at the root of being human. And, again, some of the best martial artists that have done this, they're the most peaceful people. It's not like they want to harm anyone. It has nothing to do with that. I think it's more of an expression of something internal that becomes a way of communicating with people and when two people agree on that, it's consensual, and they can do is like equivalent to be in a drill with someone or, you know, some sort of sparring or it becomes a very good and becomes a form of communication.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Do you think that fact that I think most of us would agree that the majority of martial artists are not quite as violent? But if we were to have some way of measuring this that most martial artists are fairly peaceful or at least avoid violence. Is it that? That is who is attracted to the martial arts? Or do the martial arts have an influence on people's perceptions of violence?
Francis Cordon:
Yeah, you know, that's so interesting. You asked me that, because I have asked myself that question, right. And not being an expert, I suspect there's a combination of both. But if you think about it, on one hand, there is the very common-sense possible conclusion that what we were saying earlier, something is innate to the nature of, of people. Therefore, by being in a discipline that allows you to express it, you're more balanced, because you can let it out in a controlled way. You know, when I was a teenager, I had a temper. And I remember my parents saying that you got to go to your dojo, because my first system was Japanese. So, we called the dojo and we said, we don't want to keep the heavy bag, man, let it out, man. And they saw it as a healthy thing that I had a way to let that out, you know. So, on one hand, it's not. But on the other hand, if you have had a background, like I did very serious, related to violence, you despise it, and you really don't want it. And that's the cliche is true that many people do martial arts because they don't want through violence. And that's because I have experienced it. I don't know anyone. I mean, at least, I personally don't know anyone balanced psychologically, who has experience through violence now what they think is in the movies and all that, and actually want it, it's terrifying, you know, and people who experienced that and go through martial arts, they do it because they don't want to figure it because they want to have the power to avoid or prevent it. Or, in the very worst cases, protect others, because they know it's so horrible and so scary.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Now, you mentioned that you start a new Japanese style, but I know you train in a Chinese style now. I would imagine being in New York, you would have had plenty of opportunity to choose from. I just population wise, everything has to be available to you fairly close. So, it's probably your choice rather than feeling forced. What made you step into a Chinese?
Francis Cordon:
Yeah. Good. Good question. Yeah, to be honest. Remember, I mentioned that my dad had planted the seed of investigating Bruce Lee and I went pretty deep in that even very young. I knew things back then, about Bruce's life and teacher and system just through magazines that we had not really TV, there was not much to me. I knew a lot of things back then I remember. And so, I think in my heart, I was looking to explore experiment with Chinese systems because of that influence. I just simply could not find what I was looking for. And, you know, the school that I went to was promoting this system. And I ended up being really happy to do it. But when I came to the States, eventually, I guess I was continuing my search for this, knowing that coming to New York would increase the chances that I would find that here. And that's kind of what happened. But to be honest, even in that system, Chinese martial arts, I went through a few iterations, which lasted years, it's not like I did three months on gave up or anything like those years, I'm talking about six or seven years of trying one way. And I was still looking for something in my heart, a little freer, a little more random, in terms of expression, not because it's better, but because I'm basically I'm looking for myself in this search of what my heart is asking for. Looking for oneself doesn't mean looking for what's right. But I needed that and so eventually found my current teacher who took me already years ago and something clicked, I felt very much at home with my own expression, very free, a little bit. Were a little bit like Kung Fu. Kung Fu Mavericks, that's kind of a nice title. We're very good in terms of just training the parks and we don't have a uniform. We don't have this system, but I don't advocate that it just happens to click with me right now. And I ended up settling in the very same system that I kind of dreamed up when I was six years old on my dad started planting those seeds, but it was a tremendous, you know, I don't know how the universe did this. Very interesting. And I certainly wouldn't say that. Chinese martial arts versus Japanese, none of that. It was just a personal search of what clicks with what's inside me.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Okay, now you talked about that. Call it a longer transition, training in a variety of Chinese arts as you found this one. And I know a little bit about what you do, and you just told us a little bit you know, it doesn't sound like a large commercial enterprise. And I think I've heard you say at some point that your instructor is really choosy, is who he was, he will take on his students. What was that process like? How did you find him? And how did you decide you wanted to go through all that? And why did he accept you?
Francis Cordon:
Yeah. Oh, my God, Jeremy, I asked myself that. This happened, this is amazing. Yeah, very true, very true. As I said, the Mavericks of Kung Fu, my teacher, chose in his life at one point, to make a living with a day job, and therefore be able to be very, very picky with teaching. So, he rather has a very small handful of students that he feels good with, instead of a commercial enterprise. But please, I repeat this, it has nothing to do with whether commercial is good or not, he doesn't have it in him, he doesn't want to run commercial. Even though at one point, he did it for a few years. And so, I think he's very smart, in his case, to be honest with himself that he has a job and he doesn't have that financial dependency on students. And he is very, very picky. So how I found him or he found me. So, something in my practice after a few, but not a few, quite a few years. In this other system, I was doing right before something was there, right? Eventually, I would sit at my computer and look for something else. But I wasn't attracted to anything else. That sounded just the same because I was relatively happy. But I knew that something was missing had to do more with an alignment, my desire to practice a little more randomly train in a more chaotic way I wanted to be ready for something I associate with success in martial arts, for me was dealing with randomness, right? Dealing with chaos, and I didn't really have it. But again, it's something very personal. So, I learned that on a website, no disrespect. If my teacher listens to these, he'll chuckle, but look like a website from the 80s. We didn't really have internet to an idea. He does it on purpose, right? Nothing that looks good commercial. But there was a presence, there was a website. I don't know, something authentic attracted me maybe that aspect that he wasn't in nice, appealing website.
The fact that this was clearly someone who didn't care about keeping that updated, and to put 17,000 pictures of how good he is. And I was attracted to that someone that wasn't promoting himself, you know, as a Superman or something like that. I don't know why Jeremy, I landed on that website. And I sent an email. And this man responded very carefully. He was like, tell me about yourself and why you want to do this. I mean, it wasn't even like, okay, you found me come train wasn't even that. And so, I ended up sitting down and saying, alright, but let's just put it here. And I opened myself and wrote quite a few things in their email and even after that, he was like, ‘Okay, let's meet one day, get to know each other and we'll see after that”, you know. And then we met, and the rest is history, as they say. I think there was a great click, I was fascinated piece openness. He's very informal person not caught in the current trend, and everyone's a grandmaster. And again, I say this with respect, but again, looking for something that clicked with me. Very humble person, clearly knew a lot. I knew enough, Jeremy, to be able to read someone by touching hands and the martial artists that are listening to this will know exactly what I need, right? That's another great joy that the martial arts will give us. If you stick through enough. You touch hands with someone and you can feel it, you can determine things, you know, and I was really impressed. But he at the same time, his demeanor was so humble, clearly not eager to sign up, clearly not even to enroll me. And that attracted me even more. And that just clearly, he and I connected and it's been a roller coaster of discovery and you know, an amazing journey, and someone who encourages me to continue exploring unknown. My own journey. Not by any means to be dependent. I'm very thankful.
Jeremy Lesniak:
No, we heard a bit about what you were looking for. And I think most of us could empathize with what it's like seeking out a new school. You know, even if you haven't been through that process, the idea of looking for something new, most of us have looked for a new romantic relationship or a new place to live or a new job or a new house, we understand what that process is. It's about understanding what your needs are, what your wants are, and logistics and a bunch of that. So, I think even if people haven't been through it, they can they can understand it. What is your sense about the other direction? What was he looking for a new if he was this choosey, if he was almost having you audition in a sense? Do you have a sense as to what his parameters were for taking you off?
Francis Cordon:
Yeah, I’m not perfect, I'm probably not accurate. But, you know, through the years of training with him, and having had some conversations, because most of our dialogue, Jeremy is through training. And this is very much a practical person, not someone who will use it and talk and talk. But eventually, you know, after years and years, you get to know the person fairly well. And I think his parameters had to do with someone who, number one, someone who would question things. So, he's told me occasionally, and this is something that I don't know, I just was educated this way growing up, you just question things. So how else? Are you going to really learn something? Don't be a parent? You know, you have to question and question just doesn't mean, ask a question out loud. It doesn't mean just studying, it means a mental attitude. whether something is true or not. The truth isn't in acceptance is in making it yours. And if you don't question things, and try them and experiment, how are you going to learn? Right? I almost think about this way, the way we see the role of the teacher is to give you a blueprint, but the real learning happens when you play with that blueprint, with a friend, with a kung fu brother or sister with your forms at home, play with that blueprint. Ask yourself, wait a minute, why is he telling me to put the elbow here? What happens if I do? And that attitude is what he likes. And that's a word we, we were laughing about. Because we don't really use that word. But it was a little bit of a joke, right? If someone just wants to consider it, like a belief system, right? The martial arts have these beautiful things that they're rooted in the body. And they should promote honesty. And it doesn't mean one thing is true or the other it means you have to make it work for yourself. And the attitude of questioning things is something he's absolutely, positively actively looking for. And the other one is thinking about things which may be related, right? If I teach you something today, and you see me in a week, the fact that these seven days in between the session you've been thinking about, you've been making a part of your life, you saying wait a minute, you know, I understand what you know, there is the saying that when Bruce Lee and I'm sorry for injecting Bruce Lee.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Quite alright. Yeah, he's been referenced a lot on this show. I don't expect that to change anytime soon.
Francis Cordon:
So, one of the things about Bruce, a lot of people imagine Bruce had a lot of talent. And maybe some talent, he also overcame tremendous difficulty. But what he had was tremendous passion. So, his teacher would give him something. And by the time he saw him next week, he died 10,000 times. I mean, 10,000 times as much as someone would have taken years to do. If you just do martial art once a week, right? And so, it's that passion that made him repeated and experiment with it. And by the time he says, Bruce, a week later, he's advanced the months because of what he's done with that. And he's teacher was in love with that attitude, to be honest. He said, your group may or may not be talented, but man, he works hard. How do you work hard? Because you have a passion for it. Right? And, and here's my guess you're asking the parameters. My teacher it says looking for someone who stays with that if it teaches you something. Like I'm going to say secret here. We have forms in my training, just like many other martial arts have forms. One thing I've learned through it myself giving this to someone else, there is no way to fake whether you're training at home or not. If I give you a form today, and I see you in seven days and you've been doing it every day, your teacher will notice. It's something shows, it shows, you know. And so, in the training, that work you do with the blueprint is really the learning and it cannot be faked. And you do it not because he's in the book of good behavior for martial arts students, you do it because you love it, because you have passion.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Okay, I totally get it. Now, you mentioned it, you have a career in it. We've had a lot of martial artists on here who have careers in technology. And I've got a working theory, and you may have heard it before. But I'll ask you why there's so much overlap between people involved in tech in it. Computers, and those who train martial arts?
Francis Cordon:
Yes, absolutely. So, a lot of my martial arts friends are in it. And a decent number are in music. And these look like very different in divorce. But in reality, there's a connection, right. And I don't know if this is the only explanation. But when I started in it, it was about expressing my creativity. I started very young with home computers, these are computers today would be in a museum of museums, like he would be old stuff, even for a museum. And, I was one with that machine, I could make that machine do whatever I wanted, I could create graphics and movement and I could create sounds and I was just a geeky, you know, kid. And for me, it was very much art in the sense of what is art, expressing yourself, honestly. Right. And later on, it became too big you have its administration you have. But there's always this ability to experience creativity to play with the machine. Maybe programmers, which was my background, even though I haven't done any work. But that's really what I did for many years, by the way is the same thing my teacher does, interestingly enough, to your point of how common it is, its creativity is expressing yourself, which is really why we do Martial Arts Express in ourselves. And really why musicians are musicians to express themselves. There may be other reasons, maybe the practical reason that there is more work, and one has to feed the family. And it's not a bad career to have in terms of opportunity. Maybe that influences too, but I do believe there's an aspect of creativity and artistic endeavor or expression to I'm with you.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Right. Now, where is your training headed? You know, we've talked about a lot of the philosophy and, you know, barely scratched the service on what you do. You talked about chaos and the desire to get better in chaotic situations. And I would imagine that would extend to dynamic and varied and probably part of why your school trains in different locations. And when you talk about not having a uniform to me, that means street clothes, and you're probably training with shoes. Oh, yeah. Is this the plan for the indefinite future? Are there aspects of your training that you're looking at saying, you know, I want to spend more time on this than I have been? You know, how does? How does that unpack for?
Francis Cordon:
Yeah, that's a question. And it's a very interesting one, because only when you see enough, you can see what you don't see. Right. So, it's one of those questions that it's a little tempting to answer too early. But yes, I become. So, to begin with various the feeling that I have when I train with my teacher, that I'm a beginner, and I enjoy it. So, to be honest, it could continue like this for many years, because I have this feeling. You know, one of the titles I gave myself earlier was kung fu Maverick that perhaps a little bit ambitious. You can also call me the eternal beginner, because that's how I feel. Many times, when I train with my teacher, and not only with my teacher, we train with kung fu brothers and between us and all that. But I enjoy being because it's that sense of endless opportunity ahead of me, the field ahead of me that I can explore, that he's appealing to begin with, even in the material that we're familiar with. I have the feeling that when you really become aware, you realize you're barely scratching the surface. But that said, the more you train, the more you realize that there's certainly gaps in the in what you've accomplished, because we need to be honest, we don't get good at what we say the system has. We get good at what we train again and again, if you get anything and we have trained more things, some things more than others. Now, I am not one of those martial artists that looks at the gaps and they need to train them all. Some of the gulf side become aware, I don't have an attraction to do them. And during this is important for me because as far as I'm already, you know, almost I'm 47, Jeremy, there is a secret is out. And so, honestly, my life choices are not about overcoming zombie apocalypse. So, I don't feel the need to become good at everything that martial arts can give you. But a few of these jobs, I do feel some attraction towards. And my teacher and I have talked about it occasionally, he's encouraged me to always ask him, he will address those. Or I will look for a way to learn those. And it doesn't mean any betrayal to the system or anything like that, because he sees himself very much. He's very practical. He sees himself very much as a guide and a coach. And he wants people to he wants people to go ahead, you know, if he told me something that is made me think a lot the other day only just a few weeks ago, he told me this. He said, if you are a student of a teacher, in any discipline on Earth, what teacher wants you to be with him forever? What teacher wouldn't want you to go ahead to the next level with another teacher in physics, and mathematics? What teacher would say “no, the right path for us is to be with me forever”. That's his personality. I'm not saying that's what's right or wrong. I'm saying that's who he is. Right. And he, again, he can do that too. Because to be practical, he doesn't have a financial, because we got a racket on his world, too, right? It's a very sobering perspective. I don't know what's going to happen. I feel I'm still a beginner in his material, even though I've been doing it for years. And I could continue like that. But there are some things I'm going to explore. And mentioning to him, we're starting to explore things that all of a sudden, we're starting to practice that we didn't do before. And he's enjoying that exploration too. And we'll see where it goes. But the awareness of gaps in the training does occur. And he doesn't mean you need to train them all you need to train the ones that you feel a pull towards. Because at the end of the day, Jeremy, we do this to be happy. That's the real, most practical reason why we do martial arts today. I love it.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I get it. Right there with you. Awesome. few more things as we start to come into the final chapter of our conversation for today. And you mentioned somewhere towards the top of the episode. Yeah, I have no doubt that you will be back on the show at some point talking about something. Yeah. You talked about gaps. In your training that don't interest you. Tell us a little bit about what really does interest you that you're exploring now. And what doesn't?
Francis Cordon:
Yes. That's very interesting. So, I think it can be helpful in conversation to contextualize the art. And so far, we've been vague, because I worry about mentioning names that create division in the audience. But perhaps Jeremy, would it be okay to mention the name of the system?
Jeremy Lesniak:
Of course, okay.
Francis Cordon:
So, you know, what it is really is [00:53:31-00:53:37] which I'm sure has been mentioned many times, or your listeners are familiar with. But what's interesting is, by the time I came to my teacher, I was still dealing with labels. I would have studied with him if he told me his style was [00:53:54-00:53:56]. And I say that because it's me shortly. So, I like to say for instance, where do you teach it? What do you train, I train [00:54:00-00:54:01]? Because when I put the label of what I do, and I compare it to what I see in YouTubes, and stuff is like, it doesn't feel like the same thing. So, I'm not sure the label helps anyone but in the greater principles of the system, people identify as more striking, right? We are known for being good at striking and close combat, close range, and things like that. What attracts me is the ability to use those foundational skills to exercise control and dominance without hurting some, which is not common because the system has built in a pretty aggressive attitude. Right? Part of it is the aggressive attitude, which gives you a psychological edge. But I'm very attracted to which is harder, Jeremy, how do you take that those same principles and use them to exert troll without actually having to get someone a bloody nose or something like that. And the reason I say that is because will have many more chances of social violence in which the law isn't on your side to really hurt someone. And to be honest, you shouldn't even desire to hurt someone, you should be repulsed by and so the ability to put someone in their place with no harm can be done with this art is a recent discovery.
When I say a recent, I mean a couple years ago, realize that just with a little bit of an adaptation of the art, it can be done without actually hurting someone. Maybe by controlling the balance, maybe by controlling the space and pushing and things like that, in many social situations could be enough to put someone in their place or end an encounter without actually getting into a situation which now you have to be worried about being sued, and always leaving with yourself to because you could have heard someone severely right. And that attracts me tremendously, but not just philosophically. Even from the body mechanics standpoint. Jeremy, it's just, if you think of your art, you know how Jeremy everyone's looking for the deadliest art and I'm thinking like, “Man, what happened?” We society, we need the absolute opposite. I agree. I mean, this is not the zombie apocalypse. This is not like your question, which is really good. As you know, we do well, in zombie. We, it's really not where we live today, right? And so, I'm very attracted to the concept. Can we take our art? And can we adapt the body mechanics to control someone without them really being permanently hurt? And that attracts me? What doesn't attract me to the rest of the question is more and more brutal techniques, more and more deadly techniques? How do you get this particular pressure point and they will die in five seconds? And I'm not saying that's even true, but there is a certain art of really causing injury that maybe the SWAT team or the Navy SEALs need to know, I don't need to know that. I have no interest in knowing that. And that's part of the art that doesn't attract. It makes a lot of sense.
Jeremy Lesniak:
People if people want to get ahold of you, email, social media, anything you're willing to share publicly.
Francis Cordon:
Yes, absolutely. There are several ways. I have been working hard also.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And your YouTube channel.
Francis Cordon:
Exactly.
Jeremy Lesniak:
We got to make sure we mentioned your YouTube channel. It's out. That's ultimately how we got connected. I dropped the ball there. My bad.
Francis Cordon:
Yeah. Well, what happened is here I was training, maybe five days a week, six days a week. And it wasn't enough, Jeremy, I needed to speak about martial arts, I needed to let it out. I'm burning here with passion. And so, I started a YouTube channel. You know, and the YouTube channel is not about me doing any martial art demonstration is really the philosophy of martial arts. And recently, in great part, thanks for your help. I've taken it to the next level. And I've started a series of interviews with my friends and network and other people that I'm connecting. And so that's, my name is Francis Cordon. And it's just really the name of the channel, it will put the link but if you look for a channel called Francis Cordon show, instead of giving it a fancy name, I just call it Frasco because I started just ranting. And now it's become a series of interviews that I took about the Euro thing, Jeremy, a friend of mine, a student, of my same teacher, so my kung fu brother. His name is [00:58:47- 00:58:48]. He's a sound engineer. And he has a podcast that I co-host with him. But we don't do a lot of content because we're very busy and he's very busy and he's the engineer. So, [00:59:04-00:59:06] or my YouTube channel, or francis.cardona@gmail.com, that's fine.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Easy, but plenty of things, man. You've got two podcasts. Yeah. Sounds like somebody else I know. Yeah. I feel seen right now. Awesome. This is fun. Glad we got to have you on. And so, you know, this next part, what are your final words to the audience?
Francis Cordon:
Yes. Look, if there is one thing to remember, other than the fact that just listened to someone with a funny Spanish accent, and we don't know what he said. Remember the following, if you're practicing martial arts, don't let anyone tell you what should your goals be? What are the success criteria? The fact that in martial arts should be self-defense or sports combat or traditional, don't accept the baseline from anyone. Because the internet and the current world is just noise, even though when you use it wisely can also inspire you. Make your choice based on what you feel like in your heart. Because for you to have the passion to do this, for the rest of your life, you're going to have to enjoy it. And once you've agreed on your own success criteria, what is it that you want, pursue it, and be truthful to it. Look for a system and a teacher that agree with that. Don't try to contradict yourself, grow with it, and do not take anyone else telling you what it should be, or shouldn't be. It should be what makes you happy, and have fun with it for the rest of your life.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I hope you enjoyed that I had a good time. I've had the chance to chat with Francis on a few occasions, email and social media and just really enjoying getting to know him. And I think it's a perfect example of how there's enough room for all of us. You know, one of the things that we don't talk about too often is the fact that anybody out there with a podcast or doing something in the martial arts space, I'm more than happy to give them a platform, because I wanted somebody to give me a platform when we started and nobody was willing to. I will refuse to do business that way. So, Francis, thanks for coming on. Thanks for your friendship, your support. And I know we'll talk again soon. Listeners, I hope you enjoyed that. And if you did go to whistlekickmartialartsradio.com. Check out the show notes for Episode 616, photos, links, all that good stuff. And if you're up for supporting us in the work that we do, remember, you've got lots of options. You could share an episode, leave a review, tell a friend or contribute to our Patreon, patreon.com/whistlekick. And, you know, don't forget, we've got training programs, whistlekickprograms.com, and we've got new ones coming out all the time. In fact, if you're listening to this, even a few months into the future, there's a good chance there's something new that wasn't even in existence when we recorded this episode. So, check it out whistlekickprograms.com. I think you would be surprised at the quality that we're turning out versus what we charge actually, maybe you wouldn't rob that value over here at whistlekick. Don't forget the code PODCAST15, saves you 15% off anything at whistlekick.com. And if you've got feedback or guest suggestions or anything like that, email me, jeremy@whistlekick.com. Until next time, train hard, smile and have a great day.