Episode 611 - Freedom of Martial Arts
In this episode, Jeremy and co-host Andrew Adams talk about Martial Arts Freedom.
Freedom of Martial Arts - Episode 611
Is there freedom of martial arts? What does it mean for martial artists if there’s such a thing? Join the discussion with Jeremy and Adam as they talk about freedom within martial arts and why is it important to preserve its dynamic nature.
Show Transcript
You can read the transcript below.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Hey! What's going on, everybody? Welcome, this is whistlekick Martial Arts Radio. Today, Andrew and I... we're gonna about a kind of an interesting subject. Something that we're calling freedom of martial arts. What does that mean? You're gonna stick around and find out. Well, this is episode who-knows-what because we've stopped numbering these as we record our intros and outros because sometimes, we have to rearrange them! And... well, it just gives us a little more flexibility, but you probably saw-
Andrew Adams:
...and freedom.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And free- Ooh...ooh... threw me on that one, I like that. You already know what episode number this is, and so, if you want to, go to the show notes for this episode, go to whistlekickmartialartsradio.com. We bring you two episodes each and every week, all for free. All under the heading of connecting, educating, and entertaining the traditional martial artists of the world, and if that means something to you, if you have found value in that, you've got a lot of ways you can help us out. You can go to whistlekick.com, see all the things that we're doing. Some of those things, we charge a little bit of money for, and if you pay for 'em, it supports what we're doing here with this show and this organization. You could also use the discount code, podcast15. Helps us tie together, "Hey, when someone bought that thing, it's because they listened to that show, cool," helps us justify the expense here, and you know... I'm accountable to some people, there are some people I need to show some things to and so... it helps connect those dots. Looks good...right? Looks good on the back end, but you've also got other things that you could do. You could share episodes, you could subscribe to the newsletter, and... find out what's going on there.
You could... there's a tip jar set-up at martial arts radio's website, whitslekickmartialrtsradio.com, there's a tip jar somewhere in there if you wanna throw us a couple bucks, or if you wanna throw us a couple bucks on a recurring basis, you could contribute to the Patreon - patreon.com, patreon.com/whistlekick, you're gonna get extra exclusive content. At $2 a month, you're gonna find out what's going on behind-the-scenes. $5, you get a bonus episode. $10, you get bonus video. $25, $50, I think our top here is a $100 a month, and you know what? I worked really, really hard to make sure that if you contribute, you're gonna get more back than you put in, and I think we're doing a pretty good job at that because very rarely do people unsubscribe. The amount that we're earning continues to go up, so we're doing something right there. What was it? Last week, Andrew, there- was it a video thing or an audio thing I put up, you were mentioning it-
Andrew Adams:
It was an audio.
Jeremy Lesniak:
We, yeah well, what was it?
Andrew Adams:
I was on vacation; I don't remember half of what I did last week.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I don't either, I don't either. At some point on Thursday, I did some bonus audio, and I gotta be honest. I forgot, because we've already done a bunch of recording this morning, and so, my brain is full of what we've just recorded and what we're about to record, but I make sure that we put up a bunch of stuff. You know what? Can you look it up while I'm talking? Because-
Andrew Adams:
Sure, sure.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I wanna close the loop on this, I don't wanna- I'm embarrassed that I've already forgotten, it's only been a few days. But- Patreon is an important part of what we do. Now, on the training program side, we've got a strength program. We've got a speed development program. There's nothing like that in the world, if you wanna get faster, this is the thing. This is the way to get faster as a martial artist. [00:03:25.12] you find me another program that'll teach you how to get faster. Guess what? It's not by doing five hundred repetitions of something, doesn't make you faster. In fact, it makes you slower! I can prove it with science. You look like you're ready I can tell.
Andrew Adams:
No, so, I mean I'd have to listen to it to find out what you talked about.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Oh, I didn't title it?!
Andrew Adams:
No, well... hang on, hold on...
Jeremy Lesniak:
See? This is the raw authenticity that you get with this show that every other show would edit out. We don't edit this out. We just-
Andrew Adams:
No... but you also- you did release a behind-the-scenes text, you know, just an email to all the Patreons about like, "Here's what's coming up!", and you talked about some of the upcoming guests, so then you get kind of a sneak peek on that sort of stuff.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And it's the only place that we do that. The only place that we tell people what they're gonna see on the back-end- you know, upcoming is in the Patreon, it's something we reserve for them. So, if you wanna know who's coming and I'm starting to add more and more context in, you know, one of the things we're looking to doing is expanding the value of the Patreon. We wanted to make it so brutally obvious that this is worth you contributing to. That we're slowly putting some more resources behind it.
Andrew Adams:
We just talked this morning about you and I doing potentially a joint video project.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah!
Andrew Adams:
Exclusively for Patreon video subscribers. So that's pretty cool.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I didn't say what the episode was about, that's the problem.
Andrew Adams:
Okay.
Jeremy Lesniak:
The April 2021 podcast episode.
Andrew Adams:
It's a mystery.
Jeremy Lesniak:
It is a mystery. Alright, well... apparently, in the future, I have to add a little more descriptive text to that. Well, this is a weird intro. This might be the weirdest intro we've ever done. Let's get into the subject matter, so... freedom of martial arts, Andrew, what the heck does that mean? What are we talking about here?
Andrew Adams:
Well, freedom within martial arts, you... are allowed, I mean, everyone's allowed to do whatever they want but you know, you should be allowed to train in whatever style you want to. You should be allowed to have any opinion about martial arts that you want to. Doesn't necessarily mean that it's an opinion I'll agree with, but you're allowed to.
Jeremy Lesniak:
The original, kind of draft title of this episode was "First amendment of martial arts", and you know, we chose not to run with that title for a few reasons. We don't even talk about those reasons, but the reason that that's how it came out originally was, what is the first amendment of the U.S. constitution? Say, for those of you who may not be U.S. citizens, you may not know, but I'm gonna guess that you've actually heard this because it's such a fundamental part of what has become prominent in western culture, the idea that speech should not be infringed.
Andrew Adams:
We refer to the first amendment as the freedom of speech.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Right, it's also other things in there. So, freedom of martial arts. The reason the first amendment is as cut and dry as it is... and unfortunately, we're at a time when some people are starting to push back on it and hopefully that doesn't change anything, is slippery slope because, and many of you heard me say it [00:06:47.11] if I say that is martial art and that is not a martial art, in doing so, claiming that I have the authority to do that. If I see someone's rank is illegitimate, what gives me the right, the authority, to determine that? Why is my right to determine someone's rank greater than someone else's? Now, remember, as a pursuit, as a lifestyle, martial arts is not structured and organized in the same kind of government overseen way that some other things are. If we say, "You know what? That is the best basketball team in the world," there's a good chance that if I make that statement, people are saying, "Oh, well you're probably talking about the team in the NBA that won the finals last year." Right, there's a reasonable assumption that that's what's going to happen because the best basketball players in the world generally end up in the NBA and they play and they're a team and there's one organization that is... by most people who are aware of the sport, seen as the governing body, the authority in the space.
Andrew Adams:
It's easier to quantify.
Jeremy Lesniak:
We don't have that martial arts. We never had that martial arts. I hope we never do.
Andrew Adams:
No, I don't think it would benefit anything.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Right. So, if we don't have that central point, we don't have that governing body, why does one claim... get to be more authoritative than another? I don't think it does. Now, that doesn't mean I have to agree with everything somebody does, but it means that my... and I can even complain, I can say, "I don't like what you're doing." That person doesn't have to listen. We have equal right to determine what is and is not a martial art, what is and is not legitimate, and when we do that, what does that leave us with? Worry about ourselves. Worry about your own darn training! There are a lot of people out there who spend a lot of time worried about what everybody else is doing, and they don't train anymore. I don't care. I don't care what you think about what that other person is doing, I care about what you are doing to better yourself as a martial artist. What you're doing to better your students, your fellow students, how are you helping your instructor? How are you supporting the martial arts as an industry? Instead of just trying to, you know, sling mud around everywhere.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah, I think that the topic that comes up all the time, which I know you have discussed in episode 359 pretty extensively, was the "McDojo". The term "McDojo"... and I, as a person, am absolutely welcome to feel that that school across the town, doesn't do a good job. I am allowed to have that opinion. That's part of the freedom. Like, that school is allowed to do whatever they want. It doesn't mean that I have to agree with what they're doing, but it doesn't mean that it's wrong, it's just not for me.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And let's carry this out a little bit further, because there are people who will say, "That school is illegitimate, teaches poor things, and should not exist," that is what a lot of people are trying to say when we talk about freedom of martial arts. I'm saying-- I'll leave it to you to agree or not. I'm saying that no one has the right to determine what is and is not legitimate, what is and is not a martial art, who is and is not a martial artist. Now, I have a definition of what a martial art is. I have a definition of who is a martial artist is. I've shared those on the show. Many times. I'll probably share them again in the future.
Andrew Adams:
And I'm allowed to have a different definition.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Absolutely, and by having different definitions, it can lead to some wonderful discussion; but what happens when I say, let's say for example, I've got- I mean- I do, we've got some reach here... right? Let's play out the hypothetical that would never happen, where martial arts radio, whistlekick by extension, takes stance on a particular instructor and their school and their style being illegitimate, and no one should patronize their school. Maybe they have tournaments, they should not go to them, and everyone should actively disengage with them. Not just ignore them, but you know, leave them hate on their social media, etcetera. Let's pretend we did that one day. It's gonna come back. Why do I, or we, get to say that is a martial art? Who has granted us the authority to do so? And this is why, the original show title had to do with first amendment of martial arts; because in the first amendment, the only reason it works is that it is absolute. The moment you start compromising it, well, what's hateful speech? What differs between you and me? We'll find a lot of common ground, but what if I think this is hateful and you don't? Well, okay so now, do we remove everything that everyone thinks is hateful? There's no speech left! Do we remove everything that someone thinks is an illegitimate martial art? There's nothing left.
Andrew Adams:
Exactly.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Do we remove everyone that someone thinks is a terrible instructor, is an illegitimate martial arts instructor for whatever reason? There's no one to teach martial arts.
Andrew Adams:
Yup.
Jeremy Lesniak:
There is no opportunity for gray in this subject, because when you have gray... the only possible way that happens is it is as a slide down the bottom, or it's because you're saying, "I am more authoritative in my stance, and thus, I know more, I'm in a better position, and everyone should listen to me and not someone else." Those are the only two options I see, and I don't think either of them are appropriate.
Andrew Adams:
No.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And I think that there's the cliche you can't please all the people all the time, you can only please some of the people some of the time. There are people that I look up to and follow-on social media, martial artists, who are-- we've had them on the show, very well-known, very-- I hate using this word, reputable, cause that's not what I'm getting across but--
Andrew Adams:
Famous?
Jeremy Lesniak:
Famous, yeah, and that are well looked up to. They have haters. There are people who don't think what they're doing is good, but I think what they're doing is good.
Andrew Adams:
So, should they stop doing what they're doing because that other person thinks it's not?
Jeremy Lesniak:
No, absolutely not.
Andrew Adams:
Does that other person have the authority to say, "Your rank is not recognized because you're not part of this organization?"
Jeremy Lesniak:
No, because no one has that authority.
Andrew Adams:
Right. Right.
Jeremy Lesniak:
This has been [00:14:20.25] remain, I suspect, one of my pet peeves within our space for a very long time to come, and it means- it does mean that there are styles, schools, individuals who teach things that I think are absolutely ridiculous! I think they're silly. I think they're ineffective. I think-- you know, there are instructors out that I think are jerks. If people were not deriving value from training at those schools with those people and those styles, they wouldn't go!
Andrew Adams:
Absolutely.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I'm a big free market guy, people know this. I've been very open about this. I'm a pretty [00:15:06.05] capitalist. Let the market figure it out. I'm not talking about free market capitalism in regard to things outside of martial arts, at this moment because that's not what, you know, this show is about, but I apply that here. If you are a martial arts instructor, and you provide no value to your students, they're not gonna show up. They're not gonna part with their money. They're not gonna part with their time. They're not gonna invest their energy. Doesn't matter if you're legitimate or not in somebody else's eyes. You only have to make those people happy. Let's take an example completely outside of martial arts. Andrew, you're married.
Andrew Adams:
Uh-huh.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Does your wife think you're worth remaining married to?
Andrew Adams:
Well, she hasn't left yet, so I-
Jeremy Lesniak:
Exactly. See? That is exactly the point. Does it matter if every other person on the planet thinks that you are not marriage material?
Andrew Adams:
I mean-- my first wife didn't think I was.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Right. So, you moved on. Right?
Andrew Adams:
Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And I hope that we're good enough friends that that example is okay, because it was the best cut and dry one I could come up with.
Andrew Adams:
Absolutely.
Jeremy Lesniak:
It doesn't matter what everyone else thinks. It matters what she thinks.
Andrew Adams:
Mm-hm.
Jeremy Lesniak:
It doesn't matter to me if everyone on the planet thinks this show is not worth listening to, because you, right now, are listening to it or watching it, and that's what matters to me. That we have some attention. As long as there are some people who find what we do valuable, we'll keep doing it.
Andrew Adams:
And the best part is, even the haters will watch this episode.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I know, this episode will probably get a lot of flak. So, you're saying that even yes, even that person, even that school, even that style, yes, even the most ridiculous things. Why? Because how else do you draw the line? If someone can give me a definition of what good martial arts is, that is universally agreed upon, I will change my stance... but I would put everything that I would stake, everything I own, on the fact that we will never come up with that agreement.
Andrew Adams:
Yup, I think you're right... and it all boils down to everybody likes different things, you know. I listen to a non-martial arts podcast, and one of the-
I know. One of the tenants of the show says people like what they like... and it doesn't get much more basic than that. People like what they like... and if someone is going to that school and likes it, who am I to say they're wrong?
Jeremy Lesniak:
I bet many of us have found this. Have you ever participated in a martial arts school for a period of time, one that you enjoyed, loved? And you watched someone come in the door and then leave? Maybe not like, that day, but they didn't stick around for long?
Andrew Adams:
Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Is that making a judgement that your school sucks? That it's not good enough? What if you find out that person went down the street to another martial arts school? Well, that school doesn't matter.
Andrew Adams:
People like what they like.
Jeremy Lesniak:
We have a finite amount of time, energy, money to invest in things. Every minute you spend complaining. Every bit of energy you invest, slinging mud, you could be training. You could be teaching. If you care so much about martial arts, why not invest those resources in making yourself, people around you, better? Because let's face it, if there was an option-- let's take a medium size city that has, you know, say... a handful five, six, seven, ten martial art schools. Why do all of those schools exist? Because some, at least one person, wants something that is not provided by the others. If one of those schools was the absolute best in every possible way, the other schools wouldn't exist. If there was a best car, other car companies couldn't compete. If there was a best place to live, everyone would live there. Now, there can be a best martial art for you, there could be a best car for you, there could be a best place to live... and I think a lot of times people get bent out of shape because what they value is not necessarily what other people value. If I come up with a... new style of martial arts that I say is the absolute best thing in the world, I've taken this from here and that from there and I'm turning the Black belt, you've learned how to fly, okay.
Andrew Adams:
Cool.
Jeremy Lesniak:
There are gonna be people who don't like that. Doesn't work for them. They're not gonna try. Now, some of those people will do it because they love what they do, others will do it because they're afraid of what finding something better might mean for them, and it doesn't matter, because we all have freedom, as martial artists, to define what martial arts is to us, and to train in whatever way, satisfies the conditions that create value for us.
Andrew Adams:
Yup. Absolutely, and If you continue to surround yourself with people that feel the same way, you don't feel worried about what other people are doing or saying.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yup. So, let's sum this up. Number one, nobody has the right to tell you that your rank, your form, your instructor, your school are illegitimate. No, that doesn't mean they're not gonna do it, but they don't have the right to do it.
Andrew Adams:
And they're welcome to think it if they want to.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yup, yup. There's a difference between an opinion and a judgement. There are plenty of things that I think, as opinions, are not worth the time, not worth the energy. They're silly, they're wasteful. But if it works for someone else, who am I to take that away from them?
Andrew Adams:
Yeah. Absolutely, and it's okay to have an opinion. You know, some people don't feel that boxing is a martial art. You know what, my opinion, boxing is not a martial art.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Okay.
Andrew Adams:
Your definition of martial art is different. What they don't-- I don't wanna say don't because they have freedom of speech, they can say whatever they want, but to be authoritative and say, "Boxing is not a martial art." There's a difference between "I don't think boxing is a martial art," and "Boxing is unequivocally not a martial art, and anyone who boxes is not a martial artist and if you box, and you think you're a martial artist, you're wrong."
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah, exactly. There's some nuance in there, right? We're getting kinda philosophical here, because there are people who think that and have the right to say that... but when those thoughts become a desire to enforce that belief on others who do not share it. It becomes problematic.
Andrew Adams:
Yup, I'm with you.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And let's remember, as martial artists, we are better when we have conflict, sparring, self-defense, freeform movement that involves other people, that's a type of conflict. It's orchestrated, it's not real, if Andrew and I spar, it's not because I hate him or trying to take his lunch money, but we get better because we have that exchange back and forth. If we have differing opinions, by discussing them, we get to reenforce and explore and understand our ideas, and this show has been a big part of that for me, and this is one of the reasons, Andrew, I'm glad that you are part of this show because instead of me, kinda talking in a vacuum, you know, sometimes we disagree.
Andrew Adams:
Yup, Best of the Best.
Jeremy Lesniak:
...is a terrible movie.
Andrew Adams:
Says you, and you're allowed to think that-
Jeremy Lesniak:
I am allowed to think that, and you're wrong. It's a silly but a great example. If I think that movie sucks, because I think it does, I'm entitled to that. I don't need to watch it, but when I say... If I'm gonna go further and say, "Andrew, you shouldn't watch it anymore. If you're going to watch it, we're not gonna be friends," that's worse, or If I campaign to whatever the company that owns it and say, "You know what, this movie is so terrible that you should never allow anyone else to watch it," and I invest my time in that, that's where it's the problem. That's where I'm overstepping, because why would I wanna deprive Andrew if Andrew genuinely enjoys that movie? Why would I want to deprive him of something that he enjoys? It doesn't hurt me that he thinks it's great and I don't. What's the value here? We enjoy picking each other about it, right? That's the best part.
Andrew Adams:
Yup. So, freedom of martial arts. You have the freedom to train how you want, where you want, with whom you want, in whatever style you want, and if people don't like that, that is their problem. Not yours. And people are allowed to think what they want.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yup, and we're gonna have some people who disagree with this, and I'm open to discussion. I'm open to hearing about it. if you have feedback on this, I would love for it to be public, so there's two places where engaging on this would be most appropriate. Number one, at whistlekickmartialartsradio.com, as a comment on whatever episode this ends up being. Two, in the whistlekick martial arts radio behind-the-scenes Facebook group. If you're not a part of that group, go ahead. Go join that group, we have some fun in there, and I would love to see more conversation coming out of these shows, because I think we're better when we have these conversations. Anything to add before we roll out?
Andrew Adams:
No, I don't think so.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Alright. Well, thank you for watching, listening, everybody and if you want to support us, remember, we've got a bunch of stuff that you can do. You can buy books, leave reviews, share episodes, Patreon.com./whistlekick, make a purchase at whistlekick.com, use the code 'PODCAST15', and of course, we have our training programs if you wanna get faster, I'm telling you. I don't know martial artists in the world who doesn't wanna be faster. The training protocol that we wrote, supplements, with everything else that you do, takes a few minutes a day, and you will get faster. I will guarantee it. If you follow it, you will get faster, and you will probably get faster with that than anything else that you've ever done. So, give it a try. If you have feedback, topics, guest suggestions, whatever that is, email me,[00:26:20.03]whistlekick.com. Our social media is @whistlekick, everywhere you could think of, and that's all we got for today. So, until next time, train hard, smile, and have a great day.