Episode 610 - Master Instructor Michael Celona
Master Instructor Michael Celona is a Martial Arts practitioner, instructor, and owner of the Revolution Martial Arts Institute in Swarthmore, PA.
I think when somebody fully grasps a certain set of concepts or certain way of doing things, then they can branch out and see how they might change things and become willing to understand and admit that maybe some things they did was a mistake.
Master Instructor Michael Celona- Episode 610
Master Instructor Michael Celona has been training in the Martial Arts for 30 years and currently holds the rank of 6th Degree Black Belt. He started to train at age 10, where most kids of that age gradually fade away from Martial Arts, Master Instructor Celona held on in spite of playing other team sports.
His main style is Pilsung Moo Do under Grandmaster Young H. Kwon of the Pilsung Martial Arts Association, which Master Celona currently serves as Secretary-General.
Master Instructor Michael Celona is the Owner and Master Instructor of Revolution Martial Arts Institute in Swarthmore, PA. Founded in 2012
Show Notes
In this episode, we mentioned Mr. Iain Abernathy
Show Transcript
You can read the transcript below.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Hello, and how's it going, everybody? Welcome. You're listening to whistlekick Martial Arts Radio Episode 610 with my guest today, Master instructor, Michael Celona. I am Jeremy Lesniak, I'm a host on the show. I'm the founder of whistle kick, and I love traditional martial arts of all sorts. And if you want to see everything that we do to support the traditional martial arts community, go to whistle kick, calm, that's where you're going to find all kinds of stuff, including our store. And that's one of the ways that we help pay the bills at this show, is what the store it was so kick calm, we've got a bunch of good stuff over their shirts and uniforms and there's still some sparring gear and a bunch of other things you can check out. And if you use the code PODCAST15. It saves you 15% on anything that you buy there. The show Martial Arts Radio gets its own website, whistlekickmartialartsradio.com because no one's ever accused me of creatively titling things. We bring you two episodes each and every week with the goal of connecting, educating and entertaining you the traditional martial artists of the world. And who want to help the show. If you want to help our big old scary mission. You can do quite a few things. You could make a purchase. Like I said, you could share an episode, tell people about what we're doing. Help us grow, leave reviews, pick up a book at Amazon, grab a program, at whistlekickprograms.com or support the Patreon, patreon.com/whistle kick. If you contribute as little as a couple bucks, we're going to give you back original content you will not find now or ever, anywhere else. If you give us a little bit more, we're going to give you more. In fact, the more you're willing to contribute, the more you get back. So go check that out patreon.com/whistlekick. Later today, I will be recording the exclusive video episode that we do. And if you're in the appropriate tier, you'll get access to that. What is it? Well, you have to go find out because I haven't decided yet. But they're fun. They're good people like them. People don't stop contributing very often. So, we're doing something right. Today's episode is with another passionate martial artist, someone that I found a lot of synergy live with somebody that I think, you know, our stories are so similar in so many ways. And when I get to have conversations with people like I can relate to that. I can see myself in as we're talking. It's just engaging, but it's also inspiring to see how other people took their martial arts journey, how they're doing some things that are similar, but other things that are really different. And that just continually keeps me pumped up on martial arts because there are so many directions that we can take what we learn. So instead of going any deeper, I'm getting out of the way. Let's do it. Michael, welcome to whistlekick Martial Arts Radio.
Michael Celona:
Hey, Jeremy, how's it going?
Jeremy Lesniak:
It's going great. I appreciate you being here. How's it going for you?
Michael Celona:
Going well, the sun is shining and feeling pretty good. Feeling loose and ready to dive in.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Nice. Nice. You know, it's funny that even when we're inside, we really react to the weather. You know, beautiful day out, but I'm inside and then might create some frustration or some tension. Or all the weather's terrible outside? And I'm mad about that, too. Yes. When we're inside, I don't think we're ever happy about the weather. Right when we're outside, we're happy about it when it's good weather.
Michael Celona:
We're very much connected to it very much.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I think more than we realize.
Michael Celona:
Yes. Both in a positive and in a negative way. Hmm.
Jeremy Lesniak:
You ever train outside?
Michael Celona:
Of course.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I love training outside.
Michael Celona:
I do too.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Except when it's cold and rainy, cold I can do because you can put on clothes, right? But right. You know, when that Gi or Dobak whatever it gets wet. It's kind of...
Michael Celona:
I don't mind it quite so much when it's wet. It's cold and wet. Yeah, that I can't deal with like, you know, in the summertime when it's hot. Sometimes we'll go out for a few minutes. And when it's raining, you know, my advanced class and we'll do a couple things outside just to say hey, look at us, you know, we're doing cool stuff in the rain. And everybody gets a kick out of that, but cold and wet.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I'm too much of a baby. Not a fan, not a fan, whether it's martial arts context or hiking or I get to work around the house or whatever. If it's cold and wet, I'm probably unhappy.
Michael Celona:
Yeah, yeah, it's funny. Um, you know, this past winter, we had a number of storms here in the Philadelphia area. And we had to cancel classes, one of the days. So, it was I believe it was a Monday and Monday is like the day of the week that it's like my day then I bust out all of my, my forms. So, I know how I feel like that's like my tradition, that's like my time to practice my forms. And if I don't get to that, for whatever reason, I hate myself. So, I thought it'd be kind of cool because, you know, we were doing the classes, and then we have, you know, the online element because of the people that are still uncomfortable training in the studio. So, I thought it's kind of cool to go out in the snow, and do all of my forms. So, speaking of, you know, being cold and wet, you know, it was bundled up pretty good. And I, you know, filmed with my phone, myself doing, doing the various forms in our system in different settings and stuff like that, so that when the students watch it, they can follow along. And just for fun, I decided to do one in my Dobak, no shoes, you know, no hat, or gloves, just old school, hardcore. And I did my Hache code on and I think about, it's about 10-15 seconds in. I was like, “what am I doing?” Like, it was so cold that my feet were causing the snow, to instantly turn to ice under my feet. So, I'm like, I don't want to fall down on the camera. And then I'll you know; I'll never hear the end of it. You're live that down? Yeah, exactly. But it was, it was fun. But at the same time, it was miserable. But in a good way.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I think there's something to be said for that kind of uncomfortable training. Yes. Real life. I mean, if not everybody cares about the real-world application of martial arts, and that's okay. But if you do, and the only time you train is in the school, in your uniform, comfortable, then, you know, what about that application? And it's something that I that I think about and so when we talk about being in the snow being uncomfortable being cold, you know, how often are we, you know, hurrying in the winter, from point A to B not really paying attention? Because, you know, we didn't bring a hat or we didn't wear a warm enough jacket. And, you know, that's a great opportunity for someone to take advantage.
Michael Celona:
Yes. And I think that there's something to be said, with, you know, getting to your, your previous point, you need to have, at least a little bit some point of being uncomfortable, or learning to be comfortable with being uncomfortable, almost like you're embracing it a little bit. And I think that people that are, you know, like, I don't want to say, old school or new school, but like somebody who's serious about their martial arts training, you know, you need to be comfortable with that, at some point, you know, at least in my opinion.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I agree. The idea of getting comfortable with being uncomfortable. I think there's a strong thread of that, that weaves through martial arts. You know, if you are comfortable, I think, by definition, you're doing things that you've always done in the way that you've done them. Yeah, comfort, when we think about comfort, what's comfort, it's sitting on my couch, in climate control, and maybe having, you know, some manner of beverage that I enjoy, and there's no, you know, the house isn't on fire, and people aren't driving me crazy, and, you know, whatever it is. But in order to progress, we've got to stretch those boundaries and stretching boundaries, by definition is uncomfortable.
Michael Celona:
Yes. Yes. There needs to be, you know, not to the point where it's, you know, overwhelming or counterproductive, but, you know, like, if I got frostbite on my feet, then I might not be able to train. I want to train for a while, you know, get my toes amputated or something like that. That's not smart. But, you know, I agree, there needs to be some kind of pushing the limit or some kind of pushing the boundaries and the idea of being uncomfortable is kind of like it comes with the territory.
Jeremy Lesniak:
One of the things that I like to think about when we talk about martial arts, I often bring things back to weightlifting and other, let's say, “more traditional fitness disciplines”, because there's some objectivity in there. You know, when you talk about running, you can run for time and you can score it in a way that we really can't score. Martial Arts. I'm not talking about competition, but scoring progress. It's almost entirely subjective. And when I think about weightlifting, the ability to move certain amount of weight, if I can pick up 100 pounds, I don't get better picking up 10 pounds or 20 pounds, which is really comfortable, it's easy. I've got to pick up 60/70 pounds out of that 100 that I can move for my body to progress. And one of the things that studies have shown us in that realm, and I think you could make the same claim about martial arts, that the more time you put in the closer and closer to that boundary, you have to get in order to inspire the body to change.
Michael Celona:
Yes, yes. Not only that, but you know, you need to, every once in a while, you need to see that type of progress, so that you feel motivated to do it again. And I think, you know, if you're doing the same thing, getting into your weightlifting analogy, you know, if you're lifting only half of what you normally can lift, because it's comfortable, you know, over an extended period of time, and like, “Hey, you know, I haven't really seen any growth or any progress. It's like, maybe I'm not pushing myself close to my boundary often enough to see progress.”
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah, how do you get faster at throwing kicks, you got to throw them really fast. You don't get faster by doing a bunch of slow kicks. Your forms don't get better by doing a walking through them, you know, half I guess I'll say half assed. Right. Right. You know, it's like, I'm putting in 50%, you know, you don't get better that way. In fact, you probably get one depending on how old school the blaze your training is. Almost everywhere, I've trained training that way, you know, you get a hand up side, the back of the head. Yeah. How about you? You mentioned old school, new school. Where do you start along that continuum? What was what was early training like for you?
Michael Celona:
So, um, I started in the early 90s, started in 1990, at, at a school in Philadelphia, under Lewis Marvel, and from what I remember, since it was so long, I feel like training was tough. In the beginning, I mean I was 10 years old when I first started, so I wasn't in the hardcore type of class. And in the very beginning, because I was mostly with children, beginners, but I'd say maybe a year, year and a half into it, when I was able to jump into, like, the teen adult classes as a brown belt, or red belt, I noticed a shift in how the classes were done, you know, I was training more with the head instructor. And I'll never forget the first time I experienced continuous contact, like dojang type sparring, where you're not stopping and starting after every point. So previously, you know, everything we did, sparring wise in class was, three points, and you're done time for a new match kind of thing. And I did okay, at that, you know, I was always very... I had good flexibility, but I was a little bit on the weaker side, and, you know, kind of small. So, I tried to be quick and everything. So, I was okay, at doing point fighting, but I was afraid of contact. And that was one of my big hang ups. So, point fighting was okay for me. So then when I jumped into this, you know, the older and more, you know, I guess you can call it an old school type of training. I remember, I got tagged really good. The head with a roundhouse kick by an older boy. And I looked at my instructor, like, are you going to call stop, and this other kid just kept coming at me? And I didn't know. It was like, “No, you keep fighting”. And that was really eye opening. And that was like, my first dose of like a little more intense, a little older school. I remember we did a lot of physical conditioning, a lot of body conditioning, doing drills where we're, you know, smacking arms together and stuff like that. And in the beginning, I was resistant to it because I wasn't, you know, it wasn't what I was used to and it was a little bit tough and there, I'm sure there were some was uncomfortable. It was very, exactly. It was uncomfortable. And you know, thankfully at the time my father was training alone alongside and he was able to relate like, “Hey, this is like your next step, being ready for this type of stuff because you're going to get better”. And you know he always had a not so gentle way of putting it. And I don't know if you'll have to edit this out but he'd be like, you got your ass kicked again today. It's like, “Thanks, Dad, you know, we're stuck locking your face”. Yeah, that kind of stuff. And in the beginning like it was really tough. But then I started to become more receptive to it and a little more resilient to it. And then I think the big turnaround for me for when I kind of changed my mindset was, I want to say it was maybe 13 or 14, I bought a copy of a book of five rings, by Miyamoto Musashi. And, you know, I was at the time, I was going through a phase where I liked anything, samurai. And I thought that was cool. And I liked the artwork on the front of the book. And I picked up a copy on a school field trip to Philadelphia, believe it or not, and I sat on the school bus on the on the way home or the way back to school, reading a book of Five Rings, and it kind of changed my mentality towards training and how I viewed that, you know, that that hardcore type of training that, you know, that I felt was improving my martial arts? Because a little less resistant to it.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Now, you mentioned your father, was he at all? Part of the reason you got into it?
Michael Celona:
Actually, no, I started training first. And then maybe about a month or two into training. My father joined, but my father had experience. You know, he kind of grew up in a rough area, my grandfather passed away when my dad was really young. And you know, my dad, being the youngest of what four brothers, you know, he kind of had to fend for himself a little bit. And, you know, he played ice hockey. So that was kind of like a rough and tumble kind of kind of sport, you know, in Philadelphia in the 1970s, where everything was Broad Street bullies and Rock’Em, Sock’Em hockey. So, my dad had that kind of that kind of mentality. So, when he started training, it was something that we did together. You know, I didn't play, I didn't play hockey in school until much later. So martial arts were always my first love. And that was something that he and I had done. So, he was coming from like that, that tough upbringing kind of mentality to kind of push and guide me in the direction that, you know, that I ended up today. So, I look back on that time period, as, you know, one of my favorite times training, even though it was very uncomfortable at times, and everybody hated sparring my dad because he had those big, concrete, you know, forearms and stuff like that. He's very, very strong. But, you know, it was always a learning experience. And it was always, you know, if I survived without getting too banged up, then I felt accomplished. You know, I felt like I had a good, a good class like, I got somewhere. So, yeah, we trained together for about eight years. He stopped after he got his first on, but I look back on that fondly. That time period. Nice.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Sounds like a lot of good memories, and probably some interesting conversation on the drive home. Oh, yeah.
Michael Celona:
Anyways, it was usually like, how I messed up or how I did it when I was younger, I was always a forms and weapons kid. Yeah, that was really. Yeah, that was what I leaned to at first. That was what I got, you know, decent at first was forms and weapons. You know, I didn't improve my sparring and things like that until later on as I got a little bit older, which I guess is kind of like most kids when they start off in martial arts, they tend to gravitate towards the stuff they view as cool like, you know, doing some kind of fantastic form or some kind of cool weapon or something like that. So that I think I was very typical in that sense.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Now you started to kind of an interesting time, right? Because you're right. Kind of if I've got my math, right, you're just before Ninja Turtles movies come out? Yes. But age wise, I think you said you were 10? Yes, when you started. So, you are kind of heading into that adolescent phase which you have a school, you know, it's a time where a lot of kids start to fade away that 10/11/12, especially 13/14. You know, you keep a kid through that time. It's a victory. Yes. But I'm not hearing that you stepped away just in the language that you've used, am I correct.
Michael Celona:
Um, when I was, I want to say, junior and senior in high school, I didn't train as much as much as I would have liked to. You know, I was playing hockey for school, or whatever. So, I was kind of sporadic in my training, but I did train a bit on my own when I couldn't get to the get to the studio. So, all the way up through I guess, my sophomore year, in high school, I was training, you know, maybe four nights a week. No, I was still up for a kid. Yeah, I was there all the time. So when, you know, shortly after I got my black belt, I kind of slowed down a little bit, played a little bit of sports in school, but I never lost my love for and I always maintained, I always maintained my practice and my skills, and I could get to the studio. You know, like I said, not as often as I would have liked. But I always knew that, you know, when my schedule kind of freed up a little bit that I would go back and read after I graduated high school. I jumped back in with both feet, you know, 345 days a week, whenever I could get in, I was fortunate to when I started going to college. I went locally, I went to the Art Institute of Philadelphia, and it was just a short bus ride over to the dojang, and I was able to get there. You know, after classes,I was done my schedule, my first couple of years in college was great in the sense that I was done most days, by five o'clock. And I had Friday's off, which was awesome. So, I was literally getting done classes at school and hopped on the bus or walked if it was nice, and went to the studio and was there until nine 9:30 at night training four or five nights a week. So, you know, I always felt like I needed to make up for some of the last time when I wasn't training as much as I would have liked, my junior and senior year in high school.
Jeremy Lesniak:
As we already said, and acknowledged a lot of adolescence, you know, fade away during that time. And you're a teacher now. Is there anything from your time at that age that you stayed engaged, anything you learned, that you incorporate now to keep younger students involved that listeners might be able to learn from?
Michael Celona:
I think one thing that I tried to do is I try not to fall into the trap, because you figure if I've had a student for a number of years, like if they started when they were a, you know, 7/8/9 years old, by the time they hit 13/14, they might be around first-degree black belt, or close to it. If they're training hard, and they're committed, you know, at that age group, if I'm going to keep them around, it needs to be fresh. It can't just be you're going to learn your next form or you're going to learn your next weapon. I think, you know, at least some of the schools that I've seen and have been a part of in the past. That's really all it was after black belt. It was a lot of here's your new form. Here's your new your new weapon. And I think after a while people, especially if they've been training for five years, you know, when they hit that high school stage, they might look at that as either boring or it's not cool or whatever. So, the one thing that I've been trying to do has been trying to add new and different and exciting things, whether it be Chi types, or Brazilian Jiu jitsu, which I've been studying for the past five years. So, it's something new, and it's something different. And it doesn't feel so repetitive. I think that's the thing that I tried to do. And at least, for the most part, I feel like we're successful with. I mean, we keep a fairly decent amount of our teenagers. So, I mean, COVID aside, you know, it's kind of hard to judge right now, because of everything going on, but at least that's what I tried to do. I mean, the general rule at my studio is that members have their required material that they have to learn and develop to a certain standard certain level. But I make no secret that there are so many other things that I can teach, and that they can learn. If they... If it's warranted, if they show that they have their material down to a certain point, I tried to say, “Okay, well, here's this form that we don't practice, or here is this self-defense skill that we don't normally practice that's not required”. And I kind of tailor it to that person. If that person is more of a forms or weapons person, and then sure, you know, I'll show them something like that. But if they're more self-defense, sparring, you know, type of person, and they like, for lack of a better term, they like a little more of the rougher stuff, or the practical application stuff, I kind of, you know, show them something like that, or, you know, that's the experiment that I'm currently doing right now.
Jeremy Lesniak:
That's the second time that you've brought up, kind of recognizing the individual and helping, maybe guide is too strong of a word, but at least out in awareness that different people respond to different aspects of martial arts training. And, you know, this is such a divisive topic, because some instructors will say, no, you've all got to learn this, and I don't care if you like this more than this, you're still going to do it. And I've, even to a certain degree, advocated for spending the most time training in the things that you're the least that you enjoy the least, because that's probably where you suck the most. Yeah, and that's going to lead to the most benefit overall, how do you manage that, because, you know, of course, if we leave teenagers, especially up to their own devices, if the kid likes sparring, they're going to only want to spar the kid. Legs, arms are only going to want to do for, you know, and you fall out of that well rounded martial arts curriculum. How do you balance that?
Michael Celona:
So, I think, in that sense, I'm lucky with our organization, for lack of a better term, we've reduced the number of requirements, that we have to teach for our association, for example, um, I came up through the [00:28:32-00:28:34], and currently from white belt to black belt, there are 11 empty hand forms, that you have to learn to achieve a first time. And I believe if their curriculum is still the same, they have two weapons forms, stat forms. So, the organization that I belong to, because the forms themselves are not the old traditional forms, but their modern interpretations of the older forms, we have five. So, the number you know, drastically is reduced from eleven to five to reach first on and then they have one form that they have to learn and they have one nun chuck form that they have to learn. So, it's kind of spread out a little more. So, my belief is that, okay, the number of requirements as far as forms go, for example, is less than what it was when I came up. But at the same time, in some respects, the forms are a little bit more difficult because there's more kicking there's less repetition in the forms. So, in a sense, they're harder to learn, but there's less of them because they're in there. And they're very dynamic. So, I tried to tell the students, okay, you have this material that you have to learn, which is not a whole lot, if you practice diligently, you know, you can pick it up relatively quickly. And then you have these other kind of skill sets that you can, you can pick up, you know, according to what somebody's personal preference is. Coming up through the ranks, we had to do a set of 31 step sparring, hand techniques, 31 steps, pouring kicking techniques, and 31 step sparring staff techniques, and, you know, myself and some of the other instructors that I'm affiliated with, we were like, you don't really need that many if you're trying to develop the sense of distance and timing and things like that, and teaching kids how to move and how to cut angles and things like that, you don't really need 30 hands and 30 kicks and 30 staff. So, we will the number down to like the 10 best hands, the 10 best kicks and the 10 best stab techniques, that way somebody could theoretically learn it, you know, relatively quickly, and get it to a higher level so that way, they have the freedom to explore other aspects of their training. And we had the freedom to introduce other aspects of training that might not be, you know, prevalent in like a very strict, you know, kind of by the book, kind of kind of system. So, I'm thankful for that.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I'm right on board with you. One of the things I've seen over the last, probably 10/20 years is this tendency towards accumulating as many forms and things as possible as styles become hybridized. You know, I grew up in in Goju, and Taekwondo. And I'm going to take all my Goju forums, and I'm going to take all of my Taekwondo forums, and I'm going to have my students learn all of them, so they can get the best of both. Yeah. But that dilutes the time in on anyone. Yes. And it sounds like you are, honestly, I feel because I've talked about this a little bit, but it sounds like you're a little bit ahead of quite a few people, which ironically, is the way it used to be done, that there is something to be said for the simplification, because it allows you to focus a little bit more and creates a little bit of space. So, you can individualize and focus on those aspects of training that interest you, where did that was that something you realized yourself something that you took from another person because again, this is not the way most schools from my vantage are operated.
Michael Celona:
My instructor, his name is Grandmaster Young Kwon. And he originally came up in the [00:33:10-00:33-13]. So, he had learned all the traditional forms, such as I did when I was part of the [00:33:23-00:33:24], and one of the things that he wanted to create was a system of forms that kept the traditional mindset, and the traditional way of doing things, but also a dynamic, you know, kind of free-flowing kind of how can I explain almost a modern, traditional form. So, over the last 30, some years, almost 40 years, he created the system that we do today based on the movements that are in the older forms. So, for example, when you watch our first three forms, you'll see elements of, you know, the [00:34:19-00:34:20] forms, or the Pyongan forms, you know, or Basye, like, you'll see, oh, that move is borrowed from that form. And that move is barred from that form. So, he took the things that he felt were, you know, the signature of each of those old forms and created something that was a little more modern, both from a both from a practical sense. So, he didn't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater kind of thing. He didn't want to go in that direction, and then he also didn't want to go strictly to like the ex-MMA style. We're going to add flips in this, which is there's nothing wrong with that. And there's a certain high degree of athleticism, for somebody that's into that kind of thing. But he wanted to create a modern version of the traditional forms that somebody could go to an open tournament, and compete with and do well. But yet still keep that traditional kind of look to it. If that makes any sense. So, our system is kind of like a mix of like that traditional [0035:45-00:35:46] Taekwondo. So that's kind of like where the pace in what we do kind of came from.
Jeremy Lesniak:
The word coming to mind is evolution, we have a very difficult time as traditional martial artists here in modern times, it's 2021, we're recording this, to look at what was and find ways to allow things to modernize without becoming completely different. Yes, you know, it's almost like we could say, okay, we can do like they did 1920, or 1950, or 1960, or whatever the genesis of what you're doing is for, we can throw all of that out, we can do MMA, right. And for most people, there doesn't seem to be anything in the middle, and I see all kinds of gray area there. And it sounds like you and your organization, you've found some gray area.
Michael Celona:
Yes, and I'm very thankful for that, you know, that my master had that, that foresight to kind of, to kind of go in that route. And when you think about it. You know, the pioneers of all of the traditional styles, they all did that. And it's like, at some point in time, and the early 1900s, you know, it was like, okay, now nothing's allowed to change forever, until the end of time. And they never said that, right. And they really came after them said that, you know, we can't change that. When you look at all the old masters, they all cross trained, and they all borrowed from this person, and they all borrowed from that person, and, you know, change this here and change that there. And when you look at, you know, I'm kind of jumping around a little bit, but when certain masters taught a certain form to a student, 20/30 years later, they taught the same form to a different student, and they didn't look the same. It's like, well, because their karate has evolved, it's changed with the times, and I think Gichin Funakoshi, said that himself, you know, the world changes, and karate must change, also. And I think so many people are, you know, they're so willing to call somebody a heretic, if you're changing something, you know, and I think that's not. I think that's not how we grow and how we improve as a martial arts community. And getting back to my organization. Our master wanted to, you know, we have five forms up until first degree black belt, and then we have a form, for first degree, a form for second degree and a form for third degree, he wanted to create for years and wanted to create, like a master level forum for forethought and hire. And he said, he couldn't decide on anything, and he was working on something for years, until finally, and this was number of years ago, now that he had this conversation with myself and the other masters of our organization. He says, I could never fully decide on what to do with the master level form. So, all of us masters were charged with creating, creating our own, he would call it, you know, the ninth form. So, the Masters all have a nice form, but he said, I'm not interested in you. Just showing me something that I dictated to you, but show me what you've learned, and show me what you've gained, and create a form that fits your personality and the things that like best from our system. And I thought that was really special and different. Because, you know, to the best of my knowledge, you know, nobody does that now.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I very, very few I've bumped into some schools, I'm thinking of one in particular that they do that and I I really like it and what I, it's a school that I'm close enough with the actually train there. And I hear the way people talk about it, it's, there's something incredibly personal not only in the practice in the application of the movements, but in the decisions that go into what movements go where, how, etc, in a way that if you've spent time teaching, that's exactly what you want your students to do. Yes, and it's almost like this shortcut, and, and I love that you're doing How long have you guys been doing this.
Michael Celona:
Ah, I want to say maybe 2000. And maybe 14 1415 was when our, our master charged us with that, you know, come up, come up with your own form. And so for myself, you know, I, you know, I cut to work on a great away, and, you know, some of the, some of the other masters kind of tease me a little bit, because I made my form too long. It's like, I've been working on it for so long. And, you know, I didn't, I didn't want to cut anything out. But, you know, I feel like, as an outsider, and I can say this as an outsider, because when I watch the other masters perform their form, you know, it's like seeing something new every time, you know, and it's not just, it's not just, you know, regurgitating the same stuff, you know, back to each other. But it's like, okay, here's what my ninth form looks like, I want to see what your ninth form looks like. And I said, Well, I really like what you did there, I might put that somewhere in mind, you know, and it becomes kind of like this, you know, this, this, this relationship. We're all feeding and learning and growing from one another. And I think, you know, I'm very happy that that our Grandmaster had, you know, put that task to us.
Jeremy Lesniak:
So, it's allowed to change too. And I love that. I love you know, why I love that so much, is, it's almost like a, like a fingerprint. It's a unique representation of who you are as a martial artist at that moment in time. Yes. Because I can imagine, we, you've been training long enough, I have, I'm sure. Many of the folks listening have been training long enough, that you have those epiphany moments where you go, and everything changes. Most of us don't have too many of them. But you know, maybe once a decade, you'll bump into some new bit of information that just makes you go, Oh, and I can imagine that that form may change dramatically or even be thrown out completely through one of those epiphanies because your approach to martial arts who you are as a martial artist, also changes in those moments?
Michael Celona:
Yes. And I think being willing to change is something that, that, sadly, so many, maybe not so much now with how information is so readily available now. But, you know, I think some people might still be stuck in that mindset that they're afraid to change, or that they are somehow betraying somebody or betraying the old masters if they if they change anything, and I think, you know, I think being able to change and, and grow is something so very important. I mean, you look at and I believe it was, might have been Ian Abernethy, who had mentioned this, he's like, if you know, if something happens in the UFC where somebody starts employing a new technique that ends up working really well. Well, then all of the other MMA fighters start training that they started trading, because it's like, if it works, and it's good, then why not try that? why not add that in? And I think that's something that traditional martial artists can learn from the MMA community.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah, I agree. I think the problem with change or the problem with remaining, not changing, comes down to the reason, are you staying where you are doing what you've always done? Because you're afraid of trying other things progressing, possibly having an epiphany that makes you go. I could have been doing this differently for the last however many years and it would have served me better for what I wanted. And so resistant to that progress, or are you changing because something about what you're doing is really hard? This form is really hard. So, we're not going to do it anymore. You know, I don't like point sparring. So, we're just going to know do it anymore at our school. Right? And you see things like that. Yeah. And, you know, we talked about it earlier, the stuff that you have a difficult time with. That's, I think that's where the progress is. So how do you how do you balance that, you know, we've talked a lot about the freedom that you and your organization have to pursue things that are of interest, I make sure that people are not dodging the stuff that maybe they need more time on.
Michael Celona:
I think, personally, I think somebody needs to spend enough time, you know, in the box, so to speak, you know, doing things by the book by the numbers. So that they can create kind of like, what I think it was actually. Mr. Miyagi, talked about creating that strong route. You know, having that good, solid base, not being somebody that's going to practice something for four months, and then say, “Okay, I want to try this, and then practice for another six months” and say, “okay, that's not working, let me try this”. I think having the knowledge and the wisdom to fully, or at least, mostly understand something, you know, as much as you can, so that you can make almost like an educated guess on “Okay, maybe we should explore this”. And I think that comes down to experience, I think would I put a belt rank on that? Probably not? Because I think we could probably both agree that different ranks hold different value across different artsy different associations. So, I think it's tough to say, but I think when somebody fully grasps a certain set of concepts or a certain way of doing things, then they can kind of branch out and see how they might change this or how they might change that. So that they can kind of understand the value in what the old thing was, so that they understand, okay, you know, let's hold on to this a little bit longer, or let's hold on to this element or that element, because it has served us well to a certain point, and having that wisdom to say, maybe we can sprinkle this in or sprinkle that in and see how that serves us and be willing to understand or to admit that okay, maybe that route was a mistake. You know, we tried doing this and it didn't work for us. You know, what we were doing was the right path. And I think that's an experience thing, personally.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I agree and I found that quote, and you're right, it's from, I don't know which Karate Kid but you know, it's attributed here. I pulled it up quickly on my phone to Mr. Miyagi. Ah, only root karate come from Yagi just like bonsai choose own way grow because root is strong. You choose own way do karate. Same reason.
Michael Celona:
That's awesome. That's awesome. So much knowledge is so good. There's so good that they have no business being so good, but there's so good.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Oh, it's, you know, it's amazing that the character that influenced probably, probably second only to Bruce Lee. You know, [00:48:49-00:48:50] was not a martial artist, they had more impact on martial arts and anybody but Bruce Lee, I think, and how crazy is that? You know, you were able to remember a quote pretty close that you used as a reference almost as justification to, because despite being the poor grammar, it's really articulate, right. It's a wonderful image that I think we can all understand. By having a good understanding of our past our history, our foundation, our roots. It gives us the freedom to individualize, differentiate, branch out.
Michael Celona:
It's like the concept of believe it's Shu Hari, the concept of I it's funny, like, all these years. I couldn't place in her like how I wanted to explain this concept and then it was either Jesse and Cam, or it was somebody else. I want to say it was Jesse and Cam. The idea of developing that strong route Shu Hari, I think in Korean, it's something else.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I pulled it up, I found it. I always record with my phone handy. Listeners, you may not know that, but a lot of times that I'll come up with, you know, oh, I think that movie was in such here and I'm like, yeah, that was in 1974. You may think that I'm just as complete wealth of martial arts knowledge. And I know some stuff. But quite often, it's Google helping me out in the middle of the show. Yeah. And so, Shu Hari are three stages of development. In Shu, we repeat the forums and discipline ourselves. This is from Wikipedia, so that our bodies absorb the forms that our forebears created, we remain faithful to these forms of no deviation. And I'm not going to keep reading because as it is, YouTube's probably already going to pull us down for me reading that little bit. Shu Hari, you can find it if you want to go deeper. But please continue.
Michael Celona:
Yeah, and we have the, on our website, we have the Korean translation for it, because, you know, we're Korean style. But you know, that concept of the learning stage. And then there's the, I guess you could say, like the study stage where you're fully dissecting the things that you've learned, and then finally, you know, learning to break the rules or break the tradition so that you can transcend it, and move beyond it. You know, and I think for years before I heard of that phrase, I couldn't put it into words. Thankfully, people that are more articulate than me, I'm kind of put that out there. But it gets back to the Miyagi thing. Although he was a fictional character. It's kind of like that idea and his saying was so profound. So, we tried to abide by that and the way that we do things, even how we practice it at my studio, and you know, on that micro kind of level. We have our required material that our association has agreed to practice. And then we have the little things that we sprinkle in for our own flavor, so to speak. So, being that our style is called [00:52:34-00:52:35], or the martial art way of certain victory. Even though we all practice the same style, my flavor might be a little different than the one of my colleagues in my organization. Somebody else in my organization, they might sprinkle self-defense techniques that they get out of Krav Maga, or Filipino stick fighting or something like that, because that is their tastes, that's what they are, they're drawn to. Whereas for us, you know, at my studio, we incorporate, a little bit of [00:53:18-00:53:19] and Brazilian jujitsu because those are some of the other things that I've been working on. So, kind of blending it in, we have our roots style, and our forms and our things that we do, and then adding in our own little flavor and being that I have a big interest in this study of Bunkai, or been as we call it in Korean, that's kind of like my element that I add for my students, like, let's explore the meaning that we can get from our forums. So that we're not just treating this as a solo exercise or a competition type of thing where you're going to go out and perform, which is great. And, you know, and I think there's certainly value to doing that. But I think having that deeper meaning and that deeper understanding is one of the reasons why I think we keep students longer getting back to our original thing that we started talking about keeping people interested, especially through the years where they typically kind of trail off a little bit so that's one of the things that at least I hope that I can contribute to the to the martial arts. Nice.
Jeremy Lesniak:
If people want to find you, website, social media, you guys got any of that stuff. We've talked about some cool things and I can imagine there are people who might want to pay attention to what you're putting out.
Michael Celona:
Yes. Our schools Facebook page is Revolution Martial Arts Institute. That's all. You know, that's all one word, facebook.com/revolutionmartialartsinstitute. Our website is revolutionmartialartsinstitute.com. But mostly, the videos that I've been putting up is on YouTube youtube.com/mastermcelona. And in addition to, you know, the class archives that we're putting out there for our current members to follow along the ones that are training remotely, I tried to put up training tips and Bunkai stuff for our members to dive a little dive a little deeper. Nice, nice.
Jeremy Lesniak:
It sounds like the application, you know, we didn't get into that. You'd sent over some notes on rather we'd sent you questions and you'd respond. And I was a little surprised that we didn't get into application Bunkai. But hey, until towards the end here. So, I want to make sure we get a little bit of time talking about that, because it's subject. I'm really interested in, yes. You know, again, like just about anything, you end up with these polar opposites in martial arts, and for many people, I think, a refusal to acknowledge the gray the space in between, and I suspect that you and I are on the same page on a lot of things. You've got folks who say, if it is not directly applicable, as it is trained, you shouldn't do it, because it's a waste of time. And then you've got folks on the other side who say just let people figure out what works for them, and they'll be fine. And then I think you got a lot of room in the middle, and I'm in the middle. Yeah, honestly, I tend towards the let people figure it out for themselves. But I think there's some value in having some application and as an instructor, some structured application, training, forms and everything else. So why don't you talk about what that means to you what that looks like, in your training and in your school.
Michael Celona:
So, I guess for the past, I don't know, almost 10 years now, I kind of been traveling down this rabbit hole for Bunkai because I felt like I was previously an avid competitor, you know, in forms and weapons and sparring, and I did the typical karate thing, and I forget who it was, but when I turned 30, I realized that there's going to come a time where I'm not going to be doing tournaments quite so much. And that was something that I really enjoyed doing. I wanted to explore the practical side or what all of these strange dance-like movements, you know, what they actually mean, or what was intended by them. So, like I said, over the past 10 years I've been doing that and I kind of looked into Jiu jitsu and the art of attacking vital points and things like that, I kind of went down that rabbit hole. But I'd say in the last few years, I stumbled upon some of the work of Sensei Ian Abernethy, and it kind of blew my mind. As far as you know, there's this whole other way of looking at the way that the movements are done. Whereas blocks are not really blocking, you know, punches aren't necessarily punching, and the stances aren't used in the way that that people would commonly think. And it kind of opened my eyes a little bit. And, you know, and I just wanted to dig deeper. So, for me, in the last few years, I've been exploring ways to bring some of this study to my students, specifically my adult students and higher ranking. Teenage kid, students, um, you know, in finding safe ways to practice them and practice them in a practical manner. And we actually had the good opportunity to post in Abernethy at my studio, I want to say it was back in 2016. Now, and, you know, my students are still talking about it, and how much fun they had and how they really learned. So, I've kind of been going down that that rabbit hole. Studying Brazilian jujitsu has helped as well, because it's funny, like, times where I feel like, I'm not progressing in BJJ, until somebody shows me a way that I need to do a certain move. And I make that connection, like, oh, that's like how you hold your hands for, you know, like an augmented block, or, you know, a knife hand block, or if you were to take the partner away, and kind of green screen them out and just look at the position that you're in, and stand it up on its side, it looks like a form. So, it has helped my BJJ when I can make those kinds of connections. But it is also made my karate better, as well because then I have a better and a deeper understanding. For what this move that for the past 30 some years I didn't understand, you know, it's just a move that we didn't form. But now, it has this whole other meaning. And it's really caused me to fall in love with forms practice again, you know, nothing ever really lost my love for forms practice. But, you know, it's really...
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah, I get it, I completely understand what you're saying. It opens up another lens onto all this experience that you've had. And it's kind of one of those epiphanies that we were talking about this idea that you've done all these things, and you can use them in so many different ways. And I think that combination of that attitude, that approach, coupled with the kind of a reductionist mindset of structured forms, means you get the opportunity to go deeper, if all you ever do is your first form. Let's say you just do that forever. At some point, one of two things is going to happen, you're going to stop doing it and quit. Or you're going to find some really interesting creative ways to dig into that form. And to apply those techniques.
Michael Celona:
Yes, and I'm currently experiencing that right now. So, as I mentioned before, we have five forms, leading up to black belt. So, in the past, maybe five or six years, I'm still only on those first five forms, as far as digging out the Bunkai drills. And like, you know, when I practice the higher-level forms, I'm like, “Oh, I just really got like, vision of what this move can be”. But I've been like, and this is going to sound really nerdy, I've been saving myself. For those forms. When I get to them...
Jeremy Lesniak:
I love it.
Michael Celona:
You know, I'm like, “Oh, I don't want to break my focus, or I don't want to break my concentration, and start getting into like, the Bunkai of like, higher level forms, because I'm still working on forms one through five. And every day I come up with something that I'm like, I can, you know, I'm doing a low block in front stance, and then a stepping in punch, but I'm going to do it like this against a part instead of how I did it before. And it's fun. And whenever I bring it up to my students, they always look at me, like, I have six heads, because they don't, they're not seeing it the way that I see it. So, it's a fun, but yet challenging, you know, discovery and I have two students that are starting to see and recognize it. You know, and we had those kinds of shared epiphanies recently and that was like the happiest thing that like you're getting. Now you're starting to see what I see. And I think that comes from doing a form so many times where you kind of reach that level of motion, where you don't have to think about what the next move is. So therefore, you can address what might be happening in this in this imaginary battle.
Jeremy Lesniak:
The best drill I know, for opening that up, and I was pretty lucky that I was exposed to this drill really young. I think I was probably 20 before I realized there were schools that taught a single understanding of application within forms, when you do this, you are blocking this technique, I didn't realize that was a thing some schools did. And so there certainly are. So, for some of you out there, this may not apply. But I wouldn't surprise me if this is something you already do. We would kind of do almost a reverse of what many would do, someone would be in the middle, and they would do the form pretty much as is just really slowly. And the other people in the class there or in the group, their responsibility was to present an attack that that person could reasonably defend and counter with that sequence. Those two or three movements, so that people on the outside, they're like, I don't want to punch, every single time I was getting boring. What happens if I throw a front kick here? What happens if I throw a spinning back kick here, and so you end up with a lot of interesting likes, “oh, and that would never work”. And but you do it again. And you do it again. And you do it again. And you end up seeing this block can be a block here can be a block here, it could be a block here, and it starts opening myself.
Michael Celona:
So much fun. So much fun. And it's like, you know, I have this thing that I've been doing for all these years, and it's always providing me with something new. It's always providing me with like I never thought of it like this. I never thought of it like that. And yeah, when I'm doing the solo version, on the form by myself, when I'm getting my reps in, it's the same. But, you know, the meanings are constantly changing, you know, and it's like, wow, I'll be lying in bed at night getting ready to fall asleep. And I'll think of something else, and I can't wait to get in tomorrow and try it and see if it's legit or not. You know, so it's fun. It's a fun, kind of challenging, but yet equally frustrating thing sometimes, especially when I know the answer to this particular by rating my reach, or if it's like, I know that this move can be done like a choke, but I can't quite get how and that is my Jiu jitsu instructor, he chokes me. And it's like, okay, how did you do that?
Jeremy Lesniak:
And then once you come to you say, okay, can someone take a picture of that? So? Yes, I love it. This has been great. A lot of fun. So, we're going to end in, what advice would you offer up as your kind of final words today, for the people that are listening?
Michael Celona:
I think my advice to, if you're a beginner, or intermediate belt rank, my advice would be to keep plugging away the you know, the frustration that somebody might feel when they can't get through a certain thing, or when they finally get to like, some of them more difficult belt ranks. I think for some people can be discouraging. So, my advice would be to keep plugging away. Because in martial arts training, there are certainly lots of ups and downs and plateaus and be willing to enjoy the ride. And be happy, should I say, the accepting of the journey. I view training when somebody is from white belt to black belt, I liken it to learning your ABCs you know, after you learn the first 26 letters of the alphabet, you know, if you were to achieve your black belt, then it's not like, okay, you're going to learn, you know, letters 27 through 50. But you learn how to grow and use those letters put together simple words and then maybe second-degree black belt might be learning to put together simple phrases, whereas higher belt ranks, you're learning how to take those words and those phrases and craft chapters and novels and things like that. So, my advice would be that you can never be bored. You can never be bored with training if you have the right instructor and somebody to put you on the right path to you know, what you want to accomplish and what you want to become. So, I would say for somebody to have a little bit of patience and enjoy the ride.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Did you enjoy that? I did. I had a great time. I always have a great time. And that's the beauty of the show. It's the beauty, the format is that we get to hear so many different things about the guest and their journey, that it's pretty rare. In fact, I would say never least for me, I can't speak for all of you listening. But I never come away from an episode, not having learned something not feeling pumped about training, not feeling some really positive value in the story that I just heard. So, thank you, Sir, for coming on the show. Thanks for sharing. Thanks for being such a great guest. And I hope we get to talk again, to those of you listening out there. If you're still with me, I hope you are. Go to whistlekickmartialartsradio.com. Go look at the photos from this episode, look at the transcripts, look at the links in the social media and the videos and all the other things that we do to round out your experience. For the guests' interview, as well as the topic episodes, we bring you as much context as we can, because there's a lot of value in here, remember, what's the goal? Connect, educate, entertain, we're doing everything we can to check all three of those boxes every time we do a show. And if that means something to you, if you want to support us, well, we've got the Patreon. We've got a growing list of books. In fact, we've launched what two more in the last week, go over to Amazon and search for whistlekick and see what I'm talking about. But you could also leave a review on iTunes or Spotify or Stitcher or Google or Facebook, or tell people what's going on, or grab something at whistlekick.com or support the Patreon, patreon.com/whistle kick. And, you know, did you know that we made a fight conditioning program? It leverages all the things that you might expect for goals. That's a terrible sentence, Jeremy, I'm not even going to it. It takes all the things that you would expect someone would need to prepare for an intense cardiovascular martial arts event, whether that's competition, or training, testing, whatever it is, but it's done in a way that is going to get you maximal results with minimal input. If you want to just go out there and run, you may or may not get there. In fact, you're probably not going to get there, you're not going to get the results that you need. Why? Because the demands on the body are dramatically different. And we explain all that. So go to whistlekick.com, sorry, whistlekickprograms.com. I'm watching this and I'm going to leave it in because I want to be authentic. I want you guys to know this is how this goes sometimes. Whistlekickprograms.com, find the fight conditioning program, check it out, understand what we've done, there's nothing else out there like it. And this is what we're trying to do. We're trying to bring you these programs that address the needs of martial artists from a martial arts perspective, but with scientific research, because honestly, nobody else's so maybe this is our niche. Maybe this is the thing that we can do better than anybody else. We're trying. We're looking for opportunities to serve you if you have suggestions, so that and guest suggestions topic suggestions, feedback of any kind, let me know Jeremy@whistlekick.com. Don't forget our social medias @whistlekick everywhere you might think of. And that's all I have for you now until next time, train hard, smile and have a great day.