Episode 601 - Martial Journal Announcement

In this episode, Jeremy and Andrew talk about a special Martial Journal Announcement with Justin Lee Ford.

Martial Journal Announcement - Episode 601

We have an offer that you can’t refuse. Well, sort of. Martial Journal and whistlekick Martial Arts Radio have something up their sleeves and it’s going to interest you both listeners and readers of Martial Arts content. In this episode, Jeremy and Andrew talk about a special Martial Journal Announcement with Justin Lee Ford. Listen to find out more!

Show Transcript

You can read the transcript below.

Jeremy Lesniak:

Hey, what's happening everybody Jeremy from whistle kick here, joined by Andrew Adams as I often 00:12 hey Andrew, and good morning, and a face that some of you out there might recognize a voice you might recognize if you pay attention to whistle kick stuff. I got Justin Lee forward with me today with us today, and we're going to be talking about an interesting aspect of the whistle kick, I never quite know what to call the broad umbrella the whistle kick umbrella, I guess we'll call it I was going to call it universe but that, that feels a little self-aggrandizing, and I don't want to do that, but we're going to talk about martial journal, and specifically, we're going to talk about the fact that we're doing something that people are already saying is dumb. And guess what, it's not for you, it's the fact that Marshall journal is coming out with a print edition. That's right, print is not dead. So, Andrew, Justin, thanks for joining us.

Justin Lee Ford:
Happy to be here.

Andrew Adams:

Yeah, great to have you on Justin,
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah So Justin, of course, is the editor in chief of martial journal in its various forms, both of them. The print and the digital, and, of course, Andrew comes on and helps me out, do the thing that we do when in talk. This is the first time we've collaborated on kind of an interview sort of thing, isn't?

Andrew Adams:
Yeah, that's true. The only three person episode that you and I have done together was with Sergeant Hamilton.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah, which really was more of us just kind of going hey, we'll let you talk.
Andrew Adams:
Wow that's a lot to think about.

Jeremy Lesniak:
Oh yeah that was a good episode. So I don't know where we're gonna start maybe for listeners out there or viewers, because this one we're doing video, who may not know what martial journal is just you wanna, you want to tell everybody what martial journal is?
Justin Lee Ford:
Oh absolutely. So, I will start off with simple phrase, we are a as of right now a website that's transitioning to also include magazine print edition 02:18 and we're all about building bridges rather than walls in the world of martial arts. So, we have personal essays from martial artists on their own stories of training or impress the teacher or owning a school. We've got many book reviews and movie reviews of stuff within martial arts and genre, and just anything in the world of martial arts, we're talking about that we're promoting and speaking on it again building those bridges rather than the walls between the martial arts, summed up in that. 

Jeremy Lesniak:
That's it, and there are a couple things that are really important to know is, I think for listeners and viewers, is that 100% of what's involved in maritaljournal.com is volunteer. If you look, you can look very closely, I don't think you'll be able to find any direct references to whistle kick we've done that intentionally because I had this vision in the early days, that this a site like this needed to exist, and the early collaborators on this were my friends Daniel Hearts and Jared Wilson, and we talked about what this might look like and we got it rolling and Justin when did you come in? I don't, you've been around so I don't remember when it happened.
Justin Lee Ford:
I had to be about two or three years ago from, think about that correctly, my Kung Fu teacher actually ran a podcast and you heard about whistle kick and martial journal, and when you heard how things were going with Martin Jones like listen, you've been writing on my website you've been writing for a couple of publications, you got to do this. And so I listened to my teacher and hopped on board. 

Jeremy Lesniak:
Good. Well I'm glad you did. Shout out to your instructor there what's his name?
Justin Lee Ford:
Craig, he's teaching Decatur, Georgia.
Jeremy Lesniak:
All right. Thank you, Craig for sending us this this wonderful guy who has taken so much work off my plate. Martial journals been a lot of fun, because we've done some really cool stuff with very little, it's just been, it's been a labor of love people talk about that, they, you know, it's all volunteered with and inevitably that ends up being like one person doing all the work and it's not one person there are a bunch of people doing the work and we've had writing from. Have we cracked the 100% mark, it's got to be close, I believe, 100 different people contributing to this over the last few years and know not everybody's writing dozens of articles, but some people have. And, you know, I'm not embarrassed to say, the, the goal of martial journal, was that it would collect people who wanted to write about martial arts, and that their personal brands would take off. Martial journal attracts more attention by website view count than anything else was looking at us.
Andrew Adams:
And do you accept submissions from anyone? Or do you only have people you specifically accept submissions for martial journal for?
Justin Lee Ford:
So if anyone's interested in writing for us, absolutely they can contact me. My email is Justin@martialjournal.com, and if anyone's interested whether they've written before for martial art publication or any other publication or not, by all means just reach out if they seem like they have a good story to tell, or if they seem like a good character. Right, a good dagger than that lovable martial art a-hole. Then, we'll be happy to have them right, we'll be able to help spread their words.
Jeremy Lesniak:
We've had a lot of different stuff like my most recent piece was on, I think it was five, you know, five types of martial artists to avoid, and there needs to be a part two because I posted it and a bunch of people said what about this type, so it kind of the up these cliché martial arts jerks. And that was my latest piece I don't write super often, I've got a lot of other stuff going on and that's okay. You know we've got people who've come in and they had one thing that they really wanted to contribute like we had a reader, write to me and say, you know, my I think it was my daughter, notice there wasn't any kids content. Yes, but she really wanted to draw a picture for martial journal can. Can we do that and was like, sure, you know, that's the beauty of it online platform is there's no space limitations, we're just limited by time. 

Justin Lee Ford:

Exactly.
Jeremy Lesniak:
You read some stuff on there too, right. 
Justin Lee Ford:
Yes, sir. Absolutely. A couple different things from book reviews that a lot of work with Title publications, and just some personal essays as well. Talking about traditional martial arts and how it relates to modern martial arts, some of the similarities and perhaps differences for everyone.07:01 
Jeremy Lesniak:
There is and that's the goal, and that's you know that's what we're working on so people want to contribute by all means, please do.
Andrew Adams:
And there's a huge, if I'd say, I looked through, I mean I looked through every once in a while and there's a breadth of articles on all sorts of topics which is really amazing. 

Justin Lee Ford:
Absolutely.
Jeremy Lesniak:
That was one of the goals. 

Justin Lee Ford:

That is one of the goals and it's only going to grow more, we're going to get to the point where there's posts coming out every single day this is exponential growth that's happening every single week with Marshall Johnson, so it's going to continue to grow, I'm sure we'll talk about some of those success paths in a second.
Jeremy Lesniak:
So let's talk print, right, I set it up at the beginning, print is not dead. Why would we go through this, why would we endure this because we've been working on this for a while, when every magazine on the planet seems to be going digital shutting down, etc. You know, everybody knows I'm insane and I'm willing to throw crazy amounts of time and whatever money I can find at a project, but are you also that crazy?
Justin Lee Ford:
Short answer is yes, there is an element of people believe this is dead and you and I both know prints not dead, there's still validity in it. There's this element of me that's just that stubborn person going, you're gonna see this is actually a thing. But also, just thinking about what kind of opportunity that presents to the people that have been with us for a long time. Right. And we've had a lot of dedicated writers and also editors that have been helping with us, and everything we've been doing so much. 

So, in some ways it's a reward for them, and rewards the readership of, hey, you've been with us, you've been supporting us, guess what, now we're making this a print magazine. Now, this is continued growth that we're showcasing to you and you're a part of this.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah. Now I know that when we started talking about this. We started from the concept of what can we do that is different, and we just started stacking, a list of things, what can we do that flies in the face of the traditional print industry. And you know why don't you run through some of those things and, you know, Andrew, I'm kind of looking for you to be the one on the outside here so if we gloss over something, or if you want, Justin unpack something a little bit deeper, you know please jump in because you know I've been in on this so sometimes you know you can't see the forest for the trees so I'm looking up that outside perspective.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah, I'd be happy to because for the listeners out there. I know nearly nothing about the print magazine that's coming out. In fact, truth be told, I was not positive that's what this is gonna be about until about 30 We've been recording for about 10 minutes so about 12 minutes ago I realized, Oh, we're gonna be talking about a print review, so I will be happy to intercept requests.

Jeremy Lesniak:
That's awesome.

Justin Lee Ford:
That's perfect. All right, well let's go over a couple of differences. For starters, and I think this is one of the biggest things, we're focusing almost 100% on the readers, and the readership. Right. It's about bringing value to them. We are not trying to stuff a bunch of advertisements in hidden areas and this is 100%. What can we bring as value to the readers? It's a free publication with a limited run, we're looking at about 100 issues we'll be giving that we'll be giving out in the first run. If you look at the front cover, we're all about the aesthetic. Right. We're not just gonna put some stock image cover or anything on there. This is well designed cover 11:02 oh you bring it up?
Jeremy Lesniak:
11:05 So if you're watching you can kind of see like, 11:10 

Justin Lee Ford:
This is the kind of thing, you can 11:12 

Jeremy Lesniak:
Andrew, what does this look like to you? What does this remind you of?

Andrew Adams:
It reminds me of a cartoon, okay. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

To say it another way?
Andrew Adams:
Manga?
Jeremy Lesniak:
Manga comic book.
Justin Lee Ford:
Yeah, there we go. 
Andrew Adams:
Which answers one of my questions which was what style of magazine flat you know size like what are we looking for we go in full color we go 11:40 
Jeremy Lesniak:
I don't have a color printer. And so when we do these mock ups they come out, black and white for me.  Yes, original artwork on every cover. The cover will be artwork.
Andrew Adams:
Which leads to my first question which is magazine suggests regular occurrence. So is this something that will be coming out ambitiously every day, doubtful, every week, every month, once a year quarterly. I'm curious how often we will be able to see these and get our hands on the magazine.
Justin Lee Ford:
So we're gonna start off with quarterly enforce as success builds we can bring it in front of readers more regularly, but again the beginning, we're looking at quarterly.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And if you're just listening, if you're not watching you may have not realized that this is a half-page right it's eight and a half by five and a half, you know it is not, this is an old test, this is definitely not going on the first one. That was just a random image I grabbed off the internet as part of a mock up. 
And as we've put this together, you know, so the size, saves money. Besides, it saves money in shipping and in printing. 

And you know one of the things you mentioned, Justin was about not trying to stuff ads into this we have a hard limit of 20% of the space will be advertised. We have committed to that because when we look at, you know, we, and it's not just martial, there are some martial arts magazines, but it just any magazine, you grab any magazine even off the newsstand and you just paid, you know, the only time I buy magazines when I'm flying and I haven't flown anywhere in over a year so I'm bought magazines in a while. But the last time I bought a magazine, doesn't matter what it is, it can be Rollingstone, it could be Men's health. It's all ads, it's like 30-40% ads, and even the content, feels like it's ads. It drives me nuts. And so as we were back together, what are we going to do different that was one of the big things that we talked about.

Justin Lee Ford:
Absolutely. Think about what that does to value as well because if a magazine is all ads, well then the readers not necessarily interested in anymore. They're not going to look at this closely, and then your ads aren't worth that much anymore because the readers don't really care. Right. By giving only so much room for advertisements, we're ensuring that every single advertisement, has to be good quality, because there's only so much space, you got to make sure that it's actually used up well. And, too, well, readers are actually paying attention now your ads are gonna get noticed, they're in front of people that are gonna be reading this multiple times this collectible type of publication.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And we're not just leaving that to chance, are we? We are reinforcing that and one of the core aspects that we haven't talked about yet is that, yeah, there's the print edition which the debut issue will be 100 copies, so think of it as collectible, rather than commodity. And there's a digital version that you know everybody can get. But, of course, people are going to want to get the printed copy, so we have built a method that helps them get the print copy, they can move up as we grow and release more, you know, hopefully we'll go from you know 100 to 200. Who knows how many as the count goes up, we can raise ad prices, you know, not number of ads but the price of the ads because they're dirt cheap and the first one, because they can be. And the very same process that helps you move from the digital version of the magazine to the print version is also the same one that I don't want to say guarantees ads are going to be received differently, but really helps it, so just want to talk about that, because I'm pumped about this part.
Justin Lee Ford:
Yes, alright so let me backtrack. First a little bit here. Okay, all right. For the readers that do want to get in on this there's a email form signup form on Marshall journal so that you can drop down your email, your information so that we can keep in contact and let you be the first to get this issue. Again, you guys are gonna be parsed something really amazing. It's already amazing, it's only even more.
Jeremy Lesniak:
It's super cool, there's so much, and this is the thing about anything that's in physical form is you don't get to engage with it until it's done right, it's not like martialjournal.com where we're just rolling out articles or, you know, when we do podcast episodes here as one is done, it goes out. Unlike, I don't know like a TV show or a movie where you got to wait, you know, with the whole thing it's finished and then it gets released.
Justin Lee Ford:
Exactly. I mean there's so much power to this, and like we said prints not dead. Now there's a couple magazines already still going on, going strong, as also martial art magazines but then people are still paying for subscription based things, their subscription boxes for produce or nerd stuff, which I love, and recurring subscriptions, that's still a viable way, so it's just about bringing good value and that's what we're doing. This evergreen content.

Jeremy Lesniak:
So you didn't you didn't answer the question though.
Justin Lee Ford:
17:05 

Andrew Adams:
I'm glad you got, I was about to say this 17:12 
Justin Lee Ford:
Let's bring it back.

Jeremy Lesniak:
Can you imagine what our meetings are like? Thursday morning meetings and it's, you know, it's scheduled for 30 minutes it's usually an hour and it's 45 minutes of us getting really excited. And then, ah, well you got to get worked on. Yeah, let's talk about we have to get done.
Justin Lee Ford:
So let's bring that back, ask the question when we're done.
Jeremy Lesniak:
By what process do people get the option to move from digital to print, and how is that related to us making sure that advertisers get more value out of their ads?
Justin Lee Ford:
So one of the biggest things that we're trying on the front is there's going to be a poll thing they can submit in, and it, you vote, you vote on the best piece of content, the best ad. And when you have to, when you vote on those kinds of things that means you're paying attention to those kinds of things. So again, just increases value.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Now, let me unpack that a little bit more. So let's say I, you know, I don't get in on the first 100, or the first issue and I want to get it for the second issue. I go to a website that will be referenced in the magazine and I fill out this form that says hey, I want to get the print edition. 

And here's my address and by the way if you get the print edition, you still have to do this to get this, keep your spot on the list. This is a limited release every issue will always be a limited really, you're never going to put out so many of these that people don't want to get them. 

Okay, so I go to either maintain my place on the list, or to get onto the list, which will be a waiting list, and I'm trying to move up. And I'm voting for, what was the best article, as one piece of written content. The best piece of visual content so photo, drawing, whatever, and the best advertising. Now the best con, the best pieces of content, graphic and text, those contributors, get a bonus.

Yes, everybody involved in this will be paid on like martialjournal.com where, you know, we've built this really complex model on how much we can afford to pay and it's not a lot to start but it's something, but then advertisers get free advertising in future issues. 

So the idea is that this is further incentive for them to make things as great as it can be, because we're talking about substantial bonuses, the bonus on writing I think as we've got it laid out now is roughly like 12x, what they're getting paid for a 250 word article right so it's real, it's and it's even it's more than, 1000 word article. 

So if you're if that gives you the incentive to go back and do another edit. Another hour into it, boom, there you go, but then the advertisers the expectation over time is that they're going to get creative. Just dad's quote unquote ads, it's going to be real content. You know, think about like the Superbowl, why do most of us turn into the Superbowl? It's not the game, it's the ads, why the ads? Because they're great ads, and that's what we're trying to incentivize.

Andrew Adams:
That's an incredibly interesting way of looking at it and not something that I am likely the listeners and viewers will have ever heard before that, you know, as an advertiser, if you're putting up the same ad, every single week. I mean, this will be a weekly publication but if it's always the same. You're gonna saturate your listeners, viewers, and they're not going to find it as appealing so that's really cool if I could unpack what one question. You mentioned, Jeremy how, you know, in the first issue, there will be a form that you know website you can go to, but let's say if you're only going to be releasing 100 of these first issues. Let's say there's, you know 25 gazillion people listening to his podcast right now. How would they get in on making sure they're one of the first 100?

Jeremy Lesniak:
martialjournal.com, sign up for the email list that we've never used. And we're gonna reach out when it's time. We're gonna reach out to everyone and say hey, the first 100 people to go here and fill out their mailing address in this probably Google form or however we're gonna do it. Usually the 100 people who get issue one.
Andrew Adams:
So martialjournal.com that's the place to be.

Justin Lee Ford:

That's the place to be.
Jeremy Lesniak:
So what are some of the other things that we're doing that are a little bit different, Justin?

We talked about the incentivizing of ads, we talked about the fact that writers get paid, which, you know it's not abnormal in print but you know for what we've been doing, it's not what we've been doing. We talked about having to sign up to get on the list to stay on the list. the size the, you know, we're trying to win. It's not just, if you think about it, maybe this is a good place for you to run with it, we're not just looking at, hey, we want you to read the whole thing more than once. Yes, and keep it on a shelf.

Justin Lee Ford:
Yes.
Jeremy Lesniak:
One of our longer term goals and we won't hit the page count to do this yet, but if you look at it or I don't know if you're a manga guy, but there are some collections that as you line up the the print books, you have a picture along the spine. You will do that to everything that we can do to make this a valued collectible, that people are receiving did we hit the point that it's free. Did we mention that, that those 100?
Andrew Adams:
You had mentioned that.
Jeremy Lesniak:
It's free like it there's no. I hate paying for a magazine and having ads crammed down my throat. It's weird to me. So we've, that's why we've done the model the way we have.
Justin Lee Ford:
Okay, just think about that difference for a second. Right. How often do you pay for a magazine or pay for a subscription or for magazine, and then just ignore after the first run after the first read through because there's so many ads of the content is really pertinent to you. This is a free thing that you can read multiple times. That's incredible, right, so that's where the engagement comes in place that repeated the evergreen content, the ability to stay engaged with everything that you're reading. That's one of the big differences that we will focus on right, this isn't something just for a one done read through. We want this to be something that stays with you for a while, again, a collectible.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah, and as it grows you know we've modeled out the first I think six or maybe even 12 issues internally, how that grows and it's growing, not only in the number of issues that we release, the cost of the ads, which we should come back and talk about ads costs in a second.
The amount that contributors get paid and the number of pages, you know, we're starting with the, you know, if you want to use nerdy entrepreneurs make a minimum viable product and we're going to roll that up just slowly march it up and get to something that is a real thick book, you know, does it remain quarterly, I don't know. We don't know that yet we don't know frequency yet, but we know where we're trying to take this and, you know, who wouldn't love to get some really sweet martial arts weekly magazine I mean we're we're not opposed to that but the numbers have to work and we just have to, it all has to line up what you talk about ads and price of ads because I've been having a lot of conversation with advertisers who they don't get it at first, but once they get it, they're like, oh, I get it, let's do it.
Justin Lee Ford:
Alright, well, I have to pull up the the ad numbers to give exact numbers there, essentially boiling down to this though,
Jeremy Lesniak:
I've got them in my head.
Justin Lee Ford:
Okay, Perfect because I know you've been reaching out to a couple people I've been working on some of the other internal things here but we've really been focused on making the ad prices as low cost, high value as possible, right, we are, again, we've gone through all the numbers the logistics of everything so we can see what makes this a good deal, not just for the readers are getting this for free, but also what can we do for the advertisers and help them out the best. So can you run through those exact numbers?
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah, so that our ad pricing is based on a couple things we wanted to make it competitive to internet ad prices, right, because if you, when we're talking about a finite number of printed copies. It doesn't make sense for us to just say oh you know, We can put you in this and, you know you can have this half a page and it'll be, you know $900 and you're gonna go to 30,000 copies or $50 or however many it is right, and that's really cheap, but how many people see that ad versus internet and if anybody out there has ever had to pay for ads on the internet. I do quite a bit. I know what I'm paying for impression and per click. And these numbers are really high, especially when you get to more generic terms. 

A quarter page, so, that is a quarter of a quarter of this, so roughly. Not quite the size of my phone. I don't know.

Andrew Adams:
Business card?

Jeremy Lesniak:
Bigger than a business card, is 45 cents per, 45 cents per so if you have a quarter page ad and issue one, it's going to cost you $45.
Justin Lee Ford:
Which that's amazing price.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I mean it is, and, and I've had some pushback, people are like, well, but it's only 100 I'm like whoa, hold on, you're getting all the digital downloads for free. The 1000s of downloads, this is going to be our free. That's a lot of value,
And so over time as that grows and people were like, Oh, I'm trying to get in on the print, I want to read the digital, and I'm grabbing it I'm downloading it, I'm filling out the form, I'm trying to move into the limited edition category that 45 cents per starts to move up. 

Because, and how do we know that they're paying attention to the ads, because they know they're gonna have to vote for their best debt, are they're going to people who are going to be people who will just randomly click on? Yes.

Justin Lee Ford:
Of course, well of course,
Jeremy Lesniak:
But not all of them, and not most of them, and how do most people flip through a magazine. That's an ad. Okay, oh, there's something I can read. And if advertisers do what we are recommending they do and making great ads, people were actually going to look for them in the way that they do, tune in to the Superbowl.
Justin Lee Ford:
Exactly right and for all the advertisers that want to get more information on that kind of stuff. Again, they can email me, justin@martialjournal.com, we've gotten media kit that talks about what our reach is and how long we've been doing this kind of thing. And it gives them more important information for them to what they're looking at. 

Jeremy Lesniak:
Andrew have we missed anything? 

Andrew Adams:
I had one more question I'm most everything I understand but if I or a listener, goes to martialjournal.com right now, and spends the three and a half years you would need to read all of the articles there.

Jeremy Lesniak:
There's a lot there.

Andrew Adams:
There's a lot and I sign up for this, I'm one of the lucky 100, that gets us first issue is all of the content in that issue, going to be brand new? Or is it going to be stuff that you've already 100 on their website? 29:12  
Justin Lee Ford:
That's new stuff fresh for your eyes.
Jeremy Lesniak:
In our first draft, I think we said we might reuse 20% but nothing in our later models has done that. Correct. 

Andrew Adams:
That's thoroughly amazing.

Jeremy Lesniak:
And, you know, we've got enough people who want to write. And, you know, that's one of the pluses of us doing this small to start with is that we don't have to fill pages. We have more that everything that we're doing is based on kind of evolution of the magazine, and maintaining the scarcity of the resources. So if we have, you know, a ton of people clamoring to write more will open up more pages if we don't, we won't. 

If we have advertisers clamoring for more ad space, and it's driving the price up, then we can pay the writers more, which should incentivize more people to want to write right so it's this very free market approach is to we've got these variables that we can play with to try to ultimately to get the best result for everyone.
Justin Lee Ford:
Exactly. We've been working on this for a bit now and again.

Jeremy Lesniak:
Over a year, it has been over a year 30:36 

Justin Lee Ford:
It has been amazing, think about now is, and we're just now unveiling it seriously. And keep in mind the idea that rust success can be failure in skies, so. right, there's a quote for everything. Rust success can be.

Jeremy Lesniak:
Listeners now you know why like we're 30:53 
Justin Lee Ford:
So we've looked at these numbers we've looked at what we're actually capable of bringing, right. And this is what we've decided is absolutely the best.
Jeremy Lesniak:
This is where we're starting. 

Justin Lee Ford:
This is where we started,

Jeremy Lesniak:
I think we've hit all the high points, you know just reiterate, if you want more information, justin@martialjournal.com, if you want to sign up or to get on the list so we can reach out to you and say, Hey, give us your address. Sign up at martialjournal.com.
Justin Lee Ford:

Martial journal is the place to be.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Andrew anything else?

Andrew Adams:
Excellent. No, thank you so much Justin for coming on and letting us know. I think there are going to be 100 very excited people when this comes out, and there are going to be 45 gazillion people unhappy because they won't get one.
Jeremy Lesniak:
31:49 how often you get to be in on the ground floor something?

Justin Lee Ford:
Exactly.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Thanks for joining us. Thanks for all your hard work, my friend.
Justin Lee Ford:
Thank you so much. It's a pleasure to chat with you guys and to be on the show.