Episode 600 - Conversations on Martial Arts with Jaredd and Ando
In this episode, Jeremy is joined by Sensei Ando of the Fight for A Happy Life Podcast and Sensei Jaredd of the Martial Thoughts Podcast.
Conversations on Martial Arts with Jaredd and Ando - Episode 600
Welcome to the 600th episode of the whistlekick Martial Arts Radio Podcast. What better way to celebrate this milestone than making this special episode with our friends? In this episode, Jeremy is joined by Sensei Ando of the Fight for A Happy Life Podcast and Sensei Jaredd of the Martial Thoughts Podcast where they have a little conversation all about the Martial Arts. Listen and enjoy!
Show Notes
Listen and subscribe to Sensei Ando’s Fight for A Happy Life Podcast and Sensei Jaredd’s Martial Thoughts Podcast
Show Transcript
You can read the transcript below.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Hey, what's up everybody? Welcome. You're watching or listening. Whistle kick martial arts radio Episode 600.
Jaredd Wilson:
You need the Hermit the Frog soundtrack.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Actually, that's what I was saying. Right? And I am joined by two very good friends two people. I think very highly, I respect the hell out of them when it comes to martial arts and podcasting. Yeah, yeah. The Bruce Lee picture on the wall behind you. Jaredd Wilson and Marshall thoughts and Ando.
Ando Mierzwa:
Hey.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I haven’t said your last name in a long time.
Ando Mierzwa:
Don't do it. That’s fine. Fight for happy life.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Happy life. I'm thrown off by your shirt. I was reading the shirt.
Ando Mierzwa:
In my blinding smile. Congratulations, Jeremy. This is a big deal. Holy smokes. 600 What incredible accomplishment. I'm really inspired by this. Even if the work isn't very good. Just to have a commitment to get this far is its credit.
Jeremy Lesniak:
That's really all it is. I just keep going and I don't think anybody's ever accused me of being better at anything. I just don't go away. I don't stop. I am annoyingly persistent at many things. And sometimes that works out in my favor. Unfortunately, sometimes it doesn't. But I think within the context of the show and whistlekick, I think it works out. And so, listeners viewers, the whole plan here was that there really wasn't much of a plan when Andrew and I were talking, you know what, what to do for 600? I just said, you know, what if we just get some people that I like working with? And these were the, to the top of the list, right? And here we are, yeah, you know.
Ando Mierzwa:
So, here we are.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And we literally have no agenda. And we don't need one because when the three of us have worked together in the past, it takes usually about two minutes. And we already did this where it just we just started to go and it got funny and silly. And I enjoy this. And so even if you out there don't tough because I'm going to and I've got a feeling these two gentlemen will as well. And that's really what matters to me on this one. So, but we got to start it somewhere. We've got to have some kind of start off topic from which we can we can divert. Let's talk about persistence. Right. And that's kind of what led us in? No, we've all worked with students. We've all been students in martial arts and other things. How important is being persistent? Versus good.
Jaredd Wilson:
Actually, I think it's much more important to be persistent than good. You know, from a historical point of view, if you look at ShutoKan. Oh, what do you [00:03:01-00:03:03]? Physically, they were little tiny guys. I mean, even amongst the Japanese, the Japanese said these guys are short. And I think them just showing up and getting better was more important than being the end result of being good for. I think that was a more important aspect for it. But we have a saying in our dojo 1000 cuts can't be wrong. One of them in there has to be right.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Oh, I like that. I like that. Ando?
Ando Mierzwa:
I've heard that saying as well like, quote that all the time. I love that. Yeah, persistence. What else is there? what's the alternative? The alternative is quitting. So, it's impossible to get better by quitting. You can only get better by being persistent. So yeah, that indomitable spirit that perseverance. You're a Taekwondo fella. Right, the couple of the tenants of Taekwondo perseverance and indomitable spirit. So absolutely. I think we're all aboard for that. So, 600 episodes, you're living example of what persistence can do.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah. And you know, and when I post this, you guys both answered it in a slightly different way than it was in my head, which I like. But when I was thinking of it, I was thinking of persistence, as in, I'm going to keep showing up and not be so focused on how much better I can get. Because I've seen people who, when they're trying to improve on something, they're trying to take such big steps, and they're not getting there, that they get dejected. They feel you know, they set these really high aspirational goals. Where, I mean, if we take the example of this podcast, I really haven't focused on how do we make this better? How does it get better? How do you know I'm going to go to school to be a better interviewer? it just, I'm going to keep showing up. And if you go back to your early episodes, you know that I never went to school for this. There's no period in time where it becomes, you know what, Jeremy got a lot better. There's Jeremy got a little bit better. You know that 1%… How do you improve 1% every time you do something, can you find a tiny little to improve and then stack that iterative progress? And I think those...
Jaredd Wilson:
One thing is if you want to make it an active versus a passive process to, you know, whether you're talking about getting better at interviews or getting better in front kick, are you actively trying to do it? Are you looking at passively have it? So that can be a big difference in that too?
Jeremy Lesniak:
What do you mean? Go deeper to the active and passive.
Jaredd Wilson:
Sure. So again, if you can't tell from the outfit my day job, I'm a high school teacher. And the majority of people in a class that they really don't care about, try to passively learn. They sit there and they hope some kind of magical osmosis happens, and that they learned this stuff. As opposed to active where people are putting forth effort to learn something. And I'm kind of with you in the interviewing process. I never went to school for any this. My wife went to school for some of this. So, I've, you know, I've used my resources were available. But sure, for me, it's more of a, you know, is it have to like, go back and actually listen to episodes and say, what did I do bad? What did I do good on those? Or did I do pass it where I'm like, as I do this, I just get better and better at the feel for it. You know, that would be kind of a passive versus inactive thing for that.
Jeremy Lesniak:
This is fast. I'm totally spectrum that you... Yeah.
Ando Mierzwa:
Holy smokes. What the hell are you guys talking about? Because let's go back to the 1000 cuts, okay. There's a difference receipt between saying okay, I did 1000 cuts, but one of them must have met, right? I just don't know which one it was. So therefore, to be very difficult to make to correct. So that's completely passive. Like, you're just hoping you're going to get better at something. I think that's a huge, huge mistake. It's all about guided practice persistence. Tony Robbins always says, I think that was it. If you keep running East looking for a sunset, it doesn't matter how persistent you are, you're going to fail. At some point, you need the guidance, whether it's a teacher, or it's obviously you're going to be yourself, you have to be your own teacher. You've got to start paying attention to what you're doing, reflect on it. See if that's the what you wanted to get the results, you have to start comparing effort to results. I have no problem saying that I've always try to be a student of teaching, like how do I be better as a teacher? And I do listen to old podcasts and go, okay, let me listen to this interview, like, Am I allowing enough space? Am I asking decent questions? Did I do my research? Did I just try to wing it? Am I trying to be funnier than the guest or you know, all these kinds of questions? Now, of course, it's a balance. You don't want to overthink things and get in the way of the play. But my goodness, if there's not some guidance, then you're just a missile with no target. You're just flying around could destroy things. How's that?
Jeremy Lesniak:
What? I like it. What if there's middle ground? Because I think we're talking about right now. There's no middle ground now. Okay, put in meeting waiting rooms.
Jaredd Wilson:
I think there is. There's a middle ground where you may not know what the what the missile target should be. You are kind of determining that in flight. You know, to continue the metaphor I have. When I started my martial arts podcast, I had no idea what I wanted it to be. I kind of had a vague intuition that I wanted to talk to people. And this was a way to allow me to do that. So, as I was doing it, I refined one I wanted it to be sure. You know it, there's a there's a problem in that. One is that there really aren't mentors for this. I mean, you can look them up online. And but you know, they all say the top 10 list of things you got to do every time.
Jeremy Lesniak:
We're the ones now.
Jaredd Wilson:
Maybe.
Ando Mierzwa:
Well, interviewing isn't a new. I grew up watching Johnny Carson. It's easy to figure out how to have a good conversation. How about that?
Jaredd Wilson:
So, you can have a mentor, not even necessarily in the field, right. Now. That's a good example too.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Sure. Here's how I'm looking at this. Because I suspect we're saying very similar things, not the same things. But I think we're seeing similar things, just looking at it differently. You know, and the best part about having you on is that I usually play the contrarian and I can't because you grabbed that role quickly. I said, if we... Let's take learning, let's take a front kick. For example. You can put out the bare minimum front kick and maybe over 1000 classes, that front kick, just by accident and repetition, get slightly better. You could go the other end of the spectrum and go to the best martial artists all over the world. Skip classes, forget classes forget putting in reps, I'm going to look for what are the big hacks and shortcuts and the big leaps that I can take in my training. And that may or may not work, it can be expensive and time consuming and frustrating. Or the way I look at it, whether it's a front kick or the show, I'm going to show up and I'm going to do the best front kick I can with the understanding that I have at that time. And once in a while, I'll take it. I'll have a small step forward. I'll have a small. it's not even an epiphany. It's a small. Oh, I like the way that feels. Oh, I like the way I transitioned in between those questions. I like the way we scheduled that guest. And, you know, you have a lot of these 1% moments where he can sometimes even be hard to look at the two and say, this one is clearly better. Sometimes it's just instinct and saying, I think this one's better. And I kind of want to see we're doing this another 1000 times takes me.
Ando Mierzwa:
Sure. Well, that's guidance and reflection. That's more what I would be saying. That's the play part of it. So that's great. I love that phrase; they would you say 1% moments? That should be on a T shirt somehow that's pretty good. You don't train for the 1% moment you're not training for. Oh, I got to be first placed by next week, or oh, I want to make a million dollars in a price fight. Like, no persistence means that you're training for the 1% moments.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Right? I love which I think is a lot more sustainable. And I think that, and this is something I've been reflecting on a lot in looking at social media. I don't know how much time you guys spend on Facebook. But I am constantly being bombarded now with martial art. Because whistlekick, one of the things we have checked is whistlekick is a martial arts school. So, we're getting bombarded. I'm getting bombarded with, here's how to add all these students to your school, you know, at 137 students tomorrow, you know, so these really big promises that I'm sorry. Even if I had an actual martial art school, I don't believe your claim. And all of this other start this course does this. And it doesn't matter where I go, I'm getting smacked in the face with these. Are you guys seeing all these two? Well, sure, yeah.
Jaredd Wilson:
I'm getting a lot of SEO optimization stuff, too. I don't know if this is like a post COVID where people are starting to do things again. And, you know, so they're trying to capitalize on that maybe or...
Jeremy Lesniak:
What's going on is there are a lot of courses out there that teach you how to make and sell courses. We've reached the point of saturation. And because the best way to market all that stuff, is to show these dramatic changes make all these huge claims. I noticed that when I see these things, you know, here's the secret that we use to sell $420 million on line last year, and I'm looking at these things, and I'm looking at our struggling business. And I feel badly about myself. But what as I dig in, I realized it's all BS. It's not real, of course. And so, we've got this this culture that is holding up all of this crap, to suggest that taking these huge, big steps is the way to approach things when it's the 1% moments. It's the persistence that I think is so much more valuable and sustainable.
Ando Mierzwa:
Absolutely. I mean, who's going to disagree with that? Boy, you clearly hit a trigger here on yourself. Yeah, trigger. Yeah, up here.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I did. I didn't even realize it.
Ando Mierzwa:
Well, yeah, I mean, this is just marketing 101, of course, people are going to over promise what your results are going to be. That's the little print at the bottom, your results may vary. And it'll be a lot less, very less. Of course, that's you, we're all old enough to understand that. But we're also old enough, especially through the martial arts to see how long it takes to really start accruing skill. Wherever you started. When you see the guys up there that you want to be like your mentors, your teachers, it seems like it's just there's no way you're ever going to cross that gap. I'm just, you know, I'm glad to be 51 now, and it's only now I'm starting to get a better picture of like, oh look, because I was persistent. I'm starting to accrue some of those skills that seemed magical to me at one point. And oh, God, I hope my body can last long enough to get me going to get some more because what's you're into it, that you get addicted to that 1% because now your expectations are normalized and you're living in the real world, then I don't mind getting up every day for that, you know, or being self-taught during COVID. And having no partners necessarily. I have no problem never not wanting to get out of bed and train immediately because I'm into that 1% or less. In some days, it's zero but I know this week might turn into a 1% or this month might turn into a 1%. So, once you get that mature learning perspective, then I think there's no stopping you. So, clearly, you've made it past all of that stuff. So, I don't know why you're so upset.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Because I don't like the impact of that one.
Ando Mierzwa:
Oh, stop it their [00:15:10-00:15:12]. Take it easy. You can't go around, hey, you people, you should do this and hey, don't fall for that. Let them figure that out. If people are out there, hacks and shortcuts, they're going to flame out burnout, they're going to see that doesn't work. And either the people that are meant to do these things move forward will do it. Or they will not. But we can't go around trying to convince people like, hey, stop, don't go over there.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Trying to I'm not trying to convince anybody. It just makes me sad.
Ando Mierzwa:
You have to remove all ads off of Facebook, you would like to have all you...
Jeremy Lesniak:
No, I don't because then the economics of Facebook doesn't work. And then Facebook's going to do even shady things. God, they've already been shady. They're going to get shadier.
Ando Mierzwa:
This was the last episode. Before we got shut down. Here they come. The Facebook police are coming.
Jaredd Wilson:
If anything on the internet is free. That's because you are the product.
Jeremy Lesniak:
That's right. If you don't see the business, the monetization strategy, you are the monetization strategy.
Ando Mierzwa:
Why are we bitter about that? It's fantastic. Look at all these free great resources that we get.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I don’t think I’m bitter about that.
Ando Mierzwa:
I’m hearing happy voices when you guys say that? Yeah, that wasn't happiness, like holy crap, we get to talk face to face on zoom. Maybe you're paying for your membership, but you don't have to. This is fantastic. What a resource. Wow, amazing.
Jeremy Lesniak:
At least you're staying true to brand.
Ando Mierzwa:
Happy and caffeinated.
Jeremy Lesniak:
He's drinking out of a happy life mug for you. Who are who are listening?
Jaredd Wilson:
To continue that same idea we were talking about, you're talking about the big leaps versus small leaps? Yeah. I think in the it's the law of diminishing returns, right. And when you start something, you do get that big leap and ability. From the first week you started martial arts to the first month you completed it, there's a big leap and ability, that leap gets smaller and smaller. So those increments you have, it's almost like you're talking about the psychological training to accept the fact that those learnings are getting smaller and smaller and not, you know, get bored and quit martial arts or, you know, get bored and give up the piano or you know, whatever it is you're practicing.
Jeremy Lesniak:
People think they plateau when really, they're just looking at their zoomed out or in their zoom too far in one direction or the other. They're looking at the wrong increment. When I consult with established businesses, you know that? Well, you know, we started doing this last week, 90 days, anything we do, you should be looking at a shift in 90 days or possibly more. There's a reason you see big international conglomerates, making forecasts for revenue three years in advance, because it takes them that long to turn such a big ship. Sure. I wonder how many people stopped training stopped anything that actually were making progress and didn't realize it? Because they were looking at what they were looking for, for a greater increment of movement than existed?
Jaredd Wilson:
I would say almost all of them, I would think, why would...
Ando Mierzwa:
If they were feeling successful and incrementally getting better, if they felt that then they probably wouldn't stop. It's like an investment. If the investment keeps paying you back money, why would I pull out of that investment?
Jeremy Lesniak:
So, if they looked closer, I mean, you know, if they were expecting a 5% return, and they were getting a quarter percent return, if they looked closer and saw that quarter percent, would they say, oh, I thought I was getting zero. And it's moving, it's moving in the right direction. It's just moving slower than I had hoped for.
Jaredd Wilson:
I think it's more of a diminished dopamine return. So, it isn't money per se. It's that initial and holy crap, look how much better I got, I feel awesome. I feel better in shape. And then it's like I'm doing the same amount of work. Why am I not getting that same amount of dopamine? So again, it's kind of retraining your brain to think of it differently.
Jeremy Lesniak:
So as instructors, we should come up behind every student and poke them when they're not, we should give them a notification. You're doing great. You're making progress.
Jaredd Wilson:
And that's part of the motivation. And the initial part is just encouragement and letting them know they're doing the right thing. To be a good teacher at some point. You have to stop doing that and give them honest critique, as opposed to nope, just keep punching, you know?
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah, what is 1000 punches look like when nobody's told you how to...
Jaredd Wilson:
Fixed it 1000 times.
Ando Mierzwa:
Right, which is where you have to be your own teacher, especially with martial arts because you don't hit your probably unless you're incredibly rich and lucky, you have a teacher next to you and every move you make, at some point, he's got to go over to your bag or whatever that is and do that front kick on your own. And you describe it very well. Jeremy, where you said it, how did it feel, because that's part of the reflection is the learning. So, if I go over and kick that back over there, and my hip kind of tweaks a little bit, then I know like, okay, my body just taught me something. So, now let me try this again, see if I cannot tweak my hip. And then you start funneling your experience into something that's getting more skillful. Or at least you're not going to hurt your hip. And I got to start looking at your knee and your ankle and did the back move much. And did it make a snap? You sound it was a 30 sound. And did you fall off balance? There are so many things to look at and fix each small and incrementally better each time, hopefully. But again, only with the guidance of your own reflection, if you're if you're not doing that. Yeah, that's, that's a recipe for disaster, I think.
Jeremy Lesniak:
So, here's... Go ahead.
Jaredd Wilson:
Maybe one of the things you should do is teach with the feedback should, what your feedback you should looking for should be.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And actually, that dovetails really well, it, we're not going to expect that, you know, a first day white belt is going to be able to go over to the bag and kick the bag and get the level of feedback you're talking about. If we tell most people, you know, day one, go over and kick the bag, if they fall over, they're probably going to gather they did something wrong, but they may not know what it is. If their hip hurts, their knee hurts, they're hopefully going to say, something's not right here. But I've seen plenty people say, oh, that's just how I'm built, you know, they just kind of blindly accept it. All three of us have been training long enough that we understand that we can do some solo training, we can help ourselves get better. But does that skill set only arise? Because we have spent time teaching others? Hmm.
Jaredd Wilson:
That's an interesting one.
Ando Mierzwa:
The answer's no. Okay. I don't teach you to make progress, right?
Jeremy Lesniak:
Well, that's not what I'm saying. The idea of take that example, going to the bag, kicking the bag, and being able to take feedback from that and internalize it understand what it means and correct your own form. Out of that, that whole process that I mean, that is a teaching process, does that teaching process only come for yourself only come as a result of learning how to teach others? Because a lot of us have a hard time teaching ourselves? A lot of us have a hard time taking our own advice. I don't. And I genuinely don't know, I'm asking. I don't know the answer to this question.
Jaredd Wilson:
I don't think it's a result of you. Being a teacher, it's a result of knowing what to look for, which could still be again, the feedback that the instructor is giving the correct, giving you the what to look for is the correct feedback. Right. This is what a kick should look like. This is what a kick should sound like. This is you know, if it's hurting something that's wrong, you know, sometimes you need to say things like that, you know, if you're doing it into hurts, don't do that, you know? So, I think, because I would say that no professional athlete could learn without a coach there. And obviously, you know, they can go on, they can practice, you know, Tom Brady can throw the football as much as he wants, and he knows what to look for on his own throws, and he can work on those.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Where did he learn that?
Jaredd Wilson:
Wasn't he never taught it to anybody?
Jeremy Lesniak:
It's so was it a skit? Is it a separate skill set? Is that a skill set that is taught? I'm going to teach you how to correct yourself.
Jaredd Wilson:
I understand the feedback that you're getting from yourself? Yeah, I think we kind of we get that in unintentionally when we practice the right way. I mean, if you're doing a martial art, and they saying, okay, don't do it wrong. And the guy comes over and says here, put your hand here do and then you do it the right way. And it goes, that's what it should feel like. The question is, how much can you internalize that and say, I understand what that is supposed to feel like? So, it's refinement of understanding what the correct feedback is supposed to be?
Jeremy Lesniak:
And I can't tell if you're thoughtful.
Ando Mierzwa:
I think there's an age-old argument. I can think right away of two different Brazilian jujitsu schools here. Like ones like say, the Gracie Academy and when I train with taking a shot, okay. And they have completely different, completely different teaching methodologies. And I'm sure anyone listening out their martial arts school will figure out through either one of these or somewhere in the middle, and the big choices, maybe at the Gracie Academy, they're going to say, okay, here's the first 36 things you're going to learn. Here's a class, just teaching that thing, here are the baby steps you're going to get, we're going to take you by the hand, we're going to show you each of these pieces and put this together for you. You just plug yourself in, relax and go. The other teaching methodology is, well just go roll with that guy. Go roll. See what you find out. And either you're tapping more, you're tapping less after months and years go by, and maybe once in a while. You get a quick little hey, hey, you know, closer on that, you get one little tip, and that's going to guide you for the next six months to go experiment. So, you have the kind of I will guide you teaching methodology, or the, once you figure this out for yourself, and I'll be here to really, if you get way out of line, I'll be here to get help guide you but, and there's pros and cons to both. As a business person, there's pros and cons to both. As a student, there's pros and cons to both. And as a teacher, there are pros and cons to both. So, I don't know how much you want to talk about. But that's my idea.
Jeremy Lesniak:
It’s a great way to break it down. It really is. And I I've spent enough time teaching to know that different people need different if we think of them as a spectrum, different people are going to be in different places, if their ingredients different people need different amounts, but nobody needs all of one and none of the other. You know, you can turn somebody loose, but they're still going to benefit from, hey, you know how you keep tapping out? Because they keep putting you in that triangle? I don't know, every time maybe you should try doing this?
Jaredd Wilson:
Sure. It almost sounds like you're a teaching methodology for martial arts. Are you teaching the techniques to get to the principles? Or are you teaching the principles and then applying the techniques to them?
Ando Mierzwa:
Yep. Right.
Jeremy Lesniak:
There was a quote on social media I saw that was attributed to me. So, what am I supposed to say here? We learn the techniques to understand the principles and then we use the principles to guide our techniques, something like that.
Ando Mierzwa:
Certainly, on principle, logical.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah. Because I think when you start doing anything, you know, if I show up to the Martial Academy on day one, and have no experience rolling, and they say, all right, go grapple with that guy, I'm going to go out, I don't even know anything to do. Right. Right. And I've seen people thrown into sparring in a karate or Taekwondo class on day one. And they've learned how to sort of not fall over when they throw a front kick. And, you know, probably, the irony is low block, high block, punch, front kick, is quite often day one, and a lot of the schools that I've trained at, which, you know, almost useless in the context of your, your standard point, if sparring because everybody turned sideways, correct. So, but you're over there, this doesn't, this doesn't help me. And then they figured out they can punch this way. But you got to give them something that they can they can start drawing some conclusions from to build I think those concepts for themselves.
Ando Mierzwa:
Well, you don't have to, but this is why it's interesting to study how other people run their schools or their classes. And like you just said, figure out where you are on that spectrum to say, hey, I learned the best when a teacher literally maps it out for me step by step to get me going, or, hey, man, I already know some stuff. Let me just play and see what I can figure out. And then I'll come back to you when I have a question. There are times for both, you know, it depends on there's so many things to learn in martial arts, right? It's a vast study. So much going on psychologically, emotionally, physically, and then you're getting older, there's new things, you have to relearn different ways. So, they're, all of these training methods are going to come in handy at some point.
Jaredd Wilson:
And you don't have to walk into one of them. You can flip back and forth day to day over the course of your teaching career. I mean, I mean, again, like you said, again, my high school job, a kid asked me.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I was a little worried with that last Batman villain was coming out.
Jaredd Wilson:
Two things. I'll be bald faced.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Next time we record can you be really excited? Can we wear costumes the next time we do this?
Jaredd Wilson:
One of my students goes, you never answered my questions. And I go, don't I?
Jeremy Lesniak:
Oh, I can see that. If I, had you as a teacher. On some days you would be my favorite teacher and other days I would want to like set on fire.
Jaredd Wilson:
That's my goal.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I'm curious if this describes you guys because it describes me and I think to a certain degree with varying degrees, you know, all of them what we were talking about. It describes most of the people I've taught that they learn best with a combination of the two let's say let's take the context of you know, grappling you know, free rolling in a BJJ you know, on some mats. Here's a move we go over the move show you the move a few times. They grab a partner, they do the move a handful of times, they've got just enough of it that they can go kind of play with it. Okay, now grab a different partner and you guys, I want you to find go half speed try to find some opportunities to work this in. And okay switch few times. And Alright, you know, last 15 minutes class. Alright. See if you can make this work. Look for it. Go, does that. Is that a way that you both teach? Is that a way that works for you?
Jaredd Wilson:
Language wise, I specifically use the word, go play with it. Because I think that's fair, then go practice it. That assumes you know it, I'm like, no, go experiment with it. You know, here's the guidelines, here's the constraints. Go play with it, you know. So, I do that aspect. Personally, I think I do more of the principal base, when I teach, I'll teach four or five, let's say to use were techniques, I'll think of four or five techniques that are all based on the same principle. And then after the class, then we do the reflection and say, you know, pop quiz, you know, what was it that linked all of those together? And then that gives you a gauge for what the people are understanding? You know, if they say, well, I'm everyone punched with their right hand and like, Well, yeah, but that's, that's, that's kind of like baby steps. You know, what's the overall principle of the of the techniques? And sometimes people get it, sometimes they don't. So, I think that's a more accurate way to gauge where they are is, what do they understand about how the art pieces fit together rather than the individual, you know, puzzle pieces. So that's a little bit about more how my martial arts teach.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Ando?
Ando Mierzwa:
I would say there's a huge difference between what you learn, and then how you learn. I mean, more specific to techniques. Like for the first let's say, 20, something years, I was more of a technique collector, it was all about the what I thought that was the goal of being a martial artist, I want to learn 700 different wrist locks. And what do I do from chokes? And you just start listing all these techniques, which answers the question, what do I do? What do I do if someone grabs me? What do I do if they have a knife? What do I do? But at some point, I put my notebooks down said, wait a minute, I can't do any of these. I have so many techniques I know so much. But I can't make any of this work. So, then you have to back up. How do you do these things? So, in the class description that you just gave Jeremy's saying, which is very typical, I think, every martial arts class almost as some form of that technique, let's go through this, practice it a few times, okay, now go play with it. And it's always frustrating, I think, because you just learned what to do. But you didn't really learn how to do it, the only way you can learn how to do it is through the 1000s and 1000s of hours of practice and experience and how to set things up and how to follow through and how to convert things into variations. And that's where the experience comes in. Which is why now I'm far more open about sharing techniques. In the old days, I always say I used to put things in my safe, I'm going to take my notebooks and lock them up. Because I thought that if someone showed you a move, this was like the secret stuff. No one's supposed to know this. And now I know it. So now I'm part of that, you know, web of intriguing martial art stuff. And then when I finally realized, like, Yeah, but not all of this is worthless, you could give you all of your notebooks to someone and it's not like there's suddenly going to be a great be a great martial artist, you got to put in that sweat equity, take the punches fail a lot to figure out how to make any of this work. And the good thing is, once you do that, I believe so far, I'm still in this process. When you start figuring out how to make even one technique work, then that unlocks how to make all the other one's work. So, there is a payoff at some point for having this encyclopedic knowledge. However, you got to suck up sucking for a long time and just do that work. Otherwise, you'll never know how to make anything work.
Jeremy Lesniak:
It's not a video game. It's not buttons and combos, and like, oh, I've unlocked this new move.
Ando Mierzwa:
You have to have experience with how to do if you gave me controllers and gave me a magazine said here's all the hacks for getting through this level of whatever, Donkey Kong, I still haven't done it. So, I have no idea how to actually do it.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Only I think only ironically. You went there. I mean, all the opportunities to make a fighting game.
Ando Mierzwa:
I don't know any. I honestly don't play video games. I try to stay away from it. I'm too OCD. I never played.
Jeremy Lesniak:
You've never played Tekken?
Ando Mierzwa:
No.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Now, I want to like send you money to open a twitch account and have you play tech and so we can watch it. Because I think that would be great.
Ando Mierzwa:
I'm not too addicted. When I was a kid, I was, you know, the first version of Atari was like asteroids or whatever the heck it was even Ping-Pong. That was it. I'm in my room. Now I'm not coming out until I flip that board and flip the score and get higher and higher. And I realized this is a problem. I should stay away from these types of things. So that's why I don't drink, don't smoke, no video games, because I know I'll just never get up.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Now, sounds like a pretty good weekend. Not maybe not the smoking.
Ando Mierzwa:
Oh, no. You're judgmental. Okay.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I just don't smoke.
Jaredd Wilson:
Getting on with what you were saying about the you know, learning about how to do something. That's a side question. Or maybe even a further question is the why do you do something that you can attribute on there to, you know, why do you techniques work? Not just how do I make them work? But why? What's the principle behind it? But so that's the why this works. You know, when I tip a guy's head, why does he fall over? You know, can I apply that to everything else? So that's when you start to get to some of the other good learning stuff too, is when you start going, not only, you know, what is the technique? How do I make it work? But why does the technique work? You know, there's three levels of understanding right there.
Ando Mierzwa:
Oh, I see, you went a different way than I thought. Why is a great question? I thought you meant why in this situation; would I choose this technique? Is it for my ego? Is it Am I going overboard? Is this really something to fight for? Why am I doing this? What am I fighting for right now? Do I need to fight for this? Now? To me that was even how about afford another one? Why am I doing this? Why did you could say, hey, I know what technique to do. Someone's got their hands on my throat. Okay. And I know how to make a technique work. I might know three or four different things, how to make it work. But why would I choose this one where I smashed him in the face? Does that make me feel better than if I hit him in the groin? Or attacking the fingers? Why does some techniques appeal to me more? And why do my instincts lead me to certain choices? Now you're getting to starting to peel those layers back about who you are? And why do you like that technique? Why do you like this art? Why have you spent so much time trying to figure out how to get out of a choke? What is your issue? What are you afraid of? So, the why is always a great question to throw out there. Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I think in the moment, the why is almost always because that's the technique that I was most comfortable with, it seemed to apply. But I think when you're talking at a slower pace you have and this is why I'm such an advocate for slower movement. I think there's definitely room for consideration. But if somebody's got their hand on your throat, assuming that they're actually applying pressure, I'm going to guess that you're not going to okay. Could punch him in the face? If I do that. Okay, I could kick them in the groin. But if I do that, then or should I punch you? Right? Because now you're done, you're done. Right now, you've passed out. I'm assuming that if you're going to deploy anything, it's going to be the thing that you're most comfortable with. I mean, that's been my observation of myself and most people will...
Ando Mierzwa:
So, the question is why is that the most comfortable saying that? There was only a little extra thing I was trying to throw in there? Yeah, of course, no. Okay. Would you do? So just like when we're talking about kicking the bag, and then you feel a little tweak, and they start making adjustments. So same thing if you're sparring, but you keep going to this one particular type of technique. Why is that one feeling like that's your best move tonight? Why do you keep avoiding these other techniques? I think that it reveals a lot about like, for instance, I heard a piece of advice once where it was said, People attack with the move that they're most afraid of being hit with. So, if you're sparring, you're using the thing that makes you feel the most vulnerable. So, think about that. Right? Like, why is that scare you so much?
Jeremy Lesniak:
Jason?
Jaredd Wilson:
I like that. That's a good cycle analysis of your own self.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah, I need, like, two hours to go sit and contemplate that one in silent. That's intense.
Jaredd Wilson:
Right. Right.
Jeremy Lesniak:
My initial responses, I agree. But I'm not sure why I agree. Excellent. That gets pretty sure I'm pretty sure I do agree. I'm just I'm thinking about what I typically do when I spar it you know, it's this style. It's a lot of sideshow and...
Ando Mierzwa:
Don't tell us. I want to be surprised someday.
Jeremy Lesniak:
There's backfist from sidekick.
Ando Mierzwa:
Oh, Bruce Lee. Bruce Lee's combo. The Bruce Lee special.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Hey also the Bill Wallace combo. Also, what I grew up doing it just it's, you know, staying as far away as possible. Ah, pay attention to my hand now, I'm going to kick you right. That's kind of been my thing. But is that my thing because or am I afraid of that because that's my thing. I don't know.
Ando Mierzwa:
This is an interesting. I like going with this right now because even the way he just said that reveals something about I'm back here. Why are you back there? Why aren't you on his face chewing his nose? What's the matter with you?
Jeremy Lesniak:
Because I'm short.
Ando Mierzwa:
And all the more reason all the more reason you should be over there like a monkey on his neck eating his throat why not general-purpose little guy how you get...
Jeremy Lesniak:
I am generally permitted in so I grew up point sparring.
Ando Mierzwa:
This is part of this okay.
Jeremy Lesniak:
There's no face chewing permitted in point sparring. least not in any rule set. I've ever witnessed. It would add a new dynamic. You know? No one point punch, two-point kick, three-point face, face...
Ando Mierzwa:
Yeah, we used to have the nerf mouthguard you have those special.... Whistlekick doesn't sell that in the store.
Jeremy Lesniak:
We do not sell those. Now, there's also some interesting zombie martial arts hybridization happening in my mind as I think about self-defense that involves biting people's faces. I mean, it feels very much like a Florida thing. There's got to be I mean, this is so Florida, Jaredd, there's got to be a school. And you've got to be able to help us find it because you're the one with the Florida.
Jaredd Wilson:
Fear the whistle kick. It'll be a new TV show.
Jeremy Lesniak:
We will not call it anything else. But I can. I can imagine somebody somebody's deep in Florida somewhere with a school and one of their techniques is okay. And then you do this and this and then you bite their face.
Jaredd Wilson:
It's alligator root. Shock that you're shocked.
Ando Mierzwa:
Maybe it's self-defense, man.
Jeremy Lesniak:
This is why you teach biting the face?
Ando Mierzwa:
Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Okay.
Ando Mierzwa:
My mother is on the ground being painted. All she has her arms are gone. And all she has is her teeth. I'm going to tell her to bite whatever the hell you can because that's Sure, sure. Sure, but if you don't practice it, that's not the steps do well.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Okay. I will agree if you don't practice it. I am not practiced at fighting faces. Are you practicing biting faces?
Ando Mierzwa:
Yes, this is what I'm saying.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Because Bob's face behind you looks pretty intact.
Ando Mierzwa:
I always wear lipstick. And I'm a very gentle partner. And we sanitize. Those masks make it a little harder.
Jeremy Lesniak:
But we may not be talking about martial arts anymore. We may we may have moved on and not realized.
Ando Mierzwa:
Doesn't at all just become one big thing you know? Are you wearing pants, sir? I'm coming back to that question.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I am. I showed and I'll show.
Ando Mierzwa:
We don't want to see your pants and shoes. That's just from the knees down. I don't know what kind of tricks you're playing, rubber bands.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I don't own pants and only go from the knee to the ankle. Those would be terrible pants. Actually, that's not true. I have one pair of those zip off things the hiking plans that zip off at the day. So, I do technically own those. But they're not jeans and I'm wearing jeans. Very well.
Ando Mierzwa:
Vermont style. Hashtag Vermont style.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Well, I mean the flannel Yeah, but it's Vermont style. It's snowing. It is accumulating out there. That's about half an inch on the ground right now.
Ando Mierzwa:
Sorry about that.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah, it's April. It's why we don't get our snow tires off until May. You really only guaranteed three months without snow. June, July, August. And it's only like half of June and then maybe another half in September. It's snows, yeah. Keeps the riffraff out. I said it and brought the conversation to a halt manner.
Ando Mierzwa:
No, I like that. I was just...
Jeremy Lesniak:
Good job, Jeremy.
Ando Mierzwa:
A license plate for Vermont that says, isn't no riffraff here.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Although third of new home sales last year, were out of state and so apparently not.
Ando Mierzwa:
You mean people coming into Vermont? Yeah, yeah. Oh, no. You're calling all of them riffraff.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah. All right. Very few is ever going to listen to the show. It'll be fine.
Ando Mierzwa:
Oh, boy. What other graves Would you like to dig today, Sir? Congratulations on 600 episodes. There are books coming for you. Here. There'll be a mob of Vermonters. Whatever you call yourself coming.
Jeremy Lesniak:
But there aren't enough of us to have a mob. There governor 630,000 people in the whole state.
Ando Mierzwa:
Is that right?
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah.
Ando Mierzwa:
Growing quickly, maybe? Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah, it's 630,002.
Jaredd Willson:
That’s the whole total sales last year.
Jeremy Lesniak:
The new home sales last year. We're something like 3700, the whole thing. Not new construction, but just sales. 3700 people?
Ando Mierzwa:
Well, this explains why you don't have your own martial art school like brick and mortar up there. That'd be rough, I guess.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Well, you have schools, you just don't have schools that have to 300 students. Right. You know, well established school like, like a big school, you know, 100 students.
Ando Mierzwa:
Okay. Sure. Yeah. Nowadays, I think that'll be big for everybody. Yeah. Are you happy with that?
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah, yeah, there are. There are areas where it just we don't even have the population density to drop a school.
Ando Mierzwa:
Since you have your fingers on the pulse of the traditional martial arts schools. I'm sure your email list is because you plug yourself as whistle kick traditional martial arts that were traditionally in there a lot. What's the What do you see is the big after effect of COVID? I mean, traditional martial arts have had some issues dealing with the MMA explosion, all that stuff anyway. Now with COVID? Are you getting people off your email list? Are people complaining to you? How many schools are shut down? Do you have your what's your sense now of where the traditional martial arts are going to be coming out of this?
Jeremy Lesniak:
From what I can see, the number of schools has definitely gone down. I mean, that's not a secret, you know that. And there are some students who are done training, you know, they elected not to go to a different school. But at least partially compensating for that is the fact that martial arts has been one of the few things that has remained in engaging. Even though it went online. It was still there when people were at home. Doing nothing other than putting on weight. And yeah, the what was the stat, the average adult male put on 41 pounds. Why in the first year of COVID?
Ando Mierzwa:
Is that right?
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yep.
Ando Mierzwa:
That's pretty bad. Yeah. Is that right? Really? I got a little note. I'll definitely look that up while I look at Oaks.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Look it up. Yep. Yeah, it was a lot of sitting around eating and drinking.
Ando Mierzwa:
In an epidemic or pandemic, when heavier people I think took a larger toll of the fatalities and things to keep away.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Number one comorbidity was being obese.
Ando Mierzwa:
Right? Oh, my gosh, that's terrifying.
Jaredd Wilson:
So, anecdotally, though, I have, you know, contacts with some people who said, they've gotten more new people in the last three, four months than they've had for the last two or three years.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah. And that's what I'm seeing. That's what I'm hearing from, you know, I've got some martial art schools, I work with his clients. And that's across the board. That's kind of what everybody's saying is, you know, we had this period of time that really sucked because we couldn't do things, a lot of people weren't comfortable, they pulled back. And so, as things have started to open back up, there have been a few factors. One, there has been a dependability factor because people have seen oh, these schools have remained, they have been steadfast, that's I'm looking for something. I can depend on in a world, that's all feels like it's all up in the air all the time, I'm going to go try this, you've got the last year of pent-up demand of starting something new because a lot of people weren't willing to start something new in the last year, because it was scary. And then you've got 41 pounds. And you've got that. But you've all you've also got this kind of Last Man Standing sort of concept, because so many other things that people would do, aren't there. I want to do something, what can I do? Oh, I can do martial arts.
Jaredd Wilson:
As a generalization martial art had an online presence still. So, people have been stuck at home looking, you know, hey, I've always wanted to take martial arts, what's in nearby me? Like, oh, they do you know, European long sword. That sounds awesome. Let me see what that is, you know, whatever it happens to be.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And so, all of those things together. My suspicion is that a year or two from now, if we continue to do good things, if it doesn't lead to, you know, a bunch of new, low passion schools, opening people to trying to fill gaps saying, oh, there's an opportunity here and I don't... It's just a cash grab. As long as it is primarily good schools opening and remaining open. I think we'll actually see numbers go up probably two to three years from now.
Ando Mierzwa:
I love hearing that.
Jaredd Wilson:
What's Cobra Kai season three came out so you know.
Jeremy Lesniak:
It didn't hurt. It didn't hurt and HBO renewed warrior surprisingly for season three.
Jaredd Wilson:
CW has a teenager's show Kung Fu which is somehow supposed to be based off the 71 but isn't.
Jeremy Lesniak:
We had somebody on the show part of that.
Jaredd Wilson:
Sorry.
Jeremy Lesniak:
No. Okay. You don't have to like everything out there that's martial arts.
Jaredd Wilson:
Yeah, but I always kind of support it like you said, you know, because if if you don't support this one there won't be a next one.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Like my argument for that was great. Yeah, I watched it. Did you watch it? You're the reason, it's your fault.
Ando Mierzwa:
I heard how much you liked it. I was like, it's not even going to try.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Forget this guy. Don't like anything he likes.
Ando Mierzwa:
Look at that shirt he's wearing I don't trust this guy's taste.
Jeremy Lesniak:
What about my shirt? It's like my favorite shirt. I wore my favorite shirt for the show for you guys. Me too. Yeah, it's great. That's like... We should find a way to do a vest for martial artist. But there's something that's not... Is that really a vest? I don't think that's a vest because you tend to wear that over their arms. We need like another layer like a color coordinated like matches your belt over garments.
Jaredd Wilson:
Again, you can look like a tuxedo so you know we're going back to the formal dress.
Jeremy Lesniak:
There are so many options there.
Ando Mierzwa:
Someone needs to jump on these formal martial arts where I'm telling you it's going to be the biggest thing ever. scooping neckline make no sound you know bow tie there or scarves.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Scarves color match scarves. You know, if we developed a style of martial arts that targeted hipsters. I mean that right there. If we found a way for people to train ironically and wear some strange clothing, we could probably double our number.
Jaredd Wilson:
Like we could call it beards and belts.
Jeremy Lesniak:
You know, the problem I've seen with parodies of hipster related stuff because he can't tell if you do it. Well. You can't tell.
Jaredd Wilson:
We have to get Matt Page involved in Master Ken.
Ando Mierzwa:
Did you see that look? I love it.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Well, I was trying to imagine Master Ken dressed as a hipster. And that was funny. And it was kind of my focus. Well, it's been an hour for an hour.
Ando Mierzwa:
Yeah. Holy smokes. Yeah, I feel I haven't offended you enough. I need to go quick.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Lightning around.
Ando Mierzwa:
No, I'll go contrary on that. Instead of doing that I'll say congratulations again on 600 episodes. It really is such a nice salve when you're when the world does seem chaotic, like you said to have something that's a mainstay. It's just persistent. It's there and having your podcast constantly on my feed. Like well Jeremy, still go and look at us Jeremy. Still go on terrible headline here. Bad things happening over there. And well, Jeremy still going. There is a lot of reassurance that comes from that. So, congratulations on being like a beacon out there for people to at least focus on sometimes they well at least I'll spend a nice, a nice half hour an hour with Jeremy let's know what he's talking about. Because you're also as a person very consistent. We pretty much know what we're going to get and some of that we like so it's cool.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I appreciate the backhanded compliments. We don't backhand compliment people in martial arts radio. I should go on T shirt. Well, I want to say thank you to both of you. And, you know, I believe I've shared this with the public before and I'm fairly certain I've said it to both you before but in the early days, you know you guys were both going before me. And in the early days.
Jaredd Wilson:
You lapped me a lot so...
Jeremy Lesniak:
Just because someone shows up to class more often and doesn't mean that they're whatever right however you want to gauge. The fact that you both were here and willing to share and willing to work with me has been a huge part of why I still enjoy doing this six years later. Because there are plenty of aspects of my life. I suspect yours too, and doesn't take long looking at media to see people getting really upset that other are horning in on their territory. And here we are, you know, we're doing similar things, we are competing for similar audiences. But the point is, in a lot of industries, this would be, you know, what you're doing something is very similar to me. Maybe I'll respectfully, you know, look at what you're doing. But we're friends, right? And like, and that really means a lot to me. And I think that is a perfect indication of martial arts in the martial arts mentality. Because how good are you as a martial artist, when you show up to class and nobody else is there? You suck, right? Like you can only do so much you need other people's bodies, you need that, that feedback, that immediate feedback. And so that's something that I get from the two of you and means a lot to me. So, thank you for being there. And continuing be there. And being here today.
Ando Mierzwa:
That's beautiful. Jeremy, thank you, especially coming out of the quarantine and the lockdown where we've all been isolated. I think the point you just made on all levels rings true. It's like we need each other to be our best. And so, whether that's through training, or whether that's just through speaking or just pooling resources. Absolutely, I 100% agree. So, thank you for consistently and now that you're bigger and better than us. I mean meme. I'm sorry, Jaredd, now that you're bigger and better than me that you're still reaching out and allowing me to come out here and say hello. So, it's back at you. Thank you.
Jarred Wilson:
Yeah. And again, congratulations for 600. That is incredible consistency and persistence.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Or maybe a little bit of psychopathy.
Jarred Wilson:
Or OCD?
Jeremy Lesniak:
Definitely that, definitely that. All right. Well, you were, um, if people want to check out your shows, what's the best place? Where do you want to send them?
Jarred Wilson:
I think the gatekeeper all podcasts, you know, iTunes, even if you're doing something else, it's usually actually coming from iTunes anyway. So that might as well do that. I'm stopped doing the blog so much. I do the show notes, and everything is just on the Patreon site now. So, it's just patreon.com/martialthoughts. Okay, if you're on Patreon, go for it. If not, just look at the show notes.
Jeremy Lesniak:
There you go. There you go. Ando?
Ando Mierzwa:
He basically just said, come and find me. Good luck out there.
Jeremy Lesniak:
It's almost it's almost the Kung Fu cliche of you can't.You can't find my show. I'm not going to let you listen.
Ando Mierzwa:
You got to earn it if you really want it, come find me.
Jeremy Lesniak:
When it's time you'll find it.
Ando Mierzwa:
That's right. I'm on the other hand, I got a welcome door a wide open that come on in people fightfora happylife.com. We'll get you there. I welcome everybody. Come on by. Cool.
Jeremy Lesniak:
All right. And if you're listening or watching this, you already know how to find this show. So, I'm not going to belabor that. But thank you to the listeners, the viewers. You know, I've always said I don't care how many people watch or listen to the show. I just care that you know, some people do, because otherwise I'm just a crazy person. You know, talking to me, at least here. Now I'm talking with friends so that that's a lot better.
Ando Mierzwa:
Or are you?
Jeremy Lesniak:
You’re really good at like, just pulling that rug out, man. You're just like I get going. You're like, oh, that's like Oh, wait, I lost a foot. I had two feet down. I'm on one foot. Valuable skill. It has to keep you on your toes. Thanks, everybody. And we'll be back.