Episode 578 - Kyoshi John Payton
Kyoshi John Payton is a martial arts practitioner and instructor. He is the Director of American Shobukan Association in Massachusetts.
The way things are now, the division, and the things that we have now, at the end of the day, we can still put on our belt and gi. We can all just go train and it doesn’t matter who you voted for, the color of your skin, or what religion you have, we all just get together and do our thing. None of those things matter.
Kyoshi John Payton - Episode 578
For someone who found out about Martial Arts from a co-worker in a pizza parlor when he’s 15, it’s amazing to know that he had a long career. Kyoshi John Payton started later than usual but he’s developed a passion for martial arts that has got him wanting for more. Kyoshi John Payton had a pretty decorated competitor but when it’s time to hang the hat, he went into a quest for more. Kyoshi Payton, who’s a good storyteller, tells us his journey to the martial arts. Listen to learn more!
Show Notes
We mentioned Billy Blanks, Mafia Holloway, Nick Cerio
Show Transcript
You can read the transcript below.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Hello everybody and welcome. This is whistle kick martial arts radio with today's guest Kyoshi John Payton. I'm Jeremy Lesniak, I'm your host for the show. I'm the founder here at whistle kick. We're everything we do is in support of the traditional martial arts. What does that mean? Well, if you want to know what that means go to whistlekick.com. Check out everything went on over there, sign up for our newsletter, visit the store and use the code podcast 15 to get yourself 15% off everything in there, that's one of the ways you can support all the work that we're doing. Now of course this show is one of the many things that we do and if you want to support the show, go to whistlekickmartialartsradio.com and buy support I mean, check us out. Have a visit. Sit down. Check out some episodes, check out some transcripts or photos, videos, links social media for the guests, all kinds of good stuff over there we bring you two shows a week. And why do we do that well we're trying to connect you and educate you and entertain you as a traditional martial artist. And if all this stuff that we do mean something new yeah you can make a purchase. But you could also, I don't know, follow us on social media. You could tell friends about an episode, you could pick up one of our books on Amazon, leave a review for the podcast or support our Patreon. If you think the new shows are worth a whopping 63 cents apiece. Not to mention all the back episodes then consider supporting us for a whopping $5 a month, go to patreon.com/whistlekick and sign up meaning throw a couple bucks a month and we'll even give you, original exclusive content that you're not going to find anywhere else. I don't know that I've ever met. Today's guest, but we sure have a number of friends in common. Now, all but guarantee we were in some of the same places at the same time, Kyoshi John Payton spent years as a high level competitive martial artist touring the world. And for many, that would be enough to hang their hat on and say, I've accomplished a lot, I've achieved great martial arts life. But when he sat down competition, that wasn't the end he picked up something else. And it was a quest, a hunt for more. And on today's episode, we talk about not only that competitive side and the pretty incredible origin story that brought him into martial arts. When we talk about that second act and what that's led to and the shift in training and personality and attitude that it's yielded. It's a great story a lot of fun. So, here we go with Kyoshi John Payton.
John Payton:
Yeah, I've listened to, obviously, a ton of the, of your stuff and I really enjoy and I can't tell you how honored I am to be part of your group now. You know, I hope I can live up to expectations.
Jeremy Lesniak:
There aren't any. So you're good. You know, it's funny I was engaging with someone who posted a few comments on on the YouTube channel overnight and they said something about, they hope that maybe one day they'll live the martial arts life that's, you know, prominent enough that they get invited on the show or something and I was like, I think you're missing the point.
John Payton:
That's not the point, right yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
No, the point is that we all have so much more in common. Yeah, then we have more that binds us than divides us however you want to say.
John Payton:
Absolutely.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Because I mean, the only reason anybody knows who I am as a martial artist because of this show. Otherwise I would just I would be your very run of the mill martial artists who just likes to train and hang out and, you know,
John Payton:
Talk about other martial artists.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah, you know just shooting the breeze about what we do and why we do and I think that because we have, what we say it a different way. We don't have quote unquote heroes the way most industries hobbies pursuits do. Yeah, right, if you grew up playing football you have any number of people you can look at and say oh like that person. Right, so much have that right and so I mean I'm not going to be able to create that, I'm not that. So instead we're going to different angles saying, hey, you're not alone.
John Payton:
Yeah. And everybody just seems to have it you know when I listen to all the different people and I'm, you know, I've heard of some of them, I'm friends with some of them, I'm you know close personal friends with some of them, and some of them I've never heard of before in my life, and then they go into their story and you know some, you know, Vietnam vet Marine who trained in Okinawa for 30 years, I'm like holy crap that guy's got an unbelievable story, you know, and it's just amazing that everybody, like you said, there's so much more commonality, and everybody has a cool story, you know.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And I think when you look at those stories you see that because nobody's martial arts, starting point is that different from anybody else's like some of the specifics might be, but there are only a handful of reasons anybody who starts training, the reasons they stick around may be different. but the Genesis is so similar that we start to see. Oh, that person is not that different than me, they just made a few different choices in what they trained or why they trained or you know where they are.
John Payton:
Yeah. What I really enjoyed from listening, you know, probably listen to 20 or 30 interviews with different people and you know some of the other subjects that you covered. But mostly just interviews with it with individuals kind of telling their story. And it just, it just struck me that, like, YouTube's can relate to these people like they're just like you said they're just regular guys just going ahead, pursuing their martial arts career and doing their thing and we're all it's like, every single person I listened to it was like they were talking to me. Because, you know, I had half, you know, half of this, what they had going on, I had that going on also, you know.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah. I wonder where we would be as an industry, maybe even as a world. If instead of focusing on the differences. You know oh that's not the right way to do that or your, you know, your rank is a legitimate because the person that promoted you didn't actually earn their belt from so, you know like, though, if we didn't focus on that crap and focused on the love of training, and the betterment that it brings to all of us, where would we be?
John Payton:
Yeah, I'll tell you and it's funny you say something like that I've always thought that you know martial arts is a little microcosm of the world like a dojo is like a little microcosm of the world, you know, and we have, you know, some of the dojos our, you know, our really good kind of illustrations of the good in the world and some of them maybe not so much, I've been around a long time, I've seen a few that maybe not so much, you know, maybe they don't embody but the good of the world and the way things are now and the division and things that we have now, you know, at the end of the day we can all still put on our little white gi and put on our little belt, and we can all just go train, and it doesn't matter who you voted for or what color your skin is or what religion you are, we all just get together and we just do our thing, and none of those other things matter.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Completely agree, I completely agree. So here we have one of those kinds of rare episodes where we were we start off we just kind of roll, if we just roll.
John Payton:
Oh, absolutely.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Okay, cool. So then, I do want to take it back a little bit and, you know, you can start.
John Payton:
So, it's funny I just I wish I had a great story, I wish I got picked on and you know I got I got bullied or something and...
Jeremy Lesniak:
It's probably the only place, anybody says I wish I'd gotten picked on.
John Payton:
You know, I wish I had a really cool story to tell you but you know what it was funny I was 15 and which I, you know, was actually turned out to be a pretty good age to me to start because maybe if I started when I was three or four years old, maybe I might not have hung in there maybe you know, something would have left a bad taste in my mouth and I want to switch to a different pursuit or something but 15 was a, it's a, it's kind of a rare age to start because most 15 year old kids are thinking about girls and cars and, you know, the homecoming and these, you know these types of things in their in their high school in their regular life and you know for, for some reason for me. 15 seemed to be a great time to start but anyway I got a little job at a pizza place and I wasn't even really supposed to be working there because I didn't hire until 16, but you know I told them back then, you know, they didn't really check on anything and you know there wasn't any online anything to go check on it so when you know I went and applied for the job and he says you're 16 right I said oh yeah I'm 16, and he believed me.
You know, I mean I was almost 16 I was like 15 to change, you know, and I saw me I'm 16 and you know so he hired me and I started working there and there was a kid there, who was like the shift manager and he was into Kung Fu, and he used to would be cleaning up late at night, we'd be doing dishes, we'll be doing this and that and cleaning up after the day. And he used to. Please tell me the stories about his Kung Fu class are that the other. And looking back I'm pretty sure most of the stories, he told me were, you know, elaborate fabrications and, you know, taking some liberties on certain parts of what really happened. To Put it, to put it mildly, but I believed them I was 15 years old and I knew zero All I knew was you know Kung Fu from, from TV and you know, we used to watch Kung Fu Theater on Saturday mornings and all the old Chinese Kung Fu movies. I didn't know anything so when he told me these things I kind of believed it.
So it was funny, was a Friday afternoon, and my dad came home from work, you know, change this shirt. What would you say Dad, you want to get involved with some martial arts so costly Kung Fu really, you know, at the time I you know I played baseball, basketball, hockey up here in Massachusetts in the northeast, you know everybody played hockey, everybody played football. You know that's what we did. And he says really he says you know what do you do that, I said what was a Kung Fu place you know next town over and we go check it out. Let's go. So we hopped in the car and we'll go down and he, you know, we get down there and there was a class in the afternoon going on and it was a it was like a Green Jade Kung Fu or something. And so we went in, we sat down I was watching that the instructor came over and introduced himself and he talked to us and he explained it you know it's gonna be probably three or four months before you throw your first kick, they'll just be over there in the corner and we'll show you how to punch for a couple of months. 11:05 other gave us a flyer with a list of prices and such, you know, we wanted a few more minutes of the class and everybody was doing their thing, which is pretty cool you know. So we left, my dad says what you think, said three months, stand on the corner, punch for three months. I didn't know. I'm not really sure about dice. So we talked about a little bit on the way home. Okay, you know, we'll think about it. So, we're driving home, and we're getting ready to drive right by our street, you know, we'll get up to the street, this is what about the karate studio on the other in the next town over, you know, what about that place? And I said dad you know it's tired. I'm tired. It's Friday afternoon, let's we're driving right by the house, let's just go home he says nah John, come on let's, you know, let's go up and check the place. No, Dad I don't want to go its okay, so my dad dragged me up there kicking and screaming. Okay. Who would have known you know, 37 years later here yeah but my dad drags me and up to the other place, kind of, you know, against my will.
So of course we get there and we walk in and the door opens, upstairs was like the dojo, like the workout area, downstairs was like the boxing gym where all the bags that ring and everything where this guy would walk in the door shots, there's a guy in the ring, and he's holding focus mitts for another you know younger kid who's hitting the targets. And the guy steps to the ring he comes walking over and he's this monstrous guy in this little skinny 15 year old kid and he comes over and he shakes my hand he introduces himself, he says, Hi, I'm Billy Blanks.
And I said, Hi Mr. Blanks, I'm John. My dad said I'm john also, you know, I'm Jr. You know, so we walk into Billy Blanks' Karate school over here in Massachusetts, and he talked to us for a few minutes brought us upstairs we wanted a little bit of class to what people up there and they were sparring and it was they were going at it pretty good as best I can remember. And we walked out of a place. My dad says what do you think? What do you think he goes, I think son, if you're gonna do Karate, I think that's the guy you should be doing it with. And that's how I know
Jeremy Lesniak:
How right he was?
John Payton:
And that's how I met Mr. Blank, my first instructor. Yeah, just walked into his dojo on a Friday afternoon one day.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Random.
John Payton:
Just random, I had no idea. You know what, anything about him what he was, you know, what he was going to become afterwards and everything else and. Yeah. So that's kind of how I got started and yeah so that was Friday I went to class on Monday and off I went with learning to be a tournament fighter and a boxer and a kick boxer with Mr. Blanks.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Well, it's quite the education from the flight, the person with, with some heavy credentials, you know, I'm sure we've got some younger listeners coming, I don't know this name and I'm going to encourage you not to pause and go Google because you're probably gonna end up with the wrong stuff. Yes, if you just search and that's unfortunate.
John Payton:
It is unfortunate is, you know, because there's certain things out there and you know this was well before, you know, Mr. Blanks was known for Taebo. This was you know I met the 28 year old Mr. Blanks, you know who basically was the best conditioned athlete I've ever seen and was probably the best tournament fighter in the world at the time. And, you know, that's what we focused on, you know, that was that was how, and I had no idea what a Karate tournament was, never seen one, never heard of one never wasn't at all interested in getting involved in any martial arts events any sport fighting of any kind.
But, you know, at that time, you know, if you were in Mr. Blank's school, you are a tournament fighter, you know, you're gonna boxing, kickboxing tournament fight so that's kind of, you know, that's kind of how I got started. It's funny I, you know, people ask me, you know about, you know how I got involved with what I'm doing now, and I said you know I kind of had like a, like a two kind of tier martial arts life. One was kind of a career, and one is kind of a journey. And my career, you know came for the first, you know, 10 or 12, or 14 years of of my training, you know, with Mr. Blanks and starting off in Karate tournaments and eventually making my way onto Team Paul Mitchell. And you know, fortunately, luckily, and through God's good graces able to, you know, travel the world, the country and then the world. You know, representing the United States and competition and you know that's kind of. That's kind of the career aspect of it and then that one that kind of ended, you know, now I wanted to kind of go back to the roots and kind of figure out where all this came from it. And what am I doing and I, again I had that kind of childhood dream of the most I think young martial artists, no matter what discipline you're involved in. I think everybody has this kind of this fantasy of going to the old country and training with one of the old masters with the little long white beard. You know what I mean and learning to speak the language and that's kind of I always had that kind of that kind of fantasy in my head and, you know, so you know I retired when I was 30. It's funny, I kind of promised my mom that, you know, I wouldn't do this after age 30 and, you know, so I wouldn't I wouldn't have brain damage from getting hit in the head so much. And, you know, fortunately, I was able to reach, most of my sport fighting goals by age 30 so seems like a good time to call it quits and kind of move on with away from the career part of my martial arts life and onto the journey part of my martial arts.
Jeremy Lesniak:
So let's go back because you know we got we got a chunk. And anybody who spent time in competition understands that you know that kind of cycle of of passionate training competition, and either the pride in success or the dedication, you know, kind of redoubling your efforts in, whether you call it defeat or, you know, not standing on top of the podium, so to speak, you know there's a, there's some momentum there, and you get on that conveyor belt, and a lot of us get on that conveyor and we stick around for years I mean it was on it for, for a couple years you were on it for much longer than I was.
But there must have been something. Prior to that first competition that kept you around, you weren't use as you said you can join the school because you wanted to go to Karate tournaments you joined the school because you wanted to learn martial arts and you didn't want to stand in the corner and punch at the Kung Fu school for three months. Something day one, day two, day three, kept you coming back for that next class before you could even get on that conveyor in it and I hope the term conveyor doesn't come across disparaging that's not how I may mean it just can be a very focused pattern of training, the prior to that focus pattern, there was there was something that kept you around, what was that?
John Payton:
So, it's tough to say, but I think I was always involved in team sports, because that's kind of all there was. Oh, if you lived in the northeast if you're from my area from my neck of the woods up here you played hockey. And also we did all winter, and in the fall we played football and in the spring we played baseball and in the summer we did all of those things, you know, throughout the summer depending on what we could, you know, you know, if we could, if we could get to the rank of we could get to the ball field that won't happen but I think what really looking back I didn't know at the time obviously all of this is hindsight, I didn't know at the time but I think maybe the individuality of the whole thing is what kind of really kept me going like, what I did. If I was successful, it was because of what I was doing what I was thinking what I was feeling, if I was unsuccessful, it was because of me. It didn't have to do with the team I didn't have to share anything or share blame. I didn't have to share the accolades, I didn't have to share winning or losing. It was kind of just about me, you know, and if you know if I'm gonna to do this I'm going to have to work harder and if I fail. I'm going to go back and redouble my efforts and work harder, like you said, you know, though I think that's what really kind of drew me to kind of the tournament thing, in addition to, you know, have a one of the top fighters in the world is my teacher, and all the other students, you know, beat the crap out of me on a daily basis and not wanting that to continue, you know, wanting to improve my skills to the point that I wasn't getting beat up every minute, but I think it was the fact that it was just me. You know, it was no team, it was just me. I got a chance to get in the ring with another person and do my thing and, you know, and I think that's probably what kept me going in karate at the beginning before the before the tournament career kind of took off, I think, I think maybe just, you know, the individuality.
Jeremy Lesniak:
There's a tone. What you're saying that suggests a really solid work ethic. Was that something that you had when you started training?
John Payton:
I think I did, but I had to cultivate it. I think a lot of, you know, a lot of backtracking a little bit I think a lot of parents they want to bring their kids to martial arts dojo because there's a lot that can be learned a lot that can be instilled in young kids minds and, you know, the goal setting of the belt system and the hard work and the discipline and the confidence and the focus and all of the things that martial arts provides for young people. You know I kind of started when I was 15 and then, you know, by the time I was 16, 17, you know, I think, you know, most of those things are already fairly instilled or ingrained. But I think the martial arts training can cultivate those things it's like, you know, you can you know you for just ordered and then you polish a sword and it takes a lot longer to polish the ship sword than it does to forge the sword. And I think that's kind of what it was with me. I think I'd had that kind of hard work ethic again back in the 80s A long time ago. You know, aging myself a little bit here but back in the 80s. You know the old football coaches and hockey coaches when I was coming up they were hardcore guys it wasn't like it is now, you know, things have changed a little bit. Back in the old school have a hockey team and a football team I mean you really work hard and they instill that discipline in that rugged determination and those types of things, you know, to make sure the team did well so I think I had that into me. But I think, I think my martial arts training kind of cultivated it I think the martial arts training kind of polish the sword, so to speak.
Jeremy Lesniak:
It makes sense, I got it. Okay. All right. Well, there's a difference between training and a competition focused school and joining the most. I think I can say this, the most prestigious martial arts competition team that has ever been. Those are along the same path but quite a distance from each other. If you spend time in competition, you know, Team Paul Mitchell. And if you spend time in competition you have aspirations to grow and move on. That's probably the target. So when did that enter your vision?
John Payton:
So, he was funny. I kind of got kind of thrown in to the whole thing. Mr. Blanks moved to California to pursue his next level and his dreams of moving on with his martial arts journey. In the late 80s 88 or 89. And so, you know, it was at that time that I continue to train with him traveling back and forth to California. But, you know, I was back here and he was out there and my family, my life was here. So, you know, do a different couple of different students that were either direct students of Mr. Blanks or kind of corollary students that had trained in other dojos that were doing things so I was kind of training there and doing those, you know, kind of bouncing around training, and then it kind of an opportunity arose that I could kind of take over a dojo that was closing, so you know I was 20 years old at the time. And, you know, I wanted I basically needed a place to train because I wanted to pursue that tournament. I was doing okay. In my tournaments, my local events and such but nothing, nothing on a national or international scale, for sure.
And, you know, so I opened up it's funny I opened up the karate studio in September of 1990. And I was at a local event, and I had been doing okay and I've been fighting with a fight. The Paul Mitchell guys from time to time if I made it up through the, you know, up to the finals of the semifinals I'd get to find a few, you know, a few of the Paul Mitchell guys here and there. And I was doing okay and I was you know starting to kind of develop a little bit of a regional kind of reputation of, you know, just working hard and being a pretty good fighter. And, you know, right around the same time that I opened my Karate studio. You know I got the coach your team Paul Mitchell, Mr. Rodriguez came on raft at one of the tournaments it's funny I didn't even win I actually lost. I lost to the captain of team Paul Mitchell. I didn't win the match. And he came over and ended asked me if I'd like to come down and train with the guys down in Rhode Island and see about joining the team. I mean that was just that was it. That was the day that was the day that dream came true.
And, yeah, I think maybe I just I stuck around long enough and and made enough of an impression that they forget to take a shot with me. And I thought, you know, no way I can do this I didn't, I didn't deserve this, but, you know, they gave me a shot and I just, you know, I just made it made it my goal to live up to it. You know, and I think that happens a lot in martial arts I think maybe sometimes you feel like maybe you didn't. You didn't deserve it or you didn't earn it, but it's more of I'm going to kind of live up to that. And I think that's of how I felt when Paul Mitchell, kind of a departmental people kind of approached, you know, I want to try to live up to this. And again it goes right back to what you said earlier I redoubled my efforts and just decided that, you know, now I have to start really training hard. And that's it.
Jeremy Lesniak:
You if I'm doing my math right, you were really young,
John Payton:
I was 20. Yeah,
Jeremy Lesniak:
With a school for being on the team.
John Payton:
Yeah, I was. It was right around, I spoke to I opened up the school in September of 1990. And, yeah, I turned 21 in December. Yeah. So,
Jeremy Lesniak:
What did your parents think of that?
John Payton:
It was funny they you know I mean open, having a business and that whole thing the good news was is that it was kind of turnkey just because it was another school that was closing. And I was friends with the gentleman that was closing a school. And you know, it made it really easy for me to just talk to the landlord, you know, have to have the lease changed into my name like we kept the phone number I bought all the equipment from him. You know what I mean so he moved out I moved in, and. And off we went. So it was a good opportunity. If we had to go from scratch and I needed, you know, 10s of 1000s of dollars to get the business up and running it probably wouldn't have happened because my mom and dad probably wouldn't talk me out of taking out those loans. You know, but it was a really good opportunity I was very fortunate to have it so they were actually pretty supportive of the whole thing.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Nice. And so, what are the next few years look like, did you have a full time job or a day job?
John Payton:
Yeah, I did at the time, and I tried to do both. I tried to teach karate full time and work a full time job and it really didn't work out. So it's funny I moved. You know I made a deal with my mom and dad, you know any chance I could, you know, move back into the house for a while. See if I can make a goal but with the Karate studio and of course my mom and dad were happy to help. Wonderful people so yeah I moved back home. That's how I funded the karate studio for the first couple of years.
Jeremy Lesniak:
You're not the first and wouldn't be the last.
John Payton:
I think you're right. Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And, you know, 20 to 30, 10 years of being on that team which you know from my knowledge of that team means you were competing frequently. And, as you said, across the globe. It was, I'm going to guess, if not the top priority on your list number two.
John Payton:
It was number one and nothing was even remotely close a second.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Okay. So tell me about your training. And what that looked like let's start there.
John Payton:
So fortunately, a lot of the guys on Team Paul Mitchell local from the New England started off as a very local kind of team Paul Mitchell was at this international team with, you know fighters from Europe and places like that on the team. It started off as a New England, kind of based team and there were, you know, eight or 10 people and they were from Connecticut and Rhode Island and Massachusetts, you know, places up top here in the northeast, so it started off small, and it kind of, obviously grow into what it is now.
But I was fortunate to have, you know, World Champion, National champion, very good people that I could get in my car and drive to and go spar at their dojo. You know, and train with these people. You know, Pedro Xavier, and Chris ramp hold the call the guys from Boston Taekwondo, you know, guys like that I mean, we have access to all that we could get together all the time to train. So, you know, there was no shortage of really good training for me and I was very fortunate to have that. So that's, you know, we basically we did one of one of the things that I learned.
One of the many things one of the most important things I think I learned from Mr. Blanks was how to train alone. How to train by myself, I didn't need a sparring partner, you know at the time, every spring a couple times a week, but to just be able to drill in train until, you know, you're almost ready to pass out along in a row. I think that was a big part of what I did. And I don't think everybody can do that. I think that has to them has to kind of come from within and I think, you know, it has to be, you know, kind of has to be taught. You know that it's doable; you know you don't always need a training party. You can do this by yourself and again we kind of circle back to leave individuality alone.
And I think that, you know, that really helped me as far as my, you know, my sports fighting career went. Just being able to go to the dojo or at, you know 10 o'clock on a Friday night and train for two hours by myself. I think that really made a big difference. In addition to obviously all the awesome sparring partners I have leased for.
Jeremy Lesniak:
You know the time that you were on the team with the time that I was just getting started as a competitor, you know so all those names are those are names that I was looking up to back then. Maybe one day.
John Payton:
Yeah, me too. Yeah, it was really like that too. It was really a dream come true for me.
Jeremy Lesniak:
So what about the travel, have you done much traveling prior to being on the team?
John Payton:
Whatever I could afford, I drive to, you know, there'd be a big event in Boston, big event in Rhode Island, big event in New York. You know, and so I'd do three or four of the of the national tournaments I could just drive to and then you know once or twice a year or jump on a plane and fly down to Florida for the US Open or something like that. Just do what I could pay my own way. And just whatever I could afford, which wasn't a lot at the time and then you know obviously once we got. Once I got on the team. You know, they picked up the bill for that so obviously you know we were traveling, you know, 12 to 15 national events a year and we were in and out of the country, you know, five or six times a year, some years, you know. Yeah, like you said earlier just really pretty busy schedule as far as travel goes, Yeah, definitely.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Think about those early days any fun stories that came out of international travel as a, you know, a young kid from the northeast?
John Payton:
Yeah, I mean I just, you know what, it's funny I tell my own kids now when we, when we come along. Any kind of experience that I think they need to pause and take stock of it and try and make sure that they understand the gravity and the importance of whatever it is, you know, I wish that I kind of stopped at smell the flowers, a little more. You know, you know would go to Italy, would go to go to France, or go to Germany and you know it'd be so super hyper focused on like, you know, on my fight, that, you know, we'd go, you know would go sightseeing and then I wouldn't enjoy it as much I wouldn't know what my mind was somewhere else. You know when I should have been enjoying all the travel and it's almost as funny as they want. You know you were young yeah but it was in a way I was almost too young to really appreciate all the different countries. You know I had the opportunity to go to all the different cities here in America and then I had the opportunity to go to. I think maybe I missed out a little bit, I think looking back now I would have stopped and smell the flowers a little bit more that's for sure.
Jeremy Lesniak:
But maybe you wouldn't have been as successful if you were built that way.
John Payton:
Again, 100% accurate. I was just so hyper focused on that and maybe, maybe unlikely to think I could have done both but I think you're probably right the way the way my mind works and the way I'm built Probably not. I think that's safe to say.
Jeremy Lesniak:
So that 10 years on the team there's, I would imagine there were some call them transitional points, points where you can look back and say, ah, this brought me to the next level. You know this match was something I reflect on often you know, any place like that lines in the zone you can point to?
John Payton:
I absolutely do and I think most, most athletes that you know are competed at a high level of matter what they do are going to have are going to have kind of like you said a transition point or a turning point or something that changed something that clicked. People talk about oh well and after this, it started to click for me. And so there was a fighter back in the 80s and 90s called Mafia Holloway, I'm sure you recognize the name and certainly, also from Boston. One of the best middleweight fighters that ever lived. Just a super fighter he was on, you know, Trans world oil team before you know before you know before Team Paul Mitchell really kind of kind of moved to the national, international stage. The Trans world team was the best Karate team in the world. So, mafia and I were kind of, you know, we were kind of rivals, we were fighting in the same division, we were competing in the same events all the time it was usually me and him. You know when it came down to it for the final match, you know, more often than not, it was him and I, it had to figure out who was going to be first and who was gonna be second, and it was funny I lost. I lost in a tournament in maybe like the second round to an old fighter, it was a good fighter, not enough nobody famous not a top competitor but I lost my match. And we went to the next tournament and I lost another match. Again, same deal, good fighter but not that upper echelon kind of fight.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Not somebody that anybody watching would have expected. We could call it an upset.
John Payton:
Definitely an upset. And it's funny, and mafia and I being the rivals, we were still reasonably good friends comes over he sits down next to me. He says, What's going on. He says, you know, of course, and of course he went on to win it without much of a problem. So it was I gifted him to nice tournament wins in a row. And he says what's going on. So, you know, he says you know this is supposed to be, you know, this stuff is supposed to be you and I up there. Every one of these. What's happening is going on. I'm not really sure. I said, You know, I haven't quite put my finger on it. And he says what kind of what kind of training do you do when this I told him what I was working on he says, you know, do you go into the gym, you know, 38:16 so he says do you go into the gym at night by yourself. I said well yeah and puttering along a lot. Do you go into the gym at night, like late at night all by yourself. And I said, not really. He says, think about it. Something to think about, you know, get in there, do it all by yourself. So I wasn't really sure exactly what it meant. It sounded it felt kind of cryptic.
So I started getting to the gym on Friday night, on Saturday night I started training at like midnight. All by myself, you know, middle of the night everybody else is asleep, you know, driving back and forth to the gym roads all by myself. And I started training, really late at night all by myself and what happened was it, it got me back to my roots. I think maybe that I got away from that a little bit. And it kind of got me back into my own head because I was by myself, it was freezing cold in the dojo. I was there at one o'clock in the morning while whoever I was fighting was sound asleep. I wasn't sleeping, I was training.
And that's kind of what I needed to get me back focus to get me back where I needed to be I needed to know that I was training. When my opponent was sleeping and the next tournament. You know came right back when the next event. The next event after that I want the next one after that, you know, I went on this three or four tournament, you know, run. And actually beat Mafia, you know, along the way a couple of times. And it was absolute turning point in how I trained and how I approached it, how I approach to training, how I approach the tournament. And that was one of the things that one of my fiercest rivals fiercest opponents gifted me that day that he just came over and sat down next to me and asked me what was going on.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Really wanted you to get better.
John Payton:
You have to get better, to get 100%. And yeah, I mean he just, you know, he gifted me, you know, that one little nugget that he thought would help. And out of all the people I thought would help me would ever be him. And what he said, you know, made an absolute difference in how I approached everything from that point forward.
Jeremy Lesniak:
So you said you said that when he gave you that advice you weren't quite sure what he meant. So, obviously you tried it. You figured it out and it worked. So, what would you call it, is it remembering where you came from. was it that you got, you know, kind of too high on yourself because you were out there and you were successful and you weren't training with as much intensity as you had when you started, you know, what was it that that gift opened up for you?
John Payton:
Well, I think, a bunch of. I think all of what you said, to a degree. And as best as I can figure out, you know, looking back, it was, it was more just making it less about anything else or anybody else or whatever I was wearing, whoever's name was on my game, and I got back into, into my own head. I got back into concentrating on me, and not necessarily what other other kind of external things, whatever they may be whether it was trying to run a full time dojo are trying to live up to the team Paul Mitchell logo on my back or whatever it may be, it just became about me. And it kind of brought me back to that original kind of reason for training and sticking with it. You know, and I think it absolutely probably saved my tournament career.
Jeremy Lesniak:
When I asked the question about transition points and milestones It sounded like there might be more than one. Was there another one you wanted to talk about?
John Payton:
Well, I think depending on the time. The level of importance, maybe at the time seemed bigger than it was looking back, for different things. But I think, you know, obviously, you know, having been asked to join Team Paul Mitchell was a huge turning point that brought me from just being able to drive my, you know, my crappy beat up car to a few tournaments locally, you know, to be able to get on a plane and fly to Europe and fight, obviously a huge turning point.
And you know, going back before that, you know, Mr. Blanks moving to California and, you know, be kind of having to figure it out back here with a couple of close friends. You know, that was a big turning point and then you know, my story with that was, that was a pretty big turning point. You know, and I think one of moving on to kind of the next kind of phase of my martial arts life. I started training after, you know, I couldn't really make it back and forth to California enough to just train with Mr. Blanks, all the time and he was moving on with different things in his career he was doing other stuff he was making movies and he was developing Taebo and these types of things. You know I had my own thing going on back here so I started training with Professor Nick 43:54. And he's kind of, you know, he's just a local legend up here in Scotland, and he's just, he was the top guys attempt degree black belt in his resume just off the charts, all the, all the different people he trained under his level of expertise is just, you know, unbelievable.
So I had an opportunity I met him through some tournaments and everything 44:18 every year and he was always you know head referee and guest instructor, guest personality and most of the big events up here in the northeast. So I was training with Professor Cirio and unfortunately he passed away very unexpectedly of cancer. So that was kind of a big transition into kind of the next phase of my training, and it was right around the time that I was I was finishing up my tournament career and I was getting ready coming up on that 30th birthday. And, you know, I had to find, you know, I had to go to plan C, you know Mr. Blanks was Plan A, and Professor Cirio was Plan B and I didn't really have a plan C.
But I did have a friend. Up here in Rhode Island, who was on Team Paul Mitchell for a while. Before I was, his name was 45:13, and I knew that he, you know, he traveled back and forth to Okinawa, and he was part of a very traditional or classical Shogun Ryu system. So I talked to him, and that kind of brought me to where I want it to be as far as you know what I want to go back to the beginning. And I don't mean to the beginning of my tournament career, to the beginning of my Karate here I mean the beginning of the day in general, you know, traditional Karate. I wanted to figure out what that was all about. So I got involved with, 45:56 and, you know, through him I met, you know, two or three unbelievable instructors here in America. And, you know, before I knew it, I was on a plane to Okinawa to kind of fulfill that childhood dream of going to the old country in training with the master.
Jeremy Lesniak:
There's a team that's coming up. As you're talking about your life as a martial artist. And that is one of kind of we could call it travel, but I'm gonna term it seeking. You know, you sought out martial arts you continue to seek out, Mr. Blanks. You sought out what you could get from competition, sought out Professor Cirio, sought out this other gentleman in traveling and just. This is not the typical story. We talked when you first came on the call, how much we have in common this piece right here this is not something that most people have in common with you. What was it about martial arts or, you know, maybe the loss of your first two instructors that had you hunting in this way because most people when they're confronted with those life events are going to do one of two things they're going to stop training, Or they're going to say, who is the best I have available to me within a reasonable travel distance.
John Payton:
I think I just always felt like from day one, that there was just always going to be more I was like dis optimist I was optimistic that there was more to this. You know that there's gotta be something more, and with tournament fighting and just sport fighting. I think, you know, I, towards the end, you know, when I was finishing up I just felt like this more this. There's got to be more to this and I just want to find out what it is, you know, and I think going back you know that childhood dream of I think all martial artists, you know, going to whatever country their art of origin is and finding the roots and finding a master who trained under a master who trained under the founder of the system and in that lineage and in trying to just find that truth. You know, because as you know, living here in America, there was a lot of untruth with martial arts here. There's a lot of, you know, snake oil sales and, and such here in America, that, you know, I think you feel like you want to find the truth. And I feel like maybe the truth is where it all started where the origins are. And then you can, you know, kind of work from there. If you can get back to the beginning, to the origins, and you can work forward and then you can kind of work it out for yourself. What's the truth and what is, you know, and I think that's what kind of motivated me after my tournament career.
Jeremy Lesniak:
So it was a hunch? Right? You believe there was truth but you didn't know what it was yet.
John Payton:
No. Yeah, 100%.
Jeremy Lesniak:
It was a hunch.
John Payton:
You know, I had a hunch. But I will say, I had a hunch, with. I had a good educated hunch, because not really thought of as an educated hunch, but it was absolutely an educated hunch because I did have access to a couple of people's a gentleman in North Carolina. Vietnam veteran who, you know, he's been training for, you know, 60 something years. And, you know, I felt like he knew the truth. And he, you know he was, he spent a lot of time in Okinawa with the Masters back in the 60s and 70s. And then I had the gentleman another mentor of mine in California, who just when I watched him move in when he spoke and when he went he explained things that I want to know what he knows, you know. How does he know how does he know all that, where did this come from, you know, and so I knew there was a hunch, but I was pretty sure there was more to it because I know these two guys. So, if they know it. Okay, maybe I can figure it out too. But I also knew where both of them came from. And both of them. The one thing they had in common was they were in Okinawa and they spent a lot of time with the Masters, so I figured on a hunch. I figured that was a good place to start.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And I hope you don't take that word. They told me that that way what you know I'm constantly reminded of this statement, this very succinct statement that has come up for me constantly in my martial arts growth. When I think back to my original school there was a gentleman who earned his black belt when I was probably seven or eight. And I remember going up to congratulate him with my mother, and she asked him, What does it feel like to have a black belt? He said he realized how much you don't know. And I'm hearing in different words but I'm hearing that from you now.
John Payton:
Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
You knew enough to know how much you didn't know.
John Payton:
And I think that's important. You know, when you don't know what you don't know. That's not good. That's a recipe for stagnation. You know you're gonna quit, you're gonna stop, you're gonna find something else to do. Okay. The good news was and I think it's probably like this for most martial artists. I would hope is that they have access to someone that you know, has that kind of knowledge so you know it can be attained, that you know that this person just knows more than you and you want to know what they know.
You know, it would be a shame if you know you'll learn everything, you know, you think you've learned everything your teacher knows and then you go ahead and quit because there's nothing beyond that, you know, they say, a dojo needs three things. It needs students, it needs a teacher, it needs the teacher's teacher, you know, and I think I was very fortunate to, you know, I was the teacher, but there was always the teachers teacher I always had people that knew a lot more than I did. You know, and I was fortunate to have that because maybe not everybody does.
Jeremy Lesniak:
So what was that first trip to Okinawa like?
John Payton:
It's funny. A gentleman by the name of Pat Hailey. Unbelievable martial artists, he owns a dojo in Chico California. And he was just, when I watched that man Luke and I watched and I started to get what he was doing and the things he would say, and the way he would say them and his depth of knowledge, just really inspired me and I just approached him one day and said you know hey next time I knew he took you know students to Okinawa. I said you know wouldn't would it be okay if I tagged along, he said of course John no problem. You know next year when we go you get more than one. And I went with him that first time and you know it's like, you know, anybody that's been there I'm sure a lot of listeners have been there. Anybody that's been there when you, when you first go the first time just you know breathe in the air and putting your feet on the ground, eating the food and walking around and, of course, being in in a dojo with an Okinawan master.
For the first time it's like you know, that's it. You know you've arrived and it's just something, you know, kind of unexplainable and I think some people, maybe not so much maybe they took it for granted and other people that it's kind of one of those transitional moments, those martial arts life changing events. And for me it absolutely was.
So when I was there and again, what it did. It reminded me that I don't know anything. And I need to be here, like long term, like the week and a half or whatever how long we were there. We did a lot of other stuff, we trained every night but we also you know we went here, we went there and we did all the touristy things took a lot of pictures and bought a lot of bought a lot of junk. No, we just did that. And I realized, you know what, I need to be here like I need to be here longer than a week to figure this out. So on hunch. I love that word now. So on a hunch. You know, you know, I figured I better talk to Sensei and see if I can figure out a way to stay here, kind of long term so we got back, get back to the states and called up Sensei Hailey and you know, what can I do to go stay there I know you were there and you were there long term and my other instructor in America. 55:38 Sensei he, you know he lived there obviously he was stationed pair during Vietnam and he spent a lot of time there in the 60s and 70s, you know, how can I do that? I don't have any connections on offense. We certainly look into it.
So, the Grandmaster of the system, one of his students who was nice time at the time. Had a dojo, not too far from the grandmasters dojo where we trained on my first trip. And we had gone over there and we met him he took us out to dinner and was really, you know, his hospitality, you know, was fantastic and took care of all of us while we were there. Since like Haley said I want to talk to somebody there maybe you can go stay with stay with Gibbo Sensei and you can stay there for for a while, you know for a long term. You know, like six months passed and, you know, I got a, I got an email from Gibbo Sensei top student who spoke pretty good English at the time I spoke not a single word of Japanese. Along a goodbye was the extent of it at the time. And he told me that you know he spoke with Gibbo Sensei and it was acceptable that I come and stay and, you know, give me some contact information and we started emailing back and forth and we organized the time and, you know, four or five months after that. I was on a plane to go stay with Gibbo Sensei and stay there long term and train. That's kind of how I got introduced.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Wow. And what was that experience like? The only word that's coming to mind for me is magical.
John Payton:
It was magical. Again, it was it was kind of like a martial arts movie, kind of, you know, opportunity kind of coming, coming through and you see stories like this I mean I'm not the first person to do this and you know people have come before me that have gone and trained in Japan and Okinawa and China and stayed with their master and lived in the dojo and lived in the house. You know, became a 57:41 you know someone that lives with the master would be considered and you know there's been a lot of that before me I certainly didn't invent this by any means but it was, you know, getting off that plane for the first time, and going to meet Gibbo Sensei who didn't remember me at all, because I was part of a group of, you know, 15 or 20 people, you know, a year and a half. Before that, you know, so obviously he didn't remember me and he spoke zero English and I spoke zero Japanese So, you know, there wasn't a whole lot of communication happening. Fortunately, my good friend Yaki Sensei spoke really good English and he could email and everything and he kind of organized everything for me. And, you know, it was just getting to the dojo. And just being there, and living there on my own, all by myself. I've been away from home, you know, 1000 times, but not in another country, not by myself and not for weeks and months at a time. So it was. I just decided that I'm going to do the best I can and embrace this and try to learn the language and trying to understand the culture and just learn as much from everybody there as I possibly could. And that's kind of, you know, that's kind of where it all started.
Jeremy Lesniak:
How long were you there?
John Payton:
The first time I was there for like, just over three months. So it was a long enough time that, you know, I was living there. It wasn't just visiting. But it was also a short enough time that I could you know that I could get home and continue to, you know, deal with everything that you know my responsibilities and things I had at home. So it was perfect timing actually, long enough for me to cultivate some very close friendships. I learned a ton, but by no means did I learn it all. So, obviously was the starting point of our relationship with Gibbo Sensei and his students that, you know, just completely changed everything in my focus went from it. Was just, you know, it was kind of, at that point I realized that, you know, I'm not a tournament fighter, the goal was not to win my next match. You know, and those type of things that this was, I'm here to seek the truth and so that the career part of my martial arts life stream, you know, change the journey part of my martial arts life. You know, I think it was that three months that kind of solidify that. 1:00:42
Jeremy Lesniak:
So you said, everything came. So when you came back to the states after three months, how did those changes manifest?
John Payton:
Well, I had a lot more to offer my students as far as, you know, training and things like that. You know, just physical stuff but for me kind of personally and kind of emotionally, I was always, even if I was you know, even if I was young, 21 or 22 or 23 years old, I was always the teacher. I was running my own commercial dojo. Trying to make a 1:01:20 you know, trying to make sure I'm training for my next fight, winning my events. So it was, you know, I wasn't really a Karate student during you know, my years, you know, my competition years. I was a student for a while and then I opened a dojo and became a member of Team Paul Mitchell and so I was a fighter and I was a teacher. I wasn't a student, that part was missing. When I came home after that three months, I was a student. I was no longer a fighter and I was no longer a teacher. I was gonna continue to teach and offer my students whatever I could offer them but I wasn't Sensei, I was a student. And I think that is probably the biggest change that happened with me.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Was that difficult?
John Payton:
No.
Jeremy Lesniak:
1:02:31 or anything like that?
John Payton:
You know what, you would think it would be in that, I've had that questions kind of pose to me in different ways over the years and I have to say I've given in a lot of thought. And it actually wasn't. It was really easy, like super easy because I knew what I wanted. I was focus on it. And I knew I wanted to be a student. And I hadn't been in a long time and I miss it. It was something that I missed. It was really important to me. So, yeah. It wasn't difficult at all.
Jeremy Lesniak:
So we kind of got this, you know, probably called two chapters, two martial arts chapters. You know, your 20s younger getting started as martial artist competition and then on the other side, this realization that you wanted more or at least different. I would call it more I think it's more on you. You've been on that path from doing the math for a little while and it sounds like you are just passion about it now as you were maybe more so. So, next question then becomes what's next? Are there goals? Is there more that you’re hunting for?
John Payton:
So, over the year travelling back and forth to Okinawa and training with my mentors here in America, who's still to this day, you know, we'd fast forward it to with what 4 years later from you know, I kind of started 1:04:24 training in 1997. So, 24 years later. You know, I realized that I still don't know anywhere near as much as those guys. And I have so much more to learn from them and I try to get my hands on them and train with them as often as I can, one being on the west coast and one being in North Carolina it's difficult especially during these times, haven't seen anybody in a year or so. I just, I think it goes back to that and it just it does it just sounds cliché but I just, the more I know, the more I realize how much I don't know. And I'm still and I think this is where it where it really, this is where kind of the rubber meets the road, I'm still that student trying to find the truth and trying to seek the truth that I was in, you know, early 2000s when I went to Okinawa for the first time.
I'm not sure if I have something else that I want to kind of transition into another chapter of my life. I think that I just really want to keep trying to understand this chapter, because again it's cliché but, you know, it takes a lifetime to learn this and the one thing I have learned is that is absolutely true as corny as it sounds. You know, it is absolutely true what that black belt said to your mom, you know, how does it feel to have a black belt, well you just realize how much you don't know, I'm still at that point. You know I'm still at that point where I know how much I don't know. It's funny. Yeah, it'd be okay with it. You know it's not for everybody. Knowing that you're really not you've been doing it for 35, 37 years, maybe 36 years now. You know, you realize that, you know, you really don't know all that much. That's not easy for everybody else martial artists or, you know, anybody that's been doing this for a long period of time, you're kinda crazy because you really spend all this time and you put in all this hard work in you realize man, I really don't know any of this stuff I have a lot to learn.
And you have to be the right kind of person to be okay with that. You know, and I think that's what kind of binds all of us we're all that, that crazy person that doesn't mind, you know, not knowing what we really would spend our life working on not being all that good at it.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Right, imagine any other industry or pursuit or hobby and say, you know, I've been at it for 37 years and, you know, just keep finding all this stuff that I don't know I just I don't know. I've never heard that discuss about anything else besides martial arts.
John Payton:
Yeah, me too. And it's funny it you have to be the right kind of person for. It's not for everybody. I mean, I don't have to tell you, I mean, imagine if you know we all had every student that signed up at our dojo was still a student at our dojo. You know we'd all have 10,000 students. You know, it's not for everybody. But if you give it a chance I think it could be for everybody, but I think this kind of that, that journey of seeking that truth and just always, always moving forward and always trying to find that next level. And having people that are at that next level or beyond that next level, to kind of motivate you to keep working. You know if you have that, I think it could be.
Jeremy Lesniak:
If people want to find you online, you know websites social media anything like that you can share.
John Payton:
Unfortunately I'm a little bit of a dinosaur when it comes to the social media. I don't have a Facebook page or anything like that. But the students have, my students have a Facebook for our organization in Okinawa, my instructors organization, it's the American Shobukan on Facebook, and anybody that would want to contact me they could they could just email me directly. My email is johnpayton1@comcast.net. Yeah. Anybody, easy enough to find me and you can email me. You know when you can, you can see a little bit about our organization in Okinawa. The American Shobukan and that's on Facebook. It's not my personal Facebook, my students kind of running. I don't even know how to get on the thing to be honest with you.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Hey, you know what, social media is certainly has value, but it is not without its drawbacks.
John Payton:
Yeah, yeah, but my students do a good job with it. So, yeah. Easy enough to find if anybody's interested in talking about anything I said that's the thing I just love to talk like this. Love to hear other stories I love great stories and yeah I love, I love listening to the podcast, listen to everybody else's story because I always find something that just brings it all right around to my journey as well, like you said at the very beginning, I think before we even started recording that we have, there's a lot more commonality than the difference in all in everything we do and all of our stories and I think that's absolutely true.
Jeremy Lesniak:
All right. Well, we're about to roll out to the outro but I would like to give the guests the final word. So what are your final words for the people listening?
John Payton:
Oh man, you put me on the spot. I'm not sure if I have anything super profound,
Jeremy Lesniak:
You are on the spot for over an hour.
John Payton:
I don't I'm sure I don't have anything super profound to share with anybody but if anything, just for me what worked for me was just, you know, kind of having that that proverbial empty cup, just always being able to, you know, find somebody and just learn from somebody from anybody always having that you know that that student mindset. So we can always, you know, we can always learn and making sure that cup is empty so we're not, you know, these external things aren't blocking our learning they're not they're not stunting our growth, you know just making sure that we can, you know, we can keep that child's mind and move forward and keep growing because no matter how long you live, no matter how many years you were involved in this, you will continue to learn. You just have to have the right mindset.
Jeremy Lesniak:
You know, it's always fun to talk to other martial artists I get to compare notes and learn from them. But on today's episode, I got to talk to someone who I've known about for a long time. I don't know if you picked up on it, it was probably about a third of the way into the episode where some things clicked in for me and I went. That's right. I remember this guy from back in the day, I remember him from competing. I remember his name, I remember seeing him in tournament rankings and staying, that's somebody who's putting in the time and really doing it and to be able to talk to him today, and to hear those, those stories those origins. But more importantly, to me now. What that all led to, to know that there are others and I knew before but to have it reaffirmed that there are others who are constantly searching for more and better and the desire to improve is just so powerful to me and I hope you took something from it as well.
So, Sensei, thank you for coming on the show. Thanks for your time. Thanks for sharing those great stories and hopefully we can connect in person at some point in the near future. To those of you listening go to whistlekickmartialartsradio.com check out those show notes, check out the photos that we put there check out the transcripts, all that good stuff.
We recently updated the website, complete overhaul. If you've got feedback on how we can further improve it, let us know. You can email me for this or any other reason jeremy@whistlekick.com. And if you want to support what we're doing here at whistle kick, remember we've got a store at whistlekick.com, we've got the Patreon patreon.com/whistlekick. Share on episodes reviews, all that good stuff, please. The more you help us the more we're able to do and bring you and support you as a traditional martial artist, if you see somebody out there rocking some whistle kick gear, say hello. And if you've got guest feedback, suggestions, any of that good stuff, hit me up jeremy@whistlekick.com. Until next time train hard smile, and have a great day.