Episode 566 - Sensei Daniel Kornguth
Sensei Daniel Kornguth is a martial arts practitioner and instructor based in Vermont. He is a pacifist and an avid punk rocker.
For the longest time, I thought that my punk rock ethos was at odds with the essence of the martial arts. And yet I came to understand that, in fact, it is not.
Sensei Daniel Kornguth - Episode 566
Coming in having a pacifist mindset and growing up experiencing violence in almost every place, martial arts was not an easy sell for Sensei Daniel Kornguth. A self-confessed punk rocker, it has always been Sensei Kornguth's principle not to resort to violence when dealing with a situation. Listen in as Sense Daniel Kornguths tells us his journey into the Martial Arts, how he faced the challenges of having been diagnosed with ADS, and his experience of opening and closing his own martial arts school.
Show Notes
Sensei Daniel Kornguth
Show Transcript
Jeremy Lesniak:
Hello! This is whistlekick martial arts radio episode 566 with today's guest Sensei Daniel Kornguth. I'm Jeremy Lesniak; I'm your host for the show and the founder of whistlekick. And everything we do here is in support of the traditional martial arts. If you want to know more about what that means, go to whistlekick.com that's the place to learn all about our projects and our products. It's also the easiest way to find the store where you can guess what buy stuff. And if you buy stuff, maybe you'll find a shirt or who knows all kinds of stuff is changing all the time. And you can use the code podcast 15, and it will save you 15% off and it lets us know that this show, leads to sales, because you know, the show cost money; we're doing everything we can to make it pay off. And by pay off mean deliver value to use, so maybe you'll do something for us. What else could you do for us? Well you could share an episode, you can leave a review, you could buy a book on Amazon. There's a ton of stuff you could do, just think about what would whistlekick, what could we do? What would make Jeremy smile today? Go do that, and I'll be thrilled. If you want to check out the website for the show you can go to whistlekickmartialartsradio.com, we released two episodes every week. And it's all under the guys of connecting, educating, and entertaining the martial artists, the traditional martial artists specifically of the world. That's you. That's probably you, hopefully it's you, if not, why not start training. In addition to those other ways I mentioned that you could support us we've got a Patreon, patareon.com/whistlekick. Not only is Patreon a place that you can support us and help us offset the cost of this show, but it's a place where we give back even more. In fact, yes. For every bit that you contribute, we've got different tiers over there we're going to give you more stuff back. You can give us two bucks a month, we're gonna give you some blog posts, you give us five, we're going to give you some exclusive audio. Ten, you get a video show, and it goes up from there. So check that out, patareon.com/whistlekick. Today's guest had some great stuff to say, I don't know how to do an intro for this one. We had a wonderful conversation. We talked about, yeah, martial arts and how he got started and all that, but this one more than most defies any kind of neat packaging up for the introduction section so I'm not gonna try. I'm just going to let you listen, and then all I'll see at the end. That's it going good. Welcome to whistlekick martial arts radio.
Daniel Kornguth:
Thank you for having me.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Thanks or being here. Appreciate your time and you know we just had a pretty good chat audience, you know, one of the things I'm always very aware of is that when you listen to an episode you get the intro, and then you get the beginning of the conversation where we define it. And for some guests that's immediately when they sign on to zoom. For others it's 10, in this case 15 minutes of conversation before we get there and I'm always amazed at how different that, let's call it pre show conversation is we started to get into some good stuff and I'm glad we kind of stopped because I want to make sure we share that with the audience.
Daniel Kornguth:
Yes, I actually found our dialogue released already. That's where I got me thinking about things and discussion topics.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Good. Well, you know, I get a feeling when I bring a guest on, you know, is this going to be a synced episode, or is this going to be one of those episodes that yeah, we keep an eye on the time but if we weren't doing that if we were sitting down and we'd be having a couple drinks or just, you know, at a restaurant, you know, might turn into 2, 3, 7 hours of conversation and I've got a feeling you're closer to the latter than the former.
Daniel Kornguth:
And I do like having conversations over drinks.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Oh, perfect. Maybe we'll have to make that happen you're not that far away.
Daniel Kornguth:
If COVID ever goes away.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Talk about a, well, no let's not talk about it. Let's not talk about because everybody's talking about it and let martial arts radio be a bit of a reprieve because I need it even if nobody else needs it, I need this time to talk about other things like martial arts, we're talking about martial arts. So, if we roll your tape back, if we look at your origin story, you know, we want to play superheroes. You know, what would issue one of the Daniel comic book look like, you know?
Daniel Kornguth:
I would be sitting in a therapist’s office, and I'm not joking. And we would be discussing the idea, as I come to grips with this reality that I have been diagnosed with attention deficit disorder. Oh, in my early 30s. My therapist who was just this great guy at the time said, Wait, wait a second, I thought you thought you knew you had attention deficit disorder. And I said, Well, no, I actually never it never even occurred to me I just thought it was one of those blanket diagnosis is that they throw around willy-nilly he's like no I knew you were ADD a second you sat in my office six years ago, because you asked me to turn my water feature off, because it was distracting you and only, attention deficit disorder people do that, because most people find it relaxing. And that would be where the sort of journey begins. And from there, I started doing research because I had been very reluctant to the diagnosis, because I was afraid that it would be like a crutch, but I would say, oh, you know, of course I can't show up on time because I'm ADD, or of course I can't pay my bills because I'm ADD. But what I started learning was that discrete symptoms of this condition are really fascinating and when you start kind of teasing them out of all of the crazy cultural prejudices, it actually can be a diagnosis like this can actually be a great tool to restructuring one's life. And for me, a lot of these seemingly disparate phenomenon I've never understood. You know why I was a certain way or why my brain function the way it did. I came to understand a couple things. One, I mean we call it, attention deficit disorder. And I think a disorder is already an unfortunate pejorative term because to have a brain like mine and like so many others, has a lot of benefit. And so really cool parts. It's when you try to like, squeeze it into the box that is our culture that doesn't always work out so good, but also the diagnosis was a great tool for me to come up with some basic strategies to ameliorate the negative effects and cultivate positive facts of the condition. So, I did some research and in almost every book I read. They said, you know, eat less carbohydrates, less processed foods, less processed sugars, more proteins, sleep better, get a physical fitness regiments, and then most of the books would tell you to go and get on you know Adderall or some sort of speed and time lapse speed, your brain, and a few of the books mentioned the mindfulness practice. So at that time in my life I had neither a mindfulness practice nor an exercise regime. So I started sort of doing the things that one might normally do like go to the gym with a friend, which I despise because I'm a very social person, very gregarious, and the gym culture is 100% anathema to people like me. You're supposed to all be together, and not acknowledge each other, which just doesn't make any sense but I guess that's what you're supposed to do some people love that. But for me if I'm in public working out, I'd like to be able to say hello and ask them questions about how to use the treadmill. That was all not well received. So I didn't like the gym too much. And then I tried Ariel fabrics, because I live in Brattleboro Vermont where we have a circus arts school. And you can, like, you know, do aerial fabrics. And I actually like that a lot for. It didn't get me in shape and I started losing weight. It also provided me with more flex than I've ever had before that point. But the class structure was one where, you know, we'd go into six or eight week cycle, and then there'd be a lag and you'd sign up for the next session. And so in that way I started to lose my ability to maintain, like a pick up momentum. And then my, I was, I also play Dungeons and Dragons, and I don't mean to, you know, out, Andrew here, but we've played Dungeons and Dragons together.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I don't think he would mind. I'm pretty sure he said that at some point publicly.
Daniel Kornguth:
Okay good, coz otherwise you'd have that but one of my Dungeons and Dragons friends, trained at a martial arts dojo here in Brattleboro he was trying to get me to come because I explained my struggles with finding a good physical fitness regimens, um, and he talked about Karate. And at that time I was 100% against the idea. My only concepts of Karate were something like Napoleon and Dynamite, you know where you have this guy in Star Spangled bender, parachute pants and a mullet, shouting at you, Bow to your Sensei! I'll teach you what I learned after six seasons in the octagon and you know that sort of stuff. And to my mind okay so I was, I was an avowed pacifist and very anti, you know anti-authority, punk rock ethos. So, all the things that he was describing sounded like all things that I would hate. But he's like, Look man, come and give it a shot. If you don't like it you know you get a couple sessions free, no one's you know signing a contract. And if you don't like it you don't have to come back. So I went to my first session. I'll never forget it. It was in a in Patrick 10:31 martial arts school when it was at a different point up on Putney road into kind of what is now a tattoo parlor. And I was taught a basic form a four directional form and a few stances. And I remember thinking to myself, okay. You know what there is absolutely no way I can stand the way they're telling me to stand up, doesn't make any sense from a physiological point of view but I'll do my best. The class was over in a blink of an eye, I got a good sweat going, and I saw this amazing community where there was in the sense of community there was communion, there were people gathering together and mutual support of one another's advancement and personal development that struck me right off the bat. And, yeah, there were a lot of formalities. That looked a lot like mindless cultish lavishness that that were triggering my punk rock punk rocker within me. But I came back after the second class. And one of the things that I liked and we did briefly mentioned this, and of course, I made a silly joke but the truth is I do pick up forms quickly. I didn't know that about myself. But after the second class I'd have this simple four directional form down my form was god awful but I had the basics of the structure. And strangely I found a place that worked for me, I found a place where I could work out, get a sweat. Gets some physical fitness going. I had no idea that the mindfulness component would be something that I cherished down the road and was really meaningful to me. But at that moment, all I knew was, I was doing stuff with my body that made sense. I was engaged in an activity that took me entirely out of my daily life. And for that I was really appreciative. And I, that's sort of the, how I embarked on this process basically in a nutshell. I was diagnosed with ADD. I had to go find something to do. And I stumbled reluctantly into martial arts.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Well, I want to go back and maybe we end up, if that was issue one maybe we'd end up it issue zero, as we talk about this is part of your origin story. I want to talk about the pacifism. I think most people are. Yeah, I don't know too many people who say you know I love violence. And so, the majority of the world seems to be in this kind of default sort of neutral place, but to say that one is a pacifist to be says that there's a piece of a story there. And I'm wondering if you might share whatever that might be.
Daniel Kornguth:
Yeah, and I would actually love for this to be one of the sort of threads of our conversation today. So passive isn't for me was something that I adopted. First of all, I guess the first thing I need to say is at this point, and even before I started exploring martial arts, which by definition is an activity that is in some way linked to the concept of combat, as well as exercising power and relating to in some way, relating to violence. So, even before I became a martial artist. I didn't like to turn pacifism. Although my, the way I used, or the way I, what should I say the way I believe the pacifism should be expressed was actually in many ways that it was passive, it was just not only non-violent but a lot of avoidance of conflict with any type of variety. So, you know, interpersonal conflict, professional conflict, social conflict was something that I was very resistant to an internal conflict so you know things about myself that maybe needed some improving. But in terms of how I expressed it when people try to engage me violently. I 100% refused to engage in violence. And it goes back to just a sort of simple event when I was 12 years old I had a best friend and he and I were really close, maybe it was 12 going on 13, I'm not sure right around that time, I must been 13. And I got a girlfriend and I thought that I was, you know, kind of the coolest guy around, probably, and my friend didn't really appreciate my new sort of heirs. And it escalated into an actual, like fistfight right so we and we were really, you know, 12 or 13 so we had it all planned out it was gonna be almost like a duel and we're gonna meet at this park. And, you know, long story short, it was over pretty quickly he gave me a lot of talk and broke my nose. But it was a really profound moment, because I realized at that moment from the injury that I sustained that I never wanted to. I felt that it was, I have no right to use physical force to injure anyone under any circumstances, and that was no way to resolve conflict. Period. And from there, I led my life which is kind of funny because I was actually exposed to a lot of violence. But I didn't really analyze it very closely. But, you know, I got beat up a lot. I used to get in trouble with the law so I had a lot of run ins with the cops who are, by the way, all the ones that I was interacting with were not pacifists I guess whatever the, you know, you seen that many people say they like violence. These guys might not have admitted it but they sure demonstrated their love of violence. And, you know, as I said I was a punk rocker so I, you know, we go to punk rock shows I love to 16:41 and what sometimes experience intentional violence from skinheads or things along these lines. So, in my life, I encountered quite a bit of violence, up until, you know, even up until close to the time I got into martial arts, but my reaction was to not respond with violence.
Jeremy Lesniak:
It's interesting and I'm glad you gave us that genesis, that fight with your best friend and I'm curious what happened on the other side of that did you did you become friends again at some point?
Daniel Kornguth:
Well, you know, we ended up the town I was in he just ended up going to a different school. So we sort of never had any resolution until we were like, in our early 20s, and by then, when our friend circles re-overlapped. There was no beef between us I mean, you know, it's great.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Okay, unfortunately you lost that time but it sounds like that moment, really fueled, a great part of who you are and you know I don't know about you, so I don't want to say this about you, but most people I talked to the vast majority are taught to look at situations like this that in and of themselves, you could say, this was not a good thing, but if I look at it how it changed the arc of my life. I'm actually glad that it happened.
Daniel Kornguth:
I definitely can say that I'm especially looking, you know, there's a couple things I've learned, even as a pacifist and it sort of started there, you know, our bodies are really beautiful and precious things. But at the same time they can really take a look and I have definitely taken a looking. And if that was the first nose breaking that I got it wasn't the wisest. Fortunately, the very next right hook pushed my nose kind of more straight again.
Jeremy Lesniak:
So you just got to make sure that you get them from opposite sides and in even numbers.
Daniel Kornguth:
Exactly. Keep it symmetrical.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Okay. That's important. It's a good lesson for all of us. If you're going to get into an altercation, make sure you choose your adversary, based on their lead hand.
Daniel Kornguth:
Exactly. Right.
Jeremy Lesniak:
So you step into the class you come out you see the community that's formed, and you're, you know it sounds like you really enjoyed that first class, and I would imagine that, since you went in skeptical. There was some kind of deliberation going on as to whether or not you would go back again.
Daniel Kornguth:
Oh yeah, I mean for like the first year, I was waiting for the shoe to drop for me to be like, you know what, I am not, you know, I'm not gonna. So, because I didn't understand, one of the things that I'm so grateful in my life to is that the martial art system that I found and the person that was teaching it was very clear about a couple things. So, we have this rank system in a dojo. But you know, this is, you know, this is the United States in the 21st century. So, while the person is my instructor and or is the owner of the school or both, has a higher rank than me, you know, outside the school, we're just two guns, or you know or two people. And there are skill sets that I have or there's things that I am a master of that, that he or she is not. And so, you know, but in the school, the etiquette and I mean I think that there's a way that the store could even maybe be woven more poetically, but I didn't understand it at first but I eventually came to understand the role of etiquette, and I'm grateful that my teacher expressed it like this. The role of etiquette is not to create hegemony of one person over another actually he didn't use that word but I'm paraphrasing here. You know it's not to say that I'm better than you are superior than you. He is for us to cultivate mindfulness and understand our relationship to one another, from a curriculum point of view. It's like a bookmark for me to understand where you're at in what it is that you're learning and what I should be teaching you and what I can expect of you. From a mindfulness point of view, we're using these, you know its cultural appropriation in many senses, and we’re using these structures that are loosely based on the Japanese culture. In order for us to have a greater awareness of our environment and our relationship to one another. And you know he was really adamant about that and he really did not just talk the talk but walk and walk on that idea. So, while in the dojo you do differ, and you do show the proper etiquette. It's not meant to be this sort of mindful mindless rote reaction. You know, bowing and saying a Japanese expression and calling him Sensei isn't meant to be sort of like a, you know, to indoctrinate you, but actually cultivate your awareness of who you are and the choices you're making which I think I would have probably put a little further down the story arc. Because, you know, like I said that whole first year, I was always chafing under my sort of irreverent punk rock ethos, where I mean it was really kind of always at odds with me to want to make a snarky comment, or to speak out of turn. But I realized very early, looking I'm choosing to be here. I'm choosing to come into this culture. If we're in my house that I'm going to curse and swear and say whatever I want to say, however inappropriate it may be. I'm in someone else's school. And it's not that hard for me to check in and blend a little bit. Blending was never my strong suit it's one of the most important facets of being a good martial artist in my opinion.
Jeremy Lesniak:
What do you mean by blending?
Daniel Kornguth:
Well, that's a huge subject in nutshell. Two things, blending can mean in the very most physical non-metaphorical sense of the word, blending is when you're engaging with someone and you have a shared center. Understanding how you can maintain your own balance in relationship to someone else's. So whether it's when you're sparring or engaging in a drill, it's this idea of blending means working with them with the appropriate amount of biofeedback of of receptivity and resistance, so that each of you can learn. So blending in a sparring situation would just be, you know, working. I mean, like, to look at someone who's great at blending in the martial arts. All you have to do is look at Muhammad Ali, and any one of the YouTube videos of him doing the duck in the weave. And you're like, okay, he's a master, that's literally blending with the fists coming at me right. n a more metaphorical sense, blending means being aware of your relationship with the people around you and in your environment, and not, and neither standing out too much, nor fading into the background too much so maintaining your boundaries and your place in a culture, whether it's a culture that you grew up in, or a culture that is aliens you. Blending means being sort of appropriately integrated into the social spheres.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Sorry for derailing you, but I don't know that seems like important context.
Daniel Kornguth:
Yeah, I love that I mean we're trying a whole bunch of stuff up in the air, and if we're really masterful storytellers we're like dovetail everything and then we'll go off on our merry way.
Jeremy Lesniak:
It'll happen, I have faith.
Daniel Kornguth:
I have faith as well.
Jeremy Lesniak:
All right, so you're working on blending you're integrating, you're in their house, and you're still carrying that I'm doing a little bit of math and I'm trying to guess who your punk band is? Right, because if I'm getting this right, you were definitely, you know, the Green Day, push so are we talking Sex Pistols?
Daniel Kornguth:
Well, definitely Craig Green Day. By the time Green Day came out I was kind of like prepackaged punk.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Right. I heard that from a number of people who had been into punk prior that
Daniel Kornguth:
I'm even a little bit before Nirvana so you know a lot of the punk that I love from that era was more of your, you know, your late 80s and 90s punk so you've got like 25:29 and Ghazi, you know, The Replacements, Dead Kennedys, 25:36 Milkman. A lot of stuff all over the map, you know, Black Flag, that sort of jazz.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Sure. And you know I certainly have not been, you know, I would not call myself a punk aficionado you know I appreciate some of the music I certainly appreciate a lot of the counter ethos. It runs deep and that anybody who's had me in a martial arts class knows that just as you've expressed, you know, you don't talk out of turn but the moment that it's mildly appropriate to do so. I usually have a comment, because that's my nature. And so I'm hearing some of myself in what you're saying and I'm good. Were you able to set that down? At some point, was there was there a moment where you said you know what, I don't, I don't need this is a safe place, I don't need to carry that here, or did it fade away gradually and you just realized it was gone one day or we're still holding on to it now years later.
Daniel Kornguth:
Now, quite to the contrary something. Well, I guess you would say, I hate to say this but a little bit more profound occurred. Good, rather than, so I saw these two sort of drives the more I, the more I learned in the martial arts, and the more meaningful was to me. The more I saw these forces at odds with one another, and eventually there had to be like you said some sort of reckoning. And what it was more of a synthesis and reconciliation, where I came to understand how they're actually not at odds at all. And, you know, we use the sort of symbol of the yin yang as a perfect example right so it's blocking your basic Yin Yang, but it has two elements, the whites of the young still has a black element of the end in it. Likewise, the black of the end has the white of the Yang in it, and the two are in harmony. So, what I came to understand and again I don't think I could have gone to this place had I not gone to the special school that I went to. And I cannot speak more highly of Patrick Donohue and his lineage of showing ruin his other practices that he brings in because he also does go to ruin teachers go through and he also teaches Ikki Butoh which is basically a synthesis of hardcore Jui Jitsu, and Aikido, Tomiki Aikido. So, Patrick cook mindfulness and its role as a very important component to all that he did. And for that I'm very grateful. Again, teasing back in attention deficit disorder, at its very core, one of the most fundamental ways to address and treat some of the negative symptoms of ADHD or ADD is to cultivate mindfulness. What I came for the longest time I thought that my punk rock ethos was at odds with the sort of essence of the martial arts, and yet I came to understand that in fact it's not. Can you take some of these, the importance of etiquette. One is that a kid trying to do, but teach you mindfulness. What is mindfulness if not understanding volition, right choice? So, if you become aware of something you get to make an informed choice about how to proceed. So for me, punk rock was always about not being a robot, not being an automaton, not going through the world with blinders on, not just buying because they tell you to buy. And, you know, wearing the clothes they tell you to wear. But finding your own true voice and expressing it passionately. And all of these protocols are not meant to make you be robotic but the opposite can make you more mindful. So when I came to understand was that my martial arts practice and my exploration of the etiquette, and the you know the appropriate protocols, was not an antithetical to my punk rock, but really at the core, based on the same motivation of not being a robot of not just sort of plodding along and bumping into things that you weren't aware of, but being absolutely aware of who you are and the choices you make and when that reality kind of sunk in and from a, you know, martial arts progress point of view it happened, probably late and I am not proud of how long it took. I was probably about to test for my brown belt when I finally sort of saw those two things weave together, you know, appropriately idea of exercising volition and not being an automaton helped make me understand what it is that I celebrate. And also what it is that I fight for, because by that time I had also still not fully but had begun to reconcile the idea of being a pacifist who's also a warrior studying martial practice, which was not necessarily harder to synthesize, but was a more ongoing and evolving process which also continues to this day.
Jeremy Lesniak:
As you were working through that I'm wondering if anyone was trying to help you along and the reason being is as you're talking about this. I don't think it's a quote but this this cliché notion of better to be a warrior in the garden than a gardener on the battlefield right that concept or people trying to support you, or maybe lead you or put thoughts in your head on this duality.
Daniel Kornguth:
There's only one person who I would have shared any of this with and that was my training partner anything good friend person that got me into the martial arts station samples. I don't know if you've interviewed him but if you haven't, you should definitely be like right up high on your list station. Train martial arts most of his life he's a really profound thinker, very articulate and also a teacher, he also was part of the school that I opened. And so, in many ways, he was my sounding board my foil for a lot of these ideas, and he you know he's a very nuanced thinker so for him it wasn't like, you know, he had to be concerned about, you know, my psyche or or shove stuff down my throat. For him it was always dialogue, and a lot of stuff that he also had already kind of grappled with and came to terms with so for me, like, I had never, you know, I knew, it's not like I never when I was a full-fledged self-avowed pacifist. It's not like I never entertain notions of cating someone's face. I mean, I would say probably I was at least my tendencies were at least as violent. If not, maybe more so than a certain portion of the population. And I used to talk to people about that back before I even thought about becoming a martial artist you know where I'd say something like wired entertains and violent notion and express it. And someone who would say well I thought you were a pacifist and I said, Well, I am, and he would say, I remember this, this exchange and he's like, that doesn't sound right pacifistic to me. I'm like, Well, you know like, there are vegetarians who don't like to eat meat. And then there are vegetarians who love to eat meat. Just because they think about it and want to do it and don't doesn't mean they're not vegetarians. Likewise, it's not like I don't think about how great it would be to you know get in a fight, or solve a problem with my fists. Just I would never do that because I don't, I don't think that's appropriate. I think that makes me more of a pacifist than someone who just is afraid to fight or are just inclined to. That was my again some of my thinking. Leading up to becoming a martial artist and through my through my dialogues with Titian we got to explore a lot of the facets of pat actually in depth. So I did have someone there who could really be a both a mentor and a friend and a companion in that journey.
Jeremy Lesniak:
You mentioned something coz you were talking about that. I mean, we just have to make sure we get there I don't know if it's the next step that we take but opening your own school because we were we had left off; I think you said brown belt. And, you know, I think it's a, it would have been a fair guess from the audience that you would have kept going after that but that's a pretty big hop most people who even earned their black belt never go on to open a school. Maybe you can you can bring us through to that point.
Daniel Kornguth:
Totally. You know, with just sort of stick with my training with Patrick Donohue before I get to that. I'm one of the things that he always taught us and again because I'm a grown up I came into it as an adult. I would just take these things and I could put them in a context. I neither had to accept them as this sort of deep philosophical profundity or, you know, unwavering law. I mean I could just listen and just accept this as ideas and internalize them as it made sense. And he always taught us that, you know, getting your black belt is sort of the equivalent of getting your kind of understanding basic grammar and sentence structure and vocabulary. But, you know, it so you can write coherent sentences, but you're by no means it's the sort of, it gets you somewhere around like in the middle school. Right. So at that point now you can start learning how to write poetry and prose and things along these lines and utilize those tools. But the black belt is just getting the basics under your belt. That's about it. And then your education as a martial artist begins, so he was really adamant about that. So I quickly and fully internalized that. And even though it took whatever it took I mean I can't even remember now I'm sorry to say but I think it was like five years to get my black belt, my foot my shirt on. But, you know, never felt like, oh, how come it's not faster. You know I wasn't, I was in it. Not sure. I wasn't very goal oriented, I did like getting ranked and I love testing, but I personally wasn't concerned about like seeing the black belt threshold as the end point. I definitely saw it as a point on a continuum that, by definition, continues after that so I got my first black belt with Patrick Donahue and 36:36. I also throughout that time did, I did study the Aikibudo with him so I have some cue ranks in in his system of Aikibudo so it's basically like I said to Nicky Aikido and Haikedo Jui Jitsu. Likewise I have some cue rank some basically EQ in Goju Ryu Karate. But, and while I was always training with him I love to visit other dojos. I love to train with anyone who would let me train so anytime I traveled. Usually I'd stick in the ballpark of 37:15 but I would explore a little bit of everything. You know some classic, classic, contemporary mixed martial arts which are heavily based on the Gracie Jiu Jitsu system and other Roos mostly Japanese. Sadly I haven't done a whole lot of Chinese martial arts. I mean, just dabbled in the Qigong and Tai Gi, and Gung Fu, you know, it's always a blast whenever I have an opportunity to do so, but only the dabbling will literally only got so far as to say, okay, I've done that once or twice. I have the broadest framework of what it is, but nothing that I could claim any mastery actually Kingston, and Patrick Donahue always encouraged us to be open to other people's systems, and what they have to say. And to have a very analytical context of, like, kinda right balance between skepticism and credulity, but I'm emphasizing the idea to not dismiss something from your own ignorance. But neither to just sort of come on board with an idea, because of your own ignorance and to always be deferential when visiting other people's schools because you know from his perspective we were representatives of his school. And so therefore, it was incumbent upon us to maintain our best etiquette. Anytime we went to someone else's school, even if they were not formal at all. I've also trained a lot with Taekwondo players, for some reason, so I have, you know, learned a few Taekwondo forms and played around with their systems, strategies and you know the things that they emphasize.
Jeremy Lesniak:
There's a lot of Taekwondo in here.
Daniel Kornguth:
Yeah, I mean the only thing that always made it hard for me is I was never as flexible as most of the Taekwondo players. So, in that sense, my kicks look, you know, a lot less dynamic than that.
Jeremy Lesniak:
That's okay. You know, what single experience do we all have that causes immense pain every time it happens banging your shin on the corner of the bed. It's one of the most painful things right. It just happened to me the other night and it reminded me that I've been doing this my entire life. It still hurts like I'll get out. And, you know, the beauty of a shin is everybody can reach it.
Daniel Kornguth:
Yep, exactly. Thank you. So, and then I mean to give you a quick like fast forward arc ahead. I continue to train with Patrick Donahue, I was awarded the rank of Sensei, as a teacher, I always love teaching, just I just, I love being on both sides of that process. There's nothing like being uncomfortable and learning, and there's nothing that helps you understand your own learning process as trying to convey to someone else. I mean, one of the most basic principles I learned early on is the stuff that was easy for me to learn was harder for me to teach and the stuff that was harder for me to teach was easier for me harder for me to learn was easier for me to teach. So, you know, can they always came easy to me, and I had to really struggle to learn how to teach 40:42, if that makes sense.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Why do you think that is? Why the football?
Daniel Kornguth:
I'm very, you know, because I just sort of learned 40:53. I didn't have to analyze it at any point, I just. They showed me what to do. I went and did it, they corrected me a little bit, I took the corrections. I kept practicing and I can get better. And because it came so easy it never occurred to me what would be the impediments to doing it correctly. You know what I mean, whether it's structural, psychological or otherwise. So when I was in the position of teaching, I quickly learned that one of the hardest things to teach, for me, was 41:23. You know and over time because it's such an important part. I mean, you know, if I was going to give one sort of martial arts anecdote about this incredible martial art experience that I have, it would have nothing to do with warding a mugger, or you know, cracking down, you know a person trying to do violence to someone else or interceding in a violent altercation. It was 100% me. Do you know what 41:54 are?
Jeremy Lesniak:
I do.
Daniel Kornguth:
Yeah, I have a pair of 41:57 as an adult man, you know, I'm going to lie. So you know, I'm going along in my feelings and I'm on my cell phone talking to my girlfriend and I was in a parking lot, and I caught a stone in my Achilles. And they only have one wheel per foot so you know, it stops you right up. When I'm flying through the air, watching the pavement rise towards me and instinctively my hand goes out, you know, check myself. And the second you know the heel of my palm touched the pavement. I tucked and rolled and came back up, and I never even took my cell phone away from my ear, you know, and I just stopped rolling I started walking and my friend who was behind me brushed up and he was incredibly excited like oh my god dang I thought, you know, we're gonna pick your dentures out of the pavement. But, you know, you're still on the phone, you know, and I process them. Okay. Well that wasn't instinctual. Yeah, that wasn't my body, doing what it thought it ought to do that was training that was my martial arts training. And I tell my students and my peers, all the time, you may never have to fight a terrorist. You know, but if you live in New England, you will almost certainly fall. And if you can learn how to fall, then you will be all the money that you invest in your training will pay itself back with 43:31.
Jeremy Lesniak:
It's funny you mentioned that I actually know someone who part of their professional career is taking what they learned as an Aikidoda in Aikido about fall training and breaking that down in teaching the fall components to the elderly.
Daniel Kornguth:
Yeah. And those are the people you know if you can learn it before you get elderly you're even better off.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Absolutely. All right.
Daniel Kornguth:
But so, yes I think we were kind of going to major overarching. And then eventually I did achieve under Patrick's teaching a fourth degree black 44:17 and showing them Karate. And sometime right around there were circumstances, there was a lot of people in his school and circumstances having withdrawn from 44:28 as a formal student. After that time, there's a lot a lot going on here in Brattleboro and in the martial arts in the people who go and train, I was 100% committed to continuing my training. And so I was working in a very ad hoc way for the next year or so, basically in my barn and in my backyard with whoever felt like doing something and I, at that time I was doing a little bit of everything including some, you know, I had a where they call it up. Why am I blanking? What's the? No. I think it's Muay Thai. You know, I had a Muay Thai guy. He and I would come in we do pad drills together, and you know just doing a little bit of everything. And eventually, I hooked up with it with my neighbor who was a 45:31 practitioner. And we did a lot of training and thinking and talking, training and thinking and talking and there were a bunch of kids who were looking for an instructor. And so we sort of, you know, our school evolved really organically just because there were some kids who were looking for some extra, you know, study so we would do some stuff at the Guilford school. And we had a little space in the back of the outer limits gym where we were doing our classes. And then the next thing you know you have an LLC, and an insurance policy and you're defining your curriculum and setting up a school schedule and getting a website. And then the next thing you know we had a really great awesome space in the Cottondale Hill building. And we had some; we had a core of really amazing and dedicated students. And so that's how I opened our school, which was called Songa, based on the Japanese term which loosely is more sort of formally interpreted as a yoga school or school of yoga. I believe it's a Buddhist community, Songa is the Buddhist community and a lot of times it will come into yoga. But for us, we use the term more loosely just to mean community. The Songa is the spirit of the community. And so we were Songa martial arts LLC.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I'm sure as you were getting ready to open that school you were thinking a lot about your journey. And as someone who's open to school I remember that first day I remember standing in front of that class. You could spend years and decades teaching. But the moment it's your class your students and you're completely responsible for them things are different. So I'm wondering that first day, you know, in front of that class, it's all formalized. This is what you're doing. Was there any reflection on the genesis? Let's bring it full circle and knowing that you had been reluctant. When you stepped in there to that? Enter your mind and maybe inform the way that you ran or even still run things.
Daniel Kornguth:
Constantly. Our school did close after two years. But from the beginning from day one, you know, I was always. Well, collectively, my business partner and I, and we brought station samples on as well as sort of leader of the school. There was always a dialogue about how to find that balance between being a legitimate. You know resource, what are and what we hope to emphasize in our curriculum and never forgetting our own, you know, process I mean, my business partner had been training since he was something like eight years old. Right, so he had almost a decade of more of training than I had when I opened the school with him. And, I know that he shared the sentiment that neither one of us ever forgot that, well in fact it was kind of a core principle of his this idea of always operating with an acknowledgment of the beginner's mind within ourselves to be able to sort of kind of keep that perspective through to remind us in, you know, not just for checking our egos but really remembering look, there's a time when you didn't know a single, you know we spoke, we speak a lot of 49:19 right Japanese words that have come to have meaning in the American culture and American martial arts culture, but you know there was a time when I didn't know single one. You know, I didn't know how to count in Japanese. I didn't know. And you know one of my favorites of anecdotes about speaking Japanese is, I didn't know the difference between Getty, 49:40, you know, one's a kick, one's obligation, and one's diary, depending on how you sort of spell it. So I always try to keep that in mind with especially with new students you know when we were starting off a bunch of our students have had some martial arts background so even though it was our first day of classes he sort of was, there was already an established. You know, it was people understood what was going on, they weren't kind of in there with this bushy tailed, you know, night of attack. We had a lot of new students as well but we had some veterans already and that sort of made the transition easier.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Can you mentioned closing the schools or what next?
Daniel Kornguth:
Well, it's been a dark time in the force for Daniel. Closing the school was a. As you can imagine a real psychological and emotional blow and since then, I've been only doing exclusive trainings with individuals who want to kind of focus on specific facets of our curriculum so most of the people that I trained with now, are people who have shared or overlapping backgrounds with me. I don't work formally. We work usually wearing, you know, t-shirt, sweat pants, I still like to work barefoot, a lot but I have some indoor sneakers that I use as well. And so, since the school is closed, almost all of my training has been towards maintaining what I have learned, working with people who have also learned it to some degree so there's analysis and an interaction on that level or training with people who have, they may not have the same background but they have the shared love so I work with, you know, the Muay Thai guy or I'll work with, you know, a couple at a guy. And, you know, we'll be all over the map, a lot of times just doing drills that where there's universality.
Jeremy Lesniak:
As we've spoken the common thread here, you know really is thoughtfulness and analysis. And really, I would guess that early on, you might have called it overthinking. But as we've spoken, it sounds like that thing, that attribute that some might have termed a liability and, you know, as you've spoken. The similarities between you and I are huge open my own school closed after two years you know I mean there's, and there's plenty more and a bit of what you've defined as ADD is very real to me. So I'm wondering if you've been aware of that unpacking that exploration of what you've done as a martial artist and the recognition that it's not what everyone does.
Daniel Kornguth:
Well, I hadn't ever considered comparing myself to other martial artists in that way, or other people in general. I do know that I've had, you know that overthinking impulse that sort of separation. And then that's where the physical part, you know comes in, you know, part of mindfulness, I guess, like, what is it that we have, we had a tapestry up in our school. And it was oh yes, 53:27 which, you know, you take these Japanese terms. They're often very difficult to translate into American mindsets, pardon me?
Jeremy Lesniak:
People will argue about those definitions.
Daniel Kornguth:
Right. And you know, I think there's a place for degree of arguing, especially if the goal of the argument is to have greater understanding, you know, a greater shared understanding, and you know, at the same time, like, I'm not so I'm a formally trained fellow but I'm not really sort of academically rigorous and that has been a bone of contention for me and some martial artists. I do like to think and I do like to analyze, but I'm also happy to just trust a certain extent that my understanding is as good as it needs to be. And as long as I'm trying to make it greater then that's okay. So when you take something like 54:29 can be, I'd like to hear if you have an understanding of the phrase, but my understanding is sort of like a mind of no mind, right so it's this sort of 54:41 is a sort of place that you get to where you are receptive, but not reactive. You are aware but you're not focused. It doesn't make sense there's a bit of on my mind by its definition has a sort of contradiction of terms within itself. So, you know, within that it's been very helpful to get to use the physical components of martial arts and the moving mindfulness practice as a way of balancing what we might think of as separation which would be taking us away from 55:20. You know where 55:21, you are, you're in your mind but you're not stuck in your mind, or you're beyond your mind but your mind is turned off. So, definitely martial arts have helped me. And when I'm physically and more physically fit and more physically active work towards 55:40 which again could easily segue also into, attention deficit disorder, in the sense that I don't know if you know anything about or have done any research but for the mind of a person with attention deficit disorder, when their mind is under stress, and I don't just mean like stressed out like I'm having a stressful day, but under stress meaning, I'm going to ask you, how do I get from here to Minneapolis, you know you'd have to like start working your neurons. For an ADD person when they're under stress, what happens a lot of times their brain actually locks up it shuts down, so they can be the smartest fellow in the room. But what's coming out of their mouth sound like borderline gobbledygook and nothing like the physical fitness component and the physical. You know the kinesthetic knowledge that you cultivate in martial arts helps you ride the wave of your mental lockup. You know your gear, your gear jams and into a more flowing mind state so like I always describe it as surfing. Then, the more I'm practicing the more I'm training, the easier it is for me to ride the waves of my strange awareness’s and mental connections and get away from either separation or sort of brain lock.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I can relate to that a bit.
Daniel Kornguth:
You know one of the things that, you know, I have heard as a reoccurring theme in your programs has to do with the emphasis on the relationship to the formal components of the martial arts and especially when I was opening my own school. And to this day, you know, it's been one of those very complicated and nuanced conversations on an intellectual level, and on an emotional level it's definitely a lovely sort of thing. You know, I had no idea that I would love the regimentation of martial arts, it would have never occurred to me. And yet, it really offered me a full 100% ability to get into a different mindset you know when you put that, why do we wear a Karate uniform. Is it the best thing to train in? No, I wouldn't say it's the best thing to train in. Is it helping you learn any good martial art skills by wearing that uniform? I mean, yeah, if you find a guy wearing a martial arts uniform it definitely helps you out with that. But one of the biggest things I always felt that it did and why I advocated using a formal uniform in our school, even if it wasn't a GI, it could just be. And we talked about what kind of uniform we were going to end up with, and where we kind of got to at the end was the pants of a GI, but a T-shirt and your belt to show your rank, I mean the rank also is a huge subject of conversation. I'm sure you've had, people touch on that.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Oh, yeah. We've probably done a dozen episodes around right.
Daniel Kornguth:
How couldn’t you. I mean it's and the problem is like we talked and talked and talked about it, and everyone that the three people that were involved in my school. Matt Hoffman, station samples of myself. Really, we never argued about it. We weren't arguing. We, at one moment all three of us would think it's the greatest idea on the planet. At the next moment, all three of us would think it was the dumbest idea on the planet, you know, so those conversations were pretty funny because we never achieved consensus, because we never found consensus within ourselves, but for me I often came back to my leaning that the role of rank in a modern dojo. If it's one used as a bookmark for the teacher to help understand the curriculum that you've already been introduced to. Second one being that there are a lot of people in this world that really respond to the 59:50 and the goals, and the achievements, and the recognition of those cheap achievements. I would say that I'm not deeply, I don't deeply love that but I actually also like the sense of achievement that comes with those things. And then the third thing was, you know, sort of, and it really was sad to come down to this, but a marketing perspective, where you can just say look, it's something that people already culturally identify with in America, you know, they understand the sort of ranks they achieve, and from a monetary and marketing point of view. It kind of makes sense. So in the end we ended up deciding to keep rank. And some of those reasons were quite philosophical and theoretically the benefits outweigh the negatives, and some of them were, you know, kind of monitor.
Jeremy Lesniak:
So what's next? What’s going on? Now you talked a bit about your training now and working one on one with people but have you given any thought to the future and your training teaching relationship to martial arts and what that might hold.
Daniel Kornguth:
I really appreciate you asking me that question. I should point out that I had some trepidations about, you know, this conversation, because in many ways the future is opaque, to me, and kind of like when I first started martial arts, you know, I was given this diagnosis, and I knew I wanted to make changes in my life and my plan at the time was not to try to change anything and try to change everything in some massive 1:01:37 but just to take small steps in the direction that I wanted to go and as you asked me that question pointedly, respectfully. And I check in with the answer. The answer is simple, I want to slowly continue to gather the people, because one of the things that I love about the martial arts is that it is a system that you do with others. And yes I do my Kata by myself and I can do calisthenics by myself. I like doing push-ups with somebody doing push-ups next to me. And you can't, you can do 1:02:20 against him sort of 1:02:22, but nothing is like feeling when someone's sharing your shin versus hitting the deck. So to answer your question, you know, I have some hesitation about speaking in grandiose terms, or being too ambitious, my short term goals are to continue training with the people that I train with. And I would be lying if I didn't say that, you know I'm building this artist residency event space here in Guilford Vermont. I have a space that I call the dojo and whether or not it ever becomes a formal school again, certainly invigorating and formalizing trainings with people who are committed to self-improvement on the cultivation of mindfulness and exploring these principles of self-defense physical fitness and longevity. I know that's a really ambiguous answer to your question but
Jeremy Lesniak:
Honestly I wouldn't have expected anything else. You're being open. You're open to possibilities, you're recognizing that the path that you've been on is not been a straightforward one and I would argue that none of our paths are. What's the joke, you want to make God laugh, tell him your plan.
Daniel Kornguth:
That's right. That's a good quote.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And so when I asked this question, and I asked it I think I asked it every episode I tried to anyway. No really, I think, at the heart of what I'm asking is, what are you hopeful for and what's important to you? I think that's what it comes down to and that's what we heard. You answer those two questions but I think its easier question for people to answer to say, you know what you are looking forward to. Because when I ask people what they're hopeful for or what's important to them, there tends to be a lot of self-judgment. And I don't like that filter, a lot of the questions that I asked have come from a lot of refinement over the years, just as we would refine a technique or a form or our strategy in sparring because we're looking to elicit a certain result. That's what we got. So I'm thrilled.
Daniel Kornguth:
Also, there is another important part of it that I mostly struggled with. I've always believed that no teacher can be a good teacher unless they have a teacher. So one of the things I've struggled with and COVID has only made this more challenging, is what's next in terms of my teacher. You know, I've trained with a lot of great people and none of them are nearby. And, I should say, a lot of the people I've trained with are nearby but none of them that were my teacher. So, I've been, I have not been proactive in finding my next teacher. So, there's absolutely no question that at some point that needs to be invigorated.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Well, it mean there's another Greek cliché there on that subject and I bet most of you and can finish that when the students reading. Right. I've gone through phases where I didn't have someone that I would look to and say this is my teacher and COVID aside. You know I now have multiple people that I look to your my martial arts progress. And I'm sure that will change, you know, not necessarily how many but who because it has to because life changes in our martial arts changes accordingly.
Daniel Kornguth:
Yeah. I mean it's interesting. They're one of the things that I've kind of, and my wife's been very supportive of this process with me. But, you know, part of the challenges. One of the great things about having Patrick Donohue in the Brattleboro School Butoh is from where I live right now, I can get to that dojo in 15 minutes, you know. And that's, and he also had a lot of classes. There were times when I trained, and I'm sure you've been in these phases. I would train, seven days a week, you know, while I would go to seven adult classes and three kids’ classes a week. Sometimes you know multiple classes a day. And my life can't quite facilitate that level of commitment right now. But when you start adding instead of 15 minutes its 45 minutes or an hour, then that becomes a significant impediment right now, which is a god awful excuse. And yet it's one that I bump up against quite because, you know, like you said, maybe my teacher is in Brattleboro right this many, but I haven't met them yet or I haven't re-met them.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Right. But, you know, one of my favorite things about martial arts, because I've, the depth, the volume, I guess of my training has fluctuated, a great deal over the time that I've been a martial artist. But one of the things that I found myself saying because people will come to me as a result of this show people come to me and they, they're embarrassed, and anyone who's ever been a martial arts instructor knows this that a former student will come to you. You see them at the grocery store oh yeah I'm gonna. I've really been thinking about coming back to class I pick it I'll see you next month right and it doesn't happen, but they're embarrassed right they feel guilty there's a sense there and doing what we do here and doing what I do on this show. I get people writing me, and I see them at competitions, or whatever and, and they say the same thing. And over the years I found myself responding in a very similar way. Martial Arts is there for you when you're ready, you don't, you don't have to feel guilty. You aren't holding anyone else back, you don't have to carry that burden. When it's time, it's time. And I think that that is for me the most beautiful thing about martial arts is that it is as much or as little as you want it to be in your life. And it's still valid.
Daniel Kornguth:
Yup. I would agree. I love those sort of this might be slightly tangential from that but I love those parts, you know, you get to these points where let's say, you know, you're starting off in martial arts and your teacher is trying to teach you to keep your tongue, your tongue, your thumb tucked in, right so when you're doing a shoot. Okay, now you're just totally tucked in as well. Keep your tongue tucked in as well, does not bite that off. But, you know, and then there comes a point where you find yourself walking down the street, and you see a friend across the street and you wave to them. Or you look at your hand and your thumb is tucked in you are waving some guy across the street with your thumb tucked in, you're like, okay, that's weird. But you know, it's over a decade now into my journey here. I still love seeing all the little things that I have a different awareness of because of my martial arts background, whether it's, you know, watching a movie and seeing. Oh, that guy, obviously, whoever taught that you know whoever taught Tom Cruise how to do that clearly had, you know, military training, probably with 1:10:21, you know, because that's, that's how it, you know, or whatever it is. And to this day, that's a relationship that hasn't left me. You know I may not do my 1:10:36, multiple times per day, as I used to. But I still do my 1:10:42. And I still see the world a little differently. And I owe a significant portion of that to people like Patrick Donohue as teaching samples and Matt Hoffman and Andrew and since I met Butler, and many other people who I've had the great opportunity to train with over the years.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Well, we've covered it. And we, I'm sure as I said at the beginning, we could probably talk for hours more, but I think this is a good place to wind down.
Daniel Kornguth:
I think so as well.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And you've covered a huge amount and I want to thank you for your openness, your candor, your trust in myself and in this audience to share such deep aspects of your story. And, you know, I've got a feeling that we'll probably hear from you again. At some point, you know, especially your ties to Andrew and everything and his growing role in the show shout out to Andrew I appreciate you, my friend. But I'd like you to send us out and you if you've, you've listened to episodes you know how we do this so it's up to you. What do you want to leave the audience with as we roll out to the outro here?
Daniel Kornguth:
Well, I suppose I'll stick with the one subject that we had touched upon I'll end with this is. The idea that through my explorations as a martial artist. The one thing that I have come to understand deeply had to do with this idea of pacifism, and our own waking power, our ability to exercise volition, and to not be automatons and my relationship to the idea of pacifism has changed dramatically in the time that I've been training as a martial artist, going from the idea that, you know, it's been so great to be in a safe environment to observe people's relationships to violence, to the strange cultural taboos that we have around violence, and how those are the direct. You know the out verse of our fascination, fixation, and love of violence. I've come to understand that the word pacifism falls so far short of the philosophic, the philosophy that I tried to implement in my life. It's anything but passive, it's the opposite of passive it's active. But activism has its own meanings. I've come to understand that learning to own your power on any level to know your power is one of the greatest gifts that martial arts practice can do especially for people who feel as if their power has been sorted undermined or in some way stifled people who have been abused, often turn to martial arts, and it's a great healing vehicle for them to confront demons and to learn how to lean into discomfort, whether it's you know people who have, you know, to become inoculated to touch for people who have touch sensitivities. You know, for me, it was so vital to understand that that I'm a warrior. That I fight for a thing. I fight for a set of values, and that I kick my fight very seriously. And that my fight is a noble one and far from being a pacifist I've come to understand that power expresses itself on in a wide range of manifests and a vast many number of ways. And it's an ongoing process to become better at it, but I'm grateful for her to have the opportunity to learn how to been discovered how to not shirk my responsibilities, how to set up and assert myself in super powerful and super respectful ways that, you know, I would have never done before. I would have been passive aggressive or felt frustrated and stymied. I'm a grown man. I have a great gift of a great amount of power that I'm able to access and to be able to sit with that and hold it. And it certainly makes me, I was never very likely to get in a fight to begin with all that much less likely to get in a fight now, a fist fight but the idea of redirecting violent expressions aggressions to interact with and to receive people's energies. God you know those are gifts that maybe you could have got through some other type of therapeutic process or education but they nothing makes it so internalized as the martial arts. And I mean I could just continue to talk about, you know, power dynamics, and our culture's relationship to violence and compare that to other cultures and histories. But at this point, the one thing that really juices me specifically about martial arts more than any other discipline is that beautiful exploration and the gift that there is within it.
Jeremy Lesniak:
So, remember back in the intro when I said that today's episode kind of defied a neat box stuff. Intro to what I'm talking about. I had an absolute blast with this conversation and I'm incredibly thankful that sensei came on it was willing to talk to me. He told me to call him Daniel so I guess I should call him Daniel Thank you, Daniel. Thank you for your time. Thank you for your willingness to open up. I'm recording this outro. A little bit after the recording, you know not immediately after as I usually do and that's because the wheels are still turning. I'm still trying to figure out how to unpack this one enough in my mind that I can start to digest it. I don't pretend that everybody listens to the episodes in the same way I don't expect that you do the same thing when you listen to the show that I do when I listen to this or honestly any podcast, but I would guess that this one had a little differently, hopefully in a good way. And that's because the conversation we had wasn't a normal conversation for this show. Yeah, we talked about martial arts and yeah we talked about personal stuff. But the arc of the conversation was a bit different. I got the sense that you are prepared and had things that he really wanted to say, in fact, he said that during the intro there were some things that were important to him to say, and I think that that came through. So again, thank you. And thank you to all of you for listening. If you want more, if you want to see the photos and the links and all that. Go to whistlekickmartialartsradio.com, you're going to see stuff for this and every other episode we've ever done. And if that means something to you, if you want to make sure that this show keeps going. If you want to support us, I hope you do something, anything would be appreciated sharing an episode, telling friends, leaving reviews on whatever podcast platform you use or Facebook or Google or Patreon, you know, contributing there by making a purchase it was okay, copied. I'll be honest, I don't care. I don't care what you do, I just, I want to know that you value. What we do it. It means a lot more than I think you may realize if you see somebody out there wearing some of the whistlekick. Say hi. We're building something here and you're part of it. And you can help us spread what we're doing. It's all about the traditional martial arts, and if you want to email me jeremy@whistekick.com or social media at whistlekick. That's it. That's all I've got for you today. So, until next time, train hard. Smile, and have a great day.