Episode 980- Sifu Sharif Anael-Bey
In this episode, Jeremy chats with Sifu Sharif Anael-Bey about his experiences in the martial arts, his teachers, and community.
Sifu Sharif Anael-Bey - Episode 980
SUMMARY
This conversation explores the journey of Sifu Sharif Anael-Bey, from childhood through adulthood, highlighting the influence of family dynamics, early exposure to martial arts, and the impact of iconic figures like Bruce Lee. The discussion delves into the importance of the teacher-student relationship, the evolution of training, and the personal growth experienced through martial arts. Sifu Anael-Bey reflects on his experiences in Syracuse, the challenges of trust in the learning process, and the transition from student to teacher. In this conversation, he explores the profound themes of belonging, purpose, and obligation within the context of martial arts. He reflects on his relationship with his father, the importance of lineage, and how teaching methods have evolved over time. The discussion emphasizes the significance of love over fear in student relationships and the commitment to continuous improvement in martial arts practice.
TAKEAWAYS
Martial arts can shape personality and outlook on life.
Family dynamics play a significant role in shaping one's character.
Early exposure to martial arts can lead to lifelong passion.
Influential figures like Bruce Lee can inspire generations of martial artists.
The teacher-student relationship is foundational in martial arts training.
Trust in the instructor is crucial for student growth.
Imposter syndrome is a common experience among martial artists.
Understanding the cultural significance of terms like Sifu enhances the learning experience.
Teaching martial arts can be a rewarding way to give back to the community.
Personal growth often comes from overcoming challenges in training.
Belonging in martial arts can be a transformative experience.
Finding purpose often comes from personal experiences and relationships.
The role of a parent is to prepare their child for adulthood.
Understanding one's obligation to the lineage of martial arts is crucial.
Teaching methods should evolve with experience and understanding.
Student relationships can be complex and require compassion.
Love can be a powerful tool in resolving conflicts.
Continuous improvement is essential in martial arts and teaching.
Discipline is the foundation for solving problems in martial arts.
Self-defense is ultimately about overcoming one's lower self.
CHAPTERS
00:00 Introduction to Martial Arts Journey
02:50 The Impact of Family Dynamics on Personality
06:00 Early Exposure to Martial Arts
08:55 The Influence of Bruce Lee and Kung Fu Theater
11:57 Transitioning to Higher Levels of Training
14:55 The Role of Education in Martial Arts
18:10 Syracuse: A Martial Arts Hotspot
21:00 Understanding the Teacher-Student Relationship
23:51 Lessons in Trust and Growth
27:13 The Evolution of Teaching and Learning
30:06 Becoming a Teacher: A Personal Journey
33:05 Reflections on Growth and Identity
35:24 Finding Belonging in Martial Arts
36:39 Reflections on Fatherhood and Purpose
39:12 Understanding Obligation and Legacy
40:52 The Importance of Lineage in Martial Arts
44:45 Evolving Teaching Methods Over Time
47:11 Navigating Student Relationships
55:48 The Power of Love Over Fear
01:01:15 Commitment to Continuous Improvement
To connect with Sifu Sharif Anael-Bey:
https://www.facebook.com/sharif.a.bey
https://www.tiktok.com/@sifusharif
This episode is sponsored by Kataaro. Please check out their site at Kataaro Custom Martial Arts Products - Kataaro. And use the code WK10 to save 10% off your first order. And be sure to ask them about a wholesale account for school owners!
After listening to the episode, it would be exciting for us to know your thoughts about it.
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Show Transcript
Jeremy Lesniak (00:07.522)
Hey, what's up? Before we bring you the episode with Sharif, which is a fantastic conversation, Kataro, this episode is brought to you by Kataro, K-A-T-A-A-R-O.com. They make the world's best belts. They also do these incredible patches and they've got a variety of different technologies that they use for patches. And really here's what I want you to come away with. If you can think of it in terms of belts or patches, they can do it.
And so what they really want us to let you know is that if you have an idea, you should reach out to them because there's a very, very, very good chance that they'll be able to get it over the goal line for you. And with amazing customer service, wonderful quality, they are fantastic people over there. We're not working with them just because they give us money because really it's not about the money. There isn't, it's not that much money. It's because we're trying to grow our reach and associate ourselves with great companies. And Kotaro is a great
company and I hope that you will give them a try. Use the code WK10 to save 10 % on your first order. Yes, they do wholesale accounts and yes, they should be something that you're paying attention to a company that you're paying attention to because they do great work for martial artists like sponsoring the show. Now my conversation with Sharif. Yeah, how are you? I'm good, man. I'm good. I'm good. I'm good. Are you so
You know, here you are, you're pretty smiley. I've seen you, I've seen you at some events. You've always been pretty smiley there. Are you always a smiley guy?
Yeah, yeah. I mean, yeah, I guess. I don't mean 100 % right we all have bad days. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm fairly cheerful. I try to be, I try to be. Yeah, I try to be very cheerful when it comes to certain things, especially the martial arts, I'm just, you know, it's.
Jeremy Lesniak (02:12.246)
I mean, it's exciting for me. yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Have you always been a cheerful guy? Is that we go back to? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, even as a young child, I was always very cheerful and upbeat. I learned pessimism over time.
My younger brother is just the opposite. He was the pessimist. He's learning to be more cheerful. Older younger? he older or younger? Younger. He's younger. Yeah. Yeah.
So we're kind of reversing rules now. Yeah. I don't know how birth order affects optimism versus pessimism, but I wonder, are kids inherently optimistic or pessimistic? And then they learn the other. It's interesting, because he and I, like I said, we're a year and a half apart, and like a lot alike, but a lot not. And we're like polar opposites in many ways.
You know, he was the guy, I was the guy that, you know, we were very young. I was the guy that would not fight because I was scared of hurting people. So I wouldn't touch people. He was the guy that fought everybody. If you looked at him sideways, you know, that that's kind of how it was for him, know, for me, I'm the guy you tell me you're an airplane pilot. I'm looking for the airplane. I believe you. Him, he's just like, everybody's suspect until proven otherwise.
Guilty until proven innocent. Yeah, exactly. Wow. Did he or does he train? Yes. OK. Yes. Yeah, he trains. Yeah, he does a similar. He does a sister system to my style. does chole for kung fu. OK. Yeah. Did you guys both get into that as kids? Yeah. We were both introduced to it very young in the martial arts, very young.
Jeremy Lesniak (04:18.094)
He didn't stick with it, I did. And then he came back to it later as an adult. OK. Yeah. I wonder how much of that relates to the other stuff that you said. How old were you when you started? Five. OK. So yeah. I don't know how old you are. I don't think we're that far off. 45. I turn 58 next month. snap. All right.
I mean, you've got you've got the white but right like you're at your energy is not 58 year old energy. So you started in the 70s at five years old. Yes, I did. Yeah, that's not 71. Yeah, that's not a thing that happened very often back then. No, no, no. How how did you get so fortunate at five years old in the early 70s to start learning martial arts and
How did you end up with parents that thought that was a good idea? There's so many unlikely occurrences that led to that, and we have to start there. Well, I was born out west. was born in Long Beach, California. Shortly after, my parents separated. My father moved back to New York. And my mother sent us to live with my dad at age four.
My dad took me to a community center and we watched a martial arts demonstration and that was it. was it. started tearing up furniture, imitating what we saw. And for my fifth birthday, he bought me lessons and that did it.
Were you in a kid's class? It was a small group, so it was children and some adults, yes. OK, so it was just everybody. Yeah, yeah. All right, so something that I don't think people these days have any concept of is how brave that crop of instructors that would just take anybody, any age, 75 or 5, and they just brought them in and worked with them together.
Jeremy Lesniak (06:30.006)
because now we have so many schools, know, four and five year olds, right? We gotta cut it off there because the moment you get to six, it becomes difficult to teach. Working with everybody, there's a really interesting energy, right? It forces the adults to be more playful, forces the kids to step up. That's a fact, that's a fact. And the instructors, especially at that time, nobody was making thousands and thousands of dollars teaching martial arts.
No, no, you were doing it from the heart. You know? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, you were really doing it. I mean, you know, you were you were really working to contribute to the betterment of society. Right. Well, it was it you're closing the loop, right? Because if you're teaching in the early 70s, you probably started training with that first crop of, you know,
post-Korean war vets that came back. Correct. And you you recognized how powerful, how important this stuff was and you wanted to share it. That was it. Yeah. It wasn't money. No. Not that there's anything wrong with making money. that wasn't the culture back then. All right. So you're five years old, you're doing this, you're digging it.
And at some point not long after your brother stops, you kept going. Why did you keep going? Let me tell you, I really, that's difficult to answer. I'll tell you why, because, you know, it's like the whole thing, the whole theory behind a bloodhound, why the bloodhound never loses its set and loses the set, because it never occurs to him that he can. And so it was kind of like, I saw this and it was like, the decision was made for me.
This is what I do now. Yeah, it was kind of like a line that Brad Pitt says in Troy when she's at when when when one actress is asked him, you know, how did you decide to become who you know, he says what it's just this great warrior, he says, decide, because I was born and that's what I am. Yeah, it's kind of like that's kind of like even the system that I do now, because I began in Taiwan.
Jeremy Lesniak (08:55.726)
Right? it was a Taekwondo instructor. That's right. At age five. But what I do now, tell you, fast forward to like age 10 or 11. you know, Bruce Lee era, of course, you know. And so I'm reading magazines, Black Belt Magazine or horror publications. And I'm looking at all these articles about Bruce Lee and I'm eating up anything about Bruce Lee. And it's like.
Wow, Bruce Lee began with the Wing Chun Bong Fu style. I got to study Wing Chun. I have studied Wing Chun. And sure enough, Yim Lee, the late James Yim Lee, who was a student and personal friend of Bruce Lee, wrote a book that was the form that was written by Bruce Lee called Wing Chun, O'Hara Publications, green cover book. I said, I have to get it. You got it on the shelf behind you there? No. You got a copy back there? I need that. I need a copy of it. But I saved pennies. I literally put cash in an envelope.
And I did. And I wrote this long letter as to my aspirations, like they really cared, right? Anyway, I, after a number of weeks, I get a package in the mail. I'm giddy. I come home from school, I got a package in the mail. And the first thing that there's a letter and I opened the letter and it says, you know, dear Mr. Bay, we're, you know, apologies. The book you ordered is back ordered. We're going to send it to you probably, but
take this gift as a token of our appreciation for your order. And it was Buc Sam Kong's book on Hong Kong. I'm like, I don't want this. Once again, it found me. Isn't that crazy? Wow. Yeah. Not just to mention, people don't understand how special it was to get a package back in the day. Right now, Amazon shows up. You got eight packages a day.
Yeah, and it's just like, yeah, leave the couch, you know? Yeah. But back then, I remember, I remember if I could convince my mother to order something, right, because I had to talk on the phone, then give her the phone. And then she would give him the credit card or you fill out the form with the check, right? Like, this is a big deal. And then you would come home every day from school. And did it it come? Did it come? Was it in the mail? Right. And it would be weeks, none of this two to three day prime delivery stuff. It was all
Jeremy Lesniak (11:23.008)
So, and the reason I think that's relevant to the folks out there who might be a little bit younger is.
It was never trivial. If you ordered something, it was a big deal. You had to put in work to do it. And then when it showed up, it meant that much more. So you're talking about this Hungar book. So even though it wasn't what you wanted, what did you do with that book? Well, I read it, of course, and I was kind of like, and eventually my Wing Chun book came. But right around that time, shout out to my good friend, George Tan.
George Tan is a filmmaker and Wing Chun practitioner who now lives in Thailand, but George Tan was the individual, this is some trivia for the listeners. George Tan was the single individual responsible for getting the licensing for the old Shaw Brothers movies so that Kung Fu Theater on Saturday afternoons on Channel 5 in New York City could exist. Okay, okay, so now, so we've got this man, what's his name again? George Tan. George Tan, all right, so George Tan.
might be responsible for more martial artists starting than anybody other than Bruce Lee. The whole Kung Fu theater, right? The whole Kung Fu theater came from him. He's the one that the licensing from Hong Kong. If you go back, you were to fast forward, listen to, watch every episode we've done, you would hear dozens of people say,
Jeremy Lesniak (12:53.58)
I would get up, I would watch Kung Fu theater with my siblings, my friends, my father, and that created the interest that led to the training, right? For so many people. That was the spark. Listen, let me tell you, when, around that time was when Kung Fu theater started, you know, and I'm going, I'm looking at Lau Kar-Lung's masterpiece, Master Killer.
Gordon Liu and my eyes fall out of my head, my joints of floor because that's the stuff that was in the Hong Kong book. I'm just like. So now you see it on screen. You see it being implemented and I'm sure your interest level changed dramatically. You probably went back and started studying that book. I devoured it. Yeah. And then I found people that trained in it and that's what put me on that path. So I was training.
Unofficially, I was training Honga as early as 1980.
And then I found my SIPA in 1989. Okay. So 83. that, you had 12 years of taekwondo under your belt at that point? Yes. Did you keep going or did you hard left? Nah, it, yeah, it was, yeah. Plus we had moved a couple of times. I wasn't with my instructor. I found another taekwondo instructor that I kind of, you know, trained with, you know, ex officio. But when that happened, it was like,
doing this. I'm doing this. You see? so, and so it was like, once again, it was that voice that just said, that's it. And this is what you're doing. You know, and I just obeyed, you know, that that's literally how that happened, man. Yeah. All right. So, so you're training in hungar. So you're, you're coming to the end of high school at that point. Yes. Yes. Yes. What's next? College.
Jeremy Lesniak (14:55.618)
You know, well, there was a number of years of me just kind of being like, know, quite chain came, you know, the wandering hermit trying to figure out what the hell I was going to do with my life, you know, and I ended up in Syracuse, New York, going to college. But but just before that, you know, before that is when I found my seafood. Where were you in California? Where did you start? Well, I was born in Long Beach, California, but I grew up and we came to my father in New York.
okay. Okay. Okay. Yes. Yes. All right. Because, you a boy from the beach going to Syracuse, that's a, that's a hard move. yeah. So I, I'm an East Coast guy. Okay. All right. All right. That makes more sense because I can't imagine very many people from the, from the beaches of California making it even through one winner in Syracuse. One. Exactly. So
Yeah, so from New York City, from the Bronx, New York, New York, and you know. All right, there it is. There it is. OK, I just heard it. I just heard it the way you said, Bronx. All right, keep going. Yeah, to Syracuse. then, you know, so I get with my seafood. I'm accepted by him just before I started college. And that put me on the road, You know, yeah. I've been with him since then. Wow.
Yes. Syracuse is this hotbed for martial arts. We've had a number of people from that area come on the show. And when we think about areas that are prolific with martial arts, that is not one that most people are going to, and I've got theories, but before I voice them,
Why do you think that became such a hotspot for training? Well, there's a number of old school luminaries that come out of Syracuse, New York. There are people that, when I say, you know, I'm a lifelong martial artist and my interest is so deep, I knew about these people long before I even knew what Syracuse was. I knew about Greg Tierney, you know?
Jeremy Lesniak (17:11.574)
I knew about Hanshi Tierney long in the Purple Dragons, long before I even knew what Syracuse, New York was or anything that even existed. I knew about Frankie Mitchell. I knew about Yousef Mehta. I knew about these names long before I even came here. And so that's what, they laid a very, very strong foundation for martial arts in central New York.
even the, you know, his teachers, know, great Taney's teachers, you know, master van Lenten and Peter Musacchio. These guys were like giants in the sixties, you know, and like you said, right off of the tail end of Korea and then Vietnam, you know, these guys were like giants, you know, and they laid the groundwork. There was one particular school in San Rios called central New York karate with, you know, master van Lenten and also Peter Musacchio, those two guys.
they laid the foundation pretty much. Yeah. So was, was part of your reason for going to school in Syracuse because of the folks that were there? No, no, no. I was a knucklehead. was a knucklehead. I won't, I won't go into details. Let's just say that, you know, Syracuse provided a, provided a well needed break from the foolery, you know, and, you know, and it was a way for me to
in essence, kind of start over and reinvent myself. I got back into college, Syracuse University. One of my good friends, why I chose it, because one of my close friends from New York was in school here. And we did the same thing. We were graffiti artists. So got into the illustration program, the VPA. That's what we did. All right. So you're there. You're in school.
you're probably training and then when you can go to class. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I've heard this story before. You got it. And and and you know, you had enough training under your belt at that point to know what you liked and didn't like the way you wanted to train, didn't want to train. Yes. Yes. Was this like, OK, this is the next logical step or were you going
Jeremy Lesniak (19:36.468)
know, eyes wide open going, holy crap. Where am I? How did I luck out for this? Right? Like, I still didn't understand. I still at the time did not appreciate the value of not just so much as what I was doing, but it's never the pot. It's always the chef. You know, I didn't, I didn't really perceive the value of my seafood and the relationship.
I didn't, at that time, it was like, you know, I like Kung Fu, you know, and I think I'm okay at it, you know, and that was kind of it. And I always had, I suffered from imposter syndrome. You know, I did, I suffered from imposter syndrome where in groups and organizations, I always felt kind of semi ostracized.
You know what I mean? And it was the same thing in our Kung Fu Association, the exact same thing. were rivalries and other things like that. It's just part of the human experience you have to learn to work through. And it wasn't until I finally decided, I remember, and I'll share this with the audience, it's a very significant point in my martial arts career. At a particular point, I was, because just like,
In the karate systems and other stuff, there's higher level rankings above expert or black gult or instructor. And I remember when I finally was permitted to test for some, the first time. And it's literally like you're on the hot seat. It's not like regular tests. It's a closed door. My senior training brothers, the governing board and my C4 are right there in the room and you're on the hot seat.
And he said something that literally I broke down into tears. First question, he goes, listen, you've been with me for a long time. You've never really been serious. You've always just kind of been all over the place. He goes, but now you're solid. Why are you so solid now?
Jeremy Lesniak (21:46.957)
And I said, and man, it took me back to a point where I was just like sick and tired of being sick and tired. But I had done so much damage to myself socially. I'm like, well, where the hell do I start? And I told him right there, I said, the only people that took me serious was you and this association. How old were you at that
Jeremy Lesniak (22:19.895)
Wow, late 20s. Okay, yeah.
starting to figure out what it all means, right? For a lot of us that late 20s, there's a transitional point as we start to understand. And it sounds like you finally had enough context from time training to know what you had. I just started to see, but the only reason I was able to see the value in what I had was that I was just starting to see that I had some real value.
You know what I mean? Other than just doing stupid stuff for dumb people. And this is what you're talking about when you say, know, the quality of the relationship with your instructor. The term Sifu, for instance, like in the West, you know, because we're socialized to think a particular way, we think Sifu is like just a Chinese word for instructor when it's not. You know, the Chinese martial arts structure.
is literally the Confucian social principle for an adopted family. So sifu literally means father, teacher. It means adopted father. And so it's way bigger than just get your lesson and a pat on the backside and give me my money. The relationship is really, it's deep. so, yeah, I was the errant.
knucklehead kid, you know, said, give me the keys to the car, dad. All right, see you later. I'm not putting gas in it. You know, that's kind of what I was up until a particular point where I got to value dad. But when we look at the relationship in that way, that that's how every parent child relationship is right. You can't expect the child to have the context of value what the parent is giving them. And let's face it.
Jeremy Lesniak (24:18.951)
Most of us don't fully understand how much our parents do for us until they're gone. Dude, that's real, And one of the things I'm spending a lot of time thinking about right now, because it impacts as an industry our marketing and our teaching, is that we expect people who don't have context for what we're doing to just trust us. Yes. Just submit. Just believe.
And the better we can convey context in language they understand, the more we can get them to trust and try and buy it. What you just described and what we're talking about now is according to my Sifu, and I'm growing into this understanding, that to us is the true meaning of tradition. It's the relationship. It's the relationship. You see?
Like, let's go back to pre-industrialized West. I want to feed my family. want to, you know, I got to learn a skill. I got to learn to trade. Well, got to find now, I got to find somebody who has that skill, I have to demonstrate to them that I'm worthy enough for them to spend their time. That's an important word. It's a powerful word, worthy.
Yeah, I'm worthy enough for them to spend their time because bottom line, I need that skill. And if he doesn't want to give it to me, I don't get it. And this is, I mean, whether we're talking about old Kung Fu movies or, you know, the notion of the apprentice sort of program, it is such a cliche that the apprentice would have to prove their worth for the instructor father to
invest the time and the energy into their upbringing because it wasn't an instant return. Exactly. Exactly. It was not an instant return. And of course, the prerequisite is that for me to seek out that particular individual, they already have to have a demonstrable skill and ability. So there's the balance. It's like, yeah, the students got to be diligent. It's got to be hardworking, got to be loyal.
Jeremy Lesniak (26:44.181)
faithful, sure, but that's gotta be balanced by the teacher's knowledge, skill, and ability to impart it. You know, that is tradition. Yes. You know, that's tradition. so, and that's, it's, all of those things have to mesh for this whole thing to work. Yeah. Yeah. Which makes it precious, but it does, man, it does not do well with mass production. No.
It doesn't. It doesn't. And so when we start looking at this, and the last thing I'm ever going to do, and anybody who knows me knows, I believe wholeheartedly martial arts schools can and should, if they want to, make money. Because otherwise, you can't reach as many people, right? This is the left. And you agree with me, so we're not going there. Don't worry, there people in the audience, no, we're not telling you you shouldn't charge money and make a good living.
What is interesting and what does battle against this traditional aspect is Western cultures demand an expectation for rapid progress. And when you lack the context to see the progress because, and this is where I think a lot of schools go wrong, where the entirety of their recognition system is belts and stripes.
If we can't help people see that when they invest, you know, a couple of weeks, a few hours here and there, that they are getting better, because we know they're getting better. When we're in the front of the room, we can see almost every class, almost every person gets a little bit better at something. We can see that because we have the context. We know what it looks like. Correct. But they just have to trust us. And that's, that's hard. It's hard. It's hard. It's very hard. And that's also part of the tradition.
You know, I'll tell you another story that speaks to this. I hadn't been to the school in a while, you know, because in college I'm poor, you know, whatever. And one day I pop up at the school in Chinatown and it's bustling. There's people all over the place, like, what the hell's going on? And one of my training brothers says, hey, there's a film crew here from Taiwan, from a Taiwan TV station, and they're filming us. So, you know, see what they're saying, get in your uniform. yeah, get in my uniform.
Jeremy Lesniak (29:10.027)
Sifu, how you doing? What do you mean to... Okay, Sharif, you're gonna do five animal. And then one of my older training brothers was putting down the list of people and what they were gonna do for the camera. And he says, how? Put them down for five animal. Immediately I get nervous. Immediately I go into the self-effacing thing. And I'm just like, I ain't been practiced in a while. I don't want the school to look bad. So when Sifu walked away, I went and told my training brother, I said, listen, have somebody else.
I don't wanna embarrass the school. So he did. My Sifu didn't talk to me for almost a year. And I did not understand what I did so bad. So finally I asked one of my older training brothers. I said, yo, what did I do? What did I do? He goes, okay. goes, Sharif, let me explain it. He goes, who's your Sifu? I said, Sifu is. He goes, Why are you learning from?
because he has what I want. you know, he goes, right. So who knows more Kung Fu, you or Sifu? He goes, I know Sifu does. goes, so who knows better how far along you are on the road?
Jeremy Lesniak (30:22.647)
Then it hit me. Then it hit me. Wow. I basically told Sifu in so many words, he didn't know what he was looking at. He doesn't know what he's talking
And even in that situation, right? Because we could imagine in a similar situation someone saying, you don't trust me, you need to go away. But he, I'm assuming it sounds like permitted you to keep coming. yeah. But he didn't talk to you. No. And how powerful was that lesson? When I finally understood my training brother helped me, I go to Sifu and I said, Sifu, I'm so sorry.
He act like nothing ever happened. goes, you're going to go train? You're going to go practice? OK. But we know how hard that was for him. Yes. That probably killed him every single day. But what was most important to him was that you learned that lesson. So he wasn't willing to compromise. He wasn't going to pull you aside and say, you know, I'm your Sifu. You need to trust that I know what's going on. No, you need to learn that lesson for yourself. You've got to learn the lesson. That's right.
and then for him to let it go so easily. this is a special person. Yeah, yeah. Let me tell you, I say this to my students all the time. When it comes to everybody has intelligence in certain areas. He's the when it comes to the proper handling of people, he's one of the smartest people.
Jeremy Lesniak (31:54.189)
We call him yoga. It's to the point where he's like, he's like, we're like, yo, he can read minds. You know, it's really at that level. It's like, yo, this guy, he's so good at handling people. It's just like, wow, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right. So.
You're there, you're developing, you're learning. You're done with school. Yes. Sounds like you stick around. Yeah, yeah. So I go back to New York for a couple of years. And then I moved back to Syracuse. I came back up here. Why? Love interest. And so I've been here ever since. I said, well, you know, what am going to do?
Literally, I started teaching because I needed bodies to beat on and in practice with that. That's that was it was totally selfish. What year was that?
Jeremy Lesniak (33:05.069)
2001. Okay. Yeah, 2001. Yeah, you you were you were there you were with him for 20 years before you started teaching. Absolutely. That's that's a long time. That's longer than most people. Well, what means that's the right time. I was slow. You know, because I was this this was what my, you know, sporadic just run doing all kinds of stuff. You know what mean?
So I'll put it like this, in that period of time, like when I was in college, there were people that learned from me initially and then I introduced them to the association and rank wise, they surpassed me. Yeah. Yeah. I was their older brother, training brother. And in some instances, I was their first seafood. You know, so.
I was in that respect a late bloomer in the association, but I've been around for a long time. People just didn't know. They didn't see me. And so finally, decide, yes, I'm going to teach. And it was around this time that Sifu said, you know what? OK, I think he's getting serious. It was around this time period, because now I'm producing.
I'm showing up to the test with students. And I remember the first time I did, I brought like about 10 students to test. And Sifu is hard. He's hard when it comes to compliments. The very first compliment to memory that I could ever remember that he gave me, he looked at something I did and he says, I can't find anything wrong with it. And he walked away. So that was a compliment. That's a big compliment.
And so that day he sat next to me and he said, good job. Your students have kept the standard. Yeah. That's, that's big. Yeah. So that was when he said, you know what? Okay. This guy's serious. This guy's solid. Did that change your relationship at that point? It did. How so? I felt like I did. I felt less of the imposter.
Jeremy Lesniak (35:22.989)
You know, I felt like, okay, this really feels like home. I wasn't going anywhere anyway, but it's like, this really feels like home now. It feels like, you know, this is where I belong. This is it. This is really it. You know what mean? So 30 years after you started training, you finally felt like you had a bit of belonging. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
And then it hit me, like, just for me. Like, yeah, this is it for you. This is it. Like, this is it right here. Right now, this is it. And I remember...
And my father passed, my father passed in 06 and we had a, you know, our relationship was, you know, not, it was not so easy, right? And I remember when he had passed and I was talking to an elder friend of mine, an elder that I look up to, and I said, I was angry. I was angry, you know, because there's lots of questions that I wish I could have got answers to.
And I was kind of expressing this to this elder. And he said, listen, you need to calm down. He goes, well, so, you know, and so he goes, so as a profession, what do you do? What do you do? I said, I teach martial arts. goes, was that all you do? said, no, do other things in the community. I do a lot of things in the community. And he goes, are any of those things related to martial arts? I'm like, actually all of them are in some shape, form, or fashion. He goes, wow.
He goes, so you've kind of found yourself. You found your purpose in life. Could you say that? go, yeah. In my head, I'm thinking he's trying to calm me down and divert my anger by changing the topic. So that's what we were talking about that for a second. He goes, so how did you come to do martial arts? You already see where this is going. So I said.
Jeremy Lesniak (37:35.501)
Well, my dad, when I first came to live with him at age four, he took me to see a demonstration and then at age five bought me less. And he goes, wow, your dad did that? go, yeah. goes, did it ever occur to you that from a karmic perspective, as it relates to you, that was his sole purpose in life? Your father put you on your life path with that one thing. And he says, I can't think of anything negative to say about your dad. Shut me the hell up.
As you were talking, you know, my relationship with my father was, you know, different, but also a bit complex. And when he passed, passed just a few years ago and left, left me with some questions. Yes. And I have reached in slightly different path, a similar conclusion with two things. And I'll, I'll share them because there may be some folks out there who this will be helpful to.
The role of a parent is not to raise a child, it's to raise an adult. And so as much as there were plenty of things about my childhood, I would have loved to have changed. I'm pretty proud of who I am now as an adult. My childhood was different, my adulthood would be different. And I don't get to blame him.
for the bad things without also crediting him for the good things. You don't get to pick and choose. And so when we take a look at that, like.
What if your father's primary purpose on earth was to make sure you ended up doing the thing you were doing, teaching martial arts, because that was his way of leaving the world a better place? Listen, even if he consciously was unaware of the fact, it doesn't change the fact. The reality is the same whether he knew it or not, whether it was intentional or not. He played his role.
Jeremy Lesniak (39:39.245)
There are there are people here who are meant to move the world forward there are people here who are meant to simply Pass on their genes their knowledge etc. So somebody else can do that
Correct. That's a fact. You know, that's a fact. That's, woo, you know, all of these things that we're talking about, man, just make what this represents for me so much more valuable and so rich. You know what I mean? And at the same time, it reminds me of my obligation to make sure that I don't let
them down. That's a that's important word. And I don't think you chose it trivially obligation. Right. What is what does that obligation mean to you? What is the obligation? Where does it come from? How do you honor it? We have so a lot of what we do, all of what we do comes from an eastern state of mind. And one of the very difficult things for us as Westerners is to get the full benefit of what we're learning.
because of a lack of understanding of the mindset it came from. That said, have to talk about things like lineage. You learn from this guy, he learned from this guy, and all the way back and all the way back. Why is that important? In the true sense, it's important because it reminds us of our obligations. Because we're one point on that line that goes back and then the line also goes forward.
You know what I mean? 50 years from now, I'll be on that wall. My name will be on the wall. And people will be reciting the lineage and boom, there's me. Well, what did you contribute? Because those are the contributors to what people will be doing. And it's like a Model T Ford. None of us want a Model T Ford, but we damn sure appreciate the fact that one existed.
Jeremy Lesniak (41:50.285)
or else I would not have this Lamborghini quadruport. You know what I'm saying? And somebody after him, after Henry Ford improved and then improved and then improved and then there. And so that's our obligation.
Here we go. My Sifu puts it like this. says, my Sifu, by the way, is Grandmaster Frank Yi Qiwei. That's who he is. Frank Yi, for short, right? He puts it like this. He says, we should know the art from three different perspectives. One is the perspective of the founder and those in the lineage. So that is the curriculum. Then the perspective of your instructor, your Sifu.
his experience, personal experience. And then when you've grown up and can think about the art responsibly, you have to give back with your experience.
You see? And those, so my obligation is I have to give back. Yeah. Yeah. You know what else I love about that? It acknowledges that it's going to change. And instead of viewing that change as deficient. Correct. It is something to be embraced, but while still remembering. Yes. Right. And I love that. I love that.
Because we've done the logic math on the show before. If you only ever try to keep it perfectly the same as what was taught to you, it will get worse over time, because you're never going to be as good of the person, good version of the person who taught you. Right? My season says, if we, at a particular stage in your training, it's good to see his shadow on the floor when you're on the floor.
Jeremy Lesniak (43:39.521)
He goes, later on, if you move like me, I did a half ass job.
Jeremy Lesniak (43:46.381)
Because his job is to make you the best you. Yes. And your job is to make you the best. Like what you just said, parent's job is not to raise children, but to raise adults. Yeah, And it's, you know, this is something I wish more schools understood and embraced, right? Because there are so many schools out there, and I'm not going to claim it's the majority, but there are so many schools out there. It's not a small percentage that
They deem success of a student as looking very much like the instructor, the head instructor, you know, creating clones. And I just, I think that, I think that dooms people. It does do people. Because then they can never, right? You can, you can never do anything different. You can never do anything better. You can't have progress without change. You can't have growth without change. You can't be better unless it's a little different.
There you go. And so, and what you just expressed, that's the tradition. That's tradition. We heard Bruce Lee say it, the truth of combat lies outside all fixed forms. And we said, that's eclectic. That's not, no, that's tradition. Where do you think Bruce got it from? But when we remember, going back towards the beginning, that the majority of martial arts traditions in the West came from militaristic tradition. And let's face it, people who had trained for the most part,
A year or two.
Jeremy Lesniak (45:19.557)
And they were raised in hierarchy. They were comfortable in military hierarchy. And correct. You don't want a military where everybody's doing their own thing. That doesn't work out well. That's how people get shot in the back. Period. That's exactly how it happens now. I want to add something to that, too. My Sifu came to the West in 68. He was in Toronto and in Montreal, Canada. And he taught there and he went to college there. Then he moved to New York City.
early, early, early, early 70s and officially started the association in 1974. He had a lot of time to observe Western culture, participate in Western culture while still maintaining and retaining Eastern culture. So he learned over time to blend what he felt was the best of both together.
In the old days, like the old Confucius, like if we were to go to China right now and see how he deals with his Chinese students, we'd be shocked because it's a different social structure. And so in the old days, a lot of the military guys were over there. That's what they experienced. So they took that as tradition. And so in the West, nobody's going to go for that stuff. But some people did. But we took it as basically you're being abusive.
but that's the tradition, so I'll just accept it. Without any understanding. Context. Context. Without context, man. That's right. Yeah. So how has all this affected the way you work with your students? And I guess to be even more specific. Yes. If we were to go back to 2001 versus now, what's different about the way you work with your students?
There was a lot that I didn't understand in 2001 about how my Sifu did things. I was way more, well at the time I thought, okay, yeah, I'm more generous than my Sifu. I'm not gonna hold people back. Cause I still had remnants of the whole imposter syndrome. So I say, don't want my students to ever experience that.
Jeremy Lesniak (47:38.369)
I'm just gonna give all this stuff I'm gonna share and share and share. And I learned from experience, you know, that, you know, how to balance that properly. And the more I learned, the more I got to appreciate the way I see.
I said, okay, I'm starting to actually even say some of the same things he said to me 15 years ago, 20 years ago. I'm seeing, I'm hearing those same words come out. I'm like, wait a minute. Wait a minute. But now I get it. get People with kids, especially, are nodding along. like, man, I heard myself say that thing to my kids that my dad used to say to me or my mom used to say to me. Exactly. It's like, man, the curse.
children just like you. my God. Did I? I heard that from my mother, but I'm pretty sure I also heard my instructors say, I hope you have students like you one day. Pretty sure I heard that too. yeah. And so that's, that's what's changed is if anything is I've become a lot more like him, but not because I was trying to, you know, not because I was trying to it's because
Just experience. Experience. Like there was an incidence where I had a, I was at odds with one of my senior students and it was bad. And I remember complaining to Sifu about it. And I'm like, Sifu, I'm tired of this guy. He can go to hell with him. And so Sifu said, listen, you should handle it this way. And he was very, like,
almost passive and I was like, no, he's wrong. And then he said he's real calm. goes, Sharif, you remember your old classmate, former classmate that we had issues with years, right? This week, we've had a lot of internal struggles. so, and I go, yeah, yeah, of course. He goes, think about how I handled that. He goes, now think about all the things that took place. He goes,
Jeremy Lesniak (49:52.119)
Do you want to have those things take place in your school? He goes, now, then he says this, you think about it, it's your school. I'm just giving you a suggestion, but I'd like you to think about it. And I remember talking to my younger brother afterwards and I'm like, I didn't want to hear that. You're supposed to be on my side, And my brother said something really deep. goes,
Has your seatful ever steered you wrong? And I'm like, damn it, man. No, he hasn't. And so I put in my head, I was like, he's wrong on this one. He's wrong. But I did what he suggested solely because he's never steered me wrong before. And did it work out? Spectacular.
When you started having problems with that student, how long had they been training with you? He'd been with me about 10 years. Okay, adolescence. Yeah.
Right? You know, we see it so often. There are a few things that happen because if that relationship is maintained well, right? If you are truly a parent to that person, at some point they're going to start testing. They're going to start pushing. Where are the boundaries? Human beings, in my opinion, define their place in the world by the boundaries that they have. And how do you know where those boundaries are unless you push on them and someone shows you where they are, just as a good parent does.
You just reminded me, wow, you just kind of taught me something. You reminded me of- That's free, you're welcome. I had years ago with the wife, right? And she was, cause she's got four children, three older daughters. And this is before we got married. all, well, three older daughters and one son. And two of the three daughters tried her. Like always tried her. so-
Jeremy Lesniak (51:57.933)
And it's just they do it almost like they had oppositional defiance disorder. And she's just like, what is it about him? What is it? What is it? And I had to tell her, I said, look, from my perspective, outside perspective watching, I'm going tell what it is. You're such a super mom. You are the super mom. Like with the cake, you are. So you set the bar high. You're their example, their primary example. So right.
So you've now become the competition. You've become the person to be. And I'm just like, and she was just like, ugh, that makes so much sense, but ugh, why? But you don't want it to be true. You just want it to be because they're jerks, because then there's nothing you can do. Yeah, right. I'm like, you're the example. So you're the person to be. So when you think about that student that was troublesome,
And your Sifu gives you this advice and you follow it, it works out well. Does that also change the way you're doing things earlier with people so you don't get to that point? Absolutely. Because first all, the fact that it works so well, it worked like a magic trick. And I'm just like, come on, no way. No way. Can you be a little more, you know.
Can you be more descriptive without giving away their identity? Sure, sure, sure, sure. The student was just being very, was not just defiant, but he was expressing like, near aggressive animosity. Like I had done something to him and we had done nothing at all. And my whole mindset was, you know, you got a problem with me and I've done nothing but.
I've done nothing but help you. You want to fight? Like that's kind of where I was at. listen, we can fight. It's not a problem. You know, we can fight. Because that's what it seems like you're taking this. And I'm telling Sifu, you know, he's not holding up to his obligations as an assistant instructor or other things. And Sifu, thing was, like, you know, his thing was be nicer.
Jeremy Lesniak (54:19.117)
was just gonna say he needs more love, more compassion. Be nicer. And I'm like, hell no, no, I'm not doing that. You know, I've done nothing wrong. You know? But when I did that, I did that. And when I say things, did 180 in five seconds flat, I said, come on, man. You guys punking me, like really? Really, that's all it took? And I went back and told Sifu.
And he was like, he says, all I can do is share with you my experience. You know, and that student, he's not active today. He moved, he lives in Southern Georgia, but the relationship is still strong, still strong. If I call him, he's like, see what you need. I'm on my way. Because you, because he pushed.
He tried to get you to break that boundary because that would have justified however he was feeling about the world in that moment. And you said, screw that. I'm gonna, I'm gonna be me. I see your dickishness and I raise you love. Just like that. Just like that. Just like that. okay, fine. I'll fall in line because that's right. Like one of my worldviews is there are only two real.
motivating forces in the universe. It's love and it's Yes. And so his actions were clearly out of fear. So do you meet it head on and meet your own fear? Right. Because because I'm sure at that point you're feeling like, hey, I've put all this in and it's not enough. Right. And you're acting out. And so you can meet it, you know, clash with fear or okay.
I gotta find a way to meet this with more love and dissolve that fear. Easier said than done, for sure. And I follow my Sifu's suggestion and advice, in part because, yeah, Sifu's never steered me wrong. Okay, the other part was, I'm gonna show Sifu he was wrong. And I'm like, damn it, man, it didn't work. He was right.
Jeremy Lesniak (56:44.321)
But then I had to go back and look at the whole situation and like, and to your point, my anger was coming out of an illusory fear of loss. Yeah. You know what I mean? And it exposed the fact that at that moment, my love for my student wasn't genuine. Because if it's genuine, you don't expect it in return. It was Kandace Shaw.
Right. so when I showed it in spite of it won. It won. Yeah, it's you know, there's no situation I can come up with where throwing more love or compassion on top of it makes it worse. You know, doesn't mean it solves it. Doesn't mean it gets rid of it, right? But and and you know, there I'm sure there are people out there and some of them because we we get I've got some friends that are strong contrarians and they're listening. All right, Jeremy, let me
I'm not saying that always fixes everything. But if your only choices are love and fear, and I believe they are, fear is always gonna make it worse. Love might make it better. So it becomes a simple decision. Simple is not easy, right? mean, every day, every day I'm met by some situation that fear is leading me and I fail.
at switching that framework into operating in love. It's constant. The world is scary place. The world's a scary place, Yes. And it's so easy to lock the doors and bolt the windows and hide in your box. It's easy. It's easy.
So when we look at obligation, right, you said, you know, 50 years from now, right, which, you know, thinly veiled acknowledgement of mortality. Absolutely. You chose that number. I hope you make it to 108. I hope I do too. The odd, statistics are against it, but I mean, you know, I would, if you had told me you were, you know, 42, I would have believed you. maybe you can beat the odds, right?
Jeremy Lesniak (59:01.765)
He has little wisps of gray hair and he's This is me.
Well, see, know, mine just falls out, right? I don't have any white hair because I don't have any hair. If you look close, I keep my beard trimmed. But if you look close, you know, if you see me in person, you know, there's a spot right there. So, but when you think about obligation over this next phase, what does that look like? You put a bunch of pieces on the table and I just want to know how you're interpreting.
To oversimplify, I want to...
I myself, you know, through my students, you know. Yeah. Whether they teach professionally or not, whatever. But if I can bring them to a particular level of development, you know, then I'm happy. If they decide to teach, I'm happier.
I'm not just doing this teaching because, I can make a buck. can feed my family and whatever. This is my Sifu's life's work. He swore an oath to his Sifu on his Sifu's deathbed that he would carry the lineage. So we're helping him. know? Yeah. So that's what it would be oversimplified. It would be, you know,
Jeremy Lesniak (01:00:45.825)
bring up a number of people, you know, to a particular level where they can pass this thing. Where they can pass it, you see? And Sifu says this all the time. goes, I'm trying to make you guys better than me. But then he says, I'm not gonna make it easy because I'm still improving too. You know, so I'm not making it easy for you. Keep raising the bar. Yeah, yeah, keep raising the Like I said earlier, we're no longer chasing new material.
We're chasing his understanding as it unfolds and grows and expands. Yeah, that's what we're chasing. And so I wanna keep doing that for my students. And yeah, that's what I wanna do. And of course, continue to improve myself as well. I don't wanna be like a lot of people in my system and in other systems too that rest on the laurels of what they did 30 years ago.
I them the thumbs and belts crowd. Perfect. Because we all know somebody who the thumbs are in their belt. Yeah, the belt tuggers. And they walk around the event and they're like, yes. Yes, yes, those type. yeah, don't, nah, know, especially with the example, my seafood, you know,
Every three times a year, he's doing a public presentation for the seniors, for the juniors, and for those who are interested in the medicine. Three times out of the year, and that's for everybody in the association, not just his direct students. He's leading from the front. He's leading from the front. He's setting the example. He's showing it. And we probably have some thumbs in Belts.
folks watching right now. let me say this because I'm 99 % sure you agree with me. Yes. One of the worst things we can do as folks in the front of the room is cultivate a culture where our students believe we are infallible. Come on, man. And only demonstrate the things that we feel we are as close to perfect on as we're going to be when in actuality, the best thing we can do is show our students where we are lacking and what we are working on and getting better at.
Jeremy Lesniak (01:03:12.417)
because it reinforces to them that being in the front of the room does not mean perfection. It means that you are just that dedicated to continually getting better. Because anybody can put in the effort. That's right. Nobody can be perfect. No one. That's right. That's perfect. I relish the opportunities where my students get to see me learn. know what I mean? They're like, know.
my God, Sifu makes mistakes. my God, Sikung called Sifu stupid. my God, look, you know, Sifu's got his head, Sikung has his hands on his hip shaking his head at Sifu. my God, Sifu looks embarrassed. But then they see me two weeks later.
And they're like, how hell did it get so good so damn fast? You know? Yeah. So I want them to see, yeah, Sifu makes mistakes. yeah, Sifu, you know, he looks clumsy learning something new. But mean like all of us? But damn it, man. Four weeks later, he looks like he was born doing it. Like, what happened? Hard work. A lot of hard work. That's only way you get, right? It's- Only way.
I've been thinking about this a lot lately. The thing that martial arts teaches us the best is discipline. And the solution to every problem is discipline. Discipline. That's it. That's right. You might need some other ingredients, but if discipline's not there, the problem is not solved. The Asian way to express the forging of the will, we say that like in, you know, internal training, you know,
The intent leads the energy, right? What we wanna do is make our intent solid to the point where it's near tangible.
Jeremy Lesniak (01:05:08.011)
Yeah. Yeah. That that belongs on a t-shirt. That's some t-shirt stuff. Yeah. Yeah. We want to make the intent that solid. The will that solid, you know, and that takes discipline. just does. There's no other way. You know, I'm going to throw it back to you in a moment to close us out. But before we do that, socials, websites, what do we want to leave people with to find?
You could find me at Syracusefighting.com. So that's the URL to the website. You could find me on Facebook, Sharif Aniobay. You could find me on Instagram at SharifBay and on TikTok at CipuSharif. Yeah, I started seeing you on TikTok just like a month ago. was like, Sharif's on here. missed you for a while somehow. Right.
But of course to the audience, we're gonna link all that stuff at whistlekickmartialartsradio.com, transcript every episode we've ever done, check out over there, don't forget whistlekick.com. Because of all the things that we do, we're here to connect, educate and entertain the traditional martial artists of the world, get everybody in the world to train for six months. That is the mission, that's what we're here to do. So Sharif, I'm gonna throw it back to you. How do we close out? How do you wanna leave this for everybody watching and listening today? wow.
Jeremy Lesniak (01:06:35.213)
If you train martial arts or if you're desiring to train martial arts, to use the term self-defense, it's defense against yourself.
Jeremy Lesniak (01:06:50.795)
We are trying to kick the hell out of our own lower self.
That is the only worthy opponent. And it's taken me a long time to figure it out and a lot of lumps in the process. For sure.
Jeremy Lesniak (01:07:16.109)
I mean, I love the way you said it. You know, we're fighting against our lower self. Yeah, man. Yeah, That's powerful. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's, that's, there you go. It's that thing that says, you know what? I need to train, but you know what? I'm going to flip these channels and I'm going to eat these chips.
No, I gotta fight that guy. Yeah, I gotta fight that guy. No, that's not your highest self talking to you. No. That is the-
That's your lower self.