Episode 969 - Should Having a Black Belt be Required to Teach
In this episode, Jeremy and Andrew discuss whether having a black belt should be a requirement to teach.
Should Having a Black Belt be Required to Teach - Episode 969
SUMMARY
In this episode of Whistlekick Martial Arts Radio, Jeremy and Andrew discuss the evolving standards of teaching martial arts, particularly the question of whether having a black belt should be required to teach. They explore the differences in teaching ability and competency, the benefits of peer learning, and the importance of continuous education for instructors. The conversation highlights that teaching is a skill that can be developed and that rank does not necessarily correlate with teaching ability.
TAKEAWAYS
A black belt is not a universal standard for teaching.
Teaching ability is distinct from martial arts competency.
Peer learning can enhance the educational experience.
Instructors should be trained in teaching methods.
Rank can vary significantly between different martial arts schools.
Experience does not always equate to teaching skill.
It's beneficial for students to learn from peers.
Teaching can help deepen one's own understanding of the material.
Continuous education is essential for martial arts instructors.
The martial arts community is evolving in its approach to teaching.
Jeremy and Andrew are out of practice in doing the outro together.
CHAPTERS
00:00 The Black Belt Debate: Teaching Requirements
06:31 The Evolution of Teaching in Martial Arts
12:36 Peer Learning and Its Benefits
19:05 The Role of Experience in Teaching
24:53 Outro.mp4
After listening to the episode, it would be exciting for us to know your thoughts about it.
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Show Transcript
Jeremy (01:42.63)
What's going on everybody? Welcome back to another episode of Whistlekick, martial arts radio, the world's number one traditional martial arts podcast. I'm Jeremy Lesniak joined by my good friend, often co-host, producer of the show, good man and martial arts extraordinaire, Andrew Adam. Yeah, we've spent enough time together. I'm confident in saying all of those things about you. And today we are going to tackle the topic, should a black belt or the equivalent
Andrew Adams (01:59.445)
Well, I don't know that.
Jeremy (02:12.516)
be a requirement for someone to teach martial arts. Hang out, this is going to be an interesting conversation and we might surprise you on a few things as we get into this. Now of course, if you're new to what we do, please check out whistlekick.com for all the things that we are putting forward in an effort to get everyone in the world to train for six months because that is our goal. We're here to connect, educate and entertain.
Andrew Adams (02:17.622)
Boom.
Jeremy (02:41.392)
through traditional martial arts community of the world, no matter where you are or what you train or what your relationship to martial arts looks like. If you want to go deeper on this or any other episode of Martial Arts Radio, go to whistlekickmartialartsradio.com. All right, Andrew. This is a subject that I think has been around for a long time.
Andrew Adams (03:00.124)
Hmm
Jeremy (03:08.568)
and I think it's only fairly recent.
that it's become a question. When I was growing up, I suspect as you were too, it would have been unheard of for someone who was not a black belt to teach in a formal capacity, to have their own school, to cover classes when the main instructor was out. that right?
Andrew Adams (03:37.738)
Yeah, yeah, for sure. When I was growing up, we would never have seen, know, if Sensei couldn't make it to class, one of the other black belts was teaching.
Jeremy (03:50.094)
And if none of them could make it, class was canceled. This was common. Now, of course, I can't speak for every school. And I'm sure there were schools that did it differently. In fact, on Martial Arts Radio during some of our interview episodes, we've heard from a few guests who have said, you know, the high rank when the instructor left or died was a brown belt and they figured some things out. So of course, it wasn't 100%.
but I also didn't have as much connection to the broad martial arts industry through the 80s and 90s because I wasn't doing this. But everybody I knew, if you were at the front of a road, you were a black man.
Andrew Adams (04:29.11)
Mm-hmm.
Andrew Adams (04:35.712)
Yep, yep. Yeah, and it was the same. It was the same for me. It would have been like you said unheard of for it to be otherwise.
Jeremy (04:45.36)
But we're in this time now.
where it does happen a little bit. And here's where I see it the most. I see it most commonly in a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu program at a school that has other martial arts as well. We have some good friends that are not black belts in BJJ and they teach BJJ.
Andrew Adams (05:02.506)
Yep.
Andrew Adams (05:10.282)
Yep, they own their own school.
Jeremy (05:14.128)
Yep. Now there are some who, and I suspect a lot of those folks will come out of the Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu community, will point at that and say, well, it happens in BJJ because it takes a lot longer to earn such and such rank. know, I was reading through a thread online yesterday, last night about equivalency between, you know,
what's a first degree black belt in X art versus this rank over here. And there was general consensus that in BJJ, because of the time requirements as well as the philosophical understanding that is generally applied, and this is me regurgitating, my BJJ experience was three months, right? So I do not claim to know anything other than I'm really good at getting choked out.
Andrew Adams (05:48.368)
I hate that.
Andrew Adams (06:09.644)
You
Jeremy (06:14.178)
that a blue or purple belt is often an equivalent in BJJ to a first degree black belt in a lot of karate taekwondo schools. And I can see that in terms of time. And I can even see that to a certain degree with competency. there's the box that we're agreeing on. It is the stuff in this box that has made this question more front and center.
Andrew Adams (06:46.72)
Yeah, I think I would agree with you. The first time I that I've started to see it become more prevalent has been in BJJ schools. And it's usually a brown or purple belt. That's that's teaching. I've not personally experienced a blue belt running a program.
Personally, that's not to say that it doesn't happen or not to say it can't happen. Just it's not something I've had experience with but it's usually a purple or brown belt so, you know, I also have very limited BJJ experience But my understanding is if you're a purple belt or a brown belt you've been you've been training five ish years, you know for four to five ish years, so
That means you've been going to a lot of classes you already have an idea of how to teach just through osmosis, right? You've done a lot of classes. So Yeah, I guess we're basically in agreement. That's what I'm saying
Jeremy (07:49.798)
So as that question came up and became introduced, we started to see a lot of conversation around what is a blackmail and should this and should that.
Jeremy (08:08.09)
And I think you and I are on the same page that not only is it okay that black belts in one school are not equivalent to black belts in another school, but it's actually a good thing.
Andrew Adams (08:18.762)
Yeah. Yeah, we've talked about, we've talked about how, my feeling is, and I know that you agree as well, your black belt is just a way to recognize within your organization where you are at with their criteria. And this other school can have completely different criteria. And so it's, it doesn't make sense to compare one school's black belt to another school's black belt. Right.
Jeremy (08:20.996)
And so if it, go ahead.
Jeremy (08:48.094)
It is a level. could be, you could equally score or rank with numbers or letters or symbols or animals or anything else out of a set. It's a way to stratify internally, theoretically to help people understand where they are and show progressions, show educational level.
Andrew Adams (09:13.516)
Mm-hmm.
Jeremy (09:17.358)
and assist in their further development as a martial artist. Okay. So.
Jeremy (09:29.103)
If people get on board with that, then it becomes entirely possible that there plenty of schools, having a black belt does not mean that you have learned how to teach, even in environments where you've learned all of the material. In fact, I have said, and I've probably said it on the show a number of times, martial arts is the only industry I'm aware of where we expect that
Andrew Adams (09:44.576)
Yep, yep.
Jeremy (09:57.734)
competency is correlated to teaching ability. Every other industry I know of, it is well understood that, yeah, you know how to do this, now go learn how to teach this.
Andrew Adams (10:02.39)
Yeah.
Andrew Adams (10:11.5)
Yeah, it's their teaching and doing are very different things. I have some, and I know we've talked about this in the past, that you can be great at doing something and not great at teaching and vice versa. You can be great at teaching something, but not be great at doing something.
Jeremy (10:31.236)
And so when we, I think when we look at that, when we look at this idea that those two are disconnected and that they can exist independently. In fact, how many competitive martial arts coaches were not great competitive athletes or outside of martial arts? How many coaches couldn't do? When I was coaching CrossFit, what's that?
Andrew Adams (10:56.928)
Yeah. Yeah, it's a great point. I said, yeah, it's a great point.
Jeremy (11:02.65)
When I was coaching CrossFit, I was able to help people who were far better skill-wise than I was because I had a rudimentary understanding of what was going on through, because of other movement disciplines like martial arts. And I've got a pretty good eye for movement. it looks like your balance or your center or your leading here or whatever. I was able to help people that were several degrees better than me.
I can pick up 150 pounds, I'm helping people pick up 400 pounds. If we take that concept back into the martial arts, well, I can't pick up 400 pounds, so why would I ever be instructing someone on how to pick up 400 pounds? That's the you've gotta be, this level of experience to teach people below, you would never teach people above. There are still plenty of schools where that's a cardinal sin.
Andrew Adams (12:02.058)
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Yeah. Here's the other thing. Back up, Andrew. That was me backing up. You mentioned earlier that the place that you see it the most often is BJJ schools, but I want to add in there, there is another place that it happens commonly.
where you will have someone who's not a black belt teach and that usually tends to be around much smaller schools. Like if you have a karate school that only has one black belt, but you've got a brown belt or an advanced rank, and if there's only one instructor and that instructor gets sick or whatever, on a regular basis, I've seen multiple schools do this where they don't wanna cancel classes
for an entire week. And so because the instructor is sick, so instead he will have one of his advanced ranked students teach class, but that student might not be at Black Belt. So that I just wanna recognize that's another place that it happens fairly often. And that's usually a smaller school where there aren't other Black
Jeremy (13:18.512)
So if we work from this, if you are a, let's say, we've been talking about belts in BJJ, so let's just continue that belt progression, right? White, blue, purple, brown, black, okay. If you are a really good blue belt, even if you're a middling blue belt, should you not be able to help a white belt progress?
Andrew Adams (13:46.113)
absolutely.
Jeremy (13:48.932)
Does it mean you're as good with the material as a purple, brown, black? No, of course not. Hopefully not. But here's an important aspect that I think is often cast aside in this discussion. Andrew, you've taught, you've taught a number of things.
Andrew Adams (13:56.266)
Nope. Yeah.
Jeremy (14:12.74)
When you are teaching, do you not also learn?
Andrew Adams (14:16.341)
Absolutely
Jeremy (14:19.448)
And so I've brought this up on the show before by Taekwondo instructor. I would watch him at times when there were not enough assistants have people who had been training for just a few weeks. Hey, do you remember how to do this movement and this movement? Can you grab this person for whom it is their first or second day and help them a little bit?
Is the person who's receiving instruction on their first second day getting the best quality of instruction? Probably not. Are they able to move forward? Yes. But here's another component. The person working with them is also learning more and differently because now they have to teach it. And there's another component in there because there is less of a gap.
between the two of them. There is a stronger relationship. It becomes more of a peer support relationship, which I think is often much healthier than this dramatic top down that we tend to have in martial arts.
Andrew Adams (15:19.83)
Yep, exactly. That's what I was going to say.
Andrew Adams (15:27.658)
Yeah, yeah, I was gonna bring that up as well. So I teach drumming as well as martial arts. And there is definitely something to be said for having peers working together because they, a healthy, polite way, in a healthy way, can challenge each other because they're learning from each other at the same time in a different way. Like I can tell somebody,
Jeremy (15:51.462)
Sure. Sure.
Andrew Adams (15:57.034)
You know a student do this do this do this and they kind of get it and then a peer comes in says I'm doing it this way and this way in this way What's exactly what I said they should do but they're hearing it from someone else in a different way So absolutely, I don't think we can overlook that peer to peer learning
Jeremy (16:20.379)
It is well established in the teaching industry, you know, just broadly that the final stage of competency comes from sharing that information with someone else, teaching it to someone else. Okay. In schools where they are less strict about rank and teaching, I tend to see
faster progression, and less resistance to teaching. I've seen plenty of schools where somebody earns their black belt and they are suddenly expected to teach for the first time. That's terrifying. Teaching is a skill. What if all of a sudden at black belt you were asked to spar for the first time? You're gonna be nervous.
Andrew Adams (17:02.859)
Mm-hmm.
Andrew Adams (17:15.02)
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
Jeremy (17:16.528)
With every other martial arts skill, we progress. Teaching should also be part of that. Now, we had a conversation several years ago with, this was before it was martial summit. This is, I think our final year of free training day, maybe even the second to final of just free training day in the Northeast, where we said, what if somebody without a black belt wants to present to session?
Is that okay? Because it had never happened before.
Andrew Adams (17:47.798)
Yep. Yeah. And that was the first year we did it. Yeah, it had not happened before, but that was the first year that it had happened. Yep.
Jeremy (17:56.94)
And so that was like year five or six of free training day Northeast. And you and I had some conversation on that. And, and we ended up having roughly this conversation, but in a simpler way, a shorter time period. And we said, here's what it came down to. And I think this is where it's going to come down to for you and I here. If you have something that you know, that you can share that other people.
do not know and want to learn from you. Why not?
Andrew Adams (18:32.778)
Yeah, yeah, I think in this case, what it boiled down to was and it was a red belt in taekwondo that wanted to teach something that they had knowledge of being able to teach better than most anyone else. Whether they were a black belt or not, they were going to be able to teach this class because they were
for lack of a better word, an expert in that thing. Yep.
Jeremy (19:03.504)
They had personal experience on a specific subject that wasn't just a martial arts subject. was part of their life, part of their understanding, something they were passionate about and something that they had non-martial arts, academic and educational experience with.
Andrew Adams (19:13.356)
Mm-hmm.
Andrew Adams (19:20.448)
Yep, yep. And so that was, and we decided that, yeah, why would we not let this person teach a class? Because they are better suited to teach this class than most everyone else. And it is a class that people will benefit from. So why would we tell them no?
Jeremy (19:37.656)
Now, not quite to play devil's advocate, but to kind of take a step to the side and recognize rank roughly correlates with time, roughly correlates with skill. The more time and experience you have with a particular skill means you are likely more versed at being able to teach it than not. If we take a hundred martial artists,
Andrew Adams (19:53.452)
Mm-hmm.
Jeremy (20:07.138)
and 50 of them are black belts and 50 of them are blue belts. Randomly, if I'm asked, who do you want to learn from? I'm going to pick the black belt group. Not for any reason, not because I believe at black belt, you mystically become a great teacher, but because there's a better probability that the person I randomly draw knows more and is better at teaching it than the random blue belt.
Andrew Adams (20:31.904)
Mm-hmm.
Jeremy (20:38.618)
Bye.
If I have a situation where, let's say I'm gonna go train in kendo, in art that I have, you know, two hours of experience in at seminars, right? Yeah, lots of fun. I dig swinging a sword. Do I need someone with a hundred years of experience to help me progress? No. Pretty much anybody can help me move forward.
Andrew Adams (20:52.933)
Yeah, that's about me too
Andrew Adams (21:04.363)
No, absolutely not.
Jeremy (21:10.91)
somewhat. And I think when you start to look at your own progression as a martial artist in that way, things start to change. Who can help me advance in whatever way I'm looking for? Now that doesn't necessarily mean broad strokes, who can help me advanced in martial arts, or this particular style, or this system of this style, but maybe it's, you know,
I want to be a competitive for a forums competitor at a national level. Who can help me move forward there? Maybe it's someone who's been there done that. Maybe it's not. Maybe it's someone who's just really good at watching tape and going, the people who win tend to do X, Y, and Z. The people who come in second aren't as good at X, and Z. Let's work on your X, and Z.
Andrew Adams (21:49.612)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Andrew Adams (22:02.612)
Yeah. Sure, sure. Absolutely. Yeah, it all has to do with what you're looking to learn and the skill of that person learning, you know, the ability of that person to be able to teach that to you.
Jeremy (22:20.09)
So I don't know that there's a lot more to say on this.
Andrew Adams (22:24.381)
So can we turn the question around the other way?
Jeremy (22:27.556)
Yeah, please.
Andrew Adams (22:29.836)
Should black belts be required to teach? Or is this enough of a topic? Is that another episode?
Jeremy (22:36.134)
Should that be separate episode? I think that should be a separate episode. think, cause I don't, I'm looking at our time and I think we're going to spend another 20 minutes on that one. So I think that should be a separate episode. In fact, maybe we'll record that right after. Next week's on soon. Stay tuned. So we, we would be remissed if we didn't mention that it is because of this idea, this idea of disconnection between
Andrew Adams (22:45.204)
Yeah. So you know what? That's next week's episode. Stay tuned for part two.
Jeremy (23:05.702)
time skill of doing versus time skill of teaching that led to the creation of Whistlekick's MADC division, Martial Arts Teacher Training and Certification. And it was a passion of mine that came from recognizing there was a disconnect coupled with Craig Wareham, who's been on the show 42 and a half times. If you've been out there a while, you've watched or listened to several episodes with Craig, most likely.
Andrew Adams (23:11.948)
Mm-hmm.
Andrew Adams (23:29.132)
You
Jeremy (23:35.352)
And we collaborated on this and we put together what became Matic Level 1. There is now Matic Level 2. We are working on the online version of Matic Level 1 because for most martial arts instructors, regardless of where they are, they have figured everything out the hard way. And so we went back and we created a protocol and educational system that helps instructors learn how. So if you want to learn more, you can go to whistlekick.com.
Andrew Adams (23:53.994)
Yep. Yep.
Jeremy (24:04.767)
and check out MADEC and what we're doing with that and maybe sign up for a course.
Andrew Adams (24:10.463)
Yeah, I feel confident saying that taking the MADEC Level 1 course will make you a better teacher. That's not to say you're not a good teacher now. It will make you a better teacher, period.
Jeremy (24:25.735)
And I would suggest, why wouldn't you want to be a better teacher? If you're a teacher, why would you not want to be a better one?
Andrew Adams (24:32.822)
Yep, good point.
Jeremy (24:34.662)
We have had people come through that court. you know, this is, even though this feels like a commercial, I think this is also an important concept, right? Just because you're a black belt or just because you're a good teacher doesn't mean there isn't more to learn, right? We talk about that in terms of martial arts skill. There's always more to learn. There's always more to learn as a teacher. And when we rolled out the Matic Level 1, we trialed it with, I think, eight people. You were one of them.
Andrew Adams (25:02.732)
Mm-hmm.
Jeremy (25:03.788)
And at that time, you had been teaching drumming and martial arts and other things for decades?
Andrew Adams (25:10.922)
Yep. Yep.
Jeremy (25:12.792)
We had a 40-year veteran of public school education, as well as a number of multi-decade martial arts school owners, people that...
Jeremy (25:27.246)
We knew would give Craig and I honest feedback, but people that by all rights were fantastic teachers. I'd been in the room with plenty of them learning from them. And to a person, everyone said that helped me become a better teacher. Not necessarily in those words, but every single person gave feedback along those lines. Why? Because we can always be a better teacher. How do I become a better teacher?
Andrew Adams (25:52.128)
Yeah, absolutely.
Jeremy (25:56.484)
by giving that course, because every time I give that course, I find a way to improve how I'm doing it, and I become better as I'm doing it. And then when I go back and I'm working with my students in my school, I'll do something and go, yeah, I got that from Maddox last time we did it. And sometimes I'll text Craig and be like, ha ha, right?
Andrew Adams (26:02.828)
Mm-hmm.
Andrew Adams (26:12.438)
Yep.
Andrew Adams (26:16.808)
Because you learn a lot from teaching. That's what it boils down to. I get it. Cool.
Jeremy (26:22.598)
But it boils down to it. You don't have to be a black belt to teach.
Jeremy (26:30.138)
Boom, stamped.
Jeremy (26:35.562)
If you disagree, we want to hear about it. The best thing to do is join the Facebook group, Martial Arts Radio. You can also comment in various places on social media. You can email us, jeremyandrewatwhistlekick.com and let us know why you disagree. We are always open to feedback. We are always open to criticism as part of the educational process, part of what allows us to keep getting better as podcasters. If your school does it differently,
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That's just not what we do here. Whistlekick.com, WhistlekickMarshallArtsRadio.com, at Whistlekick, everywhere on social media. That brings us to the end. Until next time, train hard, smile, and have a great day. That was horrible. We are so out of practice on that.
Andrew Adams (27:42.06)
Train hard, smile, and have a great day. We're out of practice.