Episode 967 - Roundtable Discussion: Ego in Martial Arts
In this episode, Jeremy sits down with CJ Mayo, Michael Garner, Samuel Dahn, Desmond Diaz and Jennifer Lovell after Free Training Day Pacific Northwest and they discuss ego in martial arts.
Roundtable Discussion: Ego in Martial Arts - Episode 967
SUMMARY
This conversation delves into the complex nature of ego within martial arts, exploring its implications on leadership, learning, and personal growth. The participants discuss how ego can serve as both a barrier and a motivator, emphasizing the importance of humility and the willingness to learn from others. They highlight the distinction between confidence and ego, and how a white belt mindset can foster continuous growth and collaboration in martial arts communities.
TAKEAWAYS
Ego can be both positive and negative depending on its expression.
Hierarchy in martial arts can create barriers if not managed with humility.
Effective leaders listen to their subordinates and value their input.
Confidence allows for openness to learning, while ego creates fear of being wrong.
The martial arts community thrives on shared knowledge and collaboration.
Humility is essential for true leadership and growth in martial arts.
A white belt mindset encourages continuous learning and growth.
Ego can deter individuals from pursuing martial arts due to negative experiences.
The law of the lid suggests that a leader's limitations can hinder their students' growth.
Helping others grow is a fundamental responsibility of a martial arts instructor.
CHAPTERS
00:00 Exploring the Nature of Ego
04:01 Ego in Hierarchical Structures
10:16 The Role of Leadership in Martial Arts
15:49 Confidence vs. Ego
20:59 The Impact of Ego on Learning
25:54 The Importance of Humility
30:33 The White Belt Mindset
35:36 Ego as a Barrier to Growth
After listening to the episode, it would be exciting for us to know your thoughts about it.
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Show Transcript
Jeremy (00:37.972)
Ego is a subject that finds its way into probably every conversation on martial arts. Not always using that exact word, but we all know what ego can come from and can lead to. And, you know, Michael, Samuel, we just recorded our episodes. Ego pride came up in both of those episodes. Des, you and I have had several conversations about ego. spent
mean, Jen, you were there. long were we standing in the parking lot last night after dinner? An hour. With the five of us chatting about essentially ego and, know, CJ, I don't know that our conversations have ever directly focused on it, but everything that I've heard us talking about post free training day has really been a conversation about ego. So I'll let
Whomever wants to start, but let's start with is ego always bad?
Jeremy (01:50.698)
I would say maybe ego is bad in how it's expressed towards others. I think having even like a high self-confidence or value of yourself is okay because we all need to feel that as individuals we are important in our own lives.
When you're utilizing your ego to create, like we've discussed in past, a barrier or like a hierarchy to elevate myself above someone else, that becomes more problematic because now we're creating separation, we're creating distance, we're not living a part of the...
martial arts way, is to be inclusive and to create these settings that us all unite together. And now we're just saying like, am superior, I am better. And that creates more problems than it's worth in that space.
Yeah, I think I'll just add on to that. think that ego doesn't is doesn't necessarily have to be bad. It's when you try to make yourself supreme over somebody else and you try to push your agenda on it. And a lot of times, as bad as it sounds, the higher ranking black belt you are, it seems that those people have those individuals have the highest amount of ego a lot of times. And it's just that old or mentality of.
some schools for example, like there were some organizations, know, if I'm a ninth, eighth, ninth, 10th degree black, but don't talk to me if you're a first degree black. It's one of those of where they're not welcoming. So that ego comes across that they can do no wrong and that they're the grand pooh paw of the world or whatever it may be. And that's where I think the ego comes into a problem. If it's that confidence thing, you know, or the, or the, you know, the,
Jeremy (03:45.75)
I want to share kind of thing and let me share, show you, or let me help you understand what I know. Then I think that that is okay. But it's that when it tries to make you supreme over somebody else that I think that's when the problem comes in.
CJ, you brought up something and does, unless there's a part of your life that I've forgotten, you did not serve in the military, right? So four out of five of you were involved in the military in some capacity. so when you talk about I'm, you one person's a 10th on one's a first. We can look at it from the perspective of ego. If we look at it through a military lens, we could also look at it as there's a necessary amount of stratification because if the whatever commander top has every single
person at the bottom of the pyramid coming to them, they get nothing done, right? There's something to, would we call it chain of command in that context and its relevance?
Yeah, I can see that. I, because I was in the military during the Iraq Afghanistan timeframe and spent time over there and stuff like that. So the best lieutenants and the best officers I ever served under were the ones who were willing to listen to those under them. And we're willing to say, Hey, this person has experience here. No matter what their rank is, this person has experience here or this person has knowledge in this situation here. Let me listen to them and learn from them.
Even like the colonels that I worked with and the sergeant majors that I worked with and stuff like that. The ones that listened were the best ones that everyone respected. The ones that didn't listen and the ones that, you know, I'm a lieutenant, you're a sergeant or whatever. No one respected those people. They did what they were supposed to when it came to like your customs and courtesies because it's part of the military. But
Jeremy (05:33.302)
Respecting the man or respecting the woman But it didn't exist because they were they it was my way or the highway kind of thing and they didn't listen to reason So I think and I think in the martial arts that's kind of the way in some situations that that portrays and comes across as well I don't know if you guys feel different, but know building on what CJ said is that With the military especially with that hierarchy using that as an example
You're trained because you're brought up that military courtesy, you have to respect the rank. That has nothing to do with not you respect the person. And the difference in the two is that because you respect rank, you have to listen to what they say because they hold a higher rank because that's part of it. But give it a chance. In all honesty, if it comes down to whether I follow them or there's a cliff there and they might actually fall off that cliff, that goes a long
way because I have to respect the right that doesn't mean that I'll follow them all right or that I you know I'm gonna put the full effort into it you know I'm gonna do only what's necessary to to keep them off me but when you respect that person and respect the man or you know the woman in that case that's leading there's nothing the world you won't we've talked about before you know with the military you'll cross through the gates of hell with them all right and never once questioned any part of it because you know that they're there with you
They bring a set of, know, leadership by example, right? And they have the respect as well as the openness to listen and not be just so stuck on themselves that it's like, what's my way or the highway? Well, in that case, it's gonna be the highway. You're gonna be traveling by yourself. So what I'm hearing is...
Jeremy (07:26.678)
maybe a flexible chain of command or chain of command as a guideline, a default, but when it's relevant, I think I heard you say CJ, if that person that is subordinate has experience that is relevant and maybe that experience exceeds that of the superior, why wouldn't you default to it?
Yeah, and that's, give you an example of my experiences. I came back from the initial invasion into Iraq, 7-3-tell-4, because we got extended while I was there. But we came back and we got a new platoon leader, a new lieutenant. And that lieutenant that we had set us all down, and he said, anybody that has, that just got back, you now know more than me in the world of the military.
I know what the book says, but you guys know what real life says. So I'm going to default to my platoon sergeant and to you guys that have been there to help me understand what we're going to go into.
Where the other platoon sergeant was not like that from a different platoon I had buddies in that platoon and they were like, dude this guy who just Does not listen to us. We're trying to tell him that's not what's good. It's not how it works It's not what we do. It didn't matter. So it is it's is it a relevant experience? And is that person or anybody in the martial arts would that matter or military but are the in the martial arts since we're talking about that Is the is the instructor or the person that's senior to them willing to
listen to them and willing to grow as a martial artist. think too many people in a lot of times they just get stuck in their ways and don't ever want to grow. Where I think one of the good things about like free training day Northwest and stuff like that is there's so many different systems and styles and even people from the same styles they still teach differently and people are willing to just open their minds up and learn from each other. Well different
Jeremy (09:38.062)
In my program, in my karate class program is I teach students to become an instructor. Okay, how can I build them? How can I lead them? So what I'm looking at is he learning? Is he following the way I teach him? Is he setting an example? Where is his heart? Is he working with a student that is the worst of worst and he's over there mowing him and helping him?
then I spot. I look, observe. an instructor, you observing, you creating leaders.
But you're looking at where the leadership is. And then I have Yellow Bill have a beginner coming in and my Yellow Bill, he's just excited. He's like, why don't you go hold a shield and help that young man? Show him how to kick. You know how you building them up, right? What are we building? We're leadership. In the military, what are we building? We're building leadership. If a leadership that willing to listen to others, you get the job done well. I had a second lieutenant that...
It's his way. And his way got what? Two or three guys hurt. Why? Because he refused to listen from his unit. He had an opportunity, he got a second lieutenant coming in and listened to the experienced guy. The experienced guy wanted to keep you safe. The experienced guy, student that learning, he learned, he's fresh, he's excited, and then he's going to teach a white male.
It build him, it make him great. This is an important thing, Jen, I want you to respond to this, because you're kind of unconventionally qualified to speak to what I'm going to say. Samuel, you're talking about...
Jeremy (11:28.234)
making everyone responsible for the education of everyone else in the school. They are given the responsibility and the privilege of assisting even if it's in a small way versus the way a lot of, I think if we look at it this way, we could see a lot of the...
more egotistical martial arts schools where we say, okay, until you are XYZ rank, you cannot do ABC, right? You cannot teach until this. And so what does that mean? That means people are...
Younger in rank and they're waiting for their opportunity and once they get that opportunity They're gonna hold on to it because it's been denied to them, right? You know We've all worked with kids and had kids and we know what happens to kids, right? If they don't have the opportunity the moment they have it you can't have candy you can have candy today What are they gonna do? They're gonna eat until they're sick Right. And so Jen
Let's acknowledge it, right? You've been training a long time. You don't have a black belt and yet you've still had plenty of time teaching in your own school. no. I find it hard, especially being the lowest rank here. It's really hard to approach.
senior instructors with my rank. It's very intimidating. I have, you know, put myself out there and have been talking to black belts and I will be having a conversation whether it's free training day or something that's going on with the dojo and another black belt will come over and cut me off and stand in front of me and dismiss me. So I deal with ego a lot. I know the tournament rules almost better than
Jeremy (13:24.4)
than anybody and when I say, this is what's supposed to happen, nope. And so I deal with the ego a lot. I have a lot of experience. I have a lot of knowledge. I can't do everything, but I know the knowledge behind everything. And so I understand that there is the ranking system. It is there for a purpose, but there's a difference between confident and ego.
That's an important distinction and maybe we should... I just saw I think all of you nod along with that so maybe... I think it's a good way to put it. Can you speak to that? What is the difference between confidence and As you see it. Everybody here shows a level of confidence but they're approachable. Everybody here I could say something to and it's being heard. Everybody here...
respects me regardless of my rank. But honestly, I don't wear my uniform places because I get more respect of being a outsider of martial arts than I do as the rank that I am, even with my experience. Most black, a lot of black belts don't have the experience that I do, but they're better than quote better. Yeah, better than me. I think to that there's a cross section of ego and lack of humility.
And when you are confident in your abilities, you're not so insecure that you cannot receive information from any source. You're okay with just learning because learning helps improve you and is nothing that anyone could say that's going to take away from what you already know. So you're okay with what's going on here and you don't need to feel the need to belittle someone or ignore them or push them aside because everybody has something valuable.
you know as martial arts were called to serve our community and Sometimes we forget that to me the higher the rank the greater the call Because now you're going to not only serve just your cue bells So your beginners you're serving the higher ranks and your perspective is now going to affect a greater amount of people and you're Creating leaders we're creating leaders at every opportunity and you want them to have enough humility and confidence to help bring in
Jeremy (15:49.444)
the next generation and help inform them as we go. So it becomes a unique situation to be in as you're growing in your rank. I don't know why someone would climb higher and look down their nose at the lower.
but that seems to happen in certain spaces, unfortunately. You know, the whole thing that the ones with the ego, they've forgotten certain things. They forgot why they started martial arts. They've forgotten the whole thing of, most people start martial arts for a couple reasons. There's always, want my child or I want myself more disciplined. But the biggest thing is, I need a better sense of self-esteem. I need to build confidence.
So that starts off we both start building that self-esteem. We become confident in what we do, right? But then at some point time they forget that the whole foundation of that All right is first and foremost built on humility and that that being humble means that you're capable of all kinds of incredible things But that doesn't mean that you know that You're forcing it or that you're now closed yourself off to everything else. It doesn't talk about that that service part of that
is also that understanding that you are there to serve. you, that is part of that. I'm confident in what I do. I'm capable of all these things, right? But I'm open to giving that back to the populace, to the people, to my students. It's not simply like I'm closing that off and none of the rest of matter. Taking it from the martial arts, like I said, a lot of them forget that. Taking it from one other side of my-
side of it, in addition to that, is looking at from the native side. The native side, okay, some of greatest warriors ever walked the face of the earth. But the bottom line is that you were raised, all right, and even like today, okay, I'm a ceremonial dancer. It's called a sun dancer, all right? We are held at this huge high esteem by the people because of what we're willing to do. But from our side, we're supposed to be humble. It's not supposed to matter because our only purpose in life is
Jeremy (18:04.896)
serve the people is to take care of the people right no matter what how they see us it's our job to serve them at all points in time so that the others and the children you know the ones that are going to carry on these next generations these next levels of martial arts are learning the right way and they learn the maximum capability all right and hopefully learn to stay humble during that process and not hold on that ego where you know because the thing with ego eventually okay is if they're not open to expanding it
that mentality or that what they hold onto that so tightly that they're doing eventually dies out. So if they wanted to expand and they wanted to continue, they have to share and they have to be open to expanding, expressing it and not simply just closed off to like, I'm the end all, right? Because they will be the end all. You know, to speak on Jen's point, like, you've got...
Like you said, more knowledge on, you've taken more leadership teaching classes for martial arts related than I have. Like, cause I know your background, than I have, but, and we've talked about that stuff and whatnot. And I remember when you first were going to events, I was like, where are the uniform, where are your belt? And then we had a conversation about it. Well, if I do that, no one listens. You know, and the thing is, is like,
I've seen you interact with people in uniform and get ignored. I've seen you out of uniform and not get ignored as much, like you said. But even certain people that have those egos, they'll ignore us for.
because they just don't care what anybody else has to say. not everybody, there's some people that'll listen to us more so than they would listen to you no matter what. But there's a lot of those people that still won't even listen to us when we're trying to say something. And it's hard, especially, it's hard for me to like watch it with you, because I know you outside of karate, I know you, or the martial arts, I know you inside of the martial arts, stuff like that. But I think that that's where that ego part really hurts the martial arts in general, is because you ran
Jeremy (20:13.28)
of school that had 14, 16 people at one time in a community center and I think you had 20, maybe 25 or something like that. I'm short changing you a little bit, but like.
And you had parents that respected you and you had students and those students would go to places and watch that and get deterred. And it would deter them from wanting to continue in the martial arts clinic. I don't want to be like that person. And that's a, that's a harmful thing in general. And then, you know, you try as instructors, we try to show our students that there's another side to things, but sometimes that bad taste leaves that in people's mouth and it's so hard to get rid of it. know, and I think it's difficult.
creating bad habit is one of the bad root so the characters of developing young student is inspire, encourage and the key word that I always use is called shape. Shape the student how you want it. Spiritual, hard.
personality and experience.
those are the shaping that person. So as a student teachers, when we share our student, we build them, we develop it, and then we shape them. And then when we give them a little bit ingredient and power of authority, let's see how far they go with it and see are they mature enough to teach themselves about.
Jeremy (21:58.702)
And I go, I'm better than you, let me show you now. I wanna see how you teach it. And that's we develop. And you got a green belt and go, welcome with the yellow belt. And that's when I develop. And I'm starting to see how they mature and grow and they change, they're different. And it's by the time they reach to their brown belt level, you become a black belt level. Okay, let's see where your level at.
Are you humble enough to lead the whole group with humbl- willing to help?
The lowest one, let's fix this, fix that. See, we have student that, I'm better fighter than you. You have student that is better fighter, you have student that is better at kata, right? We have different character. So shaping them up is the most important responsibility as an instructor. We shape and we mold them and develop how you develop characters. And it's the same thing with char.
We talk a little bit about church. You want a church to be like this? you want a church joyful and happy and be glad to be there. And a lot of pastors they walk into church and they feel like, I gotta follow the traditional, know, or how you want to lead them? You want to lead them exciting or you want to lead them a boarding church or boarding class? Same thing in karate.
The sad thing is that people don't come up to me and ask me about my experience or how long I've been doing something. They look at my belt. So it's really hard for me because the transition between different schools and stuff like that, it's really hard for me to be like, here's my experience. Because I've even had under black belts try to tell me,
Jeremy (23:59.149)
who've had less experience but because of my belt rank this is where I fall I didn't go out there and tell other people I have a school I have this many students I have this what I did do is when a parent said hey do you know of anybody who teaches karate or anything like that that's when Jen says hey I have a school it's free except for I charge insurance because I had to protect myself but I didn't go out into the world and be like I have a
school. This is where I met in my life. I never did that.
My my experience is my belt your guys's experience is your belts And it's unfortunate. It really is But when you guys show your confidence, I mean, that's how i've met everybody here is because of your confidence not because of your ego Not me show confidence You step in now you the confidence you the strength you the ability you got more confidence than me
Jeremy (25:03.677)
I don't I get what you're saying though because you you were almost to your blackboard at another school and then you switch schools and you work your way up to almost a blackboard that school and then you had injuries and back surgeries and battery packs and Stuff like that, but
So I get what you're saying. When we all walk in a room in uniform, people will gravitate to asking us things more than they'd ask you. But you have a lot of experience that none of us have. And you have different experiences than we don't have. But you're right. And I've seen it, so it's different for me compared to some others. But I understand that. I'm going to say something I don't think I've ever said on the show. Because my experience, Jen, is a lot closer to yours than you may.
Realize when when whistle kick started I? Spent a lot of time. How do I get in front of people? How do I share what we're trying to do? How do I build these relationships? Because one of my professional philosophies is it it's all networking It's all relationships right no matter what it is. We're trying to do it all stems from relationships and so I was out and about attending events and then saying hey, you know, can I Can I share some of my my knowledge with you folks next year, right?
and inevitably one of two things would happen. They would look at my belt, which had no stripes on it, and dismiss, or they'd ask me to send in a bio, which had no indication of stripes because I was a first degree for 20 years.
Jeremy (26:45.768)
And now, part, because there, don't, I literally, I don't put stripes on my belt, but because they could be there, right, I am treated differently by some circles. But it's also why at Whistlekick events, why at free training day, there is no rank requirement. There is no, you have to be a black belt to present.
And that's important to me because if you have something to share, whether it's, you know, Samuel, like you're saying, you know, a yellow belt, my Taekwondo instructor would have people sometimes literally on their second day say, okay, so, I got like 19 groups of people go and I don't have enough assistance. Remember that stuff I taught you last week? Help that first day person through some of it. Are they going to teach it perfectly? No. Are they going to get them further down the path? Yes.
So one of the things that, I mean, we've talked about humility and confidence and ego and so forth. One of the things I see that's different between confidence and ego, honestly, is that when it goes to ego, there's a fear factor that gets involved with it now. And that fear is that...
I might be proven wrong, that I may not know exactly what I'm talking about, or it may be something better, and so I'm going to either lose those students, or I'm going to seem like I am not as knowledgeable as I would like to be. Confidence itself, there's not those fears. And if there is those fears, we go to the side of courage that says we move through even though we might be afraid of things, but that's where that humility kicks in and says, all right, I have this
All right, I have the courage to make it through it and I'm gonna address that that fear and fix it by bringing in more things are gonna in turn make me more confident so that fear no longer exists with ego what the other thing I see is that I'm not willing to do that. I have this fear and therefore I'm not going to let anybody else possibly change that or make me look bad or Take away anything because I'm gonna close it off to the point that
Jeremy (29:00.898)
all right, they can't get to that. And that's one of the major things I see between the difference between confidence and those people that have the humility and can open themselves up, they don't have that same fear of being wrong or learning something different or saying, hey, somebody might know more than me and maybe I need to spend the time to learn.
I think a lot of it comes down to that white belt mindset. I just got back from Okinawa a couple months ago and there was a couple of dojos in there that we were white
And every single dojo I went into, I tried to put my white belt on first and a couple of instructors told me to change. But the ones that we were able to keep our white belts on to is because we were there to learn. There was no like, I've already learned this so I can, I'm this, but no, we're there to learn. it's a white belt. And a lot of instructors, matter, at least I've never heard an instructor not say this is, yeah, keep that white belt mindset, but it's how they act. That's, that's a lot different too. And it's
It's one of those, are you doing what you're saying or saying what you do? And I think that that's where that a lot of that fine line comes into as well. Like, you your whistle kick belt that has your white on one side and black on the other is, it's that mindset of, if I flip this belt over, I'm just a white belt, you know? And I'm here to learn, I'm here to share, I'm here to, you know, like train people to be leaders. I'm training people to, that we're all just one big family in work.
all like we joke around a lot we've known each other a long time like our personalities are just crazy but it's it's one of those things where it's how can we just all get along and why does one person have to have status over another
Jeremy (30:53.934)
You know, I made sure that I did not want to be judged on belt. So that's why I came to dojo's regular clothes. First time you met Jeremy, you were an empty hammer pan. You got that. Of course I did. And, know, because I recognize, you know, even when I go to all schools, I usually check a day class or an evening class because I like to see different teaching styles. And I want you to treat me as a person and not suddenly
Jeremy (31:27.892)
I'm supposed to wear I just wear a solid black and and because I just want it to be a very simple process you treat me as an individual We'll get to know each other as we train and and as they some people meet each other in tournaments I go to dojos door to door. Can I train with you? it okay if I do this? I try to be as respectful as possible. It's not my house I'm not gonna wear, you know a black belt that I earned over here if I don't belong if I didn't earn it in your system like that's Kind of how I feel I want to give everybody the most
and comfortability so that we can build meaningful connections. And some of that other stuff gets in the way. So you try to avoid all of that and just try to keep it simple. So if you already have a black belt, you have to go down to black belt so that you feel like an individual. And for me, I have to wear straight clothes. You know, I've interacted with many higher ranks that do the same thing that you've experienced where I talk to them with something and they look down. And then they go, you're still talking.
So I understand where you're coming from. It's hard. When I was helping CJ at tournaments, and he would send me to a ring to go talk to an instructor, go talk to this person, go talk to this person, and I'd come back and they won't. They're not talking to me. I tried to tell them. I tried to do this. I tried to do that. And then when I started to happen out with free training day last year, I had
to go up to people because I did I've never had conversations with anybody before at a tournament or anything like that the only person I really had a conversation with was CJ nobody really communicated nobody and I tried to talk to people and I tried to do things and I couldn't do anything so then last year street clothes you know how many people I talked to I talked to everybody you know your situation is almost like my son's when it comes to like his
Growing up with martial arts because when he first started going tournament, he wasn't Caden, right? He was that CJ's kid and then it was that's Caden CJ's kid and then that's that's Caden He's one of CJ's he's one of CJ students and then it was it's Caden CJ's kid and now it's Caden and you're you not being a black black belt
Jeremy (33:53.362)
is one of that is like that process because I remember last year when you were trying to do it you're like can I just tell them I'm your student that way they'll listen and I was like yeah you are my student but yeah so go ahead it was hard because I didn't want to name drop right I wanted them to they wanted you acknowledge you right and I get it and you're like can I just tell them that I'm your student that way they'll actually listen to me and I and so that's when I said like I've seen it firsthand with you because we've talked about it yeah and then this year when you were like
that person what's his name okay I'll go talk to him no I got this and so like you do it but then you're right some people wouldn't even listen to you no still and I think last year you had to talk to people for me because even though I approached them and asked them I got zero response so then you did it and then I was getting responses I went last year I worked last last year I worked almost every tournament
marketing free training day and I went to every tournament I drove I paid all the entrance fees I did everything to present or to represent free training day and nobody would talk to me it was it was hard and it and it beats you down there's a there's a commonality that's coming up and you know I want to watch the time and so we'll start to to wind
here but I think if I take everything that you've said that kind of put it together here's what I think I'm ego ego is a barrier that comes from fear that people use and they put it in front of them
And in the same way that someone with a large ego will look at rank progression as an opportunity because now they are not responsible for having to serve as many others all of you Because they don't have because they are no longer expected to continue learning right all of you would look at that and say I'm missing out. I want to continue learning. I don't care what my rank is. Don't deprive me of this opportunity
Jeremy (36:06.256)
opportunity. it comes back to, and what's the word in Japanese? Is shoshin? Shoshin. Beginner's mind? Roughly what it translates as? Mushin. Okay. So once again it comes back to love of training. If you want to train, if you want to develop and continue to learn more, it's the antidote to ego.
versus I don't have to train anymore. I don't have to learn. know as much as I need to.
Jeremy (36:45.836)
becomes a barrier. Respond.
I think that's exactly it. Like you nailed it. I think, I think it's when people stop realizing there's more to learn. And that's where I think like people get caught up in styles. Like all of us do different stuff except for Jen. But Jen, you do a different style because you do a blend.
But all of us, for the most part, do different styles except for Jen's with me, Trane's with me. She does it her own way. But she does it her own way. can't take that away from her. But we all are willing to learn from each other.
Like, Dez comes over to my dojo almost once a week and we cross-train together and on Saturdays we'll meet up and go through things and stuff like that. And I've been to everybody's dojo here, so. But like, and I think that's it, is when people stop thinking that there's more to learn and they get style specific and they so high rank in their style that they know all the curriculum, that I think that that's where that mind block comes in, that ego comes in, where if you have that mind, there's always more to learn. There's always something.
And it's just like what you talked about yesterday for free training day when we were having our instructors meeting is everyone's going to teach the basic part of it, but you may teach it a different way than someone's been taught before. And I mean, like I taught the first class of the day or one of the two in first class of the day. And I taught one punch, one kick and one stance, I think. And or block. I didn't even teach a kick. Well, I did teach a block, a kick, a strike and a stance. And it was like.
Jeremy (38:28.032)
super easy but then everyone was like not everyone but a couple people were like i never thought about doing it that way before or why we do it that way that's where i use the word simple versus easy they're not the same what i just heard you say it was simple but not necessarily easy because there's a lot of right and complexity and nuance right and i think that that's where like we can all learn from each other and that mindset's got to keep going and that's where i think you lose that ego yeah so i think that martial arts as a whole is a puzzle and
I think that everybody has a piece and when you have your ego you're not sharing your piece of the puzzle. I think that you're allowing there to be a block so you're like holding on to this knowledge and you're like haha I have this and you don't and you don't have it because you're not at my level.
how do I get to your level? Well can't. You know what I mean? It's just, it's hard because I like to talk to people and I get information. CJ, no, I mean he limited me to 20 questions a day. He was 25. He limited me because there's, because no matter what school you go to, you're, you're, you can spend years and years out of school and they can teach you all of this stuff, but that's still not a piece of that puzzle. And so it's
If I need help with something, if I have a student that isn't quite grasping something, I'm like, hey, I've been teaching this kid this for months now. And you come in and you're like, here's my piece of the puzzle. Have them chamber higher, have them turn their hip wider. I'm like, thanks for your piece. But we can't do that if the ego's in the way. We can't put that puzzle together. I 100 % agree. I always feel like ego is the death of growth.
Ooh, say that again. Ego is the death of growth. Exactly. There are some systems, and I'll get out of this as an offender, but you know... Do you really hope that? I think we all know you well enough to know that I don't think you actually mind if it offends people. If you hear this and you know it me, just expect that you understand. But, know, many systems, 10th is the highest and master of the system. That's you can in a curriculum.
Jeremy (40:57.026)
I personally believe I will never achieve 10 degree status because I feel like there's always something to learn. You can put it on my grave when I'm done, because at that point I'm pretty sure I can't learn anymore at this point, I'm dead.
If you want to say then at that point I've done what you feel like would be considered master at that level, feel free to put that certificate in a flame proof seal and leave it on top. Why does it have to be flame proof? Because there's a lot of houses that get burned down. There is a currently at large serial arsonist that only hunts martial artists and their certificates and I don't want to be caught in that. But you better have one in a bulletproof safe.
Jeremy (41:42.979)
But you want to make sure that nothing impedes as constant. Share experiences, gain perspectives and each achievement usually is just an elevation of said perspective. You spend time at those ranks to gain maturity in a system when you have this ego, it nullifies any
potential for that and then you are now putting yourself in the box that you can't get yourself out of. You put yourself in the box exactly because you can see many system they reach to that red bill but once that red bill already guess what they reach in the next they go back to the white bill they go back to the basic and that's why they say knowledge
We have black hair now, as we learning, we gain knowledge and wisdom. Wisdom develop what? What color? Platinum. So that's why many other systems in Asia, may not show it, they may not tell you, but all the real humble masters, they go back, they put on white belt. And I tell you, the reason I'm saying this, because when I was...
Jeremy (43:32.716)
His technique and everything was so perfect and just... I answered. And I'm looking... Like I said, I'm looking at his white belt. And I said... To myself, said...
Jeremy (43:48.537)
And then you have guys that come in the tournament, they are high ranked, they put on white belt. And they out there competing with white belt. And they know their ability. They want that gratification of winning. They want that gratification of That's their thing. And I spot that. And I recognize it. I say, okay, this guy is done.
That's where the big word is I. What destroys us most? I, the letter I.
Jeremy (44:26.228)
At my previous school, we used to take a lot of students down to all the tournaments. And I was the mother hen of everybody. I think at one tournament, we almost had like 100 people down there. Surprise. So we went down there. And we were having all kinds of problems with the tournament. Now, just like everybody else, you all have heard of CJ, right? And so everybody's we're happy.
so many problems and I'm like okay I need to find out whoever the CJ dude is and I need to go talk to him and I need to have him help me figure this out right? Me okay I'm in am in uniform and I walk up to him and I I go and he grabs the chair turns the chair around sits down he goes what can I help you with?
And I just went.
Okay? So...
So it makes a difference. And that was years ago. And every time that I had a problem, I would go to him and ask him. And I got the same responses every time. What can I do? What's going on? Service. Right. as the arbitrator, he's there for a purpose. As a coach, I'm not supposed to just go up and talk to him. That's other people's jobs, right?
Jeremy (46:04.901)
That eagle wasn't, isn't there, okay? That wasn't there. I was able to approach him. Okay? I wasn't able, obviously, to approach any of the center judges. I wasn't able to approach anybody else there. I had to find my way over to him and be like...
Right? Yeah. So, so it matters. A leader is great when a foot soldier or personnel can walk up to a superintendent or a boss and easy talking to him like you and me. It made that person go ten times go mild with that person. Right. Because the ego itself, will destroy, disrupt the person will not talk and communicate. Because I remember
I will build a building for GM plan and all the GM big project engineers and owner of GM plan and Here my company saying a lot of women and stuff in super tune that they cannot communicate They all get laid off they get sent away. They can't communicate and yet here I am I place the owner place me in a spot I Have to answer a bunch of those and that's why I'm saying when you're working with a person
And if I can make that person feel...
Jeremy (48:24.684)
You should be surprised how much you open. Even by just sitting and listening, you're letting that person have a shoulder. That's what everybody looking for, is somebody to have a hearing, or in supporting, and that's what you're doing. When Jake open that, sit down and listen, he give you full attention. That mean he open up that freedom, guess what, that feeling that, I'm...
It's so easy to communicate. It's so easy. It's humble. So just based on what Sam has said, with white hair, I should have a wisdom like nobody else. I've got it right there. So CJ. Yeah, so CJ. Well, except for the fact he doesn't have hair. So he's got a lot of wisdom because they all fell out. All my wisdoms is one spot right here.
Jeremy (49:20.014)
going over everything that was said, one of the things that got brought up is all these basically different paths, and that we all look at it. You and I in our conversation, we talked about reaching that high mountain. There's multiple faces to that mountain. There's multiple angles. There's multiple sides. And every single one of us has that path that's going up there. And we all want to get there with each other so we can be at that top. We can look at both those clouds.
Every path is going to be different that gets there. As long as we continue to climb, we eventually get to that point where, like Desmond says, hopefully by the time that I die, I've reached that point where I can feel that, all right, I accomplished this. But the other part of that is the whole leadership. And if you ever read the 21 Fundamentals of Leadership, one of the ones that's on there is that law of the lid. And if you're a leader, especially with
and things like that stops here, then that means that all the students come up to here and stop right there. Which means that the next students stop here and then stop here. And pretty much, you've taken this art, this incredible thing, and by the time that it's done, 15 students later, it's down here. It's no longer this incredible, beautiful thing. You've watered it down or you've dropped the bar to where they don't have the thing to reach for.
You know, one of the things I was taught as a leader in addition to that is the simple fact that I teach it to my students. You and I talked about this already. What was the understanding that as a leader, all right, as an instructor, my job and my whole purpose is to train you and to help you become better than me. So that a lot of live no longer applies. If I can't make it to the of the mountain, I'm going to help you and push you to the point that you can so that it continues everything and holds it to a higher level. whether you go, that won't happen. It'll stop right there.
that it destroys growth, destroys wisdom, it destroys the ability to actually learn. This was great. And what I love about the conversation that we had is I think I have a clearer understanding of ego, right? I think we all came into this on, if not the same page, a similar page that ego is at least usually harmful.
Jeremy (51:47.5)
But now I think we've put some things on the table that I don't know about all of you, but I can start to think through even more and what that means for me as a human being, as a business owner, as a martial artist. And that's great. So I want to thank you all for being here and for your...
eagerness, willingness to chat on the subject.
Thank you.