Episode 963 - 2 Schools of Thought: Should Testing be Mandatory
In this episode, Jeremy and Andrew are joined by guest Tommy Given as they do the next in their new series: 2 Schools of Thought. They take a topic and look at 2 different ways to do it, exploring pros and cons of both.
Should Testing be Mandatory: 2 Schools of Thought - Episode 963
SUMMARY
In this episode of Whistlekick Martial Arts Radio, Jeremy and Andrew are joined by guest Tommy Given for another episode of 2 Schools of Thought. This time they discuss the topic of testing in martial arts, specifically whether it should be mandatory or optional. They explore various perspectives on testing, including the rationale behind it, the impact of test anxiety, and the role of instructors in facilitating a positive testing experience. The conversation emphasizes the importance of communication between students and instructors, as well as the need to consider individual student needs and preferences when it comes to testing.
TAKEAWAYS
Testing in martial arts can be either mandatory or optional depending on the school.
Optional testing allows students to progress at their own pace without pressure.
Test anxiety is a common issue that can affect students' willingness to test.
Instructors should facilitate discussions about testing to understand student perspectives.
The rationale for testing includes providing benchmarks for student progress.
Students may not want to test due to fear of failure or competition.
Communication between students and instructors is crucial for a positive testing experience.
Instructors should avoid teaching to the test and focus on holistic learning.
Balancing competition and personal growth is important in martial arts training.
Creating a supportive environment can help students overcome testing challenges.
CHAPTERS
00:00 Introduction to Testing in Martial Arts
03:01 The Case for Optional Testing 06:00 Understanding Student Perspectives on Testing
08:50 The Rationale Behind Testing
12:02 Exploring Test Anxiety and Its Impact
15:11 The Role of Instructors in Testing
17:49 Balancing Competition and Personal Growth
21:02 The Importance of Communication in Testing
23:53 Final Thoughts on Testing in Martial Arts
After listening to the episode, it would be exciting for us to know your thoughts about it.
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Show Transcript
Jeremy Lesniak (00:07.582)
Jeremy, we're in a car. We are in a car. Hello everyone, welcome. It's another episode of Whistlekick. Martial Arts Radio, if you're listening versus watching, you're gonna miss out on the full experience because I am in a car with Andrew and Tommy Given and we are headed to Philadelphia for a free training day mid-Atlantic. Now this episode is not about that. This episode is about what? Two schools of thought, should testing.
be mandatory or optional.
So of course we're gonna not include in that conversation schools where there is no testing because those schools do exist. That is irrelevant to our conversation, but let's acknowledge it here that it does exist. Before we get into the meat of the conversation, please make sure you check out whistlekickmartialartsradio.com for all of the things that we have going on with this show, transcripts and what's not.
Signing up for newsletters and such so you can get all the behind the scenes And of course if you're new to what we do whistlekick.com is how you would find out about things like our events like the one that we're going to or the other content we produce Beyond martial arts radio as well as the products that we make all the things that we do to support you as traditional martial artists of the world
There's a speed trap ahead. There's a speed trap ahead. And see, one of the fun things about these car episodes is they're about as raw as yet. Yeah. So I'm not going to edit that out. No, there's no point. And I was thinking when you were saying if you're listening, you're going to miss out. Well, if they're listening, they're definitely going to tell we're in a car either way, because I'm sure the ambient noise of driving is more than regular episodes. I'm sure it is. Yeah, I hope it is. Otherwise, that speaks poorly of our regular episode. that's far. It's not that quiet.
Jeremy Lesniak (02:02.786)
That's All right, Andrew set us up. All right. So first off, Tommy, yes, it's great to have you here with us. You're our this will be our second. Make sure you sit forward. Make sure you project there because that's I'm not saying like do anything dangerous. We get an accident. But just know that that's that's where the mic is. I told you if you're not watching, you're missing, especially this one. So I was going to say this will be the second
Two schools of thought where we've had three people on. Because I did an episode with Nick Taber and Stephen Watson. so it's kind of great. It's great to have a third voice on this episode. setting this up, I don't remember who sent this to me, but this was sent by someone on the team as to two schools of thought. Should testing be mandatory or should it be optional?
So before we go any further, I need to mention. There's a speed trap ahead. He needs to mention there's a speed trap ahead. Beyond that, testing in my school is optional. This was something that was important to me to construct. And, you know, we can talk about.
gonna end up talking about the why but I can talk about maybe I should explain what that means and how that happens.
It's actually optional in my school as well. interesting. So here's what we do. My students at any time, within reason, can ask to be evaluated. And that's the term that we use. It's an evaluation. You can be evaluated on some of the curriculum or all of the curriculum. And it's run like a low pressure test. It's solo with you and one instructor.
Jeremy Lesniak (04:00.942)
The premise being, where are you? We have semi-objective standards. have metrics, so for example, a backfist is part of our curriculum. In order to progress to Yellow Belt, you have to do a number of things, but your backfist has to be at a level one. I'm not gonna go into what that means. For Blue Belt, you need to be at level two. Green, three, brown, four, black, five. So...
evaluation determines where you are at and once you have checked all your boxes and the best comparison I have for this is like Boy Scouts, right? You've got your requirements once those requirements are in then you are eligible for testing. At that point the student needs to express I want to do this but the first part of it is on the student. do, I might once in a while mention to a student like
is evaluation and testing something that is of interest to you, but the bonus is on them. They have to come forward and say, want to evaluate.
So I'll put a pin in that and maybe Tommy wants to talk about what his format is. So mine's actually fairly similar and we don't do an evaluation in that sense. But what it is is I see the desire, they express the desire to want to go ahead and test for the next sash or maybe a promotion in some way else. Some of the arts that I do teach, like you mentioned earlier,
not have tested. There's no testing in Tai Chi, there's no testing in Kalai. However, in the Kung Fu and in the Aikido end, there is. So, it really depends on the individual. I do have some students that go from a desire to learn one thing and then they're interested
Jeremy Lesniak (06:00.812)
emphasis on what they want to do in the testing part when you make that desire.
you
and they have time to go with that shing.
Jeremy Lesniak (06:22.382)
and judges.
Jeremy Lesniak (06:35.15)
Someone's not testing that day, they're still allowed to.
Jeremy Lesniak (06:41.235)
because not everybody's looking for that necessary.
There's a speed trap ahead. Hey! sash or...
Jeremy Lesniak (06:59.598)
Initially in my school.
Jeremy Lesniak (07:07.691)
Okay, so how are you used you have a school coming? are you going to do?
So I look at it.
What's the rationale my first thing my head goes to is what's My rationale or our rationale for testing in general like there are schools that don't whether it's Tai Chi or boxing or Kali or whatever Why do we do testing and I'm going to answer for myself. It's so that
and other students can have an indication as to where they are in the curriculum, where they are in, to some degree, ability. That's not to say that someone with a lower rank couldn't necessarily be better at something than someone at a higher rank, but in general, I think that's fairly In the traditional model, that's usually how we look at it. And so...
Then my head goes to, if I had a student, and this has never come up in any schools that I have helped run. I don't currently own a school, but it's in the works, or managing a school. I've not had a student come to me and say, Sensei, or you have told me that I'm testing in a month and I don't want to. I haven't had that happen. But my head then goes to,
Jeremy Lesniak (08:42.254)
What would be the downside of saying, okay, you don't have
Jeremy Lesniak (08:50.254)
So to you guys, and I have one, I want to, is there a downside to having a student continue to train in our arts and not actually test? It depends on the curriculum and how it's formatted. Okay. So again, one of my goals in setting this out was how do I create an environment where people can show up occasionally as visitors or...
know, they leave for a month or maybe it's a kid they're leaving for a sports season and they don't feel like they're behind. That's something we've, I talk about with schools, I consult with them, it's something we've heard about on episodes and I wanted to, I thought I could find a way and so I did. So, plural this time. So my curriculum is simple, there are 25 techniques.
You are expected to know all of them for Yellow Belt. You just have to know them better as you progress. The other things we have are the implementation, sparring, and forms. We have five forms, kata. You are not required to know anything beyond the first form for your first wreck.
In most schools, that would be gate kept. You would not be able to learn the second form until you reach that rank. I do not feel the need to gate keep that. I'm not gonna tell someone, you don't wanna promote. You know your first form.
can't learn the second. Okay, so you know all the material really well and you just don't have a belt. I don't care.
Jeremy Lesniak (10:40.846)
Tommy, do you have any thoughts on that? So the only time that I would see hurting somebody is somebody who...
Jeremy Lesniak (11:18.37)
Beach
Jeremy Lesniak (11:40.535)
safe when after entering
That's called my.
Jeremy Lesniak (11:49.26)
Sigh.
Jeremy Lesniak (11:53.655)
demonstrating
Jeremy Lesniak (12:02.914)
way
in the pier.
Jeremy Lesniak (12:10.881)
gonna I was gonna bring up what's yours what are there well so you said you had a downside maybe you're leading up yeah I just want to make so one of them is the tournament thing which I'll get to but the first one I thought of is and and I'm I am definitely going extreme because I want to make sure we look at both sides of this but and we talked something about this years ago
when you started training at a new school and you went in as a white belt. And the, I don't want to say problem I have with that, because I didn't have a problem with it, but the thing that came to me was if I was a brand new student in that class and I saw you with a white belt on, I would be like, why am I here? Like this guy is a white belt and he's so good. my gosh, why should I even bother to try?
And if I have a student in my school that has been training for 15 years with me and has just never tested and is still continuing to wear a white belt, any new student I have come in might see that as a barrier. Sure. Now, that's a simple solve. Absolutely. Just a discussion with the student. Hey, just you know. It's a discussion or, you know, if that person... So in my school, they're not wearing white.
but it's the same thing, right? So because of the culture that is being created without belts, I have students that have been training a year. They know the material. They've never wanted to evaluate. And I do my best to kind of, and this is gonna lead into the negative I see, because nothing's perfect, as I gently prod them.
Jeremy Lesniak (14:09.061)
Like, I'm like, ehh. If a new student comes in and they see, that person over there seems to know the material way better than the people over here, there could be a discussion. But what I find more is that that new person, no matter what's going on around them, thinks that they don't know anything. And it's almost irrelevant, not entirely. But here's the place that I think it actually really does matter. How many people have test anxiety?
How many people
being challenged. We have people on the core team, I'm not going to name their names, some of them will watch or listen to this episode, where I have challenged them to do certain things in their lives in affiliation with Whistlepig that they did not want to do, that they are better off, admittedly, objectively, better off in their lives because I challenged them. And I am removing with my school the way that the
the ways that an instructor might often accomplish.
Jeremy Lesniak (15:19.053)
So here's a question for you both. Why, what are some reasons that students would not want to test? You mentioned one, test anxiety. Are there other reasons that a student might say, I don't want to test? Here's a stumbling block for me. I love to
no doubt and I enjoyed getting in there training for it going forward and maybe as a green belt going into the next division. I remember that when I was younger and I've had students come up to me have absolutely zero desire.
So it was hard for me to come up with a way.
I couldn't relate to that. I honestly could not relate to the point of, well, you don't want to compete. And then I realized that, well, you know, not everybody's made the same, obviously, but...
find ways to challenge them. Going for a test was a good way to do that.
Jeremy Lesniak (16:35.885)
enough anxiety for that just to show up that day so I had to take a step.
Jeremy Lesniak (16:44.375)
So.
Jeremy Lesniak (16:48.565)
But once I figure it out, what makes them tick, tick like a vehicle head, then it became easier. So you didn't go where I thought you were going to go with the tournament thing. I can, but... For me, a downside, a reason, a rationale that someone might not want to test is they're a strong competitor and they go to tournaments and they compete in...
the green belt level or brown belt level or whatever and they're ready to test for black belt but if they do now when they go to tournaments they're not going to win all the time and you know in the drumming world we call that sandbagging right there they're holding themselves back in the next from going to the next level so that they can continue to be better than everyone else. You find people do that on purpose? That's what I'm saying. That there is a lot I don't know how
Broad the occurrences, but there is a discussion in the Brazilian Jiu Jitsu world that is fairly loud on this subject that I have witnessed And here so first off here's my response If you care that much about getting your blue belt medal or blue belt trophy or whatever right your lower rank You should be embarrassed. You should be ashamed of yourself. That's that it flies in the face of
everything that martial arts stands for.
Jeremy Lesniak (18:24.087)
Could there be reasons I'm not thinking of for holding yourself back?
But in the way I'm feeling it now, you're welcome to challenge me if you have another way of thinking of it. Let me know. But here's...
Jeremy Lesniak (18:43.789)
said something. here's a reason that doesn't have to do with test anxiety that I think is quite legitimate. And I think back to when I was a kid, I loved reading. I read all the time. I read on the bus. I read every book I could get my hands on. And when I got into high school and I was expected to take all these notes and memorize all these things and be tested on those books, my love for reading was distra-
And I went to college and it got worse. So I went from the kid who read every book, you would not have found me without a book prior to ninth grade, to someone who writes more books than he reads. That's interesting. That's not an avenue I would have thought of, but it does make sense. If I was going to train somewhere.
at this point. Let's say it was on occasion.
I don't care about rank. I don't care about testing. want to learn your material. Now that school is probably going to give me an easy way to do that because they probably just had me wear my black belt. That's fine. But if they didn't want me to do that, I would have no problem wearing a white belt and never testing because I just want the material.
And there is a personality type that does not want the pressure of standardization, evaluation, they simply want participation. Yep, Anything to add? Why find that?
Jeremy Lesniak (20:54.963)
Yeah, I think that's a I think that could be a whole episode
Jeremy Lesniak (21:02.679)
to pose that question here and the audience can.
do.
saw that comment with the reading. Yeah, no, I get that. get it. makes sense. So the next thing I'm thinking is for students that do have test anxiety or... Let me pause on that one. The other thing is, like you said, I just I don't care about rank. Like I just I want to I want to come in and I respect that and can relate very, very much. But if that's also the case, you...
should have no problem if the instructor does come to you and you know what, I would really like you to test. I really don't care. before. Yep. I really don't care. Okay. Well, you already have a black belt. We know you can test. think it's, I'm pretending I'm the instructor, like I think it looks a little inappropriate for you to wear a white belt. In our school, can you wear a green belt? Because that's where you are now. Like you didn't have to test, but here you go.
Right, and if you are of the feeling that you don't care about rank and you don't care that you test or not, if this instructor does come to you and say they want you to, I think you should be okay saying, all right, well, guess I will, I guess I will. If you really don't care, then that means you don't have a preference one way or the other, so you should be okay testing. Now, for the students that have test anxiety, I totally get that. And I have had students that...
Jeremy Lesniak (22:38.463)
have had that come up and I think that is a conversation between them and the instructor to talk about how to get over that. I do think there were a lot and I think all three of us would agree there are huge benefits to being able to get over and get over is a bad use of words to work through that anxiety. To accept the challenge. Absolutely.
And maybe that is your test is slightly different from other people's tests. Maybe it's not in a huge group with lots of people, but that can still be something that happens. If your rationale for not testing is strictly because you're afraid of the test itself, I think that's a discussion that you can have with your instructor. That's really interesting because you said problem and work through in many ancient languages.
Japanese
Jeremy Lesniak (23:41.687)
So to go through that, think you really hit the down.
Jeremy Lesniak (23:50.157)
Two more things I want to...
is that test anxiety, that conversation, if you have a young child or someone who is still new and you don't have a strong relationship, in a lot of schools that first test occurs, you know, three months in. You don't have a strong relationship and I'm not gonna guess how many students have bailed on training because of test anxiety, but it's not zero. Yeah, absolutely. And the other thing,
This is something I have witnessed and it drives me crazy. Instructors teaching to the test.
Jeremy Lesniak (24:32.845)
instructors teaching to the test that Sure your material that you are teaching Should be correlated To your curriculum and if you have a test, hopefully your curriculum lights up to your test however There's an object on road ahead
I have seen circumstances where an instructor might say, we have testing coming up in a few weeks, I want to get you ready. And there's just something about that that rubs me the wrong way. I don't even know if I can articulate it. think, I'm speculating about my own mind here. I think it has to do with if your instruction was lined up properly.
Jeremy Lesniak (25:25.997)
class should already get people there in the approximate timeline you would want them right. The three testing classes curriculum should already be lined up and if you have to deviate yeah then it suggests that you need to make an adjustment there which you know as a tangent we did that in my school we found that it was taking people longer on their forms than on their basics so we made a small adjustment to
and the amount of time we devote to forms versus basics. But what I think it is is, know, most of us have had the experience in our academic career where, I guess we'd go back to books quite often, instead of fully understanding Romeo and Juliet or Othello or something from Shakespeare by...
yourself in that play, reading the play in entirety, you go through a read, memorize, regurgitate, Cliff Notes sort of methodology which on the test suggests you understand the material. But can you apply it? If you memorize a particular self-defense sequence, does that necessarily mean that you can apply it in a real-world confrontation?
So I think that's where my objection comes in. I get it. But I want to put a big pause on that because that is that's totally separate. That's a totally new episode. You're right. I'm to make a note for because we're going to do an episode about that for sure. But getting back to should testing be mandatory? Should a student be allowed to say they're not ready to test? And I think for me, it comes down to.
a discussion between the student and the instructor as to the why and what their rationale is for not it back to why. Yeah, yeah. It always comes back to why. You know, I could see situations where allowing a student to not test would be fine, but I don't know that I would be comfortable with a student saying no to a test multiple times in a row. Like if they've been, you know, if they were eligible for testing.
Jeremy Lesniak (27:52.119)
this time and they say no. Okay, well next time around maybe you'll feel ready and then they're not the next time. If that happened multiple times I think it would be...
Jeremy Lesniak (28:02.974)
Fuck you.
Jeremy Lesniak (28:09.729)
I don't have an age in my head.
Jeremy Lesniak (28:21.069)
What about you Jeremy? Closing thoughts?
Jeremy Lesniak (28:32.717)
perfect answer right and this is one of those that I would simply hope that those of you out there who have the responsibility for making this determination in your school at least consider why right if you have testing and you encourage testing push testing simply because that's how you were raised break it back down what would it look like for you in your school
What changes would that require? And run through that mental exercise because you'll probably find some things you say, you know, I bet we could do this better or that better. And I think that private personal discussion is 100 % right.
I think you guys both covered it well. So I think I would add
Jeremy Lesniak (29:29.931)
to the Y again.
this roadblock, what can I do to help you get over that roadblock? How can I hold your hand? Not hold your hand, but how can I assist you in getting over this together? Because many of those times, roadblocks are something I've experienced myself, one way or another. that's really it. All right, well, there you go.
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