Episode 938- Matt Abrahams
In today's episode Jeremy sits down and chats with Stanford School of Business professor Matt Abrahams about martial arts and different teaching and communication styles.Matt Abrahams - Episode 938
SUMMARY
In this conversation, Jeremy and Matt discuss the importance of communication in martial arts and in life. They explore how communication is a skill that can be improved and how it is essential for effective leadership. They also discuss the role of empathy in communication and how it helps in understanding others' perspectives. Matt shares his journey in martial arts, from starting at a young age to studying different styles and finding fulfillment in the practice. They highlight the connection between martial arts and communication as both being forms of language and expression. In this conversation, Jeremy and Matt discuss the intersection of martial arts and communication. They explore how teaching martial arts can improve communication skills, the importance of repetition, reflection, and feedback in both teaching and martial arts training, and the impact of martial arts on communication styles. They also touch on the role of discipline, the value of making mistakes, and the commonalities among successful martial artists and leaders. Matt shares his future plans for continuing to help people improve their communication skills and his dedication to martial arts training.
TAKEAWAYS
* Communication is a skill that can be improved and is essential for effective leadership.
* Empathy plays a crucial role in communication, helping to understand others' perspectives.
* Martial arts and communication are both forms of language and expression.
* Studying different martial arts styles can enhance one's understanding and skills.
* Teaching martial arts can be a fulfilling experience and helps in personal growth. Teaching martial arts can improve communication skills by enhancing repetition, reflection, and feedback.
* Discipline and the ability to learn from mistakes are key traits in both martial arts and effective leadership.
* Martial arts training can have a positive impact on communication styles, emphasizing the importance of presence, listening, and the effective use of space.
* The goal of martial arts is not just physical mastery, but personal growth, self-improvement, and inspiring others.
* The intersection of martial arts and communication offers valuable lessons for personal and professional development.
CHAPTERS
00:00 Introduction and Overview
02:32 The Importance of Communication in Martial Arts and Life
06:39 The Role of Empathy in Effective Communication
14:20 Exploring Different Martial Arts Styles
19:10 Teaching Martial Arts as a Fulfilling Experience
34:36 The Connection Between Martial Arts and Communication
35:33 The Importance of Repetition, Reflection, and Feedback
37:25 Discipline and Learning from Mistakes in Martial Arts and Leadership
38:49 The Impact of Martial Arts on Communication Styles
46:37 The Goal of Martial Arts: Personal Growth and Inspiring Others
48:56 Lessons from the Intersection of Martial Arts and CommunicationShow Notes
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Show Transcript
Jeremy (00:00.927)
Hey, what's going on everybody? Welcome you're tuned in to whistle kick martial arts radio and on today's episode I have Matt Abraham's we're gonna talk about communication bring a talk about martial arts and Honestly, the majority of what we're gonna talk about I don't even know yet because it hasn't happened because this is a live intro I like doing these a lot more than the intros later because this way I can't spoil anything now if you're new to the show
I want you to check out whistlekick .com. I want you to see all the things that we do for you, the martial artists of the world, as we connect, educate, and entertain you all throughout the world in our effort to get everybody in the world to train for six months. If you want to go deeper on this or any other episode we've done, it's whistlekickmarshallartoradio .com. That's where you'll find the links to everything we talk about, the transcript, excuse me, and all of that great stuff. But without further ado, Matt, thanks for joining me here today.
Matt Abrahams (00:53.98)
I am super excited to be with you and I look forward to our conversation.
Jeremy (00:57.471)
Yeah, yeah, me too, me too. I apologize if we're getting some...
Some of us would call it the sound of freedom the f -35s fly right over my house and And I don't know if you can hear it, but they are They're loud. They're loud planes
Matt Abrahams (01:16.604)
I don't hear it, but I'm glad they're doing what they're doing.
Jeremy (01:18.239)
Excellent, excellent. Well, I think that that is what they do. I think they're just here to remind all of us that they're very loud sometimes. But I mean, we could... And sometimes martial arts is like that, isn't it? Sometimes you make a big fuss to prevent having to actually make a fuss, I guess. Yeah.
Matt Abrahams (01:27.932)
I have colleagues like that, so I understand.
Matt Abrahams (01:34.524)
Yeah, yeah, sometimes.
Matt Abrahams (01:40.572)
Exactly.
Jeremy (01:44.351)
Where should we start? We've got a few places that we could start. Do you have a preference?
Matt Abrahams (01:51.292)
I'm happy to start anywhere. We can talk about, you know, in my life how what I do professionally in terms of coaching communication links to martial arts, or we can talk about my martial arts journey and how I got into it.
Jeremy (01:53.823)
Okay.
Jeremy (02:02.879)
Yeah, you know, maybe we let's let's start with the communications part because I think that's going to give us context for who you are and then we'll probably go back and fill in with martial arts and how that happened. So communication, obviously, I have this saying in business because I've been a business person my entire adult life and I've told people with with rare exception. All problems come down to communication problems.
Once in a while, you get someone who's a complete jerk. I don't usually use that word, but you know, here on the show, I'm going to use a more mild word like jerk. But almost every problem I've ever run into has been a communication problem where I, you know, I said it one way, they heard it a different way or vice versa. And once I started to understand that it really changed the way I did everything.
Matt Abrahams (02:32.572)
I
Matt Abrahams (02:59.356)
I 100 % agree. Communication is at the root of many of our challenges. It's also at the root of many of our biggest successes. For the work I do, I teach at Stanford's Graduate School of Business. I do consulting. I often say that communication is operationalized leadership. It's critical for the way that we interact with each other, with our superiors, with our subordinates. And it's just crucial. And yet, many people don't take time to reflect on their communication or to actually work on it.
We just assume this is the way it's done. That's the way we've always done it. And yet by spending time, really good things can happen.
Jeremy (03:37.855)
Communication is a skill set like anything else like like punching or kicking even if you're not naturally good at it you can improve at it and if you Understand the value in it It is definitely worth the investment
Matt Abrahams (03:48.668)
Absolutely. So many parallels with the martial arts. It takes a lot of practice. I think the best martial artists are those who listen well and the best who communicate are those who listen well. Listening looks a little differently when you're out on the mat than when you're in a conference room, but the skills are the same. Understanding your needs of your opponent in the moment, very similar to understanding the needs of your audience when running meetings and presenting.
Lots of corollaries there, but it is a skill. It's a skill you have to work on. And just like the martial arts, it's a skill that we can continue to hone and develop. There is no end point. There's always some new lesson to learn.
Jeremy (04:29.867)
One of the things we talk about in the MADC program that we operate, Marshall Arts Teacher Training and Certification, we talk about how important it is for the person in the front of the room or running the drill or whatever to convey information succinctly. And anybody out there, a lot of people have been through that program and they know, actually, do I want to give this away? I'm not going to give it away because we'll have people that will do it later and I don't want to ruin it for them.
but we have people participate in something and instruct a very common physical event in people's lives. And we tell one person's the instructor and one person is the student. And we tell the student, you can only do exactly what the instructor tells you to do. And it just leads to complete chaos and it's hysterical because people take communication for granted.
They assume that what's in their head, the picture they've painted in their head is what is visualized when they give a few words to someone, even if they don't have the context. And of course, the goal there is to get instructors to recognize that a first day white belt doesn't know what you mean.
and how important that is. So how, you know, go ahead, go ahead.
Matt Abrahams (05:53.372)
No, you're absolutely right. And there are similar activities that I do in my class and have seen others who teach the same thing to make the same point, to make exactly the same point. Clarity, concision, we all suffer from the curse of knowledge when it comes to our communication and in many cases the curse of passion. We know too much and we care too much about it. And the only antidote to the curse of knowledge and curse of passion is empathy and curiosity.
Jeremy (06:10.975)
Hmm.
Matt Abrahams (06:22.044)
You have to be curious about the other person's perspective and empathetic enough to try to address the world from their point of view. And that's when you become a better teacher, a better martial artist, a better person, when you are curious and empathetic. And communication is the tool that helps us do that.
Jeremy (06:39.807)
The curiosity part makes a lot of sense. I'm sure people are with you on that, but the empathy part might not be as obvious. Can you speak more to that?
Matt Abrahams (06:49.884)
So part of what we have to do is get out of our own heads and we have to think about the other person's perspective and how they approach things and why they might do something like that. You know, one of the big tenants in what I teach and when I practice martial arts is, you know, the idea is not to actually have combat, it's not to actually have a fight. And in those real world situations where things get hot and tense,
Jeremy (06:54.463)
Yeah.
Matt Abrahams (07:18.3)
One of the things that can diffuse it is listening, understanding the other person's perspective, calming things down. So empathy is very critical. You have to think how is, we all come to our life with different perspectives, from different experiences, and we have to think about somebody else in this circumstance, how are they seeing it? That's all what empathy is. Empathy is really being able to connect.
to somebody else's experience. There are people in my field, the field of communication, who argue that we learned to communicate simply to demonstrate empathy, to turbocharge our empathy. What has allowed humans to grow and prosper is the ability to have empathy and to connect. And communication is a tool that allows that.
Jeremy (07:56.382)
Really? Okay.
Jeremy (08:07.487)
I guess I can see that. Hard to convey safety without empathy. Hard to convey, you know, I'm not trying to take your food, I'm not trying to take your child, I'm not trying to throw you off that cliff unless there's some empathetic element. Okay, all right. How did you get into this field?
Matt Abrahams (08:12.124)
Yeah. Yes.
Matt Abrahams (08:25.116)
Yeah.
Matt Abrahams (08:29.628)
the field of communication, mostly. Yeah.
Jeremy (08:31.295)
Yeah, because let's acknowledge it. Communication at the two and four year degree level is almost a cliche, right? It doesn't carry a lot of respect, unfortunately, which I think is insane. But you're teaching it at a graduate level, which means I'm assuming you're a PhD. That's a whole different ball of wax.
Matt Abrahams (08:53.916)
So actually I don't have my PhD. I have several I have multiple master's degrees There's a story that there's a whole story behind that but I came to communicate Yeah It doesn't quite work that way but Yeah, so in terms of time served it does but in terms of the way the world views it. It's not necessarily the same thing So I am the the son I am my brother and I are the sons of a teacher and a lawyer
Jeremy (08:59.103)
Okay, we can add those up.
We can stack them close enough.
Matt Abrahams (09:23.132)
And in my household growing up, communication was really at the forefront. And I've got lots of stories I can share specifically. I'll share one in a moment. But my mother was very good at explaining things, at using language to engage. She taught elementary school, fourth graders, really hard to engage. And then my father was a lawyer. And everything had to be structured. Words really mattered. They have meaning in a very specific way.
Jeremy (09:23.231)
Mm.
Matt Abrahams (09:52.252)
And so I saw these two worlds in terms of how people communicated and both were valid, both are valid. And I was able to just soak all of that up. And I take that same approach to the martial arts. I've studied multiple arts and just really soak up from just the different ways of doing it, even though punching and kicking, blocking and all of that. Lots of different ways to do it, but still foundational principles.
So it was something that always fascinated me. I'll tell a quick story. My mother got frustrated at my brother and me because we had lots of stuff, our toys and everything. And she said, we are having a garage sale. Well, I grew up in a community where there were lots of garage sales on weekends. And my mother said, we need to stand out so people will come to ours. And so she instructed my brother and me, and we were about seven, I was about seven or eight at the time, to misspell the word.
garage and if you insert a B in the middle of the word garage you get garbage so well everybody in our neighborhood was having garage sales we were having a garbage sale and it turns out we sold more stuff than anybody else that weekend my mother believes it's because our sign was misspelled and that drew attention I think people thought we were stupid and would get better deals but the bottom line is I learned at a very young age that words matter communication matters I had some
Experiences in high school where I was asked so with the last name Abraham's I always went first I always knew where I sat and the teacher always called on me and I would get quite nervous speaking In those circumstances and so when I went to college I came across a psychology class. It was taught by somebody who's actually quite famous his name's Phil Zimbardo He did this the Stanford prison study, which many people have heard of For good or for bad we learned a lot from it. It wasn't the best way to treat subjects
Jeremy (11:36.751)
yeah.
Matt Abrahams (11:42.3)
But what people don't know is part of what motivated him to study prisons is he was very interested in shyness. Because if you think about it in his way of conceptualizing it, shyness is like an internal prison. And so I was very interested in anxiety around speaking and how do we actually feel more comfortable and confident. And so I began to study it academically with somebody who had a lot of knowledge and that really just lit my fire, went on to grad school, did more research, not just in anxiety around speaking, but other things.
So that's sort of my origin story, but it really came from just growing up in a family where communication was important and was approached in different ways. And that really just opened my mind to it.
Jeremy (12:21.01)
Yeah. What I'm hearing that's really interesting to me is the contrast of your parents and the styles of communication that they would have had during their day. And the fact that they, I mean, you didn't say if you would term the marriage successful, but I didn't hear you say it wasn't. So I'm going to guess that it was. And in my mind, that meant that they were extremely skilled in communication in that
Matt Abrahams (12:28.156)
Hmm.
Matt Abrahams (12:38.364)
no.
Jeremy (12:49.567)
they could adjust the style of communication. Because so many people, if they're a lawyer in their day job, they go to class and they're a lawyer, and they go home to their family and they're a lawyer, and they talk to their friends and they're a lawyer, and that doesn't work. You could say the same thing about an elementary school teacher. That unless you can adjust the style of communication for your audience and for the context, you don't reach people as well. And so you got that.
And to me, that sounds like it's even more valuable.
Matt Abrahams (13:21.82)
Absolutely. So my parents' marriage was very strong. They were married over 60 plus years. My father recently passed. So thank you. Yeah, yeah. So I mean, just long, good marriage. And so yes, and so part of what they demonstrated for me and taught me and something I try to do in the work I do is you have to adjust and adapt. There is no one right way. There are lots of ways.
Jeremy (13:30.103)
I'm so sorry, but 60 years is incredible.
Matt Abrahams (13:50.332)
And it's really about adjusting and adapting. And again, obviously a corollary to the martial arts there too. But yeah, so being able to appreciate others' perspectives, being able to switch gears, and in the academic world we call it code switching. How do I have to speak in one circumstance versus the other? I saw that play out in my daily life.
Jeremy (14:10.943)
All right, so let's rewind wherever martial arts starts to enter your origin story and give us some about that.
Matt Abrahams (14:20.444)
So when I was in junior high school, about 13, I was very nervous. I was anxious about the transition into junior high. I went to a school that was very safe. But there was some intimidation, especially among the boys. And my mother saw this in particular. She was very sensitive as somebody who worked in schools. And I had a cousin. My cousin, who's about 10 years my senior, was a martial artist. And I had seen him train. I'd been to some of his formal tests.
In his style, they did tests in front of people and you could watch it was a Japanese style. and I was super impressed. I always looked up to this cousin. He taught me many things still does. and I mean, one lesson he taught me, he, he was babysitting my brother and me and he took us to McDonald's for food and he ordered two hamburgers and it just blew my mind. It's like, you can get two. What do you mean? I always got hamburger fries drink. I didn't know you could get to him. So it was one of the, so he's opened my eyes to many things dating back to, to my.
Childhood eating habits, but I was always enamored with what I saw him do. I always looked up to him He he had some weapons training in his his martial arts and you can imagine to a young kid seeing somebody using weapons was really impressive and So my mother asked him to help to said hey Matt could use a little confidence building Can you come help us check out some stuff and where I grew up and when I grew up and you know This is the early 80s. There weren't a lot of martial arts studios around
Jeremy (15:35.711)
Certainly.
Matt Abrahams (15:48.796)
There were just a few and my cousin helped check things out and he had a really strong feeling towards the studio that I ended up studying with and still am with today, 40 years later, with some breaks in between. But that was the origin. It was just through my cousin and my mother's perception that I needed just a little self -confidence boost through self -defense.
Jeremy (16:12.607)
Okay, and did you get that? Did you have that confident? Okay, how quickly? Did that resonate quickly?
Matt Abrahams (16:14.556)
Absolutely, absolutely, absolutely. You know, it came, it came within the first couple of years. You know, 13, 14 is an awkward stage for most people. So as going through that, it gave me a level of confidence very, very early on. About four years, four or five years into my training, I started teaching, even though I hadn't received my first black belt yet in the studio, I initially trained in
senior students would teach younger students. And so that's where I got the teaching bug. You know, people, I've been teaching for decades, not just martial arts, but in general teaching. And people say, well, you know, when did you start teaching? My first teaching took place in the dojo and I learned a lot. I mean, not only did I teach younger kids, but I also taught adults. And that was really formative for me here as a teenager teaching adults really taught me a lot about myself.
about how to teach, about how to balance power and experience it. So it was a great experience.
Jeremy (17:17.823)
And, you know, one of the things I think unfortunately a lot of academic teachers
Jeremy (17:29.887)
they miss the part where most of their students have to be there or at least perceive that they have to be there. And so they miss a lot of opportunities. Whereas when you're teaching martial arts, nobody's gotta be there. There's no state mandate that says you've gotta be there. Or people aren't spending 30, 50, these days $80 ,000 a year for a few classes.
and they feel, okay, I really need to be here and there's a grade that moves me on and everything, right? Martial arts, if we don't make it enjoyable, people don't show up. And so I'm gonna guess you picked up some of that as well.
Matt Abrahams (18:11.996)
Yeah, you know, I wouldn't when I do my teaching and when I go through my experience, enjoyment. I don't know that I focus on enjoyment, to be quite honest. I focus on fulfillment. I focus on feeling a sense of purpose and growth. And when I teach the martial arts and when I teach communication and the other things I do, that's really where I focus. And you've actually helped me realize that I've learned that from the teaching I did in the martial arts. It's I want people to
to appreciate the experience, but I don't need them to have fun. I need them to feel a sense of purpose and growth and understanding. And from that, I think you get a sense of satisfaction. But when I teach the martial arts, and I'm happy to learn from others who do it, I'm not striving to make it a fun experience. It's great if it is, but it's really about purpose, fulfillment in that way. I'm curious to get your thoughts.
Jeremy (19:10.527)
What?
Matt Abrahams (19:11.292)
Can you appreciate what I'm saying? I guess is my question. Yeah.
Jeremy (19:12.927)
Absolutely. I suspect that we're that I'm using the word the word fun in a very broad heavy -handed way, right? What I'm hearing it from you is a more nuanced version of fun, right? There has to be some That and that's okay. I mean communication right is a perfect illustration that words matter that I find that there are plenty of martial arts schools out there that Will the instructors will hide behind their
Matt Abrahams (19:18.844)
Right. Yeah. Yeah.
Matt Abrahams (19:25.244)
Yeah. Sorry if I took it too literally. I took it too literally. Sorry.
Matt Abrahams (19:32.668)
Yeah. Yeah.
Jeremy (19:42.879)
their poor instructor abilities, their poor communication and say, you know, I don't care if they enjoy it. I don't care if they have fun. I don't care if they wanna be here. If you wanna learn, and this is where they will often throw in something, the real thing or the right way, this is how it has to be done. When you look at whether it's educational theory or the way children learn, however you wrap your head around it,
Matt Abrahams (19:44.764)
Yeah.
Jeremy (20:12.191)
Unless there's some broad version fun threaded through, it becomes really difficult to adequately convey.
Matt Abrahams (20:15.74)
Yes.
Matt Abrahams (20:22.876)
Absolutely, and I do think when you're teaching young kids fun is really important in that You do build in games and activities, but but yes there there are Teaching is an art teaching is an art. I believe they and I make a distinction between teachers who who just go through material and educators who are truly passionate about Learning and helping others learn and in true martial arts educators are very special just like to
educators in an academic setting are very special and it is a skill and it's a skill that you can learn and you can develop. And I do think it's important. I think we lose a lot of people who would benefit from the martial arts because of poor instruction.
Jeremy (21:05.919)
There are a lot of people out there who unfortunately, and I think we're the only industry that really does this, that say, okay, you've done this for a while. You know how to do it yourself. Now I'm going to turn you loose to show other people how to do it in a professional context, right? In most martial arts organizations, and this is changing, and it actually seems to be changing pretty rapidly, which excites me.
It was not that long ago that your teaching credentials, so to speak, and for the folks listening, not watching, I'm using air quotes, was simply your rank. And, you know, it might be first degree black belt, second degree black belt, whatever the equivalent might be, if it's a system that ranks differently. And that was it. And people would go off and they would figure things out the hard way. And I was absolutely in that group.
And I was a better teacher than most with the level of experience that I had because I had some instructors who taught me how to instruct a little bit. But most people, they get out there and they're struggling. And imagine what an elementary school or a university would look like if we did the same thing. Hey, you're really good at physics. You're going to teach physics. Wait, what?
Matt Abrahams (22:22.14)
yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, I think it's really important to scaffold the teaching of skills like the martial arts just to really help people. Just, you know, I believe that the and you've heard this before that we learn more through teaching than we do through anything else. So I think there's a role for teaching and many, you know, in all the martial arts I've studied, there's been times where you partner up with people and we teach each other.
Jeremy (22:44.447)
for sure.
Matt Abrahams (22:54.108)
And I think that's a really formative step of that. But to run a class where you are training people in the foundational principles, having some of those built in communication and teaching skills really makes a big difference.
Jeremy (23:10.559)
Yeah, the more time I spend teaching, the more I have stepped away from the term teacher. And for a long time I was using the word more leader. I'm in the front of the room. And I come from a Japanese tradition and I like the term sensei, because one who's gone before, I kind of dig that. But now I find myself, even if I'm not using the word, I see myself more as a facilitator. I'm facilitating the education of my students.
Matt Abrahams (23:17.5)
Mm -hmm.
Matt Abrahams (23:22.172)
Mm -hmm
Matt Abrahams (23:35.676)
Mm -hmm.
Jeremy (23:40.127)
You nodded and half smiled there. So I'm going to guess you have something to add on.
Matt Abrahams (23:42.812)
No, I think that's right. I mean, there's a saying, you know, it's, are you the sage on the sage or the sage on the stage or the guide on the side? And I think the best martial arts instructors are the guides on the side. They're the people who are facilitating, not just dictating what is said. And so I think your approach aligns nicely with my approach. And that's why you saw the smirk.
Jeremy (24:08.383)
So how'd you go from junior high, 13, learning, starting to teach martial arts to now, right? There's obviously, there's a college happens in there somewhere. Is that a stepping stone we should chat about?
Matt Abrahams (24:12.316)
Mm -hmm.
Matt Abrahams (24:22.735)
Yeah, yeah. Well, so, you know, it took me a while to get my first degree black belt. There were some pauses in there with going away to school, although I actually went to school very close to where I grew up. So I was able to continue to teach and to train. And just, you know,
Jeremy (24:32.319)
Mm -hmm.
Matt Abrahams (24:43.228)
Like anything, like any sport or activity you do, you find others who do it. So in college, I found others who are martial artists. In the university I went to, there were lots of different martial arts. And so I dabbled a little bit. And I had high school friends who didn't know I was the martial artist among us. The rest were into other sports. And I had one friend once who, you know, he said, you take karate, I do track.
implying he's just gonna run away if there was any confrontation. I thought that was funny. And yet when we came back for the first summer from college, several of my friends had started taking martial arts. And so I got interested in others and over some, started different, studying different arts through my friends because they had experience. But it was when I went to grad school where I really got interested in studying.
Jeremy (25:23.007)
Interesting.
Matt Abrahams (25:38.172)
some of the Chinese arts in particular. In undergrad, my minor was in East Asian philosophy, obviously driven by my interest in the martial arts. And reading some of the foundational texts of some of the martial arts, the I Ching and others, really got me interested. So I started studying some of the internal Chinese arts in grad school, which was really interesting. And I just keep finding...
Jeremy (25:57.119)
Mm -hmm.
Matt Abrahams (26:07.612)
I just kept finding new and more interesting, nuanced ways. And as I have progressed over the years, the training has become less martial and more spiritual. And I find that really helpful. I tell people that martial arts is my therapy. Issues I have in life tend to play out in the dojo where I actually can learn from them. And then similarly, issues I have in the studio.
Jeremy (26:27.807)
Hmm.
Matt Abrahams (26:33.02)
I can learn from in life when I come out. So for me, it's a very personal journey and that's helped motivate me as I've matured.
Jeremy (26:45.326)
Okay, now you you pointed out in grad school you Gained an interest in Chinese martial arts. So up to that point had it all been Japanese stuff you'd trained
Matt Abrahams (26:56.732)
So my highest rank in the rank I still study and teach today is American Kempo. And people have strong opinions about that. And I'm happy to take part in it. But for me, it's been a very helpful study in style. And I appreciate its balance and practicality. It has a science to it that I gravitate towards that I appreciate. But I've studied other Japanese styles. So as a younger kid, the very first martial art I ever studied was Judo.
In our community education classes during summers, my mom signed me up for a judo class So that was the first exposure I had and then there was a break before I studied through the story I told you about with my cousin But my good friend of mine who returned from from college had started jujitsu Kodon kan jujitsu. So again traditional Japanese jujitsu and I and I studied that for a while as well And then it was really in grad school that I got interested in Xingyi and Bagua
Jeremy (27:34.751)
Hmm.
Matt Abrahams (27:55.004)
just because they're so different and yet so complementary and studied that for a while as well. And then when I left grad school and started working my martial arts, I still did it but just took a little bit of a backseat. And then I found somebody who was local in the community who was able to teach xingyi more than bagua to me. And so I studied, I kept that while I was doing the khenpo. So I've always dabbled and now...
you know, Xingyi, Bagua, Tai Chi, the triumvirate. I am now studying some Tai Chi and have been and am finding great enjoyment and all along the way I've been doing Qigong and other things. So I have a very broad approach to my studying of martial arts.
Jeremy (28:37.183)
You are, you are, this is where a lot of people would use the word eclectic and I don't want to use that because it suggests that they are disconnected. But what I'm hearing is that you're connecting them. And that does not surprise me as someone who prioritizes communication, right? Because communication, language, to me, martial arts is physical expression of language to a certain degree. And anything you're doing in a non, if we're not actually engaged in combat,
Matt Abrahams (28:43.004)
You
No, I mean...
Yeah.
Matt Abrahams (29:01.244)
Mmm.
Jeremy (29:06.559)
we're having a conversation with our hands and feet.
Matt Abrahams (29:11.036)
And I love that because when I teach it and when I have found being having good teachers who've taught me, they teach it like a language, right? There's the components of the language, the words, the structure, and then there's the free flowing nature of it, you know, at least in the style, the Japanese more oriented styles with kata, with kumite.
With with sometimes self -defense techniques each of those teaches a different skill that has a corollary and communication And so it's I find that Refreshing that you see it the same way. It is a language, you know It when you are in training in in sparring or in conflict with somebody you are communicating and you do so with your body with your with As well as the words you use
Jeremy (29:50.047)
Yeah.
Jeremy (30:05.023)
Yeah, and one of the things I find really interesting is that if someone spends, I don't know what the minimum is, but let's say a few years training in a particular art, especially if they do so at a young age, almost every other art that they train in, you'll be able to see. If you know that first art, you can see its influence. You can see the accent in other things. You know, I grew up doing karate and
Matt Abrahams (30:15.996)
Mm -hmm.
Matt Abrahams (30:28.284)
you
Yeah.
Jeremy (30:33.087)
Fortunately, my taekwondo instructor also started in karate. So he didn't mind that my taekwondo forms looked like karate forms. And I've got my assistant instructor now. I met her through taekwondo. And so she's doing karate.
Matt Abrahams (30:36.956)
Yeah. Yeah.
Matt Abrahams (30:42.396)
That's.
Matt Abrahams (30:50.556)
Yeah, through that lens. Yeah. So you had a I'm glad you had a positive experience. I have to say that that the the Xing Yi instructors I've had have have definitely had some qualms with the the karate approach that I brought to things. And so but but it led to some interesting conversations. And for me, an appreciation of different ways of accomplishing the same goal.
Jeremy (30:51.199)
with a Taekwondo accent.
Matt Abrahams (31:16.732)
And so that I think is the richness of the martial arts and studying different arts. I know there are people who are very dedicated to their art and I respect that completely, but I think there is value in dabbling and trying other arts because those different approaches can teach you a lot. And actually I am a better, I am better at my kempo because I have studied the other arts, absolutely hands down. And even though that the studying of my kempo probably made me a worse student,
Jeremy (31:39.551)
Yes.
Matt Abrahams (31:46.428)
in those other arts, but it absolutely has been additive.
Jeremy (31:52.095)
But I would suggest that it might have made you a worse student only because the instructor didn't know how to leverage that understanding of movement. Because I have cross -trained in a variety of things, if I have a student come in, and actually about half of my karate school is people with experience in Korean martial arts, whether that's, you know, Tung Tzu Do or various flavors of Taekwondo. And I've got enough experience with those styles that I can say, okay,
Matt Abrahams (32:02.46)
That's yeah.
Matt Abrahams (32:13.148)
Mm -hmm.
Jeremy (32:23.031)
You think of doing it like this, but then that Right and that resonates for them because otherwise their body is going to default to the thing that I don't quite want them to do and so I'm not gonna get mad at them for not having a clean slate
Matt Abrahams (32:41.532)
Right, and I love, I mean, that's a great teaching technique, right? It's teaching through analogy, teaching through comparison. And I think that's really, it's important. And because of your experience in those other arts, you have that expanded vocabulary that can help people make those connections. And I think that's great. That's great.
Jeremy (32:59.679)
You gotta meet people where they're at. So you go on school, grad school, was it communications the whole time? Was that the trajectory? Okay. Okay. And were you always planning to be an academic? Or was there expectation of...
Matt Abrahams (33:01.468)
Mm -hmm. Right. Right.
Matt Abrahams (33:11.292)
Psychology undergrad communication grad school. Yeah.
Matt Abrahams (33:20.476)
No, so I so I left I left academia to pay off student loans and other things I worked in industry for about ten years And then when my wife and I started our family I didn't want to be doing all the traveling and all the crazy hours I was working and and I went back to my passion which was teaching I actually taught high school for two years I graduated to teach community college for a number of years and and now I'm at Stanford's Business School where I teach graduate students So I've I keep graduating
I don't know what's next, but I enjoy what I do and my students are amazing and it allows me to have the lifestyle that I appreciate. So yes, communication has been at the core of everything I've done and it's evolved over time.
Jeremy (34:07.231)
You even acknowledged this earlier that when we teach we become better and most of us You know, even if we don't have our own school or we haven't been training a long time We've had enough of of the kind of sharing and having to explain something to someone in class that you know it We can at least wrap our heads around saying Yeah, my my martial arts instruction no matter how like that is has helped me become a better martial artist but I bet most of us don't have
Matt Abrahams (34:11.516)
Mm -hmm.
Matt Abrahams (34:15.356)
Mm -hmm.
Jeremy (34:36.767)
the experience of being in an academic environment where you're teaching a subject that, yeah, there can be a physical element to it, but it is not on its surface something that one can see. I can watch my students move and get pretty close to whether or not they're doing it correctly, so to speak, short period of time and even at a distance.
Matt Abrahams (34:52.508)
Mm -hmm.
Jeremy (35:05.055)
your subject matter doesn't quite work that way. So how are you becoming better in your field by teaching your students this internal art, so to speak?
Matt Abrahams (35:17.116)
So I think the only way we get better at any teaching is three things. It's repetition, reflection, and feedback. So you gotta practice, you gotta do it. Nobody becomes a good teacher just by thinking about it, just like nobody becomes a good martial artist just by thinking about it. It's important to think about it, but that's not how you become expert. You have to do it. Yeah.
Jeremy (35:33.695)
And there are some folks out there. They're not in our audience, but there are some folks out there that might be very upset to hear that.
Matt Abrahams (35:39.836)
Well, it's an important part, but it is not all. So you have to actually do it, repetition. Then you have to reflect. I mean, there's that definition of insanity, doing the same thing over and over again, expecting different results. If you don't reflect, you don't get better. So in my teaching, at the end of every class, at the end of every week, I reflect. I take a few minutes, what worked, what didn't work. And then I set goals for myself. Same thing with my martial arts, what worked and what didn't work. I mean, your experience and everybody listening, their experience is probably very similar. And the martial arts, the
There'll be long periods of plateau and then there'll be some kind of breakthrough where things change and then another plateau in terms of the learning and the skills, especially when you get into some of the internal things we're doing to help ourselves get more powerful or more fluent, et cetera. And the same thing is true in teaching. So you have to reflect and it's that reflection that helps you move out of those plateaus into ascending to new levels. And then finally, you have to get feedback.
One of the I'll never forget when I forgot my first black belt. I felt like I accomplished this is it I've done it I've climbed that mountain and my current my instructor who I'd been with for many many years came to me and said Congratulations, you did very well now. Let's get started and that blew my mind It's like what do you mean? We're getting started but it's at that moment that I learned that that it's just the beginning right and with every subsequent rank
It's just the beginning. And the same thing is true in teaching and learning other skills. Each, you have to get feedback from others so that you can learn, so that you can develop, and have some good guidance along the way. So repetition, reflection, and feedback is how I try to work on my teaching and how I try to work on my martial arts.
Jeremy (37:25.266)
And are there things that you think you do differently from your colleagues because of your experience in martial arts? Either in the way, okay, yeah, speak to that. That interests me.
Matt Abrahams (37:33.948)
absolutely. No, absolutely. So in the martial arts, we learn to play with space. And I don't, you know, sometimes it's physical space, but also emotional space. And, and I will, I will do that in a way that, that I don't, you know, not everybody does in terms of teaching. So, you know, there's this notion, especially in the Chinese arts of taking someone's space, right. And, and there are times as a teacher where I will take space in the room and I'll take other people's space.
when it's time to teach, when it's time to finish an activity. And there are other times where I'll give space, where I'll allow other things to happen. So this notion of using and managing space, and again, I don't just mean physical space, although that's part of it, it's just control, if you will, giving control, taking control, and I think that's important. I've also learned to listen more, to be present, to pause.
to pay attention to what's being said, but also what's not being said. And those are all lessons that the martial arts have taught me. And my students will be the judge if it's a different approach that they learn from differently than others. But I absolutely feel that I do things that others might not do.
Jeremy (38:49.631)
It's really interesting. We could take the last probably 60 seconds and with just a few word changes That description could also be my my interview style Right, I leave a lot of space and I've done this on the show and you know, we always have new folks I'll do this right now, you know, you might finish some saying something and expect that I'm gonna chime right in but
Matt Abrahams (38:53.596)
Yeah. Yeah.
Matt Abrahams (38:59.836)
Yeah. Yeah.
Matt Abrahams (39:15.42)
Yeah, silence.
Jeremy (39:16.735)
Right? And there's the moment, right? I felt it a split second before you filled it. And once I realized that if the pause is too long, we'll cut it in post. It gave me so much freedom. And if you go back, if someone really wanted to see the, I don't know why anyone would want to see this, but if someone was really interested and wanted to see the progression of Jeremy Lesniak as interviewer on Martial Arts Radio, you could go probably every 75 to a hundred episodes.
Matt Abrahams (39:28.124)
Yeah.
Jeremy (39:45.535)
And you would see that I become more comfortable with that space and leaving the space. And once I became conscious of this, I started to notice that space was the differentiator in almost everything. And originally I had discovered that reading something about classical music, that if what we truly resonated with as human beings in music was perfection,
Matt Abrahams (39:51.292)
Mm -hmm.
Matt Abrahams (40:01.372)
Mm -hmm.
Jeremy (40:13.887)
we would only want to hear robots play music. But no one's going to Carnegie Hall to hear a robot because a great musician plays the space between the notes. And if you watch a top -notch martial arts form, a kata, you know, I would call them katas, practitioner, they will, they're doing the same movements, but it's the space between the movements. And a good orator.
Matt Abrahams (40:17.468)
Right.
Matt Abrahams (40:25.02)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Matt Abrahams (40:30.812)
Yeah. Yes.
Jeremy (40:44.063)
it's the space between the words, right? And so the older I get, the more I'm starting to look at space as the differentiator in everything, whether taking, giving.
Matt Abrahams (40:55.644)
I think that's really.
I'm sorry. I took space from you and I didn't mean to but I think it's really insightful. I really do I think I think space pausing Appreciating, you know in our communication. We don't do that. We we we feel a pause as a sign of weakness Somebody asks a question. I have to respond right away If if I need to collect my thoughts I have to be filling it with ums and ahs and not having that silence or pause Pausing is very powerful
Jeremy (41:01.695)
You did.
Matt Abrahams (41:27.26)
Those who are seen as powerful take pauses, take longer pauses, use space more. So you're absolutely right.
Jeremy (41:36.799)
And pausing, of course, you know, that can be a verbal pause doesn't have to be a full pause in communication. So much communication. I mean, maybe you're the best person to ask on the percentage people kick around these numbers of what percentage of communication is nonverbal, but at the very least, it's a significant amount. And so I might pause and look or gesticulate or, you know, express something with my eyes. Doesn't mean I'm not communicating.
Matt Abrahams (42:05.788)
That's right. Communication, I'm not a big fan of percentages. It is safe to say that nonverbal presence and how you use space and how you use your body and voice play a critical role in being effective in your communication. In some circumstances, it plays a really large role and others less of a significant role, but it's critical to focus on. And the martial arts train that presence.
there is a, you can tell somebody who's studied the martial arts and somebody who hasn't. Not only do they tend to be very humble, but they tend to be very present and you can feel that. And that's impressive.
Jeremy (42:44.511)
So of course you've got this skill set with communication and instructing communication. And it's fairly obvious how if you are instructing people in martial arts, how that's gonna play a role. But what about as a student?
Matt Abrahams (43:00.7)
So when I'm a student, how has.
Jeremy (43:02.143)
Yeah, yeah. How does that change things for you? Because we do live, we exist in this environment where sometimes we're expected to be blunt, shut up and just watch and try. And I would imagine that trying to balance all of those things, given that this is part of what you spend so much of your day doing, might become challenging.
Matt Abrahams (43:19.164)
Mm -hmm.
Matt Abrahams (43:31.1)
It can be. It can be. I have a lot of forward motion in my life. I am moving forward. I am moving fast. And I am constantly learning. Perhaps the most frequent lesson across all the martial arts I've trained in and with my instructor, who I've been with forever, is to be present. And I am wired to be ahead of the game.
And so that's hard for me and it is hard, but I have learned over all these years, sometimes very painfully in the dojo that being present oriented, being open, being open literally to new ideas, it can be very helpful. And so it can be challenging for me dispositionally, but being somebody who is paid to communicate, paid to share ideas, it can also be hard just to be quiet.
But I've also learned that there are many ways to do things. My way isn't always the right way. And that by being quiet and observing and as a parent, also realizing that some of the best lessons are learned through people doing and making their own mistakes rather than telling. So a whole lot of avenues are conspiring to get me to slow down, to be present and to listen more than I speak.
Jeremy (44:58.111)
What's the future bringing for you? You said forward momentum, so where are you headed?
Matt Abrahams (45:00.636)
Yeah, well, thank you for asking. Yeah, no, thank you for asking. So I'll share in my personal professional life and then I'll share in my martial arts life. So I am very committed to communication, to helping others communicate better. I released a book in September. So it's coming up on its year anniversary and I'm still very actively trying to use that book to help people. It's a book all about how to speak in the moment spontaneously. If you ever have any training in communication, it's usually around
Jeremy (45:08.383)
Please.
Matt Abrahams (45:29.82)
planned presenting like create the presentation or here's the agenda for the meeting. But most of our communication is like what you and I are doing, which is in the moment spontaneous. I, you know, I don't have it and it certainly doesn't seem like you have one either. So it's great. And that's where life happens, right? That's life happens in that spontaneity. and then I also have a podcast I host so I can appreciate and empathize with the work you do. And you, you put on a great podcast.
Jeremy (45:38.643)
you didn't script all this out?
Jeremy (45:45.215)
No, never.
Matt Abrahams (45:56.924)
It's called Think Fast Talk Smart, which is all about communication skills. So unlike yours, mine are very short. They're about 20 minute episodes. So I'm really committing and dedicating a lot of my time to that because it's another vehicle to help people learn. From my martial arts perspective, it's same old, same old. It's continue to do the work, continue to learn. I'm getting ready to test for my sixth degree in one style. Training in Tai Chi, as I said. Trying to find more time to do qigong.
I do it every day, but I'd like to do more. So it's really prioritizing that and that's where my future direction is headed.
Jeremy (46:37.691)
What's the name of that book?
Matt Abrahams (46:39.644)
My book is called, yeah, I'm very, I'm, I stay on brand. It's called Think Faster Talk Smarter. The podcast is Think Fast Talk Smart. And the book is Think Faster Talk Smarter. There will be no Think Fastest Talk Smartest. So we run the course on it.
Jeremy (46:46.303)
You
Jeremy (46:51.263)
Excellent.
Jeremy (46:57.663)
You could, I don't know, you could extend the brand with, with Ish. Think fast Ish. You could go the opposite direction. Talk smart Ish.
Matt Abrahams (47:01.18)
Yeah, you're right. You're right. See, you're right. You're right. You're now part of the PR team.
Jeremy (47:09.375)
Hey, great. Great. And where would people pick that up? Is it?
Matt Abrahams (47:16.284)
You can buy the book anywhere you get books in person or online and the podcast is everywhere. Anywhere anybody can find you, including YouTube, you can also find Think Fast Talk Smart.
Jeremy (47:19.295)
Okay.
Jeremy (47:28.479)
Excellent. I mean, since we're going through this stuff, social media or websites that we should make sure people have.
Matt Abrahams (47:32.508)
Yeah. So, MattAbrahams .com, great place to go to get resources. I have a whole bunch of free resources around communication skills. Many of them translate into martial arts skills, teaching skills. That's a great place to go. I'm a big user of LinkedIn. Anybody who wants to connect through LinkedIn, happy to do that.
Jeremy (47:56.49)
Well, it's a few more minutes. I don't feel like we should wrap yet because we open some good stuff. I just wanted to make by all means
Matt Abrahams (47:59.352)
Sure. Yeah, okay. No worries. So can I ask you a question or two? So, so, so I, you know, I'm gonna, now I'm gonna put on my podcast host. I am, I am fascinated by two things. One, your motivation to bring martial arts to a broad community. You have thousands of listeners, curious to know where that came from. And then,
How have you found it talking to people who are experts in lots of different martial arts fields? Have you found some threads or commonalities that, not in the actual kicking and punching, but in demeanor, in approach? So I guess what motivates you to do the work you do, which I think is fantastic, because what you do is you help people realize the martial arts isn't what we see on television and what we see in the movies. It's a true art.
And then I'm just curious what you've learned across all of these hundreds of people you've interviewed.
Jeremy (48:56.095)
Yeah. So the first question is easier to answer and it's just, it's working backwards from the goal. What's the goal? The goal is that I get everybody in the world to train for six months. Why? Because I think it would make their lives better. And I think by consequence, it would make the world better. And I just want to make the world better. I'm just, you know, I've said this before, I'm just trying to change the world. And I use the word just in that statement because I think that is all of our responsibility. We should just be trying to change the world. Notice I don't say by how much, right? Just trying to change the world.
Matt Abrahams (48:59.164)
Yeah.
Matt Abrahams (49:04.636)
Mm -hmm.
Matt Abrahams (49:09.756)
Yes.
Matt Abrahams (49:18.94)
Yes.
Jeremy (49:25.919)
And so, okay, got to get everybody to train. How do I get everybody to train? Well, a couple of things have to happen. One, martial artists have to stick around. And so the majority of what we do is providing resources, entertainment, et cetera. It's the connect, educate, entertain for people who are already in or were in and want to get back in to traditional martial arts. And...
Matt Abrahams (49:36.412)
Mm -hmm.
Matt Abrahams (49:44.668)
Mm -hmm.
Jeremy (49:53.375)
we do a little bit and as we've grown, we are finding more and more opportunities to get people who are not currently training to get them into training, right? And so it's...
I just want the world to be better. And I think that when I look at all the different ways I could make a substantial impact that will last long beyond my death, it is through martial arts. I don't care about personal recognition. I care about the martial arts recognition. I care about that more people, I want more people to train tomorrow than train today. And that's the why there.
Matt Abrahams (50:18.076)
Mm -hmm.
Matt Abrahams (50:26.684)
Mm -hmm.
Matt Abrahams (50:31.132)
What a lovely goal. What a lovely, it's a gift to give. And what we know from research in motivation and persuasion is having a clear target, like six months, is really powerful. It's not just start the martial arts, because that can feel intimidating, but six months of it. And you're right, a lot of people get addicted and find extra value in it. So that's great. Thank you for sharing that.
Jeremy (50:55.871)
And of course, of course, and the reason it's six months is that I think six months is long enough that even if someone doesn't continue, they will be cognizant of the benefits that they derived. I've had and maybe you've had this and I suspect most of the audience has had this. People will come up to you, have a conversation. They find out that you've done that you do martial arts. Maybe you teach martial arts or you've been training for a while. And quite often they will say something like, I want my kid to do karate, taekwondo, whatever.
Matt Abrahams (51:05.916)
Mm -hmm.
Jeremy (51:26.431)
because I did that when I was a kid for six months, a year, two years, and I know it helped me. I've never heard anyone say that about basketball or soccer or going to archery camp or any of these other things. Now, are there other things that benefit children? Of course, but I don't believe there's anything that is more universally perceived as being beneficial as traditional martial arts training. So that's the push there.
Matt Abrahams (51:28.732)
Right.
Matt Abrahams (51:38.172)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Matt Abrahams (51:53.756)
I 100 % agree and the corollary and the add -on skills of focus, respect, attention are fantastic. So 100 % agree.
Jeremy (52:06.239)
And as to what folks have in common, you know, we, there's a little bit of selection bias with who comes on the show because we don't, we don't placate ego, right? So you'll, and there is a decent amount of ego. And if you, again, if you go back, if you do, you know, if somebody wants to do a research paper on, you know, the arc of Jeremy as interviewer, you'll see,
Matt Abrahams (52:18.268)
Mm -hmm. Yeah, and there is a fair amount of ego in the martial arts.
Jeremy (52:32.607)
for the first few hundred episodes, I was absolutely obsessed with the subject of ego in the martial arts. And why did it exist? Why was it so prevalent? Why were there so many people around me with phenomenal martial arts skill that were jerks? What happened? And I was able to kind of solve that and figure out why that was. And to be blunt, it's because instructors didn't enforce the character.
Matt Abrahams (52:38.3)
Mmm.
Jeremy (53:02.303)
requirements for rank progression. It's really what it boils down to there. But in terms of what people have in common when we look at the folks who come on on the show, it's that they took martial arts out into the world.
whether they took it out to run a school, but even if they have a school, they're taking it out elsewhere. If you look at the episodes that we have, I don't care whether it's an actor or an author or an academic teacher or a parent, martial arts changed who they were, gave them an additional tool set, and they're aware of that tool set.
And so that gave them some sustenance on their why they keep training and they're bettering the world through these avenues that people would never imagine. When I started the show, there was, and I shared this, if you wanna be a professional martial artist, that means that you are a fight choreographer or you're a stunt performer.
or maybe you bridge one of those into acting or you have a school. That was it. Those were the four jobs that anybody talked about. But my perspective on that has changed so dramatically because martial arts is kind of like a healthy version of MSG, right? It doesn't matter what you sprinkle it on, it makes it better. I just made that up. I don't know that I love it. Yeah.
Matt Abrahams (54:26.396)
Right.
Matt Abrahams (54:43.868)
I was gonna say, I love analogies. I've never heard that one.
Jeremy (54:47.803)
It's, you know, martial arts is healthy MSG, right? I also love analogies. And I think that that's one of the things that we do on this show really well is that we show people your time invested in martial arts.
doesn't have to be seen as a hobby. One day we'll have the resources that we can conduct these surveys, but when I take a look at pro athletes and when I take a look at C -level executives, it seems anecdotally that a lot of them had, maybe they're not actively training, but they had a lot of martial arts training at some point. And I believe that the numbers will prove out.
Matt Abrahams (55:31.58)
Hmm.
Jeremy (55:35.007)
that they show a higher level of participation of a certain time period than the non -professional athletes, than the non -C -suite executives.
Matt Abrahams (55:47.164)
I think that's true. I do a fair amount of coaching of individuals, executives, et cetera. And if not martial arts, at least some very committed, dedicated physical activity. There is something about being physical, about having to train that differentiates effective senior leaders and those who aren't. Yeah.
Jeremy (55:47.583)
it
Jeremy (55:51.935)
Mm.
Jeremy (56:07.871)
It's discipline, right? The older I get, the more I think discipline is the secret. And the secret to what? The secret to everything, right? Because we exist in this world where media, social media have convinced us that everyone who is successful is successful because of some innate talent that they discovered on day one and they were the world's best on day three. And that's just not how it is. Everything is the result of tremendous discipline and just
not stopping. And so here we are, your episode 9 whatever.
Matt Abrahams (56:42.176)
Yeah.
Jeremy (56:43.999)
I wasn't good at the beginning. The show's okay now. We kept putting in the reps. Thank you.
Matt Abrahams (56:47.9)
I think the show is very good. And I appreciate you sharing the insights that you've gained from your guests. It brings a smile to my face. Because as a podcast host myself, I mean, I feel selfish in a way because I get to learn all of this stuff. And I try to share it, but it's just fantastic. And I think to go back to your point about discipline, I think discipline is so important. Part of discipline that I think really separates
good leaders and good martial artists actually is the understanding that making mistakes, failure if you will, is a critical part of growth and that we learn through our mistakes. I mean, when you listen to one of my lessons with the instructor I've been with forever, somebody from the outside listening who's not a martial artist would be, what the hell are you guys talking about? He'll say things like, you did it wrong correctly or you...
You did it right, but wrong, right? So, you know, there's, there's the move was right, but the intentionality, the approach was wrong. And, and that there's an appreciation of learning through mistake, learning through trying different ways. And that that's a key part of discipline. And I think those who study any kind of physical activity, be it running, swimming, soccer, basketball, whatever, anybody who trains in something and has a good coach and a good experience builds that discipline.
and builds that way of looking at learning.
Jeremy (58:18.943)
Hmm. I've become obsessed over the last couple of years and in part because we're running these teacher trainings, but also before that with how people learn hyper obsessed because I see my job as a martial arts instructor and honestly, this was the premise under which I started my school. I said, I think I can get people moving along two to four times faster. If I rework how we train and learn martial arts.
through our modern understanding of education. And one of the things I'll talk about when I give a seminar is we learn by making mistakes, but a lot of times once we get out of youth, it's not celebrated, the effort is not celebrated. And so I'll give the example, I've never heard anyone yell at a baby and tell them that they were dumb for not being able to stand up or walk or run.
Matt Abrahams (59:13.66)
Yes.
Jeremy (59:14.879)
The effort is celebrated and so often, and I think I've shared this, I'll share it again, because we always have new folks. If you look around at most martial arts environments, you'll see a fairly steady attrition rate that has a big bubble at just before or just after black belt. If you kind of think of it in groupings, yeah.
Matt Abrahams (59:38.204)
Mm -hmm. Right.
Jeremy (59:44.095)
fewer people earn a yellow belt or whatever that first belt is than are there for a white belt. But we've got a big drop and why? Because as you get close to that black belt rank or whatever the equivalent is.
Matt Abrahams (59:48.604)
Right.
Jeremy (59:57.631)
You've got to put in the grit. You've got to have the discipline. And so when you get people, and I see this quite often when someone joins at like nine, 10 years old and their, their proprioceptive skills, their ability to see where their body is for that child works really well. And so their praise is not around effort. Their praise is around results. And then they start getting close to black belt and now they don't have the discipline and they don't have the, the reps in on.
If I try, I will get this and they quit. And it makes me really sad. And so we've taken a lot of that stuff and go ahead.
Matt Abrahams (01:00:31.9)
Yeah, I see that pattern. Yeah, no, I see that pattern all the time too.
Jeremy (01:00:39.199)
And it's a shame because those are the, if you could take that innate ability, whether it's martial arts or academic or anything and stack discipline on top of that.
Right? And I just think that's amazing. We know who those people are, the people that are at the top of their fields in whatever it is, right? What's the thing that people will talk about most if they understand professional basketball and they understand Kobe Bryant? It's his work ethic.
Matt Abrahams (01:01:15.58)
Yeah, absolutely.
Jeremy (01:01:17.023)
incredibly talented, but he had a crazy work ethic and you can find that in all industries.
Matt Abrahams (01:01:25.596)
Absolutely. Absolutely.
Jeremy (01:01:29.151)
Well, that was fun. I didn't think we were going to go there, but that was cool.
Matt Abrahams (01:01:31.323)
No, but that's the beauty of it. That's the beauty of it. And that's, yeah, absolutely. And that's why I like martial arts. You do the same moves over and over again, but each time is a different experience.
Jeremy (01:01:34.719)
Yeah, I love, that's why I love podcasting.
Jeremy (01:01:46.719)
And every time you get a class together, doesn't matter what's on the docket for that day, it's a different class. And even if you could find a way to teach the exact same class, the experience the students are going to have are going to be a little different because they're showing up different.
Matt Abrahams (01:02:03.356)
100%, absolutely.
Jeremy (01:02:04.863)
And I think acknowledging that is beautiful. I understand, you know, I love forms. I love the standardization. I love how it looks when you get, you know, three, five, seven martial artists doing the same form and they are dialed and they look the same. And I think that's really cool.
But what I think is cooler is if I ask them all a question about what they've just done and they come up with a slightly different answer. That I think is even better.
Matt Abrahams (01:02:32.54)
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
Jeremy (01:02:37.599)
All right, well, I'm gonna throw it to you to end in a minute, just your final words, but to the audience, we're gonna make sure we get these links in the show notes for Matt's book and all that stuff. So make sure you check that out. Should be, if you're listening on your phone or tablet, should be in the show notes right there. But if you don't see it there, go to whistlekickmarshallartsradio .com. It's where the full show notes are anyway, including the transcript and all that good stuff.
And remember, if you want to support us in our mission, whistlekick .com is the place to head for all the things. So Matt, I do appreciate you and would invite you. How do we wrap up this varied and enjoyable conversation today?
Matt Abrahams (01:03:23.9)
Well, I always recommend in wrapping up any communication, you start with gratitude. So Jeremy, thank you. Thank you for your time. Thank you for your insightful questions and for guiding the conversation. You know, I think at the end of the day, the martial arts communication, it's all about connecting. It's all about learning about yourself and it's all about growing. And there's an aspect of that that's self -focused, but it's also other focused.
Jeremy (01:03:29.855)
Thank you.
Matt Abrahams (01:03:53.564)
And so anybody who studies the martial arts, one, I applaud you and I encourage you. For me, it has been a lifelong journey, one that I hope will continue for a long time to come. And I invite others to step on that path as well. And from that, take in the lessons and learn and grow and inspire others as well. And Jeremy, you do a great job of inspiring.
not just me, but everybody who listens. So thank you.