Episode 915 - Joe Lewis: The Legacy
Left to Right - Jeremy Lesniak (Host) talked with Danny Dring and Bill Wallace about Joe Lewis.
In this episode, Jeremy sits down with Bill “Superfoot” Wallace and Danny Dring, to talk about the legacy of their friend Joe Lewis. If you’d prefer more of a profile-style episode, we did one a few years ago about Joe Lewis.
Joe Lewis: The Legacy - Episode 915
SUMMARY
Joe Lewis was a legendary martial artist known for his skill, charisma, and innovation. He had a significant impact on the sport of sparring and brought an academic approach to his training. Joe was a tough competitor and had superb control in his techniques. He accumulated a group of dedicated students who admired and learned from him. Joe was known for his practical jokes and his ability to make people laugh. He was an innovative thinker and constantly analyzed fights and techniques. Joe's legacy lives on through the stories and memories shared by those who trained with him and those he called friends. Joe Lewis was known for his unique personality and his impact on the martial arts world. He had a strong friendship with many and today Bill "Superfoot" Wallace and Danny Dring share many memorable experiences together. Joe was a tough and skilled fighter, and he had a knack for turning it on and off during sparring sessions. He was also an innovator in the martial arts, being one of the first world champions in both full contact karate and kickboxing. Joe's legacy lives on through his teachings and his impact on the martial arts community.
TAKEAWAYS
* Joe Lewis was a highly skilled and innovative martial artist who had a significant impact on the sport of sparring.
* He had an academic approach to training and constantly analyzed fights and techniques.
* Joe accumulated a group of dedicated students who admired and learned from him.
* He was known for his practical jokes and ability to make people laugh. Joe Lewis had a unique personality and was known for his toughness and skill as a fighter.
* He had a strong friendship with Jeremy and they shared many memorable experiences together.
* Joe was an innovator in the martial arts, being one of the first world champions in both full contact karate and kickboxing.
* His legacy lives on through his teachings and his impact on the martial arts community.
CHAPTERS
00:00 Introduction and Joe Lewis' Legacy
06:06 Meeting John and Further Connections
09:26 Teaching and Training with Joe Lewis
15:13 Joe Lewis' Charisma and Sense of Humor
25:30 Joe Lewis' Academic Approach to Training
29:08 Memorable Experiences with Joe
36:21 Training and Teaching with Joe
42:16 The Falling Out with Bruce Lee
46:40 Joe Lewis: The Best of His Time
51:15 Conclusion and Acknowledgements
✅Subscribe to whistlekick Martial Arts Radio on the following platforms:
🎧Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/3mVnZmf
🎧Spotify: https://spoti.fi/3yHVdHQ
🎧Google: https://bit.ly/3kLSpo8
✅You can find whistlekick on all social media platforms using the handle @whistlekick or visit our website at https://www.whistlekick.com or https://www.whistlekickmartialartsradio.com
SHOW TRANSCRIPT
Jeremy (00:05.344)
Thank you. Thanks for being here. So when I started the show, my goal, of course, was to talk to everyone. But not everyone was still around. And as I got to know you and meet people through you, I kept hearing these wonderful stories about this man. And as I heard more and more stories, I got more and more sad that I was never going to meet him. And so...
We're here to talk about Joe Lewis and talk about his legacy. Because there aren't a whole lot of people that left that big of a mark.
Jeremy (00:47.52)
How did you first meet Joe? Well I met Joe in 1968. I had heard about him in Okinawa because I studied at the same school he was at. He was there a year and a half before.
But I met Joe in 1968 at the USK Grand Nationals in Kansas City, Missouri. I'm working on taking the stance, throwing kicky things, sparring with guys, and using techniques. He comes up and says, where did you get that stance? And I said, well, I studied in Okinawa. Where? I said, Ezo Shimabuku. When? And I said, 65, 66. Why was there a 64, 65? And I said, oh, wow. That's great. Shobayashi Shoryunru. And he goes, wow.
And we started talking back and forth. And I said, I did this dance out of necessity because I got a bad right knee. He said, well, I do it because my front hand's a very fast back fist and a side kick. And the closer the weapon is to the opponent, the easier it is to throw. We started going back and forth and had a good time. And he was the defending champion. It was a great little story. So I win my round.
Jeremy (01:57.76)
Victor Moore wins his ring and a guy named Artie Simmons wins his ring and a guy named Dirk Mosig wins his ring. So there's four of us and Joe Lewis. I fight Victor Moore and I beat Victor. And then...
Victor Moore fights Victor and wins. So there's three of us left, plus Joe. Me, Artie Simmons, and Victor Moore. I'd already beat Victor Moore, so he's done. So I fight Artie Simmons for first place. Now, I'm the only one, and the whole thing that's not part of the USK at the time. So I'm kicking him, I'm bouncing kicks off his head, and kicking him. No point, no point, no point. He throws a reverse, I said, okay, but he hit me right here. Point.
So I say, well, okay, at least I got second place and I'm maybe gonna fight Joe. So they announce the fighters are gonna fight for the grand championship. First, third and fourth. And I go.
Excuse me, can I ask a question? I really didn't want to, but I wanted to know why. I said, how come I get second place and they're going to fight the first place winner and the third and fourth place winner? Well, it's just the way it went. I'm glad. I'm glad because I'll tell you what happened. So, okay, the first match is with Joe Lewis and Dirk Bozey. He beats Dirk Bozey back in the 68, 69. If you got two points, you were the winner. It wasn't a four, five, six, tip, you know, just two points was the winner.
he'd be stood up for the sex the fights victory or the victim or comes out there and you'll just got ready reading there's more water and tries to take a look at it waiting that joseph
Jeremy (03:53.44)
So they started to bow in. Victor comes running across her, punches Joe right in the mouth. I mean, it was a good shot. But before Victor could pull his hand back, Joe grabbed him, threw him on the floor, in a perfect forward stance, goes boom, boom, boom. Must have been 35, 40 times. I doubt if it was that many, but it sure seemed like it. They pulled Joe off.
Victor goes over to the corner, this is the funny part. Victor goes over to the corner, picks up a chair and comes to Joe with a brick. I've never heard this story. Oh yeah, well you don't want to. And I go, wow, so much for martial arts. Yeah. You know, look, I'm gonna take the chair away. But anyway, it got all settled down and then Joe beat him.
And then he fought Artie Simmons for a grand championship. Artie Simmons is a lightweight. So there was no problem there at all. And that was one of the things that Joe did. I went, holy crap, what just happened? And I'm working out with Glen Keeney at the time in Anderson, Indiana. We go back to the school, and there's a big sign on the front window that says, Joe Lewis is tough.
because he beat you. But I was glad I didn't fight. I was in 68. In 69 I went back and won the thing in 69. And then in 70 I fought Joe. But Joe is one of those guys, intimidation is the funniest thing in the world. You look at him and say, he looks like a nice guy. Cute, handsome. I wanted to kiss him. But I didn't. Anyway, he stands there in very formidable form. If you just look at him, you go, wow. Then he does this.
He's got these two knuckles about the size of golf balls. And the funny thing is, he hits you with them. But he has absolutely superb control. I mean, at the time I told you last night when I was at when we fought in 1970, I mean, I didn't have a mark on my face, but he several times and great control. When did you meet John? 1981.
Jeremy (06:06.272)
He had been in Memphis.
Jeremy (06:11.136)
training and what was the guy fight training fighting for the super heavyweight?
Jeremy (06:22.784)
I just had thought of the second go and it escaped me. Black guy? Yeah. Hold on, I'll tell you. Keep talking, I'll tell you. Okay. Anyway, so I was in a Taekwondo organization that had just broke away from the ATA. USTF is headed up by a guy named Jim Boatine and Mike Brown. And so anyway.
Joe and this.
Anthony Elmore. Anthony Elmore, yes. I'm so glad I remembered that. One of the guys at Boatine had running the USTF at that time was a guy named Mike Brown. Mike knew Anthony Elmore and Joe had been training with them and so Anthony and Joe came and were the guests at our Taekwondo tournament. This was in 1981, spring of 81 and they came in and I got his, still got the
board a broken board from a demo and I had Anthony's signature and Joe Lewis's signature on it and then fast forward a year or two yeah there's a guy named Keith Kirk who's a pass the route guy in Little Rock and at that time now he's doing show to come but at that time he was doing possible and Keith was tough competitor you know excellent excellent martial artist and I take my students over to his school to spar
And he'd bring his guys over to my spa me and Joe in for a seminar and saw
Jeremy (08:02.272)
went over. I mean, at this time, you know, I'm young and Joe and Bill, these were the guys that were on the cover of all the magazines. They're doing the movies there. You know, I mean, they're the men, you know, they're the guys at this, at this time. And, uh, so it was, it was really cool. I went over and I trained with Joe and Keith had him in a couple of times. And one day I'm sitting in my gym and I get phone ranks, pick it up. It was Joe. I am coming through town. You want to do a seminar? Yeah.
You know and so he I became a stop on his seminar circuit and he came through and he and his wife and the blue van, you know, they came in several times and and did seminars and then I lost contact with them for a couple of years and then Jerry Beasley was doing a camp RU JKD Bradford University JKD and
I went one year and then the second year I went because Joe was going to be the headliner. It started in 88 where it was Joe, Jeff and I and Jerry Beasley. The JKD camp or was that Karate University? That was the university, Karate College. Yeah. And I got to, it was, this was the JKD camp separate from the Karate College. And then,
I went and Joe recognized me and used me as a Zuki and we drilled and he basically beat me up all weekend and then I got a call not long after that asking if I would be available to do an All -Star Crotty Camp featuring Bill Wallace, Joe Lewis and Jerry Beasley. But I'd like to be an instructor. Jeff wasn't there at that one. First one? No, not at Tulsa. Oh, Tulsa, that's right. I understand.
Well, I think I did this. Let me check my calendar. Yeah, I think I'm available!
Jeremy (10:07.232)
And then the following year, if I'm not mistaken, that was in 95. And then I started teaching at the Karate College. And I taught, got to teach with Bill and Joe at the Karate College for a dozen years. And got more and more involved with both Joe's organization and Bill's organization. Went on to become black belts with both of those gentlemen. And the rest, as they say, is history. Had Joe into my gym.
numerous times for seminars and then would see him at fights and you know he MC'd or was a guest and you know guest at a lot of early MMA shows and kickboxing events just as Bill was. So I tried to I chased these I just like I'm here now because you know I just follow these guys around the country every chance I get. And that's kind of a good lead into.
I don't quite know how to ask this question. When I talk to people who spend a lot of time with Joe, they use this phrase that they were one of his guys. I've heard a number of people say, you know, one of Joe's guys, Joe had his guys and it seemed like he just kind of accumulated people. It wasn't, it seemed very organic. I mean, here you have this fantastic human being. He was absolutely superb.
good -looking, gorgeous, hell of a fighter, great technician, intelligent. I mean, why not? And so, like Danny said, he'd use them, so they'd get notoriety that way. And other people would come in and say, hey.
How does Joe do this? So hey, would you come in for a seminar? Things like this. So and then Joe and I started doing the seminars together a long, long time ago. And then because it's kind of funny, Joe and I are the same exact system. Showing room. Showing room. But his take on it is different than mine. Joe wants to be right here. I want to be where you are. Because from that, he can't reach me.
Jeremy (12:20.128)
So for him to reach me, he has to cover distance. That gives me the time to get out of there or to maybe counter. Here, I'm beat up, as he did to everybody. So, yeah, and so that therefore our philosophies and fighting is different. I'm 165 pounds. Who am I going to hurt? Joe, at the time we were fighting, we had 210. Pure muscle. I remember we were...
hit him in the ribs and he goes, you okay? I went, no, it hurts. And just tough. And had a mind that you would not believe in. He would dissect ideas, dissect techniques and improve them. He basically is the one that taught me the left hook. Really? When you get ready for kickboxing, you know, when you get ready for the full contact. He came and spent, 74, he spent time with me.
And I'm naturally left handed. I fight this way still to this day. And he just bring the hand up and hook. He had a good left hook. He had basically a great ridge hand. He and Mike Stone were the guys that made it very famous, very well known.
Jeremy (13:38.88)
When did you feel like Joe had kind of, I'll go back to that word, accumulated you, it pulled you in? When he invited me to come teach in Tulsa. And it was, Joe wasn't like, didn't toss out compliments.
You know, it was, if he said something nice, I remembered that was... He was not well. It was at a seminar in High Point, North Carolina. It was a gentleman named Steve Snyder's place. And...
Joe said, you know, there's not a lot of guys that can teach it and can do it. You and I are a couple that can. I called my dad. Dad, Joe just gave me a compliment. You know what I mean? He didn't mean it. Yeah, I'm sure he didn't. But it made me feel good. Well, for him.
After that one camp, we did a kicking drill back and forth. And when Joe got to going fast, he was going fast and I was redlining, but I was doing everything I could. He goes, not too many people can do that with me. I was pretty good. And he walked off. You know, I was like pretty good. Well, I should have taped it. Yeah, I should have taped it. And then after that, that's when I got the call to come. And then he had me coming in to, you know, have Beasley invite me in to teach.
at the Crowdy College. So that was the beginning.
Jeremy (15:12.416)
I sealed the deal, there was a Sparky McDuffie as a boxing coach in West Monroe, Louisiana. And I went down there, Joe was gonna be in Louisiana, he invited me down. I was telling Bill this the other night, I went three rounds with Joe, and I had this really thick leather headgear on. And he's wearing 16 ounce gloves, hands are wrapped, 16 ounce gloves. When I took my headgear off, I looked up,
I looked like I'd been stung by bees and I had knots all over my head, you know, through the head gear. And here's the thing, the knots weren't on my jaw. My nose was not on my nose to Bill's point. I mean, he hit me exactly where he wanted to hit me. And he wanted to see what I was made of. And he would carry me and then he would pressure me. And that's what Joe did. I mean, to get a black belt with Joe, you had to go with the old guys. You went three rounds with Joe. And, you know,
You had to, you know, you had to be able to continue to stand up or at least get up. And he wanted to know what you were made of. And, and, uh, Joe, you know, we laughed, but in the early days with Joe, it was like being jumped into a gang. It was, it was an initiation. And I want to speak to that because there's, you know, when, when, when I hear these stories about Joe, from the outside,
It doesn't always sound like someone that you wanted to train with maybe to get better Maybe skill wise sure two words it hurt I can only imagine but there's there's something about him that is very common when I have these conversations Does they everyone loved him understand this? Chuck Norris was superb great fighter
Mike Stone was a superb fighter. People that came before them that came after him were absolutely superb. But Joe Lewis primarily put sparring, sport karate on the map. Up to that point, there'd be a tournament, two or three hundred, four hundred people come to the tournament and they'd fight. The winner, then you're gone. Then Joe would compete, and everybody come to watch him. Because he did it. Not necessarily better, but more effective.
Jeremy (17:36.192)
You know, you knew that if he hit you, he could have done the damage. You knew that if you got a point in on him, he's going to get it back. Like all of us, you know, we want to get even. Sure. And, but he was, I mean, in my whole career in point fighting, I had a sidekick rounds kicking a back fist, a no kick. Joe had primarily a back fist, a sidekick and reverse punch that would rip your head shreds.
He would go to tournaments and he would grab your sleeve, hit you with a sidekick. You go roll across the floor, he'd still have his sleeve in your hand, in his hand. And you go, okay, I guess that's called power. But absolutely, like Dennis said, superb control. Do exactly how to hit you, where to hit you. And when kickboxing started.
He was the only one of all of us in the kick man on the team at the time that knew anything at all about boxing because he worked with Joey O 'Belo out in Los Angeles and we're thinking holy crap with his karate techniques that he already has with the boxing technique that he's learning what are you going to do? And he was you know absolutely superb and just you know
We still think about it. Every year we get together in High Point, we celebrate Joe. And stories, good stories, bad stories. You understand what I'm saying? Yeah. What's so funny? A little anecdotes that he's so funny. Yeah. That's his show. And you remember that and you miss it.
exceptionally charismatic and exceptionally curmudgeonous, you know, he was Dependent you never knew what Joe you were gonna get he loved his guys. I mean just like bill loves his guys. I mean we Tend to gravitate, you know towards bill just like we gravitated towards towards Joe and being He I was just no nonsense
Jeremy (19:51.776)
interesting I mean he was a no -nonsense kind of guy if you will but yet you know he was a practical joker he loved to laugh and you knew like he was the real deal right just like when you watch Bill you know huh yeah that's that's real my my thing was like not not big I've never
never gonna be a Joe Lewis but there was a lot of the principles from Joe I was able to learn and he had a brilliant mind and he
put things together and he thought about stuff and up until the day he died, I would get emails from him sometimes two and three o 'clock in the morning and it would be video of fights and he would go okay at 142 in this round, this guy does this and then he does it again at 150. And then in the next round he does it again and then he capitalized on it on and so he's doing fight analysis and fight breakdowns. I mean, damn near until the day he died. He was just.
He just was thinking about stuff like that. And I tell people, look, I'm never going to be a Bill Wallace. I don't have that speed. But what I can do is I can learn Bill's system and his option offense and his chambers and his kicking and things that I learned from Joe. And I try to be the best Danny Dring I can be. So people gather around, there's guys that gathered around Joe that tried to be
do Joe stuff, Joe's way. And then there's people that gathered around them because he would be insightful. I can remember sitting around listening and he launched into a, into a talk about this out of the blue, we're cutting up talking and all of a sudden he started talking about the left jab and about access of rotation and movement. And it was the most I have lectured that that conversation and talked about that conversation numerous times through my career.
Jeremy (21:59.858)
But it was like one of those wow moments I mean his hit the way he was talking about setting up the jab and rotating on this axis or rotating on that axis of throwing it from this position I was like, holy shit. That was brilliant. We're just a little bit with the Battle of Atlanta very first one 1970 I'm sitting here Joe sit there my friend. Can he sit there? Joe says I have a question for you because it's supposed to be no face contact.
So that's a jab, but that's a jab too. Are you going to call both of them? And Joe Corley is in charge, he goes, uh, uh, could you do that slow? Well, you know, the jab comes straight out, straight back, right? But also if you watch Bruce Lee throw a jab, it's out, then curves it.
well they're both and if you watch Muhammad Ali he throws a jab and cuts it back which cuts you to pieces so you go and this was 1970 so you go what did he just do? you know he's in a suit and it's you know
fast very quick so you got to say wow innovative like Danny said very innovative he was a first to do the back fist to make it effective well in the short news system this is the back fist that doesn't work not in a street situation people be well if I don't hit the nose I break my knuckles and all said is now it's this
Jeremy (23:37.44)
it's the same but this is quicker and safer because you're out back so and you talk to him and you go wow and and years later Muhammad Ali does a paper written for him that he said the most important punch he'd ever learned was a jab because just like Joe it kept the big guys away from him and set up everybody else I mean
One of my favorite combinations is the back to side kick. Joe had it down to a science. He was fighting David Moon in San Antonio, Texas. Joe won his division, David Moon won his division. They square off. Joe's standing, bam! And you're like, what did you just do? And David Moon is left side forward. Point for Joe, because he hit him with a side kick. David Moon got it and turns right side forward. So evidently, Joe got his ribs. Good.
BAM! And I get it, guys. This is all in about 30 seconds. And now he's like this. But the match is over because there's two points, right? And Joe, being jovial Joe, Joe wants to give a hug, right? It's okay. And this is the way he said it. He would not extend his elbow. And I went, okay. And you go, wow. And it was control. So you can imagine he tried to put you through the wall. Which he did several times.
What I'm hearing that's interesting, I've heard so many stories about his skill, his skill in the ring, his presence, his charisma, but what I'm hearing from the two of you that maybe is a little new for me is the academic approach that he brought to things. I didn't know that prior today. Yeah. Well, he, we're here.
Jeremy (25:30.144)
And I did several, several, hundreds of seminars with Joe, because we were on the team. But he would get mad at us. We're in England, doing seminars all over England. And if you've ever been to England, restaurants close at 9 o 'clock.
we did a seminar from seven to nine. I would do 45 minutes, Jeff Smith would do 45 minutes, and Joe would do 45 minutes. Nine o 'clock, two minutes over. And the only thing open at nine o 'clock at night is McDonald's. I don't want to touch it. Well, is that or buy a candy bar someplace. So we go to McDonald's.
And I'm very persnickety. I want a quarter hamburger royale plain, nothing on it, no cheese, nothing. French fries and a Coke, so I was like, quarter pounder, hamburger royale meal. Jeff ordered his, it's right there, Joe ordered his stuff. And it wasn't the right stuff. And I said, well, here, I'll take it back. No, leave it alone.
And you know, when he makes up his mind, he makes up his mind. I'm not gonna eat that. He picks up, goes over where you guys are sitting, and says, I'll eat it over here.
Jeremy (26:52.512)
What just happened? Why'd you... He moved three tables over. What'd we do? Leave me alone. And he ate it. And all of a sudden, he's okay. Comes back and sits down with us.
Jeff and I go, did what just happen? Just happened? And Jeff goes...
So, you know, and that's like nothing like that last 10 minutes never happened. That was a commudginess part that I mentioned earlier. Yeah. And, you know, you might say something to be funny. Like, here's the most important part. I've known Joe since 1968. I was there when he died. Never in his life to me or Danny or anybody has he ever apologized.
It's not in his language. We're karate college and love him for it. We're karate college. And he made real some dumb mistake. And I brought it out. I said, Joe, you will apologize to me or give me a kiss on the cheek? I said, no, no, no. Either a kiss on the cheek or apologize.
Joe either a kiss on the cheek or a pause. And he kissed me on the cheek. And I went, you gotta be kidding. Joe, and like I said, you don't even have to mean it. Just apologize. And he goes, I'm gonna go. And they really, I mean, this is one of those things. I get it, I take full responsibility for it.
Jeremy (28:35.392)
I apologize for turning around too fast.
Yeah, there are thousands of stories and you know the one with you know Victor Moore the one with with David Moon in 1970 when I when I got very very lucky and beat I'm fighting Joe Lewis at the USK Grand Nationals 1970 I'm throwing everything if I had a kitchen sink I would have thrown that at him the score is 0 -0 going into the third round nothing's working
So I turned right side forward. I come in, I sweep him. There's a picture of a black belt magazine. I grab his knee, punch him in the chest as hard as I can. It bounces off. Before I get the fist back, he grabbed me and go... And I hear the referee say, point. And I said, yes, it was. Thinking it's calling his shot. He said, no, yours was first. I said, you gotta be kidding. And it's still in the third round. I said, well, now I die.
And he immediately got the point back. And after though I got lucky in the end over time over and we're sitting outside talking. Bitch and bellyaching about how that I said, you know what, Joe, I'm really tired of this because Joe was a wrestler in high school and I wrestled high school. I'm just going to pick you up, throw you in the pool. He said, I grab it, pick him up and I'm carrying a double A takedown. I pick him up and I'm walking to the place. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
I said, what? He says, let me take my stuff. He had white pants on. And he said, let me take my stuff out of my pockets. I said, I shouldn't have. I said, OK. So I laid him down, and he takes off. And I went, why'd he take off? I turn around. There's two Indiana State policemen walking towards me. This is 2 o 'clock in the morning, and at a Holiday Inn hotel outside. Uh, can I have a word with you, man? I said.
Jeremy (30:35.84)
Yes, sir. He says, we've had some complaints about commotions outside here. You need to hold it down a little bit. Sorry, my friend and I were just having a couple of discussions and we got excited. Hold it down. OK. I turn around about from here to where the chairs are over there. Joe goes out from behind. I went, you got to be kidding.
He went, are they gone? I went, Joe Lewis, the baddest guy in the world, the baddest guy in the world, hiding so these two seniors doesn't say, calm down. And I went, I'll tell that story forever. And it's the truth. But then we started talking and I never did get to throw him in the pool. I would have loved to, I would have loved to. But I mean, Danny's got to, I mean, if we sat here and thought we could take the next five hours.
and tell you about stories that Joe was part of and you know he's there and he'd do something absolutely stupid, absolutely stupid. You'd hate him for it. But in about three seconds you would forgive him. Because he was that kind of a guy. And he'd teach something and even if it was wrong, that you thought it was wrong, it'd work for him.
So how you gonna say, that won't work. And aggressive, great defensive fighter, and I mean, very calculated. And for 210 pounds, lightning.
For me my best understanding I guess for the best example of my understanding from you of your friendship with him is the exhibition match That 90 91 90 We're I've watched it the two of you beat the tar out of each other and you were friends on either side Oh, yeah, there are a lot of people that can do that. Here's the story Karen Turner who lived in Denver, Colorado?
Jeremy (32:51.584)
set up this exhibition, set up this fight for pay -per -view. And she said, Bill, would you like to do this thing? I said, love to. She said, because I was still doing the kick in there like that. And I said, love to. She says, will you pick your opponent? And I went, I'll pick Chuck Norris. So I called Chuck and I said, this isn't eight, nine, so he's still doing films. I said, Chuck?
We have a great chance for you and I to do an exhibition match on pay -per -view television. We could choreograph this thing through, it'd be absolutely phenomenal. Better than a force of one. I'd love to, Bill, but I'm working on a film. So I said, aha, Bane or Kitties? So I called Bane. I've got to be someplace.
I said, okay, I'll call Joe. And Joe says, okay, I'll do it. Now understand, I'm 165 pounds, he's 210. I said, Joe, please do me a favor. Get down to at least 190 because it's gonna look silly the way it is. And he said, oh, okay. He weighed 198 when we did. But it was like, so we set up a deal. We said, we'll just fight.
Jokingly I say if I get you trouble all back off And if you get me in trouble you back off that's what I meant for you Okay, we'll do that and we went out there and For seven rounds we beat the crap out of each other and it was phenomenal and people to the audience if you have not watched this It's easy to find and you do too. Thank you. Here's the funny thing We were the semi main event because it was an exhibition
People today don't even know who the main event was. Who was the main event on that card? Dennis Alexo and Darryl Hannigan. People don't know. And Darryl Hannigan after his win came on the press conference and yelled at the screen and said, why are you guys having these two guys? They're over there, they're older. We were 46, 47 years old. Let those five, well I'm the head guy over there, but nobody cared about you.
Jeremy (35:02.048)
And we had a blast. And we did interviews afterwards and had a blast. And we both had black eyes. And the chairman of the boxing commission comes into our room afterwards, starts screaming and hollering at us. That was no excuse. You guys were hitting each other. That was you. You'll never fight again. I said, hold on.
That's the way we spar. You know, if I hit you too hard, I back off. You hit me too hard. You back off. It's not like, you know, we're having to we were going. We're done with the eagle part and we had a blast and loved it. And you know, and I've done some hours before where it says, you know, hey, I've thrown the best shots I've ever thrown him and nothing worked. Bounced off. And then the way I fight, I get out of the way. So if he's got a you, you know what he gave those things? No, even in the glove.
they were still sticking out look like you know and so we had a blast and understand this happened in 1990 people still look at it that's what 30 34 years ago and we had a blast had an absolute blast did you have any experiences like that with Joe with him being able to turn it off and on with you? Of course.
Like I said, from sparring with him to going to his conferences, you know, Joe Louis Fighting Systems conferences, teaching with him at camps, being his, being his uki, you know, and you could tell the guys that had worked with Joe because you'd stand up in front of him and then he would lock everything down because he was fixing to smack you, you know what I mean? I came out after,
A seminar we were doing in Wilmington, North Carolina at John Maynard School. I had this prints on my ribcage. And that's just from, that's just standing there as he's teaching class. But he'd called the guys out that he knew he could work with. I learned a lot about running seminars from him, how he would talk.
Jeremy (37:21.824)
control, you know, because people would anticipate and do weird stuff. So he would put his hand like, you know, he'd be talking and he'd have his hand on your hand. And I asked him, what do you do that? He goes, because I've had idiots try to hit me. You know, and it's like, I'm teaching a seminar. I'm not trying to fight them. And so I know if I've got my hand on them, I can snap them over.
I don't know if I want to see that level of stupidity, you know, because that would not go well. Happens all the time. Yeah. I used to, a long time ago, not to get off the thing with Joe, but we would do seminars together. And then we, now understand I'm 165 pounds. So I'd say, if anybody wants to spar, we can spar for, you know, a minute, minute and a half to a minute each. So, and I always get somebody, not even a high ranking belt, a brown belt or somebody, think I'm going to clock him.
This is where they're going to make a name for themselves. The only name they get is, you know, I, you know, and you hurt them. And it's an old thing. Joe had this. I mean, if there's a chance when you and I are sparring, the one of us might get hurt. It's going to be you. Cause you know, we're, we're getting older. And if I'm showing you a technique or Joe's showing you a technique, he's got to show you that it works.
So if you try to defend it, he'll put it in a little bit harder, a little bit faster, a little bit stronger. And then you go, huh. And sometimes that's a wonderful sound. Because you just prove to him it works. Especially if you're not the one making the sound. Exactly. Yes. But yeah, I mean, he's been thinking about this. He's been going 12 years now. And.
his name is still prevalent throughout sparring, throughout fighting, throughout the martial arts. Because he did something that at that time nobody had ever done. He put power with the speed. And you knew what he was going to do, but you couldn't do anything about it.
Jeremy (39:36.736)
And you'd say, oh God, here it comes. Bam, it'd be there. When people talk about impact in the martial arts, of course, we talk about Bruce Lee, you know, been gone quite a long time and is still the most recognizable martial artist on the planet, made some significant contributions. Chuck Norris, also in that group. But from my outside perspective, Joe belongs in that group for the impact that he made and yet. Well, you mentioned Bruce Lee.
Lee, here's what I think is interesting is that, you know, the first time Joe trained privately with Bruce Lee and the first time that Bruce and Bruce asked Joe to train and the first time he told Bruce no, he wasn't interested in training in coming through, wasn't interested in learning and then later Bruce asked him again and at that time, you know, going back to Joe's intellect, he told me, he goes, you know, at that the second time he asked me, Bruce had gotten more,
a little more philosophical and had gone away from his classical Wing Chung and gotten more into, I mean he was one of the first people to really mix martial arts. I mean that was, that was.
Bruce's thing and I said the second time he asked me Because he was getting more into the philosophy stuff. I was more interested and so I did and In in Joe pressure tested I mean he was out there competing and fighting and he was the one that was actually pressure testing some of the theories and concepts, so that's a
and on Joe's black belt certificate he listed JKD methodologies. So, you know, among the things that you were learning when you were training with Joe, his, Joe's intellect, you know, he wasn't classically trained and by that, I mean, he didn't go to university, he didn't go to college, okay, where professors will...
Jeremy (41:47.84)
have you do papers and then they kind of call and they weed and they guide your academic development. So Joe really didn't have that per se. But he was nonetheless brilliant. The falling out? The average Bruce. Bruce?
early 70s when he was working with Joe. Wanted Joe to claim him, Bruce Lee to claim him as his instructor. And he said, no I can't do that. Because his instructor was Isaac Humbug and so forth. And he says, I can't claim you as my instructor. So that was a falling out right there. Bruce Lee. Why was that important to Bruce?
He wanted to have the fighters, and at that time Joe was it, to be the niche that he had. If Joe was my student, how many of these other people would want to claim me as their instructor? And we have, my instructor to this day is still Ezra Shunmuku. I have worked with tons of, I worked with Don Reed.
I can't say he wasn't because he taught me stuff. So you can't. And what we do is at the drop of a hat, we'll say, oh, he taught me how to do this. We're asking, he didn't. My boxing trainers, I had a boxing trainer right off the bat named Joey Hadley. His job for him was to beat the crap out of me every day for about a month. Not teach me anything, but just beat the crap out of me. And finally I go, you know.
starting to hurt. So he said, well, I want you to be able to come into it with my boxing coach. He let me stand sideways because we joy had to do this, you know, which is the general indecency. But joy bevel heavy to a sideways so I can use the jab and hook. So I said, now I like it up to that point. I didn't like it. But then I started using. So Joe's got the same personality.
Jeremy (44:05.12)
If it works for me, I'm liking it. If it doesn't, maybe I can change it a little bit, maybe I can make it work somehow, but I still like my stuff. And if you think about it...
Jeremy (44:23.072)
According to Bob Wall, according to Chuck Norris, Bruce never competed, never fought.
Jeremy (44:34.24)
great movement. He learned his kicking techniques from Jun Rhee. Because in the Wing Chunk System, there are very few kicks to the knee, to the groin. Self -defense time. But he learned his kicking techniques from Jun Rhee. So which made him in that much more available to the public. But Joe still knows, he'll do it my way.
Joe was supposed to be the bad guy and Bruce Lee's returning the dragon. But Joe didn't want to die.
And I think I've heard you say that that was kind of the shot that he had. And then they. Yeah. OK, fine. You know, you won't do this. You won't do this. Hey, if you're an upcoming actor, I lived that for 20 years. If you're an upcoming actor, there should be because there's thousands of people that you should never say, I won't do that or I won't do this. Fine. Next person, because that's what they'll do anything. And and the stupid thing about it is I've done 18 films.
died in 18 films.
Jeremy (45:46.144)
good dire I can die with the best of somebody that I do and the play they use yeah in every film you were dying to be in film I died after but if you think about it in every in every in every film even a love story there has to be a bad guy and Joe would have made a great bad guy
if bob wall could be a bad guy joe would have been a great one but he didn't want to die we've only got a couple minutes left and as you said we could do hours upon hours on the subject of joe but let's let's kind of wrap up and how would you how do you want the audience to think about joe he was the best at that time
can't tell before. But at that time he was the best it was. Everybody used to say Mike Stone was tough. But I heard stories from Bob Wall and Chuck that Joe would spar with Mike Stone and he'd just play with him.
Mike Stone was back in the early 60s. So the techniques that were in the early 60s are different than the late 60s and the 70s. The fighting was different. Back in the early 60s, if you had 200 people in a tournament, you had a gigantic success because there weren't that many black holes. When I came back from Okinawa, if you were a second degree black hole, you were a bad dude because there weren't very many. And, taekwondo didn't even happen until 68, 69. There was tongsido, but not taekwondo.
Jeremy (47:29.664)
But he just, he'll never forget him. Because if you've ever met him, you won't forget him. If you're a girl and you met him, you won't forget him. How do you want people to think about Joe's been an innovator? You know that.
Joe wanted everybody to know he was the first world champion in both full contact karate and kickboxing. You know, he had world champions and two different. We think of them as being the same, but they were different at that time. But he was an innovator. I mean, he...
was the predecessor, you know, kind of the father of what we consider now to be kickboxing. He definitely was drawing various arts in. He had a wrestling background just like Bill and was mixing and incorporating boxing and just as Bill did, but was innovative. I mean, you know, these guys are the guys that were the predecessors to what we now know as
MMA. They were, by that time everybody was very, you did this style.
And they broke that mold and they in Bill said earlier, which I think is really important is that they came from the same instructor, but they evolve their their personal style to be so different. You know, Bill took what the what he had and developed his techniques. Joe took what he had and he developed his techniques. And you wouldn't know by looking at him that they came from the same school. You know, not at all. But he was such a.
Jeremy (49:13.618)
He was an innovator, he was ahead of his time in the things that he did that we now think of as the norm. They weren't the norm back then. Same thing with Bill. When Joe started fighting, I don't believe that anybody even knew what a sidekick looked like.
they fought in the front stance. So everything was a front kick or rear leg roundhouse kick. When I started company, they didn't use the front leg for anything. I use the front leg roundhouse kick, right? That's no good. That's no power, no point until you drop somebody. But Jeff, Joe was, he'd be sideways and all of a sudden crash. The guy goes.
You can't say no point because there's power there because he flew out of the ring. And you got okay. And the back fist, the speed was there. I don't think as great as Chuck Norris was and is to this day. He never threw a back fist because he fought like this. And you can't just, you gotta do something with it. When Joe started from that, look at the top fighters and the top boxers in the world. Muhammad Ali, Tommy Hearns, Sugar Ray Leonard.
Mayweather. They all threw the jab from down here. Not from here, but from down here. And that's where you threw it from. And you couldn't even see it. I tried. That's where I ran from.
Gentlemen, thank you. I appreciate this and no amount of time really do Joe's legacy justice look Joe up YouTube fights Facebook Fantastic plenty of stuff out there and and I was remissed at the beginning for not acknowledging and thank you Terry for letting us do this here at Marshmallow symposium and
Jeremy (51:14.53)
So thank you. Thanks guys. Thank you.