Episode 888 - Sifu Michael Martin
In today's episode Jeremy chats with Sifu Michael Martin about the internal martial arts and misconceptions about them.Sifu Michael Martin - Episode 888
SUMMARY
In this episode, Sifu Michael Martin discusses his martial arts journey and the transitions he made between different styles. He emphasizes the importance of individual expression in martial arts and adapting teaching to students' backgrounds. Sifu Martin also explores the limitations of traditional martial arts training and the value of cross-training. He highlights the element of surprise in combat and the need for research in martial arts. Additionally, he addresses misconceptions about Tai Chi and the aggressive nature of internal martial arts.
In this conversation, Sifu Martin discusses the origins and misconceptions of internal martial arts. He explains how the internal arts division emerged in the early 20th century as a way for aristocratic scholars to justify their training among their elitist friends. Michael debunks the belief that internal arts were developed in Daoist monasteries and highlights the reality of old masters in martial arts. He also discusses the changing perception of internal arts and the impact of the MMA craze on martial arts training. Michael emphasizes the importance of understanding the reasons behind the techniques and approaches in martial arts.
TAKEAWAYS
Individual expression is important in martial arts, and teachers should adapt their instruction to students' backgrounds.
Cross-training in different martial arts styles can enhance skills and broaden perspectives.
The element of surprise can be advantageous in combat, and unfamiliar techniques can catch opponents off guard.
Full contact training can teach valuable lessons about fighting spirit and the effectiveness of techniques.
Misconceptions about Tai Chi and internal martial arts can hinder understanding of their combative nature. The internal arts division in martial arts emerged in the early 20th century as a way for aristocratic scholars to justify their training among their elitist friends.
The belief that internal arts were developed in Daoist monasteries is a misconception. The reality is that old masters in martial arts were not necessarily spiritually enlightened beings.
The MMA craze has led to a re-examination of martial arts, with practitioners realizing the importance of training in various aspects of combat.
Understanding the reasons behind the techniques and approaches in martial arts is crucial for effective training and development.
CHAPTERS
00:00 Introduction and Overview
01:19 Transitioning Between Martial Arts Styles
03:24 Exploring Internal Concepts
06:04 Continuing the Martial Arts Journey
08:04 Adapting Teaching to Individual Backgrounds
09:34 The Role of a Martial Arts Teacher
12:09 The Importance of Individual Expression in Martial Arts
16:53 The Limitations of Traditional Martial Arts Training
18:20 The Evolution of Martial Arts Styles
20:19 Different Paths in Martial Arts
23:26 The Principles of Martial Arts
25:46 The Effectiveness of Techniques in Combat
27:32 The Value of Cross-Training in Martial Arts
29:20 The Element of Surprise in Martial Arts
32:23 The Advantage of Unfamiliar Techniques
35:53 The Importance of Research in Martial Arts
36:00 The Motivation to Start Martial Arts
38:11 The Lessons Learned from Full Contact Training
40:38 The Aggressive Nature of Internal Martial Arts
44:08 The Misconceptions about Tai Chi
46:00 The Importance of Fighting Spirit in Tai Chi and Bagua
49:25 The Intimidating Nature of Skilled Martial Artists
50:13 The Defensive Nature of Martial Arts
50:54 The Origins of Internal Arts
51:58 Marrying Internal Martial Arts with Taoist Concepts
52:54 The Misconception of Spiritual Enlightenment in Internal Arts
53:44 The Reality of Old Masters in Martial Arts
55:57 Changing Perception of Internal Arts
56:41 The MMA Craze and Re-examining Martial Arts
59:28 The Importance of Understanding Why
01:08:55 Closing Thoughts
Show Notes
Connect with Sifu Michael Martin through his Facebook page:
Living Waters Martial Arts
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Show Transcript
Jeremy (00:00.312)
Hey, what's going on everybody? Welcome to another episode of Whistlekick Martial Arts Radio. Today I'm joined by Sifu Michael Martin and we're gonna start chatting in a moment. But for those of you out there, if you're new, go to whistlekick.com, see all the things that we're doing. We do all kinds of stuff. In fact, Sifu and I were just chatting. He said, well, tell me more about what you do. And it was a list, right? We've got a long list of the things that we do. They all interrelate. And if you haven't been over to that website in a while, you might be missing out on some of the new things that we're offering.
If you want to go deeper on this or any other episode of the show, whis is the place to go for that. So Seafood, thank you for being here. Thanks for joining me. Yeah. I know, I know a little bit about you and not even, not even by name. It's more just, you know, Victor. So folks out there, some of you know that Victor Garino is, is part of our team. And, and I talked to him at least once a week, most weeks.
Michael J Martin (00:38.818)
Thank you for having me.
Jeremy (00:58.836)
and you have been the Sifu, right? He vaguely talks, he's like, Sifu, Sifu. And so now I get to put a face to that title. So that's a lot of fun for me. Thanks for being here.
Michael J Martin (01:04.395)
Hahaha!
Michael J Martin (01:15.23)
training for over 40 years.
Jeremy (01:19.024)
Little bit, little while, couple minutes.
Michael J Martin (01:20.43)
Yeah. And my primary arts at this point, well, I started out in Shotokan and transitioned into Shaolin Tiger. And from there, Tai Chi and Ba Gua Zhang, which is my primary focus.
Jeremy (01:39.96)
You just make like, like making big turns, right? That's, I mean, that's, that's not a slight veer on the path. I mean, you know, and I'll, long time listeners know, you know, I'm not disparaging anything. But quite often the arc that we get is I started maybe in Shotokan and I went to Shitoru, right? Staying within karate and you're going Shotokan, uh, Jowlin, right? Like just, it's a big jump.
Michael J Martin (01:43.595)
Well.
Michael J Martin (02:09.398)
Well, from the outside, it might look like that. But when I was going through that, to me, it wasn't a massive adjustment because some folks, and I get it, when we first start training, a lot of folks are not, they train.
with what's available. And sometimes they get really lucky and it's a great fit. And they keep going with their first system. For me, I was never about, oh, I'm a Shotokan guy or a Shaolin guy. I'm a guy who wants to be able to fight better. So.
What happened to me was I joined the Air Force and I couldn't find a Shotokan school to train with. And I stumbled upon this Shaolin Tiger school and those guys were awesome. I'm like, I want to fight that well. So I started.
Jeremy (03:24.181)
Now, I don't know that style. So Shaolin Tiger, I'm inferring this is of Chinese descent? Okay.
Michael J Martin (03:29.622)
Yes. Yeah. So, um, and to me it was like, well, it wasn't so much a, Oh, I'm jumping ship, but it was more of, Oh, this is continuation of the journey. I want to be better at what I do. And these guys are better at what I want to do. So I started doing Shaolin.
Then when I got out of the Air Force, I wanted to continue my training, but I also wanted to continue my training in internal concepts, understanding how the internal works with the Marshal.
Jeremy (04:13.548)
Was that was that concept kind of new with the Shaolin Tiger or had you had some of that in your Shodokan days?
Michael J Martin (04:21.87)
Sure the shirt on training that I had was not There wasn't a whole lot of talking about what's going on in on the inside or cheap or anything like that and And dare I say when you first start and you're a young guy Yeah, that internal stuff
really don't think you need it when you start. You need to learn how to fight. You know, if martial arts is what you want to do, you've got to develop the martial skills. And I think from my perspective when I started in Shotokan, the Shotokan school I started in, I thought they did an excellent job of instilling the fundamentals, instilling fighting spirit.
which is essential for any art. So I got a lot out of my Shotokon training.
But then I got to a point where there's, I see all these guys doing all these amazing things and I don't understand how to get there. So when I found this shell in school and the teacher was willing to help me make the next step and part of his training was,
There was a Tai Chi component, that's where I got introduced seriously to Tai Chi along with the Shaolin.
Michael J Martin (06:04.182)
And then when I got out of the Air Force and I kind of moved back home and I wanted to continue my training, I was looking for a school that would continue me on that path of martial excellence, as well as an understanding of the interim. And I got fortunate and I found Boknam Park.
was teaching bagua at a school in Baltimore.
And to me, when I went to go look at the Bava school, that to me was just a continuation of the education that I had started in the Shodokan, then went to the Shaolin, and then I went to the Bava. It's like, oh, well, this is the next step. It wasn't like I'm forgetting what I was taught before, but this is the next step in the path.
Jeremy (06:58.905)
Yeah.
Michael J Martin (07:05.956)
And like we were talking about Victor earlier and Victor has a
Michael J Martin (07:12.962)
huge background in Japanese arts. And he's kind of training with me as the continuation of what he's already been taught. And that's how I approach that when I teach folks like Victor, guys who have had 20, 25 years of previous training. My job is not to come in there and go, well, what you were taught is total crap, so we gotta get rid of all that.
Now I'm like, well, you got a solid foundation. So we're going to take that foundation and we're going to build on it. I'm not, I'm not here to.
Michael J Martin (07:56.086)
rewrite your history. I'm here to help you further down the path. And that's why.
Michael J Martin (08:04.63)
guys go. Well, what is, what does your system look like? Well, a lot of it just depends on where you're coming from. If, um...
If you have no previous training, I have a whole system to put the fundamentals into you to teach you linear concepts, teach you angles, and then to teach you circles. However, if you come to me and you've got 10, 15, 20 years of linear hard style, well, I don't...
Jeremy (08:22.948)
Hmm.
Michael J Martin (08:41.726)
I don't need to reinvent the wheel. You've got a perfectly good wheel. We're going to pick up and go from where you're at. And that's how I like to teach. Now I know some traditional folks who, they don't like that. If you're training with me, you're going to train what I'm teaching. Well, yeah. Yeah.
Jeremy (08:42.476)
You don't need to do that. Yeah, that makes sense.
Jeremy (08:53.415)
I like that.
Jeremy (09:04.608)
Well, let's talk about that for a moment, because one of the things I've come to believe through the conversations that I have on this show, and when I came out of college, I had a school of my own for a couple of years, and then just due to professional concerns, starting a business, closed it, reopened, shouldn't say reopened, but opened a school for a second time six months ago, not even.
And in that 20-year gap, my understanding of the role of a teacher has changed dramatically. My goal is to help my students progress as effectively and rapidly as possible.
Michael J Martin (09:51.809)
Exactly.
Jeremy (09:52.78)
So if they already understand a concept...
why am I going to beat that horse when they get it? Maybe they have, maybe they, you know what, maybe it's only 95% of the way that I want it to be. Well, we can refine that while we do other things instead of I want you to throw out everything you know and make them feel badly about that, risk losing them. And then I can't help them progress at all.
Michael J Martin (10:22.63)
Exactly. You know, and with a very few rare exceptions, many of the folks that have come to me from other schools, their fundamentals are reasonably sound. And the
Jeremy (10:32.432)
There's always exceptions.
Michael J Martin (10:51.042)
The adjustments that I would have them do are generally, they self adjust after they've been sparring with us a while. You know, I...
I explain.
why we do what we do from our perspective. But I don't go, and you must do it that way. I said, this is why we do it. But you know, I understand why you're doing what you're doing as well.
And as time goes on, if you can make what you're doing work, I'm fine with that. You may find, however, that the reason we're doing what we're doing also has legitimacy. And you may want to take a look at that. After you've been kicked in the groin a few times, you know.
Jeremy (11:49.424)
I like to use professional sports metaphors where I can, because I think when people are chasing that kind of money, it's reasonable to assume that they're gonna do the things that work best, right? A lot of us exist in the martial arts, exist in this world where it's theoretical. If we do our jobs well, we're not actually fighting people.
Michael J Martin (12:10.154)
A lot of it.
Jeremy (12:16.364)
So it all becomes some kind of compromise. But a basketball player, they become the best in the world. They're playing a lot of basketball. So, but if we look at the best players in the world, current, historical, not even gonna name names because we don't need to get potentially sidetracked in that debate, maybe I shouldn't have picked basketball. Everyone's shot looks a little bit different. If you're a great coach,
and you get somebody, some high-end recruit at a college or even high school, and you look at them and you're like, the shot is not great, it's ugly, but it works for them? Why would you change that? Unless the long-term benefit is worthwhile when they go through that awful relearning process, which it usually isn't if they've gotten to that point, I don't see the value. And it sounds like that's what you're saying.
Michael J Martin (12:59.022)
Exactly.
Michael J Martin (13:15.294)
Yeah, and one of the things that I tell my students, especially my senior students, I am not trying to make you look like me. I'm trying to make you the best you, you can be. And I, and then when my senior students get together, I say, you guys see each other train, and every last one of you knows that none of you move the same.
And, and there are lots of different reasons for that. I mean, different body types, different injuries. I have some retired army guys. I have some guys who are about to retire out of the army. And, um, and my son who just got out of the army, the army does bad things to your body. And everybody I, I trained that's been in the army has some sort of injury. So we make adjustments for that, but they all.
Move well.
Michael J Martin (14:21.418)
and they are all functional in terms of applying it. Does it look like mine? No, some of them actually look better. And that, I'm great with that. But even when it comes to that, my goal is not so much to make forms champions. My goal is to make guys who can apply the movements.
functional. They know what that movement is for and they know how to apply it. They also know how to adjust that movement when they get attacked wrong. One of my teacher's favorite sayings is what are you going to do when they attack you wrong?
Uh, we have to learn to adjust. Um, so that, that's what I'm trying to get my guys to do. We, we, um, I will teach you the principles because that was an art of principles. It's not necessarily, uh, an art of techniques. One of the back when the Bagua journal was, was being published.
one of the classic lines from the journal was, how many different styles of Bagua are there? There are many different styles of Bagua as there are people teaching Bagua. And that's mainly because adjustments were readily made based on the individual's body type, their previous training, all that sorts of stuff. And Bagua is an art of principles. It's not...
Did you execute that technique exactly the way I did or do you understand what you're doing there? If you understand what you're doing with the technique, it becomes much easier to make adjustments to make it functional.
Michael J Martin (16:20.979)
And that's my goal with my...
Jeremy (16:23.352)
That makes sense. So I want to rewind because, you know, especially if we look at the contrast of these sort of bookend things, you know, Bagua being principles, and you said something in there, and I want to preface this for the audience, in no way am I disparaging Shotokan. I trained Shotokan, or Nebrahm, Shotokan. Very proud of that and think back very fondly of that time. One of the criticisms that I have heard levied at
not necessarily specific schools, but Shotokan broadly is that quite often the goal is to make everyone look the same.
Michael J Martin (17:02.846)
And well, my first, my Shodokan teacher, he, he told me that that's what impressed him about the Shodokan school. Everybody was the same. And I'm like, now, and from a military background, which he was, he, he was retired army drill instructor. So that human deformity, I mean, that appealed to him greatly. And dare I say.
Jeremy (17:18.028)
Yes.
Jeremy (17:24.505)
Mm-hmm.
Michael J Martin (17:31.838)
in the beginning that is not necessarily wholly a bad thing.
Jeremy (17:38.956)
I agree.
Michael J Martin (17:43.49)
But it should not be a place where you stay. And even in the realms of Shodokan.
There are various Shotokan organizations that have...
Michael J Martin (18:03.626)
Well, I don't want to say they've abandoned Shuttercop, but they put their own spin on it. And perfectly legit. I have no problem with that. I think that's how any art continues to grow and evolve.
Jeremy (18:20.282)
It can't otherwise.
Michael J Martin (18:21.698)
Right. So, yes. So the.
Jeremy (18:23.956)
Even Funakoshi knew that. He wrote it down.
Michael J Martin (18:31.114)
I think the thing with the difference between say something like Chodokan and Babel would be...
You got a lot more room to play in Bawah than you do in Shotokan. But there is some wiggle room in Shotokan once you get to a certain level. Whereas in Bawah, there's a lot more wiggle room and it's a lot earlier on.
Michael J Martin (19:08.182)
But that's also why there are so many different kinds of bars. And what I mean by that is, um, I, um, when I was gone from my, uh, instructor certification at the police academy, one of the things we had to do was we had to do a 10 minute presentation. My presentation was on the principles of combat from a, from an internal perspective.
I had a gentleman come up to me afterwards and go, that was a cool presentation, but I could never do any of that. And I'm like, and I, and having gone, and I was in school with this guy for about two weeks and got to know him reasonably well, personality wise, and I said, I know, I understand. And, and what, every art has its own personality.
and it has and that personality attracts different types of students. Now that does not necessarily mean that art is wrong or bad or those students are wrong or bad. They're doing what appeals to them and it's functional for them.
Jeremy (20:19.129)
Mm-hmm.
Michael J Martin (20:26.596)
And I tell my Bagua students
Michael J Martin (20:32.622)
when they ask about things like Tai Chi or Xing Yi or some of the other Chinese arts. I was like, they're all fine. It has to do with what appeals to you. BaGua appeals to me. I like the way it moves. I like the results it gets in my body.
but that does not mean it's the only way to do things. There are people who prefer Tai Chi. There are people who prefer Xingyi. And I pick on those two because my second Ba-wa teacher, his favorite saying was, the principles are all the same, Tai Chi, Ba-wa, Xingyi doesn't matter. It's the expression of those principles that determines the art. Okay, fine.
Me personally, I kind of agree with that. But when you look at that different expression.
Xingyi does not look like Tai Chi. Tai Chi does not look like Bagua. But still the same concepts are in there. Now what does that mean? Well, there's a lot of variety there to express those same principles. And that's based on the individual. I'm not gonna say that, you know, well, Tai Chi doesn't work because it doesn't do the Bagua way. But in the same concept,
Jeremy (21:36.304)
Hmm
Jeremy (21:42.02)
Come here.
Michael J Martin (22:05.81)
I like to watch videos of other arts because as I've gotten older, I figured out that that's how I'm going to learn how to pull more stuff out of what I already do, is by watching people do their stuff.
Jeremy (22:20.512)
It's almost like cross-training is a wonderful way to progress in your own stuff.
Michael J Martin (22:24.854)
Yeah, yeah. And I watch these guys who've been doing their arts for decades and they are obviously well practiced and very strong. But then I look at how they're moving and I'm going, well, that's, I mean, it's working great for them, but that is not how I want to move. And at a certain point, I think, especially if you're gonna continue on.
Michael J Martin (22:57.486)
You're not just trying to get a black belt, but you're making martial arts a life path. At some point you have to pick a path so that you can go in depth into that path. That doesn't mean other paths are wrong or bad. It means you've got to pick one that you like and explore its depths. It also doesn't mean that I can't appreciate.
somebody else who took their path and explored it to its depths.
Michael J Martin (23:34.242)
But when I look at those guys, they're very good. They put a lot of time and effort into it. That's awesome, but that's not how I want to move.
Michael J Martin (23:49.162)
And I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Because I can appreciate the time and effort, their kung fu. Right. And I'm not gonna say that what they're doing is not effective for them. Why? Because they put the time and effort into making that work. One of the things that I have over the years learned to...
Jeremy (23:57.4)
Yeah. The art, you can appreciate the art in their martial arts.
Michael J Martin (24:18.99)
shy away from is when somebody said, oh, that technique won't work in real combat. Well, one of the things I've learned from having mistakenly said that kind of thing and then gotten hit with those techniques that don't work in real combat is if you put the time and effort in...
and you practice it.
You there's a lot of stuff that can be made effective if you put the time and effort in now there's a bunch of stuff That I have not put the time and effort in That I would never attempt in a real situation. That does not mean it won't work It just means I have not put the time and effort in you know, everybody
Jeremy (25:06.768)
What I hear when someone says that is one of two things. I'm not willing to put in the time and effort to make it work. Or more likely, I don't actually understand that technique when it would be useful, how frequently it would be used. And so instead of me wrapping my head around not understanding something, because that might make me feel badly about myself, I'm just gonna dismiss it.
Michael J Martin (25:33.719)
Yeah
Jeremy (25:35.596)
when someone else does it. Usually done by people who have trained between zero and some short amount of time, usually on social media.
Michael J Martin (25:46.17)
Oh, absolutely. You know, but, um, and I hope I don't step on any toes here. I have, I have found that the worst offenders for, for those kind of statements are, um, guys who've been training between 10 and 15 years. And the reason for that is they've been training long enough to get. Good at what.
Jeremy (25:52.024)
Toe step away.
Michael J Martin (26:15.246)
they do, but they haven't really looked out into the larger community.
Jeremy (26:21.964)
Yeah, that was the part I was gonna add on if you didn't, the idea that they probably have experience in one school, one system, one style, whatever it may be, and they haven't cross-trained. They have, you know, so within their sparring rules, because let's face it, unless you have full combat and people are dying in your school, which if they are, don't go to that school, but assuming that people are not dying, these are not completely open rules. And whatever the rules are, whether they are...
Structured codified we do this we do not do that or it's cultural You know a good example that might be The two of you can determine how hard you go as long as you're on the same page, right? So you might have two people that go a little lighter than others, right? Those rules dictate how people move and If the rules change the movements can change
Michael J Martin (27:16.818)
Exactly. So I...
Michael J Martin (27:23.494)
I'll share this story about myself because one I think it's funny and two it's extremely embarrassing
Jeremy (27:29.58)
Ha!
You got me hooked.
Michael J Martin (27:34.591)
Are you familiar with the Kung Fu Butterfly Kick? Okay. Well, for years, I just...
Jeremy (27:40.25)
Yes.
Jeremy (27:46.168)
I've hurt my back several times trying to learn this thing.
Michael J Martin (27:50.822)
For years, I just assumed that, well, that's a training kick. You're not ever actually gonna use that when you fight because it looks extremely impractical.
Um, now I will also say this. I have not put the time and effort into making the butterfly kick a practical kick for me. I did however, have a student who loved that thing and, uh, we're sparring one day and he throws that first leg up on the butterfly kick and I go to block it. And the next thing I know, here comes the, the next kick. And I'm thinking.
Anybody can get lucky right? That's beginner's luck one-time shot But that's pretty good making that butterfly kick work We keep sparring he hit me with that thing three more times Because he had put the time and effort into it and the other thing that I've noticed over the years is
Michael J Martin (28:59.51)
it's much easier to hit somebody with something they've never seen before. And that butterfly kick, that was not something that we normally did in our sparring. Why? Because it's not a practical fighting kick. Worked that time. Yeah. So what I've learned is
Jeremy (29:17.293)
Hmm?
and the other three.
Michael J Martin (29:29.774)
You know, one of the things that I think is funny to me, especially when I hear people talk about how babua doesn't work in or circle walking doesn't work in real combat is it's worked multiple times for me in real combat and primarily because if I'm sparring somebody who's never seen that before, I always get the same reaction. They stop and watch it.
and it gives me plenty of time to maneuver in a position. Now, I have also seen that happen multiple other occasions where somebody is throwing a technique the other person had never seen before. Your brain stops and goes, what is that? And people will stand there and watch you throw a technique that they've never seen before. Now, generally only works one time.
But it only needs to work one time. So, um...
Michael J Martin (30:38.634)
This is why I try to get my guys to understand what you really need to do your research and see what's out there. It's because it's the stuff that you've never seen before that's going to hit you. And to be honest with you, they don't even actually have to do it really, really well. I mean, they got to be able to pull it off, but they don't have to be Bruce Lee with it because your brain is going to go...
stop and go, what was that? And while you're doing that, you're getting hit with it. I've seen it over and over and over again, not just in my school, but other places as well. So, usually folks get caught with novelty techniques, stuff that they've never seen before. Very few people are surprised.
by a reverse punch, a side kick, a round kick. I mean, I'm not saying that stuff doesn't work, but they're not surprised. I mean, they're trying to put a defense up for it. When you throw something they've never seen before, there's gonna be that almost, they stop, because they're watching what you're doing, trying to figure it out.
To me, that's kind of the beauty of Baba. And what I mean by that is, it's not that, oh, Baba is so much better than everybody else. It's just we're doing stuff so differently than everybody else. We're doing the same stuff. We're just doing it slightly different. It causes that moment of hesitation in a lot of people.
Jeremy (32:13.348)
Hmm
Jeremy (32:23.192)
So if Bagua caught on, you wouldn't have that.
Michael J Martin (32:25.822)
Yeah, well, my first Bagua teacher used to say, Bagua to Bagua, very difficult.
Michael J Martin (32:35.614)
And what he meant by that was because both guys know what the other guy's doing. It's when, when you don't know what the other guy's doing that things get a little, a little bit easier or, um, for you. If he doesn't know what you're doing, it gets easier for you.
But when, let's go back to Shotokan. When both guys are using basically the same straight in hard charging forward tactics, it's not that doesn't work, but when both guys are doing it, it gets harder. Hey. But if only one of them's doing that and somebody else is doing something else and they've never seen that straight in hard charging, well, that can catch you off guard.
Jeremy (33:03.501)
No.
Jeremy (33:19.536)
Hmm.
Jeremy (33:25.552)
When I was a kid, as you might imagine, most of us sparred roughly the same. And I got to be probably 13, 14, and I said, I know there are other ways to do this. So I said, well, how would a boxer spar? And so I just kind of do that. Or what would my version at the time being 14 with no training, what would a kung fu practitioner do? And I started to just kind of play with that. And my fellow students were going,
What are you doing? I don't know what to do, right? It was the same techniques just done in a different angle. Instead of facing sideways, I faced forward. Or instead of focusing on my feet, I focused on my hands. And it just threw everybody off because everybody got into a cadence of the five techniques that they all used over and over and over.
Michael J Martin (34:16.222)
Exactly. And that's everybody's problem. I'm not throwing stones at the Shurta Khan house. That's everybody's problem. We get used to what we do.
Jeremy (34:24.04)
Yeah, I agree.
Michael J Martin (34:38.666)
And my second teacher in Bible, he used to say, research is ongoing.
I love that.
Michael J Martin (34:52.782)
hugely because not only does it make me
Michael J Martin (34:58.934)
go into the depths of the art of Bagua itself, but it also makes me go outside of the art to see what everybody else is doing because...
Michael J Martin (35:14.166)
And I tell my guys this all the time, I'm truly not really interested in learning, especially at this point in my life, another martial art, but I have to know what those other arts are doing so I can at least, if I'm confronted with that, put up a good fight.
I don't want to get caught completely off guard by something I've never seen before. Now that doesn't mean they're not good at what they do, but I want to make it very, very difficult for them to do it well against me. So that...
Jeremy (35:48.26)
Right, right. I'm with ya.
Jeremy (35:53.692)
Can we go back? There's a question I didn't ask you that I'd like to ask and that's why did you start?
Michael J Martin (36:00.906)
in martial arts.
Jeremy (36:01.761)
Yeah!
Michael J Martin (36:04.137)
Oh!
Well, I think I probably started for the same reason that a lot of other guys started.
Michael J Martin (36:18.794)
And I also tell my students, do not follow my example. Ha ha ha.
Jeremy (36:22.468)
Okay.
Michael J Martin (36:29.265)
I was picked on and bullied as a small child and
Michael J Martin (36:39.826)
I took my first martial arts class. I found that I had...
Michael J Martin (36:49.458)
I don't want to say talent but a deep love for martial arts. Now I will also say this once the bullied little kid finds out that he's got some skills you must pay very close attention that you do not become the bully.
Michael J Martin (37:17.774)
didn't do that. And I am grateful to my first teacher that he didn't boot me out on my ear. But.
Michael J Martin (37:38.386)
It took me a while to figure out that.
Michael J Martin (37:47.675)
I can't be what I started martial arts to defend myself against. And I'm not saying I was as bad as some of my bullies, but I will say this. I was not interested in backing down if someone chose to test me.
Jeremy (38:11.876)
How old were you?
Michael J Martin (38:15.11)
as I got older and wiser and you know especially when you start doing full contact training and you realize that getting hit hurts. Well one of the things that I and this is why I think everybody who is physically capable should do at least six months of full contact training.
Jeremy (38:31.669)
does.
Michael J Martin (38:43.335)
I'm not saying you have to go fight, but you should do the training because it teaches you a bunch of things about yourself.
One, which I think is extremely important is you realize, yeah, getting hit hurts, but it's not gonna stop you. You learn how to take a shot and keep going. And for real self-defense, you need to know that you can do that. And I think full contact training will do that for you.
Michael J Martin (39:17.366)
but it also makes you realize.
Michael J Martin (39:25.074)
you're not as quick to jump into it.
for two reasons. You learn it's not as easy to hit somebody solidly as your one steps would lead you to believe.
And two, if they do manage to land one solid on you, that's not fun. And if they land it really, really well, you may not be recovering. So...
Michael J Martin (40:02.038)
Personally, I think that even if you never climb into the ring, I think during the training for at least six months is extremely important. It's going to teach you those things. It's going to teach you fighting spirit, which, and this is one of the things that I have observed over the years.
Michael J Martin (40:27.174)
see people who do internal martial arts, especially Bagua and Tai Chi.
Michael J Martin (40:35.462)
if you've never had any serious sparring experience.
Michael J Martin (40:45.358)
you're not going to be able to utilize Tai Chi or Baguag in a real event because you have no fighting spirit.
Jeremy (40:49.68)
Hmm
Michael J Martin (41:00.502)
You have to be able to bridge that gap and take their center and know that you can do it. Well, the only way you can know that is if you've done it lots and lots of times through sparring. One stuff ain't gonna cut it. Push hands ain't gonna cut it. Sticky hands isn't gonna cut it. You have to be able to say, I can get in there and get this done.
Jeremy (41:14.276)
Hmm.
Michael J Martin (41:31.518)
The thing about Tai Chi and Bada, Yin and Shin Yi is You are going in you're not standing out at range and trying to attack from long range distance You're going into their center and you're taking their center We have to know how to do that effectively And any way you can learn how to do that effectively is through lots and lots of sparring Which is in my opinion one of the
the major flaws in modern internal martial arts training. Now, I leave Xing Yi out in that equation because a lot of Xing Yi schools, they spar a lot and they spar hard.
They have not yet been touched by the new age wand.
Jeremy (42:25.844)
It's fascinating, yeah. Everyone knows Tai Chi. If you go ask 100 people over the age of 15, 20, what Tai Chi is, they're all gonna have a roughly similar description, unless they've ended up at one of those very rare schools that keep the combative elements in it. We've had several of those folks on this show, and it's utterly fascinating to me how close
their interpretation, their expression of Tai Chi is to any other style of martial arts, as opposed to the public understanding of it's a really slow one-person dance that old people do in the park for help.
Michael J Martin (43:13.694)
Yeah, yeah, I mean it well I'm glad to hear that um that there are more people out there like who think like that um but you'd be amazed how many people think that um we're the ones who don't know what Tai Chi is all about because we want to fight with it.
Jeremy (43:37.24)
Well, you know, many of them come from a lineage of 47 generations, and they can have 47 generations because they earned their instructor certification in six to 12 months of training, and they got the fundamentals, and no one told them that there was more.
Jeremy (43:59.496)
I have never been more suitably handed my own butt so succinctly than by a Tai Chi practitioner.
Michael J Martin (44:08.067)
Yeah.
Jeremy (44:08.716)
And I've been kicked in the head by Bill Wallace on multiple occasions. And this person I'm thinking of his name's Aaron, some of the folks listening who are local in Vermont know who I'm talking about. It's a phenomenal practitioner. And I have never been so handily and gently dominated in, in a split second.
Michael J Martin (44:31.542)
Yeah. Now, and...
Michael J Martin (44:37.846)
And this is what I think a lot of times, the reason why...
Even skilled Tai Chi guys, they haven't... It gets to the point where their skill level is such that they don't really need to hurt you to demonstrate their skill level. But then what happens is somebody... Well, I'm not saying it's you, I'm just saying, but that demonstration happens a lot of times because the guy didn't get hurt.
He thinks the Tai Chi guy got lucky. Oh, he just got, and you're like, I have seen, well, my Shaolin Tiger instructor who, um, at the time was also very skilled in Tai Chi. I saw him spar with a dude and he, and my, and my teachers moving at what most people would consider Tai Chi speed.
The other guy is like three quarter speed, can't get my teacher off of him and can't hit it. And a lot of people would look at that and go, oh, that wasn't real, that was fake. Or, boy, and I'm not saying this guy did that, but a lot of people would say if that were to happen to them, oh, well, he just got lucky. That's not real fighting. And you're like.
Michael J Martin (46:15.89)
I watched that stuff and I'm like, you have no idea. You're lucky he was being nice to you. My second teacher, Bagua teacher, who's also extremely skilled in Tai Chi and Bagua, or Shingi as well.
Michael J Martin (46:36.098)
He's a little grumpier. And he was very well known for...
Michael J Martin (46:48.483)
If you said you wanted to come do push hands with him and you got froggy, well he also trained at Joe Frazier's boxing gym.
Michael J Martin (47:01.934)
and he would have no problem dropping you. He told me this one story and I still think it's great. Dude, he teaches free Tai Chi in the park on Saturday mornings.
Dude wanted to come back to his house and do a little push hands, cross arms, compare skills. And my teacher goes, he came back and he just dropped like he was gonna do a deep shove, not Tai Chi push hands, but a deep shove. He says, I just slipped, came across with a hook punch and down he went. He goes, when he came to, the guy goes, well that wasn't push hands.
And my teacher leans over and goes, well, you weren't doing push hands either. I thought we were fighting at that point.
Michael J Martin (47:56.599)
And I think there needs to be more of that in the internal martial arts. Um, one of the things that has been said to me that I, I have no idea where this came from and makes absolutely no sense. And it was, Oh, you know, the, the internal martial arts aren't aggressive. No, I don't know that at all.
Jeremy (48:21.452)
What does that mean? What does the word aggressive mean in the context of martial arts?
Michael J Martin (48:25.091)
Thanks for watching!
One of the reasons why I started training with Sifu Park was when I went and I watched that class, I'd never seen anything so vicious in my entire life. I mean, not that my Shaolin Tiger or my Shotokan was bad, but the stuff I saw happening in that Bagua class, I'm like, who thinks of that stuff? That's just brutal. My second teacher.
Michael J Martin (48:59.051)
I could never figure out why guys would challenge him. Not only because the reputation he had for dropping folks, but when you look at him, he does not look like a 97 pound weakling. He's about 6'2", solid 200 pounds. And he looks like he'd kill you just soon look at you because he doesn't care.
But people insisted on challenging him.
Michael J Martin (49:34.826)
And I'm like, when I started training with my second bioware teacher, I probably about 20 years of martial arts training at that time. I was not the least been interested in challenging him. He one of the scariest dudes I've ever trained with.
Michael J Martin (49:56.706)
not afraid to use it. So this whole, you know, it's a defensive art.
only if you're using it wrong. One of my favorite.
Jeremy (50:16.769)
Or you could make the statement that theoretically they all are.
Michael J Martin (50:21.738)
Well, then it goes back to...
Jeremy (50:23.012)
I think people like to carve off this, you know, some of these Chinese arts as internal arts. And we've had a number of folks on the show before who actually kind of categorically reject that division. But I think that division was made either to justify what I think we can, most of us can kind of agree is very, very basic level Tai Chi in the park or to be disrespectful because they didn't understand.
Michael J Martin (50:54.466)
Well, that whole internal arts division thing can kind of be traced back to the beginning of the 20th century.
Michael J Martin (51:10.306)
there were a handful of internal arts, for lack of a better term, students, who were also aristocrats, scholars, and in general, the martial arts of China was looked at as a blue collar, low class kind of thing.
So these aristocratic scholars are looking for an excuse to justify their training amongst their elitist friends. So they tried to marry the internal martial arts with Taoist concepts.
Jeremy (51:58.06)
I can see that. That makes sense.
Michael J Martin (52:03.074)
And dare I say, they were kind of successful at it.
I run into people all the time, you know, who think that Tai Chi, Bagua and Xingyi were developed in a Daoist monastery somewhere. And we have the history of these arts and none of them, well, technically Bagua touched on a monastery because, excuse me.
They say Deng Haichuan learned Daoist circle walking in the mountains somewhere. But by the time he came to Beijing to teach Ba Gua Zhang...
Michael J Martin (52:54.359)
He was just using that footwork. He wasn't teaching Daoist meditation. That's one of the things that I always find amusing is the spiritual enlightenment aspect of the internal arts.
And you're like, well, you know, the old masters. Well, who are these old masters that you are referring to? Are you referring to Yang Lutong? Yang the Invincible. Why was he called the Invincible? Because he defeated all commerce, not because I had, as I saw an article, because he was so healthy that, you know, people make up stuff to make themselves feel better about.
what they're doing.
Jeremy (53:44.863)
We all must remain the hero in our own story.
Michael J Martin (53:48.566)
You know, I don't get it with Bago is because we know Dung Hai Chuan.
Michael J Martin (53:59.874)
founded the art. We also know Dung Hai Chuan was also not a spiritually enlightened individual.
because he was described as a vicious fighter and not necessarily the nicest person to be around. And he was a tax collector.
What does that mean? Well, that means...
Michael J Martin (54:31.114)
He was a government thug collecting payments. Also folks who are not known for their spiritual attainment. But everybody go, oh no, he was such an enlightened. No, no, he was not. He was a very, very good fighter. But he was not a spiritually enlightened being.
Jeremy (55:01.048)
Hmm. It's... I see as, you know, and really I think the internet kicked a lot of this off. I think a lot of people are going, oh, these things that I was taught and told, these things that everyone knows maybe aren't as true as everyone knew them to be. And I think that this is one of those areas that, you know, these internal arts, which I think was...
has been taken in an attempt to say soft and ineffective and something that old people do. Because if there's this stuff over here that doesn't apply to me, I don't have to worry about it. I don't have to think about it. I don't have to train in it. I don't have to worry about defending against it. It's over there. And that means I have less I need to worry about and my life is exhausting, right? I think that's the mentality that a lot of people have had.
It's changing and I see that as a beautiful thing because the more stuff there is to train and the more people that are training, the better. Somebody gravitates towards internal arts, if they gravitate towards Bagua or Xinyi, great. If they gravitate towards Shodokan or Ishenru, also great.
Michael J Martin (56:24.19)
And that's my perspective as well. But we all have our pet peeves as we get older. Ha ha ha.
Jeremy (56:34.468)
Yes we do.
Michael J Martin (56:41.579)
I'm just one of these as I because I've been through the
the initial MMA craze and
when...
Michael J Martin (56:58.498)
back in the early 90s when UFC 1, 2, and 3 all kicked off. And I'm watching that stuff and I'm seeing the totally wrong response to what happened there.
Michael J Martin (57:17.974)
What everybody did was, oh, I have to go learn this new thing because my stuff doesn't work against that.
Michael J Martin (57:35.922)
and the appropriate response would have been, I need to train my stuff so that it works against this totally new thing. And nobody did that. So they all went out and they got six months of jujitsu training and then they went back. And then they got their butt handed to them again.
Well, why? Well, let's see. You've been doing it for six months and they've been doing it for 30 years. I wonder, right? The. I think it's coming around.
point I would like to believe this anyway where people are beginning to realize what you know there is joint locks there is throwing there is ground work in my martial art we just ignored it before
But now we have to pay attention to it because there are guys out there who specialize in it.
Michael J Martin (58:48.147)
You have to learn that stuff now, because there are too many people who are good at it. And you have to be at least...
Michael J Martin (59:00.226)
Good enough.
to throw a wrench into their game.
That doesn't mean I'm going to try to be better at their game than they are. I just got to make their game difficult enough for me to get back to a position where my game, I can play my game again.
So I'm hoping that people are starting to see that.
Jeremy (59:28.808)
I think they are. I'm with you. You know, we're at a point now, I think, if you look at the high levels of MMA that there isn't as much differentiation as there was. And so what's setting people apart? It's the quality of their techniques, the quality of their skill. And if we couple that kind of understanding with, you know, there seems to be a bit of a cycle in pro MMA, you know, because if everybody's focused here, well, I'm going to go, you know, I'm going to
Michael J Martin (59:40.491)
Yes.
Jeremy (59:56.12)
Specialized in this piece over here and that helps me stand out, but you do you go around that wheel enough times? The same people end up on top
Michael J Martin (01:00:05.942)
Yeah.
Michael J Martin (01:00:09.57)
So, bye.
Jeremy (01:00:09.826)
If people... Go ahead.
Michael J Martin (01:00:12.398)
Well, like I said, I'm...
Excuse me. I think the old guys... ..
Guys have been training about as long as I have or longer. They've seen it go through all the, who remembers the ninja craze, right? Ha ha ha.
Jeremy (01:00:42.796)
The only, how many of you out there know the name show Kisugi? You know it for one reason. You were alive at a certain period of time and you were into martial arts and you had no choice but to watch ninja films.
Michael J Martin (01:00:47.612)
Me, me, me!
Michael J Martin (01:00:56.874)
Yeah, so and before ninjas it was um, Bruce Lee and Kung Fu Before that it was karate and judo
Michael J Martin (01:01:09.983)
But it's all starting to come around now where I would like to think that it doesn't matter the art that you pick.
because a good teacher is going to make you functional in all of those areas. Because at this point you kind of have to. You can't say, well we don't do that. You should be saying, well this is how we deal with that.
Michael J Martin (01:01:48.03)
And in that regard, I think that was one of the good benefits of the UFC and MMA. It has made people re-examine their art.
take a look at what they've actually been taught and now they are more functional with their art because they have to be so I think that's a good thing.
Jeremy (01:02:15.674)
I agree.
Jeremy (01:02:20.144)
Wholeheartedly agree if people want to get a hold of your website social media you do any of that
Michael J Martin (01:02:25.706)
Um, yes, I do. Um, because now I have to remember my website. Uh, it's a TN who, um, B G Z.com. That that's my website. Um, I'm on Facebook and, uh, my Facebook is, uh, living orders, martial arts on Facebook. Um,
Jeremy (01:02:30.456)
He says reluctantly?
Jeremy (01:02:45.936)
We'll make sure that's in the show notes.
Michael J Martin (01:02:58.999)
Either one of those will have my email if you want to email me and the Facebook page and the website also. I have my phone number if anybody wants to call and ask questions or tell me I'm full of it. You know.
Jeremy (01:03:16.092)
We don't get a lot of hecklers, at least. You know where the hecklers show up? They show up on YouTube and they make very strong, vague claims about the skill or the character of a guest who has been on the show. And...
I will do one of two things. If it was laid out there in a way that maybe they actually do have something to say, you know, as long as they are mildly respectful. Okay, you've made that claim. Now you got to back it up. They're disrespectful. I just I just dump it. And you know what? Almost never do they.
Michael J Martin (01:03:57.166)
Yeah. Well, and that's why I try not to say how awesome I am. Because, you know, I always tell my students, I'm OK. You know, I've been training a long time and for somebody who's been training a long time, I'm OK. I've learned some things that I am more than willing to share with folks who want to learn them.
But at the same token, I'm not going to sit here and tell you I'm the best Bob-Bob guy that ever came down to the pike. And you know, if you don't train with me, you haven't really been taught.
Jeremy (01:04:36.88)
There's a lot of freedom in not claiming to be the best at something, isn't there?
Michael J Martin (01:04:39.434)
Yes! You know, in the...
Jeremy (01:04:42.64)
People have told me you would never make it in the UFC. You're right.
Michael J Martin (01:04:49.761)
Hahaha!
Jeremy (01:04:52.125)
I don't want to be there. I've never asked to be a pro fighter. I've never trained to be one. Never thought I might. Even my mother told me, she's like, you might be, you could probably be okay at that stuff, but you don't like to get hit. She's right, I don't like to get hit.
Michael J Martin (01:05:07.19)
Yeah, I mean, and I don't like it enough to want to be a professional at it. You know, I will get hit, and I've been hit enough to know that I can fight through that, but I don't want that to happen again on a regular basis. So, I like being okay. You know, I'm...
Jeremy (01:05:24.481)
It is not enjoyable.
Michael J Martin (01:05:35.846)
And I'm also, even at this point, I'm very open to...
Michael J Martin (01:05:43.534)
hearing somebody else's approach to what I do.
Michael J Martin (01:05:52.674)
And I don't you know somebody while I'm open to correction well I look at it like this. You know I know what I do and why I do it But I'm willing to hear What you do and why you do it now if I like what you're doing and why you're doing it better than what I'm doing Well somehow it will become mine but But I'm also not
Jeremy (01:06:16.053)
as it should.
Michael J Martin (01:06:21.738)
If you have a legit, well this is why we do this. Okay, I mean I may not necessarily totally agree with that, but you got a reason. And as long as you have a reason, one of the things I tell my students is, you never ever, somebody asked you a question about what we teach, if your answer is because Sifu said, I will personally beat you myself. You must know why we're doing.
Jeremy (01:06:48.513)
I love that rule.
Michael J Martin (01:06:51.094)
what we're doing. That's the only way it's going to be functional for you.
Jeremy (01:06:57.7)
Great. It's important. I've said many, many times on this show. The most important question is why if you do not ask why you are doing something, why you are training, why you train the way that you do, why you train where you are, you will not get the full benefits that line up with what you want out of martial arts and life. It's, it's a question that gets beaten out of us, hopefully not physically, very early. And I think it's really a shame.
Michael J Martin (01:06:58.027)
So.
Michael J Martin (01:07:23.47)
And unfortunately that was that old school way of training. Don't ask questions, just do. And that is why it would take guys 20 years to get good. But if you know why you're doing what you're doing, it doesn't take 20 years to get good at it. And my goal is for my students not to take 20 years to get good.
Jeremy (01:07:51.612)
I am right there with you. We're gonna start to wrap here in a minute. I'm gonna ask you to close us up with, you know, your final thoughts to the audience. But for the audience, you know, thank you for being here, for watching, for listening, for hearing the good stuff from Sifu. This has been a lot of fun. I appreciate your time. So head on over to whistlekick.com. Go to whis Check out the show notes. Yes, your podcast player or YouTube, there's some of the show notes, but it doesn't get all of it.
whis is where we're gonna have all of it. So please go ahead, do that. Check out Cifu's Facebook page. Call him and tell him he's wrong. But only if you actually think so. Or, you know, maybe that would be a fun way to call him. I heard you on Whistlekick and you're wrong. And maybe that would be a great way to start a conversation.
Michael J Martin (01:08:32.626)
Hahaha!
Jeremy (01:08:49.752)
But how do you want to close things up today? You know, what are your words to the audience?
Michael J Martin (01:08:55.063)
I think what...
What I'd like folks to take away from this is...
Michael J Martin (01:09:04.45)
Kind of what we touched there on the end. Know why.
Michael J Martin (01:09:15.51)
That way you can make a decision on whether or not you want to keep doing it. And In terms of the art you're doing Or the technique if you don't know why you're doing the technique that you're doing or what it's for It's not helping And a good teacher will not have a problem telling you why
———————————————-
Michael J Martin (01:12:56.53)
we teach because we're trying to get that.
Michael J Martin (01:13:26.23)
This is the common root. Everybody can see the common root, but you can also see the diversity in what folks do. And I think that's one of the beauties of this kind of.
It's not about the style, it's about the sharing of knowledge.
Michael J Martin (01:13:53.694)
And when folks are more interested in helping other folks get better, regardless of their style.
I think everybody benefits from that.