Show Transcript
Jeremy (00:01.57)
What's happening, everybody? Welcome. You're tuned in to another episode of Whistlekick, Marshall Arts Radio, and on today's show, Andrew and I are tackling the question, the controversial question, the pot-stirring subject of should age be a factor?
in rank. Hmm. Could get messy. Could get, well, I mean, not with us. We're pretty close on all, we might have some differences on this. For those of you out there, if this is your first episode, maybe someone introduced you to the show via this episode, please check out all the things that we do. We have whistlekick.com, which is our online home. Everything that we do is referenced there, but you also have whistlekickmartialartsradio.com.
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The lot of you, the traditional martial artists of the world, and thank you for your continued support. And please do continue to support because, well, things cost money. Yes. All right, Andrew. So this came up, I asked you, I said, have we ever done an episode about Junior Blackbelts? And you said, yes. And I went, oh, okay. Because I really wanted to talk about this subject. And...
We took a step back and we talked about how we might talk about this. And it is a question that goes broader than simply the, when should someone be eligible for a black belt in a school? Yep. Yeah. Um, so we had done an episode on junior black belts. It was a number of years ago. It was actually one of the first episodes we recorded when I was co-host. Um, and the only way, the only reason I remember that is I remember
Jeremy (02:55.394)
being nervous, leading up to recording with you. We recorded in the- That has changed. Yeah, we recorded in the- Oh, we're in the warehouse. Up in the warehouse. And I remember prior to us getting together, I had sent you the list of ideas because you didn't know me well enough then to trust me to be like, we're doing this. Whereas now, I sit down and like, okay, we're gonna record this, and this, and we'll talk about it a little bit, but.
And so you said, yeah, let's do an episode on that. And I remember calling two or three martial artists that have been influential in my life ahead of time and asking them, hey, what are your thoughts on Junior Black Belt's? Because I wasn't comfortable being able to come up with my own words. And that's not to say if you listen to that episode, I'm not, those weren't my feelings.
But I was just interested in hearing other people's thoughts ahead of time. There's a skill in doing this that folks might not realize that you've gotten very good at from doing it. Yep. Many, many times. And so that's the only reason why I vividly remember we definitely did an episode on it.
Yeah. It's a subject that keeps coming up. It will probably always come up.
And I think it's important that we talk about why and why we're formatting the question this time a little bit differently, because even though we've gone into the subject before and we've talked about it in bits in a number of episodes over the years, the inherent question is really as we're phrasing it today, should age be a factor? Does it play a part?
Jeremy (04:42.474)
Well, there are plenty of examples where some schools say it does, and it's not just junior black belt. We only teach people of this age or older. Oh, sure. Okay. So before you can even become a student, before you can even become or earn a white belt depending on how your school does it, you have to be of a certain age.
For whatever reasons. The reasons almost don't matter in that case. There are two main ones. The things I wanna teach don't work for people younger than a certain age, or I don't know how to teach people below a certain age. Or want to. Know how to or want to. It's an important distinction, yes.
as we move forward.
It is rare that I have seen junior anything ranks up into black belt. Yep. That's a good point. And.
Jeremy (05:41.762)
that happen? Well, I do know of one school that does that if you are say 10 years old and you get your yellow belt that they are very clear that that's not an adult yellow belt. What's the difference? I don't feel confident enough saying the distinction, but they taught a course, they
Jeremy (06:11.198)
to black belt and you know one of the things that you know she made it very clear that You know you once you leave the kids program and go to the regular, you know I'm picking my words carefully because I don't want it to sound like this is exactly how they do it This is what i'm remembering um, but when like the you know, six-year-old Graduates and becomes 10 years old and goes into the next program. They have a different
I believe they have a different set of belts that they then start in. And so just because you're a yellow belt in the 10-year-old class does not mean you're a yellow belt in the adult class. When you then become that 14, 15, 16, whatever age they do the adult at, you may have been a brown belt in the kids program, but now you're an adult in the adult program, that brown belt is an equivalent to...
green dot or whatever it is. So it wasn't a straight one to one. So that's interesting and I think it could.
Jeremy (07:22.078)
I think you could make the argument, well, if a junior brown belt in that case, assuming that what you're saying is what was happening. Whether or not that's the accuracy of the exit of the... It might not be exact, but we can run with it as an example. An example, sure. It could be a hypothetical. If the junior brown belt is equivalent to the adult green belt, why not just make the child a green belt? What's the advantage? I think, playing devil's advocate.
Advantage is if they're a junior brown belt, they've probably been there X number of years I'm going to randomly pick a number five. They've been there five years They've got their junior brown belt if they were really a green belt, which let's say is only two or three ranks in the adult program They've been there for five years And have gotten rewarded Two or three times
So, and this is what I believe it always comes down to, using rank as motivation. Sure, and for kids, I see the value in that. Because kids, and I've worked with kids my whole life, I'm not gonna say they need that, but they much of the time see that as something that is a motivator, that it is something that they can work towards. Sure.
Is that the only and I think more importantly best way to keep them motivated and I would suggest it is not I don't know that it's the best. I think I think it can be a very good motivation Um, I think done well uh This is gonna sound really bad It don't mean it to sound as bad as it's going to sound having students
don't even want to use the word pit them against each other as motivation because I don't want I don't ever want students to feel pitted against each other but healthy competition amongst their peers is one of the best motivators. And it's entirely natural stratification within a social group is a very natural thing you can't shut it off. And as an instructor and I'm thinking for me I've dealt with this more in the drumming world than I have the martial art world but
Jeremy (09:48.122)
Harnessing that and controlling that has been one of the best motivators. But having that goal of if you continue to work hard, you're gonna get upgraded in your drumming from this level to this level is a big motivation for a lot of kids. Is there a separate system for kids versus adults in drumming? Yes.
And no, in the lowest grade, it is split between under 18 and over 18. But once you get out of that grade, it's all together. Okay. So we could call it like a junior yellow, adult yellow. Yep. Kind of. I feel very strongly that in the majority of schools where rank is implemented, and that is the majority of schools, then in the majority of schools.
Rank is used as a motivator because little to no attention has been paid towards forming a culture and an instruction methodology that keeps people motivated outside of rank. Yeah, I could get behind that statement. Here's the proof. How many times have we heard as an industry...
I'm really frustrated when my students earn black belt and then quit. That is an example of a school where that happens. If you find that a lot of your students earn black belt and then quit is because you have used black belt as you've used that as a carrot. You've used it as the primary motivator. You have told them that the standard is to earn this thing and then the unspoken part is once you've earned that thing, you're done, right?
What's the other way to do it? Well, it's the way to do it in most things that have In in most systems right in the world right if you if I ask you Which of your friends are better cooks than others? You know who those are. They're not ranked. Yeah, you're right If I ask you Who the best plumber electrician carpenter in your area is?
Jeremy (12:09.554)
Yes, there are apprentice journeymen and everything. Those are more government certifications than anything. You know who those are, or you know the ones that are not very good. They don't need to be ranked. We crave rank because of the social stratification, because that is a thing that is so deeply hardwired into us, and I completely understand it. But it becomes problematic to me when the way it's handled, from what I have seen in most schools,
Junior and adult standards are set more or less the same They're pretty close to the same right to earn your yell about you have to know these techniques in this form Do or nearer purple belt you have to learn these techniques these movements this form whatever right and maybe Maybe the school we expect that the child You know their attention span might not be there quite the same But if we take an 800 foot view
they're being asked to do the same things for those ranks. And then in a lot of schools at Black Belt that changes. I think that's inconsistent and thus, I don't like inconsistency. So when I look at that, I say, okay, why not construct a standard that can be equally applicable? If I'm making a concession for this child,
Jeremy (13:33.574)
Ed is the differentiator of 18 years old, which is arbitrary, right? It's just a number. Why 18 and not 18 and a half? Why not 17? Why not 22? Right. There are plenty of things that exist at certain ages. If you went to rent a car at 24, you probably said, this is unfair. I'm a better driver than most of the people I know who are over 25. If.
You wanted to buy alcohol at age 20 in the United States, and you lamented, look, I grew up, my family has a healthy approach to alcohol, I'm not gonna drink and drive. I just moved here from Europe. Right? Every time you apply an age standard, it is arbitrary. Now that arbitrary standard may be backed up by some data, but it is not universally applicable. So I look at it and I say, is that the best we can do? And my contention is no.
Because here's what I hear. Well, why is it that way? Well, because a child can't defend themselves. And it's important to us that our black belt be able to defend themselves. That's the number one reason I've heard. Even if it's not the majority, maybe you've not heard that. I'm sure you can see where I'm coming from. No, no, absolutely. No, absolutely. Okay. So if that is the standard, if being able to defend oneself appropriately, adequately with a good chance of success,
is important to you for your black belt ranks, then one of two things has to happen in order for that to be what you run with. You are not equally applying your standard or you are telling someone who might have a physical limitation or someone who is older that they will never be a black belt. Yeah. And I think that
inconsistency is inappropriate and lazy because now if someone says yes it is important that happens and no we do not take someone who is in a wheelchair or 87 years old to black belt I'll say great you I don't agree with your standard but you have every right to apply your standard as you see fit in your and that is consistent and I will support that sure but when someone says
Jeremy (15:55.85)
You're 17, you're not 18, I'm not gonna give you a black belt, or an adult black belt, because of your age, when that 17 year old is far more, for this reason, right, for the self-defense reason. The 17 year old is far more capable of defending themselves than the 87 year old, then we have a problem. Yeah, yeah, I see that, I absolutely do see that. I don't know that I have a response.
other than I agree with what you're saying. I think it is arbitrary. And you went to the extreme, the 87 year old, it could be a 45 year old who's incredibly obese and overweight or it is in a wheelchair or has a prosthetic leg or whatever, like blind. Yeah, the 17 year old could very well defend themselves better.
I totally get it. Yep, me too. Now there's another, there's a softer version of this defense that I've heard and it's not about their ability to defend themselves, it's about maturity. Okay. Show me how you are evaluating maturity. Yeah, schools typically don't do that. How do you evaluate maturity? Yep. How is maturity part of your curriculum?
I have said many, many times, I do not believe that testing, evaluating, holding people to a certain standard on material or actions or anything that is not part of your curriculum, your school, your teaching methods, I think that is inappropriate. I think, and here's the example that we've used. You never have conditioning segments in your classes, but you expect people to run at a certain pace for a certain rank test. Yeah.
Maybe if you're assigning homework and that starts from day one and you say, I want you to work on your running so you can get them to that point. Sure. We could, we could find, we could connect those dots somewhere. But if you say, I am not awarding this rank because that rank conveys the under my feeling that this person is of a certain maturity level and they are 17 or 12 or four and they don't have that maturity level.
Jeremy (18:14.994)
when they can already perform all of the other stuff, there's a hole in your standard. Yeah, I totally see where you're coming from. That makes a lot of sense. And we just had a student in our school test for their junior, black belt, which by the way, I have chosen not to use the word black belt anymore. I am now because that's what we're discussing, but in our school, I don't say black belt, I say showdown. Showdown.
And this came about from a discussion we had at Marshall Summit by saying black belt, it's the definitive, it sounds that's the end. And Shodan is like, well, what is that? Well, Shodan is the first level and there's multiple levels and it helps, I think it helps to create a culture of understanding that there's more than one level of black belt, right? But I digress. In our school, however, we have a curriculum for kids.
of what they are expected to know, and the curriculum for adults is very different. And so the expectations of, you know, what you need to get your junior, if you look at the listing, the requirements for junior black belt, and the requirements for the adult black belt, they are different. And the expectation is that you get your, the student who got his junior showdown this past weekend, he will have to retest again.
to get his adult showed on. And there were things that he needs to learn between them and- And that makes like, that makes sense to me. I don't like it, but I don't have to like it. But it makes sense because now we're applying the standard appropriately because it's a junior standard with junior curriculum, junior testing, junior, junior versus adult. We've cut a, we've bifurcated this. And that, that is logical to me. I can see that. And I can-
Completely understand that if you're talking about we want to teach let's say self-defense in certain ways and be able to talk about certain scenarios and teach certain defenses That no, maybe you don't want a seven-year-old in the room when you're talking about the realities of Sexual assault violence sure absolutely. Yeah. No, I absolutely agree
Jeremy (20:33.634)
So the question that someone out there might be asking, well, Jeremy, you recently opened a school, what are you doing differently? If this is a thing that bothers you, how are you solving this? Well, first off, I went not just age, but how many of the...
individual differences in who we are, can I account for in my rank standards? Can I accommodate someone who is in a wheelchair without compromising my standard? Can I accommodate someone who is obese? Someone with a prosthetic, someone who is blind?
Can I do all of these things? And I spent a lot of time thinking about that because if you've been along for the ride here, you know that I believe martial arts is for everyone. And if I'm gonna have a school that applies a standard equally and it keeps 20% of the population out, I've done a crap job and I'm not walking the talk. Yep, yep. So one of the things that I did is I said, okay.
we're not gonna have junior ranks versus adult ranks. And we are going to apply standards that everyone can understand at each point. So we talked in a previous episode that we haven't recorded the back half of about how I'm testing my students. And I mentioned that there are some, they're still subjective, but they are moving in the direction of objectivity standards that I'm applying.
So let's take forms. For your yellow belt, you have to be able to do it at level one. What's that? I tell you to do your form and you stumble through it and I can tell what you've done. Level two, now you have to add some speed and some power to it. Show me that you know the form and you can do it well and you've been practicing. And it goes on from there. But can I run that criteria through someone who is
Jeremy (22:50.978)
blind. Yeah, sure. Might I have to modify the way I teach it to them? Yes. Might they have to practice it differently? Yes. But it works. What about a kid versus an adult? Sure. What about someone who's in a wheelchair?
Jeremy (23:10.014)
Again, you might have to modify it, but... I might have to modify it. Now level one becomes pretty simple. Can they demonstrate it? It doesn't say they have to demonstrate it through their own physical movement. Sure. What if someone was confined to a wheelchair and they had very little motion in their hands and legs and they were using one of the sticks? What if I had them, could I have them sketch it out in...
probably slow but real time with a drawing program. Or could they speak it? Sure. Could they describe the movements to me? Yeah. Right? I can at least get them there. Right? And that applies to a lot of things. So is it perfect? No, there is no perfect. Oh yeah, absolutely. Nothing's ever gonna catch a hundred percent. But I would rather that person know that they earned their yellow belt. Yeah. Then...
I gave them a whole separate set of things. Now, just as you talked about junior versus adult, are there schools out there that have separate curriculums for different groups of people? Yes.
I don't, I'm not gonna say that's right or wrong. If that works for you and your students, then I think it is right. Sure, sure, sure. But I don't have enough experience with that to say that you don't need to or should not do that. I simply believe that if you have laid out criteria for someone and they have met that criteria, that they should not be restricted. And let's admit, let's acknowledge it. A junior black belt, a junior whatever, when the only...
Difference is age. If you look at that person, say, if they were 18, we'd give you an adult black belt. If that's the only difference, then you are holding them back. I think that is irresponsible, and I think everyone should consider changing it. Old statement, but I get it. Yeah, I get it. It'll be interesting to see what sort of feedback we get when this episode is released. So we'll just have to wait and see. We shall see. And we do want feedback, right? I think...
Jeremy (25:23.542)
If you're new to this show, you may not realize that we don't sit here to say, this is the right way. We sometimes have strong opinions. This is one of the stronger opinions I've had in quite a while, but we always welcome conversation and discussion. We always welcome feedback and criticism. Now, if you're going to come back and say, you're stupid and I hate you when you're wrong, I'm going to delete that email. But if you can form a counter-argument, if you want to come on the show and,
We're going to make you form the counter argument first, but if you want to debate this, if you want to have a discussion about this, I'm always game for that. Absolutely. Assuming it's going to be done in a respectful manner. That's that's the important part. Are there people who have changed my mind on this show? Yes. The best example I can give right now, the verb that I used to describe how what I do for martial arts, I play. I play karate. I play martial arts.
It's not disrespectful. Well, Ron James makes a lot of money playing basketball. Yeah. Good point. Play is not inherently childish or trivial. And it was years that I resisted that. I was like, and then we had somebody on the show. I wish I remembered who it was. And they very, very articulately explained it. I want to say it was Stephen Watson, but I'm not positive of that. It's certainly something he would say. It's come up.
on a few episodes there. But that's all to say, if you want, I invite you to change my mind. I love having my mind changed. It means I'm learning, I'm developing, I'm getting better. And if nothing else, whether you contact Jeremy or not, you know, like you said, we're not here saying this is the way it is, but if you at least think about it, that's great. If you run through what you do and you say, you know,
I hear what you guys are saying and that just isn't going to work for me because of then do that. Do what works for you. We want you to think as long as you're thinking you're alive and keep doing it. Yeah, I agree. All right. Thanks for coming by. Thanks for indulging this conversation. I hope you found it enjoyable whether you watched or you're listened. Remember we are all over the place. We're in your podcast feed. We're at whistlekick martial arts radio.com. We're on YouTube.
Jeremy (27:45.614)
Spotify, you name it, we're there. If you haven't, please consider rating and reviewing us. If you haven't shared the show, do that. Help people find all the things that we're doing to connect, educate, and entertain the traditional martial artists of the world. As we grow, we all get better. And heck, as we grow as a company, we're turning opportunities and everything back out there for all of you. So, and if you forget that, go back and listen to the.
the things I was pitching in the first few episodes to now. There's a lot more. We've reinvested a hundred, more than a hundred percent of what's come in over the decade. So thank you. Thank you to Andrew. Thank you to all of you. Until next time, train hard, smile, and have a great day.
