Episode 874 - Coach Roland Gutierrez

In today's episode Jeremy sits down with Coach Roland Gutierrez after Free Training Day Pacific Northwest.

Coach Roland Gutierrez - Episode 874

In today’s episode, we are privileged to sit down Coach Roland Gutierrez, an accomplished Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu (BJJ) practitioner, a perpetual student of the art, a former police officer, and a former private military contractor with a unique perspective on self-defense.

Our guest's journey is a fascinating blend of resilience and humility. As a dedicated BJJ instructor, they share the intricacies of teaching this powerful martial art while emphasizing their preference for being a perpetual student. Dive into their experiences on the mats, as they discuss the transformative nature of BJJ and its impact on personal growth.

With a background in law enforcement and military contracts, our guest brings a distinct lens to the conversation, shedding light on the practical applications of martial arts in real-world scenarios. Join us as we explore the balance between teaching and learning, self-defense in the context of a former police officer's experiences, and the continuous evolution that defines a true martial artist.

Show Notes

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Show Transcript

Jeremy (00:00.458)

Hey, what's going on everybody? Welcome to another episode of Whistlekick, a martial arts radio. And on today's episode, I'm joined by coach Roland Gutierrez. We're gonna talk, we're gonna have a great time. This guy's got, I know you've got stories. I can just tell yesterday, just the way, no, there's stuff going on here and I'm pumped that you're here. If you're new to the show, or maybe if you need a reminder, head on over to whistlekickmarshallartsradio.com for the show notes, the transcripts, all the good stuff that we plug into the background to give you more context on each episode.

And if you want to support the work that we do to connect, educate, and entertain the martial artists of the world, go to whistlekick.com, see all the things that we're doing, see the events, sign up for the newsletter, and maybe pick up something in the store and use the code podcast15 to save 50%. Roland, thanks for being here. Thanks for having me. Yeah.

Jeremy (00:51.378)

You said it. I don't know that I would have said it, but you said it. You're a talker. Right? And I could tell that yesterday when you were leading your session. And it wasn't just saying words for not saying words. You, as an instructor, communicate a lot through words in a way that a lot of folks would communicate. They're going to demonstrate. You demonstrated with words. I like to really hit everybody on every medium, right? So, I mean, we've all been to seminars where

you're learning something from a pro fighter, from a pro this, and they're amazing at it, right? And then they go to explain it, you know, and, and maybe, maybe striking's not, not your bag, maybe grappling is not your bag. And then they're sitting there telling you how to do, you know, this certain overhand, right? And instead of using words, they're like, yeah, you just do this. And then, well, I'm trying, it's just not, yeah, I don't do this more. And the, the lack of being able to explain it.

verbally sometimes, you know, it starts adding a disconnect. And with grappling, it's, it's so nice to have the body language and feeling with inputs where that kind of answers a lot of your questions. When you feel it, you go, Whoa, okay. And you're I mean, you know, your mind is going to reverse engineer at the second they feel it, they go, Oh, that's what I want to do. I'm going to do that. So, you know, if you can give a really good explanation, you can, you know, you can explain

with some things that may kind of sit in people's, you know, in the back of their mind a little bit and kind of, oh yeah, that weird little way he said that, you know, like melt like cheese. I'm gonna melt like cheese. Okay. I get it. Like I melt cheese. I know what that is, you know, so I can make my body do that. You know, hopefully those little things stick with them, you know, and it's, you know, when you're sitting down and you're learning from somebody, there's nothing worse than having a dry person with no, no context, no this, you know, I mean, you got to have it. You got to add a little bit of

little bit of color commentary and you got to have, you know, I mean, at least drop some jokes to see if people are listening. Yeah. And I'll admit, you know, I was observing what you were doing. You know, part of my job is to make sure everybody's happy. Right. Yeah. Which is also the upside of that is like, I get to see everything. I don't have to choose which sessions I'm going to. I get to see all of them. I don't get to do really any of them.

Jeremy (03:13.698)

But it was clear from the beginning you were going to be a talker. I was nervous. I was nervous, right? Because most people that talk through a session aren't getting engagement from people. And that was the thing I noticed really quickly was the people in your session were super engaged from your words. And I was like, oh, there's something interesting here. There's something interesting about this. And then watching as you connected those dots with...

admittedly, I think you spent more of your time talking than they were doing, which initially sounds like somebody's gonna get so much less out of it. And I think they got more of it. And that blew my mind. I appreciate that. I got lucky. You got lucky. I think that skill, man. Now they you know, it's interesting because I, you know, from from? Well, let me let me preface everything. Sure. I hate teaching. I don't like teaching. I'm not. Seriously, I swear. When we opened our gym.

somebody, one of the guys that we were training with, he goes, hey man, are you excited about the gym opening? I'm like, yeah, I'm super excited. And did I, yeah, man, yeah, I know you love teaching. I don't, I would much rather be any. Then why do you teach? Well, because you're supposed to. If you're the highest belt there, then you should go. But the real reason for teaching, I do get a satisfaction out of it. And I've actually come to see the satisfaction just recently, because before it was just,

putting in work, getting partners to a level to where they were making me better, right? And just kind of building a pool of good training partners. And then, you just kind of blink and they all become your friends and family friends. And you just can't imagine your life without them, right? And then all of a sudden, you're like, well, I gotta open a gym in my town. There's no gym in my town. And it shortens my commute. It makes everything good. And so in a sense, it was selfish. 100%. 100%, yeah. And then, there's a...

you know, there's a moment where you just kind of sit back and you look around and you know, none of these people would know each other if it wasn't for jujitsu. And then you watch people lose a bunch of weight. You watch people get significantly less killable, right? Cause they're doing jujitsu, right? And you watch them get comfortable in uncomfortable situations. And then you just, you're watching all this happen and it plays out in front of you. And you know, when you're coaching, you know, you have, you have moments where everyone's drilling and you can just sit back on the wall and just watch it all.

Jeremy (05:40.75)

And that fills my cup watching like, it's, even though it is jujitsu, right now, love jujitsu, I love it, but it's bigger than that. It's community, these people now feel a belonging, have a team, you know, a family, like, we refer to everything as a family. So hey, these are your family, like, you wouldn't let your cousin go do this and not tell them, what are you doing? You know, to be like, no, get back over here. Right? You wouldn't, you know, you wouldn't give family the advice. Yeah, you should take as much time off. Take a break. Don't do

No, no, work harder, do more, you know what I mean? So like it's a real good positive peer pressure with each other. And, and when you sit back and you see it, it was, it's probably one of the first times where I sit back and I'm always worried about relevancy personally. Like I'm like, I never have any time, you know, like I compete maybe once a year, you know, like I never have time to go visit other gyms and kind of do all the, you know, shaking hands and kissing babies and stuff. And, you know, I, and,

you know, part of me feels like, oh man, I should be doing that. But my responsibilities for to be with everybody facilitate, you know, just like you were doing, you did a great job facilitating and everybody felt welcome. And it was so nice. And most of that was Jen. It was great. You guys did a great job. And in that, you know, I just feel more like a facilitator to where like, Oh, this is, this is my town. You know, these are, you know, it's my responsibility to make everybody feel welcome and then, you know, create an environment where people want to work hard. You know what I mean?

So you talked about teaching rather than enjoyment, a feeling of satisfaction. Describe that. Say more about what satisfaction is versus enjoyment. So the enjoyment, like for me, when I'm truly enjoying jiu-jitsu, personally at a selfish level, it's kind of like being at the beach and you're just kind of in the white water fighting the water and just you're half going with it.

half finding your way through, you're just having a blast. There's no really rhyme or reason, but you're in a blender and the ocean has you and it is doing what it wants. But you're surviving and enjoying and you're not in a level of panic because of a certain level of competency of swimming. And same thing with surfing, bodyboarding and stuff. And I grew up in Southern California so when I went to the beach, that was what kids did. They went and just sat in the breakers, little waves, just had fun and splashed around and it was just be out there for hours.

Jeremy (08:08.478)

Jiu-Jitsu the same thing. You're in a blender. You're in the everything's uncomfortable and you have so many techniques that you just kind of get lost and you've Time is so relative, right? So you'll just be in there going through your match not really winning or losing but and not concerned with that But trying to improve your movement and when you feel it There's there's just so many good moments where you move you sweep you get on top and you're like nice But you can't enjoy it too much because the next way is gonna smash you right? So then you're like

You know, you kind of limit your, you know, your, you know, your triumphs and your failures, but the learning is so consistent linear that you just feel like there was so much value in that moment. And then you just blink and then all of a sudden, wow, it's a 15 minute round. Like it's fought for 15 minutes. Like that was fun, you know? And then onto the next round and onto the next round. And, and that's probably my favorite is when you're just like, when you just, you're in this, in this flow state, like you're still going hard. You're still doing all the stuff.

but there's no thinking like you're just, you're a part of the fight. The word that's coming to mind as you're describing this as surrender. Yeah. There's an element of surrender to the process where you're talking about the waves or you're talking about, you know, somebody trying to crush it. Yeah. You have, you have to, you have to accept what you're doing. Right. And that, and I think that's, that's my favorite part about jujitsu is, you know, it, and I mean, and it's a cliche being comfortable, you know, with being uncomfortable, but it,

It really comes to just grinding and going through a process to where when you are, your attack is your defense is everything. You have to, you can't have this predetermined chain in your mind. And a lot of martial arts, I think, have goals and they sell the goals. Same thing with Jiu-Jitsu. They sell the goal, right? They sell the, oh, we're...

We're best at take downs. We're best at, you know, the guard and attacking from the guard. We're best at this, best at that, blah, blah. But if you really, really are in it, you, the first thing you have to submit to is, Hey, I'm going to fight. I'm going to fight. This is where I'm at. Nothing else matters. And that, that accepting of what you're doing of I got to fight for my back. I can't be upset that I'm on my back. I can't be upset. I can't have this emotional process of.

Jeremy (10:30.002)

failure and victory and failure and victory. It's exhausting, right? Cause like emotion burns twice as hot as, as regular effort. So if you do that, you burn out, boom, done. So just going through this flow state of, Hey, what is what is and being totally present. And it, and it doesn't, it doesn't burn as hot, which the nice part is after the fact, you can kind of look back and go, wow, that was a really good, that was a good session. That was a good, this, that was a good, that, and, and it sits better and you learn faster. And

you train yourself and this is something that, you know, like with the adults and with the kids, you know, we really harp on is, you know, everybody has this, this emotional loop, you know, and we just kind of want to get rid of that because it doesn't help you anywhere. Like feeling sorry for yourself doesn't, doesn't help you. And, and feeling like there's a failure, it doesn't really help you. Doesn't, I mean, you know, you lose a match, nobody cares.

You know what I mean? Right? Nobody cares. The world keeps turning. You know what I mean? I mean, every time we go to a tournament, there's always a handful of people that are just, man, I'm so nervous. What are you nervous about? And they go, well, I mean, if I lose, I go, do you know who won your division last year here? And they go, nobody cares. Nobody cares. And then when you win it, no one's gonna care either. Yeah. I said, no offense. Out of all these people here standing there, none of them are watching your match.

It's true. Oh, and I'm like, you know what I mean? You just got to go in there, have some fun, respect your partner because they're going to highlight some things you got to work on later. And hey, man, it is what it is. Just let it ride. And in that, the emotional process of having, feeling that you got beat or some people go into processes, oh, I got cheated the rules or they start deferring all this stuff. Hey, man, own what happened. Be present, own what happened. It is what it is.

Right? Respect your opponent because your opponent is your teacher. And no one's going to understand you as much as that guy or girl. Right? That person does exactly what you do every day and they get their enjoyment out of that. They understand you more than anybody else. Right? You go to Starbucks and go get a coffee and that person's going to look at you like you are, you know, what are you, what are you, where are you on your way to? Oh, I'm going to jujitsu. What's that? Oh, it's like murdering pajamas. They're gonna look at you like you're crazy, you know, and

Jeremy (12:46.266)

I don't blame them, right? But when people think about tournaments and stuff like that, it's a progression in a competition setup. It's really unnatural. The only person you compete with is yourself. And I think Jiu Jitsu does the best. It's one of the best conduits, hands down. And you could probably get it from ping pong if you really, really thought about it. But you know what I mean? I mean, martial arts is the best. Because if you mess up and you.

You think you have a chain of, or a sequence together, and then all of a sudden crack, you get cracked upside the head. Wow, maybe my hands were higher. Maybe I should have done a little better. Same thing with Jiu Jitsu. Hey, next thing you know, you can't breathe. Okay, all right, tap, restart, pivot, and go. So we try to eliminate the process of regret and oh, I'm terrible, I'm not good enough on this, on that. Oh, I gotta talk to my therapist. Oh, I need my psych meds. Oh, and then...

I come back around and then, well, you just lost a month. You know what I mean? How about just, okay, and pivot, and then go forward. No motion, hey, you win, you lose, hand up, hand down, doesn't matter, on to the next one. And the takeaway from that is not just Jiu Jitsu, it's, I mean, things are gonna happen in life. Because I mean, at the end of the day, we always, I mean, especially the parents, I talk with the parents I train, I mean, this isn't about Jiu Jitsu. None of this is about Jiu Jitsu. None of it.

has nothing to do with jiu-jitsu. And I'm like, this is all for life. Like, you know, you're gonna get smashed by the brown belt and he's gonna beat the snot out of you, right? And you're expected at the end, after you tapped a thousand times, right? On the whistle to go with the next person and like that never happened, right? And pivot and just go. And you know, where's the carryover to life? You know, somebody's gonna pass away in your life. Somebody's, you're not gonna get the job. You're not gonna...

You know, you're going to get looked over a bunch of times. You're going to, you know, an injustice is going to happen to you. And what do you have to do? You pivot and continue to go forward and be useful, right? You can't just sit there and wallow, you know, in your, in your own self-pity. You can't do that. It doesn't help anybody, right? You have to be useful. So those things are, you know, basically on display on the mat every day when you grind. And that's the thing is, you know, we, we've got people come to our gym.

Jeremy (15:11.998)

I mean, we had black belts come version and just go, hey man, was that warm up for me? Like, why would we have a black belt? It's a really good black belt, super nice guy. And he was like, I've never done a warm up that hard in 15 years. And I was like, thanks. And he goes, is that for me? No, it's Tuesday. And he goes, whoa, he's getting ready for competition? I'm like, no. He goes, what was that for? Get ready for Wednesday? Life? Yeah, for Wednesday. Yeah, literally for the next day and the next day. I'm like, we.

We don't have a lot of time. So I don't lift weights. Most of the guys that train with me don't lift weights. We have full-time jobs and families and this and that. When we're on the mat, you got to get it all in. So it's a pressure cooker. And it's not for everybody, but it really does. The nice thing is after, again, getting back to get our gym open and sitting on the side of the wall and watching all these people come together and be more resilient and just

happy and watching the community bond. You're just like, okay, I guess we're doing the right thing. I guess this is what we're supposed to be doing. So yeah, it seems that everybody kind of gets with it. You know, the philosophical stuff that you're talking about, certainly heard people say these things before, but I get a different sense from you that this is also how you live your life. 100%. Where does that come from? Is that?

Was that handed to you by family or past instructors or is this stuff that, you know, after you banged your head against the wall enough times, you started to understand these things? You know, I was super lucky to have good mentors in my life. If anything, I chose good mentors. If I have any attribute, that's it. And, you know, my father was best dad in the world. I mean, he was the best guy, the best. You know.

he the way he lived his life was a really good blueprint the way him and my mom you know the way they lived and parented was just a great blueprint you know I mean just I had good examples and then you know when I went to high school into the same high school that my older brothers did and my little brother did you know we all went to the same high school big giant high school and you know my older brothers you know they were they were kind of polar opposites they're

Jeremy (17:37.078)

You know, they're quite a few years ahead of me. So I grew up knowing that I was gonna play football for those coaches. I was gonna wrestle for these coaches and these coaches knew who I was and they were, you know, chomping at the bit, hoping that I would live up to them. So, you know, my older brothers were my heroes, right? So, and then it was real easy to walk in and then I meet these coaches who are phenomenal. Coach Pendleton, him and my son, or me and his son were best friends. We were both the same grade. We came up together.

You know, it was, you know, he was such a good coach. Coach Meek was such a good coach. And these guys were just, they were very good leaders. And, you know, I remember losing, losing a football game, right? I was a, I was a middle linebacker and it was my junior year, I think. And, uh, we lost a big pivotal football game. Excuse me. We won a pivotal football game, but we gave up like 20 some odd points or something. We should never have been able to do things. Our defense was, they're monsters. And, you know, so the offensive bus is.

we're going back to the gym and back to the locker room and offensive bus goes to locker room and then we go right back to the field. And we knew he was disappointed. And we ran, I think it was like 28 or 30 gassers, right? So we ran for hours and the parents pulled up like, Hey, what's going on? And they knew not to cross him. So they all stood at the fence and watched us run until we threw up. We won, you know, so like the efforts that we did and the, how he pounded in leadership and.

And it was, you know, that kind of carried me through. And then when I became a cop, you know, I you know, my mentor in policing was, you know, was Nick Sessions, you know, and he recently passed away a couple of years ago. And but he was he was a great guy. And I remember coming out of the academy, probably at my least athletic. I mean, on paper, I was probably the person you don't invest in. And, you know,

I literally walk out of the academy with all the other recruits and, you know, I'm in a place I'm not used to, you know, Arizona, you know, they just moved from Southern California to Arizona and he just opened his arm. Come on, boys, come with me. And so next thing you know, we're under his wing and we're learning, you know, he just showed the way that you mentor people to get them to elevate themselves. And then and then that was right around the time I ended up.

Jeremy (20:03.886)

going into narcotics, I was a narcotics detective and I was on the SWAT team. And I was kind of worried, you know, because I wasn't in great shape. I had wrestled my whole life as an athlete, but I just really let myself go for a handful of years after college. And then and then, you know, I was like, man, I'm gonna get killed buying drugs undercover. I suck at this. So next thing you know, you know, I meet Rick and I mean, that's the whole story itself. And started Jiu Jitsu. And I remember

Like I will never stop jujitsu. Why'd you start? Because I literally, I was afraid I was going to die, you know, get killed behind drugs and recoveries. I sucked at it. Why jujitsu? I think growing up, I did a little bit of kempo. I did, or for about two years, Chinese kempo. And then Ed Parker.

And then I was with an Ed Parker school and this is all when I was like young, like adolescents and teens. And then, um, I did mooyay dough with, um, at Tiger Yang's facility in Fullerton. I lived down that way. And it was super cool. And I remember I was just so confused though, um, about foot sweeps and everything stopping at the ground because I was a, I was a stick and ball sport guy. So my family, we all wrestled and we played football and I was a

middle linebacker and a running back. So everything ended up in a crash and on the ground, right? And I was like, I know this, but this isn't really translating, right? The distance fighting. And it was fun. I enjoyed it. But I think my parents always treated it like it was something fun to try, but that we're not sticking with it. Like we are football, wrestling, baseball, hockey, in the major sports.

And it was kind of funny because I enjoyed martial arts more because I felt like they had a better mentality towards growth because it's lifelong. They never stop. So there's no time limits. So you don't get these weird pressure. There's no seasons. No, there's no seasons, right? Like, yeah. And it's less gaming the game and more, you know, learning, like lifelong learning. And I liked that. And I liked the...

Jeremy (22:27.918)

There was a nobleness about it. I mean, even at times, a chivalry about it. And I just really liked the honor culture. I liked it. And then you go to stick and ball sports, and you've got parents losing their mind. And it's not uncommon to, especially like you go to a wrestling tournament, and you've got a coach who's 400 pounds and hasn't worked out, and God knows how long. And he's screaming at his kid who's cut weight for a

you know, the last four days and, you know, in completely unhealthy, you know, screaming out of, and then it's disappointed at a loss. And it's like, Hey man, like this, we got to fix that. You know, like that, that angle is just math doesn't battle. It doesn't math. Yeah. That math doesn't math at all. Yeah. And, and that was one thing that, you know, my dad, I remember, you know, having all these, these good mentors, um, you know,

I kind of caught them in their primes and then kind of systematically, they all kind of started passing away and it kind of sucks because at a certain point, you know, you watch all these people give so much and, you know, they take time away from their families. They take time away from their friends and they're, they're really give a lot of themselves for no return, nothing expected. And that's, and I think that's important, but I didn't learn that until I saw it all a bunch. I mean, I saw it over and over and over, you know,

And when you see it over and over and over, you know, it's important. Well, I can't just talk the talk. I have to walk the walk, you know, like my dad, you know, he, I pretty much do parenting in life very similar to what he does, except, you know, he took his vacation one hour at a time to make sure we could get to football practice. And we would change from football, you know, from, out of our football pads into our wrestling shorts and go from wrestling to football. I mean, we were, that's, you know, four boys and that's what's going to happen. And, uh,

And that, you know, he neglected himself. And my dad was a good athlete in his day, but just focused solely on business. So his sons could do what he always wanted to do. Never pushed us. Right. But he always made sure we didn't quit. And that was, that was really, it was a, it was a good distance. The bad part of it was those that, you know, once he got into his forties and fifties, you know, he, his health wasn't, wasn't good. And then it was just one episode.

Jeremy (24:52.086)

you know, and then next thing you know, it's, you know, it's sliding downhill. Right. So when I watched, when I watched him, um, when I watched him get sick, I was like, well, I think I'm, I'm not going to push. I'm going to pull. Right. So I'm going to, I'm going to just tell my kids, Hey, if you don't want to be on the mat, that's fine. You got to come to the mat. You got to be here. You got to be at the gym. So I'm training regardless. And then, um, luckily it's paid off. You know, my kids have fallen in love with the mat and

I don't, I think it's.

It's less mentoring and coaching and probably more, letting people discover and kind of find their, their happy place on the mat. Like my oldest daughter, she wrestles at Wayland Baptist University and she's a scholarship wrestler there. And she never wrestled growing up. She only did Jiu-Jitsu. And our Jiu-Jitsu, all wrestling, all Jiu-Jitsu, all Judo, just everything. And I begged her freshman year.

Please, Russell, please, this is kind of her family's thing, right? And so she's like, okay, fine. She wrestles, within eight months, she's ranked in the top. She's ranked number nine in the nation. And they're like, where did this girl come from? And so she goes on and continues to wrestle, gets recruited, and all that stuff. And for her, her reset is, she's inherently kind of mellow. She likes to, well, you know.

I mean, I don't need to do that. I can just, and she like minimize herself, right? And so, me and my wife, especially my wife, push her, hey, you're not a regular person. This is what you do. Stop, stop going against what you do. This is what you do. And then next thing you know, she zones it. And then now when she comes out of wrestling season, she goes, oh man, I just need to relax and just do jujitsu this off season.

Jeremy (26:50.03)

I'm like, what are you talking about? It's the hardest thing in the world. This is such a weird sentence. Yeah. I don't think I've ever heard anyone make that sentence before. Yeah. And she says it all the time. She goes, wrestling is just so, there's just so much happening. It's just, it's like jujitsu compressed into this like high pressure ball. And then, you know, jujitsu, I can take my time. I can, you know, I can, I can think, I can feel more. And I'm like, it's pretty healthy, you know, a lot of kids, you know, in their 20s. I mean,

They get pressure, they drink, they get a codependent relationship. They try a bunch of weird shit. I mean, thank God she hasn't done any of it. And she's just, hey, just go to the mat. You know, the mat, the mat provides. And then, um, my oldest son, Zachary, he's, you know, he wrestles for wording. And, you know, I mean, that's a, that's a murderers row in there, man. I mean, you know, they're, you know, recurring state champs. They have.

I think six sitting individual state champs. They sent 23 people to the state tournament last year. I mean, they're monsters. I mean, their coaching is just phenomenal. All their coaches are just unreal, super great people, great families. All the wrestlers are great people. And he knows that, I mean, he's sitting at all the weights with all these guys that have been wrestling all this time. And he doesn't complain, he doesn't whine, he just, I'm on the mat, just works. I'm just gonna work.

I'm an outwork myself. He never compares himself to anybody. He just continually pushes himself. And all those kids are really good kids and they really push themselves to be better. And they don't really, I've never seen them compete against each other, never. It's the craziest thing. They all wrestle. They all beat the snot out of each other. And when they get up, they're never mad if they lose to a fellow wrestler.

They're mad at themselves not being able to do something, whatever. It's one of the healthiest wrestling rooms I've ever seen. And the coaches, the parents, and parents are phenomenal. No wrestler becomes that without a healthy family and support system. So a lot of great families. I mean, it's one of the reasons why we moved to wording is just really good people, man. I mean, all their heads are on straight, good folks. And Zach is one of the healthiest kids at his age. I mean, shit, I remember how I was when-

Jeremy (29:08.77)

was his age, I was not. It was crazy, you know what I mean? There's no way, you know? And he just, I mean, he continues to impress me all the time. I mean, it's pretty impressive. And then my younger ones, you know, they, I mean, they're happy kids that just, they're on the mat all the time. So, you know, they don't have time to really get in real trouble because they're always on the mat. So. And they enjoy it. They have a great time. And you know, Loudon is my youngest and he's, you know, he's

at times, you know, my ability hurts my this, my that. Okay. He was here. He was here. The little one. Yeah. And when, when he really focuses, he's a monster. He is one of the first, you know, seven year olds. I know that can really play Delahiva really well, you know, Delahiva garden. I'm like, wow, most kids can't really wrap their head around that. He loves it. Go figure. And then, uh, and then my, my youngest daughter, Sophia, you know, she loves jujitsu, but I think she loves it mostly for the camaraderie. And I think she's learning jujitsu as a peripheral, but she loves being.

in that environment because it's healthy. There's not, you know, what you see, you know, in, in seasonal sports, you know, it's just because it's a big family. So, and it's, you keep coming back to that word family. And if we think about the sports that you've brought up, those are all very close knit sports. Football is incredibly close. Yeah. Police work. It is, it is a, it's a family. It's a family. It's a fraternal order. It's a brotherhood, whatever you want to call it. And the way you're talking about

your school that you didn't want to have because you don't want to teach, right? It's the community and the recognition. It sounds like the recognition that I want that community. I value that community more than I don't want to teach. Yeah. Pretty much. That's exactly it. And I mean, I've been, you know, I've taught at gyms that, you know, valued, you know, community very much so, but valued it in.

you know, with, with different core tenants, you know, that I didn't really like, I didn't really associate with and they just weren't, they didn't fall within my value set. And I think that this was, without naming them, can you talk a little bit about what those are? Yeah. You know, like I think it's really easy. Um, I think it's really easy to, you know, kind of see the, you know, see it's, it's kind of be the hero and be like, Hey, you've been a victim. I want to make you not a victim. Um,

Jeremy (31:39.378)

And then, you know, I think where the world is now and just kind of, you know, you have a lot of views that, you know, people kind of sit in that victimhood too long and they value it too much. And, you know, and it's, it, you know, it's, for a lot of people it's only when they get recognition. It's, it's, it's a trap. It is a trap. It is a trap. And, you know, I understand, um, I understand how it's easy to fall into that trap, but you know, it's, it's more, you know, the, the importance has to be put,

on getting out of the victimhood, right? And not fostering it, not, you know, I mean, you can't ignore it, but you know, there's a certain way, but in every community is different, right? And that community wasn't exactly my community, but it was a lot of really good people, I mean, phenomenal people, I'm still friends with most of them today, but they are, you know, they definitely have a different set of values that, you know, I just couldn't.

couldn't hang with and that's okay. I mean, everybody's, you know, everybody's, you know, teach their own and wish them all the best. But for, for me, for me to kind of, you know, express my Jiu-Jitsu, my idea for, um, you know, how I feel Jiu-Jitsu should be represented, it should definitely be, you know, non-

Jeremy (32:59.746)

You know, uh. Leave it at the door. Yeah, I mean, yeah. All this stuff. Yeah, I mean, it's not, you know, this is where we're all the same. And also, it's hard. It's supposed to be hard. You know what I mean? I can't really ever get on board with notional things, right? I'm not a huge fan of notional things. Notional speaking, we could do this. Well, notional speaking, I could get hit by an asteroid right now. Like, this goes a lot of ways, right?

I really do appreciate the fact that with Jiu Jitsu, nothing is notional. It's all felt 100%. Right. And it's hard because, you know, so much in life, you can't, you can't simulate, but in Jiu Jitsu, you can, you can submit, you know, you can do most of it. Right. And you get, there's some things you can't, you know, you can't practice, you know, at full speed, um, you know, in a fight, you know, people are talking about eye gouging and.

biting and hair pulling and stuff. I mean, hey, cool, man. I mean, you know, whatever. I think those are, those are things of opportunity, you know, can't drill that, you know, okay. But, you know, same thing with, with standup martial arts, you know, that are, that are super effective, but you clang shins at a hundred percent a couple of times. I mean, you're out for a few weeks, man. I mean, you could be out for longer than that, but in jujitsu, you can go a hundred percent and just tap, it's over. And then start again and then tap, it's over. And that's kind of why I think jujitsu kind of edits itself. The technique edits out.

the things that just kind of don't work. And it adds things that kind of do work, you know? And that's also one thing, you know, I think more jujitsu nowadays has become a little more defiant, a little more rebellious to kind of mainstream jujitsu because, you know, you get, you know, you hear people, you know, they're busting their ass, they're grinding, and then all of a sudden they get caught in a submission.

It's supposed to be a blood choke and they get a neck crank a little bit. Like, that was a crank. Well, you tapped. You said uncle, it is what it is. You know what I mean? It's a real thing. I mean, were they going for that? No, but it is what it is. But it worked. Yeah. So that protest, that's part of what we're trying to iron out. Jay, just own it. It is what it is. Continue. And I think that a lot of the mainstream Jiu Jitsu still kind of, they have these kind of, you know,

Jeremy (35:21.526)

pitfalls that they kind of feed into, you know, this isn't that, that is this. Well, what makes you the authority? Jujitsu seems to be going through some of the things that, what's collectively call them stand-up arts, right? Went through a few decades ago, you know, around some of the politics and, you know, well, the way we do it, right. And, you know, and I find that interesting because as you said, you, you can push a lot closer to that a hundred percent, you know,

And more frequently. Yeah. And that does lead to quite a bit of evolution. I think some people that maybe they physically are past their prime that don't want to keep grinding. They want to ride on what they did, not what they're doing. They're trying to push that wave back, which obviously isn't going to happen. No. And I think a lot of it too is a little nationalistic.

calling it Brazilian jujitsu and there's a big debate, just call it jujitsu, right? There's a lot of, yeah, well, it's Gracie jujitsu. Well, it's American jujitsu. Well, when you start getting into branding and stuff like that, I feel like some of that stuff's a little disingenuous. I mean, the Gracie family has done so much for martial arts in the last hundred years. I mean, they've been the impetus for so much. And I mean, you got nothing but the utmost respect.

You also have to, you know, really what they did was they opened up the view, right? They scaled out the view where everyone's looking, Oh, look at, look at Jiu-Jitsu. Look at this. Right. And it's like, Hey, hey, pan out, pan out on grappling. Look, you know, you have, you know, you have American wrestling, right? Folk style wrestling. Where did that come from? Did that, did they ever cross paths? They did cross paths. Right. And, and, and where did Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu come from? From Judo and at what time and what.

what evolution that judo was going through. And when you start looking at grappling just on a big scale, there was so much going on and the story's romantic. It is wonderful. And there's so many players and the players are great characters. I mean, why we just neck it down to the Gracie family, right? And- And it's simpler. Right. And it's simpler. It requires less work. It does, it does. But you know, the bad part is, is that-

Jeremy (37:47.286)

you lose the nuance, right? And that's something that I really appreciate about Jiu-Jitsu. You can basically, in your lineage, go back to, some people will go back to Carlos Gracie, and they'll stop there. Some people go, like for us, we go all the way back to Jiguro Kano, because without Kano, we wouldn't have, we wouldn't have what we have, right? So your lineage is cool, because you know,

I don't believe anything's by accident, right? Nothing's by accident. So when you show up, you know, it's, you know, you're a part of the novella now. You're part of the story. And so you place yourself right there and you look back and when you look at these individuals who were the professor of the professor of the professor, you know, it's important. And, you know, I've never really considered myself such a traditional guy, but this was one of the first times that the gym culture that I'm used to and then like the honor culture from

martial arts that I've always, always yearned for, smashed together and just in a really, really nice melody, they work together where it's just, it makes sense. And it's hard when you see people come into this culture, at first there's like this moment of like, I don't know if I bow, I don't know if I, they'll come from Filipino martial arts, they'll come from here, they'll come from there, and all this other stuff. And then all of a sudden they realize like, oh, oh.

All right, so we're bowing and showing respect and there is layers of the story and why we do what we do, but it really comes down to becoming the most effective or getting the most effective movement from ourselves and comparing ourselves to yesterday and being a better version of ourselves. And it's a bigger thing. Oh, got it. And then all of a sudden there's not that anxiety of like, oh, I don't want to bow to that.

I don't want to do the wrong bow and I don't want this. And it's like, hey, we're all good. At the end of the day, we're a bunch of hairless apes in pajamas trying to strangle each other. Hey, if you don't think that's funny, I don't know what it is. I don't know what it is, right? So just get in it, you'll start sweating, we'll have fun. And that's kind of been a real rewarding thing of keeping the respect for the story and the lineage.

Jeremy (40:12.426)

alive with every student that comes in. I want them to feel that, hey, you're not here by accident. And this is where you are in this story. So the more you learn about this, the more value it is for you to be here. Because you're in this line. You're part of that story. And all of the techniques, that's the other half. So everybody goes through this moment of, in every martial art, you just get to this point where you're like, all right, I've done the kata. I've done this. I've done that.

I get it. I just feel like I'm hitting a wall. Creativity, I'm just hitting a wall. And then all of a sudden, you just start Googling a professor or a training partner or this or that. And all of a sudden, you're like, oh, wow. And then the story, right? Well, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is so young. It's so well-documented. And it's fracturing off into better stories in the peripheral that weren't highlighted before. So now people are like, oh, wow. Actually, my lineage is really good.

really cool. And this is why I do these moves because this guy fought Valiantudo. There was no jujitsu. It was fighting was it, you know? So people are really coming into their own with balancing where they sit and their technique and their lineage in the story and they're, they kind of go together real well. And I think it's important. I mean, you shouldn't, you know, you shouldn't do anything half ass. If you're everything whole ass, right? What are you doing to

continue that story to make sure that the story being told about you and about your students and about their students is even more compelling and dynamic and worth reading. And worth reading, yeah. Well, you know, I kind of minimize a lot of my story. I just put enough in there. I had the worst. Yeah. I mean, well, you know, Jujitsu just, it really helped me in my life in so many aspects. And I hate to be that cliché of like, oh, Jujitsu saved my life. Everybody says that.

And it's true, you know, but for me, I mean, it, it facilitated everything. It facilitated everything. I mean, when you do something harder than you've ever done for longer than you've ever done, you start getting confidence in every direction of like, Oh, yeah, I can do that. Oh, yeah, sure. I can do that. So it just, it opens up possibilities that you've never, you never imagined. And it's

Jeremy (42:38.302)

It's something that I think when we do class, I always throw in talks about each person. That's why in our gym, we have big banners of our lineage all the way across our gym. And so they're bigger than life. They're like seven foot tall, big blown up deals. And it gives me a searchable. These are people. Of people, of the lineage, all the way from me to Jigarokano. Oh, cool. And so I try to at least once a week, as I'm teaching.

in, you know, either before we bow out or before we bow in, I'll give a background and why and the technique and lace it to the person, explain a little bit about them. And then all of a sudden, you just kind of watch like, Oh, oh, and I go look, there's so much information about these guys. I'm like, we have links on our website, you can go and read more about them. I have little bios on each of them. But they're so interesting. And I'm like, you know, don't just focus on me. I mean, my I'm least interesting compared to all these guys, right? These guys come from different times, like

Focus on them first, right? I mean, I'm here, I'll talk, it is what it is. But as far as Rick Lucero, I mean, Rick's been close family friend for years, 15 years. And without Rick, I would have never started Jiu Jitsu. And his background is crazy. They should make a movie about the guy. He's traveled all over the world, fought Valturto at the beginning. I mean, he was the first American to win a Valturto in Brazil. And it-

hand of money in place just blew up. Yeah, nobody wanted to see that. Right. And he was, you know, he went through his brown belt with Hickson all the way up to Brown Belt with Hickson and then Hickson and Hickson son Hawkson that passed away. Rick and him were close friends. So when he went back to Brazil, you know, to just get his personal matter square, Rick was still hot and heavy like, hey, man, I need to fight like I. This is what I'm doing. I mean, he's just he's

He didn't look at this the way I look at it. He was just this nonstop eternal pugilist. I mean, if you were going to thumb wrestle, he was like, OK, stretch him. He took everything seriously. He's still that way. He's a wild man. And he was amongst the greatest of all times in icons. He was in the middle of it. I mean, he was Mark Kerr's jujitsu coach.

Jeremy (45:06.754)

the smashing machine. I mean, Rick's tiny and they would do takedowns for an hour straight. Good luck. I mean, Rick was 165 pounds, 170 pounds. Mark Kerr was like 260. And they just go, bam, bam. And I mean, hearing these stories, we're fighting in, I think it was either the Ukraine or somewhere in Eastern Europe and him and Bas Rutner in a Unimog in the winter.

him and a bunch of fighters, but him and boss rooting were getting transported from one side to the other, to the arena, to where they were going to fight. You know, boss falls out the back, you know, and he's got to be great. So, I mean, just wild, wild stuff just, you know, and he, and he lived it. So when, when he showed up, I mean, the, you know, the, the story behind me being able to train with him, you know, I'm, I'm with a handful of other cops were in a boxing gym in Mojave Valley, which is just, I mean, that's where

I mean, if there's hell, it's somewhere in between Baghdad and Mojave Valley as far as heat wise, you know, but I mean, I love that area. But the best people in the world because they're tough as nails, right? You don't have to be. You have to be. Yeah. You're gonna get selected out. Yeah. And we're in this boxing gym, right? In Tommy's boxing gym. And you know, he's turned out some Olympians and you know, these guys are tough dudes. And they're looking at

us cops, you know, and we're all kind of out of shape and you know, we're watching videos and you know, this before stuff was on your phones, you know, so we're watching these little, you know, DVD players, you know, I guess we'll try this and okay, all right, well, all right, let's fire. And we heard each other. We had no idea what we're doing. And then Rick walks in one day puts on his black belt. Hey, he was teaching class. We're like, you are, we have no idea what we're doing. Like we're hurting each other. Please help us not hurt each other. So he started that way. And he's like, I don't know.

I'm kind of done fighting. He was living in Vegas. And he was still fighting. And everyone kept saying, oh, you're Pastor Prime, Pastor Prime. And he was like, I'm just good to go. I'm still good to go. So we basically tell him, hey, man, if you don't open the gym, we'll burn your house down. He's like, all right, fine. So he starts a gym. And it's literally one inch puzzle mats on the floor at an old Napa auto parts store.

Jeremy (47:24.422)

on the concrete and there's not a person in there under 200 pounds and we're doing judo. Boom, he poncy and bam. So, if you didn't know how to break fall, you were done. I mean, there was, it wasn't, it wasn't who was the best. It's who was left after all that training. And it was kind of wild because, you know, I mean, he turned out some monsters, man, that are still around and still trained and still are as, you know, as relevant as they could ever be, right?

And the way Rick trained is you, you know, yeah, he was teaching you stuff, but you felt like you were at his training camp. You were a partner for him to tune up on. And he wasn't mean to anybody or anything like that. He was such a nice guy. Still a nice guy. But I mean, he just didn't mess around. I mean, it was legitimate. I mean, we had a pew tree out front and, you know, we're in the desert. Doesn't rain, you know, rains maybe three days a year, you know, during monsoon season and.

There's no foliage, there's no trees anywhere, right? And this one tree, giant lush because we puked on it every day. Tons of guys running outside, throwing up. And I mean, it was just unreal. But that was the luck. That's where I don't feel like anything's by accident. And Rick's, I think he's the fifth non-Brazilian to get his black belt in jiu-jitsu. And so he's one of those dirty dozen guys.

Most of us guys have at that level, like Roy Harris and-

Chris Howard or all these guys, you know, these guys, you know, walk on water in the community and they, you know, have, you know, up to a hundred black belts or more, you know, Rick has nine, you know what I mean? Nine. He just gave his ninth, you know, a couple of months ago because he just wasn't done fighting. It's like I'm done. He's like he's taught at a bunch of places, but he's like, yeah, we're good. We're going to get a bunch of people, a brown belt and he's out and leave it to a brown belt. And you do that all the time because he was all, you know, all over the world. And, you know, he's.

Jeremy (49:26.334)

Now he just kind of I think is figuring out his relevance. He's like, oh, he's like, I guess people really do care about what I'm doing. It's like, yeah, man, like you're like a big deal, you know, I'm telling you. Yeah. I'm telling you, I'm telling you, you know, and I'm like, man, someday they ought to make a movie about you because you know, he's, he's not shy. I mean, he'll tell you stuff that, you know, most people probably wouldn't say about, about themselves. He's a hundred percent honest. I mean, he's, and that's, I think one of the things that really attracted me to him because, you know, and trust him because.

He's never lied to me, never lied to me. Some stuff I wish he did lie to me, but he never lied to me. You know what I mean? And he's just one of the realest people you'll ever meet. And I value that as much as, if not more, than just being nice, right? Sometimes you're nice or you're harmless, right? I'd prefer somebody being real and know where I stand. I prefer that. And he's always been that way. So I think that's part of the reason I-

always like, I don't really, I prefer not to teach. I prefer not to teach because, you know, I mean, he didn't really like teaching. I still think he doesn't like teaching, but he does, now I'm understanding the satisfaction he gets when he sees what he's building. In his gym in Arizona now, you know, his first female black belt, Kim Anderson, I mean, she's a monster. She's, I mean, she'll fit in my pocket, but she'll, I mean, she'll destroy your knees

nothing flat, you know, she's one of the best I've ever seen. And, you know, and I, and I trained with her, she's from up here, you know, I trained with her up here. And, uh, and you know, it was so awesome seeing those two get together. And I was like, these are two of the highest level black belts I've ever seen. And now they're running their school there. And, you know, with Rick, there was a high attrition rate because it was just so hard and just, I think it needed just Kimberly's touch because Kim is

phenomenal coach, really smart, she's a little more diplomatic, you know what I mean? So she, you know, and in approach to teaching and, and I mean, with them together, you can't help but love them. So their, their gym has just exploded. And the work ethic still, max, it's just now it's probably a little smarter instead of keeping people, you know, because like, I can't tell you how many times in the olden days we'd be training and you know,

Jeremy (51:53.266)

you'd hear it sound like a wet shirt tear. And everybody stops and looks over their shoulder and somebody tear their bicep rolls up, or pull a hamstring or something. And I mean, zero, zero sympathy, zero sympathy came out of it. Hey, you better get to the hospital. That's just a bicep tear. You'll be fine, but you're gonna need surgery. You better tell your buddy, all right. You get back in the role and I'm like, wow.

That's never seen the movie unbreakable No the part of the premise at the beginning of the film is The villain does all these horrible things Knowing that the attrition will be really high but someone will rise they'll find someone that's kind of what it's reminding me I'm like, let's go super hard because yeah, most of them are gonna wash out but the ones that don't will be yeah, and that's exceptional and it's weird because

I'm, when you think about tough people, like when I think about tough people, like Rick stuff, Rick is tough. You know, like Kim, like I watched her belt test, like, man, she is tough. Like, you know, I mean, you know, Mike Kanzaki, Rick's first black belt. He is tough as nails. You know, every black belt Rick has, they're tough as nails. I don't consider myself tough at all because I'm looking this way. And it was super funny. I was, I was training at, um, at, or I was teaching at the gym up North.

And I randomly, you know, we're doing a really hard warm up and, you know, we've got our belts around each other. We're pulling people as we're running. And I planted just as, just as my partner leaned back and then and tore my calf. So you have two heads of your calf and my calf rolled up to the same side. And I thought he kicked me and I was like, oh, and I was like, you kicked me? And he's way far back, you know, and I went and I dug a couple more times.

I was like, all right. And it swelled up and made my pants tight, like down to my leg. And I went, oh shit, this is bad. And so I continued to teach through the deal. And one of the ladies in class was a doctor. She's a monster too. She's like, I think you need to get that checked out. And I was like, I'll be all right. I'll be all right. I mean, it got bad. And then I figured out, I went to the doctor the next morning. And I mean, my calf is swollen. Swollen. And I mean, my whole foot's purple.

Jeremy (54:17.682)

And they were like, Oh yeah, you got to be on crutches for six weeks or something. You have to reattach it or? No. So the, the lower head tore to the upper head. So there, so one calf, one calf looks normal. One calf is right across. And I said, ah, is it going to, is it going to fully detach? And they're like, I, and I'm like, should I go, do I need surgery to pull it back down? And they go, ah, you're kind of okay. It's like a partial tear for your bicep, you know, like it's still functional. It's not bad.

For sure, yeah. So I was like, OK. I'm like, all right. So I taught class the next day. And then I was on crutches for about six hours. And then I was like, no. And it just in my mind, I'm like, no, I deserve this. Somehow, some way, I've probably done enough shit in my life. I deserve this. And I'm just going to, yeah, I'm good. Probably shouldn't have planned it. Probably shouldn't have exploded. Probably should have been smarter. It's my fault. I'll own it. So much easier to handle. And then that doctor, she goes, hey, she's like, I think you should not.

not trained on that and I was like why she goes where's your crutches and she goes are you using them I'm like yeah I use them the morning I'm a gather painting the ass just limp around you know she goes

you know, people are, you know, it was, it wasn't my first injury there, you know, and she was, you know, people are going to assume they keep training through injuries that you're going to, you expect them to. And I was like, well, yeah. And she was like, uh, and I was, and then we both kind of came to this realization. I was like, Holy shit. I like, I get this from Rick because I've watched Rick tear his shoulder out, stuff his arm and continue to train in practice. And just because it's practice, right. And like, you know,

that culture has always been in our, like our lineage is that way, right? So like, I didn't think it really affected me because you know, like I'm a very, like I said, I'm my natural reset, I'm a soft individual. My favorite thing to do sit on the couch, eat cookies with the family and cuddle with the kids. That if I could do that all day long, that's what I would do.

Jeremy (56:20.002)

But I mean, when it comes to jujitsu, like, I just re-temper and harden up. Like, you know, and Ricky used to always say, hey, you got extra parts. You tear something, you got extra parts, you're fine. You're built, you get through it. So did that conversation with the doctor, that realization, did that change anything? Not a damn thing, no way. No, I didn't ever, no, I went back to the doctor at my, or a month later, at a titer test, and they like, they kind of freaked me out, and they were like, not a titer test, a dime.

D dimer test to see if I threw a clot and they're like, Oh yeah, you need to go in right now to go get an ultrasound. And I was like, Oh shit. I was like, maybe, Oh man, I'm old. Yeah. So I get there. And they were like, the guys like, no, I don't see anything. They're checked. I'll check everywhere. And he goes, yeah. He's like, do you bruise a lot? And I was like, yeah. And I go, well, yeah, fighting every day. And he goes, Oh, well, you'll never pass a D dimer test. He's like, it just shows, you know, to bruising and I was, and he goes, so, you know, most people don't have to be like,

They're not in physical contact all the time. And I was like, oh, I feel way better now. So when I went back from my month checkup, he was like, yeah, I walked in and I was fine. I was totally fine. And he goes, you're not on crutches still? And I'm like, no, I'm fine. Like I run, I'm fine. He goes, I've never seen anybody recover like that. And I'm like, well, it wasn't easy. It hurt. And I'm like, and it's still, I can still feel it. I can feel where the crease is, where there's

it's not connected anymore and there's a dent. And I said, my calves look funny, but I mean, what are you gonna do? You know, I'm not a calf model. And he goes, well, he goes, that's, and he's an athlete, he was a real high level athlete and he goes, well, I don't tell this to a lot of people. He goes, but if you get an injury and you just push through it, he's like, your body gets stronger. He goes, but most people, they just, all they want is pain meds. How does every animal on the planet handle an injury? Right. They don't abandon life. No.

crutches, they deal or they die. Exactly. Those are the only ways it's going to happen. 100%. And you know, I mean, I'm not, I mean, I'm not. That is not medical advice. Yeah. I mean, I'm not going to, I'm not trying to sound like a tough guy or anything like that. I just, you know, I mean, we live in a first world. It's so easy. Life is so easy for us. I mean, you know, I don't, you know, I don't run a lot. I do everything in the gym. All my, all my output is in the gym.

Jeremy (58:52.36)

I would love to get out and walk more. And when I do, I'm not sore. Most people train up for stuff. I don't have to, because I'm always in the gym. I don't lift weights, because I'm lifting people. I feel like I'm putting in work that makes life pretty easy. And when I think about how we live life, I lived in Afghanistan for three years. You know what I mean? I did PSD over there in Herat, Afghanistan.

Jeremy (59:19.602)

in Afghanistan. Oh yeah, I did. Oh yeah, it was. And yeah, you're living there, but that's not the verb most people are going to use. Yeah, I'm not Afghan. I look that way, but I'm not. It's kind of a consistent theme in what you're talking about is just kind of like gently surrendering, embracing whatever it is. I mean, it's easy. PSD being personal security detour? Yes, yeah. So I protect the diplomats all over the world.

Harat, Afghanistan, Kabul, traveled to Masjid. It was, I mean, Harat was my favorite. I mean, it was the best. It reminded me a lot of Arizona, climate-wise, it was beautiful. Afghan people are just phenomenal people. They're so resilient, man, they're so tough, yet so loving. And I'm a Christian, being in a Muslim country, seeing...

how Islam is, you know, at home. That was always treated well. People, and you know, when I was in Iraq.

I felt like people would, yeah, I mean, I was in Baghdad and I was at Camp Shield on the cusp of Sadr City. And, you know, we had some Iraqis that were embedded and I feel like their level of education was higher in Iraq, but also, and also their creature comforts before the war were higher. So I think they weren't as...

Jeremy (01:00:57.31)

as a culture as like you see what you know, what you see is what you get. Like Afghans, like if they don't like you, you know. Like you know, like they're looking burning holes in you and you're like, that guy doesn't like me. And they're like, no, I don't. I can respect that. Fair enough, fair enough. But if someone's being nice to you, they're not gonna stab you in the back. I never got that from Afghans ever. They were great people. And Iraqis were great people too. I just felt like there was a little more cultural swing. Like, oh no, we're good. We're friends, my friend, we're good. And then...

maybe not. Maybe they really didn't. You weren't good. And maybe, yeah, you know, so. But I mean, people are people. It's the same everywhere. But I felt like in Afghanistan, things were just... I was a guest in a Muslim country and I got to see Islam in a good light. I got to see it well. And then, you know, by the people that I interacted with. I also saw the other side that was not so good. You know what I mean?

And that was a little different. But I also, again, we were a small villa that had very few people there, and people from Colombia, Peru, El Salvador, and some of the best people I've ever met in my life that are some of the truest patriots I've ever met. I mean, we knew whatever happened there. We're not getting credit for it. Any of us didn't make a back date.

They didn't care that none of that would ever hit the news. You know what I mean? We were nameless, you know, and we weren't getting any support. And then but we knew that we're contractors. It was what it was. But they the guys that were there were the best guys in the world. Man, they were I mean, they were unreal unwavering gave their 110% loved our country to the fullest and yet gave Afghans 100% the respect that most people would assume we wouldn't both.

We did, because we lived there with them. And then we had a lot of people from India as well that did a lot of our services in our camp. And it was a great experience, and it was nice, but it was for a long time. So I mean, I was there for, I'd be there for three months, come home for a month, be there for six months, come home for a month, be there for four months, come home for a month. So I spent a lot of time there, but the nice thing is I got a lot of solitude.

Jeremy (01:03:24.554)

It wasn't, you know, a lot of people you can get lonely and just have loneliness, but it would be in just in a bad place. I found it. I really got to kind of work on myself and without Jiu Jitsu. I mean, I rolled every day there. I mean, oh yeah, I mean, on the roof of the consulate, which is no wonder the consulate there, they attacked it. But, you know, we're on the roof up there and met some awesome dudes.

We had a little on the roof of our villa which had a Like a two-foot wall and you fall four stories There was a few times I'm grabbing guys. No, don't come back. Come back, you know, and And I know friends with those guys still today, you know, I mean, you know, that's how I ended up out here, you know doing You know doing protection work out here for you know High net worth individuals and you know, tech execs and things like that. So it

It's just, you know, those bonds are real tight. And I mean, those guys are amazing. I mean, I think about those guys every day. They're just great people. And the ones that didn't come back, you know, those guys were, you know, I mean, some of the best ever, some of the greatest people. And then it was a bummer seeing some of those guys not get, you know, any recognition whatsoever. So, but again, you know, I don't know how we got on that subject, but yeah.

How do we get home to these things? Yeah, right. We just kind of go and we see where it takes us. Surrender to the process. So yeah, wherever you're at. That's, yeah, you are where you're at. Yeah, there you are. Yeah. Yeah, so that's kind of always been my, my saving grace is wherever I'm at, I'm home. Yeah. That's how I do things.

How can people get a hold of you? How can they find you online, social media, website, any of that? Yeah, Journeyman Grappling on Instagram, journeymangrappling.com on the web. All the links and all the stuff is there. It takes you to all the social media. We're in Ording, Washington, right? The best small town in Washington, so, Wrestler City, USA. And we're right there on Main Street in the old Copes Pharmacy.

Jeremy (01:05:39.858)

Feel free, come by any time. Yeah. Check online for the schedule and everyone's welcome. Awesome. I'm going to have you close us up in just a moment. But to the audience, thanks for hanging with us.

Jeremy (01:05:54.466)

Check out Roland's website and what he's got going on. And check out whistlekick.com and whistlekickmarshwartsradio.com and make sure you're sharing these episodes with people. So I was asked the guests to close us up. So how do you wanna leave things with the audience? What do you want them to come away with as the final bit today? Well, that's a heavy one. Yeah, it doesn't have to be. Yeah, wish you the best. I wish you all the best in everything that you do and try Jiu-Jitsu, Edley.

Just try jujitsu, right? If you're in any martial art, try jujitsu. It won't help supplement, or it won't hurt to supplement. But- They know how I feel about cross-training. There you go. And just kind of enjoy the process and work hard, love hard, right? So I appreciate the time. It was a great conversation. Thank you. Thank you guys.