Episode 850 - Hanshi Judy Durkin
Today's episode is a chat with Hanshi Judy Durkin, a martial arts practitioner from New Hampshire.“If it’s not fun, who’s going to stick with it?”
Hanshi Judy Durkin - Episode 850
Welcome, fellow martial arts enthusiasts, to another episode of whistlekick Martial Arts Radio. Today we've got a captivating conversation with Hanshi Judy Durkin, diving deep into the heart of martial arts and her incredible journey in it.
Hanshi Durkin believes that martial arts should be a joyful endeavor. Because, as she says “Let's face it, if it's not fun, who's going to stick with it?” She’s been on this exhilarating martial arts journey for nearly half a century, guided by her husband Buzz, a seasoned martial arts instructor known not only for his expertise but also his infectious sense of humor.
In this episode, they delve into the importance of camaraderie in the dojo and how it elevates the martial arts experience. Hanshi Durkin’s journey, amidst hundreds of fellow students, was marked by acceptance and equality, proving that martial arts truly transcend gender boundaries.
And speaking of students, our guest's dojo has seen its fair share of practitioners over the years, becoming a family affair in many cases. Grandparents who trained as kids now train with their children and grandchildren. The secret sauce? It’s a mix of traditional Okinawan karate, a strong sense of tradition, encouragement, and a focus on values that extend far beyond the dojo's walls.
So, sit back, relax, and join us as we explore the passion, determination, and enduring friendships that make martial arts, not just a physical endeavor, but a way of life. Get ready for an inspiring episode filled with wisdom from the dojo, laughter, and a deep love for the martial arts journey!
Show Notes
You can find out more about the Durkin Karate School:
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Show Transcript
Jeremy:
Hey, what's going on everybody? Welcome, this is Whistlekick Martial Arts Radio. Today I'm joined by Hanchi Judy Durkin and we're gonna talk in just a moment, but to all you out there, if you happen to be new to the show, please go check out whistlekick.com, see all the things that we got going. We got some stuff over there, you can use the code podcast15 to save 15%. And of course, if you wanna go deeper on this or any other episode that we've ever done, the best place, whistlekickmartialartsradio.com. Transcripts, show notes, photos, links, all that good stuff over there. without further ado, Judy, thanks for coming on!
Judy Durkin:
Thank you. Hi everyone. Thank you, Jeremy. I'm happy to be here.
Jeremy:
I'm happy to have you here. Now, the audience,
Judy Durkin:
Thank
Jeremy:
especially
Judy Durkin:
you.
Jeremy:
if they're watching, can probably tell this isn't the first time I've met you. And we were actually just talking a little bit about that and how I think the absolute world of you, and I'm just so thankful that you're spending some time with me today.
Judy Durkin:
Oh, and again, I thank you for the opportunity. And I'm thrilled
Jeremy:
Of course.
Judy Durkin:
to be here.
Jeremy:
Of
Judy Durkin:
And
Jeremy:
course.
Judy Durkin:
I'm so happy I know you.
Jeremy:
Yeah! Yeah, I'm happy for that too. Um, you know, the last time I saw you was in April, and we were at Master Terry Dow's event, the Martial Arts Symposium, which I'm actually wearing the shirt that we did for that. Complete coincidence, I actually had not planned that. I'm sure someone out there won't believe me, but I like this shirt. And... You
Judy Durkin:
result.
Jeremy:
guys had pulled in at the hotel and Buzz picks up what your husband picks up, like one bag, and you had like five bags over your shoulder and you wouldn't let me carry any of them. And I said, come on, people are gonna see this and they're gonna think that this is not me.
Judy Durkin:
I'm sorry.
Jeremy:
And I just, I'm gonna always remember that moment because it was just so funny.
Judy Durkin:
Oh my God, now that you mention it, I do remember that. That was hysterical. And Buzz is just going along happily with this one little bag.
Jeremy:
Yeah, and he turned you into the pack mule.
Judy Durkin:
I love it.
Jeremy:
And I think, you know, even though that wasn't a training anecdote, right? We weren't training in the parking lot, though I'm sure
Judy Durkin:
Thank you.
Jeremy:
you, as I have, have trained in parking lots at times. I think it says a lot about your personality. You have, you are not afraid to have fun.
Judy Durkin:
Thank
Jeremy:
I've
Judy Durkin:
you.
Jeremy:
seen you in a gi often enough and you've got a smile on your face, at least every time I've seen you.
Judy Durkin:
It has to be fun, Jeremy.
Jeremy:
Is that something
Judy Durkin:
It's
Jeremy:
that's
Judy Durkin:
not
Jeremy:
important
Judy Durkin:
fun.
Jeremy:
to you
Judy Durkin:
I'm not
Jeremy:
and that
Judy Durkin:
doing
Jeremy:
you teach
Judy Durkin:
it.
Jeremy:
and make a priority?
Judy Durkin:
Yeah. It has to be fun because if it isn't fun, no one would enjoy it seriously. And I'm very lucky because Buzz teaches all the advanced classes. So every single class I go to Buzz is teaching still after all these years. And it's been just about 50 years, and he has the greatest sense of humor. And that's what attracted me to him,
Jeremy:
Did
Judy Durkin:
was his
Jeremy:
did
Judy Durkin:
sense of humor. And the class, he's so funny in the classes. If any
Jeremy:
Did
Judy Durkin:
of the
Jeremy:
you
Judy Durkin:
parents,
Jeremy:
meet in the dojo?
Judy Durkin:
we
Jeremy:
I
Judy Durkin:
did.
Jeremy:
don't know this story, you did.
Judy Durkin:
Yeah, yep. So we met at, sorry.
Jeremy:
That's okay.
Judy Durkin:
Let me just take a quick
Jeremy:
Yeah,
Judy Durkin:
sip
Jeremy:
yeah,
Judy Durkin:
of water.
Jeremy:
yeah. Take your time. Here, I'll take a sip of my coffee while you're doing it.
Judy Durkin:
I have coffee too.
Jeremy:
It's how I get through recording days. It's just
Judy Durkin:
Thank
Jeremy:
constant,
Judy Durkin:
you.
Jeremy:
constant low, low dose. I mean, this is very watery, but low dose coffee throughout the day.
Judy Durkin:
Yeah,
Jeremy:
Please.
Judy Durkin:
so I grew up in Cambridge. My brother, Arthur, when we were teenagers, wanted to study the martial arts. And where he had a few health issues, my parents thought that was a good idea. So they researched all the dojos in Boston and found Sensei George Matson's dojo. Now that's where Buzz was studying. And I'm so fortunate that they found that dojo because it's so rich and steeped in history, traditional Okinawan history. So my brother Arthur signed up there, my parents signed him up. He would come home and show me different punches, blocks, kicks, all the basic stuff. And I thought, well, this looks pretty cool and I'll go in and try it. So I signed up. That's where I met Buzz. Buzz was one of my instructors and he had just gotten back from Vietnam. And it was a huge school. It was like Sensei Matson's dojo was a melting pot for the martial arts.
Jeremy:
I've heard stories about that.
Judy Durkin:
Yeah, it was awesome. And there were maybe four or 500 students. Okinawan masters were always visiting. Bruce Lee was there. So I feel so fortunate that that's the dojo that my parents found for my brother. And because of that one little incident, I met Buzz, I met George Madsen, and the rest is all history. So it's been my life ever since.
Jeremy:
Now one of the things... Go ahead, I don't
Judy Durkin:
No,
Jeremy:
mean to cut you
Judy Durkin:
I
Jeremy:
off.
Judy Durkin:
just had more to tell, but if you have a question. Okay, all
Jeremy:
Well, sure, let me jump in with this and then I'll turn it back
Judy Durkin:
right.
Jeremy:
over to you. At that time, it was not super common for children. And
Judy Durkin:
Mm. All
Jeremy:
it was.
Judy Durkin:
right.
Jeremy:
From my understanding, even less common for women than it is today.
Judy Durkin:
So there
Jeremy:
What
Judy Durkin:
were
Jeremy:
was that
Judy Durkin:
problems.
Jeremy:
like?
Judy Durkin:
Again, Jeremy, I feel so grateful and fortunate because I didn't run into any problems that some women seem to have, especially back then. There were four or five hundred students and I would say half a dozen women, but we were totally accepted. There was no one was treating us any easier because we were women. It was just like we were one of the guys. And if anyone did go a little bit easier, it was only the way that I would go easier with a white belt. Do you know what I mean? Anyone bigger or stronger. So I guess I could have looked at it a different way and got insulted because they were going easy. But I'm not like that. I don't look for trouble or for reasons. I don't try to analyze things. So they went easier, obviously, because we were starting as white belts. But then as we progressed, Yeah, no, they were great. We just worked out with all the guys and that was 1971. And then in 1974, so like I said, Buzz was one of my instructors. We opened up our own dojo. We rented a little spot in Southern New Hampshire. 1974 and 1975, I got my black belt. We got married. 1988, we designed and built our own school. Not far from the original one. So.
Jeremy:
And one of the things, I don't remember if this came up in Buzz's episode, but there are probably some people out there who are saying, Buzz, I feel like I know that name. And that's because in my mind, he wrote the first great work on opening a martial arts school. The
Judy Durkin:
Mm,
Jeremy:
first,
Judy Durkin:
yes. Yep.
Jeremy:
and I'm going to guess you were involved in that in some
Judy Durkin:
Yeah.
Jeremy:
way. Because my understanding is the two of you are... work on things together.
Judy Durkin:
It's you.
Jeremy:
So that's where that name might come up. But one of the things that I often get pushback on, oh well, you know, somebody might listen to your story. Well, you know, Boston, sure, 500 students, you know, what's the population of Boston? Even what was the population of Boston in the early 70s? How big is the town that your dojo's in?
Judy Durkin:
Yeah, I know this is kind of a famous story. I think it's 5,000.
Jeremy:
And how many students do you have?
Judy Durkin:
Well, it's varied over the years.
Jeremy:
Sure,
Judy Durkin:
I
Jeremy:
ballpark
Judy Durkin:
think
Jeremy:
it.
Judy Durkin:
at one point we had up to 400.
Jeremy:
So I just say that because I think it illustrates a couple things. And we can talk about some of them if you want to, but it's important to me that people know just because you are in a small town doesn't mean you can't make this happen.
Judy Durkin:
No, not at all.
Jeremy:
I think that
Judy Durkin:
And
Jeremy:
is
Judy Durkin:
actually
Jeremy:
huge.
Judy Durkin:
it was probably more, but at that point, Buzz was teaching most of the classes at that time. And then now, you know, we have a lot of really excellent,
Jeremy:
Yes,
Judy Durkin:
good
Jeremy:
you
Judy Durkin:
help,
Jeremy:
do.
Judy Durkin:
including our Marcus. But it got to a point where he liked to know everybody, everybody's name, everybody's spouse, everybody's family. And then when it's too big, it's hard for that to happen. So we just cut back a little. Now I think we're happily cruising at 300 or something. I'm not
Jeremy:
Only
Judy Durkin:
sure,
Jeremy:
three.
Judy Durkin:
I'm not sure. I don't pay attention to any of that.
Jeremy:
Yeah. And, you know, let's just kind of follow this thread and we'll bring it back and make sure we talk about you. But I think we're on the same page that, you know, empowering school owners is of value. And so we have a number of them in the audience. So I just want to make sure they hear this.
Judy Durkin:
Yes.
Jeremy:
Where does that success come from? Where does that student count come from?
Judy Durkin:
I'm not sure what Buzz would say, but I think it's because we had mostly adults, and I think all the students saw the value of what Buzz was teaching. The value to come in, have a good workout with friends. I mean, that's very important. I think they go hand in hand. You know, if you come in and you have a good workout, but you don't really care for anybody you're working out with, it's different. And you can't come in and just be have... a good time with friends if you're not getting a good workout. But I think they saw the value in the exercise, the self-defense part of it especially. And we always, always only taught traditional Okinawan karate. So there's a lot of tradition, which I think a lot of people liked, a lot of encouragement. And everything that we taught, they could bring out And I know this is like kind of sounds like every other school, but the focus, the determination, everything we taught is we do in the dojo, but it also carries on to our lives, our everyday lives.
Jeremy:
Yeah, and the other elements that I know just from talking with the two of you and your students and observing the way you train and teach, it's passion. It's
Judy Durkin:
Right.
Jeremy:
passion, it's dedication,
Judy Durkin:
Yeah.
Jeremy:
it's consistency. You said it multiple times, Buzz was teaching all the classes. Well that controls
Judy Durkin:
Yeah.
Jeremy:
the product. Why was that important to him? Because he loved
Judy Durkin:
Right.
Jeremy:
it, and because
Judy Durkin:
Yeehaw.
Jeremy:
he knew he was a great teacher.
Judy Durkin:
Exactly. Oh my god, Jeremy, he is, he is, he's a fabulous teacher
Jeremy:
You can't
Judy Durkin:
and he's
Jeremy:
be on the mat
Judy Durkin:
funny.
Jeremy:
with the
Judy Durkin:
I
Jeremy:
man and not enjoy yourself.
Judy Durkin:
know he's, he's funny. He knows how to get the message across and he can teach a traditional style for 50 years. We only evade kata, so it's not like he's, and nobody really feels like they need to learn anything. new because there's so much to learn in our style. But some people are not able to get that across and they leave their students wanting, like feeling like they're missing something. So they might add other things into the classes. But for us it's been the ACOT, all the kumites we have, exercises. Yeah and he just teaches it in a way that makes it so enjoyable.
Jeremy:
Yeah, for me, you know, it's have fun, make sure they have fun, and make sure they learn something, and in that order.
Judy Durkin:
Yeah.
Jeremy:
And I think a lot of schools flip that, and they make it about, as you hinted, you know, throwing form after form after form at someone because they're dangling the carrot of new material to keep people around, and that only lasts so long. But if it's fun and they enjoy who they're training with, well, now it's their family. And they'll
Judy Durkin:
Right.
Jeremy:
keep showing
Judy Durkin:
Yeah.
Jeremy:
up because people wanna hang out with family if they enjoy their family.
Judy Durkin:
Yep, yeah, exactly. And yeah, that's it. And so even though we think if we have all the forms down, you never really do, because there's always something to work on. There's always speed, power, speed, technique. That's another joke in the class. Work on power, speed, technique. And he asked one student one time, what... Did that, what were the three technique, what are the three objectives that we have in class? And she said, power, speed and technology. So everyone, the whole class burst out laughing. So if anybody in our dojo is watching, they're gonna know
Jeremy:
Hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe
Judy Durkin:
exactly who she was. But there's always something funny happening in class. So everybody always has a good time, but works so hard, works out very, very hard.
Jeremy:
I forget where I got this term from, but it came from a guest on the show, Sirius Fun.
Judy Durkin:
Oh yes, I like that. I like
Jeremy:
And
Judy Durkin:
that.
Jeremy:
I think that exemplifies it so well. And when I look at the schools, because I know you as I have had the opportunity to train in so many different places and be around so many different instructors.
Judy Durkin:
Mm-hmm.
Jeremy:
And I think that that's the simplest line I can draw between a great teacher and a great school and a less than great teacher or
Judy Durkin:
Yeah.
Jeremy:
school is serious fun.
Judy Durkin:
Yeah.
Jeremy:
So many places make it fun, but there's no seriousness to it. And so many places make it serious and even the instructors not having fun. And who wants that?
Judy Durkin:
I know. Yeah, you're right. You're right. I
Jeremy:
So
Judy Durkin:
like that.
Jeremy:
let's bring it back. So we were kind of walking through this timeline and you said, you and Buzz had moved to New Hampshire and 1988 you opened this big beautiful school that I know is celebrated. People talk about it.
Judy Durkin:
Mm-hmm.
Jeremy:
And I think the thing that's most interesting about 1988 is it wasn't yesterday, it was a little while ago.
Judy Durkin:
Mm-hmm.
Jeremy:
And. You're still going and you're still training and you're still passionate.
Judy Durkin:
Yeah, I know exactly Jeremy. And I wish I could like give you a secret or something about what, because we have grandparents bringing in their grandchildren, the grandparents having studied here when they were young. And it just keeps going on and on from generation to generation. And I think it's the value. You know, they see that what the children are getting and what their families are getting. Um, yeah, just the only reason, the only thing that I can, the only way I can explain it is the courage, the determination and everything that they use. And it all carries on into their regular life. So when, when way I can explain it, I guess, is, um, I was an operating room nurse for 48 years and in the dojo, I learned that. things I've said before, but how to assess situations, stepping back, observing, not, you know, I'm never too high or too low, always kind of balanced. And having, you know, getting called out of bed at 2 a.m. for a brain aneurysm or something, because I was in the neuro team. You know, your heart's racing, you can't breathe, and you're driving into Leahy Clinic in the middle of the night. But it's all my karate, and I think that's what the... student see too as the value of what we're learning. But it was on my karate, you know, focus, calm down, stay in control, get your breath under control, and then go over the steps that you're gonna take when you get to the operating room on what you'll do, how you'll perform.
Jeremy:
It's...
Judy Durkin:
So
Jeremy:
I mean,
Judy Durkin:
everything
Jeremy:
it's su-
Judy Durkin:
I learned in the dojo just carries over.
Jeremy:
Yeah, surgery is a form, it's a katha, right? You've gotta be in these
Judy Durkin:
Yeah.
Jeremy:
certain places and if you're operating on a brain, I mean, you've gotta be even more precise and talk about precision technique.
Judy Durkin:
there's a lot of similarities.
Jeremy:
But what about the other way? What did you take from your time in nursing that you brought back into the dojo?
Judy Durkin:
Oh, that's a good question.
Jeremy:
Everybody always asks that, you
Judy Durkin:
My
Jeremy:
know,
Judy Durkin:
stamina,
Jeremy:
one direction. Stamina. Okay? So,
Judy Durkin:
probably
Jeremy:
I'm going to go ahead
Judy Durkin:
my
Jeremy:
and start with
Judy Durkin:
stamina, but
Jeremy:
the first question.
Judy Durkin:
each one, each, everything goes both ways. You know, I mean, just the focus and the stamina of working out at the dojo also helped me stand for hours in an operating room, you know, up to 18 hours. Yeah, so I think it works both ways. But I would say that mentally, just the staying under control and controlling my breathing and figuring things out, you know, taking a step back, all that came from my karate and my training under Buzz.
Jeremy:
And, you know, one of the things you've mentioned a couple times is the traditional element, right? And we're at this
Judy Durkin:
Yeah.
Jeremy:
interesting time for martial arts where People are, I think, so often seeking efficiency, that they're stripping away things, that if we
Judy Durkin:
Yeah.
Jeremy:
take away this and that, we can spend more time on what's left, and that gets us to our goal maybe faster. And
Judy Durkin:
Right.
Jeremy:
I think we can probably leave some space for certain goals, if someone's goal is to be a cage fighter. then spending time in meditation might not be the most efficient way to get there. I think we could probably agree on that. But for most of us, when we think about life... martial arts as a kind of an ecosystem, as a whole training methodology. That stuff I think is pretty important. I know you would agree. And I'd like you to speak to that, especially since you've been training and teaching for a long time and you've seen what people look for and want change.
Judy Durkin:
Mm. Yeah, our traditionalism is very important to all of us. We do have we have students that are busy, they have families, they love their wei jiru and that's all they want to do. And then we but then we also have students who also study jiu jitsu, taekwondo, other, well, probably not taekwondo. I don't know why I said that, but other styles, mostly jiu jitsu and And that's good too. And there's nothing wrong with that. And they have, you know, everybody's blessing and off they go, they always come back. So they kind of blend both styles at their study and they'll blend their weijiru with their jiu jitsu. And they love it and they make it work. But I think most of our students just stick with weijiru because it seems to have everything that we all need. It has the exercise. which makes you feel good because of the endorphins. So you have the exercise, the body conditioning, the stretching, every single basic technique that you could want, the basic punches, kicks, blocks, and you can make them as advanced as you want. So weijiru for us seems to have, for most of us, seems to have everything that we need.
Jeremy:
You mentioned body conditioning, and this is one of the things that I don't know if this is a Weichi-Ru specific focus, or if it's your school that focuses on this, but I have never been around a group of people that like to beat on each other
Judy Durkin:
Yeah.
Jeremy:
for the sake of beating on each other more than your group.
Judy Durkin:
That's my favorite part.
Jeremy:
Well, so here's another brief anecdote. Last year when I saw you at that same event with Terry, you all did a session and there was some body conditioning in and we were banging forearms and
Judy Durkin:
I remember that.
Jeremy:
holy
Judy Durkin:
Ha ha
Jeremy:
cow.
Judy Durkin:
ha.
Jeremy:
And I know I could see from the look on your face and just the way you were moving, you weren't going hard. And I'm You know, I'm not a wimp.
Judy Durkin:
I hope I didn't go too hard on you.
Jeremy:
You didn't,
Judy Durkin:
I'm just kidding. I'm kidding.
Jeremy:
but still.
Judy Durkin:
Ha!
Jeremy:
It was very clear
Judy Durkin:
Whoa.
Jeremy:
that even your basic level showcased how much time. you put into this and as a philosophy, this is something that not every school has, especially today, right? It's one of the first things that I observed falling away with traditional martial arts training because until you've taken it to a certain point, it seems like it's difficult training simply for the sake of difficult training. And maybe you could speak to that.
Judy Durkin:
Yeah, no, I don't think it's just for the sake of physical training. It's, um,
Jeremy:
I agree.
Judy Durkin:
so we have eight forms and if it, I mean, the forms are beautiful. They can look very strong. They can look very dance-like. They're absolutely beautiful. But if you don't have a strong body, strong arms, strong legs, strong abdomen, strong lap muscles, you know, um, that a form really won't help you in self-defense. So you have to have a strong body to go along with the forms. And that's what we do. So we condition everything. The arms, the legs, the inside of the legs, the abdomen, the lats. That's what we do. And then sometimes Buzz will say, break everybody off for a few minutes and say, do whatever you feel like doing, do whatever you think you wanna do. immediately people will go for what they do best. Whether their arms are strong, they'll start like pounding each other's arms or their legs or a cot or whatever. But I think another important thing is that when that happens, I think you should you should work on also the things that you're not that good. They're not that strong. So maybe if your arms are stronger than your legs, work on your legs a little more.
Jeremy:
Well, let's imagine because I, you know, I'm envisioning the folks out there and quite a few of them would probably agree. Yeah, it makes sense that if my body is strong, you know, and not just in terms of the ability to generate force, not just, you know, how many push-ups I can do or how much weight I can move, but this idea of body conditioning and, you know, banging forearms or banging shins, that stuff hurts. And you don't just go zero to 60. How do you get people started as their white belts and introduce them to this? Because I imagine you've found ways that keep them from, because if you go too hard, they don't come back,
Judy Durkin:
Right,
Jeremy:
right? So
Judy Durkin:
exactly
Jeremy:
you ease them
Judy Durkin:
right.
Jeremy:
into it. What does that look like?
Judy Durkin:
Exactly right, Jeremy. So when we first had our little rental space, when we first opened up in 1974, people would come in, I mean, they would be conditioning arms and legs the first night. And some of them didn't come back. But the ones that loved it that were into that stayed. And, but then as the years went by, we realized Wajibu was so good for you. truly believe that. And the way to keep more people and to teach more people about it would be to like ease into things like the body conditioning. So we changed the way that we taught a little bit. So now there's really no conditioning until they reach green belt and then it just starts out very slowly and yeah you get bruises here and there but you never nobody should ever go home bruised all the time. So you build it up and you build it up and you build it up. Over the
Jeremy:
As,
Judy Durkin:
years, I'm not talking weeks.
Jeremy:
right,
Judy Durkin:
Over the
Jeremy:
no,
Judy Durkin:
years
Jeremy:
you don't adapt to that over
Judy Durkin:
and months.
Jeremy:
weeks. As my original instructor said, you know, it's far better learning how to experience that sort of pain and discomfort or take a shot here and there in class
Judy Durkin:
Right.
Jeremy:
than have it happen for the first time out
Judy Durkin:
Mm-hmm.
Jeremy:
on the street.
Judy Durkin:
That's true, and that's another thing in self-defense. We hit each other so hard in class that we're used to getting hit. So you're less to be shocked if you are in a self-defense situation.
Jeremy:
How has your training changed over the years?
Judy Durkin:
I would like to say that I got smarter and I go easier.
Jeremy:
Ha ha!
Judy Durkin:
I wish I could. I think BuzzWishes I could too. It's changed because I can appreciate, I really appreciate it now and I analyze it a little bit more now. I never, I'm not one to analyze, like some people learn a circular block and they analyze what the angle is and all this. I just. did what I was taught and I did everything as hard and as fast as I could. Yeah, but I think now I'm realizing, I haven't slowed down, but I realize that there's more beauty and there's more, looser is faster, looser is stronger and faster. I guess that's what I'm realizing. Before, I would be all tense. Every single thing I did, I tensed up. And still, but I was still fast, but I wasn't loose. And there's a big difference. So I'm trying to now
Jeremy:
So are
Judy Durkin:
be
Jeremy:
you faster now?
Judy Durkin:
faster, yeah.
Jeremy:
Wow,
Judy Durkin:
But I'm trying to be faster plus loose at the same
Jeremy:
yeah.
Judy Durkin:
time.
Jeremy:
You can always get faster,
Judy Durkin:
We
Jeremy:
right?
Judy Durkin:
can always
Jeremy:
That
Judy Durkin:
get
Jeremy:
economy
Judy Durkin:
faster.
Jeremy:
of motion and,
Judy Durkin:
Yeah.
Jeremy:
you know, it's interesting. Most of us have had that experience of working in early white belt. Maybe you were that early white belt,
Judy Durkin:
Mm-hmm.
Jeremy:
somebody out in the audience. And... You know, it tends to happen with big strong men, and they just try to muscle everything. And you can see them come
Judy Durkin:
Thanks
Jeremy:
in
Judy Durkin:
for
Jeremy:
a
Judy Durkin:
watching!
Jeremy:
mile away. And as they start to relax, they get faster. It just seems,
Judy Durkin:
Yeah, it's so true.
Jeremy:
it seems counterintuitive, but tense muscles can't move. If you
Judy Durkin:
Right.
Jeremy:
want to move anything, you've got to relax so it can move. But if
Judy Durkin:
Thank
Jeremy:
it's
Judy Durkin:
you.
Jeremy:
strong, it's stationary, and it's something people don't seem to.
Judy Durkin:
Yeah,
Jeremy:
pick up early on.
Judy Durkin:
I think what I learned is that fast is fast, but looser can also be stronger. And it doesn't, years ago I didn't understand that, but looser, staying loose is just as strong as being tense.
Jeremy:
It was two different kinds of power.
Judy Durkin:
Yeah, yeah.
Jeremy:
You know, you've got that kind of muscle power and then you've got the speed power, you know, that kind of snap. I think most of us have experienced the difference, you know, a big strong punch that lands on your chest. You know, it'll push you back, but a big strong snapped punch that lands on your chest, you feel it in your organs.
Judy Durkin:
Hmm, yeah.
Jeremy:
Can be very unpleasant. I'll take the one that pushes me any day.
Judy Durkin:
Right.
Jeremy:
Here's a question I don't ask often. What do you think life would have been like if your parents had not signed your brother up? If you had not met the martial arts school? If you had not met Buzz? What would the arc of your life look like?
Judy Durkin:
You know, I mean, no one knows and I can't say for sure, but I think the fact that I'm as balanced as I am, I'm as aware as I am, I don't, you know, go crazy, I don't go too high, too low, I'm in good shape. I don't think I would, honestly, I don't think I would be any of those. I've learned so much from the martial arts and from Buzz, and I can't even, yeah, I don't think I would be any of those if it wasn't for the martial arts. And I try to be mindful in everything I do. If we're in the dojo and we have four people attacking us, we're not thinking about what we're having for dinner or anything. So you're always where you are when you're in the dojo. So I think that's also taught me to be mindful of everything outside as well. Be where I am. pay attention to everything I'm doing.
Jeremy:
Do you enjoy teaching? I get the sense that you enjoy teaching.
Judy Durkin:
I enjoy, I do, I love teaching.
Jeremy:
Okay.
Judy Durkin:
I love it. I love teaching a small group. One or two people.
Jeremy:
Okay. So you're kind of preempting my question, which is great. I was going to ask you what you liked and who you like teaching. So why the small group versus the larger group?
Judy Durkin:
currently?
Jeremy:
What is it about work?
Judy Durkin:
I don't know. That's a good question. I'm not, I don't talk loudly. I'm not a yeller. So maybe to get people's attention, sometimes if it's a large group, I don't know. I
Jeremy:
And
Judy Durkin:
think
Jeremy:
how
Judy Durkin:
it's
Jeremy:
about...
Judy Durkin:
more
Jeremy:
Hmm...
Judy Durkin:
personal. It's more personalized for me with one or two people and
Jeremy:
How about...
Judy Durkin:
I can get my message across.
Jeremy:
I keep cutting you off, I apologize. I'm,
Judy Durkin:
That's all right. I'm cutting you
Jeremy:
uh,
Judy Durkin:
off.
Jeremy:
this is your episode, you can't cut me off. This is,
Judy Durkin:
Thanks
Jeremy:
this
Judy Durkin:
for
Jeremy:
is all
Judy Durkin:
watching!
Jeremy:
about you. Higher ranks or lower ranks?
Judy Durkin:
Um, both.
Jeremy:
Okay.
Judy Durkin:
If the, if it's a small group, um, you can work with each individual person and actually correct them on certain things. If it's a large group, and Buzz does a great job of this, the whole class will finish something and he'll be like, oh, so and so, you know, that back kick was blah, do this to make it better. And then he'll go to like five different people and tell them what they needed to work on.
Jeremy:
You had a whole list going.
Judy Durkin:
You had a whole list, yeah. But
Jeremy:
So
Judy Durkin:
I don't know.
Jeremy:
it's the details that you appreciate.
Judy Durkin:
Yeah, with a small group you can actually work with a person and make that kick better, make the block better. You would miss that with a lot of people in a larger class.
Jeremy:
And that makes sense being that you were in an OR nurse. It's a lot of detail
Judy Durkin:
Yeah,
Jeremy:
in there
Judy Durkin:
yeah, yeah.
Jeremy:
too. Okay.
Judy Durkin:
Yeah, good analogy.
Jeremy:
And that's probably why you enjoy kata. A lot of people don't enjoy kata because it's all about details and
Judy Durkin:
It is.
Jeremy:
no, move this a quarter of an inch.
Judy Durkin:
it
Jeremy:
And I love forms for that exact same reason, that there's always these fine tune adjustments
Judy Durkin:
Yeah.
Jeremy:
that you can make. And I think there's a lot of benefit in. learning how to make things better knowing they will never be perfect.
Judy Durkin:
Right,
Jeremy:
You're
Judy Durkin:
there's
Jeremy:
never
Judy Durkin:
always,
Jeremy:
going to check that box
Judy Durkin:
yeah,
Jeremy:
that it's
Judy Durkin:
always
Jeremy:
done.
Judy Durkin:
something to work on. But I so enjoy it, but we mix it up a lot too with pre-arranged sparring and sparring and all of that. And I love all that. That's, well, with everything, with the kajaran, the physical combative moves with a partner, you can get into a zone and that's all good.
Jeremy:
Now, I don't know the answer to this question, but I'm going to speculate. We talked when you started, you were one of maybe half a dozen women in a school of hundreds, pretty
Judy Durkin:
Mm-hmm.
Jeremy:
small percentage there, one to two percent. women, which is far below the average today. You know, it seems to be roughly 10% at most schools. But one of the things I've observed is that in martial arts schools where women have a prominent place, especially if it's a school owned by a woman, that number
Judy Durkin:
Yeah.
Jeremy:
is up higher, 50%. I've seen some schools that are women owned that are 60, 70% women.
Judy Durkin:
Hmm
Jeremy:
What's the breakdown in your school?
Judy Durkin:
The breakdown, let me,
Jeremy:
roughly.
Judy Durkin:
I, roughly, yeah, I'm gonna say 35, 40%. It's pretty good actually, it could even, I don't think it's 50, but it's not far below that. Yeah, it is. It's so good for women. I think every woman, every child, every woman, and every man should study the martial arts for all the benefits that we talked about.
Jeremy:
Now of course. we know those universal benefits. And I don't want this to turn into a... I don't want to take it in a direction that is disrespectful to women. Neither
Judy Durkin:
Mm-hmm.
Jeremy:
of us, I'm sure, are interested in that. But I know that... encouraging women to participate is something that's important to you. So I wonder if you might speak a little more about that, about maybe the things you've done in your school to make women feel comfortable, or the things that you've done in your marketing to encourage women to attend, and or things that you've done to keep them in the dojo once they've enrolled and they've been around a little while.
Judy Durkin:
Yeah, we've never had any trouble attracting women to the school. And I think that may have been because Buzz isn't the only one that opened it. We opened it together. So there was already a woman in the school. And actually way back when we first opened in like the mid 70s, some people would say, you know, you should teach an all-women's class. And that was a huge thing back then that people wanted us to do, but we didn't. I, you know, we were both against it because a woman's more likely to be attacked by a man than a woman. And it just, it just didn't make any sense to us. But I think because I was there and working out and helping teach that, um, we just, I don't know, women just came in and they were always made to feel comfortable. And I think event, and eventually, you know, they would tell their friends, but... It's so good for a woman's mindset, because I just read a study that women that study the martial arts, 50 to 60% less likely to be attacked. And I think it gives them the confidence and the mindset and that they can overcome a lot of things inside and outside the dojo. Yeah, so we never... And then we'd have husbands start and they'd bring their wives and, oh, my daughter should really be studying this.
Jeremy:
I think there's another aspect here that, about family, about, you know, you described it early on as friends. But I'm going to guess, again, this is pure speculation based on things you're saying, that you have a large percentage of your student enrollment that it's not just one person from the household.
Judy Durkin:
Right, we do. We have husbands and wives, we have a father and sons or father and daughters, mother and sons, and yeah, it's all families and at some at one point we might still have them, because I don't know every single student like Buzz does, but you know at one point we had like a grandfather, a parent, and then a grandchild all working
Jeremy:
generations.
Judy Durkin:
out.
Jeremy:
Oh, that's
Judy Durkin:
Yeah,
Jeremy:
great.
Judy Durkin:
so yeah. So that's happened several times.
Jeremy:
And I think there's really something to be said for the culture. And I'm going to guess that some of this comes back to some of that really challenging physical exercise component, but also the conditioning piece. Because I grew up in a school that did some of this.
Judy Durkin:
Mm-hmm.
Jeremy:
And there was a, and I don't mean this in an inappropriate way, but there's an intimacy to that. That if you're banging forearms with someone or you're banging shins with someone, you have to trust them. They have to trust you. You have to get on the same page very quickly or someone gets injured.
Judy Durkin:
Yeah, you're correct, Jeremy.
Jeremy:
And when you have an environment like that, where people are willing to literally bruise and at times bleed together, but knowing that it's done in a respectful way and for mutual benefit, there's something really powerful there. And I think this is one of the things that, again, has fallen away in a lot of martial arts schools today. And I think what we're talking about here is the benefit that comes on the other side of that. Somebody knows, you know what? Yeah, you're going to knock my child around in a way that is healthy for them, safe for them and makes them better. You're going to beat on my spouse. I know if I bring my spouse here, they're going to get their butt kicked from time
Judy Durkin:
Mm-hmm.
Jeremy:
to time. But in a way that is done with love and compassion.
Judy Durkin:
Right,
Jeremy:
because
Judy Durkin:
and benefits.
Jeremy:
we'd rather it happen here in a safe environment
Judy Durkin:
Okay.
Jeremy:
than out there when there's no recourse.
Judy Durkin:
Right, and it benefits them. Yeah, we don't do conditioning with the children. They have to be a certain age. But yeah, when you do like a considerable body conditioning with a partner, and you're right, it is powerful. And it's such a good feeling afterwards. And the two of you get into a zone and neither one is hurting the other one. But you're doing everything very hard. And yeah,
Jeremy:
Pain
Judy Durkin:
it's
Jeremy:
and hurt are
Judy Durkin:
a
Jeremy:
not
Judy Durkin:
good
Jeremy:
the same.
Judy Durkin:
feeling.
Jeremy:
Yeah. One of the things that I've observed is that your students have, your advanced rank students also have a passion for teaching.
Judy Durkin:
Mm-hmm.
Jeremy:
That they are quite happy to jump in and offer correction, to offer guidance, to offer their shins and forearms. And
Judy Durkin:
They love it. They love it.
Jeremy:
one of the things that can be really difficult in a school where you have such a remarkable instructor, as is your husband.
Judy Durkin:
Mm-hmm.
Jeremy:
is that there's there can often be a tendency to just let that go and everybody else is drinking from the fire hose and they never quite develop themselves as instructors. But I can't imagine that these advanced ranked students that you have became competent instructors just by accident and just by osmosis. There there must have been some intent in there over the years.
Judy Durkin:
Yeah, yes, there is Jeremy. So we have Marcus who works with us, has a storm team. So they train the young children to teach, you know, and they start out by standing up in front of the class and doing the 10 exercises. But for the advanced students we have that love to teach, I think they've learned a lot just by watching Buzz and then he'll break up the class sometimes over the years and One of them would take a little group and teach them. And they just evolved. We never had a teaching class. Oh, I'm sorry, I take that back. We did, we did. But now we just have the Storm Team members, the little kids who are learning how to teach and how to help the other children. But no, I think they learn from Buzz. And some of them
Jeremy:
Interesting.
Judy Durkin:
are just... love teaching anyway. I know I can't be more of a help with why you won that
Jeremy:
Well,
Judy Durkin:
one.
Jeremy:
I, you know, and it doesn't mean we answer all of these questions here. There's something you're doing right that, you know, I mean, you guys are doing a lot of things
Judy Durkin:
Yeah,
Jeremy:
right.
Judy Durkin:
and then sometimes over the years, Buzz will take, you know, he took days off here and there, not many,
Jeremy:
Yeah.
Judy Durkin:
but, and then one of them will step in and teach for him that day. Yeah, I think they learned from Buzz. And I know when a couple of them, years and years ago, wanted their own class to teach one night a week or something. And they would have a meeting before every class on what this person was going to teach and what to say, what not to say. So yeah, he did do that as well.
Jeremy:
So, so. I'm putting together the pieces. That makes sense. There's a lot of osmosis, and when you have a really exceptional teacher, you pick up a lot of what to do and what not to do when you're there. But there's
Judy Durkin:
I
Jeremy:
also,
Judy Durkin:
can see
Jeremy:
go ahead.
Judy Durkin:
you. No, I was going to say. In some of them teaching, I can see a little bit of buzz
Jeremy:
sure.
Judy Durkin:
here and there, things that buzz would say or do.
Jeremy:
But there's also, correct me if I'm wrong, when people are partnered up, it's not just low ranks with low ranks and high ranks with high ranks, you mix it up. And those higher ranks are not only there to be a body, but they are helping share
Judy Durkin:
Mm-hmm.
Jeremy:
that information. So they are teaching on
Judy Durkin:
Yes,
Jeremy:
an almost constant basis.
Judy Durkin:
correct, you're right. Yep, passing along what they learned and
Jeremy:
Yeah.
Judy Durkin:
trying to pay it forward. So they're helping a lower ring.
Jeremy:
And that makes sense from a family dynamic. Here I am in Vermont and I've had plenty of conversations with neighbors and folks around who grew up in these old farm families. And folks who don't live in rural America, you may not know that an old farm family might be four, six, eight, 12. The house across the street, I'm told 18 children. Well, if you have two parents, and one of them is out in the fields all day, and you know. mom of 18 is going to spend most of her time cooking and cleaning and mending clothes at that time,
Judy Durkin:
Mmm.
Jeremy:
who's doing the homework? Well, the kids are helping the younger kids, right? It becomes everybody helping everybody and that's the dynamic that's coming through. And it's pretty powerful because it's not just that you're learning, you're learning by teaching and you have a sense of ownership. And I suspect that culture goes back to, you know, 400 students in a town of 5,000.
Judy Durkin:
Mm-hmm.
Jeremy:
If you empower
Judy Durkin:
And then we.
Jeremy:
people, they'll try harder.
Judy Durkin:
Yes, correct. And then we hear funny stories about the men's room after class. People still teaching, teaching. Well, no, they're front kicking like they're showing each other their front kicking. So it never ends.
Jeremy:
It
Judy Durkin:
Even
Jeremy:
never
Judy Durkin:
walking
Jeremy:
ends.
Judy Durkin:
out the door, they're talking about their blocks and their kicks.
Jeremy:
Yeah, because they want to get better.
Judy Durkin:
Yes. It's a lot of fun.
Jeremy:
So what's coming? You've seen so many changes, you've been part of those changes and still held to tradition for obviously wonderful reasons that we've talked about. As we look out over the next however many years... What do you think's coming? And what do you think might stay the same? What do you think might, you might start to change in maybe how you teach? You know, have you given any thought to those subjects?
Judy Durkin:
Yeah I haven't because our teaching, the way Buzz teaches is basically the same as he's taught. There's more technology involved for sure. You know,
Jeremy:
Talk
Judy Durkin:
we
Jeremy:
about
Judy Durkin:
have,
Jeremy:
that.
Judy Durkin:
well, we have students that have moved away that we lost because they moved across the country. And then during COVID and everything when we had all the screens set up for the Zoom classes and which worked out great, by the way, it was unbelievable. We closed on a Saturday, March 2020, and everything was set up for the Zoom classes on Monday. And then the students that moved away found that they could continue to study, because now we had Zoom classes. And they're still back. They live across the country, but they're still studying.
Jeremy:
you're still running those classes.
Judy Durkin:
Yep, yep, not many, because
Jeremy:
Sure.
Judy Durkin:
everybody obviously is back to the dojo. But the people that had moved away for various reasons. back studying.
Jeremy:
they can still feel like they're part of it.
Judy Durkin:
Yeah, yeah.
Jeremy:
Awesome.
Judy Durkin:
But other than that, we're coming up on our 50th anniversary next year of Buzz's Awa Dojo's.
Jeremy:
50 years
Judy Durkin:
50
Jeremy:
in a
Judy Durkin:
years.
Jeremy:
school.
Judy Durkin:
So other than a big celebration, and there's a lot planned for that, I think everything will just go on the way it's been going.
Jeremy:
I suspect if we were to dig in, if we were to find a way to grab a time capsule from then, my guess is we would see that the teaching methods haven't changed a whole lot, but how the stuff around it was implemented probably was.
Judy Durkin:
such as I'm not sure what you mean.
Jeremy:
I don't know what I don't know, you know, but the world's changed a lot in 50 years and for you to
Judy Durkin:
Okay.
Jeremy:
remain successful, I'm sure you've made some adjustments maybe in the way you handle enrollment or contracts or marketing, you know, who knows? There's some stuff in there, but
Judy Durkin:
Yeah.
Jeremy:
I think that part is less important than remaining committed to the piece. to the style of training and the system of training that you're passionate about.
Judy Durkin:
Correct.
Jeremy:
That's the thing that keeps coming through to me when you're
Judy Durkin:
And yeah,
Jeremy:
talking.
Judy Durkin:
and to that you can include remaining committed to the students we have. I mean, it's always nice to get new students. And we did do a lot of marketing at the beginning. Buzz was a business major in college. She graduated with a master in business from BC. But so obviously when we moved up here, there were no karate schools. So we did marketing and, but then, but now there's it's all word of mouth. You know, parents bring in their kids and their friends and, you know, I want to study karate. Who should I go to? Well, go to Buzz Dirk and there's nobody else. There are other people, but in their minds, there's nobody else.
Jeremy:
And that's the dream to have someone who sees the value in what you do that is that passionate, that 50 years later they...
Judy Durkin:
Yeah,
Jeremy:
they still
Judy Durkin:
and
Jeremy:
love it in the same
Judy Durkin:
he's
Jeremy:
way that you do.
Judy Durkin:
still passionate, as well as the people that work with us and the students.
Jeremy:
Do you think you'll ever stop?
Judy Durkin:
Oh God, no. No. That would be like asking Buzz if he would ever stop. No, it's too helpful, it's too beneficial. I would miss all my friends. I love my people, all my people at the Dojo.
Jeremy:
I'm gonna split a question that I often ask. Actually, before I do that. Website, social media, if people wanna get ahold of you, ask you some questions, follow you guys online, wherever they go.
Judy Durkin:
Yeah, we do have a website, but Facebook is really our go-to.
Jeremy:
Okay.
Judy Durkin:
It's where we post all the goings on and all the information, everything that we're doing, any events or anything. And I think there are like three different Facebook pages. One's buzzes, private one, and then there's two dojo Facebook pages.
Jeremy:
Okay. All right. And I'm looking in my notes. I don't have links. So I'm going to just make a note here for us to put those in the show notes.
Judy Durkin:
Yeah,
Jeremy:
Judy Durkin:
friends
Jeremy:
links
Judy Durkin:
and
Jeremy:
and
Judy Durkin:
students,
Jeremy:
school pages.
Judy Durkin:
friends and students of Buds Durkin's karate school and Buds Durkin's karate school. I think those are them.
Jeremy:
So we're gonna wrap here in a moment. I just wanna remind everyone, if you wanna check out the show notes, whistlekickmartialartsradio.com. Please, if you enjoyed this episode, share it around. Let people know what we're doing. If you've got a guest suggestion, don't be afraid to fill out the form at the website. And feel free to support us at our
Judy Durkin:
Thanks
Jeremy:
mission
Judy Durkin:
for
Jeremy:
to connect,
Judy Durkin:
watching!
Jeremy:
educate, and entertain any way that seems appropriate. But Judy, it's up to you to close us out here. So... given that we have both school owners who I'm sure are. jealous of what you guys have been able to do and students who are also jealous, I suspect, of your persistence in what you have done. You know, whether addressing them individually or together, you know, what advice or thoughts or encouragement or anything might you offer to them as we wrap up today?
Judy Durkin:
I would, well, obviously love what you do. You have to love what you do. You have to love your students. Don't forget about your present students just because you may want new students to come in. Make every class a good workout and fun. And it has to be joyful. And it has to show that you love what you're doing, that you love your martial arts. If the teacher loves what... he's teaching or she's teaching, that makes a huge difference. And I think most of the martial arts instructors that I know, that always does come across. I'm really, I don't much have too much to do in the business end of the school. But I just know that every student that comes in feels very welcomed. And their family, and they leave like, I know what, so we had one student years ago, he said. You know, he said, I was on my couch, comfortable with my cat, comfortable with my dog. I came in here feeling like 50 bucks and out the door, he said, and I'm leaving feeling like a million bucks. So if you can make them feel better when they leave than when they came in, whether it was a good workout or something funny, good friends, I think that makes a huge difference.