Episode 848 - Hanshi Carl Long

Today's epsiode is a chat with Hanshi Carl Long, who attained black belts in many styles before focusing his attention predominantly on Iaido (or Iaijutsu), the art of Samurai swordsmanship.

“Each one of those men knew that the art was more important than they were. That's why you have today what you have, due to their sacrifices and their time.”

Hanshi Carl Long - Episode 848

Join us on this podcast episode, where martial arts isn't just about kicks and punches – it's a journey that reveals the best and sometimes the unexpected in us.

Hanshi Carl Long, whose martial arts journey started at the ripe age of 12, had a father, a Korean War veteran, who brought a karate instructor to their local area. He started his training in Okinawan Shorin Ryu Karate.

But the martial arts passion runs deep in Carl's family. His grandfather was a Golden Gloves boxer, and they shared an unbreakable bond. Back in the '50s and '60s, martial arts were the rage among rough-and-tumble young adults and kids. Karate classes were hardcore, with military-style training both on and off the base. It was the wild, wild world of martial arts!

Carl Long has since trained in many styles since, now focusing his attention predominantly on Iaido (or Iaijutsu), the art of Samurai swordsmanship and firmly believes that martial arts is a filter, allowing only the best to rise to the top.

So, whether you're a seasoned martial artist or just someone curious about self-discovery through martial arts, join us as Carl Long shares his captivating journey. It's a testament to the power of martial arts, where the best of us shines through, and sometimes, surprises await just around the corner!

Show Notes

You can find out more about Hanshi Carl Long at:

www.knbk.org

Instagram : knbksoshihan

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Show Transcript

Jeremy:

Hey everybody welcome this is Whistlekick martial arts radio and today I'm joined by my wonderful guest here Carl Long Hanshi Carl Long and we're about to get into it but before we do that just a couple quick things for you to think about head on over to Whistlecake.com for all the things that we do here at Whistlekick because it's more than just this podcast we connect educate and entertain all of you around the world no matter what you do and if you want to go deeper on this episode or any of the episodes that we do please go to whistlekickmarshallartsradio.com. Carl sent me some photos, and we're gonna have those up there. And who knows what else comes out of this episode that we're gonna have over there. But without further ado, thanks for being here. I

Carl Long:

Thank

Jeremy:

appreciate

Carl Long:

you very

Jeremy:

you coming

Carl Long:

much.

Jeremy:

on.

Carl Long:

Nice to meet you

Jeremy:

Yeah,

Carl Long:

finally, Jeremy.

Jeremy:

yeah, it's nice to meet you as well. This is one of the interesting challenges, I guess we'll call it, of what I do, in that by the time the guest gets here, They've had like six email conversations with Andrew. And they come on, I've even had people come on there, you're not Andrew, they were expecting Andrew. You don't get Andrew, you get me.

Carl Long:

that's okay. I don't know what your preconceptions are either, but you get me too.

Jeremy:

Hahaha!

Carl Long:

So we're both in the same boat there.

Jeremy:

Yes, yeah, and honestly I like that because it means that I get to put myself in the place of the audience and that's something that early on in this show people were really surprised. I don't research. You know, I look at the guest form and this is a bit of behind the scenes for the audience as well. I skim the guest form, give me a little bit of context for what's going on, but I don't go and research because the audience isn't going to research before they watch or listen. So I'd rather that I show up as close to their seat as possible. Because that means I can do the best job I can, which is sharing your story with them. It's not about sharing your story with me. You've probably seen interviews where the interviewer tries to impress the guest by asking some tiny specific question about something that happened this one day 40 years ago that nobody was supposed to know about that, honestly nobody cares.

Carl Long:

I'm not expecting any gotcha questions, so

Jeremy:

That's

Carl Long:

hopefully

Jeremy:

not how I do.

Carl Long:

we can move forward from there. I'm familiar with your program. A few of my students have been on and spoke with you before.

Jeremy:

Let's get those names out there.

Carl Long:

So Eric Johnstone from

Jeremy:

Of

Carl Long:

Rhode

Jeremy:

course.

Carl Long:

Island and Matt Ubertini from New York City. A friend of mine who actually introduced us with Andy was Andy Rodriguez.

Jeremy:

Mm-hmm.

Carl Long:

And Andy was suggesting that maybe this might be something that we'd be interested in.

Jeremy:

Andy has put forward a few great guests lately. So shout out to Andy, great guy. I've had the chance to hang out and chat with these names that you're talking about. You're in good company. These are wonderful people that you sit around yourself with.

Carl Long:

I'm very fortunate to have met some spectacular people, as I'm sure you have too, martial arts. We just attract the best kind of people.

Jeremy:

I think we do, and I think especially as people remain in trading, assuming that they are in a positive environment, because sadly not all martial artists are in positive environments, that the ones who are not there for good reasons that don't want to become better people seem to wash out. There's a bit of self-selection going on there.

Carl Long:

I like to say people often tell me, you know, Carly, you know, martial arts can take bad people and turn them into good people. And my answer to that has always been, I don't really believe that. I believe that martial arts is a good filter

Jeremy:

Mmm.

Carl Long:

and it brings out the best in people and it brings out, also it can reveal the worst in people. So hopefully the process, the training process is a filtering process and that only the best rise to the top.

Jeremy:

Yeah, I would certainly agree with that. Now, if you're naming those names that you've named and the audience hasn't seen your guest form, I've seen some of these credentials behind your name and they suggest that you've been training a little while.

Carl Long:

Yeah, I've been out here for a while.

Jeremy:

So maybe we can kind of go back to your origin story and what was it that got you started on your martial arts journey?

Carl Long:

Well, it's a long story, obviously, because I'm an old guy. My father was stationed in Korea and was a paratrooper and was injured on a jump. And he spent a year and a half in Japan. And so he fell in love with the Japanese people, the Japanese arts. And when he came home, he was insistent that his... his eldest son would be able to count to 10 in Japanese at the same time he was learning to count to 10 in English. And so that was a bit of my start. And he was, he sponsored a karate instructor to come teach in the local area when he found out that young man had come back from Okinawa. And at the age of 12, 1968, he enrolled me in that class. And from there it was just... Shōron Rū Karate, practice Shōron Rū Karate from 1968 on. And well, actually I started off with Shōtokan and then transferred to Okinawa Shōron Rū. And then in that period of time, I've studied some Aikido, some Aikijujutsu, obviously sword technique, Japanese sword, Muso-jikidai, Shōron Rū, Shindō-musurū, Jōjutsu, and other Japanese Kobudo.

Jeremy:

So if we go back to 1968 there, was this 100% your father's wish or were

Carl Long:

Well,

Jeremy:

you

Carl Long:

not

Jeremy:

also

Carl Long:

actually.

Jeremy:

interested?

Carl Long:

Not actually. It was, my father was the eldest of 12 children and my grandfather, his father, was a Golden Gloves boxer. And so I was the eldest grandchild. So I had uncles that were five and six years older than I was. And as they say, things run downhill. And In my grandfather's house, when they were all farm boys, when they would come home at the end of the day, they were all forced to put on the boxing gloves and fight my grandfather before they were allowed to have dinner. Well, as they got older and moved out, and I was there occasionally, I was the next in line and I was tired of getting my butt kicked. And my father thought it might be a good idea to get me some formal training.

Jeremy:

Now, I'm curious, this is a little bit of a detour where we'll probably go. I would imagine that your feelings on that experience as a child may have changed now as you've come through life. Do you see that a little bit differently? Because I'm sure if I was a young kid and my grandfather was beaten on me with boxing gloves, I wouldn't find that enjoyable or pleasant and probably would strain my relationship with him.

Carl Long:

You know, my grandfather and I had a great relationship. My father and I had a wonderful relationship. My uncle and I had a good relationship. I just always knew where my place was and it was at the bottom of the pecking order. And at the time, again, you know, Jeremy, it was a different time. You know, the 60s and 50s were a different time. As a matter of fact, most of the people that came to martial arts, if they were young adults or adults at that time, had a bit of a rough and tumble background. Not so much like it is today. And so you were, even in the karate classes, it was pretty hardcore. The instructors had done the military style martial arts when they were in Japan, usually on base or then going to the dojos that were off base. And so they were treated pretty rough. And so that's how we started. That's what I expected. Today, it'd be very difficult probably to run a commercial dojo that way, but that's the way it was. It was the norm at the time. So it didn't really, didn't really. phase me, you know you were pretty toughened up by the time you got into the dojo so it wasn't bad.

Jeremy:

So it's almost as if you hadn't had that experience before and you might not have made it. You might have washed out yourself.

Carl Long:

That's very true, especially as a 12 year old, right? And moving into a class then with mostly, you know, military age guys and some tough biker kind of guys. And there weren't a lot of ladies studying at that time locally. It was mostly all the young guys that had, you know, watched all the movies, watched Bruce Lee and the Green Hornet and all that type of thing. And wanted to get involved. So, you know, Hollywood obviously was... just starting to pick up a lot of the Japanese and Asian martial arts at that time. So it was attracting a different type of person.

Jeremy:

Were you the only kid?

Carl Long:

I'm sorry?

Jeremy:

Were you the only kid?

Carl Long:

I was the youngest at that time. A few of the older high school kids were training. It was, again, all my seniors, right? And I was happy to follow them wherever they told me to go, whatever they told me to do. And obviously over a period of time, what happens is you- keep looking at the line on the side and the line on the one side gets shorter and the line on the other side gets longer and you become one of the seniors at that point. That's the way it started. There weren't a lot of schools around the area. And as you know, at that time, with very few dojo, very few instructors in the US, you went to the place that was the closest and most available to you. And I think probably even today, that's where most people start, the place that's most available, geographically, the place that mom and dad will take them or the place that's available to you as an adult.

Jeremy:

Now we've had more than enough examples on the show to know that when someone talks about training in different styles as you foreshadowed when we first started chatting that you've trained in a variety of different things. Those are story points. There's some reason there. Now I'm going to guess that most of the later ones if I said why did you do this it's some variation of well because I wanted to learn this. But if we go back, you said you started with Shotokan and then transitioned to Okinawa and Shōren-ryu, I'm guessing that that's not the reason there, that there was something a little more substantive that led

Carl Long:

So

Jeremy:

to that change.

Carl Long:

going back to the beginning again, as a very young child growing up, I had a fascination with bladed weapons, swords, and as I was growing up there weren't a lot of the martial arts movies, but there was a lot of swashbuckling movies with Errol Flynn and And so as a child, I'd make wooden swords and whatnot. And my mother would always have to scold me for fighting with my brother. And so that was kind of put on a back burner. Then I started taking the Shotokan karate. After a few years doing Shotokan, I met an instructor. I was actually working a summer job. I was working with him. He'd just come back from the army. was teaching a Sean Rue class and he invited me to come over and take a look at what he was doing. And when I saw the effectiveness and the applications, I was extremely impressed with what was going on and I really said, that's for me, that's what I want to do. And so that was my introduction to a gentleman, his name was Jay McHenry and then to his instructor, Gary Rogers. and right on back to John Nash and finally Heizo Shimabukuro in Okinawa, Japan. I did that for a long, long time right up and through into the last decade. In the process of all that I saw that my teachers could do certain things that I wasn't capable of doing and then when I started seeing some of the other arts I thought you know I think that would be a good addition to help me do what I already do better. And

Jeremy:

Can

Carl Long:

so,

Jeremy:

you give an example? You remember any

Carl Long:

for

Jeremy:

specifics?

Carl Long:

example, my Shonroo teachers, John Nash in particular from Dallas, Texas, he had a movement, a Tai Sabaki, a movement, a body movement that was so smooth and so fast and yet so simple. And the first time I was exposed to watching an Aikido demonstration, I'm like, that's the kind of movement he uses. There's a lot of... you know, offline movement and blending and receiving, and not a lot of brute force and awkwardness. And so I decided to start doing that when I was in Dallas, Texas with a teacher down there. And over a period of time, continued, I got fascinated with Okinawan weapons, obviously, and started doing the Okinawan Kobudo, which then also I was introduced to a... to a friend of mine who was actually doing sword early on in the 80s, in the 1980s, and he was doing a style of swordsmanship that, looking back on it, again, it was one of those things, it's close, it's what you're exposed to, it's what you can do. And so I started doing some Kenjitsu and sword with them, and they were also doing some Ikejiu Jitsu. I studied with that group for a while, and then I met my teacher in the early 1990s. I was exposed to... Masayuki Shimabukuro who invited me to come to San Diego to train in what he called Muso Jigiden Aishinru, Iaido, swordmanship. And you know there's a bit of a funny story with that. I had a flyer that was sent to me first and

Jeremy:

Because this is before the internet remember everyone there was there's

Carl Long:

It was

Jeremy:

a

Carl Long:

all

Jeremy:

time.

Carl Long:

before the internet.

Jeremy:

There's

Carl Long:

You

Jeremy:

a

Carl Long:

guys,

Jeremy:

time

Carl Long:

I mean

Jeremy:

before

Carl Long:

it

Jeremy:

you

Carl Long:

was before

Jeremy:

found

Carl Long:

the internet.

Jeremy:

out Before

Carl Long:

And,

Jeremy:

Facebook we had

Carl Long:

right.

Jeremy:

to hand out flyers and send letters to know what was going on with our tree Sorry

Carl Long:

I was sitting here at this desk, as a matter of fact, and my phone rang. And this sweet little Japanese lady's voice came on the phone and says, is this Carl Lung Sensei? I said yes, and she goes, my name is Kako Lee, I'm from San Diego, and I'm calling from Masayuki Shimabukuro, and we were wondering if you had gotten our flyer to come to our seminar. And my wife was actually standing here right behind me, and the wife's being wise, meaning what they hear, it says, who is on the phone? And I said, oh, it's some people. She goes, from where? I said, San Diego. And so I'm like, well, I don't know. I don't know if I can make it. You know, it's only a month away. It's San Diego and Pennsylvania. And my wife is rustling through the piles of stacks of paper on my desk and she holds up the flyer and she said, this one? And I said, yeah, that one. She goes, just go. said, really? She goes, just go. And so I have the phone and I said to her, I said, just go to San Diego? She said, the piles on your desk have changed for the last three months and you've kept this flyer on your desk for the last three months and it's never been tossed out. It's meant to be. And so I went and I met Shambhu Kural Sensei. I trained with him for four days. And on the final day, he asked me to go to dinner with him. I went to dinner with him. And he treated me like no one had ever treated me before. He asked for absolutely nothing. And to be honest, Jeremy, he showed me something that I hadn't seen any... anything before. He showed me compassion in a way that I'd never been treated that way before, but also it was a side of me that needed work. And I know that he treated me better than I would have probably treated someone in the same situation. And I said, if I can't learn anything else from this man, I can learn that. I can learn how to be a better person and how to treat people well. And that was the beginning. That was the beginning of my true swordsmanship apprenticeship with him.

Jeremy:

Did he treat everyone like that? Or

Carl Long:

Everyone.

Jeremy:

did he give everyone?

Carl Long:

Shumab Kuro Sensei was an absolutely incredible human being. He'd been training his teacher, Miura Takeyuki, who was a 20th generation grandmaster of his line of swordsmanship. And to be honest, the way he met Miura Sensei was Shumab Kuro Sensei was a young, strong karateka, and he was going to a kickboxing match with his friend. He's a bit of a street kid, real tough guy. And on his way there, he said, you know, I'd like to introduce you on the way to the kickboxing to introduce you to my teacher. And he said, okay. So, Myura Sensei was a Shinto priest. So, as they were walking to the dojo, to the Jinja, the Shinto shrine, he saw the priest coming toward him. Immediately, this is an elderly gentleman who immediately bowed to him. And in Japan, it would normally be... You know, the student would have a tendency to bow first, but Nura-sensei was not that kind of man, he was very humble. And he was... Shimbō Kuro-sensei, my teacher, was embarrassed at that time. That he couldn't believe that this great swordsman of Japan would show him such respect and honor before he was able to do the same. And he said, this is something I need to do. For the same reason, he showed him respect and compassion that he'd never given before.

Jeremy:

And how... because I can hear the emotion as you're telling this story. And interestingly enough, the way you told the part that you weren't even present for sounds like it means even more to you because it's... I'm guessing because it started that line, it created that opportunity, it ultimately led to you receiving that respect. I'm guessing that was pretty pivotal. I'm guessing that changed... not only how things were going, but how you treated other people. Have you paid that forward? Is this part of your code, your BUDO?

Carl Long:

You know, it's interesting that you would say that, that seems to have been always part of this line. And this Koru, this ancient tradition, I was able in the last few decades, be able to reach back into some of the old texts and books and writings of our teachers going back through, including some history that have written by their families, by their children. And the messages that were passed along were passed along for the last 400 years. And with the same philosophy, the same idea of compassion, the same idea of, uh, of lifting people up through being the kind of person, setting the example, uh, this is not something that just happened with one or two men. This has been going on for 22 generations.

Jeremy:

That is powerful, that is an honor, but I'm also kind of feeling this weight of responsibility of being able to pass that on and not be the one that breaks that tradition.

Carl Long:

You know, that's a great insight, you know, because we have the martial end of all this, right? I mean, we can't forget we're doing martial arts here. And so in 500 years, in 500 years... History changes, you know, the times change, the eons change and... The original inspiration, the original philosophy of the founder, each generation of leadership, it's their job to preserve what the founder's original intention was, but at the same time to make the martial art relevant for the moment and for the time that we're practicing it. This isn't what we do. We have what's called kourou. developed before the Meiji restoration, 1868 in Japan. And so through that entire period of peace time in Japan and through the war, through the modern day, each generation has had to make this art relevant for the time without lessening its effectiveness as a martial art. And so that what we call inen, rinen, is the philosophy of the art that must be relevant for this moment. And the idea being that if the man who's appointed to be in charge has been close to the past Grand Master or what we call Sochihan, General Master, his Budo, his martial art, has the same DNA. And that DNA gets passed on. And so even if Even if the successor is a little bit disagrees with what was going on, when he makes the decision, he makes the right decision because he comes from the same DNA. He comes from the same place. He understands why it was meant to be the way it is today and is then entrusted with passing that message on and passing on the art and the technique and all the things that go with that. without disturbing it and changing it. If there's a change in the inner demon, if there's a change in the philosophy, then it's no longer the same art. It is what we call ha or divergence.

Jeremy:

I want to talk about that change over time because I think that's an important subject. But I want to go back and I want to ask because you touched on something that I don't think the majority of our guests have had and that is a spouse who I'm going to guess does not train just in the way that was conveyed, but understands why it is so important to you.

Carl Long:

Well, actually my wife has been training since the early 80s and we actually met in the dojo.

Jeremy:

Okay.

Carl Long:

She actually

Jeremy:

I was wrong.

Carl Long:

trained Kung Fu before she had come to study karate with me. She studied Kung Fu here locally. We had a very good Kung Fu group here. There was a Rothrock school here, and I understand Cynthia Rothrock. I mean, he made it hard for Cynthia. Cynthia was right here in town. She's a, we used to compete together. And my

Jeremy:

She's

Carl Long:

wife

Jeremy:

a

Carl Long:

was

Jeremy:

wonderful

Carl Long:

kind of,

Jeremy:

person. She's

Carl Long:

yeah,

Jeremy:

been

Carl Long:

Cindy

Jeremy:

on

Carl Long:

was

Jeremy:

the show,

Carl Long:

what was

Jeremy:

so kind.

Carl Long:

that? She was actually my wife's first martial arts teacher.

Jeremy:

Oh cool.

Carl Long:

Yeah.

Jeremy:

Okay.

Carl Long:

And so, yeah, she understands the passion and she understands the responsibility. Uh, I couldn't have been able to do what I, what I've done all these years, as you know, without the support of a, of a. spouse who understands.

Jeremy:

Awesome. Well, I want to go back to that. I want to talk about your relationship a little bit more in a moment, but you talked about this responsibility of the, and we'll just generically use the term grandmaster, the person who has the job of taking the system. And I don't think you use this word, but. I hope it's permissible that I do kind of modernize it, give it that little bit of adjustment for the current world. And you've been training from doing my math, right? 55 years. And it, where have you seen those changes and are, what are you thinking about yourself as how things need to be changed, adapted, modernized, whatever word seems to work best. as we move forward from here.

Carl Long:

So, it's not just, you know, it's interesting. It's not just the times that change, obviously, right? It's the, sometimes the times are forced upon us. You know, samurai were no longer samurai. There were no more samurai class in Japan and they had to find another way of teaching it after that. During the expansionism and... the Japanese expansion in the Pacific Asian Rim near early 1900s. It became another different animal altogether as well. The focus, and this is what my teacher told me before he passed away, which is about 11 years ago, almost to today. He always said, our job is not to teach everyone. Our job is to grow capable leaders who are lions. Because there are a lot of followers in the world that are going to wanna do this martial art, but it's the lions that have to lead. And if you have a, and I don't not to be disparaging, it wasn't disparaging when he said it, he said, but you have a flock, you know, you have sheep and someone's gotta guard those sheep, someone's gotta take care of it. But it's not just the sheep, it's also. the art itself. The art is also part of it. So you have what we call shi te ai. Shi te ai is, for a better term, it means the love between a teacher and a student and the art that they process together. Because it has to be all three. It has to be teacher, student, and art form. And the teacher and student develop a relationship and their passion is the art to keep it alive. One is a steward in the present generation. One will be the steward of the art in the next generation. The difficult to get to your question, the difficult job is to create lions who, obviously you want lions to protect the sheep from other lions, right? But you want lions with compassion because the problem with a lion is if they get hungry, they'll eat their own sheep, which means they'll take advantage of their students and they'll change their art. to make it more comfortable for them and their lives. The key is to be a lion that's willing to starve to death and do the right thing to preserve the art, to help the students and make this relevant to their lives and their families and the community at large. You know, samurai were born into a caste system. This came at a time, was developed at a time when samurai were born into a system where it meant to serve, samurai means to serve. And they were born into a caste system what we call ongiri or duty and obligation to repay something that they cannot repay, to repay their privilege. And that was to protect and serve at other people in the community. And so the arts that they learned from the time they were three years old on were in order to preserve, to protect, to pay back the ongiri to the rest of society. And so that is part of what we still try to do in maintaining that, letting our people know that this is very special. The fact that you and I have been doing martial arts makes us pretty privileged. You know, we have to have gratitude. We have to have a little bit of humbleness in knowing that there, but for the grace of God, maybe I couldn't do this. And... We were born in a situation where there was a teacher that we found that, you know, I'm sure you and I have both had many teachers in our lives. Some of them spectacular people, some of them humans, like everyone else,

Jeremy:

I was wondering how you were going

Carl Long:

like

Jeremy:

to contrast

Carl Long:

me.

Jeremy:

that. Yes.

Carl Long:

And they try to bring out the best in us. And we don't look for them to be perfect. We look to them. I tell my students all the time, we have 22 generations of Sochihan now at this point, throughout the years. And I tell them, can you name all 22 of those men? And most of them look at me like maybe two or three. I said, can you name the names of the forms and go through the steps they left for you for the last 500 years? And they're like, well, of course. I said, because each one of those men knew that The art was more important than they were. And that's why you have today what you have due to their sacrifices and their time. So hopefully, getting back to what my teacher said, he said, Carlson, my job is not to teach everyone martial arts, my job is to replace myself. and I try to tell my students that all the time. Your own giri, your duty and obligation is you can quit whenever you want to except you've got to at least bring someone up to your level to take your place and then you've repaired that own giri and that's how to gratitude.

Jeremy:

that is a very simple and yet very powerful sentiment and one that I don't think I've ever heard expressed so eloquently.

Carl Long:

Thank you.

Jeremy:

The idea that you have a responsibility to bring in someone, you know, if you're going to train of little, yeah, it's pretty simple to bring someone to where you are. If you're going to train a lot, if it's going to change your life and then to abandon that. Yeah. That's gonna turn some wheels for me for a little while. Thank you for that. I appreciate it.

Carl Long:

I think particularly because I've done now the modern arts, what we call Gendai or Gendai arts and I've done the Kodaru arts, but I guess you could draw a different distinction of what we call the Bugei versus the Minggei. the warrior class that were never meant for self-defense. They were meant for doing a warrior's job. You know, versus a mingei. Mingei is a, so bugei, bu means martial, gei means art or technique. And mingei, mingei means folk art. For example, karate is a folk art. It came from the, we did have a... some aristocratic people doing it but it was actually in Japan called mingei. Today we call it a budo but it comes from the mingei. So it has a different sense of obligation, one not better than the other. Just that one is for a warrior standpoint where you and I, facing on a battlefield, I respect you because that's your job. You know, two soldiers meeting on the battlefield, there's that mutual respect that My job is to protect my family, my country, and yours is to do the same for you, and the ideals that you express. The Mingge, or the Gendai Budo, we like today think of learning to protect ourselves, but again, more in a defensive action, or protecting our families, but not in a military sense. You know, we usually think good guy, bad guy, right? And... So it has a little bit different approach, particularly early on in the last century, it was different and it really, that distinction really started to come about, I think in Japan and outside of Japan after the Second World War. After the Second World War, they had what was called the Scat Band in Japan where all martial arts were no longer practiced for a period of time. And the Japanese people themselves, blamed the old samurai ethic for having gotten them in the problems that they had, they were suffering. And so in order to restart their Budo after the scat ban was lifted, the old teachers got together and said, you know, we can propagate this now in Japan and throughout the world by showing that it's good for humanity. It's good exercise, it's good physical training, but it's also a good spiritual and moral training for the next generation. And so the Budo that happened prior to the Second World War and after the Second World War has been quite an evolution to where even some of the Koryu, some of the old styles and some of the Gendai, the modern martial arts, karate, the... Aikido, the Judo, all those arts took on an idea of self-actualization and becoming a better person and more fitness oriented for the masses. And so I think... It's easier now because everyone understands that this is a, well, and I'm an old guy, so I'm a little bit set my ways too. Through the 60s and 70s, as we said before, you had a lot of tough people

Jeremy:

Yeah.

Carl Long:

that wanted to do this, and it evolved where it was an art for everyone, as it should be today, I believe. And then it became... literally art for our children, through teens, to the elderly. And that has changed the way we teach. That has changed the way our schools, our clubs, our dojos operate. It changes Hollywood, which is, you know... The great advertiser of martial arts in the world, right?

Jeremy:

For good or for bad.

Carl Long:

For good or for bad.

Jeremy:

Have you always been this thoughtful of a person?

Carl Long:

Um, well.

Jeremy:

Because here's why I ask, you know, I'm... You may be able to tell just from the role that I have here, I enjoy thinking about martial arts just as much as I enjoy doing martial arts. I'm taking notes, they'll become things that we do with the episode, but they're also things that I go back and I think about myself, and I know I'm not the only one who takes notes when they listen to an episode. But I'm not used to having people on the other side, so to speak, who I get the sense have spent a good deal of time mentally and emotionally processing martial arts as it fits into their lives and their students' lives and their instructors' lives and the lives of the world at large. But I think that is how I might describe you at this point.

Carl Long:

I only know my teacher's martial art. I only know my teacher's Budo. I only know the message that my teacher taught me. And thankfully, my teachers communicated well. And they spoke English. The Japanese teachers I had spoke English. You know, the concepts that I read about in martial arts magazines and books. or explained to me in everyday terms how they should fit in our lives and be processed in our martial art. They weren't just concepts. And so my role, I say for example, my teachers, I trained with both Miura Sensei, the 20th generation, and Shimabukuro Sende, the 22nd generation. Miura Sensei was pre World War II. He was born in 1922. And so he was a very stoic Japanese man and trained with men who were samurai. Shimu Kurosanasi was post World War II. And so he was a modern man. I was a modern Japanese man. And so I got to see both sides of that and how they believed in propagation of the martial arts. But also the way they explained their passion for what good this can do in the world. I'll give you a prime example. we swing a sharp sword. And I spend a lot of time, my students spend a lot of time swinging swords now. There's not a lot of practicality of that on the street anymore. There are no more samurai. And so these things over a period of time over the generations have developed a different purpose, a different meaning for each generation. For example, You know, what's the closest thing we have to drawing a sword? We do what's called Nukitsuke, particularly Iaido is, the iconic technique is to draw the sword and cut it in a first action. And the closest thing, there's no saying I'm sorry after that. There's no oops, right? There's no oops moment. When the sword leaves the Saiya, when the sword leaves the scabbard, someone's going to be permanently damaged. And so we call that the life of EI because life hangs in the balance of the very first cut. And today in our modern society the closest thing we can we can relate to that is the words that come out of your mouth. Once they're out of your mouth, Jeremy, there's no taking it back. It leaves a scar. It leaves a, there's no saying I'm sorry. It's out there. It's in the world, it's in the universe. It's out there permanently. And someone's life is going to be permanently affected by that. And so the four elements, the four elements of what we do is that first cut to be, to know when to release that from the Sia, from your mouth. and when not to. And the next cut we do is a finishing cut. And in the olden days, that finishing cut was so that you would not leave an injured man on the battlefield to die an ugly death. So the finishing cut we call Kiri-Roshi, that's what we call a compassionate cut today. It's a cut to end suffering in the world. We train, if we've done Nukitsuke for the right reason. to preserve a life rather than take a life. and we do the finishing cut to end suffering. We train to end suffering, not to cause suffering. The third technique in every one of our kata is sometimes they call chiburi. Well, chiburi is to clean the blade with all of the remnants of the battle that are left on it. And for us... The sword has always represented the soul and the intention of the samurai who wielded it. And so if you've done Nukitsuke, the draw for the right reason, if you've done the compassionate cut for the right reason... Cleaning the blade represents the fact that your soul is still clean too. And then returning the sword to the Saiya, we call Noto. Noto is that that's where all things should be complete. The sword should not leave the Saiya. The weapon should not be drawn, if at all possible, because once it is, the universe, as we know it, changes. My life changes. My enemy's life changes. His family's life changes. All of the future changes, because we're all affected. We're all interrelated. So swordsmanship today. Swordsmanship today is about making us better people so that we can have a better future as a community. So I don't know that I'm, again, getting back to your, I don't know if I'm introspective. Those are, that was my teacher's message. That's not my message. That's his message and their message. And so I'd like to think that I'm a thinker and introspective, but basically my job is just to be the translator.

Jeremy:

Mm.

Carl Long:

My job is to take their message and put it in English so more people can understand what we're supposed to be doing.

Jeremy:

It's powerful. The last couple minutes, I imagine a number of people are going to be hitting rewind and listening to that again. And if it seems like I'm a bit disconnected, it's because you just hit me with a concept that is so powerful that I wanna make sure we chat about it. This idea that the equivalent of a first cut is the words that you speak. And I'll confess that my initial reaction was to dismiss that. Not because I didn't agree with it, but because I didn't like the responsibility that it left me with. But as you spoke more and as I thought more, I completely agree. A few misplaced words can ruin someone's life. And I think most of us have been on the receiving end of someone saying something that probably wasn't even meant to be as hurtful as it was received. And carrying that with us over time.

Carl Long:

the uh... and not just sword work but even the karate that uh... that i studied i studied shonru and i studied shitoru with uh... with my teacher and his teacher too, Maguening Sensei and part of the what we call the dojo kum even in the uh... modern arts you know one of the one of the uh... was to seek to attain perfection of character, to live with politeness and discipline, to honor a code of ethical behavior, to refrain from impetuous conduct. and that goes across all of the Japanese martial arts that I've been exposed to. It's not just... I guess the fact that it's so obvious in sword work that in petuous conduct someone dies. You know, in the day of the samurai there were three possible outcomes to any battle once the sword was drawn. One, I defeat my enemy and he dies. Two, my NFE defeats me and I die. Three, we kill each other. But two out of three times, we die. And so, those aren't really good odds, are they?

Jeremy:

No,

Carl Long:

Survival.

Jeremy:

no, those are terrible hots.

Carl Long:

But their job at that time was to do their job and that was to defeat the enemy. So two out of three times, they were able to do that as well. Today, it's not quite like that. And, you know, in real battle, for real soldiers, on the battlefield, that's the way it is. And we have a tendency to lose sight of that. I think if you look at the world today, if there's anybody who despises war, it's the people who've already been there. And most of us that practice martial arts, this is a God's honest truth today, have never seen war. And so one of the things my teacher used to tell me is you say, Carl's on. He said, as you get higher level with the sword, when you do the kata, when you do the waza, when you do the form, when you do the technique, you need to see the outcome. Because it's the outcome that will keep the sword in the saiya. It's the out time that will keep the words in your mouth. It's the outcome of your actions that you'll see. And we call that BUSHI NO MEI, that's the eye of the samurai. Seeing the outcome. before it happens. And that's what allows you to create a better society, a better martial art, practice for the right reason, swing the sword for the right reason, throw a punch for the right reason, right? Do a choke for the right reason. All of those. Do things for the right reason. And he would say, you know, it's not a matter of having rules. It's about doing the right thing.

Jeremy:

What I love about your words is, there's often, but I think sadly less often than when I started trading as a child, there's a... spiritual, not religious, but there's a spiritual component to what you're talking about and how you're talking about it, and I imagine how you practice it. And it's one of the things that I enjoy most and think is most beneficial about martial arts in our training.

Carl Long:

I think the spiritual part of it is important. I think the physical part of it is just as important. And that's probably my... The thing I would like to see change more, I would like to see the two come together more for a lot of places, a lot of people, a lot of instructors, a lot of arts have become either very physical and no spiritual or vice versa. Very spiritual and they've lost the martial value of the art itself. And modern martial arts are great. I think the whole... you know, combat of martial arts, the UFC type thing, the Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, all those are wonderful arts. And so they're relevant for this time. They're relevant

Jeremy:

I agree.

Carl Long:

for this time. And at the same time, I see a lot of the old arts that have lost their combativeness. It doesn't have to be that way.

Jeremy:

I agree.

Carl Long:

It can be both. And it doesn't have to be, we don't have to infantilize. Infantilization of the martial arts is one of the things that drives me crazy. It's, you know, I see less and less young adults, older adults coming into the dojo because they think it's something for children. Because they've maybe been exposed to it or their children have been exposed to it as little ones. And it's become, you know, something for children and not for adults anymore. And I think it's got more to offer adults at this point than it does the children, especially in the society that we live in today.

Jeremy:

Yeah, one of the things we've talked about on this show, and I'm gonna connect it succinctly, we have a lot of martial arts schools that complain that... they're the majority of their student enrollment are young children and they quit when they become older children or when they reach the rank of black belt. And yet if you look at them, a large portion of martial arts industry marketing, it's your young child should earn a black belt.

Carl Long:

You know, Jeremy, I was in business a long time and I can tell you, you market to the people you want to draw in. You have a demographic. And If you say things like, this will build your self-esteem, you're gonna get people who need self-esteem. This will help you become able to defend yourself. You're gonna get people who don't know how to defend themselves. This will turn your sheep into a lion.

Jeremy:

Mm.

Carl Long:

you're

Jeremy:

Well,

Carl Long:

going

Jeremy:

you're

Carl Long:

to

Jeremy:

gonna

Carl Long:

get

Jeremy:

have

Carl Long:

sheep,

Jeremy:

a sheep.

Carl Long:

right?

Jeremy:

Right.

Carl Long:

And so that's changed over the years. That's changed over the message, because there are more of them than there are of lions. And so if you want to fill a dojo or a business, you can market to the largest spectrum of the market. And if you want to sell martial arts magazines, you market to the people of a certain demographic. if you want to sell books, if you want to sell weapons, if you want to sell groceries, you market to a certain demographic, right? And so the martial arts community has done that. And they failed, they failed the adult market. They failed to give the passion that they have for their art to people just like them. And My teacher, Miura Sensei, was 92 when he passed away. And if you go to Japan, you see elderly, what we can in this country call elderly, still doing martial arts and doing it. I had a teacher, he was a wonderful man. I trained with him a few times, Okinawan man who came here to the United States to teach. I was about 40 years old at the time. And he said, he came up to me, it was at a seminar, and he said, oh, long time. Your karate is very strong. I said, oh, thank you, Sensei. He goes, but not like when you were 19. And I'm like, oh, Sensei, I'll practice harder. I promise. He goes, oh, I know, but not like when you were 19. I said, Sensei, I promise, I practice much harder. I'll work every day. He said, no, you don't understand. He said, Every time you try to practice like you're 19, you're one day away from your goal because you're never going to be 19 again. So Long Sun, someday, how old are you? I said 40, Sensei. He said, someday you're gonna be 80. I said, I hope so. He goes, start practicing now what you can do when you're 80 and you'll have 40 years experience when you get there. He says, stop looking back, start knowing that martial arts is for your whole life, not just your past life. And start practicing for where you're going, not for where you came from. And that was eye-opening for me. And it's been particularly gratifying and helpful as I've gotten older. I've had injuries, I've had, you know, all the things that come with training over the years and the things that catch up to you. You know, when you... When you dance all your life, sooner or later you have to pay the piper, right? And so we do that in our old age, but it shouldn't stop us. I've had great examples of teachers and mentors and icons of martial arts who have done this to the day they die. And it's because they don't try to be 19 anymore. They don't try to do children's martial arts. They don't try to do young men's or young women's martial arts. They do martial arts for the moment that they're in. As getting back to making things relevant for the generation, we have to make it relevant for where we're at our generation too. And hopefully to be a... an icon and you want to be someone that the young people can look to and say, I can do that when I'm an old man. I can do that in my middle age. I can still be effective. I can still. I can still gain from this. All the time that I've spent in my life is not wasted. I don't have to retire when I'm in my 40s doing a physical activity. I can do this till the day I die. And my teachers have all done that. And I'd like to live every day until the day I die. I'd like to do martial arts every day until that time. And

Jeremy:

I

Carl Long:

I

Jeremy:

think

Carl Long:

think

Jeremy:

we all,

Carl Long:

everyone can do that.

Jeremy:

yeah, I agree. One of the arguments that you see put forward quite often is, well, this person should not have this rank because they are not capable of this thing. Specifically talking about physical. You know, oh, well, you know. that person couldn't win in a fight. Oh, okay, so anyone in a wheelchair can earn rank. Well, so as someone ages, they should be demoted. Well, and I'll go back to using my own words, but a point you made, it is, yes, it is the physical piece, but it is also the other, the artistic piece. However, someone might term that, but recognizing that is so important and... I like what you're saying, I'm 44. When I look out, 70, 80, hopefully far beyond that, I wanna continue to train and I wanna continue to use martial arts as my kind of support system and support structure to help me get there, because I believe it will.

Carl Long:

And you know, Jeremy, you know, what I didn't say earlier was that those men were incredible at their age. And they were incredible because they continued to get better. I mean, it wasn't just a matter, oh, I'm here, I'm at this rank, I'm at this level. They continued to strive and work and literally got better. They got I couldn't hold a candle to them. I sat at the feet of giants. And so... They were the people whose approval I wanted. And even at that age, because they'd seen it all, I had to... I was amazed when I go to Japan. Last time, this last time I was there in March, but prior to that I was there before the pandemic. And one of the gentlemen that was demonstrating on the Butokuden floor, the old Butokuden, he was 92 years old. And he was taking ukemi for every one of his students on a hardwood floor.

Jeremy:

And for people who don't train in karate and don't know what Ukemi is.

Carl Long:

he was taking break falls on a hardwood floor, a man of 92, for all of his junior students. And in that old jiu-jitsu style, the instructor was always the man to take the fall, not the junior.

Jeremy:

because he knew how to fold.

Carl Long:

Yeah, because he knew how to fall. And at the same time, you saw the respect that the junior I would see Miura Sensei, my teacher's teacher, and my teacher draw a sword at the age in his late 80s. It was beautiful and it was so effective. He was able to do cuts that no one else has ever been able to do or accomplish. Ever. And to this day, you know, no one's been able to replicate it. And so we can get better. We can continue. We don't have to get... We don't have to retire. This is a passion? We have a relationship with the art like we have a relationship with our teacher. We have relationship with our students. You know. We have a love for what we do. we need to... here's the catch 22. As we get better, as we learn more, our own giri, our duty and obligation to replace ourselves gets harder. because you've got to keep bringing somebody up to that level. And it can never be repaid. But we try. And we try to keep this art alive because it's given me and my life, I'm sure your martial arts has given you in your life, just you wouldn't be doing what you're doing now, right? The people you've met, the world that you live in, the travel that you've probably done, and the longer we do it, the further we go. And I'm not just talking in our own ability, I'm talking about travel, right? We start to travel because we find that there's more to see, there's more to learn. And that gives us a, we're living a greater, a longer life, we're living a more exciting life. Hopefully it makes us the time that we spend doing that with each other Because I mean think about it the time that we're spending here today together, right you and I that this hour and a half Jeremy, that's an hour you and I will never get back again in our lives. Right? I mean, no matter it's priceless, the time we spend on a dojo floor, on a mat with each other is a priceless investment. You know, your, your hour is no less valuable than Jeff Bezos. Because at the end of the, when it's all over, if you knew today was gonna be your last day, you couldn't buy that hour back. What would you decide to do with that hour if you knew that today was your last day? Maybe you would spend it with your family. Maybe you would spend it in service to someone else and others serving someone who was less fortunate. Maybe you would write a book, I don't know. But if you're living your highest life conditioned through martial arts, you'd be doing the same thing we're doing right now. because you love it. And you know that it doesn't cost you, it's an investment that repays you and your family because you could become a better human being for it. And at least that's what I tell my wife. That's how I justify what we do. You know, the time that we spend with each other makes us better. And we reap the rewards through the efforts and the time of others being invested in us too.

Jeremy:

so well and so powerfully said, the last thing I'm going to do is try to summarize or add on to anything there. People want to get a hold of you, websites or social media or email, anything you can share in that world.

Carl Long:

Well, we do have the organization that we have is called the Kokosai Mipon Burukai. The web address is pretty easy for that. It's www.knbk.org and you can reach out and look at that. Our organization has dojo throughout the world. They're also linked on there as well, you can find them. Obviously there's, you know, social media like Facebook and Instagram, that type of thing. But I would say that the books wise, one of my teacher published probably one of the most well read books on swordsmanship in the English language, it's called Flashing Steel, Volume One and Two. He and I wrote a book called Samurai Swordsmanship. It's also available on Amazon and through Blackout Media. There are a lot of ways, but I would say the key to reaching out, just find a place that's close to you. Find a place where people are teaching a good martial art, people who have a good heart, and someone you respect, and you'll learn from them, whoever that happens to be.

Jeremy:

This is normally where I ask people to kind of wrap us up, but you just did that so beautifully. So instead of doing that, I'll simply say thank you and I really do appreciate you coming

Carl Long:

Jeremy,

Jeremy:

on and sharing your time.

Carl Long:

thank you so very, very much, and I want to thank your audience too for sticking with us this whole time. I know it's been a long ride and a little bit tough, so I appreciate your time. Everyone, thank you.