Episode 846 - Sensei Kyle Doan
Today's epsiode is a chat with Sensei Kyle Doan, a martial artist and Tik Tok creator from Ontario, Canada.“Being bad at something is just the start of being good at something.”
Sensei Kyle Doan - Episode 846
Welcome to another captivating episode of Whistlekick Martial Arts Radio! Today we're diving into the world of martial arts through the inspiring journey of Sensei Kyle Doan.
In this episode, we're stepping back in time to Sensei Kyle's childhood, where his profound connection with martial arts began to take root. Imagine a six-year-old discovering Matsukaze Budokai, at Pinewind Martial Arts – a blend of timeless tradition and pragmatic combat principles. This style isn't just about physical prowess; it's a way of life that intertwines body, mind, and soul.
Growing up immersed in the ethos of Budo and the warrior's path, Sensei Kyle has molded himself into a very talented martial artist. But the journey wasn't solitary – was there a familial hand guiding his first steps into the dojo? Tune in as we uncover the role his parents played, or didn't play, in his formative years of training.
One of the most compelling aspects of this episode is Sensei Kyle's advocacy for preserving traditional martial arts. In a world of evolving combat techniques, his resolute belief in upholding these time-honored practices adds a layer of depth to our understanding of his martial arts' ever-evolving landscape.
Whether you're a dedicated martial artist or simply curious about the profound philosophies that underscore the art, this podcast is your gateway. Sensei Kyle's passion, his dedication, and his wisdom offer a unique perspective on martial arts as a discipline, a way of life, and a wellspring of insights applicable to all facets of existence. Get ready to be inspired, enlightened, and moved by the power of martial arts – only on Whistlekick Martial Arts Radio!
Show Notes
You can find out more about Sensei Kyle Doan at:
Tik Tok: kdoan3
Facebook: theonlykdoan
✅Subscribe to whistlekick Martial Arts Radio on the following platforms:
🎧Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/3mVnZmf
🎧Spotify: https://spoti.fi/3yHVdHQ
🎧Google: https://bit.ly/3kLSpo8
✅You can find whistlekick on all social media platforms using the handle @whistlekick or visit our website at https://www.whistlekick.com or https://www.whistlekickmartialartsradio.com
Show Transcript
Jeremy:
Hey, what's happening everybody? Welcome, this is Whistlekick martial arts radio, episode 846 with my guest today, Sensei Kyle Doane. Kyle's here, we're gonna talk in just a moment. There he is waving for those of you watching. But if you're new to the show or maybe you haven't been around for a while or you just benefit from repetition, we are Whistlekick. Our whole mission is to connect, educate and entertain the traditional martial artists of the world. And you can see everything that we do at whistlekick.com. You can grab some in the store with the code podcast one five, see 15% on a shirt or training program or anything like that. Check out all the cool stuff that we've got rolling. If you want to go deeper on the show, whistle, kick, martial arts, radio.com is the place to go. All the stuff that Kyle and I talk about today, you're going to find show notes over there for that links his social media. I'm looking at a stack of photos he sent over some actually really cool shots. And we'll yeah, you know, anything else that we come up with. in there during our conversation. We'll make sure we link it from there. But I appreciate everyone's continued support and special shout out to those who support our Patreon. Patreon.com slash whistlekick. That's where the true family lie. And if you're family, maybe you want to go check out all the things that you can get in on starting at two bucks a month with our Patreon. But for now, Kyle, thanks for being here, man. I appreciate your time.
Kyle Doan:
Thanks for having me. This is. This is my first podcast experience and
Jeremy:
Ah
Kyle Doan:
I'm super pumped.
Jeremy:
nice. You know, I don't think you were quite in that first crop of people that I connected with when I joined TikTok a few years ago, but you weren't
Kyle Doan:
No.
Jeremy:
far after. Like you and I have been trading comments for a long time.
Kyle Doan:
Yeah.
Jeremy:
Years. And
Kyle Doan:
I started TikTok
Jeremy:
yeah.
Kyle Doan:
in December or January, December 2022 or January 2023. So.
Jeremy:
Okay, all right, so not that,
Kyle Doan:
Not too long.
Jeremy:
actually not that long though. I guess you
Kyle Doan:
No.
Jeremy:
and I have talked enough that it feels like it's been longer,
Kyle Doan:
Yeah, yeah,
Jeremy:
which is that's kind of
Kyle Doan:
for sure.
Jeremy:
how you want it to be, right? And you seem to be really passionate, similar to myself, about thinking about and talking about martial arts.
Kyle Doan:
Oh, for sure.
Jeremy:
Where did that come from? Is that the way you were raised in your training?
Kyle Doan:
Yeah, so I started at a very young age. I was introduced to the martial arts at the age of six. And the organization I've grown up with the Matsukaze Budokai or Pinewind Martial Arts. They're a heavily traditional and practical based style. And they've always taken not only the physical aspect of martial arts, but the spiritual aspect as well. I grew up on Budo and the way of the warrior and that's defined me as a martial artist, which has really led me down that path of applying it to everything I do in my life.
Jeremy:
So he started at six. I'm guessing there was some parental influence there. Did
Kyle Doan:
It was...
Jeremy:
either of your parents train or they just said, you know, ah, this kid's driving us nuts. Let's get rid of him for an hour.
Kyle Doan:
So I dabbled in a few different sports and never really connected with anything. I did baseball, I did soccer. I grew up in a hockey family and never got into hockey. I was never interested in it.
Jeremy:
Where do you live?
Kyle Doan:
I live in Sarnia, Ontario, Canada.
Jeremy:
Okay, I see. I didn't know you were Canadian. But the moment
Kyle Doan:
Hahaha!
Jeremy:
you said hockey, I went, wait a second. There
Kyle Doan:
Do I
Jeremy:
are
Kyle Doan:
not
Jeremy:
only
Kyle Doan:
have
Jeremy:
a
Kyle Doan:
a Canadian
Jeremy:
few
Kyle Doan:
accent?
Jeremy:
hot, there are only a few like hotbeds of hockey that I'm aware of in the US. I'm kind of in one of them in Vermont, because we might as
Kyle Doan:
Yeah.
Jeremy:
well be part of Canada. And so okay. All right. So now that I know you're Canadian completely changes everything. Please
Kyle Doan:
So early life being put through different sports, just because, you know, I'm a kid and my parents want me to be active. And we had a family. We were all part of the local YMCA. And all of a sudden there was a karate program available and my parents were like, you want to do karate? And... 6 year old me was probably like, news turtles are cool, Power Rangers are sweet, you know, let's do it. And I did it and apparently I excelled at it and I have never stopped, so.
Jeremy:
and when you say excelled, right? And obviously, you know, just not that we tend to get this sort of audience, but if anybody out there is like, oh, you're six, shut up, right? Like just, that's not what he means. But what do you mean?
Kyle Doan:
So. This was controversial at the time as a kid, and this is
Jeremy:
May
Kyle Doan:
coming
Jeremy:
I ask how
Kyle Doan:
from
Jeremy:
old you are?
Kyle Doan:
I'm 32. So at the time, I remember my parents, well, more recently, I remember my dad specifically telling me about how other students and other parents of students kind of didn't like me because I tended to get more attention than others. But based on what my dad had told me, it was because I just understood things more and put in more effort. And I guess, like I said, I just latched onto it. And it was a huge passion for me from a young age. And by the age of 10, I was offered a chance to compete at the Okinawan World Championships that were held in Atlanta, Georgia. And funny thing, I just recently digitized the eight millimeter recording of it. And
Jeremy:
Oh
Kyle Doan:
I've,
Jeremy:
cool.
Kyle Doan:
you've, I don't know if you've seen it, but I've uploaded
Jeremy:
I haven't.
Kyle Doan:
my performance. I did Pina and Shodan. And
Jeremy:
We
Kyle Doan:
looking
Jeremy:
have to,
Kyle Doan:
back,
Jeremy:
we've got to get that linked in the show. People are going to want to see that.
Kyle Doan:
Yeah, I'll send it to you. Looking back, I recognize what I competed against because at the time I didn't know.
Jeremy:
Hmm.
Kyle Doan:
We had the intention of doing what I knew at my rank. I was a blue belt at the time. I was a fourth Q to be more specific because not every organization uses the same belt system. And... Every kid in my age group was doing Seisan. which I look back and I'm like, that's funny. Cause I know it now, but I didn't know it then. And my sensei regrets not teaching me a black belt kata for the tournament. But one of the cooler things from the recording is, and it was about an hour of video, most of it just kind of random filler, but I saw... many big names in the martial arts community, like masters, Okinawan masters on the panel, that I didn't recognize at the time, that I recognize now.
Jeremy:
That's cool.
Kyle Doan:
Morio Hegiona being one of them. So that was a wild, you know, walk back into the past and seeing not only how I performed as a child, but I got to see that tournament again that I haven't seen since... I did it in 2001.
Jeremy:
Had you competed prior to that?
Kyle Doan:
Yep, so we did
Jeremy:
Okay.
Kyle Doan:
a lot of competitions locally with another group that was a little bit bigger as an organization. And I always did fairly well. But once I shifted into the adult classes, I was at a younger age, but that's because I was excelling. Tournament practice kind of fell by the wayside Um, well, shifting away from tournament style karate, uh, which is more appealing to the children at the time, uh, to more practical, um, realistic and may I say dangerous karate. Yeah.
Jeremy:
Now you use the word at one point in describing your start, use the word practical. And that's a word that is getting a lot of use with respect to martial arts, specifically karate. There is a practical karate movement. We've had a number of folks on who are headed down that path, the one that jumps to mind the most, because it was a big part of our conversation was Sumio Berado. and he's doing some work in that space and certainly not the only one. But I assume that in using that word, you're not using it cavalier. You have meaning, you have intent
Kyle Doan:
Yeah.
Jeremy:
when you say that. So let's get a definition going first and see where that takes us.
Kyle Doan:
So when I think practical karate, the first thing that comes to mind, and there was this conversation through a big TikTok conversation, and it was the whole jutsu versus dou, karate jutsu versus karate dou. And we had always defined our karate as karate jutsu, which translated roughly means practical karate. applicable karate versus more spiritual karate. And in my experience growing up in martial arts, we always, at least once a week, we had sparring classes, applying what we learned in kata and in our other practices, body conditioning, to put it bluntly, just beating each other up on a weekly basis and loving it because
Jeremy:
Good times.
Kyle Doan:
That's what we developed as Karate. So that's how I think of practical, applicable.
Jeremy:
Okay. And. Has your perspective on what fits that definition changed?
Kyle Doan:
Not really. I will say, and I don't know if this goes off topic from this, but I will say that.
Jeremy:
There is no topic. The show is a collection of ramblings.
Kyle Doan:
So I was. I was a bit of a snob before in being very judgmental on other ways of practice and being introduced to a wider variety of organizations and other people studying not just karate but other forms of martial arts. I was able to open up my perspective and learn how to respect a wide variety of studies. I spent a lot of time in California training with a group, a shitoru karate group by the name of the Aionagi Kenshukai or Aionagi Karate, and they were a very spiritual-based karate system, karate do, all about bettering themselves within the art of karate. And we would go down every year to Lake Arrowhead up in the mountains. for a spiritual karate camp essentially, where there was meditation, there was Tai Chi, Chi Gong karate obviously, and it helped me just be more accepting of other ways of doing it, other thought processes. And it's funny because we were always viewed as, since HFDA was the head of the Matsukaze Budokai, and we were always considered Sensei Dei's thugs because we were very rough. And we would go there and it was interesting to compare because sure, our karate was very practical, but these people were on a different level when it came to their spirituality, their being in touch with that side of the martial arts. And that's why I went, that's why it opened my eyes, right? Like. They're happy. Sure, we can fight, but they're really happy people. You know what I mean?
Jeremy:
Yeah, it's really interesting to me how so many people think it has to be one or the other. Because when we look at the way most of us look at our martial arts, if you ask people, why do you train? It is rare in my experience. It's rare that the number one reason is to protect myself.
Kyle Doan:
Mm-hmm.
Jeremy:
That might be the reason some people get into it. And I think for some of those people, that's the justification they give, even though that's not the real reason. You know, they're looking for community and exercise and trying something new, right? Like, if we were to make a list of all the benefits of martial arts, it's a pretty long list. And
Kyle Doan:
Yeah.
Jeremy:
self-defense usually drifts, and over time it seems to drift more and more as to why. Right? And... Some people look at that from the outside and they find massive fault in that. And that's just, I think that's how it should be. Right, that the whole,
Kyle Doan:
Now,
Jeremy:
go ahead.
Kyle Doan:
I do believe that self-defense is a foundational part of what karate is. Historically, yes. But It's the modern day. And I had this conversation fairly recently discussing literally this topic. And
Jeremy:
Mm.
Kyle Doan:
I talked about how It's not this isn't feudal Japan where you're worried about you know your an enemy family attacking your compound or war. And this isn't the 70s and 80s where you're worried about a rival dojo challenging you and fighting you for your students. Now, I can't deny the fact that there are pockets of violence in this world, which is why I find karate very important and the self-defense aspect of karate to be very important because violence still exists. But... as a whole across the entire world. And you know what, maybe I'm wrong. I'm sure there's gonna be people who watch this who disagree with me. But I think violence as a whole is a lot less than it's ever been in history.
Jeremy:
The statistics
Kyle Doan:
That doesn't
Jeremy:
would
Kyle Doan:
mean
Jeremy:
justify
Kyle Doan:
it's less,
Jeremy:
that.
Kyle Doan:
yeah. That doesn't mean it's less in certain areas. I know, well, there's war happening in Ukraine. There's violence coming up from... political differences and just weird ignorant perspectives that stem from that kind of stuff. But I think as a whole, you know, we're a little bit better off, which allows us to open up that variety in the martial arts to see a spiritual side. And even if not, not everyone's looking for that and there's nothing wrong with that.
Jeremy:
I've often said and long said that there are as many different ways of training and viewing martial arts as there are people in it. And I think that is an asset. I think that is awesome. If there was only one way to train, then how sad would that be? Because so many people would try that and it wouldn't work for them. You know, if you and I sat and compared notes in extreme detail, we would find differences between, you know, I like to do this, I don't like to do that, I'm good at this, I'm not good at that, I don't want to spend my time on this, et cetera. And if one of us had to be forced into that, makes us less likely to remain engaged with martial arts over time.
Kyle Doan:
For sure.
Jeremy:
I think I cut you off. I apologize
Kyle Doan:
No,
Jeremy:
if I did.
Kyle Doan:
I had a thought and then I lost it. So
Jeremy:
That's
Kyle Doan:
clearly
Jeremy:
okay.
Kyle Doan:
it wasn't there.
Jeremy:
You know, and when people pop up and they say, you know, well, the violence exists, well there are a few things. First off, I'm not aware of anybody's martial arts training that's really going to work well in a war, a modern day war. You know, if we're talking about drone attacks and body armor and firearms, I'm going to spend my time training other things. You know, that's first off. If you're in a place that is not at war and has significantly increased levels of violence, leave. If there are things that are that much more important to you than your own personal safety or the safety of those around you, I'm not going to tell anyone how to live, but that's a very strange way of arranging priorities in my mind.
Kyle Doan:
Well, and it's funny you say that because... A skilled martial artist, someone who is, has been heavily influenced from a quality base of martial arts, they're not going to seek that. I know lots of people, I've interacted with lots of people, especially with my time on TikTok, growing through that social media, I've met a lot of interesting people. A lot of people will take that, and they love that and they seek that because they want that challenge. But what does that ultimately mean? And it may not be everybody, but the way I see it is a martial artist that's seeking fights, they're lacking something in them, they're lacking confidence and they need to prove themselves. And the same goes for, you know, going back to the TikTok thing. classic troll comments. They're lacking that, right? They have to fill that void. What are we taught? What's the biggest thing we're taught in martial arts? It's the most widespread understood thing about karate is we don't hit first. So take that and blow that up. Don't seek violence. Like I know and I'm confident in who I am and what I do. Why would I wanna put someone through my knowledge of martial arts? Why would I wanna hurt somebody if I didn't have?
Jeremy:
Right, we did an episode, and I forget exactly what it was called, but the premise was there's no winning a fight. If you've gotten to that point, something has gotten lost. Doesn't mean it's not necessary at times, but if you are, if you constantly find yourself in violence, at some point you gotta look at the common denominator, which is you, right? You know,
Kyle Doan:
Well.
Jeremy:
if you're the person who is always being wronged or treated poorly or ending up in bad relationships or, you know, if some... I came up with this analogy the other day. If somebody came to you and said, you know, I just got in my ninth car accident, the first thing you're going to think, even if you've been in the car with them, you're not very good driver. Every single person is going to think that. There's a point where you say, you're kind of defying the statistics here. So if somebody comes to me and they say, and I had a great friend who got into fights all the time when I wasn't around, he didn't train. I was like, dude. What are you doing? It was him. It was obviously him. Trouble followed him. He liked to pretend it had nothing to do with him, but I spent enough time with him in public to know, yeah, it was him.
Kyle Doan:
Yeah. Sometimes you got to be honest with yourself and you got to recognize that if you're following certain habits that are leading you down certain paths, and I don't want to go down the rabbit hole
Jeremy:
I don't
Kyle Doan:
of
Jeremy:
know.
Kyle Doan:
like victim blaming because that's a different thing entirely,
Jeremy:
Yep.
Kyle Doan:
but it's self-reflection. And I think that's a big factor and valuable thing to... quality martial arts is it allows you to do that, have self-reflection. And everyone has, you know, everyone's run into their own problems. We're all human. We all make mistakes. But if you don't self-reflect and you don't recognize that, you know, this is habitual, this is, you know, possibly an addiction, maybe they're addicted to. Fighting, as silly as it sounds or whatever rush it gives them. But it's that self-reflection and it's about learning how to grow from that and put yourself in a better place.
Jeremy:
Yeah, you know, there are there are a whole bunch of people that are training right now and a lot of them are not training in what we would consider traditional martial arts. A lot of these folks who are at, you know, these blended gyms, MMA gyms, and the value that is placed on people within a world, not certainly not all. I don't want people to think I mean all I don't even know if it's most but it's enough that we're talking about a good chunk of the population that trains. It's all about fighting skill.
Kyle Doan:
Mm-hmm.
Jeremy:
And they've built a hierarchy that's all about fighting skill. What happens when you get older? If you have tied your self-worth to your skill in fighting and you become old, because hopefully you want to become old because the alternative is dying, then you look up one day and go, wow, I'm not the toughest around. and your entire worldview and personal view was built on that, that's going to be a miserable day.
Kyle Doan:
Well, you'll lose your identity, right? Like,
Jeremy:
Yeah.
Kyle Doan:
and like, yeah, that's pretty much it. You won't know who you are, that you're gonna lose that whole part of you. And not only that, but look at like, and I've talked about this before with like grandmasters and the high ranking Okinawan, 70 plus year old black belt. They're not defined by purely their talent as a martial artist anymore. They're defined by what they gave back and their student base, their knowledge and understanding, the history that they've been a part of, besides like a few of them that are still terrifying. But yeah, like when you have an organization that you're a part of, that's purely about... fighting, well, one, are you going to live that long? If that's all you do, how many concussions are you going to go through? Right? Like, violence is not the end-all be-all. And I understand that it's a part of a lot of masculine culture. And but it's just a risk. Like.
Jeremy:
Yeah, for sure. You know, when you think about those schools that rank is based on fighting skill, my first comment to anyone who exists in one of those environments, so as skill fades, do you demote them? Well, no. Okay, so it's not the most important thing. Well, you gotta pick one or the other.
Kyle Doan:
Yeah, that's
Jeremy:
It's
Kyle Doan:
rough.
Jeremy:
either the most important thing or it's not. and most of the time it's not. And the people coming up through the ranks think that that's what is being valued by the upper ranks, by the instructors, the grandmasters. But really what it seems to be is that fighting skill tends to correlate with the other things that are of significant value within that organization. That's been my observation.
Kyle Doan:
Yeah. The other problem when it comes to these pop-up gyms, MMA gyms, UFC-based stuff, and it's not all of them because I don't want to, you know, broad stroke over, brush stroke over all of them. And I've talked about this a hundred times, but if a martial arts organization does not put any emphasis on self-discipline, It's just a recipe for disaster. And I've had students who have grown out of it, but who have dabbled in these environments and it's messed them up in a way where they've come back and they were overly cocky and ignorant and just mean, violent people. And I'm... not everybody's going to be susceptible to that environment because we're all different. But young impressionable men are drawn to this type of environment when they see the camaraderie that comes behind it. But if they're not taught proper discipline, then you're just raising a generation of violent people.
Jeremy:
Yeah, there's an analog here that we can pull in with firearms. Any of the statistics on childhood firearm issues come with households where the kids were not taught what a firearm was, how to use it. They grow up, they're curious, and they finally get their hands on a gun one day, but they don't know what they're doing. They don't have the respect for it. They don't have the discipline of the training, and problems can occur. But the exact opposite, you know, I live in the woods. Youth hunting is a massive thing around here. We don't have gun violence. in large part because those kids that are hunting are taught how to hunt. Right?
Kyle Doan:
They're taught how to respect it.
Jeremy:
So we can pull that same thing into the typical traditional martial arts training environment versus the... I don't even know that I want to say typical because I don't roll so deep in these circles, but a at least not uncommon approach in an MMA style gym where You're given these techniques that are brutal or lethal, devastating, and training them in an environment where discipline may not be the first thing. versus the environment that I grew up in that you likely at least in part grew up in. All right, we're gonna do pinyon showed on another 5,000 times before you learn pinyon need on. Okay. And when you're in the middle of that, yeah, it's really easy to look at it and say, this sucks. I don't like it. Why do I want to be there? But look at what happens without it. If you have the skill without the temperament.
Kyle Doan:
for sure. That's absolutely true. And I remember doing those classes and I remember teaching those classes and that being a part of the development of classmates and students of mine. And it makes a difference.
Jeremy:
I grew up, I've got a couple years on you and a couple years of training, but not much. And the culture was likely pretty similar when you started versus when I started. I grew up at a time when instructors were... expected to be responsible for their students. There was no legal standing for it,
Kyle Doan:
Mm-hmm.
Jeremy:
but if an instructor heard that a student went to a tournament and was a jerk, that instructor was expected to take action.
Kyle Doan:
And I agree with that 100%.
Jeremy:
And I completely and I do as well and if that is the case if Instructors are responsible for their students. You don't pass out skills that they're not ready for You don't give them power That they will abuse And I see, I do not see that in the at least competitive MMA world all the time. And I definitely see instances where it's the opposite.
Kyle Doan:
Mm-hmm.
Jeremy:
Where a student is celebrated for going rogue and ignoring the instructions of the, usually in that case it's the coach, and carving their own way and being a maverick in all these other rebellious terms. What do you think?
Kyle Doan:
Yeah. Uh, like I said, I've seen it. I to go back to that one specific MMA gym that I remember my classmate slash student being involved with out of respect for that classmate, I came to a practice once and I made the mistake of even remotely mentioning I had experience. and I was the target. And I found that the coach there taught out of fear or using fear and just disrespect towards their students, this very toxic masculine environment. And It blew my mind, but what didn't surprise me was like three months later, his, the gym closed because I believe he got arrested for assault or something. Um, like no surprise there.
Jeremy:
Shocker.
Kyle Doan:
And I've had this conversation with this student, uh, slash classmate and, um, they've grown us so much since then, and I'm super proud of them. Uh, but they definitely regret that experience. Um, now I don't regret. the skills that they learned, because at least they had some foundation of that self-discipline. And it's led them to be a very talented practitioner to this day. They're actually focusing on Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu now. They just received their first stripe on their blue belt. And I keep bugging them that they need to teach me. But yeah, it's just such an interesting thing when you can... predict that, right? Like,
Jeremy:
Hmm.
Kyle Doan:
it didn't surprise me that gym fell through.
Jeremy:
Yeah, I want to go back to... You've used this term a couple times, and this is going to take us in a little bit of a detour from where we normally go on the show, but I want to talk about it because I think we can have a good conversation about it. I want the term toxic masculine. I think everyone can understand what toxic looks like, right? Talk, you know, anything overly unhealthy, whether we're talking about food or personalities, training styles could even be toxic, right? If you're... if you are so brutalized at the end of class that you cannot attend class the next instance, well that's probably a toxic training environment. But this is a term that's used a lot and it's a discussion that I see had outside of the martial arts. And given that martial arts From my rough estimates, at least in the West, which is where I understand martial arts from anecdote, it seems to be on average somewhere between 80 and 90% male.
Kyle Doan:
Mm-hmm.
Jeremy:
given that the population is pretty close to 50-50, we can assume that there's a reason for that. And we do have a good number of school owners that listen to this show. We do have a good number of women who listen to this show. And so I think... you are the right person for me to chat about this with because you are an insightful, thoughtful person.
Kyle Doan:
Thank
Jeremy:
And
Kyle Doan:
you.
Jeremy:
so when you say, when you use this term toxic masculine, toxic masculinity, what do you mean?
Kyle Doan:
So when I use the term toxic masculinity, I'm referring to clearly between men and man, between men, to say it a little nicer, between men, an environment that is not supportive, an environment that they're just mean to each other and Like I've worked in environments where I didn't fit the expectation. I'm a smaller dude. Stuff like that. Just without getting into dirty details. You know, I had a weird experience with my old organization. And I had... important people in my life essentially make fun of me. in a very... It was a post about men's mental health. It was a challenge, 25 pushups for 25 days in support of men's mental health and suicide awareness. And at the time I was struggling with my mental health. I was dealing with depression and I thought, hey, great time to start doing pushups, great time to start spreading awareness. It's all gonna help, right? And I got some backlash, I'll say. harmless backlash. It was just words. But my response was to stop posting because I didn't want the attention. And someone else who I'm involved with now got involved and asked why I stopped posting and they were disappointed in my answer. And they said, so they bullied you. And I was like, hold on. They're very good people. They're just They're old school, they have a certain type of background, and they were just razzin' me. And he goes, that's great that you think that, but it still bothers me. And he called them out, and they turned on me. And after that experience, that's a big definition of me, of my toxic masculinity for me. And what I take from that is what I learned from this group of people, I separate that part of it and I'm going to include love and caring and support in place of those things on top of the rough background that made me the skilled martial artist I am today. I feel like I kind of went off topic, but... That's
Jeremy:
No, I know
Kyle Doan:
my
Jeremy:
where you're
Kyle Doan:
definition.
Jeremy:
going.
Kyle Doan:
Yeah.
Jeremy:
I know where you're going. And I think... a little bit of foreshadowing, I'll spoil the punchline here. To me it is bullying. It is the adult version of bullying. Because, let's face it, we are human beings are social creatures. And part of being social involves social hierarchy. It is so deeply rooted into our genetics that we figure out where we land in the pecking order. right, that we have this stratification in everything. It's all over the place. You know, kids sports teams have captains, right? Martial arts has rank, military has rank. We like to score things. We like to know where we are because it helps us understand what's expected of us. And
Kyle Doan:
Yeah.
Jeremy:
while that may not be as relevant today in, you know, 2023, Our evolution didn't just shut off and revert to something else. We kind of have what we've had.
Kyle Doan:
Thank
Jeremy:
And
Kyle Doan:
you.
Jeremy:
knowing where we fit into the pecking order used to really matter. And how did men figure that out? Well, it was often through combatives and everything. But the difference
Kyle Doan:
For sure.
Jeremy:
is the place where I think that behavior becomes toxic. is when it is to the... to the disadvantage of the group. I think that's the easiest way to look at it. You pulled back, you were defensive of these folks who may not have been treating you with kindness. At that point, is that toxic? Hard to say, but it became really clear when they were called out and their response instead, I assume these are older people of higher rank.
Kyle Doan:
Yeah.
Jeremy:
Instead of them taking the opportunity to understand and to educate, which is what an instructor should be doing in those environments, taking those opportunities, they decided to double down and ostracize. Now it's toxic. Now it's bullying. That's to use one's authority from a place of fear to distance themselves from something that is threatening. that isn't actually threatening, that's toxic to me.
Kyle Doan:
And I will always value these people. I continue to respect them as martial artists and as people. I may not completely agree with certain aspects
Jeremy:
Respect
Kyle Doan:
of them.
Jeremy:
can be compartmentalized. It doesn't have to be all or nothing.
Kyle Doan:
And I will always appreciate what they gave to me as a martial artist. But it took me a long time, and it's still something that I'm working through. This is three years ago, but
Jeremy:
because
Kyle Doan:
it took
Jeremy:
these
Kyle Doan:
a
Jeremy:
were
Kyle Doan:
long
Jeremy:
people
Kyle Doan:
time
Jeremy:
that
Kyle Doan:
for me.
Jeremy:
you looked at highly
Kyle Doan:
Yeah,
Jeremy:
and
Kyle Doan:
it took a long time
Jeremy:
they
Kyle Doan:
for me to
Jeremy:
failed you.
Kyle Doan:
accept that experience. Yeah, I was a part of that organization for 20 years plus. And let's say, let's give him the benefit of the doubt and I was at fault in some manner. Did I not earn any sense of forgiveness? Like, I don't know, it was a weird experience. And what I'm appreciative of is that It's kind of allowed me to take off those rose-colored glasses. And again, I'm not bringing this up to bash them, because this organization is an incredible organization. World class and some of the best martial artists I've ever known and will ever know. But nobody's perfect. Like I said earlier, this has allowed me to reflect on that experience and really understand where I will lead in my future and my students. And I'll take all of the good and all of the challenging and those things that helped develop me and hardened me as a quality martial artist. And I will. challenge those toxic masculine traits. And not only that, but when you challenge that, you know, that side of that, it allows things to be more available and comfortable for women. Right? Like
Jeremy:
Yes.
Kyle Doan:
you say, like we said earlier, 90% of the martial arts is, you know, male dominated. Absolutely. But that doesn't mean there aren't women practicing. And the women who I've met over the course of the years that practice are incredible martial artists. And, you know, they deserve to have a healthy environment just as much as we do.
Jeremy:
And just I brought this up on the show a number of times, but just to kind of close the thought on male versus female percentages, when I see schools that are run by women, it is
Kyle Doan:
Mm-hmm.
Jeremy:
much closer to 50-50,
Kyle Doan:
Yep.
Jeremy:
which I absolutely love. And so that creates a very simple solution. If we want more women in martial arts, we need to recognize women. in martial arts. We need to make sure that they are supported. We need to make sure that they can progress far enough that they can open their own schools. I mean, it's that is not an easy thing to do, but it is a fairly simple path. And of course, we should be doing that for everyone, but you know, you've offered up a great example of where some of the institutionalized culture in what we do can be quite unhealthy. And I would go back to connect it to something we talked about before. Where were the instructors of those instructors. When did they fall down and say, you know what, this person's a bit of a jerk, but they've got their time in, or they did this or that, and I'm gonna promote them anyway. I've been on the inside, I've seen it so many times, where I've sat on a testing board, and I've said, are we really promoting this person, when just last week, you told me that they were a insert expletive hit. Why are we rewarding that behavior? Well, you know, they'll get better. They never get better. You either need to filter them out early on, or you need to have a come to Jesus moment and say, this needs to change. I will help you. I will guide you. But part of you progressing in rank is progressing as a human being.
Kyle Doan:
It's funny you say that because this has been a very prominent topic with a good friend of mine. I think you've had some interactions with them. It's Pastor Nathan Ogden or Sensei Nathan Ogden or Pastor Sensei Nathan Ogden. I don't know.
Jeremy:
We need a contraction right there.
Kyle Doan:
Yes.
Jeremy:
Pense.
Kyle Doan:
He'll be watching this so... We'll see how he responds.
Jeremy:
Pense or what would be the other way? S-Sin-Sin-Tor?
Kyle Doan:
Ha! S-s-saster. Anyways...
Jeremy:
Sent- I like Centaur. We're gonna- I'm gonna call him Centaur from now on. But please
Kyle Doan:
Okay.
Jeremy:
continue.
Kyle Doan:
So we had this conversation about rank expectation. And, you know, he kind of came out of nowhere. He was watching one of my live streams and he was like, we need to talk. And so we connected and we've been involved in developing a new organization, which
Jeremy:
Oh cool.
Kyle Doan:
doesn't need to be a topic, but we can get into it if we want to. And he He's been, this is gonna be a topic, but he offered to promote me. And part of why we've, because I've been hesitant to take promotion. I've had many people offered to promote me. And I've always been hesitant to take that because I wanna make sure that the person I'm being promoted by is a good person. Good martial
Jeremy:
Yes,
Kyle Doan:
arts follows good people.
Jeremy:
it does work both ways, folks. Taking rank from a jerk.
Kyle Doan:
Well, it
Jeremy:
Please
Kyle Doan:
ruins
Jeremy:
continue.
Kyle Doan:
the rank. It completely... Anyways, so he's always talked about how... I don't want to sound braggy, because this is going to be
Jeremy:
No,
Kyle Doan:
about
Jeremy:
no,
Kyle Doan:
me here.
Jeremy:
it's all good. This episode literally has your name on it. There's a braggy element to it. Just
Kyle Doan:
That's
Jeremy:
accept
Kyle Doan:
fair.
Jeremy:
it and move forward.
Kyle Doan:
That's fair. I'm very much, I focus highly on, you know, trying to be as humble as possible, almost to the point of, you know, it not being good for me. But anyways, so Sensei Nathan had discussed me deserving these specific ranks. not only because of my skills, because I know I'm a good martial artist, but because of my attitude and because of how I interact with people. And that's what's important. It's not just about that. And that connects back to everything else we've talked about, about the toxic masculinity, about all those topics. It's all connected. It's all a big web.
Jeremy:
And so through those conversations and talking about... what warrants someone deserving of progression in rank based on the development of their character? It sounds like you two have had some conversation on that subject. What did the two of you talk about with that?
Kyle Doan:
Well. Lots of stuff. Just. Being open to conversation, being open to criticism, being patient. This relates back to TikTok because that's been a major aspect of my growth in the martial arts recently. When I go live, I get a lot of trolls, a lot of trolls. And I have made it a mission of mine, very important part of my interaction online. is to do my best to interact with those trolls peacefully. Give them an opportunity to understand their ignorance and open them up to learning. And I've had countless people who have become followers and friends who came into my lives being rude and trolling me. And... that's the best thing about that is I could have just said something mean back. And sometimes it leads to that. Sometimes a troll is there to troll and that's it. And you give them back a little bit of their energy and you let them go. But I've seen in multiple instances, and I won't name certain names, but people get too emotionally involved and it becomes a backlash for them. Uh, and that's one thing I'm proud of with, uh, my online content is I've never been at risk of losing my account because of that thought process, because I want to give everybody an opportunity to learn. And this ties back into the expectation of these ranks. Just having an open understanding of that. Understanding people, how people learn, and how to communicate with every aspect of life, with every different perspective. Does that make sense?
Jeremy:
Yeah, it does. It
Kyle Doan:
I
Jeremy:
absolutely
Kyle Doan:
feel like
Jeremy:
does.
Kyle Doan:
I rambled a bit, but... Ha ha!
Jeremy:
No,
Kyle Doan:
Ha!
Jeremy:
please, please ram ramble away. Some of our best episodes have been nothing but ramble where I if you watch it, you just kind of see me just start to go. Okay,
Kyle Doan:
Whistlekick
Jeremy:
no, it doesn't
Kyle Doan:
Ramble
Jeremy:
happen.
Kyle Doan:
podcast.
Jeremy:
Ramblings, yeah, yeah. Maybe
Kyle Doan:
Yes.
Jeremy:
we do a series, an infrequent series that we call conversations, usually somebody who's been on the show before, but maybe we should call it ramblings. I hear you, I agree, and it was one of the things that I initially liked about your content on TikTok was that you had a very similar approach that I do in that. If somebody comes in and they're being a jerk, well, they're being a jerk for a reason. But that reason is not because they hate you because they don't know you. It's because they are ignorant and they're having a bad day or a bad month or a bad life. And they're trying to channel some of that externally to make themselves feel better. It's not good. It's not healthy, but it's probably better than some of the alternatives that they would take if they did not. have that. So if we can meet that with a bit of compassion and have conversation with them, you know, you and I and I don't even want us to get so close to this that people know what we're talking about. But you and I have had a conversation in private about certain subjects and people.
Kyle Doan:
Yeah.
Jeremy:
And I have had conversations come through that were like that, where it's, you know what, there's no saving this. But I've also had others come through where it's, hey, you know what? Trying to understand my perspective off a 60 second video and only watching the first 10 seconds is never going to work. There's a video I put up a couple days ago that... People very clearly are not watching the whole thing. It's only 60 seconds, but they can't even get the whole way through because they're saying, you're saying this. No, I'm not saying that. I'm not even close to saying that. There are, there's, there's words that you can watch and words you can listen to. And none of them say that. but they're just looking for a punching bag. Now, if a little kid came up to you on the
Kyle Doan:
Ahem.
Jeremy:
street and was super mad and yelling at you, you wouldn't kick them. You would recognize, whoa, this kid's having a hard time. How do I give them a hug? How do I make their life a little better? How do I make them feel heard and understood because they are acting out because they do not feel loved and supported? Doesn't matter if you're six or 46 or 66. It's the same thing.
Kyle Doan:
Now, one thing that I thought about while you were, you know,
Jeremy:
rambling.
Kyle Doan:
discussing that, the term ignorant. I think that we need to... We need to redefine ignorant, or at least in the eyes of a lot of people. There's nothing wrong with being ignorant. Being ignorant and sitting in it is wrong. But being ignorant is just a lack of understanding. And I've tried to make that very clear because I call people ignorant all the time because I deal with a lot of trolls. And I will tell them, look, I called you ignorant. This isn't offensive. This is just an opportunity for you to open your eyes. And you may not like what I'm doing, but that's a lack of understanding. And you know what? Understand it. And if you still don't like it, great. You're good. You understand it now. Because most of the hate stems from a lack of understanding. And I've been really pushing, trying to get people to understand that it's not an insult when I call you ignorant.
Jeremy:
Yeah, that word has definitely taken a turn and it is deemed an insult, but a lack of knowledge is not necessarily anyone's fault. It just, it is. And we all constantly operate from a place of what we understand at that time. Not everyone is willing to say, I'm gonna put everything that I believe up for discussion and possible revision. But that is something that I find among the people that I connect with best, especially in the martial arts. It's that true white belt mentality, that willingness to, you know what, if I've got to throw everything out and start over, I'll do it. Because why wouldn't I? If I'm
Kyle Doan:
Bing.
Jeremy:
tied to ego, then I need to hold on to that stuff or that rank or that whatever. But at the end of the day, that's not why I train. I train because I want to get better. And if there's a methodology that comes through, and I have had this happen once in my life, where I ended up with a group and within a half hour found such massive holes in what I did. that I went in the bathroom and cried.
Kyle Doan:
Yeah.
Jeremy:
This was less than 10 years ago. I didn't leave, I didn't quit. I said, okay, there's a lot of opportunity here to learn. And guess what happened over the next couple years? I got a heck of a lot better.
Kyle Doan:
Well, being bad at something is just the start of being good at something. being ignorant, having a lack of education is just an opportunity to educate yourself. And without getting into that, I think that's getting demonized too. But
Jeremy:
Yeah.
Kyle Doan:
that's a different topic. Yeah, I remember multiple students. So when you go through an organization over the course of 20 plus years, things change. And I'm pretty sure I have relearned, just in this example, my PNN kata, I'm going to say four to five times. And the amount of students that I have had that hated it, they were unwilling to adjust and learn and grow, because they just didn't like the idea of changing, you know, what they had already learned.
Jeremy:
They liked that
Kyle Doan:
But
Jeremy:
the
Kyle Doan:
like,
Jeremy:
box was checked and they could move on.
Kyle Doan:
Exactly, exactly. And it's like, come on, like, that's what karate is. Karate is growth. It's just, it's going to change. Like, if you look at your kata 10 years ago and compare it the same kata now, it better be different. Like, if it isn't, you're doing it wrong.
Jeremy:
Yeah, for sure. For sure. What keeps you motivated? Your training, your teaching, your engagement in content, your coming on here, your talking about starting organizations. This is a huge part of your life. Maybe even the biggest part of your life. I don't know how you would frame that. Okay.
Kyle Doan:
It is. It is.
Jeremy:
And it's been that for a very long time. Why does it remain there?
Kyle Doan:
It's the community. And What my martial arts has allowed me to do to grow the community. From the beginning, money was never really an important factor, which I think on a different note is a problem for me because I don't want to profit off my martial arts and it's something I'm good at and I should, but that's besides the point.
Jeremy:
You don't have to if you don't want to.
Kyle Doan:
Well, capital. capitalistic society, I should probably make a bit of money here and there.
Jeremy:
Well, you should probably eat. Pay your rent.
Kyle Doan:
Exactly. But, um,
Jeremy:
I know people
Kyle Doan:
my
Jeremy:
that
Kyle Doan:
main
Jeremy:
barter
Kyle Doan:
goal,
Jeremy:
training
Kyle Doan:
I'd do
Jeremy:
for food.
Kyle Doan:
it. Um, the ultimate goal is to spread awareness, is to give back to the community, teach martial arts to people and allow them to have an opportunity. to have the same growth I've experienced. I would not be the person I am today. I would not be, I wouldn't be here because I wouldn't be a martial artist, but I wouldn't be able to speak the way I speak if it weren't for my martial arts. It's allowed me to be a confident person. It's allowed me to be good with people. And that's just one aspect of it. And that's what keeps me going. And connecting to uh you know social medias with tiktok uh specifically has allowed me to blow that up and reach out to so many people and the amount of times i've had comments say i haven't done this in years i haven't seen this in years i'm going to start practicing again or thank you for you know the motivation or like i had one recent video and it's one of my favorite videos uh from Um, someone asked about self-confidence, uh, and how to fix that. And I went into some detail and, uh, they're now a lifetime follower. Uh, and I look back on that video and I'm like, holy crap. Like that's a big deal. And the advice I gave them and that's what keeps me going. When I can see that. someone has remotely stepped forward in life because of their martial arts, that's my drive.
Jeremy:
Yeah. to say to that. That's awesome. You know, some of the best
Kyle Doan:
Mike
Jeremy:
emails
Kyle Doan:
drop.
Jeremy:
I get. Boom!
Kyle Doan:
I have a mic here somewhere, I don't know where it went.
Jeremy:
Some of the best emails that I get are those from people who've been, you know, they stepped out of training for a little while. And the way they dip their toe back in is listening to the show. And some of them listen for years, literally years. And they say, you know, I've been listening to the show for two years, three years, five years and I finally heard you. Just do it. Just start. Just get going again. And I did. I went to class last night and I was terrified and it was awesome and thank you. Those are the emails that make me well up inside.
Kyle Doan:
Mm-hmm.
Jeremy:
I've gotten a number of those over the years. And as long as
Kyle Doan:
Bye!
Jeremy:
that happens, I'll keep doing it.
Kyle Doan:
Yeah, and I've seen both ends of it, right? Like I had a very, very dark point in my life. Essentially the end of 2021, up until the summer of 2022, I was the worst I've ever been with my mental health. And at one point I considered the idea of quitting martial arts and stepping away from it entirely. And I took a break, but you never really do. Like it didn't take me long to realize that if I'm going to step away from karate, it's like I'm, I got to rip my skeleton out of my body because it is me. I am my martial arts. And, uh, that experience in itself helped me define that. Um, but like, that's what helped me realize it's in everything I do. It's how I react. It's how I interact with people. It, it's what helps me, you know, at my job, it, I always reference it in some way and I can't separate from it. And yeah, I want to be able to give that. I want to, I want, I hope one day that one other person will have that same drive as me.
Jeremy:
If people want to follow you, find you, tell you that they hate you and you're stupid, how would they do that?
Kyle Doan:
Uh, so my primary source of social media is TikTok. Uh, Kodone3, K-D-O-A-N-3. My first initial, my last name and the
Jeremy:
Why
Kyle Doan:
number
Jeremy:
three?
Kyle Doan:
three. I don't know. Cause
Jeremy:
Were the first
Kyle Doan:
my
Jeremy:
two
Kyle Doan:
name
Jeremy:
taken?
Kyle Doan:
was taken. Probably. I don't know. Uh, I'm actually in the process of thinking up, uh, a name for what I do. because I am no longer defined by a specific organization. Not that I want to start an organization under my martial arts. This organization I discussed earlier is more of a collaborative... teaching group thought experiment.
Jeremy:
It sounds more like an association than an organization.
Kyle Doan:
Yeah, the International Neoclassical Karate and Kabuto Society.
Jeremy:
Okay,
Kyle Doan:
INKKS.
Jeremy:
that's even a better word.
Kyle Doan:
Yes. Which I guess is a shout out there. But that's a whole other topic because that's still kind of in the making right now. But yeah, TikTok. Come
Jeremy:
Well,
Kyle Doan:
see me on TikTok.
Jeremy:
when that's once you and Centaur Ogden have that more dialed in, we'll get the two of you on the show. We can talk about it.
Kyle Doan:
That'd be great. I think she'd love
Jeremy:
I
Kyle Doan:
that.
Jeremy:
can't tell you how much I hope he runs with that, because I think that's all.
Kyle Doan:
I'm probably
Jeremy:
And
Kyle Doan:
gonna call
Jeremy:
just
Kyle Doan:
him after this.
Jeremy:
for folks in the audience who are not on TikTok and have not seen Sensei Pastor Nathan Ogden's content, he's a very kind man. We've had
Kyle Doan:
Oh yeah.
Jeremy:
some back and forths on a number of subjects and he's just, he's super kind, super chill, very thoughtful. Exactly
Kyle Doan:
knowledgeable.
Jeremy:
what you would expect of a kind pastor who also trains right like this You probably have an image of your head of what this person is like. He is like that and I cannot imagine he would find a fence in that I'm sure he's gonna listen to this and find it funny Which is why I keep doubling down on it because it's a great visual, right?
Kyle Doan:
It's fantastic.
Jeremy:
Um, but yeah, we can have you guys on, you know, and let people know what you're doing.
Kyle Doan:
That would be so cool.
Jeremy:
Yeah, yeah. And to the audience, you know, we're gonna we're gonna link all this stuff, photos and all that good stuff in the show notes. Go to whistlekickmarshallartsradio.com. Check out everything there. Go to whistlekick.com. Check out the stuff we've got in the store. Use the code podcast15 to save 15%. Check out our events. Check out all the things that we're doing in support of the traditional martial arts community. And so, Kyle, this is this is it. This is your time to bring it to a close. What What words do you want to leave the audience with today?
Kyle Doan:
One of my favorite quotes, shut up and train. Kindly. I don't know. Yeah, that's been a big thing for me. Shut up and train. And I think that's a great way to end it.