Episode 791 - A Black Belt Journey with Sue Roberts

Sue Roberts is a Martial Arts practitioner, author, and host of the Conversations on Karate Podcast.

A Black Belt Journey with Sue Roberts - Episode 791

Getting a black belt is a memorable event in our journey as martial artists, let alone getting the first one. Sue Roberts, a brown belt on her journey to black, shares with us what her journey is like to get one. We also get to hear from Joe Andrews, Sue’s instructor, and get some insight about her journey from him. Sue is the host of the Conversations on Karate Podcast along with Greg Lynham.

In this very special episode, we take a look at Sue Robert's journey from brown belt to a black. Like a documentary, we cover the before, during, and after her black belt examination. You’ll surely relate to Sue’s story whether you’re a student training for 6 months or 60 years. Listen to learn more!

Show notes

You may check out Sue’s facebook page: www.facebook.com/conversationsonkarate
Get her book on Amazon: https://amzn.eu/d/8L44mhz

Listen to the Conversations on Karate Podcast

Show Transcript

Jeremy Lesniak:

Hey, what's up everybody? Welcome to a special edition of whistlekick Martial Arts Radio. And in today’s episode, we have a bit of a mini documentary where we document the journey to black belt of someone that I have come to respect a great deal. And instead of putting a whole bunch of stuff in the front here to set the tone or distract or give you expectations, instead I’m just gonna let you watch or listen. And in fact, there is video of this. And of all the episodes that we’ve done, this is one of the ones that I think stands up most in video. So if you are used to listening to our shows, please consider watching on YouTube. Hi, Sue! Thanks for coming up!

Sue Roberts:

Hi! You’re welcome. It’s nice to meet you.

Jeremy Lesniak:

Nice to meet you too! This is gonna be fun. I wanna thank you for your trust in trust presenting a poorly defined idea that we wanted to do. Say, hey! Here’s a thing we’ve never done. You don’t know us but we want ro do it. We want to feature you in this undefined not yet done thing. And you said, ok! So I don’t know what that says about you or us. 

Sue Roberts:

I don’t know what it says other than, I think the last 7 years of karate have told me to just, if an opportunity comes up, take it. Try.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

Yeah.

Sue Roberts:

Try.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

Now at this point when we get into the conversation, you know, we'll have an intro that listeners will hear ahead of time. But we're talking today and we'll be talking a few more times because you'll be testing for your black belt. 

Sue Roberts:

Yeah, absolutely. We have a, we have a provisional rough date set in of September this year. Yeah.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

We're talking today. It's July, it's early July. 

Sue Roberts:

Yeah. 

Jeremy Lesniak: 

And so that was the idea was let's talk to somebody about the journey leading up to and into, and coming out of black belt test. And we thought, you know, you're a pro on the microphone. You’re part of a show that Andrew shared with me and I was like, these guys are killing it. 

Sue Roberts:

Oh, that’s nice to hear.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

So we thought, hey, let’s ask Sue if she’d be willing to share a bit of her journey and obviously you said yes. So that's pretty cool.

Sue Roberts:

Absolutely wouldn't say no to this. It's amazing. 

Jeremy Lesniak: 

Seven years, you've been training for seven years. 

Sue Roberts:

Yes. About that, I started at the end of 2015. At the very end, in about November, when I was totally procrastinating on a challenge that I was supposed to do. I'd given myself something to do and I was procrastinating like mad. And the idea just came straight into my head, look for a karate class. 

Jeremy Lesniak: 

Why?

Sue Roberts:

I don't know. I don't know. I'd had a really quick dalliance with karate when I was 19 and I was a nanny back then. And again, I just like had the idea go try karate and I sucked at it. I mean, I was really bad, but I enjoyed it so much. It just… 

Jeremy Lesniak: 

How long did you do it? 

Sue Roberts:

Oh, I don't know, maybe three months.

Jeremy Lesniak: 

Okay. 

Sue Roberts:

And then I changed jobs and I left the area cause that's what it is to be a nanny. You just leave. 

Jeremy Lesniak: 

Sure. 

Sue Roberts:

And I never carried on. And then, so at the end of 2015, like well in to my 40s, this idea just came along. So I found a class and I went. And it was so good. It was so hard. 

Jeremy Lesniak: 

Was it really that, the word that's coming to mind is frictionless.That idea of I should give karate another try. And then you did it. Was it really that fast and that easy for you? 

Sue Roberts:

Yeah. I found a class that was on within a handful of days and I just went. 

Jeremy Lesniak: 

Okay. 

Sue Roberts:

I went. I just thought to myself, you know what? I'm terrified, but there's something about this that I just wanna go and do. I thought, you know what? I do not have to do this. If I don't like it, I can leave. And actually, that thought was in my head for the next two years, constantly. Every time I was sweating, hurting, running, out of breath, getting hit, that thought was always there. I don't have to do this. You don't have to stay, Sue. If you don't like it, you can go. And I was like, nah, nah, no. To hell with that, I'm gonna stay. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

Why did you stay? What was it about what you were experiencing despite the sweating and getting knocked around and whatever else that we, you know, cause we all experience these things, you know. Martial arts and the way we train it, if you really get down to, it's kind of ridiculous. If you pull out any of these individual pieces of what we do, none of them sound fun. 

Sue Roberts:

No. None of it sounds fun. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

But yet they are when, especially when it's all put together. 

Sue Roberts:

Yeah. It is. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

So why? Why for you? 

Sue Roberts:

I don't know. I don't know. It's really hard for me to explain. I think there was something in the personal power that I felt learning how to hit things and hit people and dump them on the ground and just the sheer delight that I took still take. In managing to do something that hitherto would've been almost impossible to me. That just the thought that I can do this, I would go home like so tired and think, oh my God, I did thaI actually did that. And I still get that feeling whenever I have a good class or finally managed to get a takedown on someone. Finally, that feeling is intensely. It is just delight, you know? 

Jeremy Lesniak:

The word that's coming to mind for me is empowerment. 

Sue Roberts:

Well, yeah. I mean, that's a big buzzword, but yeah, empowerment. Absolutely. That I did that. I can do that. I stood toe to toe with a black belt and I held my own. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

Yeah. 

Sue Roberts:

The first time I did that was insane. The first time I did that with like a 14-year-old boy, it was insane, you know. Because they would be fast and they would be strong and aggressive and I'd be like, oh my god, this is so hard. And yet you'd go back and you do it again. And just that progression, that feeling of I can do this. And I mean, oddly enough, I never wanted to grade the first conversation I had with the karate instructors. I didn't know how it worked. I'd just seen a whole bunch of movies, not even martial arts movies, but I just wanted to be able to do that, you know. Like be that guy in the thriller, you know. Not that I wanted to, you know, I just love that being able to like get into a fight and deal with it. Just everyone has an idea in their head, don't they? And so when I went in, he said, what do you want? What do you want from this? And I said, I don't know. I just wanna be really good at this. But I don't need to grade, I don't need to do exams or anything. And he explained very patiently without laughing at me that that's not how it works and that I would be grading. So, okay, well then I guess I'll grade  and just carried on. I just carried on. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

Now you mentioned for the first two years, you had in the back of your mind that you might or could quit. What happened at two years? 

Sue Roberts:

That's an arbitrary timeframe, to be honest with you. That thought still occasionally comes up when something's really hard. I just remind myself, this is an option, this is a choice. Don't have to do this. And it's always that stubborn part of me goes, no, no, no, no. I'm not gonna quit now. No, no, no. I am going to get this, whatever it is that's causing me that problem you know, I choose not to be defeated by that. I know now that I can take as long as it takes to get it. Back then, it was incredibly frustrating. It's still frustrating, but now there's a part of me that knows it's okay if it's gonna take another six months to be able to master that thing. It's fine. So it doesn't matter. So, I mean, I don't really know how long people normally take to get to black belt, but it was never a goal. Never.

Jeremy Lesniak:

Even just, you know, a little while ago, just before you were told you will be part of an upcoming testing. 

Sue Roberts:

Yeah. When I'm told I'm gonna do it, I want to do it well. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

Okay. 

Sue Roberts:

I always wanna do it well. I always want to feel like I've earned it. When I do a grading, I wanna know that I've earned it, that I deserve it, that I'm there. But actually the belt is not the goal. The goal was always to be good. And I know that's a horrible goal because that's so mushy, but I think, I can't describe it any other way. I just want to, I guess, be able to go toe to toe with somebody and do a really good job. That's the only way I can explain it and feel confident about it and know that I can do it. And that's always been kind of the goal. The belt is, it's an honor to me that the people I trained with, that Greg and Joe tell me that I'm ready for this. And I've always just trusted that. They tell me I'm ready for a belt, I'll do what they say. That's fine. I trust that completely. I trust them.

Jeremy Lesniak:

Was that always the case? Like early on, you know, cause you came in not caring about grading or rank when they said I would assume your first rank would've been yellow, yellow belt? 

Sue Roberts:

No. It doesn't work quite that way in our clubs. They all have slightly different patterns, don't they? I think the first one for us is, alright, it's either red or orange, I think. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

Oh, okay.

Sue Roberts:

They all vary. We've discovered this that there's no particular consistency across different place. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

Yes, it's all over the place. 

Sue Roberts:

All over the place. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

So that first whatever that first promotion would've been, you trusted even from them? Uou said, okay.

Sue Roberts:

Yeah, if you tell me that this is what I've gotta do, I'll do that. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

Is that your nature or does this say something about these two gentlemen? 

Sue Roberts:

Well, in that very first one, that was Geoff who had that club. And I just, I guess I didn't know any better. So they said, this is what's gonna be happening, you're gonna do this thing. I said, all right then. I don't really want to, but okay. Do you feel good? Nope. You feel confident? Nope.

No. I was always, I was, oh dear. It's not good, is it? And I would do it and I would always do fine. I would always do fine because I would really prepare for it. I just always wanted, if I was gonna do this thing, wanted to do it well. So I had put a lot of time and effort into practicing and training as hard as I possibly could so that I could get through and, you know, do everything that was asked of me.

Jeremy Lesniak:

Now, I imagine as you moved up through, are you a brown belt? Is this how you guys do this? 

Sue Roberts:

I'm a 1st Kyu, so I'm brown. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

Yeah. 

Sue Roberts:

I’m brown with two white stripes in our club. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

Yep. 1st Kyu, E Kyu. A lot of places, we call it in Japanese. So I imagine as you stepped into that rank, you've got years of history. You probably aren't thinking, oh, you know, I'm gonna just stop doing this at this point which sadly a lot of people do. They stop before black belt. But you likely knew at some point coming soon, someone was going to tell you, you will be testing for Shodan somewhere in the near future.

Sue Roberts:

Yeah. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

Did you think about that?

Sue Roberts:

I just, I try not to, because in my mind, always, even though I know it's not completely true, in my mind, a black belt looks a certain way, sounds a certain way and can accomplish just about anything. It's like a ninja. You know, a black belt to me has always looked like a guy who is super fit, who can do just about anything. So for me, coming up to being a black belt over 50, by no means, amazingly, amazingly, amazingly fit and definitely not able to do everything, there's a huge element of you, but I'm not one of those people. I don't look like that. I don't sound like that. So that's definitely a part of me is still really doubting that this is even possible. And that's always been the case. I feel like I've been told I'm gonna grade, I've practiced for it, done it, done the work, achieved the grading, and then about six weeks later, I feel like I am that grade. So I feel like I've settled into it. In my head, I feel like I've become that great. So I imagine that this is gonna be a very similar thing. They tell me I'm ready. They tell me I'm ready now. I just need to learn some extra things to go through the grading. It doesn't feel that way, but I'm guessing that by the end of the year I will feel like it's real. If that makes any sense at all. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

It does. 

Sue Roberts:

I dunno if anyone else feel, did you feel like that? Do other people feel like that? 

Jeremy Lesniak:

Yes. 

Sue Roberts:

Really? 

Jeremy Lesniak:

The best way I've heard it articulated in, I think I'm comfortable saying most, not all, but most martial arts schools, and we're talking about ones where people are not tested on a fixed schedule. There are schools that will, you know, every three months or six months, everyone tests. And the idea being there are gonna be a lot of failures because you don't know your stuff yet. But there are all kinds of different ways to look at rank and testing within the martial arts. Most karate schools I'm familiar with do what it sounds like your school is doing in that testing occurs based on an instructor saying you are designated to test, you are ready to test.

Sue Roberts:

Yeah. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

And the way I've heard it expressed, you are given the opportunity to test when your instructor knows you are ready for your next rank. You pass when you know you are ready for your next rank. 

Sue Roberts:

Oh, yeah. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

Right? And it's often hard to see that as you're coming up through the ranks but as you look back, when you get to sit on testing boards, when I watch people moving up through, I can look and I can say that person knows where they're at. They know they've put in the hard work, they know they deserve this. This other person thinks they do, but they really don't, and here's someone who hopefully will come to realize that they do, right? So you've got a few different ways that that can manifest. And I would much rather, if I had to pick, if I had students and I had to pick, you know, of those three mindsets, the one I would much rather have are the students who don't think they're ready because they're the ones that are gonna work the hardest generally. Because they're trying to reach a standard that they don't think they can achieve. Now that doesn't happen that way for everyone. Sometimes they don't think they can get there and they get disappointed or frustrated and they quit. And that really, that's a bummer. And then you've got others who are incredibly confident and continue to work hard because they love what they're doing and you know, they do great. But just as a general rule, if I could pick between people who know more than they think they do, or less than they think they do, I'm gonna take the people who know more than they think they do. Cause they don't get themselves into trouble and they keep learning and they're generally there for the right reasons. And it sounds like that's what you're describing. 

Sue Roberts:

Yeah, I think it is. I think it is what you're describing cause I will work to make sure that I don't make it, I don't do it wrong on the day. And I know it's not about the day, it's not about the test, it's actually about everything that came up to the test. It's really about that. And then what happens afterwards. The test is like a confirmation of what they, just proving what you know really. But it's so interesting that you say that because years ago I was really hard on myself one day. And we were finishing up a class and I was about to leave and I was saying, oh, I'll never get this. And I did so badly today. And I just remember, Greg was talking to Brad at the time and he said, you know, you're better than you think you are at the moment. And I was like, really? Yeah, yeah, definitely. So that was like, oh my god. Well, then, maybe I'm not seeing what I'm doing properly. Maybe, maybe they are. So that was, and that was a kind of a revelation of confidence for me. It was like, okay, right. I'm not just at the back sweating all on my own. There are people actually paying attention and saying, yeah, they know where you're at. So, okay. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

Yeah. 

Sue Roberts:

It was quite a big, that was a big moment for me.

Jeremy Lesniak:

Say a little more about that. Did that change the way you approach training or how you felt about yourself or anything? 

Sue Roberts:

Yeah, I think that kind of just realizing that people are you know, you can spend a long time when you're a low belt, you know. Back of the class struggling, trying to copy people, trying to figure out what on earth it is that you are doing. And maybe you're not getting a lot of feedback. Maybe, you know, in a big class that's not always possible, is it? And then when somebody actually takes a moment to tell you that they are seeing you work and that they can see that you're improving that just for a moment, it just lets you feel seen. It's like, okay, I do exist and I am progressing and that's all good. I'm not just toiling away in the background. And I think it's the same for both of them, for Greg and Joe, that they both pay so much attention to how people are doing. They give feedback. A lot of feedback, especially these days in the classes. To all the students about how they're doing. You know, they're free with the paying attention. You know, that was a great kick. I saw that. Well done. You know, it's constant. And you can see people just shine when they get that. Like, yeah, I did that well. So when there's a lot of feedback coming, you know, it's like, that was a really good kick, but hold on just one second.

Let's just correct that. There you go. And it's a method of teaching that is, it never makes you feel bad. So you can be corrected all day like that, and you'll take it happily because you are getting, you know, it's not, hey, we think you're great. That was terrible, but hey, you're still great. It's not a, you know, the sandwich, you know what I mean? Like, compliment, insult, compliment. It's like, you're doing really well there. I can see that. Just want you to correct this one thing and then move on and keep working. Yeah. So it's the method of teaching that I think is extremely supportive, beneficial, you know, I like it.

Jeremy Lesniak:

It sounds like, and I'm sure you know, everyone's inferred that these two gentlemen are your instructors. They are the ones overseeing you. And I wanna hear a little bit more about each of them in a moment, but what I'm kind of reading between the lines is that your personality of wanting to be able to trust the people guiding you so you can just kind of put your head down and focus and do the work is really, that works because of the way they're teaching. Because they are providing you feedback. They're giving you the safe, you're feeling safe and comfortable in your training so you can trust the process. Is that a fair statement to make? 

Sue Roberts:

Yeah, I think that's a fair statement to make. I mean, it's also changed, you know, over the years. I mean, Geoff's class was, in some ways a more traditional one where we had the light. So when I say traditional, I mean kata, kihon, kumite, but still very, very practical. We were sparring, I was sparring from day one. So, and then Greg's class was like even more practical. There was less katat, there was less line work, way more practical. And then we moved from, Greg stopped that club and we moved to Joe, who then was doing things a little more traditionally again. So I was kind of moved back to that. But at that point, I was still training with Greg because he was doing Sunday morning classes. He invited me to come and train. It was kind of like almost a little bit more informal training with himself, Brad, and anyone else who wanted to be there. And it was that, that time then during those informal classes where it was gloves on and let's do this, you know, or I would come in with a question like, I'm gonna do a kata Godan for my next test and I don't know. I'm gonna have to work out some moves for it. And he would go through, right, go down first move. I'm gonna show it to you. I'll show you how it works. I'm gonna get you to do it on me. I’m gonna drill this for like five minutes, drill it, work it, and then right now let's do a little light spar and then throw the technique in. Five minutes doing that. Now we're gonna spar and you would find an opportunity to throw the technique. So in half an hour we'd have that done. Totally practical. And the fact, and just really open to having that conversation, letting me ask those questions you know. And I've come to find that that's not that common in karate to be able to just ask questions and explore stuff. And granted it was a, you know, obviously a very small class and that's not available to everyone. And I totally get that. But I think having that ability to be able to just say, ask questions and work things out in a really speedy way, which is quite like Iain Abernathy has done also in some of his seminars. You know him obviously. It's a really quick way to learn something and get it into your head as a student. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

Right. The idea of taking any material and approaching it in as many different ways as possible right away and just fully integrating it, I think makes all kinds of sense. How did you feel when you were told you were gonna be testing? Did it feel any different from when you were told prior you would be testing? 

Sue Roberts:

Yeah, I feel cold all over.

Jeremy Lesniak:

Really? 

Sue Roberts:

Yeah. Cold all over. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

Okay. Wow. 

Sue Roberts:

Bit sick. I instantly went to the day of the grading and oh my god, I'm gonna have to do all of this, and they're all going to be watching, and I've got to learn all of those kata. I need to revise everything and three months isn't enough time, and I need to just stop my entire life so that I can just spend all day practicing everything. That's where my mind goes to immediately. Not irrational at all. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

No, no. Not a bit. And so we're about a month into that three month period. Have you quit your job and you know, told everyone to go away and you're practicing 16 hours a day? 

Sue Roberts:

No, no. I haven't done any of those things, but I have really concentrated now on practicing. On practicing kata because that's a space I don't spend a great deal of time on. And our training is pretty full on. It tends to be quite practical. I know that we are training a lot of what I'm going to need to be doing. So the things that I'm concentrating on right now is getting fitness back because I got really fit a couple of months ago for a competition, but I've not been keeping it up as much as I should. So I need to get that back cause I know it's gonna be a, you know, an exhausting thing. And getting back to getting my katas so that I know that I've got those sharp. One of my worst fears in the world is standing there in front of a room full of people and drying. I don't know what to do. I don't know what comes next. That's the horror for me. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

Has that happened in any of your prior tests? 

Sue Roberts:

Nope. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

And because of that, and only because you answered in that way, I will share what I remember as the most terrifying thing leading up to my black, my first black belt test. I was confusing halfway through Pinan, Yodan and Godan. I was starting with Yodan and ending with Godan. And it kept happening. And we're like two weeks out from testing and I'm going, what is happening? Why is this happening? I can't do. And I just remember this panicky feeling. I just, oh, uh, uh. 

Sue Roberts:

What if it happens on the day? 

Jeremy Lesniak:

Okay. And it, you know, it was one of those that the more you try to force it, the worse it got. And I just, and I remembered the day that it started happening and I went, okay, I just need to leave. And I just, I stopped, I just went home. And it happened a couple more times, but not every time. And I said, all right, this is, I'm overthinking. I'm overthinking this. And on the day of testing, I was fine.

Sue Roberts:

Yeah. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

I mean, it was, my forms were fine, my technique was fine. The things I had control of, I was fine. It was still difficult, you know. This is about you, so we're not gonna go into that. But I'm curious, this preparation stage, cause that's really what we're talking about here, this preparation. Have you learned anything about yourself even in this last month as you prepare? Have there been any realizations, epiphanies, insights, et cetera? 

Sue Roberts:

I realize that, I know that a lot of people get to black belt and quit. I've heard that that happens. I've seen that happen a couple of times and I'm determined that that won't happen to me. So when I realized like a few years ago that I was in this and I wasn't gonna stop, I thought to myself, well, if people quit at 1st dan, I'm not gonna stop until I get to at least 2nd. So, never had a black belt goal, but I did kind of have a 2nd dan goal. And I don't know how much further I could possibly get given my grand age. I don't know. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

There are, I will guarantee there are people right now, I bet yelling at the speakers because they've got plenty of ears on you. 

Sue Roberts:

Yeah. Oh well, that's okay. If they wanna yell, they can also just send me a message and tell me personally cause that would be great. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

Just typing to you in all caps. 

Sue Roberts:

Shut up, Sue. Which I get told a lot. Stop busing. No, I think I was quite surprised that the things that have worried me, that it's getting things like kata that are worrying me. I'm surprised that I'm less troubled by the sparring that I'm gonna have to do. We took part in a competition in Bournemouth in England a couple of months ago. So I'm guessing it was about May. And that was the most terrifying, terrifying experience I have ever had, ever. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

Worse than any of your testings? 

Sue Roberts:

Worse than any of them. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

Why?

Sue Roberts:

I mean, I literally turned around to leave the room so many times. I was so scared. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

Why didn't you leave the room? What kept you?

Sue Roberts:

Pride. Pride. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

Pride? 

Sue Roberts:

Pride. Pride. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

Pride in the note in front of whom? 

Sue Roberts:

I wasn't gonna let the girls and they were, God, they were good. Who were literally kicking my head in. I wasn't gonna let them see me leave. I was gonna see it out because having had my head thoroughly kicked in the first one, I knew that I wasn't gonna die. I knew it was just hurt, pride and pain and fear that I was feeling. So, I wasn't gonna actually leave the room. And they were so good. So yeah, that was genuinely, I've never felt anything like the adrenaline dump that I felt at that moment. Stepping onto the mat for the first time, I felt outside of my body. And so I guess part of me feels, I trained hard for that. I trained really, really hard for that. And we've set up extra training sessions, extra sparring sessions that still exist. And I know that I train hard and I know that I train with the guys. I know I work hard at those things. So the worst that can happen, the worst that could happen is that I don't do brilliantly you know. And that's fine. That's fine. It depends who they get me to spar with. Some people will be much better than me, stronger, faster. That's not hard. So my job is actually to do what I can do the best that I possibly can do. And also, as I said before, they think that I'm ready for it. And I know that they wouldn't do that. If I wasn't ready, they'd be saying, you'll do your black belt suit but you're not ready yet. It'll be next year. And I'd be fine with that. That honestly wouldn't bother me. So, that bit, I know I'm gonna have to do it and I'm a bit worried about it, but, it's the other stuff. But yeah, when I really think about it, I do go cold all over. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

So you and I are gonna talk again in about six weeks or so? 

Sue Roberts:

Yeah.

Jeremy Lesniak:

What, we'll be checking, we probably won't be talking as long. What do you think you're gonna tell me then? What are you hoping you're gonna tell me? 

Sue Roberts:

Just before? 

Jeremy Lesniak:

Yeah. 

Sue Roberts:

Just before. I hope I'll be telling you, I've practiced hard. I feel like my sparring has gone up another couple of levels and I've been able to master a couple of things that I'm still finding really challenging now.

Jeremy Lesniak:

Like what? 

Sue Roberts:

Oh, takedowns. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

Okay. 

Sue Roberts:

Takedowns. I can do a takedown and I can spar, but I just find it really hard still to get the entry. It's ridiculous. And I keep training it. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

Are you not getting tight enough? Are you trying to do too far front, too far out? 

Sue Roberts:

I keep at the moment when I'm under pressure, I reach for it rather than get into the right position. And under pressure is when it counts. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

Yep. 

Sue Roberts:

So I just need to keep practicing it slow and then going under pressure, which is what I'm doing. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

Good. 

Sue Roberts:

And they're also patient and we do that a lot in class, you know, we do it a lot in class. It is part of what we do as part of our regular training is entry into takedowns and takedowns and then what you do when you get on the ground. So it's all there. I just need to drill it and practice it at home a lot more than I do, you know. Off the kata, you know 

Jeremy Lesniak:

If you could leave yourself a message, right, because later we're gonna end up editing this stuff together. So we're gonna sign off here and you're gonna pick it up in six weeks. What are you telling yourself, six weeks? I mean, we talked about what you would hope for, but like a direct message, like an instruction. Some kind of a setup. 

Sue Roberts:

Just practice. Okay. Stop fussing about it. Just do some practice. It's going to be fine. If you've practiced and you've shown them what you can do, you'll be fine.

Sue Roberts:

I'm here. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

I'm glad. 

Sue Roberts:

So am I. It's good to see you again. How you doing? 

Jeremy Lesniak:

Me too. I'm well, thank you.  And yourself? 

Sue Roberts:

Yeah. Very good. Thank you. Very, very good. Yes. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

Okay. Alright. Well, this one's gonna be short. We're just gonna talk for a little bit, but it all falls a pretty simple single question. 

Sue Roberts:

Yeah.

Jeremy Lesniak:

How are you feeling? 

Sue Roberts:

Terrifying. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

It's this coming weekend? 

Sue Roberts:

Yes. This Sunday. It's happening this Sunday. Yeah. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

So is that five days? Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, five days. Five days. 

Sue Roberts:

Yeah. Five days. Yeah. Yeah. I go between thinking, you know, it is gonna be fine. These are people I know. They know that I can do this. This is gonna be fine. It's two and a half hours, it's gonna be okay. I've just gotta stick through it. Remember everything I can and do it. That's one thought and that is… 

Jeremy Lesniak:

What's the other half?

Sue Roberts:

Driven out by I can't do it. I can't. I can't. I'm not, I'm gonna throw up, I'm gonna faint. I'm gonna forget everything. I even went blank on Heian Shodan this morning. I just like, oh, for goodness sake. I just forgot how to end it. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

Yeah. I've been there. 

Sue Roberts:

Have you? 

Jeremy Lesniak:

I've been there. Oh yeah. 

Sue Roberts:

Oh my god.  

Jeremy Lesniak:

Just before, I mean, it was like in the final week I was blending Yodon and Godan. 

Sue Roberts:

Yeah. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

I'd start Yodon and end Godan.

Sue Roberts:

Yeah. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

And it was more than once. It was, no, no, I can't do that and I'd do it again. It's like, oh my god. So I get it. 

Sue Roberts:

Yeah. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

Terrifying.

Sue Roberts:

Yeah. So, it's not just the getting it wrong that worries me. It's what I'll do if I get it wrong, you know. If I get it wrong, will I panic? Will I freeze? Will I just stop? 

Jeremy Lesniak:

Is that generally how you react to things like that? 

Sue Roberts:

No. No. Well, kind of yes and no. I mean, that kind of, your brain just freezing up, does happen. It happens in sparring sometimes. If I get, sometimes if I get surprised by something I can find that happens to me, I just like, stop for a second. I shouldn't say that should I? But… 

Jeremy Lesniak:

That happens. 

Sue Roberts:

But yeah, I tend to just freeze when things go wrong. So I hope, but that's never happened yet in a grading. Not yet. I mean, I've done a lot of gradings now. I'm not sure how many, but I've done, I must have done about seven. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

Yeah. 

Sue Roberts:

So I've never yet completely frozen.

Jeremy Lesniak:

Is anybody other than you putting pressure on you? 

Sue Roberts:

I wouldn't say it's pressure. I mean, several of our classes have been devoted to practice and revision. So it's there. And quite a lot of us are going through this. There's a reasonable amount of us who are going for gradings. I actually can't remember how many now, but I think it may be seven of us. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

Okay. Anybody else for Shodan? 

Sue Roberts:

No, they're all going, there's someone going for 3rd, someone going for 2nd, I think. So a couple of people going for 2nd, quite a few actually. That's the main one going for second. One going for 3rd and someone going for 1st Kyu. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

Okay. 

Sue Roberts:

All in the same grading, so yeah. But no, I don't think anyone else is really putting pressure on, as such. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

But that doesn't make it easier. 

Sue Roberts:

It doesn't make it easier. No, it doesn't. But like I say, I've got these two, at least two mindsets.

You know, I'm being conservative when I say I've got those two mindsets. I think I've got another three. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

Well, what else are you feeling? Those are probably the loudest voices, but what else is chiming in? 

Sue Roberts:

What else is chiming in? The looking forward to it being done. That's quite a big one. I'm looking, I found myself this week thinking, you know what, this time next week will be done. One way or another, you know, I'll have done all of this and if I failed, well then I'll have to sit here and tell you that I failed. I don't wanna have to do that. I really don't wanna have to do that. So there's some pressure there as well. Cause you know, a lot of people know that I'm doing this, so, but I think that's always the pressure, isn't it? When you're doing something and a lot of people know it, but everyone I know that if I actually asked them, they'd all say, oh, that's okay, you know, if you don't get there, it's fine. You just redo it. Just wait a few months and you'll be fine next time. I know that. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

And you've probably said that.

Sue Roberts:

I would say it to anybody. Yeah. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

But it's different when it's you. 

Sue Roberts:

It's different when it's you. Yeah. I guess that's a lot of ego in there, just kind of like, I don't wanna show myself up. You know, I don't wanna fail. But I fail all the time at karate. I do it every, I do it on a weekly basis and that's fine because that's how I learn. You know, you try, you fail, you try, you fail. You just do it over and over again until you get there. You know, the amount of times I try and do takedowns and simply can't get there. And that's kind of okay because, you know, you'll get there in the end. And even if under like extreme pressure, you still can't get there. But that still doesn't necessarily matter. But this time you're doing it for something, you're doing it for something to be judged, to be examined, to be watched, to be judged on it. It makes it very different, you know? So normally I'm just happy to learn, fail, get better. Even then now I do still get very frustrated when things don't go my way. You know, I still go home thinking, I can't do this. It's too hard. But doing it for an exam, the pressure is very different. It’s very like getting ready for a competition. The competition that I did, I've only done the one, but, you know, there, I think what you have, what I'm having with this is this kind of, this feeling of accelerated learning. Like everything coming together into one point, you know. Dragging up everything that I've learned. And kind of as I look back through all the syllabus because you've gotta know all of the syllabus, and it's only then that I kind of realize that how many times my syllabus has changed. Because I've, I must have been through at least four different, at least four different syllabus by now. So, what people are learning in their first year is what I learned a couple of years ago. Yeah. So it's very different. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

I would imagine that when you think about all the different things that are gonna come up in this exam, there are some that you're looking at and saying, you know what? This is gonna be easier than this. 

Sue Roberts:

Yeah. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

Is there one part of it that you're looking at and saying if I can get through that part if I can just stumble my way past if they just don't tell me to leave the floor once I get past and I can get through this part, I know I'll be okay.

Sue Roberts:

I think the parts for me that stress me the most, that I'll be glad to get done are the kata and the sparring. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

Those are big parts. 

Sue Roberts:

Those are, yeah, those are big, big parts. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

Yeah. 

Sue Roberts:

We are doing a lot of stuff on pads with various different combinations on pads, legs, some pads and that's kind of okay. I feel like I can do what's thrown at me with that. I've done it many times and I feel pretty okay with it. Even if I screw that up, I know that I can then correct it. I know that that's not the end of the world. I feel at home with that. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

Yeah. 

Sue Roberts:

But then you're doing it with a partner, so maybe it feels a little bit different. Maybe it still feels a little bit supported, you know what I mean? 

Jeremy Lesniak:

Yeah. 

Sue Roberts:

Whereas, kata, that could be anything. It's not just one kata anymore, it could be quite a lot of them that are thrown at you. And theory too. We get theory questions in our grading. And they can be anything and just, well, they'll all be in the syllabus. But they can be thrown at you at any time. And Joe's really good at that. He kind of just tends to throw something random at you in class in these last few weeks to kind of get you used to the idea of just having to drag something up. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

Will the people evaluating you be all people that you know or are there special guests coming?

Sue Roberts:

No, we have not. I don't think we have any special guests. Not that I'm aware of. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

Okay. 

Sue Roberts:

No, not that I'm aware of. I think the time we had a special guest, it was Andy Kidd who came to evaluate us one year and that was very different. He's funny. He's a really funny guy. But no, I think, actually, it's just Greg and Joe who are doing it this year.

Jeremy Lesniak:

Okay. 

Sue Roberts:

Yeah. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

They know you. 

Sue Roberts:

They do. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

So they're gonna push you. 

Sue Roberts:

They're gonna push absolutely. They want it. They want this to be a test. They want it to be a hard test. But also, the way that our club does it is, you don't get invited to grade unless you're ready to grade. They don't just have this whole, you know, gradings thing that happen every three months. So, I know that I'm ready to grade. Just depends on whether I can actually do it all on the day. Whether I can, yeah. But at the moment, I just feel nervous all the time, at the moment. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

I believe it. I've been there. I get it. Get it. 

Sue Roberts:

Yeah. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

I think you're gonna do fine. 

Sue Roberts:

Why do you think that? 

Jeremy Lesniak:

I do. 

Sue Roberts:

Why do you think that?

Jeremy Lesniak:

Because the people who are nervous, generally prepare. They do all they can. And like you said, you've been invited to test because they believe you're ready. 

Sue Roberts:

Yeah. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

And so the question is, do you believe you're ready on such a level that you're going to be able to make it happen?

Sue Roberts:

I believe that I can complete this test. I believe I have a fair shot at completing this test. I go between thinking that the sparring will be too hard and I will fail at it, but I also know that that is irrelevant. If I can actually just go through the sparring and do what I normally do, that is actually okay. You know, I don't have to objectively win everything because that would mean the person sparring against me would effectively lose and that's not going to happen. You just have to actually demonstrate that you're doing it. I know I'm not gonna get killed. So, I think I can do, I think I should be able to, you know, I've been working on being better again and I have practiced a lot and I've, we have to do this thing. But I'll tell you that in a minute. So do I feel like I can? I do feel like I can, but do I feel like I will actually be a black belt afterwards? I still have a real thing with like black belt really? Really? 

Jeremy Lesniak:

That's a whole other thing to unpack. 

Sue Roberts:

It is. And we've done it a few times on our podcast and you know, we've talked to Ken Knight about that as well. He's done some really interesting discussion on his YouTube about what makes a black belt and that still doesn't feel real. And what's interesting is the other people's reaction to, oh my god, you're gonna be a black belt, or I mustn't mess with you. And that's everyone. So strange to me. So strange to me. But yeah, we have to demonstrate three takedowns, three submissions, and three escapes. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

Okay. 

Sue Roberts:

And I simplify everything down to the smallest way that I can possibly do it. I really do. And this morning, we had… do you? Do you do that as well?

Jeremy Lesniak:

Why make it fancier than it has to be? There's more opportunity for messing it up. 

Sue Roberts:

Well, you see, I can't remember them. I get really, like a lot of people, you trying to learn something even though it's something you know, you're trying to memorize it. Make sure you don't forget them on the day. When invited, you know, step on the mat please, and show me your submissions. I was like, well what are they? I don't know. They could be anything. So I've ended up with this thing where my escapes and  I've written them down because I have to shrimp turnover pass. I just thought, oh, shrimp turnover. I'll pass on that. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

It does sound terrible. That's what wanna eat. 

Sue Roberts:

Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And yeah, and I've worked at my submissions with, you know, silly little dance and yeah. So I've just done this thing with just making it all really simple as much as I can, so that I've got them. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

Do you wanna hear my prediction?

Sue Roberts:

Yes. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

Five minutes in, you'll be fine. 

Sue Roberts:

You think? 

Jeremy Lesniak:

I do. Because I think you're gonna, because I think at some point you're gonna get out there and you're gonna realize it's really not that different from a class. It's just a long class. 

Sue Roberts:

Yeah. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

It's a long class with broader things that you're covering and there's a result. But like you said, you know this stuff. You've been training this stuff. They're trying to help you. They're preparing you. 

Sue Roberts:

Yes. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

And the fact that you know, I don't think I've known anybody who hasn't been nervous for their black belt test ever. 

Sue Roberts:

No. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

Not to care. 

Sue Roberts:

Oh yeah. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

So I think you'll be fine. I do

Sue Roberts:

That's really nice of you to say that. That's really nice of you to say that. I'm still not completely convinced, but you're making… 

Jeremy Lesniak:

That's okay. 

Sue Roberts:

You're making the voice in my head that says, you know what? It'll be okay. It's two and a half hours. You've done this, you've done it over and over again. Yeah. That, you know, that voice is definitely in there. So I'm trying to listen to that a little bit more you know, just. And I think you are right. There will be a point, you know, I'll be going up until that class shaking all over and then 10 minutes in I'll be thinking, oh, this is okay. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

Try to enjoy it. It's something you're gonna remember for the rest of your life so try to have some fun in there. 

Sue Roberts:

Yeah. And the thing is, of course, everyone's going through it. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

Yeah. 

Sue Roberts:

Everyone in that room is gonna be going through it as well. And I guess I'd love to know, I mean, I wonder what the instructors are feeling. I mean, they're putting you through it and they want you to pass, so what are you going through as an instructor taking through your students? That must be really challenging for them. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

It can be. 

Sue Roberts:

It must be if you've got someone you know they've worked and you know they've tried and they're just not getting there in the test, that must be really tough too.

Jeremy Lesniak:

Every school has a little bit of a different philosophy on what a black belt means, and that's what the test means. 

Sue Roberts:

Yeah. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

So those thoughts are, can vary a bit, but you know, I don't wanna speculate what your instructors look at it as, but I think you're right. It is challenging because you're pushing people, you know, you've got a responsibility to help them reach that next level.

Sue Roberts:

Yeah. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

And sometimes that requires a push. And not everyone likes to be pushed. 

Sue Roberts:

No. No. No, they don't. But I suppose, yeah, they've gotta do it and you just, it wouldn't be a test if not, you know? And I think that's the thing. If when people say to me, oh, you'll be fine, you'll be fine, you'll be fine. You know, you can do it. I just think, yeah, but it's still a test. It's still a test. It has to be, it has to be something that's hardened. Something that's really gonna put you through it, or it wouldn't be a fair test. And I have no doubt that those two are gonna make us work really hard. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

And you will mess things up. You will probably forget something. You'll probably do something wrong in a dumb way that you've never messed up before.

Sue Roberts:

Yeah. Yeah. I probably will. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

Because I haven't participated in or seen a black belt test where that didn't happen for every single person. 

Sue Roberts:

Really? 

Jeremy Lesniak:

Yeah. Oh, I messed that up? I never messed that up. Well. 

Sue Roberts:

Yeah, I suppose it's a little bit akin to you doing the perfect thing, the perfect work in line all the time, or the perfect takedown over and over and over again, and your teacher turns around and looks at you and you instantly fall on your ass. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

Yep. Exactly. It's okay. 

Sue Roberts:

Keep that. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

It's okay. 

Sue Roberts:

Yeah, you instantly fall over. Joe did that the other week. We were practicing defending, we were doing single legs and somebody taking your leg and then sort of reaching over and taking their belt and then bringing them over backwards with you and rolling. And of course, I was doing it over and over again beautifully. And then Joe decided to film and he pointed the camera at me, and then it just all completely stopped and it just ended up just falling over. It was just, I can imagine that our test will be a lot like that. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

So I know we're gonna talk again next week after.

Sue Roberts:

 Yes. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

But I think the last thing you've probably thought about, you said it's a Sunday test, so that gives you Saturday to kind of last-minute prepare whatever that looks like you know. For some people might involve food or sleep or going, doing anything that distracts them. What's your Saturday gonna look like? 

Sue Roberts:

My Saturday is actually gonna be, I have a relative that I care for, so that's my Saturday. So my Saturday night, my Saturday morning will probably be some fitness and some practice I'll probably just run through. I'm trying like every other day to just run through every single kata. So just, because I find that helps me in my sparring as well, it kind of makes me remember that there are angles and things to do you know. Just kind of like get that in there. So I'll probably do that in the morning and then do something, do my family stuff in the afternoon, and then try and drink a lot in the evening of water. Not beer. Water. I find I've worked really much better if I get myself, if I really top myself up on water the day before something so that I sleep really well. I'll try and get a decent night's sleep if I can. And, you know, I'll try and just get some light exercise in there. Maybe do a karate-based HI-IT you know. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

Yeah.

Sue Roberts:

There won't be any point. I just run through things to get loose and I'll probably do the same thing on a Sunday morning to be honest. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

What time of the day is the test? 

Sue Roberts:

It's at 5:00 in the afternoon. So it's from 5:00 til 7:30. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

Okay. 

Sue Roberts:

Yeah, because our normal class is on a Sunday night.

Jeremy Lesniak:

Oh. 

Sue Roberts:

So they're actually bringing the class forward so that the class is actually taking part, in part of the grading. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

Oh, that's cool. 

Sue Roberts:

So yeah, so they're gonna do all the really tough, all the pads and the, everything is gonna happen in the first hour and then all the really physical stuff like the sparring is gonna happen all the way at the end when we're exhausted.

Jeremy Lesniak:

Yeah. 

Sue Roberts:

Yeah. They wanna see if we can do it. If we've got enough guts to keep going. I know that's what they want. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

You're gonna do great. You're gonna do great. 

Sue Roberts:

I'm just gonna record you saying that on my phone so I can listen to it later. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

That’s fine. It's fine. Yeah. Grab your phone. I'll say it right now. 

Sue Roberts:

You're gonna do great now.

Jeremy Lesniak:

I have no doubt that you will do great. 

Sue Roberts:

Yeah. I'm sure that everyone who listens to this will say, yeah, that's like me. Only I was worse at the amount of people who tell me they're thrown up in their black belt test. What is that all about? What? Is that just a mixture of exhaustion and stress?

Jeremy Lesniak:

Usually, that comes from people who, in my experience, didn't sleep well or didn't hydrate. Right? The things that were in their control leading up to it, they didn't do them. 

Sue Roberts:

Okay. Right. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

Or it's really, really hot. 

Sue Roberts:

Yeah. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

I've seen tests like that. 

Sue Roberts:

Yeah. It won't be really, really hot here. Coming into colder weather now. It shouldn't be anyway. It might be, but we don't have a big dojo, so, but I instantly turn into a tomato as soon as I get really, really hot anyway, so all my grading pictures will be everyone looking proud here. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

Perfect. I look forward to seeing them. 

Sue Roberts:

A little tomato standing in the middle of all of them.

Jeremy Lesniak:

Well, before we cut, what do you right now wanna say to you next week? 

Sue Roberts:

I wanna be saying well done, well done for sticking to it and going through it, and well done on passing. That's what I wanna be saying. I wanna know that I did well. More than anything, I want to know I did well.

Jeremy Lesniak:

What were your first impressions of Sue when you started working with her? 

Geoff Richards:

Right, so the first time I met Sue was, she came to train with us, when Greg came to train with us. So same before about Greg as an instructor closed his club came to train with us and he brought some students with him, and Sue was one of them. And I'd loved her straight away. She was such a lovely, lovely lady and clearly took her training seriously at this point. She was a yellow belt, so I think she was on her, if I'm right in saying, I think she was on her third or fourth belt at this point, depending on what their belt system was. And she was heavily invested in martial arts beyond the physical training. You know, she was interested in reading what people had to say and going and meeting new people. And I mean, you could tell that just from her contribution to the conversation on Karate Podcast is that it's not just Greg, it's Greg and Sue. They're a fantastic partnership. They can take karate from different perspectives. They're different grades and they have slightly different karate backgrounds, but both their voices are valid. So I'm always interested in talking to Sue about what she thinks of karate and what she thinks about what we do. And she's progressed perfectly to the grade that she's now.So she's a 1st Kyu now. And there are so many examples I can give of the kind of martial artist she is that we didn't even have to go and say to her, go and train with other people. She was doing it. She was off, she was going, and she does online training. She goes to seminars and trains with people wherever, you know, there might be examples where me and Greg can't go, but she'll go anyway. You know, she's not walking in our shadow. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

Yeah. She's not afraid to be of her own martial arts. 

Geoff Richards:

Absolutely not. Yeah. I mean, she might say that she is. She go, oh, I'm terrified. She'll do it anyway. Like we did a competition early this year. We did the Applied Karate Academy Kumite competition. And she was going, oh, I'm terrified. Absolutely terrified. I don't, I dunno what's gonna happen. And she was like that all the time leading up to it, all the way there in the journey, I'm terrified. I thought, what's gonna happen? I'll go, I'm gonna get me head kicked in. I dunno what’s gonna happen. Then as soon as the ref said how she won, she was in the zone and she did an amazing job. And that just, that is just a living embodiment of what martial arts can do for people. It's that little push from behind for people that go, I'm terrified. That's the difference with her. She can say I don't wanna do this, I don't wanna do this, I don't wanna do this and then she does it which is in itself is inspiring as opposed to yeah, it's great to see people go, yeah, yeah, I'm well up for it. Let's do it and they go in for it. But for someone that feels that way, but does it anyway, I mean, that shows real strength. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

Yeah.

Geoff Richards:

And I have no doubt that if she keeps progressing that the way that she is, she is gonna have a huge effect on the martial arts community.

Jeremy Lesniak:

We're gonna edit this piece into some other things that we're doing with her, so she won't hear your words until after, certainly after her test, you know? 

Geoff Richards:

Yeah. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

We're, I'm sure we're both hopeful that she completes it passes, et cetera, but we don't know, you know, this is not guaranteed. 

Yeah.

Jeremy Lesniak:

But on the other side, say something to her. What would you say to Sue? What would you want Sue to hear from you, you know, that you don't mind sharing with the rest of the world a few months from now?

Geoff Richards:

I'd say to her, you are a representative of the martial art world, and what you've done for the world so far is levels above what everyone else is doing, or certainly the the general popultaion of the martial arts community. Keep doing what you're doing, keep growing at the rate that you are, keep smiling. That always helps. And continue to inspire, continue to educate and when you get to that point that you decide to become a teacher, if you wanna become a teacher, is to keep that, always keep that with you, is that there's always more for me to learn and there's always more people to interview. There's more wisdom that either I can put on the world or that I can go and talk to people that can also do that. So she's contributing in multiple ways and I'm quite envious to be honest. I think she's gonna have, regardless of grade, I think she's gonna have a tremendous effect on the martial art. So you just got your 1st dan? 

Sue Roberts:

I did. 

Geoff Richards:

How's it feel? 

Sue Roberts:

It feels good. I'm gonna show it to you. It feels exciting. 

Geoff Richards:

Let's see it. 

Sue Roberts:

It's like really exciting. I never thought that this, here you go. It is my black belt. 

Geoff Richards:

Do you ever think this was gonna happen? 

Sue Roberts:

No. No, because when I started, like I've told Gia and told loads of people, I never even aim for it. I just wanted to do it and enjoy myself. So this was never even, it only started to be on the horizon, like in the last couple of years. And I thought, what if I do it? I just, I don't wanna stop. If I was ever, and I don't think I ever told you this, but I thought to myself, I know some people stop at black belt, so I thought if I'm never gonna go there, if I'm gonna aim for anything, I'll aim for 2nd dan. I'll never aim for one. 

Geoff Richards:

That's fair. 

Sue Roberts:

So, there we go. So I'm a bit shocked to be fair cause it's grown to a halt in my kata, twice. Stood there for what felt like half an hour. 

Geoff Richards:

How did that feel when that happened? 

Sue Roberts:

I started laughing. I dunno if you could see that, but I started to get this huge smile on my face cause I was thinking, I can't believe this happened. Not at the bits where I normally get stuck, but at a totally different bit cause I remembered the kiai’s, normally I forget them all. So I think I was probably so flummoxed that I got those bit right, that I just then went and forgot the rest. 

Geoff Richards:

Yeah. 

Sue Roberts:

But see, I didn't actually forget it. I just ground to a halt and stood there and then I know this bit and then I carried on. But that's okay. Got there, got there in the end. 

Geoff Richards:

So what was going from your mind when we said like the grading's done? Me and Greg gonna have a chat. 

Sue Roberts:

Ah, relief, relief, relief. Done, finished, over. Can do no more. Just, you know, but I, all I wanted at the beginning was to do a good job. You know, past fail? I wanted to do a decent job. I wanted to come away from it feeling proud of myself. That's it. That's all I wanted to, I just wanted to feel proud of myself, no matter all the things that I couldn't control, I knew there'd be all sorts of things I wouldn't be able to control, but I wanted to think afterwards that I'd done a good job.

Geoff Richards:

Yeah. 

Sue Roberts:

Did I do a good job? 

Geoff Richards:

You did a fantastic job. Otherwise, we wouldn't have promoted you. 

Sue Roberts:

Yeah. I thought I did a good job as well. 

Geoff Richards:

Good. 

Sue Roberts:

Reasonably, you know? 

Geoff Richards:

Yeah. 

Sue Roberts:

It's a few things that I always wish I could do more. I know I'm gonna go home and start picking it apart. 

Geoff Richards:

So, just, so from this moment now, what could you work on from what you took just from that? 

Sue Roberts:

I know that I'm weak. I know where I'm weak. I know that. In standup sparring, I feel okay. I know that on the ground I can kind of cope, I can do takedowns. But for me, it's always about the transition from one end to the next. That's where my confidence is gone. Not, not gone, but that's where I want to, that's something that I want to like work on and find the confidence. I think it might even just be that I've got injured twice doing that. 

Geoff Richards:

Yeah. 

Sue Roberts:

You know, just something is, sat there just slowing me down, but that's okay. That's okay. It's not a race. 

Geoff Richards:

So how are you feeling running up to today? 

Sue Roberts:

So the 24 hours before the grading, I've been all the way through. I've been all the way through every feeling. So the 24 hours, yesterday I wasn't too bad. The night before that I was terrified and then I had a big old moment of clarity that everyone was gonna be going through the same thing and that everyone would be nervous. I knew I would be nervous, but I also was convinced that I had to be perfect. And that's always what is nagging away at me, that I have to be perfect in order to be good at anything. That I can't be flawed. Even though, I would say to anybody else on the planet, it's fine to be flawed. It's completely okay. 

Geoff Richards:

Yeah. 

Sue Roberts:

But I can't, it's not okay for me. So, but then it hit me last night and this morning that that was completely fine. It was okay. And I relaxed completely until I did a stupid thing and I looked back at training videos that we'd been doing in the last couple of weeks and shot my confidence. So I showed up a little bit stressed, but I was just trying to prepare, but you know, sometimes it's not the greatest idea to do that.

Jeremy Lesniak:

Hi. 

Sue Roberts:

Hi. How are you? 

Jeremy Lesniak:

I'm good. How are you? 

Sue Roberts:

I'm good. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

How do you feel now? Do you feel different? Has the world completely changed?

Sue Roberts:

The world is a lot less stressful this week. I do actually, you know, all joking aside, I'll joke about it later, but it, uh, oh, there is a huge sense of relief that the exam is over. But there's something I wasn't expecting, and that is just a really nice feeling of freedom.

Jeremy Lesniak:

Say more. 

Sue Roberts:

There's a long time before I have to have to do another grade like this. Anything else that I do now is by choice and all the time that was taken up by the mental space that was being taken up by thinking about this and worrying about this, and practicing about this has all this now gone. It's done. And I can now, I feel like I could before obviously, I could, but I feel like I now have a bit of space again to go back to doing weapons and exploring some different things that I was doing before, but now there's a little bit more space around that again. So it's just, I caught myself last night in class, or the night before, getting frustrated with myself that I couldn't get something and I suddenly go, oh my god. I have time. I have time again. Stop. Stop this. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

Wait, wait. You mean a black belt doesn't know everything? You didn't put that on and suddenly everything changed? It got easier.

Sue Roberts:

It did. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

And there was some odd osmosis occurring? 

Sue Roberts:

Yeah. I'm not being truthful with you. I mean, what happened was I got the black belt handbook and it told me to not mention that the miracle would happen. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

Alright. We'll have to edit this part out then. 

Sue Roberts:

We'll have to edit this part out. The miracle did happen. I put on the black belt and I was enlightened. I was enlightened by the secret meaning of every single kata. Yeah. Yeah. It happened. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

If only, right? If only. So you said something and I wanna poke at that for a second. 

Sue Roberts:

Okay. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

You feel like you have some freedom back which obviously, you had the freedom before, right? You could have not done this. 

Sue Roberts:

Oh, yeah. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

It was a choice. We know it was a choice. 

Sue Roberts:

Yes. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

And so it being that big and having that much weight on you before and that weight being gone begs a rather important question. Is it worth it? 

Sue Roberts:

Yeah, I think it is.

Jeremy Lesniak:

Why?

Sue Roberts:

I think it is. Because I think it's good to go through things sometimes, even if you don't want to, even if you don't need to. It, as you say, it is a choice and the choice is to not do it. You certainly don't have to do it. People would ask why. But I don't think there'd be any particular judgment around that. But I think it is good to put yourself through things that are hard sometimes. And choose to go through that barrier. And because what you get to the other other side is the knowledge that you tried. You tried really hard and you went through, and the work that you put through on the other side, I think I mentioned before that there's this kind of accelerated learning that you go through, this focused revision of everything that you know. And I think that's kind of good for you. And it's good to then if you don't have that, also, if you don't sometimes have the pressure of going through something, then you don't necessarily appreciate the space that arrives on the other side. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

Yeah.

Sue Roberts:

You know, so I think it's good in life generally to go through difficult things. Much as I whine and complain and go on and don't wanna do it and generally whinge about things and, you know, be complete worse, which I do a lot. And everyone feels that stress. Everyone feels the stress, everyone feels the struggle. But I'm usually glad after I've done things. And there's some knowledge beforehand that I will be glad to have done it. And that's one of the things that kind of pulls you through.

Jeremy Lesniak:

One of the things I find interesting about what a black belt means, because it's not universal, it's different. Not only in every style, every system, but every school, it's always a little bit different. And so that's why when people get bent outta shape about, you know, time it takes or anything, they're just because the color is the same doesn't mean they're equivalent.

Sue Roberts:

Yeah. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

But one thing that is almost universal is what you're talking about there, that you went through something really challenging. 

Sue Roberts:

Yeah. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

That you knew it was going to be really challenging. You didn't know exactly what it might be, but you knew it required a lot of preparation. And I think it's those two elements that become so important. It's the preparation because you put in so much time because this meant so much to you. And now on the other side of that really challenging thing, you obviously met that challenge. And it's everything prior to the test, not just the preparation for the test, but every class you've ever done, every thought you've ever had, every punch you've ever thrown, leading up to it as the investment into what that belt means.

Sue Roberts:

Yeah. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

And it's celebrated and tested and codified into who you are through that test. I tested at 16. I still think about that event. It is still a road sign for my life. I still reflect back on it and say I did that. I can do this. I did these difficult, challenging, overwhelming things that frankly some of them no one knows about except the people who were there.

Sue Roberts:

Yeah. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

And I can look at what I'm doing now, whether it's martial arts or not and say I've got this. And whether it's expressed as such or not, I think that's where the true value of a black belt comes in.

Sue Roberts:

Yes. Yeah. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

Was the test as difficult as you expected? More difficult? Less difficult? 

Sue Roberts:

I really hesitate to say this, but it was less difficult than I thought it was gonna be. And I really hesitate to say that. I wanna say it was the most brutal experience of my whole life, but it wasn't, it was, they included the class in the first half. So there was, you know, cause everyone was really tense, but, you know, we, it was run kind of as a class. And they were coming around with their clipboards and everything. They were watching everything they did, but there was an element of, okay, yeah, we know this feels familiar, you know, working out with our partners on the pads. And then they're coming over and taking over the pads and they're, you know, coming to sort things out. Look at what they wanna learn. Even you know, once or twice actually throwing the shots themselves so they could give you a test on holding the pads. You know, so this, that all felt kind of familiar and stuff that we'd done before. I was really nervous about the kata, I was really nervous about the sparring, the hugest bits of it.

Jeremy Lesniak:

I remember that. 

Sue Roberts:

Yeah. Yeah. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

How did that go? 

Sue Roberts:

The kata? That was really funny how that went because I'd practiced kanku dai a lot to make sure, and there were two places that I normally got stuck. And I always forgot the first kiai always, every time. And I think what happened was I was so astounded that I remembered the first kiai that I instantly dried in two totally different places and just ground to a halt.

Jeremy Lesniak:

I'm laughing cause I know exactly what you're talking about. Oh my god! I got that part, huh? Wait, that's not the end. What am I supposed to do now? Shoot. 

Sue Roberts:

Yes. Yeah, so that was, so I stood there and kanku dai’s are reasonably long cast and I don't do it massively fast. And there were two other people doing their or one other person doing their katar at the same time. I can't even remember now and they were done. So the whole room was watching me stand there going, what's the next move? But the next move did come and I just, I start, I almost started giggling at one point. I stood there, the whole room watching me, hands in the air daisy in the side of the room going, this is ridiculous. I nearly started laughing right there. Yes. It's just like, I can't believe this has happened to me. But I did remember it and I did finish it and they were, you know, they were good. They just waited it out for me to finish. They knew that I knew it. So, you know, nothing bad happened. I did know it. And Shodan was the one that came up for the hands and then I had to do bassai dai as well and that was fine. I knew that one. That was in there. So that was great. Like went through that and they'd written down, I think they had something like eight rounds of sparring put in. So two of all, two minutes of two times, two minutes of all-in two grappling. Same for grappling, same for striking, same for groundwork. And I thought that that would be, you know, I'd been training for that. I'd been going out for bike rides. I'd started running again, even though I hate running. Because I knew I was gonna be really, really hard. But ultimately we started off with two rounds of all-in, because what they wanted again was to see, they wanted to see what you got. They wanted to see if you could then, and they said at the beginning, we wanna see a mixture, try and put everything into it. So for some of us, we did lots of two minutes of all-in, and I saw what they needed so we didn't need to go further. So it's like, oh my god, the relief. The relief at that moment. It's like, no, we've seen what you've seen what you've got. It's all good. Yeah. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

Yeah. Awesome. 

Sue Roberts:

It's huge. Huge. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

Awesome. 

Sue Roberts:

It's really, really awesome. So, yeah, that was it. And then it was just like, oh my god, just eat sweets now and... 

Jeremy Lesniak:

What was your anxiety level like going in? Most people, like, you know, you bow in and you're like, I've got this, I've got this and it seems like it gets away from them pretty quickly. And then the spikes, and then you realize you can't hang out there and it starts to come down a little bit. But from talking to people, there's a point where they go, you know what? I'm going to be okay. That they recognize somewhere in there, they're going to be okay. And I think we talked about this last time. 

Sue Roberts:

Yeah.

Jeremy Lesniak:

You know, we talked about specifically that you were concerned about your forms and your sparring. But this is a little bit different version of the question. What was that point where you said, I've got this? 

Sue Roberts:

Starting the class with my sparring partner, with my partner doing pads. That was the first thing we had, throwing combinations on the pads. And I looked at her and smiled and I said, oh, this is gonna be okay, isn't it? We're gonna, we'll get through this, won't we? And she said, yeah, we'll get through this. I was like, okay. So it spiked. Just when I got confused about whether we were changing partners or not, because I find that a little distressing when I'm not entirely sure what's gonna happen, sudden panic that I've just derailed everything, you know? But I think it's normal in that situation to be a little bit panicky. It spiked, right. I had no trouble with demonstrating takedown. Demonstrating, I'm fine with that. I practiced. I knew what I was doing. I knew I understood what I was doing with the submissions, the takedowns, and the escapes. I was confident with that. I was confident with my Bunkai and explaining it. 

That was all good. So it spiked again for the kata, big time. That was hot hammering, you know, step out onto the mat thinking oh my god. And absolutely for the sparring as well. I was nervous there.

Jeremy Lesniak:

Sure. 

Sue Roberts:

Yeah. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

I think it was last time you were on, I asked you, what would you tell future you. So, let's do the opposite. Let's go back to the day that you were told you were going to test. What would you like to tell that you, now that you've been through this experience? 

Sue Roberts:

Practice earlier. I got so freaked out by the pressure of everything, by the enormity in my head that I kind of froze for a couple of weeks and I just went into panic. And I wish that I could have gone back and told myself to chill and go through the syllabus a lot quicker and maybe iron out some of the stuff that I was worried about a lot sooner. That would have been sensible. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

Do you think that would've changed your anxiety going into it? 

Sue Roberts:

It might not have changed my anxiety actually going into it, but it might have changed my anxiety in the month going up to it. I might have felt more chill if I'd have addressed, if I'd have realized, I think that sometimes you get very nervous about something and it builds up in your head. And my experience can be that I almost stop. And I disengage from what I'm thinking and feeling because it just feels too much. And I know it's, you know, it's just a black belt grading. It sounds ridiculous to be that tense about it, but even so, it's still there. And for me, that would've been more helpful be to really understand that I was going into panic then and actually trying to address it much, much quicker and actually get that syllabus out rather than going I can't look at it. I can't look at that. It's too scary, which is ridiculous, but deal with it a lot quicker. It's usually good advice for me anyway. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

Now, of course, we'll have people watching and listening to this that have been through a black belt testing, but others who haven't. And so one of my hopes as we put this together was that it might offer something for them. You know, the idea that they're not the only person to have had the feelings that they're likely to have.

Sue Roberts:

Yes. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

But what might you say to those people? 

Sue Roberts:

I would say don't worry about being nervous. It's expected. It's expected. Everyone has been through this, everyone who's testing you has been through this, and they expect you to be nervous, and they want you to be a bit nervous, but they don't want you to be so nervous you can't function because that doesn't serve anybody. But I think actually, if you're in an organization where they want you to be so terrified, you can't function, I'd consider whether you're in a good organization to be fair. It's supposed to be hard, but if they've invited you to grade and it's not just going on a calendar of like every three months kind of thing. If they've been invited to grade, then they know that you are ready for that. And they want you to succeed. They want you to move on to the next level because the grading in my mind, it's just a checkpoint. It's just saying, okay, we're just formalizing this. You know this material you've already moving through. You are ready for the next level. You know, it's just saying you're ready to learn additional material, so you're gonna be nervous and that's all right. But also, if it's what you want, just go for it. If, seriously, just go for it. Because I think so many people consider that a black belt. And I do this all the time, and I know I said it to you that a black belt looks a certain way, it sounds a certain way, is a certain age.

Jeremy Lesniak:

Yeah. 

Sue Roberts:

You know, it is rubbish. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

I think we form that idea of what a black belt is. 

Sue Roberts:

Yeah. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

The first time we experience one and they are so much further than we are. But we normalize our own actions, you know, all that hard work and that very small incremental progress that is quite real because it doesn't happen in these big leaps and bounds. We continue to look at tho that that gap, that delta between where we were and where black belts are and we miss the fact that we're moving closer. 

Sue Roberts:

Yes. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

So we keep saying, well, you know, they were so far ahead of me, they're so far ahead of me now when no, you've caught up to some degree.

Sue Roberts:

Yeah. And it's also as if black belt is the only goal, it's really not. It's really… 

Jeremy Lesniak:

Hopefully not. 

Really not, you know, I don't subscribe to that at all that black belt should be the only goal. Because that feeling of freedom that I've got right now is simply about there being space now for me to not have to worry about another grading for a little while. That's it. That's all it is. I had that freedom before, and I was doing this like a year ago. I wasn't even considering grading. It wasn't even on my horizon. I wasn't interested in looking for my black belt. That fun, that freedom, that experimentation of just doing what you wanna do, finding out different styles, cross-training, putting yourself through stuff, working hard finally, finally, finally figuring out why you're getting a takedown wrong and then doing it right. That's, for me, that's the delight. That's where the fun is. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

So, what's gonna change now? Is anything gonna change in what or how you train? 

Sue Roberts:

No, no. I'll go back to doing what I'm doing. I'll go back to some weapons training. I'll go back to, I hopefully have some time to take up a little bit of jujitsu. Hopefully, I'll have time for this kind of stuff again. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

Cool. 

Sue Roberts:

Not that all of my time was taken up with preparation for the grading, but… 

Jeremy Lesniak:

Enough of it. 

Sue Roberts:

There'll be some… 

Jeremy Lesniak:

Yeah. 

Sue Roberts:

Maybe some space for a little bit more in there. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

Yeah. 

Sue Roberts:

But I love it when the pressure of something is finished because the delight that I get from, oh, the space again, I can just do this for kicks, literally for kicks again. That's so nice. And it feels a bit like being just like back at the beginning again. You know, there's a little bit of space to explore now.

Jeremy Lesniak:

I wanna give an absolute huge shout-out and thank you to Sue Roberts for her generosity with her time and her openness about her journey. When we set out to do this, it was something Andrew and I had a long conversation, several conversations about because we believed that this story would be incredibly relatable and I think it comes through that way. Whether you've been training for 6 months or 60 years, you likely see some of yourself in Sue. I think the world of her, and I'm just so proud of her trust in us. I guess that's the best way to put it. The fact that what we've put together is so trustworthy that she was willing to share and to the others involved in her process and their willingness to share. Thank you. So to the audience also, thank you and I hope you enjoyed this.