Episode 758 - Sensei Les Bubka
Sensei Les Bubka is a Martial Arts practitioner, instructor, and Mental Health advocate based in the United Kingdom.
Martial Arts is like money, it amplifies your character. If you’re rich and a bad person, you’re just a powerful bad person. The same in the dojo, you give a bad person more power, he will just turn into a powerful bad person… I would like to believe that Martial Arts make better people, but the truth is, good instructors produce good people.
Sensei Les Bubka - Episode 758
Going out and socializing with other people is a normal part of everyday living but for Sensei Les Bubka, it was the other way around. Sensei Bubka had anxiety growing up and when his friend invited him to join a dojo, he stayed. Eventually, Sensei Bubka would realize something that would change his life forever.
Sensei Les Bubka has been promoting the benefits of Karate for health, both physical and mental, and working with charities, groups, and individuals using Karate as a tool for improvement.
In this episode, Sensei Les Bubka shares his journey to Martial Arts and how it’s making a positive impact on Mental Health. Listen to learn more!
Show notes
Find out more about Sensei Les Bubka and his offerings on his website at LesBubka.co.uk
Show Transcript
You can read the transcript below.
Jeremy Lesniak:
What's happening, everybody? Thanks for coming by. This is whistlekick martial arts radio episode 758, with today's guest Sensei Les Bubka. I'm Jeremy Lesniak, I'm your host here for the show and the founder of whistlekick, which I founded because I love traditional martial arts and traditional martial artists. Probably like, if you want to see all the things that we're doing to support your martial arts lifestyle, go to whistlekick.com, our digital hub, it's the center point for all the things that we're working on. And one of the things we've got there. It's a store and we sell stuff. We've got to do it because we give you free podcasts. So we got to do some things to cover the bills. And if you are going to use the code, PODCAST15. it rewards you loyal listeners and saves you 15% on the stuff that we've got over there.
Martial arts radio is too big to contain on whistlekick.com. So we gave it its website, whistle kickmartialartsradio.com show comes out twice a week, and the goal of the show and really of whistlekick overall, it's under the heading of connecting, educate, and entertain traditional martial artists throughout the world. And if you want to support that work, there are so many things you could do, you could make a purchase, you could share an episode, or join our Patreon patreon.com/whistlekick, a place to go for that. You can support us monthly with as little as $2. And it goes up from there. We've got everything from free books, free masterminds, free sweatshirts, t-shirts, and stickers, and there's just there's so much there, that you will rarely find people leaving the Patreon. It's all about value. Everything we do is about delivering overwhelming value. And Patreon is a great example of that.
Now, if you want to go further if you're already part of Patreon, and by the way, thank you to all of you Patreon contributors. You can check out the family page whistlekick.com/family, I update that weekly. And it's not just a bunch of interesting stuff. It's all the things you can do to help. But it's also other stuff to again, deliver value. my conversation with Les today is about martial arts, but it's also about life. It's about health. And it's about a personal journey of his that I relate to. And I suspect many of you also will relate. Instead of me telling you what you're about to hear. I'd rather just let you listen. Here we go. Les, welcome to whistlekick martial arts radio.
Les Bubka:
Welcome, Jeremy. Thank you for having me.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Absolutely. Thanks for coming on, and for your willingness to do this. And looking forward to talking to you, the audience a lot, a lot of you know that, you know, we asked the guests to fill out a form which helps guide, just kind of my pre-show thoughts. And there's a subject that I know, we're gonna get into this kind of close to my heart both personally, for my own purposes, and because of some friends.
So I'm looking forward to getting there. And if you think that I'm going to leave the foreshadowing, they're not telling you what we're going to talk about. You're absolutely right, because that's what I do, and it drives some people nuts in it. I find it enjoyable. So, thanks. We tend to start in a pretty predictable way. And I think that that's okay. And that way is your beginning. So if we were to imagine the beginning of a TV show or a movie about your time as a martial artist, what would those opening scenes look like?
Les Bubka:
For the stress? Fear and learning by myself and persevering, learning to overcome the problems, and enjoying it.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Wow. Why did you start training?
Les Bubka:
This kind of started training twice when I was 14, now much less about 10 years old. We all join in karate club in high school, which was the Ohyama Karate by Shiroyama with the policy instructors. I think I enjoyed it. I don't remember much of it. I don't remember that much from my childhood, which gonna be making more sense later I think. And then, I had the shoulder injury, kind of stopped training, and then have a long long long break. And then when I was 17, my friends dragged me to another Dojo as well offshoot of Kyokushin and in their state, so it was kind of enforced on me because I didn't want to do it, and I didn't want to go anywhere.
Jeremy Lesniak:
You didn't want to do it at 17 or 10?
Les Bubka:
At 17, I suffered from huge anxiety, so going out and interacting with people, doing groceries, shopping, and stuff, like that was a huge struggle for me. And one of my friends said, Why don't you have to do something? Let's go and have a look. And I said, yes. Okay. As kind of getting rid of him, we do it
Jeremy Lesniak:
Someday.
Les Bubka:
Someday in the future. But now Monday, he came in and knocked on my door. I said, Ah, you said you promised. And I always kept my promises. So okay, let's go on. We went there, and I never left.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Okay, so you're opening the door to this part of the conversation. So you had some significant anxiety. Over the last couple of years, because of the openness of some guests on the show have shared a bit that I also deal with some anxiety, we've had several guests who have talked about their anxiety. It sounds like what you're talking about the way you're kind of describing how it was for you at 17 was rather extreme, severe.
Les Bubka:
I would. I learned about it later on, when I started working with a mental health charity because I thought it is quite normal that everybody's like that and stuff. But it was kind of building on from very early childhood. So I can remember that stage of 10 years, 12 years earlier. So that's partly to the Polish culture of the time. So we've been under communism. So all the trade was done via alcohol. So my dad was drinking since he was 14. So he was an alcoholic, and he passed away because of alcoholic or alcoholism. And then they may be passed from his parents and stuff like that he wasn't a very caring person. You have another friend, that kind of person who, says good things behind your back, but never in your face. So we never had my brother that you're good, you're doing great. It was always pointing out bad things. And I think that's when it started, then we've been robbed.
So I let the robber into the house because he convinced me that it was a friend of my dad. So that kind of deteriorate deteriorated my relationship with my dad. And it kind of sparked out that I didn't want to be in school, I was avoiding school as much as I can. I was forging my parents’ signatures that we got sick and stuff like that, and kind of didn't want to be with friends.
plus, at 16 years old, I don't really know why I lost half of my teeth. And they couldn't fit the dentures in because I was still growing, my jaw was growing. So I imagined by 16 years old, you tried to shut up gas and stuff like that by omission 40. So it was I think, it was just difficult for my brain to process. And I have always been kind of very low on self-esteem. So that's the reason why I didn't want to go
Jeremy Lesniak:
It’s a lot.
Les Bubka:
To live with people, girls, and stuff but I'm glad that my friend convinced me, and then doing karate changed my view. And I learned that people really don't care. Everybody's starting their own movie and everybody else is in the background. The second category is actors and people care.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Let's talk about those early days for you in that second step into martial arts for a couple of reasons. One, I want to hear more of your story. But also, there are plenty of people listening to this episode who have not experienced anxiety, but maybe they teach and for them to have a better understanding of what it's like for someone on their first day. I say this all the time. Whether your personal story is your first day of martial arts training or stepping into new schools, even if you've been training for 30 years is scary. You don't know what you've got, you don't know who you're going to train with. You don't fully understand what's happening here. And the more compassionate the instructor can be in welcoming you the easier time it is for everyone. So you talked about your friend, you know, doing all that twisting your arm it sounds like to get you to go shows up on Monday and says get in the car or however you're getting there, get on the bus and you're going. Do you remember what it felt like as you traveled from your home to this dojo?
Les Bubka:
He was like I had a sinking hole in my stomach a try to pull me and I was looking for opportunities that something happened that I can twist my way out of it. Say you know all the faults I can say and another way where I've got a call for what I do something, maybe I fell over broke my nose. So it was kind of raised, but in a way, I wanted to be part of the group I wanted to be accepted. So it was like an internal battle of Yeah, let's do it and I promise right promises was any still very important for me if I promise something, I'm trying to do it.
So we went but that walk up the steps, we actually walked because like 200 meters away from my house was called something called House of Culture, had a small cinema and different groups, and there was a martial art in their character. So we walked in there, and you walked in the steps, and you can see people gathering, and immediately you think that you're in the spotlight.
So everybody was watching you, right? Every time they laughed, they must not be laughing at me, there's no other way. Because I'm the center of attention. That's kind of, I think anxiety does to some people, at least, to me, that if you feel that you are in the spotlight, and everybody's talking about you, so you can center your attention. But the negative way, it spins it is that in our or they must be laughing at me because I don't have teeth and walk funny, very small guy. So that was that and all training, just watching the first trend, you know what's going on, there's a huge people that are black bears, then, it was combat karate, so 7890, Everybody's going full contact. And it's a scary place to be but physical activity is always my escape for me. So I started the gym bit earlier. And we've done the old fashion warm-up that you have to survive the 45 minutes of warm-up push-ups and stuff like that. So really hardcore, but that completely took my mind away. Share was kind of like a safe haven in that physical workout. So I found that I can escape at least for that 45 minutes and then get my beatings and that's kind of taking my mind away from everything else was going on - school parents, whatever. So, for me, it was like a safe house.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I'm sure on day one there were times when you said I like this, but probably not enough without me. I'm guessing that your friend had to continue to prompt you for a little while to go. Do you remember when that changed when he no longer needed to drag you to karate?
Les Bubka:
I do remember because if I fall, I'm gonna die just a couple of days before. So, we had a display. And one of my teachers said you're gonna help us with the display, for what? I'm not going anywhere. I'm not doing it. But that was in my head. I said, yes. okay, I do it. So we went for a display and I had a small roll of Katas being taught so few movements and when we done that I went on the stage panicking, everybody's gonna notice my mistakes. But when I started doing Kata. I had like a tunnel vision suddenly everybody disappeared, how he's gonna compete and stuff like that you worry but you step in and then everything blurs, and just it's you and I don't feel mistakes are fought you know? I'm so rubbish and stuff like that. But my friends nobody noticed my Sensei, he said nobody noticed it. I'm perfect, everybody's clapping. And I thought I like the guy. He is supportive. The whole team was behind me. Nobody was pointing out my mistakes laughing and leaving me out. Yes, I want to be here because I've got that support.
Jeremy Lesniak:
That support that maybe you would have benefited from having earlier?
Les Bubka:
Definitely.
Jeremy Lesniak:
What next? You're starting to find your way. It's no longer something that you have to be told to do or encouraged to do. You're encouraging yourself. And obviously, you kept going. What did that look like?
Les Bubka:
Total obsession. Nothing matters, this school doesn't matter as any other activities and 100% in training five days a week, eight hours a day, at least.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Eight hours a day?
Les Bubka:
Yeah, in my head. Don't sit there sitting in school reading a book instead of reading a book I see the movements and fighting going on. All the karate books I could get him hands-on DVDs videos at the time. I am totally submerged, becoming Uchidesi for my teacher. I don't mean so he wanted by I was pastoring. This is leaving, constantly calling him with questions and stuff like that it was a total obsession with karate, which I'm not sure was that beneficial, probably I could do better in life. What if I pay attention in school and don't fail everything? But then that was my escape. And that's what made me happy. So in a way, I don't regret it, because I think I'm good at Karate. And now I am doing the undoing. Okay, you've been using good indeed. That's great. Sorry, my son. Okay. That's great. Yep, please. Yes, go on. Go away. Thank you.
So I was. I could do better if I focus on education instead of doing martial arts. But then probably I wouldn't write the book about my story, because I would be doing something else completely.
And probably I would have been in the UK, but I'll be still in Poland because of the lack of options there. And I can see that in the UK started working here at my school, and started my business and working with people with mental health. And it just rolls right. It was a long process, but I made that I can do what I love as my job.
Jeremy Lesniak:
We've had many authors on the show, and I've written a few books myself. For me, the most interesting part about any book is the time leading up to before writing it. Whatever it is, that brings your idea about so strongly that you have to do it. Because anybody who's written a book knows, it is a difficult experience. It takes forever, and almost no books pay off very few books. Does the author look at it and say, that was worth my time, economically, financially, right? Like it takes so much time. What was the story leading up to you writing your book?
Les Bubka:
We decided that I'm going to have an expanded family. So the first child was on the way and I was thinking, about what mistakes might not be made so I don't want to do it. So I started writing notes and a few of my friends read them. And then they say, Well, why didn't you just write a book? And I was writing about what helped me and sports so we decided that our children will have to do a lot of sports because you got to support the community and stuff like that. And then slowly, it started becoming like a memoir. And then people say, oh, it's really good. We're gonna help you edit it because my English isn't, especially written English is not best. My wife is English, and she can correct stuff, but a few people helped. And it was many for me to see what was wrong with my life so I don't make the same mistakes for my son. And from that one thing, I'm really surprised at how many people have similar experiences, and how many people found it helpful and conducted me after that saying, thank you for writing this. And he's a very honest book about martial arts. And, people love him so
Jeremy Lesniak:
Now, of course, you started writing the book for [0:18:38-0:18:39] even a book for yourself. And other people found value in it. What did writing the book do for you?
Les Bubka:
It gave me [0:18:50-0:18:53], I can't pronounce it. Like a clean, and self-enlightenment or [0:18:58-0:18:59].
Jeremy Lesniak:
Catharsis.
Les Bubka:
Sorry, my pronunciation is.
Jeremy Lesniak:
It is okay.
Les Bubka:
Before publishing the book, I had already a test print and it was great, but I was very hesitant to publish it. Because it's very private. I'm going through I'm opening up about every single thing I remember. So it's kind of should I say that to people today. Do they want to know or is everybody's gonna hate it? Everybody thinks I'm a loser. And again, you think that anxiety you fought within you won it, but it takes you by surprise, right? It starts creeping in that negative thoughts in there and by thought, the one thing that karate teaches me is to take challenges. face on, right? So I have to do it. Nobody's gonna like it. Nobody's gonna know about it, right? Amazon is great. If you're not successful, nobody knows. So, I force myself to publish it. And from the group of martial artists actually, a lot of people bought it and had fantastic reviews saying well, brave, brave for you to go in are so open about your experiences. And many people said they've got similar stories. And so I was overwhelmed with the acceptance. And in like, the stone side of myself, I hardly know, everybody knows now. So I don't have to hide anything I can be myself.
Jeremy Lesniak:
There's something I'm finding interesting about that response to writing this book, versus the way you felt at 17, going to the dojo the first time is fear that everyone's watching you, and they're going to criticize you, they're going to laugh at you versus after the book. Everyone is watching you, but they are relating to you. And they're thankful that you were willing to be watched. There's something beautiful in that, for me,
Les Bubka:
I think this is the benefit of karate. And that's what I'm basing all my programs on because if you look at karate, and the grades you are, have a control failure. So you're going for the grades, you come into the dojo, you know nothing, and you're gonna be failing in whatever you're doing until you master it. And then stages of going forms, so you got a yellow belt, green belt, brown belt, black belt, that's for our style. And then you can look retrospectively and say, wow, I've overcome so many obstacles. And I think that the habit of overcoming things is translating as well to your private life.
You start thinking about yourself, Oh, this is the failure, it's the end of. You start thinking this is just another obstacle that I need to overcome. So my decision within martial arts was to head-on collision. So if something is tough for me, I just go and do it. And repetition gets easier and easier and easier. And I decided the same thing with a book, right? If I don't do it, I won't do it now, I won't overcome it. It's always gonna be bugging me. So I think the character builds me up to just have the challenge and try, despite I'm afraid of it.
Jeremy Lesniak:
When you think about your relationship with martial arts, now, it's a little bit different, isn't it? It started, it was something that you want to distance from, then you want it as little distance as possible. But it sounds now like it is I'm gonna use the word healthy, but I don't think it's the best word. What I'm hearing is, early on you martial arts was something that you looked up to you aspire to. And now it's something that is in partnership with you. So what you're talking about some of these things that you're doing? If it is your support structure?
Les Bubka:
I think the balance would be the best thing.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Balance.
Les Bubka:
So as I was obsessed with martial arts, I learned that there are other things in life and you cannot do them, we all have a band up, right? If I put 100% into that, which I used to do, you know, everything was under the control of karate is getting a bit unhealthy. Because you're losing other things in life that are important, like family, friends, and stuff like that. And you need that variety, to have a break from even the things you love, right? If you're constantly doing karate, your progression is not constant, we all know that we get ups and downs. So like suicidal. So I think to make sure that if it breaks from karate, and they do all this stuff, so recently, I sent him [0:24:14-0:24:15]. But having two kids is not so much time on martial arts, I have to find they're less but more quality, I would say. So, I think you're right. I bounced off a bit and found the balance between having a happy family life and happy training time.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Right. Now, you mentioned and I know from your notes that, this exploration of martial arts and anxiety mental health is something you're very passionate about and something you are working on. When could you talk about that?
Les Bubka:
So I've worked with a few organizations plus our council on a local council, providing sessions for people with severe mental health, and disabilities, and several free programs running. And it finally started all by I didn't mean to work with people with mental health. I went to work with people with alcoholism. My father, my dad was suffering from that. I don't drink so maybe I can help some kids get their dads and moms from alcohol and being addicted to martial arts, let's say.
I went to the charity and they said sorry, we don't have anything like that. But there is a mental health charity, maybe they want it. So when they wanted it, the guys tried it that was eight years ago and we've got the running group from there started with three people. Now it's 14 people.
Jeremy Lesniak:
That’s great
Les Bubka:
That's why it's kind of a closed group so it's only for the clients. So you have to be referred to the organization and they're referring to our class. But people loving it, on the last day say there is nothing more stressful than releasing them and smashing the pads.
Jeremy Lesniak:
It's true.
Les Bubka:
Oh yeah, there's something magical in it when you can actually hit something really hard and let that stress out plus, we've got people with different ranges of disabilities, from deafness to ms. anger issues, menopausal, and stuff like that. So we have fully inclusive clubs. So everybody's welcome, plus, we're doing our not-so-young club where we use karate as a meditation vehicle, and relaxation, so something like that. And we're using the karate Katas.
Jeremy Lesniak:
It's great. When you're teaching folks from a mental health perspective, folks who have been referred in for some mental health challenge, what do you do differently versus say, let's call it a normal, a standard class that someone might be used to?
Les Bubka:
So it is very personal in a way because not everybody's got the same issues, right? So you have all the time to check what we can do so I don't do anything contact-wise, except cuts. Just because some people can't stand touch. Some movements are too dangerous because they don't have so much focus on this, my group doesn't have so much focus. And the little things can set them out that they have to go out and have a break, right?
And you never know was that is. Some people suffer, and exactly like me, some people have depression, some schizophrenia and you just don't know. So it's all kind of on the field and a day. So if I see that people by now are overwhelmed by some activity, I aim to change it. So our standard is a warm-up, a shadowboxing of all the techniques combinations, pad work, and Kata so that's our standout. And we've got we kind of try to find different ways to entertain people, right? Everybody likes to laugh so I put a lot of humor, mainly taking care of myself. So there is no kind of possibility that I'm going to be laughing at somebody else. It's always in me doing mistakes, me doing something, and stuff like that.
as long as we're doing completely non-judgmental so I don't judge people. I think the most difficult part was on the first session to deal with a conversation because you're coming in and we are conditioned. And somebody asks you, how are you? Oh, very well, it's all great. And you know, I was that kind of guy where everything's always alright, and you coming in?
Jeremy Lesniak:
And even if it is.
Les Bubka:
Exactly, and the guys told me that they are open about the problem. So I'm going in there happy as Larry saying, Oh, how was your day? Oh, he was very bad. I don't feel great. I'm suicidal to the end. You got to kind of stop in their tracks. And where do they go now? What do I say? I can't say all gonna be great because he might not be.
So it took me a long time to just shut my mouth and listen, right? They don't need me telling anything back. You just listen so I can try to kind of listen, observe people and try to figure out how you've navigated the best way. But another thing that I learned that works the best for my classes is to simply ask, they don't have a problem with telling you what's the problem and so I was asking, Okay, well we can do it today for 15 minutes on it. That's okay with everybody.
And some people say yes, other people say no, that's too much. So we organized, this one gonna be doing pad work, let's do the Kata here. So I pay attention to how you doing Katas, or something else, or just some people come to sit down and just watch, right? So it's very individual and every session is kind of different needs. So it takes quite a bit of brainpower to figure out what we're gonna do today.
Jeremy Lesniak:
But I can see there's a smile as you're talking about it in a way that you haven't been smiling the rest of our conversation. So am I correct that this is one of your favorite parts of your day?
Les Bubka:
It is. And it's super rewarding. As I say, I'm working with people for seven years, some of them and seeing that progression from a zero to a green. But now,
Jeremy Lesniak:
Do you do rank?
Les Bubka:
Sometime though, because some of the people from there decided to join my regular club. So on the mental health project, I don't do ranks.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Okay
Les Bubka:
As such, if somebody wants to weigh in on all my clubs, I do it two ways. Either you go classical, and you want to do all the hoops and loops of karate, oh, you just come and train. I don't have. Everybody wants to fit in and find their way. But with mental health, I never know when they're going to cancel it. The strange thing is that, for example, a big disappointment for me was during the lockdown, when they just simply pull the plug out. And from day one to day two, or sorry, you don't have classes, they come back to me after. But it's unpredictable and actually, people never express expressed.
They want grit. So we don't have a [0:31:47-0:31:48] and stuff like that we just train and play, covering, just for enjoyment. For all my classes, we don't focus on the grade as the sight outcome of training, that make sense?
Jeremy Lesniak:
It does.
Les Bubka:
But it is my favorite part of the day. And I like challenges. And seeing those guys growing, and some people coming back in, I cannot take credit for it, I hope it helps coming back and to say wow, I've got a job, I was confident and stuff like that, after five years of training. And they all said that it is helping them so it must be something in it. I'm just hoping to have a connection with the university, which we're going to do a proper study on it. So I have some evidence that is held because, at the moment, these are anecdotal. It's now I'm just working on my new book, we're going to be interviews with the people who train with me. And trying to give evidence as to how it helped them with given conditions. So there'll be different conditions and how they perceive the benefits of karate. So still anecdotal but with more research done into it, right?
Jeremy Lesniak:
Well, anecdotal, maybe in a scientific community, but anyone I suspect who is working day in and day out with these folks, especially the ones that knew them before you started teaching them karate. And now, I'm sure they all can see the difference.
Les Bubka:
They speak freely about it. So that makes me even more happy.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I've talked to folks who have run, let's call them non-standard martial arts programs over the years. And what I've noticed is, all of them take lessons, of course, most of what you're teaching and how your teaching starts in a conventional way, and you bring it to this other population and adjust as needed. You talked about that. But I know it also goes back the other way. What are some of the things that have come from teaching these? What did you call them for not so young, and those who have mental health that you've incorporated, or at least considered in a more conventional martial arts setting?
Les Bubka:
Inclusion and vulnerability, so I know how stressful it is to go into the dojo, especially for women, right? Because the other thing we try to change is that it's a male-dominated environment. So you're coming in and you got lots of men and people create groups naturally. And when you have a new person, you don't know who to talk to, right? So I am always upfront and welcoming and saying, don't worry, I know it's stressful. I've been there, I've done I've got anxiety. So people see me as being allowed to be vulnerable. They're getting calm, and confident. And as well, I make sure my guys are well-trained in welcoming people.
There is no such thing as people disperse. If a new person comes in when everybody goes and introduces themselves, I don't need to chase them. It naturally happens, because they're copying me, right? And we are non-judgmental, at least, I cannot say for other people. I am non-judgmental about the culture in a club is that nobody's judging anybody, right? We all have baggage, and we all have problems. And there's well, I think the biggest skill is the observation skills. So I can pick up problems instantly. And funny enough, being in teaching in a broad with my good friend who doesn't have that skill, and we've been talking, I said, this person's got a problem, there's an argument between those two. And something is going on there. And how do you see that island now, I just learned to observe people and see picking up the stress and distress and trying to go and kind of displace it via my aura, my personality. And most times I'm successful, he doesn't work all the time, because sometimes people are so stressed that he just can't win.
And I think that's the teaching style really focused on individual and inclusion, right? So it makes sure that everybody's involved, even if they cannot do it. They are in some form involved. And maybe I describe a situation from our clubs, so it's going to be more clear what I mean
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yes, please.
Les Bubka:
So I've got a friend who is deaf, [0:36:30-0:36:31]. She cannot spare because she got the cognitive implants, no punches in the head, and you're going to have back problems. So she didn't want to spy on adults. So instead of sitting on the side, and watching, we gave her a timer, plus a camera, so she was our timer, and recording what we were doing. And she was over the moon. So I'm a part of it, I'm loving it, I can give you feedback, I tell you where to stop. If I want to cheat, I keep the club longer, awesome stuff. So in that way, you don't have people not doing anything, they're sitting on the site, they are involved, they don't have to do the same activity, but they are involved in the overall activity. So it's kind of going out and goes coming out of the box and finding the way that everybody can have a play.
Jeremy Lesniak:
You're describing an environment in that I'm becoming more and more aware of where the line is, for different schools. In one sense, you have kind of the old way of looking at it, where the instructor is up here, and everyone else is here and their role, they kind of have two roles to train themselves, you know, to learn, but also to serve the instructor to serve the school. But what you're describing is much more balanced, where you recognize your role as the instructor, you still have a role. It's not that everyone's serving you. It's that you're all serving each other.
Les Bubka:
So I've never been a fan of militaristic style, I've got the issues with following authorities anyway.
Jeremy Lesniak:
You're not alone,
Les Bubka:
So we are more open-minded, we don't use titles and stuff like that, I'm just less. And if somebody wants to call me Sensei fine. But we are there to support each other, right? And if there's less stress, there are less problems and people learn faster. So my welcoming thing is that we've got a strict rule on the one don't get stressed. And people go, okay, because they build that that stress that they are just going to be roles in very strict, don't get stressed, can't do anything wrong.
If you do something wrong, it's my job to correct and help you are one of the people right so so all students support each other. Not to go take it you know that everybody's an instructor. But as far as well, that's probably coming from Poland, because I've done wrestling in Poland as well. And in coaching it I don't like the word instructor anymore. Because you pull out the instructor just instructs and the coach is a higher education staff. So you're coaching people instead of just showing them the way so I rather describe myself as a coach. So I'm there to build them up instead of just showing them what to do it doesn't make sense
Jeremy Lesniak:
It does. It's actually it's a term that you filled out on the form. We asked you what title do you use and you said well, you essentially listeners wrote down Sensei f you're going to use something we can use sensei but I'd rather you don't use anything. But in that box over the years that we've been doing this, I see the word coach show up a lot more than it used to.
Les Bubka:
In the UK is strange because they're equal. And generally for karate is used, instructor? So when I say I'm a coach people like what does it mean? Your instructor now. I got the coaching qualification which you pull on instructors maybe that way I'm looking from a Polish perspective because I'm sure that that important instructor you're doing within three weekends to be a coach, it is five years to be a first-class coach, and another two years to be to second and then first and then one more year to be a first-class coach. So he's about five years to be a coach at university. I don’t have that other coaching qualification. So I rather my teacher said they use the name coach for myself, which kind of seems to be rubbing people the wrong way in the UK.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Interesting. See now here. I don't think we have quite as much baggage with the word instructor. But I also don't think the word coach is going to be met with as much difficulty unless you're in a very traditional martial arts circle. And then you also I'm sure you're aware there, plenty of people will get really committed in certain titles for certain people certain will rank right. I do like the word coach for exactly the reason you're using it. That it is more than showing people how to do things an instructor is a more or less a one-way relationship, I'm going to instruct you, if you don't get it. That's not part of my job.
But if I'm your coach, if you're my coach, if we're not getting it, it is our job. It is part of our responsibility. And I suspect when we talk about it that way, most of the folks listening who run martial arts schools will think, it absolutely is my job to make sure what I do lands and is understood. And for me to help them get the best experience possible.
Les Bubka:
Exactly. We're trying to get them better than us. If I just instruct, I'm just passing what I know, and I keep them under the bar. If I coach, I will go the extra mile to make them better. Sometimes it means that I have to send them to somebody else because it reached my limit, right? Which I think that is the issue as well in karate circles that everybody wants to be on top and keep people and especially women under the glass ceiling. Because a woman will be a higher grade than me. Well, I love it. If people get better than me, that means I've done my job properly, right?
Jeremy Lesniak:
Right, more and more. I think I see that attitude coming through this idea that the best instructors, coaches, whatever term you want to apply, will create students who sort surpass them. Whereas when I was coming, that idea was just that was nobody even talked about that that was impossible. It was as if martial arts kept getting worse over time, because they wouldn't quite reach the standard of the instructors. And I'd rather see it go the other way. I want to know that in 50 or 100 years. Martial arts and martial artists are better than ever.
Les Bubka:
Well, that's the purpose of evolution, isn't it to make us better? SoI don't know why. I must be ego evolved.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Ego.
Les Bubka:
I was fortunate because my teacher always was very open. So I went to flew to the Dojo and was very stressed. And he said, if you want to go and check other schools, there are plenty of schools, just the one would you prefer because I wasn't my friend, they stayed in that one. But ever since then we had always opened seminars with different teachers to try this stuff.
I ended up in a wrestling club, and become coaching in there, learn with them and change my karate in a big way because of the wrestling coach. And that's where I kind of learned the difference between the instructor and the coach. The way they've been taught in a resting class was way comprehensive, so all around it. Then in my karate school, although my teacher was very good, he was lacking of that educational knowledge. Because he was only on an instructor's course. He hasn't had an in-depth teaching methodology. And that's what I see in karate. That is the methodology of teaching is a bit way behind two models of combat sports, if that makes sense but I just put the light on because I've been discharged.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Sure, I want to ask about something because I think I know something that some of the listeners may not know. And if they don't know this might hearing about this might clarify some things for them. I know in some countries, and I'm guessing Poland is one of them, in order to instruct or to coach certain things, you have to have some kind of certification that the government signs off on us. That's what you're talking about with that instructor course that three weeks, but that doesn't mean that your instructor had three weeks of martial arts experience.
Les Bubka:
No, he's got about 50 years. In Poland, if you want to open your own class, you need to be a minimum fifth Q, and do the national cause recognized by the governing body, which is one pair system. So it was karate, and it was shorter [0:45:53-0:45:55] but you had the karate instructor. So that was about three weekends and that gives you the basics. So it was two parts, so the basic instructor and then the specialized instructor for karate. Part two is, to be a coach, you need to have five years of university. Wow. So where you learn how to teach by basically becoming a wrestling teacher or Karate teacher. So well, that's full education, right? Now it's changed, it took the UK style where you just put on a black belt and off you go, and you can grab insurance and you are paid to teach.
Jeremy Lesniak:
You hinted at some of the things you've learned as a wrestling coach, that changed the way you looked at a karate class. We talked about it being more well rounded, that your instructor was good, but he lacked some things. Can you talk more about that?
Les Bubka:
So for me, the big change was that everything we learned, was put into practice at the end of the class. So, although we had the sparrings and stuff like in Colorado, it was kind of cooking style, so knocked down. So no grappling, just kicks, and stuff. In wrestling, whatever subject was there, there was always a play fight, plus sparring. So you didn't try to take your head or your partner's head off without practice stuff. You're going through that stage of play. And that's how I incorporated my karate stuff. So we do applications for Kata, whatever. And then we've got the play side, where there is no ego involved, we didn't try to win, you just go through the motion with working with your opponent, but not fully compliant, if that makes sense.
Jeremy Lesniak:
So trying to understand that concept for that technique, that drill.
Les Bubka:
Yes, we talked about that on every session, we do some form of sparring, and it brings results, right, or the guys are getting better, it's like in the BJJ, and stuff like that. The other thing was that you had mental coaching as well. So we introduced that later in our karate class, like visualization. Dealing with injuries, overcoming the injuries, how your brain is involved in making your joints work better after injury, and stuff like that. So there's a lot of more mental work involved in it, building up the students to be confident individuals instead of just saying those kids like that to 10,000 kicks and is going to work for you, right?
So that kind of this difference and as well, for me, I reversed the recent syllabus. So when I started was like a pyramid so you got tons of techniques for a white belt. And then you specialize, so for us now it's a diamond. So you start with a very small amount of techniques and easy ones, then build up to the more complicated and more, and then after blackbelt, you narrow a specialization, right? So we've got 10 Katas, but from second down second blackbelt you choose only three then you focus and specialize in it. And people working, I will tell you if it works in about 10 years at the moment, three years.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Well, I bet you know that it's working for the white belts.
Les Bubka:
Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I'm sure that the difference between you go white, yellow, or white green?
Les Bubka:
We go white, yellow.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Okay.
Les Bubka:
Then green.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I'm sure you can see a difference at a yellow belt test with less material for them to have to worry and this is something I have long thought about and I'm starting to see more and more schools there are attacking this problem in different ways. But the idea is that a white belt needs to know several forms and 30 different techniques before a yellow belt. I don't think it's a coincidence that most people drop out before the yellow bell. We're overwhelming them. It's too much stuff. It doesn't happen in any other hobby or sport.
Les Bubka:
Exactly.
Jeremy Lesniak:
We give them a little bit so they can work on it and feel good. Like they actually know something.
Les Bubka:
So we changed as well, so I do call it a Kata-based syllabus. So we don't do all our key home taken straight from Kata so on each grading, you've got the technique straight from Kata. And we don't waste time on standing Kihon when you do Kata, you do Kihon, rest is all with a partner. And I kind of teach the Kata the opposite way. So we do first applications and then go to Kata which some people say that my students’ kata or my kata is not very pretty because we don't care about aesthetics, we sure work about the movement. So we have different ways and different flavors. That's the other beauty of Katas, you can make it whatever you want, isn't it?
Jeremy Lesniak:
Well, if you made it really pretty, there'd be just as many people saying, well, it doesn't look like that's very effective.
Les Bubka:
Exactly.
Jeremy Lesniak:
You can't make everyone happy. And nor should you try?
Les Bubka:
Exactly.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Okay. You talked about looking for this university, this second book, and everything, but it sounds like you've got some of that down that is that second book released or not yet?
Les Bubka:
No, that's my fourth book.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Okay. All right. So I'm missing something.so we've got to fill those gaps then,
Les Bubka:
So the first one was an anxious blackbelt, then the second one was a 14 Karate. So I used to run a blog. But friends of mine said is really complicated to find your articles making a book. So Freud in the book, the third is the dark side of Karate, about all the things big corporations.
Jeremy Lesniak:
We're gonna come back to that in a moment.
Les Bubka:
What are all the bad things in Karate, we've got the Mental Health Journal, where you fill up your classes, and mark your mood, before and after. And this is very popular in the UK. And now it's gonna be Karate for mental health, I am waiting for two more interviews and that should be done. It's gonna be unusual, because either it's gonna catch on, or people are gonna hate it because,
Jeremy Lesniak:
Could be both.
Les Bubka:
Could be both. What I've done is because working with people with mental health is a specific thing. The way some of them talk is very specific, and sometimes very difficult to follow. So I decided to not correct any grammar in the conversation with so give the reader a feel, of how it is to talk with people with disability or learning difficulties, or mental health because it's not so straightforward. So either people are going to hate it because sometimes it's kind of you to have to go come back and trace it or people gonna love it because it is the real thing, right? It's not watered down and makes it pretty it is as it is. So it's really our conversation put on paper, as it was with all the grammar mistakes, mine and the other people.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I love it. I look forward to that. Let's go back to I think it was your third, the third book you mentioned Darkside of karate. That's a bold title. Tell us about that.
Les Bubka:
So because I went, sorry, something popped up. So I went through different organizations, we had some disturbance in our club and my teacher stopped teaching and put us in different schools. I'm not gonna say names and books either. So I described the process of what happens in the opening of a room. I probably am going to try to code some openings. So though, the book starts with the Master passing down, but dying on the bed, his spirit goes hovers over his body, and see his free students arguing about who's got the right lineage and who's gonna be the successor, and then he gives one and to be a successor, he thought he was the best one.
But hovering is seen how the guy was corrupt and managed to manipulate him to get and how the honest student is being taken advantage of. And from that is branching out to different styles of different antiheroes using different tactics to become a powerful Dojo owner or instructor or coach or whatever you want. So there are different threads, most based on my experience within corporations. Buying grades, selling grades, ganging up on people to take them out of the equation, and stuff like that.
Jeremy Lesniak:
There is so much more of this. When it's obvious when it happens and it's loud, it's at a big level, right? That's easy to spot. But there's so much of this, that happens subtly. There's so much of this going on. And I'll be honest, I knew what happened. I knew it was common. I did not know how common it was until the last few years. As I've done more of this more episodes of the show, I get to meet more and more people. And I hear stories from people, they don't even realize that this is what's going on. They're involved in it and they don't see it. And it blows my mind.
Les Bubka:
But I think it's human nature because being involved in Olympic wrestling and stuff like that same pool everywhere they use their nice language. And it's more money involved, it is multiplied. I would love to believe that in our we are all promoting martial arts to make better people. But the truth is that good instructor make good people. And, and I don't mean technically good, I mean, the good people. And unfortunately, martial arts are like money. They amplify your character. If you've got more money and you're a bad person, you're just a more powerful bad person.
Same on a Dojo floor, if you've got somebody who likes to abuse the power, that's what happens. Their grades give them more power to abuse, unfortunately. But we all know people are aware of it, that's the purpose of the book, I give some tips to spot things out. And the more people are aware of it, the more we can eradicate it, I don't think so we're gonna be super successful with it. Because like I said, there's money to make to be made. There are always gonna be people abusing their power.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Well, there's one thing that gives me hope. And that is I work with a lot of martial artists, and I consult with some martial arts schools. And one of the things I see is that the schools that are not focused on money but are instead focused on building a quality culture, as you talked about, about being there, supporting their students providing the best balance they can, and investing themselves with their students and an outcome that makes everyone better to make more money. And so if people realize, okay, if I can forget about money to some degree, if I can focus on quality, and then ironically makes me more money. Hopefully, over time, as people start to realize that will help people make better decisions. There will always be some, I'm sure we agree that there's always human nature, as you said.
Les Bubka:
I think the other problem is that, at least for me, it was a huge problem is that we've got, we've been taught that mentality of poor Sensei, right? You're only a good instructor if you give everything for free, and make money on it. So there's kind of a stigma for people who are decent to make money on martial arts, right? It took me a long, long time to convince myself and make peace with myself, that I can make a decent living. Do what I do best. Instead of having a second fed job, just to train in the evening, two hours.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Can you speak to that more I'm sure we have people listening, and some of them will say no, great martial arts instructor does it all for free. Forget about that. I don't care about those people right now. But for the people who hear you, and they say you know what? I agree but I'm also struggling with that decision. What would you tell them? What did you tell yourself?
Les Bubka:
I'm gonna tell you what my friends told me and that is enough.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I do think
Les Bubka:
He said to me that, you know, thing, If you'll be working eight to 10 hours a day, then you go to teach, can you put 100% of your effort into teaching? No, because you're tired from work. So if I put 100% of my effort to teach but I don't work, I have no food. I cannot teach, because I will be starving, right? I have bills to pay everything. So the best way to give quality martial arts is to focus on doing this as your work. I'm not saying stealing money, or giving your belts away, you provide a service. There is no problem with personal trainers, there is no problem with cooks, there is no problem with wood makers, or whatever other profession. It is only in martial arts, that you must be a full sensei to do a good job. And I don't really know where that comes from. But that kind of was narration where I was growing up in martial arts, right? Only good teachers do it free of passion. And, everybody needs to eat, everyone's got families until you're doing a decent service to people and you support community, you're giving back to the community, I don't see a problem. So if you're listening to this, or watching this, and you've got that problem, think how much your martial arts would be better if you could do it eight hours a day, and be paid for it. How much your students will benefit?
Jeremy Lesniak:
The scenario you're talking about is exactly why I had a school for a few years, a long time ago. And that's why I closed it because I was tired of going to class. And not being able to give my students my best. I knew it wasn't my best. I'd walk in the door saying I'm at best 50% today. And I felt like I was robbing them, that they deserved better. And at the time, I wasn't able to deliver more so I closed the school. And I know I'm not alone.
Les Bubka:
As well, you need to facilitate the time for making a program for teaching, you just cannot go and make it up on the spot or go to this today, that today, you need to have a program so you've got that progression and your students are progressing in nice ways not jumping in. And nobody does anything correctly.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Where can people find your books?
Les Bubka:
Amazon is the easiest way. We've got some on our website but due to the Brexit, I don't know how much they cost. They have done it very nicely. So sometimes people get in parts of Europe book and it cost more in taxes than actually the worth of the book. So I kind of stopped selling abroad from the website, because just people don't get the value. So Amazon is the easiest way to get it. But everything else is on our website, so our Facebook. We've got a small podcast, not as well known as yours, but a mini-podcast is in a multimedia part of a website and it's www.lesbubka.co.uk.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And tell us more about your podcast.
Les Bubka:
So it's called anxious blackbelt when we tried to get the conversation with people about mental health and how different martial arts getting benefit them. Sometimes the random stuff, whatever comes to my mind. Sometimes you just need to wash up and talk to the forms or random ramblings by intervals around mental health and karate. I guess it is very small. But if you want to try it, I will work on all the listens
Jeremy Lesniak:
I have said from day one. I don't care what podcast people listen long as if it enhances their experience of martial arts then they should listen to it which is why you know we so often have other podcast hosts on we actually have a website. I don't think you're up there, you should fill out the form called martialartspodcast.com So we can promote as many martial arts podcasts as we can because you know a rising tide lifts all ships. I want to support everybody that we can
Les Bubka:
Cool, I will make sure to fill it out.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Awesome. This has been great. Thank you. Thank you so much for coming on. And it's time to wrap. So how do you want to leave it? What are your final words to share with the audience today?
Les Bubka:
My final words would be a quote, which I come up with, and it's kind of a motto, for myself. So if you've got a Karate student that applies to you, your Karate teacher applies to you as well. So strong and caring people are the pillars of society. And karate helps to see, making the wrong and karate since karate heads to cultivate them. Okay, can I say it again?
Jeremy Lesniak:
Please say it again.
Les Bubka:
So strong and caring people are the pillars of society, and karate helps to cultivate them. And I think that's the best description of what I do. We try to make strong caring people.
Jeremy Lesniak:
It probably doesn't come as a surprise to any of you that martial arts training can have a benefit on mental health. I was really excited to hear how Les is leaning into that.I think that's so great. The idea of classes rooted and that benefit just means a great deal to me. I suspect he's not the only person doing this. But I hope most importantly, others will take his lead and implement these classes or maybe adjust how classes are done. Because I think where we are in the world, I think we need that. Les, thanks for coming on. Thanks for doing what you do.I appreciate you spending some time with me.
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