Episode 746 - Wesley Chu

Wesley Chu is a Martial Arts practitioner, Actor, stuntman, and #1 New York Times bestselling author.

What is a fight? A fight is a conversation with fists. It is the last resort to diplomacy. So every fight in a novel has to have purpose that is either to convince the other side that you’re correct or you’re trying to get past the obstacle to get to a blunt point…

Wesley Chu - Episode 746

Wesley Chu is the #1 New York Times bestselling author of twelve published novels, including Time Salvager, The Rise of Io, and The Walking Dead: Typhoon. He won the Astounding Award for Best New Writer. His debut, The Lives of Tao, won the Young Adult Library Services Association Alex Award.

Wesley Chu is an accomplished martial artist and a former member of the Screen Actors Guild. He has acted in film and television, worked as a model and stuntman, and summited Kilimanjaro.

In this episode, Wesley Chu shares his journey to the martial arts and how far he went to achieve his dream to become an author. Listen to learn more!

Show Transcript

You can read the transcript below.

Jeremy Lesniak:

Hello, everyone and welcome. This is whistlekick martial arts radio episode 746 with my guest today, Wesley Chu. I'm Jeremy Lesniak, your host for the show founder whistlekick, where all of the great stuff that we do is in support of the traditional martial arts. We're constantly rolling out new things, updating things, adding things, supporting things. And that's why you should visit whistlekick.com. It's our online home, the place to find out about all these great things that we're working on, in support of you and the stuff that you love. So check it out. 

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Wesley Chu:

Hey, how's it going?

Jeremy Lesniak:

It's going well, thanks for being here. 

Wesley Chu:

Yeah. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

What's going on with that background? Obviously, it's the Northern Lights. But why do you have the Northern Lights as your background?

Wesley Chu:

Well, I have been writing full time since 2012. And so for the past, like 10 years, I've had the house to myself. So when the pandemic started, you know, suddenly I went from having the house to myself to like my wife working at home, I got two young kids under six. 

And we just had to figure out how to make it work in our house. So basically, my study became like my workout rooms/the guest bedroom/everything, everything that didn't fit in every other room. So I don't think you need to see the flop here.

Jeremy Lesniak:

I don't know if you remember, I think it was like a year before the pandemic. There was some guy on CNN. And his kid ran into the room while he was on, right. And I saw that and I was like, Oh, that's funny, that's endearing, that's authentic. And there were a lot of people that I heard making kind of judgmental comments. Oh, that's unprofessional, etc. And then fast forward a year or two. Now everybody understands. Yeah, now everybody gets it. What's it like to work from home? I've worked from home in various ways for 20 years. It is hard to draw those lines hard to create that separation.

Wesley Chu:

Absolutely especially have little kids. I mean, I remember like, early in the pandemic I saw the effects of CNN, like the scientist who was like, was one of those experts on CNN. And no, she was showing a picture of how she would look on TV. And it's like, very nice to professionals working in the background and nice sharp and everything. And then she should have a candid shot from the side. And she's like, in her living room. There's like toys on the floor, and under like, just like crap all over the place. And that's just kind of how we've had to live the past, like a couple years.

Jeremy Lesniak:

And I think there's something to that. I think there's something really positive in breaking down that barrier. And we get to see that people are people. Prior, we had to explain to people what zoom was,

Wesley Chu:

I never heard of zoom until like six months into the pandemic. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

We've been using Zoom since 2018. Like early 2018. So it makes our job easier.

Wesley Chu:

I mean, just the idea of breaking that barrier, like everybody needs to go to work to like now that we can do all our work. We can avoid a two hour commute, why don't we do that. If we can keep quality of work going and improve our home life and spend more time with our kids and not have to drive and waste gas and rubber as much.

Jeremy Lesniak:

Not put on pants.

Wesley Chu:

Not put on pants. I mean, it's fine. Before the pandemic and I used to do it, I do locks inventions that go on tours and everything. So I have like, home clothes and then I have like, touring clothes, right? And now like, no three years into it. I don't all I have is like Under Armour

Jeremy Lesniak:

Your professional clothes or just tops. 

Wesley Chu:

Oh, no, my professional clothes like Lululemon whatever. Like I don't, I can not imagine ever buying a huge jacket or tie ever again. Yeah, that would have a wedding. I'm good. I'm gonna go and buy little lemons.

Jeremy Lesniak:

I'm waiting for fashion to change so much that it's like sweatpants on the bottom and like a nice shirt on top. Are we already there? For some people, I mean, I actually have some Under Armour pants on and you know, a plain T. But there are times where I'm doing work with clients or something. And I'll put on a button up shirt. I'm not changing my panel. Yeah, absolutely not gonna see.

Wesley Chu:

Hmm. I'm gonna do a copy. We're like, are you actually wearing pants? Like, look?

Jeremy Lesniak:

In case you didn't believe you said that you've been writing from home for a while? 

Wesley Chu:

Yes. So I debuted in 2013. I technically went pro as an author in 2012, which is kind of like when I got my first book deal. And I think maybe like six months into my debut, I just kind of thought, “What am I gonna go for?'' and we'll see what happens. And my full time writing my wife at the time was like, I'm gonna give you two years to make something of yourself not to get a job.

Jeremy Lesniak:

What made you want to write because you must know that most writers never make not just enough money, but any money?

Wesley Chu:

Yes, that publishing is not the most profitable for you now.

Jeremy Lesniak:

So did you think that you had a different, something different to contribute that would make success more likely? Or was there a passion around writing?

Wesley Chu:

Combination of a couple of things. I think, first of all, I wanted to be a writer since I was like, in second grade. And when I was 16, I was like I'm gonna be an English major, just like you're gonna write books for a living. So my father's an English professor. So he, he's, he knows what that tracks like, and he was like, no sun, your life will suffer. So I didn't become I wasn't an English major, I’m a computer science major. I've worked in consulting afterwards working for large financial institutions. And I was just generally kind of miserable. So like, it took me a long time to kind of figure out what I wanted to do. 

And, I actually had to retire from martial arts too, to write, because when I was training, and one of those, like, you got all or nothing kind of guy. So at the height of my training, I was training, like 18/20 hours a week, on average, three hours a day, six days a week. And at one point, you know, I'm in my late 20s, I'm really good at shooting up at backwashing and Tai Chi, but I was like, how many friends do I hate my job, but what am I doing? And then it's kind of back then when I was like, okay, I've always wanted to be a writer. 

You've written some like enough stuff, and you were a kid, and you were pretty good at it. You enjoyed it. So let's give it a shot. And I started giving it a shot. And then like six months into it, I was like, what you cannot do both? 

Well, there's a martial arts lesson, I used to have this like, if you try to find five different five different styles, you're gonna do all five very poorly. And for me, I can maintain a very high level of martial arts that require so much time, so much effort, so much dedication into all these aspects. Or I can give this Friday thing a shot if I really want to do it. And just six months into it, I realized that yeah, I want to give this a real shot. And in order to quote unquote, you know, put in the time and effort and work into it to go pro. Something had to give and in my case, it became our martial arts.

Jeremy Lesniak:

It's the notion of burning the ships. Yeah, let's just cast aside everything else, let's 100% focus on this as much as possible. So I'm curious, you put martial arts down, were there other things that you put down? Did you? Did you set up your relationship with your wife to be different?

Wesley Chu:

I mean, so at the time, I was a member of the Screen Actors Guild, so I actually had a relatively decent commercial acting career in Chicago. And, you know, I was training in Bagua, Chen Style, T'ai chi does those 20 hours a week, at the time I was also doing it for the kids. So it was a little bit easier for me to be gone for like it all out the entire day, entire week. But once I made that change, where I go, okay, this is what I want to be excellent at. This is the one thing that, you know, when I go when I die one day, I want to say, I gave this lifelong dream, everything I had. And to do that, I gave up martial arts, and I gave up acting, and just kind of said, “Okay, let's do it.” And that's what happens. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

How'd you get into acting by accident? 

Wesley Chu:

Okay, so I was, what had that girl I was training. So, earlier on, I was trying it out. Kung Fu school. And this independent filmmaker came in looking for basically stepping in and extras, you know, it was it was a, it was a low budget film. And initially, I was recruited to just kind of like, be like, gangbanger, number three, or one of those guys who like to run, run, run, throw a couple punches, and learn how to take a particular punch and like, go down. And I guess I'd avoid us and I had a good enough look to the director that he put me in a speaking role, and I think the great thing about film is that no matter how bad of an actor you are, you can always just cut and reshoot. So, after we have to be good ones, you have to be good ones. 

And usually, if you're doing like, in 10 takes, you have at least one good take, no matter how bad you are. So eventually, I was like, “Okay, this is kind of cool and Chicago is very, very, it's an easier entry point for acting than most other cities, like go to LA, it's brutal. But Chicago is a great commercial town. 

And, to be honest, I was like a token Asian guy for like, a bunch of commercials. And it worked for me. And that's how I got into it. So eventually, I you know, became like, a legitimate side hustle for me. Until I realized that, I actually really didn't love acting that much. I love martial arts way more than acting. And then I wanted to be a writer more than I wanted to know, both acting or martial arts. So I just kind of like to prioritize.

Jeremy Lesniak:

Was there ever the thought, okay, what if? What if I can move kind of up if you're doing well enough in acting? Can you move up? Can you get some martial arts rolls? In and of itself wasn't appealing enough to take the momentum you had? And before it before you answer, because that question sounds judgmental, and I don't mean it in a judgmental way. 

I'm asking because I suspect that there are a lot of people listening, going. You already had your sag card, and you're acting and you're getting gigs, and you're doing martial arts, and you're good. And you, in your words which based on what we've heard from past guests, should carve out a niche for you. And you didn't want to.

Wesley Chu:

Yeah, I didn't want it. I mean, it was a tough choice. I mean, it was like, at the time, I was my I was my suicide car. Also psychology. I was the number one student. I was working regularly as an actor, you know, I did book a few, like small movie roles, and I had some TV stuff. But I think at the end of the day, you know, it's just, I took a step back, and I kind of thought to myself, Why am I doing this, and at the end of the day, I just didn't love it. I didn't love acting. I didn't love the craft. 

At one point, I considered making the move to LA and I just realized that it was not like I hated auditioning. I hated the process. You know? And so it's kind of like, as cool as it was. What did I want to do? What makes me happy? What makes me feel like I've accomplished something? What makes me feel like, you know, this is something I can do for the rest of my life and acting, isn't it?

Jeremy Lesniak:

That's tremendously insightful for someone who was in your late 20s. Late 20s. And especially with a potential career path that so many people fall all over themselves or sacrifice everything, to not even get to where you were. That's powerful. It's a powerful realization, did you talk to people about this?

Wesley Chu:

I did. So I mean, here's the thing, there is a difference between wanting to be something, and the process and journey of doing it. I wanted to be an actor. And I know, obviously, it's cool, and you want to be famous, and you want to, like, see yourself on TV. But if you've ever done like, commercial, commercial work, industrial work, you know, like, TV shows and stuff, it is a drag, to be honest, it's a dreadful drag for me. 

So it was a drag for me, it's like when you're doing cheap TV is boring, you're sitting around a lot, it's your, you know, you're going through the exact same scenes all the time. And like, if you're doing like commercial work, literally, that 32nd spot, you're spending 10 hours shooting, you know, and if you're doing like, God forbid, if you're doing like something with food, and you're just like chewing on food all day, you're spitting it out. 

It's not fun, it really isn't fun. I think this theater is a lot more fun than the film and television and I think most actors would agree with that. But I had fun doing martial arts and I had fun as a writer and acting wasn't doing it for me.

Jeremy Lesniak:

So when you started thinking about okay, writing is going to be writing is going to be the thing I'm going to throw 100% into that, especially as you started thinking about, I'm going to have to put martial arts down you must have started thinking about what it was you were going to write about, and how you're going to write about it.

Wesley Chu:

That's one of those things where like, there is something with like, youthful, ignorant exuberance. Early on, putting this early on, I was like, I am going to just go. I'm not going to think about it too much. I'm just going to write and I'm and because of my background, you know, all of my books have a fair amount of martial arts in it. My debut novel is called The Lives of Tao. And it's been overweight, IT guy who gets possessed by an alien, who is you know, who's fighting the secret war between like two two alien factions, and this alien is going into this alien and Tao used to possess like, other people throughout history, and he was like, getting as calm, and he was getting a bit of Tai Chi and all these things that I know about, and that I love. So it was a joy to kind of write that. 

Because especially early in your career you draw upon things and things you love, and that just happens to everything that I love about martial arts and Samurai Sunday movies, and different styles and different kinds of weapons that I put on my book. 

So it was a really fun process. And there's something to be said about writing when you're inspired. And there's no greater inspiration than when you're an aspiring writer, and like, the productive potential was endless. I was less jaded back then.

Jeremy Lesniak:

Sure. Or the other thing I'm trying to wrap my head around is, it sounds like you found success quickly. You said your wife gave you two years. So obviously, it was less than that. I'm not going to ask you the specifics of where you applied your efforts that led to that success, because inevitably that, you know, that's your own premise, or if you choose to give us some of those moments, that's fine.

Wesley Chu:

I mean, go through, like, when I went full time, I think it was actually January 2014, and I had my two year limit and like, and I'll be honest, I had a pretty good job, you know, before I went full time writing and I just hated it. You know? I got laid off, which is even better, convenient. I know, right? 

Jeremy Lesniak:

Well, I got severance or just unemployment. Both. Oh, like, this is Kismet. This is supposed to happen?

Wesley Chu:

It was like, in that way it did help me a lot because my wife was like, okay, you're not making zero money because I think I took like a 98% pay cut. I had a pretty good job. That's a pay cut and like my wife was like, You're not doing this to me. I like to just sleep on it. So we came to the arrangement of I got two years to make the film myself, or if not, I need to go back and get a job in my previous industry, and that was my motivation. 

So, yeah, I think I wrote two books that year. And then I wrote two books and next year, so like, within like that, you know, for a two year timeframe, I wrote like four books. And they were commercial there, enough commercial successes that after, you know, after the third book got published, I begin to kind of have confidence that, hey, maybe I have something here obviously, there's has to be some talent, but you know, just like in martial arts, to be honest, I feel like talent is the least important aspect of success

Jeremy Lesniak:

For commercial success. I would agree.

Wesley Chu:

I'm just, I think, even in training, one of my Tai Chi teachers, he always said in a fight. Talent is like getting percent of the equation. And what did he say? It's been a while since I said this quote, or talent was 30%. Like, hard work was like, 25. And the rest is all aggression. He who is most aggressive, I mean, will usually win a fight. And I would say, if you're doing linearly, like tournaments and sparring, I would probably disagree with that. But in a street fight, or in a fight, where there's no rules. And you don't know exactly, There's no rules. And it's kind of not like a step fight, which is kind of just a spontaneous fight for aggression, or will usually win the fight.

Jeremy Lesniak:

I was thinking about this the other day in the context of animals and people, confrontation with animals and people, and how an adult human being, a 200 pound man might run away from a 20 pound dog. That's right. If you look at the attributes, there's no reason the human being shouldn't win, but it's the ferocity of the 20 pound dog. So that's exactly what you're talking to me about.

Wesley Chu:

Aggression goes for a lot. And, and also, that's like, it, this is something that we talked about a lot, when we were training, my, my master would used to show me like, like, if you see a lion pounce, okay? A lion pounces with his entire body, you know, integrated movement is what you know, is what animals do. And in order to commit your body to that, you have to have a sense of like, assertive control and aggression. And for most people who aren't, aren't used to fighting who aren't used to, you know, they're like, you can tell because when they're standing there, you know, their arm strength versus body strength. It's, it's, you're not you're not committing. And that's part of aggression, too, is being able to kind of like, tune your body and commit into a movement or fight.

Jeremy Lesniak:

Sure. We've had a number of authors on the show, and those authors who have spent time in martial arts tend to bring their mark, you already said, you're bringing your martial arts into your stories. Was that easy for you?

Wesley Chu:

It was, in many ways, too easy. And here's why. Because, like, the most important part, the worst book ever published, but the most important book ever published was my debut novel. And the reason for that is because I kind of think that's where I learned to make all the mistakes. So I remember in the early draft of my book, I would you know, I love fighting. And I think most martial artists love it. Absolutely, we can reenact fight scenes, we can break down fight scenes, we can watch, I can watch, you know, once upon a time in China, and I'd be like, even though it's fighting with a rope, those are rotor movements. And that's a bow staff. And I can kind of see how it works. 

So I love working on fight scenes. So when I wrote fight scenes, it was my bread and butter, I was like, I'm just wallowing in joy. And part of the problem is fighting. Effective fight scenes depend on the medium. So I learned how to break down fight scenes from things like training and for watching movies. But to properly write a fight scene, you need to kind of like to reduce it even more. I think I've learned like when my wife read like, those early fight scenes, she'd be like, you know, flipping through the pages after a watch, but you know, at this point, you're just like mentally masturbating and, you know, because detailed fight scenes in that in that way might work for choreography, but it doesn't work on the page. 

You know, it's not about the movement that matters. It's about the emotion it's about, it's about the results of the actions. So when you spend too much time kind of going like waiting in the weeds. Are fights in our pros, you're going to lose the reader. So it was one of those things where I had to kind of fine tune myself. How do you do if I am known as an author who writes fight scenes? How do I write it in a way that best serves the reader, not what I had in my head.

Jeremy Lesniak:

And so if we were to look at the fight scenes between your first book and a more recent book, side by side, what would we notice differently?

I would say that I did fix a lot of my, you know, hang ups in my debut novel, so it's not as bad as those early drafts no one will ever see. But definitely, my later fight scenes, they're more multi-layered. So not only are they exciting, and there's a fight. What is the fight? A fight is a conversation with fists, you know, we are, it's the last resort of diplomacy. So every fight in a novel has to have a purpose, either we're trying to win an argument, convincing, argue, convince one side that you know, your side, your side is correct, or you're trying to get past this obstacle to get to a plumb point. 

So now, with my more recent fight, more recent scenes, action scenes, every scene has had layers, so not only is it exciting and justified scene, but it has to serve a purpose it has to it has to change how the characters emotional arcs are, so that the the guy who goes into the fight cannot be the same guy comes out of the fight. 

I don't care if you have a broken arm, I don't care if like, you know, while you're fighting you some other aspects of that, that has reminded you of other things in your life that are important. I mean, it hasn't changed you in a way so that when you come out of it, there has to be a payout, a payoff for for the reader, and it also appeals to the character.

Jeremy Lesniak:

I will start thinking like, I'm thinking through fight scenes, especially ones that I like, Right? In TV and movies and books, that seems to hold whether it could be an injury or just emotional distress.

Wesley Chu:

Yeah, I'll give you an example. Like, have you seen the Transformers movies? Tons of fight scenes. Did any of them really move you?

Jeremy Lesniak:

Only one. The one that Optimus.

Wesley Chu:

It doesn't say it like, you know, I don't like to put down other like properties, but like those certain fight scenes where like, it's chaotic. It's exciting. There's so much stuff going on, but I'm watching it going and you're not invested. I'm invested, you know, and when they come out of it, you might see some burn marks on like Bumblebee shoulders or something. But the next fight scene, he's going at it again? 

Jeremy Lesniak:

If there's no consequences, no value and…

Wesley Chu:

Exactly, yeah. No, you gotta come out of it. A different person. Bumblebee, has to come out of every bite like a little more worn down a little closer to his closer to his goal or just something so you got to give me you got to give me the distance between where he was and where he's at now.

Jeremy Lesniak:

Now this seems like something you've thought about a lot. Is this something that came after you started writing? Or was this something you were aware of? Because you're articulating it very succinctly and I've never heard it like this before. 

Wesley Chu:

I think I was always more aware of these sorts of details and probably most of the writers and part of it just because I've trained in it, you know, I know after three rounds of a sparring match, I'm dead on my feet. I know that if you watch all these [00:29:08-00:29:11]l. He's got his broadsword in his hand. He's holding it and I'm like dude, have you held it abroad for two minutes?

Jeremy Lesniak:

I've smelled the same: what is the dragon on the ground?

Wesley Chu:

What is the weapon weight? And you know if you look at most actual weapons, they're not heavy like swords almost most doors unless you're talking about those who do shoot the ball handlers are like under two pounds

Jeremy Lesniak:

But you're still putting it away in between. 

Wesley Chu:

Exactly, even though the weapons are two pounds you haven't achieved until you need it because nobody wants to carry that stuff. So I mean, there's a lot of small details like that, that matter and and until you actually swing a sword until you carry a staff along for six months. If in a small, small town village and you don't you're not going to know how that feels, how comrades you could be. 

I went to [00:30:28-00:30:10] in 2015. And we were hiking all day, but when you camp at night, sometimes you're not camping on flat ground and you're often not, you're camping out of like, 3 or 4% inclines, and you wake up the next day, like, one end of your tent because you rolled around, and that happens and that's what real life is like when you're camping out and like instead of manicured lawns. 

So as a writer, when you want to keep things realistic, you have to keep pay attention to the small details. I've seen too many scenes where like, you know, dudes, don't ever reload their pistols. They're just shooting and like, at some point you gotta run out, bro. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

I don't know anyone who shoots, watches those scenes in movies? And they're like, what went okay? I wasn't aware that that was a 428 round magazine.

Wesley Chu:

Well, pro writing tip. You readers are generally pretty good about mistakes, you make no mistakes here in there. And like if you don't get everything perfect. They'll be like, I caught that. But whatever. We'll move on. But there are two things that you can never get wrong in books. First one is guns. Okay, I made a mistake. Where like, I make a clip and magazine interchangeable.

Jeremy Lesniak:

He called it a clip. Because there's so two listeners if you're not aware of gun culture. Magazine is the modern thing that holds ammunition. A clip is like the World War One era thing. Attached to. A lot of people use them interchangeably. And there's a group of diehard gun nuts, even today, who get really bent out of shape if you miss attributes. So the first one is guns. And the second one is horses.

Wesley Chu:

You get horse horse stuff wrong. The horse people come after you.

Jeremy Lesniak:

Did you get something horse wise wrong, I think I wasn't too bad. Do you have to get on the right side?

Wesley Chu:

The terminology if you're talking about like, putting on a fat or like, you got to actually know the steps because if you get it wrong, they'll come after. They'll give you types of how horses trot, or dress, there's so many variables. And I found that most people are forgiving on many, many levels. When it comes to horses and guns. You can't get it wrong. For some reason.

Jeremy Lesniak:

I get it and no horse people are very passionate. Firearms. People are very passionate. I suspect that if you did not have the martial arts background you have and tried to do the things you're doing and got some things wrong, you would also find because martial artists as a community, we aren't always forgiving to each other.

Wesley Chu:

Yes, I mean, we do like those things, but we're definitely a little bit more tolerant than most, you know. And also, like most books, they don't have overly extensive fight scenes. For my first book, you know, one of my, one of my moments of pride of courage and I can reenact everything I choreographed. Which sounds good on my head. That was kind of a silly thing to be going on to care about that much and my book because you just need enough of a fight scene to get your point across and then move the follow on anything past that you should probably just cut.

Jeremy Lesniak:

Where do you take your fight scene inspiration from? If it's not generally well, I shouldn't say this, but I'm getting the sense that the fight scenes you write in books are probably not the way fight scenes and books are often done. Because most fight scenes in books are not from martial artists. I've actually done a little bit of consulting on this years ago, you know, writers saying well, what do you think about this and like, oh, this would never happen. This isn't how the body works. Right? But, you know, TV and movies, it's a lot easier for us to to see, you know how that side of the industry works. You were even part of it.

Wesley Chu:

Right? Well, I mean, I think it helps that you know, I did dabble in several different styles. And it you know, once you have you know, founded There's no knowledge of like, for me, my view has always been, at the end of the day, all martial arts styles and in the exact same place, you know, so, but it's interesting to see like, how you get there, you know, how training works? 

When you train a certain style, when you train your Krav Maga what are their foundations? How do they gauge distance? How do they fight if you train Tai Chi? What are your vertical stances? How do you know what is your movement about five are always just left and right, everything is always about when you fight, almost your first movement is to get out of that center line move to like a 60 degree angle, where we're similar, someone's defenses tend to be a little bit harder for them to kind of manage. 

So once I have that kind of information, I usually don't start with that. 

When I write a scene, I start with one of my characters trying to do it and then how do I make them interesting people? How do I make the scene dynamic? So I used to be more like, you know, here are the eight following sequences of this fight. Now, I am led by what makes this fight the most interesting, and most of the time, it's not the actual fighting. It's everything surrounding it tense, it's the emotional compass, the fastest person is going through, or sometimes it's even something as easy as like, you know, when somebody's fighting, what goes through their head, most of this muscle memory, because, you know, because that's, that's how that's how that's why we do farms, you know, 500 times. But a lot of it is like, you know, what did you focus on? It's on the ice is on the feet, you know, if you know how long is there God, there's all these aspects that that can, that a martial artists can kind of like, you know, kind of kind of spot walk while they're fighting that kind of explains where they come from. 

So it kind of influences their background. So I do, basically, it's character development, through fighting. Because you're using their point of view, to kind of ascertain certain aspects of every, every, every fight, they can, it, you're explaining how they train, what their background is. And that's kind of like, that's the layer that I'm talking about when you want to have a good fight scene as every fight, you do multiple things. It should be just cooked development. It should show what they know where they're at, and where they're going to be at. She moves the plot along, they should do like she did. We know half a dozen things that kind of like it, after the reader comes out of it. They understand so much more about the characters. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

Have you written anything that makes you think I want to go train? Have you gotten yourself excited enough? 

Wesley Chu:

I mean, I think so what happened was near the end of my martial arts career, and I was training with this, with this, you know, internal master, and I made, I don't say it's a mistake, but I became a purist, like, I love training in this particular style, but this particular family, I love this flavor of Chen Style Tai Chi. And after I kind of not, he actually passed away a few years ago, because I wanted to do Tai Chi, you know, and I thought about that all the time. But then I admit that I kind of became a snob about it when I was training with him, like I was all about the lineage, and I was, and then when I came back, when I moved to Los Angeles, in Chicago, I looked at some Tai Chi schools. 

I was kind of like, it wasn't hitting me the exact same way. That was half of it. Half of it was like, I became a style purist, but another half was, like, when you're in your 20s, and you get like punching ahead, you're like, hey, man, that's a good punch. Believe it your late 30s and you get punched in the head. You're like, that's a concussion. So at some point, it was if I did want to train, I didn't want to train but I just didn't want to take any more hits. I was getting old and my back hurt and you know, and you know, like, we all have like, kind of iffy knees at this point. Or at least I do.

Jeremy Lesniak:

So, knees are common. These copyright issues are common.

Wesley Chu:

I'm still flexible, though, that's still cats, but everything else, kind of around the wayside.

Jeremy Lesniak:

Do you think you would have ended up writing without martial arts? 

Wesley Chu:

Probably. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

You started writing sooner?

Wesley Chu:

So I started writing in second grade. And like, I wrote a short story and my father, an English professor was like, son, this doesn't suck, which is like, you know, old country, Asian parents thing is it's a high compliment. I've heard this. Yeah, so I believe I would have still been writing, but I do believe that I have brought a unique voice in the field. And, you know, I have absolutely been influenced by my background. So would I have been a successful writer? I don't know, I really can't answer that. But I like to think that because martial arts was such an important part of my life. And it's such an important part of my books that it kind of helped kind of get my foot in the door with this specific type of storytelling that I do.

Jeremy Lesniak:

Do you think you'll ever train again?

Wesley Chu:

I would like to.

Wesley Chu:

Jeremy Lesniak:

I hope so please continue.

Wesley Chu:

A different person, I used to be selected, for example. Like when I was younger, I used to love doing boxing classes, and we're just talking seminars. And I think boxing overall is a very effective and complimentary training tool to shoot for every martial artist, but then I pick it up during the pandemic, and I hated it, and part of it is, maybe part of me is no longer enjoys the repetition that you know, that boxing sometimes requires going through the combinations and editing the bags and part of me just don't have the patience to learn new forms. So I think it depends on what I'm doing. And, I do miss it on a regular basis. So it's a mindset thing, I think, for me is one of these days, I'm gonna have the right mindset, I'm gonna find, I'm going to let go of my bullshit, like, you know, ego about my family styles, or whatever. And I'm just gonna go practice and I'm going to catch it again. 

And especially with softer, more gentle styles, and you're like, whether you're Yang Style tai chi, I could do that when I'm 70. You know, and I do remember like, even though I never fought with Yang Style, tai chi, because it's actually very hard to find me so Tai Chi. But I remember having that sense of calm and then not feeling the feeling of the gym, or like the, that I should say, like, kind of go to your body. Especially one of the reasons why you do Tai Chi very slowly, is because you're trying to have an energy feel the energy through your body. When people ask me about that, what does that actually mean? 

The example I often use is like swinging a baseball bat. When you swing a baseball bat, you don't swing through your arms, you swing through your whole body, you think of your feet, you know, your body is loosened, your body is like loose and supple until that form of FinTech when you're swinging the bat. And that's when you kind of almost spear your feet with what's your fear of spearing the ground with your feet. Because the kinetic energy could go from soft to hard. So it's like it's very, it's things like that I really enjoy feeling. No, I don't, I don't enjoy punching things anymore or like feeling the impact. But I do enjoy the feeling of integrated movements and kind of not making them at the end of the day. Martial arts is a healthy exercise that keeps you young, kicks in number and keeps you fresh.

Jeremy Lesniak:

I'm glad this is your answer. Because as you were talking about it, as you might imagine, I've had a few conversations. We've recorded a few episodes here and as you're as you're talking about you know that you use the word quit. I haven't used the word quit for you because quit to me means something a little more final. But it didn't use that word, but I didn't hear the final. Right. So I'm glad you haven't shut the door. 

Wesley Chu:

I'm fairly confident, like, at some point, I mean, that I'm going to go back to it. It's been such an important part of my life for so long. And in fact to this day, especially with my writing, I'm always thinking about it. I'm always thinking like when I've watched UFC and MMA fights I kind of know I understand what's going on. I might break things down and I and when I select when I go okay, I just saw what he did there with that with a spin kick and that was that actually really cool. So there's definitely still love for it there. 

I think maybe moving him around when my kids get older I start trading with them. I think I would love to do that right now. My oldest is six. My youngest is three, but I can absolutely see us going to school maybe when my youngest is five and we just kind of start doing it with the family because martial arts is a great family affair.

Jeremy Lesniak:

Where can people find your books and tell us more about the books if you have a series you know, like, so help us know where and what to buy?

Wesley Chu:

So I'm best known for a book called The Lives of Tao. It is my debut novel, The Tao and I overcharge to ship a trilogy set in the same world. And that is out in any bookstore, Barnes and Nobles will have them in any independent bookstore, they should have those books. But the new book that I'm most excited about is called The Art of prophecy. 

It is my epic fantasy debut. It's an Asian martial arts fantasy, and it's kind of my love letter to Wu Shan movies. So like,  when I moved from Taiwan to Nebraska when I was five years old. And the basket back in the 80s. There's like five Asians, okay, and like…

Jeremy Lesniak:

I can't imagine two places on earth that are more opposite in Taiwan, in Nebraska, you're only the third person from Nebraska that I'm aware of having ever spoken to.

Wesley Chu:

I will say this, Nebraska in the 80s was a great place to grow up. It really was I mean nobody wants to do Stranger Things. And they're thick riding bikes in a cornfield with, like, you know, it's like, how you how you grew, I grew up back then I loved it. Right, where the dirt bike tracks and everything. But, at one point, if you didn't get out of Nebraska to start an agency, the world, but for me, when I was a five year old kid living in the 80s, in Nebraska, we were like supporting immigrants. And we were, it was all about integrating like, okay, we are immigrants, we want to integrate with society here. 

And so the sample is old samurai Sunday movies for my connection to my people, so my history to the old country. So, as a five year old, you don't really know better, so I just kind of glommed on to it. And so it really instilled a lifelong love of, like, Wushu, the concepts of brotherhood and honor. I just loved it. And that was the type of book I wanted to write my entire life. And, to be honest, I wasn't ready. I mean, I've published 12 books, and I think it wasn't until I published 11 that I finally said, “Okay, this the story's been sitting in my head for the past like, well, God knows how many years but finally after like I hit the times list and everything and I've done well for myself where I sit down and go, okay, I'm now ready to write this book. So, yet the art of prophecy is like it's a retelling of the chosen one trope. It has many kinds of aspects of like, we'll share movies but its tone is in a western style storytelling. 

So it's not quite like how sometimes it's quite anime, it's not quite how the Chinese way of storytelling is different from the Western world. So, I definitely am more of a western style but I'm also using a lot of inspiration from you know, from like, Romance of the Three Kingdoms from like no other the authors the legend movies and Once Upon a Time in China like some stuff from [00:48:54-00:48:58]

Jeremy Lesniak:

Now here's a last question before we turn it back over to you to close us out. Writers seem to be quite divided as to whether or not they ever want to see their books become movies. Where do you sit? 

Wesley Chu:

I think any writer who has the opportunity for an option shouldn't feel that way and that's kind of a no brainer to me. I'm so all my properties have been options. So, and the word art saga, which is the series that's coming out, starting the art of prophecy, was actually an option before I finished the book. So that's been in development for a while and it's actually pretty far in development. I usually don't like to go into any more detail than that because the thing about Hollywood is that they're an option for gotta get. 

But that's actually the easy part: once you get the option you have to go to 100 ways for this option and down to binding before we finally get the agreement to actually have a purchase price or like a pilot order. So let me say any writer who has the option who has the opportunity to get an option should seize it. When I was younger, my thing was just give me the option, I don't care what you do with it, just give me, let's just make a movie. It was a TV show. And, now as I'm, like a “pro, or a veteran” at this, I turned down a lot more money to get to work with the people I want to work with. 

Because at the end of the day, it's like, I can just go for a larger option, price, whatever. But what gives my properties the best possible chance of success? I turned down a very big movie deal that I would like to make to go to TV. And part of that was because, you know, the odds of getting a TV show mate are infinitely better than a movie. It's hard to make movies right now, you know, also the showrunner that we had tagged with the co-executive producer for Lucifer, the director they had attached as it was, no, she was on the wire. 

She didn't know real time she did like, altered carbon, like she did. She did the show that I love to watch. Yeah, you know. And so once you see the booster for, for the word saga, I mean, his current hit is the boys. Oh, and look, this is a team I want to work with. 

I don't know, obviously, I love money, who doesn't love money, but like, what's your priority at this point is you want to, you want to get a maid, and you want to get a maid with as much as your vision as possible. 

Because even though you're ducking until there's a showrunner adapting, which means he's the, he's the main writer. So it's not just your baby anymore. It's a group effort. But you still want your vision to come as clear as possible to the screen. So that's what you do. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

I look forward to seeing these things come up on screen, in addition to being awesome, and hopefully. Well, this has been an awesome conversation, and this is your chance to close us out. So what, you know, obviously, it's a martial arts audience. What do you want them to know?

Wesley Chu:

Hey, guys, keep on training. I will say, If you love martial arts, and it's your life, it's a lifestyle, then definitely. You treat it like it's part of your life. I think one of my regrets is that when you love something enough, and you make it part of your life, where it is something that you do on a day in and day out, and it makes you a better person, and it's a stronger person, find room for it carved room for. 

And I did some writing as well . When I was an aspiring writer, I said, I'm going to do this as a professional, which means even though I'm not getting paid, and I'm writing after hours, I'm writing in the middle of the night, whatever. It is important enough for me that I'm treating it like a job. 

So I must write at least two hours a day or whatever. And part of me wishes that I did the exact same thing with martial arts even though I had to be to make room for other things. If it's something you care about as new loves as a part of your life. You got to make room for it. So that's probably one of my regrets. What did you think?

Jeremy Lesniak:

Good stuff, right. I want to thank our guest, Wesley Chu, for coming on the show. I want to thank you for listening. And for the support that you've given to us over the years and hopefully for the continued support. Head on over to whistlekickmartialartsradio.com. See the full show notes. Yeah, your podcast player, it gives you some of it doesn't give you all of it. You're going to find photos, videos, links, transcripts. 

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