Episode 741 - What Makes a Great Martial Arts Movie
In this episode, Jeremy and co-host Andrew Adams take on What Makes a Great Martial Arts Movie.
What Makes a Great Martial Arts Movie - Episode 741
Do you like solving jigsaw puzzles? If you are, it’s your lucky day because not only do Jeremy and Andrew talk about martial arts movies, they will do it over solving a jigsaw puzzle! In this episode, Jeremy and co-host Andrew Adams take on What Makes a Great Martial Arts Movie. They give us their take on what makes a martial arts movie fun. Listen to learn more!
After listening to the episode, it would be exciting for us to know your thoughts about it. Don’t forget to drop them in the comment section below!
Show Transcript
You can read the transcript below.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Hey, what's going on everybody? Welcome. This is whistlekick Martial Arts Radio. And today, Andrew and I are going to answer the question definitively for all time, what makes a great martial arts movie. If you're new to the show, thank you for joining us, you can find all the things that we do here at whistlekick at whistlekick.com, including our store. It's one of the ways that we monetize all this stuff and paying the bills, you can use the code, PODCAST15 to save 15% on a shirt or you've got a hat over there, we've got some other things after you're gonna see one of the things in a little bit, we're gonna do something kind of fun and different on this episode. So stick around if you're listening.
When we get there, you might want to watch this one. Who knows, maybe if you want to go deeper on probably not this episode, maybe other episodes, especially our guest interview episodes, you can visit whistlekickmartialartsradio.com, we bring you two episodes each and every week, in order to connect, educate and entertain the traditional martial artists of the world. If that is a value to you, yeah, you could buy something, you could also share episodes with people. It's one of the ways that we grow the show.
We also have a Patreon with exclusive behind the scenes content, bonus merchandise, all kinds of cool stuff. And you can find out more at patreon.com/whistlekick. Okay, guys, think for a minute. already. Let's set the table. And then we can take the next step. I think you said that this question came in from a listener.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah, this question. topic suggestion came in from Mark Warner. And his question is an email to me to send. You guys should discuss what makes a great martial arts movie. What makes a fun martial arts movie? And for those that don't know, Mark and I are both huge fans of the Best of the Best. And we think it's weird that you're not. So, if you don't think best of the best is a good martial arts movie. Let's discuss what you think makes a good martial art.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And I think it's really interesting that he phrased the topic the question that way, what makes a great martial arts movie, what makes a fun martial arts movie? Because I don't think there's another genre except possibly horror, where you can have those distinctions. You can have a terrible movie, that's still a fun movie. Yeah, that's fair. I don't tend to I don't see that in, you know, romantic comedies or action films. But you get something like, Evil Dead, which you know, not really a horror movie, but I don't do conventional horror movies. It's not a great movie. It's a really fun movie. It's got a cold following. And that's probably the best way to think of a fun, not great movie is the cold phone.
So what we're going to do now before we discuss this, before we discuss this, we have to do this puzzle, available whistle kick.com with the martial arts radio logo, we're gonna put it together while we talk. Why? We thought it would be fun, why not? Why not? So we're gonna move the camera around, and some of it might get edited out, I don't know. And then we're gonna start putting together a puzzle. And we're going to talk about this when we're done. We will stop putting together the puzzle. We'll get back in our chairs. And we'll say goodbye. We will probably not get the puzzle finished. Because it's 520 pieces.
Andrew Adams:
Maybe we're that good.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Maybe we are that good. Okay, so I think anybody who starts thinking about this, the idea of a great versus non great fun versus non fun. You know, we're thinking of examples. Is that where your mind goes?
Andrew Adams:
Oh, yeah. I think that's a good place to start.
Jeremy Lesniak:
But we've talked a lot on this show about martial arts movies, over the years and different martial arts movies and why they're great or terrible, or both, depending on who you're talking to, you know what I think? And I'm curious if you agree, we don't all have the same expectations of a martial arts film.
Andrew Adams:
Well, I think that's true. And I also think our views on how we see films there depend upon when we see them.
Jeremy Lesniak:
When you think of the martial arts movies that you love, do they have anything in common?
Andrew Adams:
I mean, this sounds so cliche, but there's martial arts in them. To me there's, you know, some sort of fighting doesn't necessarily have to be street fighting or tournament fighting, necessarily, but there's some sort of physical interaction between characters in the movie.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Sure. But that there's got to be more to it than that for you. Right? There's got to be martial arts movies that you don't like movies with martial arts that you don't, I suspect you probably have a wider, acceptable standard for martial arts movies.
Andrew Adams:
Do you only say that because I like Best of Best?
Jeremy Lesniak:
No, I'm not. I'm not just saying that. I'm saying that because I think you watched so many of them in the 80s. That you have a, you're normalized to those to a certain degree. And so I'm not saying I mean, yeah, we can poke at Best of the Best and, and have fun with that for a while. But at the same time, there's a serious element in there. You've seen so many more than I have.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah. You know what, to me what I like in a martial arts movie, as well as, I like that. The things being passed on to the student or the person learning is not magical, like into, like, you know, I'm gonna I'm gonna catch some flack for this, but I actually don't know, like, one of the things that I don't like about the Karate Kid is there's this magical move at the end that he just does. And it's like, gonna win. And that's not realistic. Right? You know, I liked that in Karate Kid. Daniel had to actually train, he had to like work and learn things.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Do you like realism?
Andrew Adams:
Yes.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Is it fantasy?
Andrew Adams:
Yes. And one of the things I liked about best of the best is that they actually trained, they weren't, they realized in order to get better, they had to actually work at it. And there wasn't some magical technique that they could do. That was just gonna all of a sudden make sure that they could win. Yeah, I liked that about it.
Jeremy Lesniak:
It's interesting, because what I like in a martial arts movie is fantasy. I want to see things I can't do. Oh, interesting. Very different. You know, like my favorite martial arts movie is Crouching Tiger. I can't balance on treetops who have tried it and haven't gone wild.
And, when I see a training montage, it's just like, I can do that. Angle work. And honestly, that's part of why I dislike the Best of the Best is because I see things I can do. Much better. Interesting. Alright, this thing in that film?
Andrew Adams:
Okay, I get that. I like that realistic part of it though. To me. Because it makes it real. I mean, it's not a fantasy. Now having said that, are there more movies that are fantastical that I have enjoyed? Warriors of virtue? I liked that movie. I thought it was fun. But I don't think it was enjoyable but I think that goes in the realm of fun and not great.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Use of the whistle kick logo like across the top there.
Andrew Adams:
So, I think that makes it different from being a fun martial arts loving and a great to me a great martial art to me.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I think I'm trying to reconcile this because I've never heard two people discuss the subject quite in this way. I mean, we're seemingly in the exact opposite place on the subject. But I'm sure if we walked there. I know we've watched movies. We've been on the scene. We did those how to fight episodes and there were plenty of times where we agreed. Like we both hated red belt
Andrew Adams:
I didn't, I wasn't a super fan. I'm not one that uses the word hate often but I get what you're saying we neither of us were big fans of that movie.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And if you look at that, that's a movie that is realistic by including the major flaws that I have with it. And if someone wants to dig more into that, you know, we've got that episode. I forget what number it is, but how to fight. What's his name? Oh, I don't remember. It's a complex. His name…
Andrew Adams:
His real name is [00:10:50-00:10:52]
Jeremy Lesniak:
Okay. All right, alright. I'm just trying to think of where to go.
Andrew Adams:
So this to me, what makes a martial arts movie is that, you know, working towards getting better. For example, here's a funny one not funny. I, a number of years ago, maybe about a year or two ago. past guests of the show, Ian Abernathy did a video on what his favorite martial arts movie was. You want to take a guess as to what it was?
Jeremy Lesniak:
You'll never get it? Braveheart?
Andrew Adams:
Conan the Barbarian.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I was closer than you thought I was gonna be.
Andrew Adams:
You are not wrong, I will admit you were closer than I thought. And his feeling was because he had the same sort of criteria as me that you have to work towards getting better at something and there were scenes in the movie where he was not good at sword fighting.
And he stood out on the cliff working how to, you know, manipulate his sword better and work towards getting better. And he, you know, physically worked at becoming better, as opposed to learning some magical technique at the end. That would just beat the bad guys.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Do we think we have all the edges? They were pretty close. But they're all right.
Andrew Adams:
So I think to me, that's what makes an enjoyable martial arts movie. There's our corner. We don't know which corners which. But that's okay.
Jeremy Lesniak:
We don't. And I intentionally did that. So these two are the left side. These two are the right side you can tell by the orange or the yellow. Sounds good. So it could be me. Let's guess this?
Andrew Adams:
Yeah, we'll figure it out as we go from there.
Jeremy Lesniak:
There obviously has to be conflict and there has to be character development, there has to be some random progress. And that's that's the case with I'd say every movie not just a martial arts movie. If we don't see that kind of character development somewhere along the way, it's hard to relate because, you know, instinctively this occurs in movies and books and you know, you want the characters to get better as you go through.
Andrew Adams:
I'm doing the black, by the way.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Maybe there's an element in there whether it's fantasy or let's say practice, conventional possible, Fantasy versus possible. Okay, the development has to be relatable. We've got to see something in those characters that we can see in ourselves. Whether we're talking, you know, chameleons fat character and Crouching Tiger or…
Andrew Adams:
Sure. This goes on that side. Right over there. And I think that I do right, right. Some sort of something relatable makes a difference. I think it makes it so that it's more relatable.
Jeremy Lesniak:
If it's relatable, it makes it more relatable.
Andrew Adams:
Yes, that is exactly right.
Jeremy Lesniak:
My algebra, two teachers rolling nicely, she's not dead. But she wouldn't be because you've just used the identity property.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah, yeah. But I think if you can relate to the characters, it makes it more real to you. And that's not to say that you can't like, you know, bring up your idea of Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon. That's not to say that you can't relate to those characters, even though they can walk on trees and you can't.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Have I mentioned I'm not good at puzzles?
Andrew Adams:
I have mentioned I really enjoy puzzles. So then I don't say I'm good. Is anyone really good at puzzles? I don't know. But I enjoy them. And they seem to do well. If I was doing this by myself, I'd already quit. Oh, really? I don't like puzzles. Oh, my goodness. Why are we doing this? The last? The last seems like it fits. It doesn't. Let me see. There's it's that doesn't fit. That's correct.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I did a Harry Potter puzzle up on the table. It took three months.
Andrew Adams:
It was Harry Potter, and you just didn't enjoy the subject matter?
Jeremy Lesniak:
I don't know. No, I like Harry Potter. It was all before the house crest.
Andrew Adams:
Gotcha. So where else do we go from here?
Jeremy Lesniak:
We've got a couple elements that I think we're in agreement on: there has to be the character has to develop the skills have to develop? And there has to be something that is relatable whether it is the character development or the skill development.
And I suppose, because we're talking about a martial arts movie. If the martial arts style was relatable, right, like we talked about red belts, it seems like that movie has a bit more fanfare in the BJJ community. Okay, then in the broader community, because they see something, there's another element of themselves, that person's training when I'm training.
Andrew Adams:
Well, I think I don't want to say red belt as a bad example. But the fact that there are so few BJJ movies, I think that makes a difference. In this particular case.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I would agree.
Andrew Adams:
But I totally get that I actually got two pieces together. Yeah, I got a lot together.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah, I know. You're killing it. I'm not.
Andrew Adams:
So I mean, I think that that makes a difference too. I mean, I will also say when I was a kid, I studied Gōjū-ryū, karate and…
Jeremy Lesniak:
The same piece twice. Could it be almost?
Andrew Adams:
And I loved that the person in the movie was Mr. Miyagi. Chōjun Miyagi is the founder of Gōjū-ryū. So that was like, oh, and then when they finally got the third movie, and Daniel started to learn kata, he started learning which is a Gōjū-ryū kata. So I was like, hey, look, this movie is all about me. I mean, not about me, but my martial arts style.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I see something in there that I do. I feel seen, you feel represented?
Andrew Adams:
Exactly. Absolutely. And that for me made a difference? So, there's something to be said for that as well.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Okay. Now, the topic at hand is not what makes a good movie. What a great movie. And I feel like the things that we're talking about are qualities of good movies. I don't know that there's, because almost every movie is going to have something relatable, some kind of character development. So what sets that apart, I would say, I want to see something unique. But something greater than the sum of its parts, right? Like we talked about Karate Kid, and that's the example I go to, because it shouldn't be as good as it is. Okay? Say more. With the exception of Marina, the acting is not very good. The choreography is not very good. The dialogue, the writing, it's, it's all okay.
Yeah, you know, I'm not gonna point out anything and say, oh, this is terrible. There are some scenes in there that I'm not particularly fond of. But when you put it all together it's pretty good. Yeah. All right. I hear what you're saying. And then if you consider and there's something to this that I'm having a hard time defining where you are at, and I guess it has to do with the relatability expectation. You Watch Best of the Best back in the 80s. Yep, I didn't. Yeah, where I'm at and where movies are are completely different.
Andrew Adams:
And I did mention that you know, earlier that I think when you watch these movies does make a difference in how you will view them. I mean, this is not a martial arts movie, but if you have gone on record as to say you did not watch The Princess Bride. Yeah, as a child. And when you finally watched it, you weren't like you were, I don't get what all the hype is about. Any took a couple of watches to maybe be like, Okay, I kind of get it.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Well, the second time I watched it, I watched it trying to imagine I was, you know, 14 years old. Which from what I gathered was the target demographic. And it was a completely different experience.
Andrew Adams:
And I get that. So I think you're right, you know, these martial arts movies can be skewed a bit as to when you watch them.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Also, not even close on your puzzles.
Andrew Adams:
I wonder what people are really thinking when they're watching.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I wonder if they've just said, the whole intention of this was that we would have some people who would listen and say, maybe I'll watch this one, we might have the exact opposite effect.
Andrew Adams:
We might have people that started watching. They're like, maybe I'll just go listen to this.
Jeremy Lesniak:
How do I zoom in on Andrew? He's put all of this together. Jeremy's connected literally four pieces. I've got two pieces of two that I've done.
Andrew Adams:
For those that are just listening. 12345678 I want to know once
Jeremy Lesniak:
Nobody's hiring me to be on their puzzle team if that's the thing, because it's probably a thing.
Andrew Adams:
Let's talk about what? Because we come up on the show all the time. The movie best of the best? Yeah. For you. Like, honestly and sincerely what made that movie bad for you?
Jeremy Lesniak:
There wasn't anything that made it good. Okay, I can't point to anything and say, I like how this was done. I like how this was done. I like how this was done when I look at everything in there. To me, it is exactly the sum of its parts, which scores pretty low.
Andrew Adams:
I have one whole side by the way.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I've connected a few more pieces as you take pieces away makes it a little easier. My randomly binary search tree nerdy computer method works better.
Andrew Adams:
That's fair. So your opinion, which Mark and I both know what's wrong? Best of the Best had no redeeming features whatsoever.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Not for me. Interesting. Okay. See it compared to karate kid because I can say almost the same thing. The dialogue was not very good. The writing was not very good. The acting was not very good. The martial arts were not very good. For me, it lacked the relatable element.
Andrew Adams:
Okay, did you not and one of the things we mentioned as helping out making a good martial arts movie was character development. You don't think there was character development in the movie
Jeremy Lesniak:
Things could have gone differently at the end there. I don't want to give it away in case people want to watch it. They should. They should not watch it. You watch that movie, and you're screaming at your television. Don't hold it against me. You can hold against Andrew though. Okay. Think the big stuff goes right here. This might actually go here.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah. And one of these is up top and one of these is down below. I haven't figured it out yet. Which I'll get there. I'm almost there.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Oh, yeah. You know, you know, the relatable part could be Karate Kid is about an individual. Best of the Best is about a team. Hmm, good point. Yeah, I spent, I had far less experience being on teams as you can. And quite a few of those team experiences were not positive. I'm used to being solo. Interesting. Okay. You're used to playing in bands, which is a team.
Andrew Adams:
And remember, a team is not a team if you don't give a damn about one another.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I'm assuming that's a line from that movie.
Andrew Adams:
From the Best of the Best.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah. I'm assuming that James Earl Jones says that.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah, absolutely this goes there I don't think so. Not quite No. All right. What are some other martial arts movies that you personally have enjoyed that you would say are good, maybe even great martial arts movies
Jeremy Lesniak:
The Jackie Chan stuff, the jack, you know, Rumble in the Bronx, those first three domestic releases. What was the rumble in the Bronx? The one that was like a police story for them got renamed. I know what you mean, I don't know the name of it. But we can take a Rumble in the Bronx. I remember that one decently. I saw it in the theater. It had something it had an unexpected quality in that the choreography.
I didn't really know Jackie Chan's movies, I have a friend who did. Yep. And there was a fun element to the choreography that I'd never seen before. So it made it new. You know, there are times where we watch a movie, or read a book or whatever. And we like the rerun, we want to see that thing again. But generally speaking, we don't want to see the same thing done just by different people. We want something new there. People will say, you know, like, I've seen this movie before.
Andrew Adams:
Okay, I think a perfect example would be the remake of The Karate Kid with Jackie Chan. It did not do well, I think partly because people wanted to see what they were used to. They didn't want to see the same old thing done with just other characters. Right? Let alone the fact that it wasn't the Karate Kid. It was the Kung Fu kid.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Right? That part didn't bother me that much. So you know, I really liked that movie, because there were plenty of things that were derivative in a way that I think a lot of people would look at and go, you know, whatever.
Jackie Chan's role went so much deeper emotionally than the original. Did you know that that portrayal reminded me of Robin Williams in Goodwill Hunting. Okay, it was to me that that's what it reminded me of.
And so I liked it. But you know, I don't think of that as a great martial arts movie. Yeah, I think of it as a pretty good movie that had some martial arts. Okay, that's fair. So is that another piece we need to add in that the martial arts helps move the story forward? That without the combat
Andrew Adams:
Without that conflict, that physical conflict,
Jeremy Lesniak:
It doesn't quite work.
Andrew Adams:
I get that. Yeah, I could be on board with that statement.
Jeremy Lesniak:
We're working on that corner. For those watching, I'm working the corner. I mean, sorry for those just listening. Work in the corner. Yeah, I think you're right, the physical training of getting better has to move the story along.
Andrew Adams:
I think that that does make a difference. I don't think this goes up here, but I'm gonna bring it up again.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Give it a shot.
Andrew Adams:
Oh, I didn't think it did. But it did.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I wonder how many people are watching this? And they're like, you guys are missing data on there.
Andrew Adams:
He put those two together, but they don't clearly don't go together.
Jeremy Lesniak:
That sort of try that piece
Andrew Adams:
Oh, yeah. What are we missing?
Jeremy Lesniak:
I'm not talking pieces. Oh, by the way, it is much harder to think and do this than I would have imagined.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah, I'm glad that we decided to do this on this episode where it's just kind of fun. You know what, this is kind of like a fireside chat.
Jeremy Lesniak:
But without the fire much harder to find, but like an inspirational element. Yeah, I think the best movies, the best martial arts movies make you want to train or do something. And we know that from the fact that if we take karate kids, karate kids make people want to do martial arts.
Andrew Adams:
That is true. We have a lot of guests that have mentioned that movie had an impact on. They're training and wanting to train.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And another one that is held up quite often as a great martial arts movie that also had that effect. Enter the Dragon. Yep. Versus other Bruce Lee films that do not have as much of an impact. Mm hmm. Yeah, I think that's got to be part of it, it makes you want to train, makes you relatable, it's relatable.
It's got something that you haven't seen before. If we think of, like 20 jobs, early movies, people loved those movies, because they hadn't seen somebody move like Tony before. And I think that was maybe not critical, but it was important. It was an important element. It's something that I think it's relevant.
Andrew Adams:
I think so. Do I get that? Okay. I think that we have a piece in the wrong place. Maybe, maybe not. That does not go there. Yeah, I think I think we have a piece in the wrong place. Because I think that one goes there. Maybe?
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah. But now we need something to connect. And there's not that guy. Well, we could also be missing a piece.
Andrew Adams:
Ah, that's possible. Okay, this part is going to be really fun for the listeners. And why are you going to move the whole thing? No. I'm going to count this side. Inspiration.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Relatability? Just need to find more pieces. Five more pieces.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah. Could it be any of these pieces? Yeah, it could be assumed that it is like that one. Assuming this side is correct.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Becomes that one? Yeah. Okay. So three more pieces. Does that fit?
Andrew Adams:
No.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Okay. Maybe it fits down here.
Andrew Adams:
Possible?
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yep. Okay.
Andrew Adams:
We're missing. We are either missing some pieces, or we have some in the wrong place. Oh, hey, that makes sense.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I made a valuable contribution to the process.
Andrew Adams:
Jeremy, I'm so proud of you. Okay.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And if that goes there, then we have the whole edge. Yeah, we're definitely got the outline. That's the hard part. So you can just call it good from here.
Andrew Adams:
I think this is the easy part.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Absolutely. I think this is where we should call it. Yeah. Because I think I think we're done there. So let's not sit back and chairs. I can scoot over to you. Yeah. SoI think it's interesting that it wasn't until we had till the end that we came up with the inspirational part. Yeah, I think that makes a difference. I think that's probably what separates the good from the great. Because I think of something like the first Ninja Turtles movie.
If you were a certain age, and you watched it at that time, that was a pretty important movie for you as a kid. It had a lot of things. It had things you hadn't seen before. It had fun dialogue, maybe not, you know, create dialogue. There were some things you hadn't seen before. But it lacked a quality that made people say, You know what, I want to go train. And I think there are a lot of ways that inspirational art could go. It could be you know, you're larger than life. You know, you want to be a superhero, whatever, whatever. Yes. I think that's it. Anything else?
Andrew Adams:
No, I think I think whether we answered the question or not, hopefully this was fun.
Jeremy Lesniak:
It was fun. It was different. We're always trying to do different things. And if you have suggestions on different things we can do. We want to hear him doesn't mean we'll do them. We want to hear if you like what we do, you could buy this puzzle. It's available at whistlekick.com And you can use the code PODCAST15 to save 15%.
That was only like 20% of the reason I wanted to do this. The other ad was because I've been carrying around this puzzle for like a month looking for a way to do something with it that was moderately worthwhile because you heard I'm not going to just do a puzzle by myself
Andrew Adams:
But what you do if they want to buy this exact puzzle, the one put together by us faithfully together then we can sign it and if you buy that one specific.
Jeremy Lesniak:
We can get that puzzled you and put a frame on it already have some do like a donation to a charity somewhere.
Andrew Adams:
Who knows?
Jeremy Lesniak:
That's going to cost a lot of money because that means I have to do the rest of it. But if you want to do all that whistlekick.com and buy a puzzle or something else hat shirt, whatever. Patreon patreon.com/was.
Okay, we've got the family page for all the things that you can check out to support us like sharing episodes and all that we give you a ton of suggestions. Whistlekick.com/familyseminars.com teaches seminar school. Yes. Until next time, train hard, smile, and don't have a great day.