Episode 743 - Martial Artists are the Reason Martial Arts isn't Bigger

In this episode, Jeremy and co-host Andrew Adams take on why Martial Artists are the Reason Martial Arts isn't Bigger.

Martial Artists are the Reason Martial Arts isn't Bigger - Episode 743

Why isn’t Martial Arts bigger in the US? What do most Americans think of Martial Arts? In this episode, Jeremy and Andrew Adams take on why they believe Martial Artists are the Reason Martial Arts isn't Bigger

After listening to the episode, it would be exciting for us to know your thoughts about it. Don’t forget to drop them in the comment section below!

Show Transcript

You can read the transcript below.

Jeremy Lesniak:

Hey, what's going on everybody, welcome. You're watching or listening to an episode of whistlekick Martial Arts Radio. Today, Andrew and I are addressing our mutual belief that martial arts would be bigger. But we're not for martial artists. Scandalous hang around this one.

Andrew Adams:

It's not gonna ruffle any feathers,

Jeremy Lesniak:

They won't, but it could get a little spicy. Maybe. If you're new to what we do, check out whistlekick.com, where we've got everything that we do from our projects to our products. And you can find the product to the store that you like, use the code PODCAST15, save 15%. This show whistlekick Martial Arts Radio has its own website. 

So you can dig into all the episodes that we've ever done. Whistlekickmartialartsradio.com, you can also sign up for the newsletter, you can join our Patreon, patreon.com/whistlekick share episodes with folks. 

Anything that you're willing to do helps us out. And you want the entire list of all the things we ask you to do if you find value in our content. Whistlekick.com/family Got it. All right, martial artists. So the reason martial arts isn't bigger. 

Andrew Adams:

You brought this topic up again, you said it puts us on the list, I want to do an episode about it.

Jeremy Lesniak:

I have talked about this from the early days of martial arts radio, I believe wholeheartedly. I'm going to loosely call it Western Culture, but really acknowledge that my experience is as an American living in America. 

If you look at broad participation in the martial arts, globally, it is roughly 250 million people. If you look at participation in the United States, it is less than half that percentage, though the majority of which are children. 

Andrew Adams:

So, I would agree with that for sure. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

Why? Why does that happen? Anybody does anything. I'm gonna put on my consultant hat for a moment. Every action that we take is based on value exchange, we've talked about that before, we believe inherently whatever we do is better than the alternatives. I go to class, because it's better than not going to class. I don't go to class on days that I'm sick or injured or whatever. Because it's the better choice. I do this over that because it's a better choice, etc. A big part of value comes in with belief. And I believe that Americans believe martial arts is for kids. A thing that is done in movies is equivalent to MMA. And that most of them are stupid, because I've heard so many martial artists saying terrible things about other martial arts. Every one of those beliefs is rooted in what martial artists say that the public hears?

Andrew Adams:

Yeah, I think with the exception of the kids, one. I don't think other martial artists are saying martial arts is only for kids. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

There are a lot of schools for whom the majority of their marketing is about kids. 

All right. All right. Are you? You may have turned me around on that. That is true. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

I see. Now there are exceptions all over the place. And I'm not saying that this is anything here 100%. One of the subjects we've tackled that is less about this, but I think it is that the mindset is the same. 

So many people drop out after earning their black belt their first degree black belt, because schools and media have conditioned us to believe that that is the standard and once you reach that you're done. It's a dramatically diminishing rate of return on effort. So why bother that I got my black belt? Don't you want to get your black belt? We have a black belt club. Yep. Black Belt being…

Andrew Adams:

A finish line goal and once you reach your goal, you're done.

Jeremy Lesniak:

Yeah, there are plenty of schools out there that put the word Black Belt In the name of their school. You are conditioning people that that is the goal, you are a factory and it gets to that point and then you go off and do something else. So put that aside. Children, MMA, what else did I say? And it's movies, and media. We, as martial artists, have the ability to push back on these things. All it would take in, let's say let me address all of these. Okay, so let's take the kids' thing first. The belief that martial arts is for kids. I believe it is rooted primarily in the way a lot of schools conduct their business, because frankly, it's easier to get kids to try a thing than adults to try things. 

Andrew Adams:

And it's easier to get kids because parents are often looking for things for their kids to do while they're at work or whatever. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

Absolutely. I'm not suggesting that the way a school goes about getting students has to change dramatically. So it's marketed to everyone. That's a silly way to market. I understand that I'm a marketing consultant. If you are marketing to everyone, you're marketing to no one. But it wouldn't take much to also acknowledge classes available for kids, for adults to all the things that benefit children. Focus, movement, teamwork, teamwork, respect. Let's just take a look at social media these days, adults need it more than kids and kids are doing a lot better at it. Just want to throw that out there. We can convey this message. 

We can have more family classes. We can have more adult classes, we can do this. But we collectively don't necessarily want to do that. Starting a program starting any martial arts program is difficult. And if you don't have enough adults in your adult class, it takes a lot of energy to grow that I'm not suggesting it doesn't. I'm not saying that where we are, is the result of not putting in some trivial amount of effort. I am saying it is our responsibility. It is our fault. We as martial artists have gotten here because of us. 

So there's the kids. Media. The best example I can come up with went into the Badlands. I did an episode where I unfortunately predicted exactly what was going to happen. If we want more martial arts, television, and movies that accurately reflect what martial arts is, this is a show we need to support. We need to watch it, we need to share it. We need to say nice things about it. We need to encourage our non martial arts friends to watch it. What we cannot do is sit back and go. This show is stupid. I hate it. That's not real. Bla bla bla bla bla and then complained that there was also martial arts content. Yeah, exactly. That's exactly what happened. What did they make of the three seasons? We have three of the stars on the show. I really enjoyed it. It was very well done. Was it everyone's cup of tea? No. But what I saw was so many people trashing it, that what should have been the obvious easy demographic? I didn't watch it. 

Andrew Adams:

They didn't participate. And that's not the only example. If you look at the show Warrior. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

Warrior has struggled despite having Shannon Lee behind it. That show has struggled and we've had one or two people come on. And again, same idea. That show I think did a better job because it better represented the non martial arts elements in the show. Yeah. And the fight scenes are absolutely phenomenal. But again, that show has struggled, I think because it's on Showtime. 

I think if that show was on HBO, it would have been a wholly different experience. But if you asked me and so what that leaves us with without more, let's call it authentic. That's not quite the regular, more meaty martial arts, movies and television. We are left with the general public seeing martial arts as it's represented in more broadly viewed things when we see Scarlett Johansson character in a fight scene in Avengers or Black Widow, they look at that and they're like, okay, this is martial arts. 

When we see something like John Wick, which is, you know, held up in our space as a wonderful martial arts. You know, I can make that case, yep. The rest of the world sees it as violent. And it creates conflicting messages. So if somebody just goes nice if a martial arts friend says, you should check out John Wick, it's got some great martial arts. And one parent is watching that. And the other parent walks in and sees that, and then the next day they have a conversation about enrolling their kid in martial arts. That's not going to add up well, 

Andrew Adams:

And I would also say, if you are an adult, and you see, for example, you will go back to Scarlett Johansson and Black Widow sees that success, martial arts and I'm an adult and I want to learn, I want to learn that, then they go to their local martial art school and see people just punching and kicking, it looks nothing like that movie. There's a disconnect there.

Jeremy Lesniak:

As well as the inverse, I would never be able to do these double backflips, that I think are part of a martial arts curriculum. So I don't try it. Perfect proof how many people say I have to get in shape before I can start training? That's something that I think every martial art school or has heard will say get in shape. Welcome to class. 

Andrew Adams:

Yep. I heard that there has been this scenario happening the last couple of years where a lot of students didn't train because they were not allowed to. And I have had I know of a blackbelt student friend of mine who has said, I would like to come back to the dojo but I just don't feel like I'm in shape enough yet. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

That's a whole other subject, but it is sometimes proof that even for people within the martial arts, we have built up these expectations of what martial arts can and cannot be isn't is not that are not reflective of the reality. In most cases we've had the subject. We've addressed the subject a number of times in at least two episodes specifically about it. MMA as a martial art isn't a martial art, etcetera. Just to quickly move forward. There are plenty of MMA fighters who I consider to be traditional martial artists. And then in my opinion can be trained with a nod to tradition…

Andrew Adams:

A traditional mindset. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

It can be okay. But as we have watched the largest MMA fight promotion that UFC, it's not disputed, go grow in social reach. We have seen a very obvious movement to take the playbook from professional wrestling, to create characters and personas, personas, that people feel an emotional attachment to good and bad, good and bad. 

And that has led to the most famous MMA fighters sadly, being at least outwardly terrible people. And again, if you have people who do not understand what martial arts is, what traditional martial arts is, and it's a at least a decent cross section of the population, because of the number of people who when they asked me what I do, and I tell them about whistle kick, their first response is oh, so MMA. 

It's not one out of 100 people, it is far more than that. That tells me that there's a good chunk who misunderstand. Why is that our fault? Because we don't have a competing promotion. We have karate combat. There are some things out there that are absolutely wonderful, but we tear those down so they don't get bigger and better. Number one. 

Number two, there is a strong contingent in the traditional arts that love MMA. I enjoy watching it at times depending on who's fighting in context. I especially really love amateur amateurs. Same thing, being an amateur can be so much fun. Yeah. But we are holding up certain things. And the best example I can think of is Conor McGregor. I think it was his last fight when he was using his shoulder which was absolutely brilliant. If I'm looking at this strictly as a fighter, if I'm looking strictly at the combat aspects He's absolutely brilliant. 

Yet how many traditional martial artists who have traditional martial arts schools talked about and shared video clips of that reinforcing to people, that this person who is, I'm sorry, a terrible human being based on everything I've seen of him out of the ring, and maybe it's a persona. We don't know. 

I don't know what that is. What's that is that the publication portrayed is not being I'm not being signaled that this is a character and fake. Whether or not it is I don't know, like the assumption has to be that it is Israel. Other people believe it's real. And so they see a person who teaches karate to kids talking about a person that they believe to be terrible, doing something interesting and creative. connecting those two dots and going, I don't want my kid at your school. I don't want to train at your school. I don't want to tell my friend who's interested. Oh, I have a friend who teaches they're just going to be quietly backing off.  And what was the fourth one? 

Andrew Adams:

Media, MMA. Kids, I should have written it down. Okay, there was something I don't remember. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

That's okay. Can we rewind? 

Andrew Adams:

We can rewind.

Jeremy Lesniak:

And I think that's all right. Because if we, if we look at it, from an 800 foot view, it all comes back to allowing others outside of our world to fill the space in our world. And we don't fill that space because we are fearful of what others in our world will say. The amount of flack anyone gets for posting anything about martial arts, specifically video. Here's what I do. Here's how I do it. There's a gentleman on Tik Tok, I'm not going to name his name. 

And he started posting videos of him doing some scrambled work with sticks. In none of the videos I've seen, does he claim a particular rank? Or expertise? Or title or time training? It is him demonstrating what he is working on. 75% of the comments are hateful. Interesting, interesting and not surprising. Now, if that goes on, is somebody who sees that who wants to also share their journey? Going to be more or less likely? 

Are there people who are responding that are not martial artists? Yeah. But should not 100% of the people who are martial artists be supporting this person practicing wherever they are, whatever they are doing, however good or bad they are. If someone tells me, hey, I trained today, I don't need to know what you trained how hard you trained, why you trained for me to be supportive of that it

Andrew Adams:

Still made it a good day for that person.

Jeremy Lesniak:

You don't know where people are? Oh, that was the fourth one we got there. I knew we would get there. If I talk long enough. This consistent argument is wrong. This is right. What I do is the best. What you do is crap. If you are someone who is interested in martial arts, and I've watched this happen so many times, “Hi, I'm interested in doing martial arts. What should I do?” Because they've been conditioned by the media that this style is better than this style. But they don't, they don't really know. 

They have an assumption based on what they've heard and seen that there is a discrete difference. And that that difference is the most relevant thing to suss out. I have said we've done at least one episode on this subject. If the response to that question is not, tell me what you are looking for. You are wrong. If what martial art should I do is met with an actual answer by an actual martial artist. You are wrong.

Andrew Adams:

Yeah, but my fallback is always if there was one best style in the world, everybody would do. That's the only one that would be there. Yeah, if this thing is so much better than everything else, Why is everyone doing that thing? 

Jeremy Lesniak:

There are so many more reasons. So many more factors in someone's selecting a martial arts school, then what style is more important. And if you disagree with this, you're part of the problem. If you say, style X is the only thing you should do because of your body type, or it's the most effective on the street, or whatever. What if that person doesn't have that school available to them? What if it is taught by someone who will not jive with? What if that student doesn't care about those things? 

All it does is set them up for distancing themselves from the arts, trying, not finding what they want, and not trying again. Or inevitably, what happens if those questions are public on social media? Because I've watched it, you should do this. You should do this. You should do this. You should do this. The last time this happened? I think it was like the eighth person to comment. What are your goals? How often do you want to train? Where do you live? I think well, do you want to travel to get to class?

Andrew Adams:

I mean, these questions are really great. And I've always been a strong advocate of there's no such, you know, obviously, I'm being a part of wisdom. There's no such thing as the best style, right. But I think, more importantly, it's not about the style, and it's about the instructor, I think you can find a great instructor in any martial art. 

And learn from that person and enjoy your experience. And you can find a bad instructor in any martial art, which will turn things off. So it's to me it's more about the person you're learning from and less about what you're learning.

Jeremy Lesniak:

And understanding who those instructors are. I have people ask me all the time, because I live in rural Vermont, and we don't have a ton of people. But versus population. I'm asked frequently. I'm interested in where I should go? What should I do? Who should I train with? My answer isn't always the same. Okay, where do you live again? Alright, where do you work? Oh, you work over here. So you're kind of close to this person who has these classes. And I've worked out with you with the gym, or we've had social time together. 

And I've got a sense as to your personality, I think you do really well with this person over here. Or, you know, oh, my kid. You know, I know you're really close to this school, and they do have a Kids program. But your kids are kind of rambunctious and they don't seem to be quite as tolerant of high energy kids, I think this instructor over here would be a better choice. It has to be that detailed, it has to be that nuance, and it can't be this person over here has, you know, their lineage is much weaker. And you know, their barber is lower, or, you know, this person over here has much higher rank, and so they must be better at this point. 

So when I look at that stuff, especially the collection of all four of these reasons, I get really sad. This is one of the things that we're railing against. This is why we're silo agnostic. This is why we don't put out content that says, this is the right way, this is the wrong way to train, or to do this form of this technique, or here's 75 ways to defend against, you know, finger to the eyeball. We don't. Suddenly, for more, you got to watch to see that one. I don't see the point. I don't think it adds value. I don't think it makes people's lives better. I believe. 

People get better, they become better versions of themselves from training. I also believe most martial artists believe that. Hmm. I think you're probably correct. I think a large portion. I don't know that. I'm going to say most I think a large portion, at least will say that about someone training, regardless of what their training, how they're training, that the mere pursuit of that Betterment is what matters. And I would like us to consider where the world is not the martial arts world but the world world and recognize that as an industry, I have a greater opportunity to affect change on the world in a relatively short period of time than anything else. 

Andrew Adams:

And I think as an instructor, you could endeavor to foster that change within your own group. Of the people that commented bad things, one, and then the other. You're not going to know the answer to this question. 

But you know, how many of them run their schools and are in charge? And how many of them are just a black belt in a school? Just commenting bad stuff on other people? If the instructor of that school could foster a better way to think of other martial artists, it trickles down? 

Jeremy Lesniak:

It does. I just want to see everybody trained because I want people to enjoy training. And I get really bent out of shape. When I see people doing something, I love taking action. That stops other people from doing something that I love. If you love martial arts, it is your response to your responsibility to at the very least not negatively impact the desire of others to train.. I'm not saying everybody has to get out there and do the sort of things that we do. Or run a school that is super open and positive. With the very least just don't be a jerk

Andrew Adams:

No, no, I think that's good. Don't be a jerk. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

Thanks for reading. Thanks for listening. If you have feedback, always welcome to hear it. Always open to hear. There we go. I got myself a little riled up there. Towards the end. Jeremy@whistlekick.com, if you have feedback for Andrew, maybe something for Q&A episode or topic guest suggestion, you can email him to Andrew@whistlekickmartialartsradio.com. Our social media all over the place @whistlekick. We have training programs, not how to punch and kick but how to get stronger faster, or have better stamina or better flexibility. That one's even free. You can find those at whistlekick.com What's up is not free. Use the code PODCAST15 to save 15% Until next time, train hard, smile and have a great day.