Episode 687 - The Incomplete Violence Conversation with Jason Brick
In this episode, Jeremy talks about The Incomplete Violence Conversation with former guest, Jason Brick.
The Incomplete Violence Conversation with Jason Brick - Episode 687
How much of our training can we really use in a real-life violent scenario? In this episode, Jeremy is joined by Mr. Jason Brick, a former guest, and they talk about why the stuff that we spend the most of our time and energy on, in terms of self-defense and personal safety, is actually not going to be used by most of us.
After listening to the questions and answers, it would be exciting for us to know your thoughts about it. Don’t forget to drop them in the comment section below!
Check out Mr. Jason Brick’s episode here.
Show Transcript
You can read the transcript below.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Hello, everyone and welcome. This is whistlekick Martial arts radio episode 687. Today past guests, Jason brick is back to talk about what we've titled, The incomplete violence conversation. What does that mean? Well, you're gonna have to stick around to find out. Who am I? I'm Jeremy Lesniak. I'm your host for the show. I found whistlekick. Why? Well, because I love martial arts, I love traditional martial arts, and traditional martial artists, probably like you. And so that's why we do all these things that we do here at whistle kick, what's whistlekick? What do we do, but at whistlekick.com. That's where you'll find all the things that we do, like our store. And if you use the code, PODCAST15, that's going to be 15% off something like maybe a hoodie, like this one that I'm wearing here, or maybe some sparring equipment, or meaningly training program, we got a bunch of stuff over there. So, go check it out. It's also the place you're gonna find all the other things that we're doing. Because we are a lot more than a podcast in a store. Whistlekickmartialartsradio.com is the place to go. For everything related to the show. We bring your transcripts and photos and videos and links and all kinds of good stuff. For each episode that we do, we bring it to a week, why love to connect, educate, and entertain. And if you find value in that, we've got a lot of things you can do to show some love back, we've got a patreon patreon.com/whistlekick.
Okay, where we give you even more stuff, you want to know who's coming up for a guest only place to find out, do you want extra episodes, audio video. We do that there, too. Depending on the tier, we've got all kinds of cool stuff from a mastermind to get books for free. Stickers is cool, check it out. patreon.com/whistlekick, we'll take you up the whole list of all the things you can do to support us, whistlekick.com/family. It's free, it's not linked anywhere. And we do even throw in bonus stuff, kinda like a mini Patreon. You're not gonna find anywhere else, you got to check it out. We update it every week. So, Jason brick, and I talk a lot about a lot of things outside of the show. Since his first time coming on, I should have looked up what episode number was I don't remember. But you know, Google's pretty easy to find. You can look it up. We've remained in contact. He's a great guy. We are aligned in just about everything when it comes to martial arts and our missions to support martial artists. And so he has a new project coming out. And he reached out and said, hey, can we talk about this? And I said, absolutely. And what we did, we didn't just talk about his project, we talked about everything related to why this project needs to exist. And where does it come from? What am I talking about?
Well, you'll find out soon enough. So stick around. My conversation with Jason broke about violence and the incomplete aspects of most martial arts conversation on the subject. Hey, what's going on? Everybody? If I did my job, right, you got a brief intro before we got here? Who knows? Maybe I didn't. Maybe this is the first part. I don't know if I got it. There are a lot of things going on. This is not the type of episode we usually do, which is why I'm excited about bringing back past guests. What episode are we on?
Jason Brick:
As in, it was 2020, kind of mid 2020? The number I couldn't tell you,
Jeremy Lesniak:
I couldn't tell you there, I should have done my job and actually looked that up. Brought back Jason Brick, we're going to have a conversation today about violence. And why the conversation around violence is both incomplete and in my opinion, grossly skewed to the most, the least relevant parts. Is that a fair assertion? Absolutely what we were talking about that's a good summary, what we're gonna talk about, right?
Jason Brick:
Exactly the stuff we spend the most of our time and energy on in terms of self defense and personal safety, is the really sexy stuff that most of us will never actually use. Whereas most of us do use a number of other skills. A lot of professionals are calling them soft skills on a regular basis. And sometimes we use them in a way that we don't notice.
Jeremy Lesniak:
This is one of the reasons that I want to espouse the virtues of martial arts. Yes, self defense is in there. But what about all the rest of the stuff? Do you need to be more flexible, stronger, balanced, resilient in the face of an overwhelming stressful world? Every day? You're probably not going to get jumped by six guys with dicks every day. Statistically, that's never going to happen to you.
Jason Brick:
And if it is you need to really seriously rule them in some of your laboratories.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah. Yeah. So that's if that's the thrust of the conversation, where Do you want to start?
Jason Brick:
But let's start with one of the MY GO twos when I talk about martial arts in their benefits, is, if you ask serious martial artists, what's the most important physical self defense skill you have learned and the entire time of your training? You're gonna say falling skills. I think you haven't been in a fight in 20 years, but you fall down twice a year, whether you need to or not. Right, in terms of physical self defense, that falling skill is going to save your life, prevent serious injury, maybe extend your lifespan, more than every bit of the kicking, punching, stabbing and shooting that you're ever going to learn.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Because self defense is more than just what you do when you are attacked. It is defending yourself from the world.
Jason Brick:
Yes, from injury. And if you want to go really far, you know, get really far out there, you could consider jogging or former self defense because we're middle class middle aged people live in the suburbs, chances of us actually being mugged or assaulted or an assassin coming after is very low. But that heart attack diabetes, certain forms of cancer, that cardio workout we get from our martial arts training is going to be way more effective as a form of self defense than any of the actual hands on stuff, especially if we're being smart.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I would totally agree. Why don't we talk about stuff? I think you said kinda at the top like, it's the less sexy? Why is talking about things that never happen? Sexy and talking about things that actually make people's lives better? Not sexy? You know, I don't.
Jason Brick:
I'm not a good enough psychologist to have a real strong sense of that, although it's absolutely true. You know what, I've thrown out a joke in my podcast a couple times, it's nobody's dropping $16 to watch a movie of Jason Statham not getting a fight.
Jeremy Lesniak:
It's true, right? Very excited.
Jason Brick:
And you can get into there isn't psychology about why humans are so obsessed with sex and violence, and sports. And one theory is that those are the three times in modern life that are true, that it's you doing your best with somebody else in the room. And you're going to find out shortly whether or not that best is good enough. But I don't know how much of it it is. It's a little Alpha Male for me, sure. There's a little bit of chess, nothing going on there. But there may be something to that, that, you know, the violence was fascinating with violence, because there's a test and a trial in violence that we don't see in the rest of our lives. Of course, our cultures, and not just Western cultures, but most cultures have. I want the word that's in my mind right now is deified, and that's not right. Fetishized, even maybe violence as a way of having solutions, you just look at the popularity of action movies versus movies about personal drama. And it's, we are fascinated with violence. And also, we are afraid of violence in a way that we're not afraid of heart attack, in the way that we're not afraid of having a less than fulfilling relationship with our family.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And normalize those things, because they happen. Yeah, all the time.
Jason Brick:
And that's kind of this broader conversation about self defense, protecting yourself. When we were talking before the show, I pointed out how many people listening to this program have read, say the Art of War or the Book of Five Rings? And chances are almost all of us, right? How many of us have read The Five Love Languages? How many of us have read The Four Agreements? How many of us have taken a class on mediation and active listening? Or go one step further? When was the last time you took a specialized seminar, on weapon disarms, or some other esoteric form of hurting people? And then was the last time you took a medical class?
Jeremy Lesniak:
That's true. It is massive. I don't know if I want to. It's definitely a hole it's a gap in the broader conversation whether you want to terminate martial arts conversation to self defense of violence conversation over for purposes here, we've talked about it as violence. But we threw in with the title of the episode. But it's obviously a lot more than the nap. Because if we gave some really good examples about rounding out knowledge via books or classes. And, you know, there may be some people saying, well, you know, yeah, I learned kung fu but I've also learned some healing practices. You're not the norm. You are the exception, not the rule. And while there are plenty of us who find value in that the conversation as an industry is not about that the majority of martial art schools don't teach. Avoidance does escalate. They do not teach. Okay. So once you've injured this person, here's how you make sure they don't bleed out when you call 911. In fact, the majority of schools teach the exact opposite. Get out of it. Don't beat me when the police arrive. And yeah, we could probably have a really long conversation just on that one aspect. And I'm not suggesting that there aren't cases for each side of that conversation. But the fact that the conversation is so lopsided, Warren's conversation itself.
Jason Brick:
I absolutely agree. And one thing has been kind of interesting when he had me on before it was talking about my shows if his family on the block where I take my experiences, and martial artists and father and a journalist, and I interview experts, from every discipline, I can find about keeping families safe, and a through line from some of the stone badass again and again and again and again, was the importance of avoiding violence when you can, not just because bottom line, you know, you're an advanced martial artist, I'm an advanced martial artist, we step into a combat even against some 17 year old idiot, we have a nonzero chance of dying or going to jail forever. Absolutely. If we avoid that fight, we have a 0% chance of dying from that fight. And that's just how it is. And so it's not only good stuff, but also that if you are good at violence, you have a responsibility to avoid violence whenever possible.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yes, the only way I've said this before, the only way you win a fight is to avoid it. The only way everyone wins, right? Do you want someone to lose a fight? I mean, obviously, we all want to go home, but why not want that for the other person? Why not create an opportunity? Why let an acute situation, creative potential, potentially chronic condition, whether that's long term injury, death, prison, lawsuit, etc.
Jason Brick:
And I think that's a part of martial arts culture that is there. And you and I certainly both enjoyed it. But there's a fantasy of violence that we see in the movies we see on TV, if you play video games, role playing games, there's humorous violence, you know, the quickest way to a man's heart is through his back. You know, and we laugh at that, right, you know, martial arts, putting the fist into pacifism since his time immemorial, we make all those jokes. And we, you know, we've all learned a technique that just ruins the subject, and walked away from that kind of giggling like Beavis. That was cool, right? And we all do that. But there's a fantasy of violence within the martial arts community, that does not map in any way to how it feels when you actually have to be violent.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Violence is primal. And it is okay. That we acknowledge that. And it is also okay, that we exert energy to be beyond that, to go above that, right. Anybody who's had kids knows that children have a predisposition to solving problems. Physically, we might not call it violence. But when they're, you know, they hit, they kick, they bite, they push, and we teach them as they grow up. This is not the way to solve problems. And yet, for a lot of martial arts schools, and I'm not gonna say many or most but a lot. That's exactly what they do. problem arises, it has to fit into a model of violence and solving the problem with physical contact, even if it's non violent, it's still violent, because it still involves two plus people engaging in a physical altercation. And you hope Yeah, you know, nobody comes out of that really hurt. But what about the rest of it? So let's go there. What about the rest? What about some of these other words, we've thrown out there de escalation and avoidance, etc?
Jason Brick:
Absolutely. And these are, these are the important points. One thing you and I both studied at Kempo spent a fair amount of time and you know, you get up there in classes. Okay, I'm going to teach you what to do if a guy throws a right punch at your face. So, what about the hour before you throw a bunch of my face? You know, one of the things we can do is be there, can we use humor to de-escalate the situation, can leave the bar when things are getting ready. getting rowdy. Quite some time ago, I wrote an article about staying safe when you're traveling abroad. And one of the points I made was, how things feel. And what's dangerous is not dangerous in your neighborhood. You don't know what that is in Bangkok. You don't know what that is in Caracas. But the other people in the bar or the restaurant or the Market Square do. So in that situation, if you just kind of pay attention and you get a feel for the crowd. And if people start leaving, or people start seeming nervous, it's time for you to get in a cab and go home. Right?
Jeremy Lesniak:
We see this in movies all the time, but not with animals. Right now there's that scene in a lot of disaster movies, where all of the animals run by, in some movies make it dramatic enough to include animals that would typically not be friendly. You know, when you see the gazelles and the lions running side by side in the same direction, not from each other. But together. Something really nasty is going in the other direction. Yeah. And we don't tend to talk about that. Within our own species, the idea is, okay, if nobody's going over there, and you're a visitor to this area, you should probably not go.
Jason Brick:
Yeah, exactly. And in the book that I'm kickstarting in a couple of weeks, we'll talk about that in some detail later, I kind of divide these skills into four categories. And it starts with avoidance, sorry, not avoidance that's up starts with preparation, then awareness, then avoidance, then de escalation. And then finally escape. And these are five categories. And you can sometimes think of it as you know, a lot of martial arts have these concentric rings of responsibility and threat, right, where, if they're this far out, you got to watch their legs this far, and you start watching their hands, their elbows, etc. And you can kind of do that in the same way only often instead of in distances instead of time. And, for example, if you're traveling to New Town, you can hop on the local police reports, you can talk to a friend who lives in town, you can use Google Maps, you can use other reports into tools, and know which parts of town to avoid. Sure, sure. And that is as truly self defense and far more self effective self defense, than going into that bad part of town as a four three black belts, or strapping a gun on your hip because this bar might require a gun.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Can you run through let's take a common scenario. And you gave the example of a vacation. And I really like this, because I'm, I'm currently looking at taking some time off, and I'm evaluating where I go. And one of the things that I'm doing in the preparation stage is identifying certain countries that I could legally, logistically travel to, that I am not going to travel to. That's a pretty obvious one. But why not take that, let's take that example of a family vacation. And, you know, let's hit those stages, with the, you know, an analogy, a story, an anecdote that illustrates them for the people watching your list.
Jason Brick:
Absolutely. So let's say we're traveling, taking a family vacation somewhere, we decided we're not going to go to any of the the key places, you know, we're not going to do Disneyland this year, we're not going to do the Grand Canyon, we're just going to go to a city and hang out in that city and learn and feel get a sense of that city for a couple of weeks. And then the first choice is that we're in that preparation stage, and it starts with choosing a safe city. And then you use some tools, the US Department of Defense has a really good country, a security briefing that's free that you can get online. I like Australia a little better just because the US ones are a little more political. But Australia is either more neutral, or because I'm not Australian, I don't see the glaring political bias. It's one of the two. There are apps, there's one right now called Safe esteem. And they're coming out with a civilian version, where this data nerd who used to be an International Man of Mystery, runs, the numbers will tell you more in terms of numbers. How safe a city is compared to your hometown, for violent crime, for property crime, for health issues, like air quality, proximity of hospitals and things like that. So you can use these tools to find cities, and rate them. For example, I interviewed him for my show not too long ago, and he told me that St. Louis is more dangerous than Sao Paulo. And more dangerous than Mexico City.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Wow. Now, I never knew that never. We have this bias toward yeah, here we are being normalized. And not safe.
Jason Brick:
Yeah. And he didn't make it clear that that's in terms of violent crime statistics for a white English speaking person. Then it is also who knows the rules of St. Louis better than they know the rules of Sao Paulo or whatever. Maybe that gets skewed. But the point is that you can find this data, you can find this information, and then make a decision about where you go. So we're gonna avoid St. Louis. Right. And taking a look at things we're going to go ahead and choose a koala because it's a relatively safe town. There was some civil unrest a couple of years ago, but it's settled down and they don't. The weapons laws in Malaysia are Are you serious, and so you're not likely to actually get stabbed. I mean, you can always get stabbed on purpose no matter where you are, but you're likely to accidentally get stabbed. Right? And you look into those stats, you find out the property crime is fairly serious. But violent crime is very low, especially among tourists. Because you know, the cops know where the money comes from. And so they're going to crack down on people who are violent, who are victimizing tourists. So you do that research.
And then now that you know, you're going to Kuala Lumpur you go take a look at specialized reports and wall them for you go the Lonely Planet website, you call a buddy of yours who was there for business a couple of years ago, you'll watch a couple documentaries, you find out, you know, find out what hotel you're gonna be on you talk to the concierge and find out, you know, what does he know. And you do all these things, this is all preparation, that is legitimate self defense if you end up in a hotel in a rough part of town, all of a sudden, your danger goes way up. If you decide you absolutely want to go check out this one tourist attraction all but it's in a neighborhood that's been suffering civil unrest extensively for the last six months. That's also a bad idea. So this whole preparation stage, which a lot of people don't think about, which I've I've not yet been in a martial arts school that taught this is a form of self defense, that absolutely avoids even the possibility of certain kinds of violence in certain situations.
Jeremy Lesniak:
The only way you can avoid the violence in an area is to not be there. Truly, we talked about non zero and zero. That's the only zero way I avoid violence in St. Louis, is I don't go to St. Louis. That's just too bad because…
Jason Brick:
I like St. Louis. But yeah, I go to a nerd convention there. There's a tabletop role playing game convention there every year, and I go there. I mean, COVID means that it hasn't gone for a couple years. Yeah. Yeah, I wish I'd known that about St. Louis before I just went and stayed in a random hotel. Nothing happened. I lucked out.
Jeremy Lesniak:
So you should prepare more?
Jason Brick:
Exactly, yeah. Now that I'm armed with that knowledge, no pun intended, I prepare. And then that preparation goes next, you know, the next is that preparation is you know, you're going when you're going to go there, and you decide where you're going. What other preparation can you do? And that includes, you know, your EDC or your modified EDC because you're in a foreign country. So, the loss of difference. And even little things like you did your research, you find out that Kuala Lumpur is low on violent crime and high on property crime. So nobody's carrying a purse. Hmm, you're not wearing a fanny pack, you've got your dummy wallet, and you've got your money in your sock. You gotta know, you decide not to use your $700 iPhone to buy a $150 Mobile phone there in the country. And just those little things that prevent it because even property crime, although property crime is not dangerous, can escalate to danger if something goes wrong. So anyway, those are some examples of how we can use preparation to avoid violence and avoid ever. Well, avoid ever getting to use that really cool technique we learned last week.
Jeremy Lesniak:
What was the next phase? He talked about preparation. And then we go to awareness.
Jason Brick:
And I feel like awareness is where a lot of martial arts schools do spend a little more time that situational awareness has that act, the cool feel, start talking about the Cooper color codes, start talking about the OODA loop and all those things. That tactically aware mindset. Which I'm not a huge fan of, because it's exhausting. Yeah, Rory Miller has a really good riff on this, about, you know, the yellow stain condition, and you're tired by the end of the day. But if instead you are just mindfully aware and curious, you're not only spotting the bad guy, but you also see the rainbow and the puppy. And it's a much nicer headspace to be in but it also means that you see the danger coming.
Jeremy Lesniak:
It's a skill set that can be trained, yeah, you have that idea that you look for the puppy in the rainbow. But the potential situation is coming over here, right? And that comes from like anything else that is exhausting. Training it in and graining it and letting it be part of who you are. And there are ways to train that, you know, it's a little bit outside the scope of what we're doing here today. But you're right I think a lot of martial arts schools will talk about this even if it's as simple as sitting so you can see the door.
Jason Brick:
Yeah. And there's a number of games you can play because you know a lot of a lot of my interests right now with the show and with my own experiences, how to raise safer kids. And so there's games you can play with young kids or with your friends with your martial arts buddies when you go for a beer after work is a really great time. Little things like it was Nick Hughes who plays a game with his friends where you come up by your buddy. Cover their eyes and point to the exit. And if he can't, he buys the next round. Because you know, because you should know where the accidents are.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Sure, but also a note of caution. Yeah, you may want to disclose with your friends that you were playing that game. Yes, yes. And that game should not involve especially if it is longtime trained martial artists. There's probably a good alcohol free game.
Jason Brick:
Yeah. Nick definitely comes from that 80s and 90s military tradition where a lot of love things happened. A lot of things went wrong, but it's an interesting game. One you can play with your kids is to sit down. Okay, if I wasn't here, who would be in this room? Would you go for help? Hmm, you know, identifying who would be helpful. You can play on your own almost and play with yourself. But that's a different thing. But you can play on your own. Yes, sit down in a room and just okay. Who in this room is the most likely to be a problem? Hmm. Right. And that's, that's recommended by Gavin de Becker and his book, under two seconds, where he trains his staff to identify the most likely problem in the room, and overwhelmingly, not actually going to be a problem. But that gives you the leg up if that guy turns out to be a problem and gets you in the habit of just kind of looking at everybody checking new people as they come in, you know…
Jeremy Lesniak:
And take the opportunity. Maybe you close your eyes and describe them. Yeah, you identified the most likely threat. But what if you leave this space first? What if they leave first and create a situation outside? Could you actually describe them? What if there is chaos later? And you don't know what's causing it? Can you describe that person? How many people have said you know, I saw this car and it was suspicious. And they can't even tell you the make model license plate. And they're barely sure of the color. Yeah.
Jason Brick:
That's another game that I've played with my boys and some of my friends, adult friends of the nickname game or just guys. That's high heels. That's ACDC. Because their T-shirt, right. And then you can even close your eyes and try to recite them. And it gives you that one key detail that makes you more aware, a little more able to invite some of this off, just gets into that idea of awareness. You're paying attention. And then as you're watching those, you'll notice that, you know, barely keeps touching his jacket pocket, as if he's reassuring himself that something's there. Alright, or you see the AC DC is talking to high heels in a way that's making her uncomfortable.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Or somebody leans into somebody else. whispering, but they're staring down someone else. Right? There's eye contact. Right? That's a common Barwon that I've watched. If I see that one, I'm probably out.
Jason Brick:
Yeah, exactly. Or, and then if you're walking around, you're, you know, I swear I saw that guy in the parka. And that guy in the hoodie at the last place? We stopped to eat, huh. And, then are those other tours, who happened to be doing the same walking tour that I bought a map for? You know, at the hotel? Are they? Are they locals looking for trouble? Oh, yeah. You know, and then once you have that awareness in place, then you can choose to, you know, avoid injury through rapid flight. You can choose to, especially in, in developed nations that can often work just to make eye contact. And let them know, hey, I see you and then they'll go by that someone else often in developing nations that is more likely to bring everything to a head. It's a cultural thing.
Jason Brick:
And a police presence thing. But do you have those plans and ideas for what you can do if you see trouble? And often, especially, you know, from my point of view, as a parent, either I'm responsible for small lives, or I'm responsible to get home to those small lives. Yeah, I'm out. But that awareness again, and again, that's self defense in a surer way. And to my mind, a more responsible way, than all the kicking in the punch in the stabbing in the shooting.
Jeremy Lesniak:
There is no situation I can think of where we're aware that what's going on is a liability. Now you have too much time you could prioritize awareness over I don't know, something more tangible. Hold on, let me know what size shoes you are wearing? Right? Like that's obviously a poor use of time and energy. But knowing what's up, yeah, nobody's gonna argue that, so preparation awareness, what's next?
Jason Brick:
And then there's avoidance. Okay, and that's, um, there's a problem that is essential. isn't happening. And you're leaving before the situation develops. And that's that out of here. That's those two guys whispering and looking at those two guys were whispering in the barn, we're standing up and leaving. That's the hey, we're, we're visiting the Alamo with our kids. And there's protesters coming in this way. And there's cops coming in this way, we're gone. That's all of those. Basically leaving in one way or another, and making the choice to leave. And this is one of the places that I feel like, our culture and martial arts can often fail us. Because especially early in your training, there's that I don't have to leave. I've had training. There's that sense that maybe has more power?
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah. It's an ego response. Yeah, it's, in my opinion, it's conflating avoiding violence with being fearful. I'm not afraid and you don't have to be afraid to not want to be in the situation. There are plenty of things I'm not afraid of that I don't want to do. I'm not afraid of going to the grocery store. I don't like it but I'm not going to go there.
Jason Brick:
I'm not afraid of butternut squash soup, but I'm not going to eat it. If I can avoid it. Right? Is that simple?
Jeremy Lesniak:
Right? There's a whole there's a I would I would even say that they're not even on the same spectrum. Yeah, your bravery is one action, non action or or action avoidance however, you want to turn that second spectrum. Those are some very separate things even though they can overlap we're seeing similar times.
Jason Brick:
And I've there's kind of two stages in the life cycle of martial arts about this and the later stages the you no longer walk away from a fight feeling weak feeling currently you walk away from the fight, feeling merciful? Because it's like, do you have no idea? I'm just gonna go. And before that, though, there is that you feel the way you feel a little weak. But then ask yourself really? Are you walking into that fight? Because you're afraid? How much courage is there in hurting another person because you're afraid of the bruise your ego is going to take if you walk away from the fight?
Jeremy Lesniak:
What do you have to prove? Like if you have something to prove why do you have to prove Yeah, it's something that I see it's very easy to see. Based on the content that martial artists post on social media, I've noticed a lot of it on tick tock like you can really tell whose egos are intact and whose aren't. Yeah, based on how they respond to critical comments.
Jason Brick:
Yeah, or how many critical comments they bring out. Like, I for a while there, I kept getting into stupid fights with internet strangers on the Martial Arts Committee on Facebook. Yeah. And the number of times I'm like, I would say words almost exactly like that. Every minute you're spending running down somebody else's art is a minute, you should be spending getting better at your art.
Jeremy Lesniak:
We made a shirt that said shut up and train. Yeah, exactly. Shut up and train him. There's absolutely nothing. This is a whole tangent that I'm sure you and I could go down. The audience knows we've gone down this tangent quite a few times in different ways. But the idea that how someone else trains has zero impact on you. It's not worth your time. If somebody is spending their time worrying about how someone else trains probably means they don't actually train.
Jason Brick:
Yeah, exactly. Or they're worried that their training is insufficient. And they want to reassure themselves by telling themselves other training is even worse. You know, it's that same kind of psychology, I think that you get behind any other kind of jingoism, racism, religious prejudice, where you feel bad about yourself, but at least I'm better than that guy. And I got knocked out in the first round of the jiu jitsu competition the other week, but at least I'm not a taekwondo competition, because those guys suck.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Like that was sarcasm for those of you who don't know, Jason. Yes, exactly.
Jason Brick:
Except for you. I know you're listening. And I mean, you personal. I'm not kidding, kid. You probably just listen to the show. Again, kid. But, but yeah, that's that ego is the thing that we have to conquer in that avoidance stage. They've given themselves permission to leave. And if you get into a lot of the reality based self defense places, there's this and I think it's an important thread of giving yourself permission to protect yourself. Especially if they're classes for people who are not long term dedicated martial artists who don't have military police background, where you give yourself permission to hurt somebody who's trying to hurt you. And that's a barrier that if you don't spend a lot of time thinking about that in your daily life in your training, that is something to overcome. But the other side of that is people, you know, we who are studying violence, who are getting training in violence, we need to give ourselves permission to not use that give us permission to leave the situation. And it's not our responsibility to hurt the bad guys and punish the bad guys, it's our responsibility to be around to protect and care for our families. Totally.
Jeremy Lesniak:
It's interesting, as we're going on along this continuum here, what I'm noticing is the amount of effort that needs to go in to get the same result of remaining safe is going up, the more I prepare, that doesn't take a lot of work. But the avoidance that requires far more effort in preparation, and I suspect that it's going to keep going in that direction. So expect, so what's that three? So what's four?
Jason Brick:
That's going to be a de-escalation. That's when you it's, you've been engaged? And maybe sometimes that's what causes the escalation. Right, this shotgun wedding. But yeah, someone's there with you, and they want violence, and you don't want violence. I have a story that I sometimes tell about. I was in a situation where somebody who was drunk and aggressive was coming towards me for reasons that he thought were justified. And the backstory of that is, I was in a particularly bad mood that day because of some stupid stuff that nobody really cares about. And as he was walking towards, I put one hand up and said, think carefully. And apparently, my body My body language, because there was a small part of me that kind of couldn't use that. And I'm really glad it didn't go that way. But he saw that and he turned around and went back and said that I got in my car and I went home. But that is one kind of de-escalation. It's more violent and more aggressive. But sometimes you need to de-escalate by making a clear stance with your language with eye contact. That's not today, not here to…
Jeremy Lesniak:
Sometimes the animal rolls over and plays dead. Sometimes they look bigger.
Jason Brick:
Yeah, humor often works pretty well. Although if you guess wrong on that, it makes it much much worse. Self deprecating humor is usually this. Exactly. There's Phil, I forget his name. But this is an excerpt from one of his presentations. He's been doing the rounds on YouTube and Instagram lately, about when the guy says, hey, what are you looking at? Is it John? John James, from Southside High School Class of ‘97. Like, no, I'm not jumping ship, man. I thought I thought I went to school with you, man. I'm sorry, can I buy you a beer, right? And all of a sudden, it's all taken care of. There's a story that will be in the book by one of your guests, Alan Burris. And I won't, I won't give all the details. But using a bar, and there's this big mountain of a guy with a bunch of military tasks kind of getting, and things are starting to escalate. And the guy said to Alan, man, you got to make more friends. And he walked up and presented, Aren't you my friend, man, thank you for your service. And if you correctly identified a tattoo that was associated with that guy as a unit, and said You are I have respect for everybody that aren't we friends? And then the guy just smiled and had a couple of beers and ended? Yeah. And it's so easy to do that, if you are motivated to do that. Actually, easy is not right.
Jeremy Lesniak:
But it is possible. It's definitely simple if you understand the concept, and if you practice it. Right, one of the things that blows my mind about martial arts training is that there is no school out there that I'm aware of that doesn't recognize that utilizing your skills when you need them is different than when you are training them. Yeah, we all get that. Most schools seem to spend at least some time addressing that by creating artificially intense scenarios so that you can work through things and know that okay, maybe I'm not perfectly adapted to this adrenaline response if things get murky. But I've spent some time there, I understand there's a difference. Hopefully I'll fare better. But this is something that is relatively simple and 100% safe to do within the context of martial arts. And I do see it happen in some youth classes, but it's that it's practicing that de escalation, that verbal skill set of using humor, etc. And what's nice is you've given a couple examples That just about anybody could practice the whole. What are you looking at? That's pretty common. Yeah, having a can male and female name that you can just draw from? What are you looking at? Aren't you? John James? Oh, I'm really sorry. I thought you weren't. And I was. I was looking. I was trying to see like, you look like I haven't seen him in a long time. I meant no harm. My apologies if you were offended, boom. Okay. If it's not, John, if it's Susan, right, like you can you can have a handful of these just as you have a handful of techniques. And I'm sure you've got other stuff. Probably there's, I mean, you gave the example of allegories with the tattoos great episode. By the way, if you all want to go back. We practice this stuff. And it's fun. You know, how many of us like picking on our friends and making jokes at other people's expense? Here's a license to do that.
Jason Brick:
Yeah, exactly. And as Marc Macyoung makes the point that very often, violence comes preceded by explicit instructions on how to avoid the violence. You better or I'm going to whip your ass, huh? So gotta leave the bar. Apologize. Yeah, often people give you an opportunity to de-escalate. Um, interesting side note on that. I can't remember where I read or heard this. But it was in one of my interviews with one of the experts you know, these are, you know, long term decades in violence, martial arts or whatever recommended that the best place to get this training is to go take an improv class.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Completely agree. putting words together while you are stressed? Not easy to do. You want the best example that goes to listen to some of my early episodes? Uh, don't worry, I did that part out. But now, you can tell when we do video episodes. It's continual, right? I can find something to say that may not be perfect. But at least some saying something.
Jason Brick:
That kind of practice. And yeah, go go be a guest in a bunch of podcast, networks to any because we talk about pressure testing our physical techniques, whether that's, you know, doing it, you put on the gloves, you're hitting a little harder, whether you're using using the timing, or you do your technique, and then the next guy in line is right on top. Yeah. You know, all these different ways. You know, get in the redman suit, what have you depressor test those techniques, there are ways to pressure tests are de escalation techniques as well. And we shouldn't be doing that.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Totally, agree. All right. So there's de-escalation and escape.
Jason Brick:
And finally, escape, avoiding injury through rapid flight. Run, like, run like hell. I'm also including it in that way to create a small distraction. So you can get one that I've picked up from Jason Hanson, who was one of the guests on my show. He's a former CIA agent who has a brand around that is he keeps a $5 bill in his pocket. Yeah, it's very close to smoke bombs. It's a $5 bonus pocket. drops it on the floor. Hey, is that yours? It's money. Everybody's eyes follow Jeremy Lesniak:
Enough money that people will pick it up. You know, they're not gonna do it with a quarter, maybe not $1. But it's not so much that if you do it, you're going to feel resistant. Next, anybody says I will box to not get in the fight?
Jason Brick:
Any day of the week? Yeah, those eyes drop your feet. That's one example. In some ways, that kind of circles back to the preparation because you know which way to run a few escapes. Having a plan for if you're escaping when you have a four year old. And all the things are in mind. Right. And so that's the last one but all five for escape, go take a parkour class for a semester. Right? Because that's, you know, that's point A to point B as fast and as directly as possible. And I've actually been wondering why the police don't take parkour. I think that most police would get more benefit from a parkour class than from a judo class.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Sadly, as it has been explained to me by several people, and this is not meant to be an authoritative statement, but the time and the money allotted to any given law enforcement department for ongoing training. I worked with a firearms instructor. And I think by our third lesson, one one a month. By our third lesson, he said I had invested more time In my training than departments, at least in Vermont require across 12 months.
Jason Brick:
It is unfortunate. And part of this is 2022, the country's been spending a year having a really frank, very emotionally fraught conversation about law enforcement. But the amount of training they get, because they don't prioritize that training in their financial budgets is, you know, it is not the fault of the police on the ground. And I'm not saying that these aren't for the overwhelming majority, good people doing their best in a really bad situation, right. But if we want them to do the job that they deserve to do, we need to give them the training they deserve to have.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Our core is an interesting example. Because it is all of the things that you're talking about. It is preparation, it is awareness, it is de escalation. There are a lot of ways I did parkour for a few years, there are a lot of ways you can address a particular obstacle. You're not going to do the ones that are the most likely to result in your injury. Unless you've had a ton of preparation, and you've worked up to it right? You tend to think, Okay, well, here's this thing, I'm going to, you know, vault over in this way, and my feet are gonna keep going.
Jason Brick:
No, that's a good point. I had thought of it that way. But that's yeah, the way you address the obstacle is very much like de-escalation, you choose the easier path and move around it.
Jeremy Lesniak:
The way it was presented to me was a to b with the most efficiency of motion or economy of motion.
Jason Brick:
And that makes good sense. Yeah. So and that's kind of interesting that, you know, these five segments, you can take classes and all of these things. And, you know, if I were still running a school these days, there's a very good chance my black belts would be staring down the barrel of half a year and each of these disciplines, to get to certainly to get to Ambassador, you know, where to go out, take that stop the bleed training. I don't know how many listeners know about this, but it's up. Most of these training sessions are free. And it's a 90 minute two hour class you take at the community center, the way you took your first aid, CPR, and specifically, very basic trauma medicine, about how to stop major bleeding, and then get their biggest data, because it's a few years old now about how it is saving lives. Nice, it's I think something on you know, we know how to break and we should know how to heal them. And this is a really good example. And again, the organization behind it is making the training free.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Do you know the name of the organization..?
Jason Brick:
Stop the bleed?
Jeremy Lesniak:
Stop the bleed? Okay.
Jason Brick:
Yeah. Yeah, I think they have some funding from some other organizations, not the American Red Cross, or something like that. But yeah, you can go to stopthebleed.org. And find the class.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Nice. All right. My suspicion at this point is we've really opened people's minds up, you know, kind of a hallmark of this show, let's talk about something and get you thinking. So I suspect people are thinking you're probably relating these five stages to their own training. Or if they're an instructor, they're probably realizing, oh, you know, we spent a lot of time on this one, or these two, we need more time on this one, or these two over here. And of course, as always, if people want to follow up, if you want to give me your own feedback, if there's stuff that we want to tack on to this conversation, reach out, Jeremy@whistlekick.com. But you mentioned a couple times, there's a book. Yes, sir. I've written books. They're really hard. If I remember correctly, this is not your first book. So collectively, what is wrong with us that we keep writing books? And why did you want to write this one?
Jason Brick:
Yeah, so wanting to write a book is a whole other thing. There was a great flowchart about should I write for a living? And are you capable of being happy without writing for a living? Yes, don't write for a living. I suppose you should write for a living.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yes, it is very…
Jason Brick:
It is. And I, you know, I've made my living for the last 12 years writing one way or another. And there are parts of it that I really love. But also, there's a lot of time you spend just staring at the keyboard until you're up until your forehead bleeds. But in this case, I actually got help. And it came again from my show where I was interviewing these, you know, certified badass istm. Who, and again, and again, they were talking about the importance of avoiding violence. Yeah, how if you're going hands on, you screwed up nine times out of 10. And that gets this idea for this anthology that I'm putting together and the title is, there I was, when nothing happened. And what I've got is true stories and anecdotes from these advanced martial artists, police soldiers, bodyguards, and a few criminals, about times they use one of these skills to avoid violence. And we've got some alumni from whistlekick Rory Miller, [00:50:01-00:50:03]. And of course, you, Jeremy are going to be in it. And some other names, you might recognize Tom Callus is going to be in there. Steven Barnes is going to be in there. I'm Andy Murphy. The secure dad is quite…
Jeremy Lesniak:
Really going on.
Jason Brick:
Yeah, yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
We got my follow up episode about your, your, your judgment, but…
Jason Brick:
Well, yeah, that's what my wife tells me to. Well, we got 40 different people involved from very different. Most of them are in some ways a violence professional, but others are people who just had a very good story. My college roommate is coming back. And he's a Kyokushin blackbelt, who was in the Peace Corps, and a gangster tried to kidnap him at gunpoint. And he got out of that, by pretending not to speak Spanish. Even when the guy put the gun and said, will you understand better with a bullet in your head is like, let's see, though, no, nothing until the guy and so all these stories from people who 90% of the contributors could could have certainly had the skill set and the experience to walk into the violence and provide them an instructive opportunity for the person on the other side, but instead chose to avoid that fight. And we got a variety of you know, we got some that are about preparation, some of them about avoidance, a lot of them about de-escalation, because those are often the funniest stories, and some about escape, some about awareness. And these are, I'm really, really, really pleased and touched at the level of contributors that we have, you know, these are top guys and top women in the industry who want to contribute, because they also think that is important. You know, our industry and the publications around the industry don't pay enough attention to this topic.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I completely agree. And one of the things that we talk about both internally and publicly at whistlekick is the idea that if we struggle with our own internal conversations, that we should consider how that looks to people who do not train. If we're constantly arguing with ourselves, if we're constantly focused on only the most violent elements of what we do, does that foster interest in the next generation of martial arts? And yeah, my contention is no, it does not. So I think having a project like this that showcases the many benefits of martial arts, even restricted to a self defense lens that is not violent. Yeah. I think it is brilliant.
Jason Brick:
I don't know brilliant, but certainly necessary. You know, I'm not a very smart person. But I listened to smart people. And I remember what they told me. And after, you know, a dozen episodes, where very smart people who are at the tip of the spear about violence and violence dynamics, we're saying, you know, the best thing to do is not getting the tussle in the first place. I started to pay attention. And I think you're absolutely right that I'm going to use a bunch of marketing buzzwords, but brand as brand representatives for martial arts. Sometimes the way we behave in the conversations we get into, and even the things we come home really excited about, don't necessarily put us in the best light. I'm in my second marriage, my first wife had many fine qualities but we didn't work too well as a couple. But she got a blackbelt in Kempo, in Japan as a woman. So she's a very serious martial artist. And it took me about a year to adjust with my wife who is not a martial artist. Some artists in very different ways stop coming home talking about this brand new way to kill a guy just because he would like, gross. Why would you?
Jeremy Lesniak:
I don't want to put my hand there.
Jason Brick:
Yeah, exactly. Like, hey, I only grabbed my wrist. Right. But I think that, you know, the general public probably responds that way, when they see us carrying on. And so for nothing for for no other reason. But if we start this conversation, maybe we'll bring more people into martial arts and the world would be better if all of us were finger training, right?
Jeremy Lesniak:
That's a point that I hit all the time and the world will be better. How do I get this book? How do we get this book?
Jason Brick:
Alrighty, so we're going to put it up on Kickstarter, crowdfunding platform, and on starting on February 15, 2022. We are going to have the preview page up where you can click a button and get on a mailing list to get updates. I recommend you do that because we're going to have a really cool deal for the first 24 hours. This is something I've done with other Kickstarter books where for the first 24 hours, everybody who buys a book I'm going to give a book to a library. Oh, I love that. That's great. And just so get it, you know, get in there, get on the list so that you can be ready to know. And then on the 22nd, the kickstart is going to go live, it's going to run three weeks. And then after that, and for those who are not sure what Kickstarter is for books is basically you're pre ordering the book. And then we use those to pay the contributors to pay the What's that the cover design guy and all that. And then and then to do the printing, and we'll print the book on Sunday to make a book. It does publish the rising amount of money to make a book.
Yeah, but now you will have the link to the preview page there in the show notes. And yeah, absolutely come to it, take a look, we'll have some one of the nice things about Kickstarter is, once you get on the list, you start getting updates, I'm going to be sending some each day, we have some excerpts from some video interviews that I use, like Jeremy here, he's going to write something a lot of the guys just wanted to get on Zoom and tell the story sometimes over a couple of beers, and I'm transcribing those, but we'll have some excerpts from those interviews that go up. We'll have some other stories going in there. Some haiku. Yeah, right. There should be more of those like, there's no shit there. There were seven guys in the damn bar. What did I do next? Oh, anyway, but go there. And you can find it on Facebook as well. I'm active, especially in the martial arts community. And we're talking about there, a lot of authors are in that community. And yeah, you do that. And you can be right there part of the conversation is the books being created.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Awesome. I think for folks who are listening, watching, the last thing I ever do when a guest comes on, and they're pitching something, I mean, there's a pitch here. And there's a reason that it wasn't just a commercial right there, there's a lot of value here. That's something that's really important to me. But if you want conversations like this to continue, if you want people who have these stories to continue to tell these stories, once in a while, some of us have to buy the book. It doesn't exist in a vacuum. I'm gonna buy the book, you would probably have sent me a copy, but I'm still gonna buy the book on Kickstarter. Because I believe in things like this, we as an industry don't support each other well enough, because we're constantly sniping at each other. I don't just come on here and say, you know, we need to be you know, more, more coalesce, we need to be more supportive. I actually put my money where my mouth is. And I do support as many of these projects like this as possible. I'm just not usually public about it, because there's a fine line and I try not to cross it feels appropriate right now.
Jason Brick:
Well, thank you. And I think in terms of you know, the sniping whether BJJ is better than type one, though, and all that all that silliness, that the the core of this is something that we can all get off. You know, for all we talk, for all we fantasize, for all we giggle when we learn a really, really entertainingly violent technique. We do agree that we should not get into a fight when we can help getting in a fight. And that curriculum, I think, most schools should teach this more and more powerfully, and if at the very least, they, you know, had the book in their pro shop. You know, at the very least, you know, and to put on the marketing hat a little bit. Also, if it's there, and you're pro shoppers, they're on your desk, when you're talking to the mom or the dad whose kid wants to do martial arts, but they're a little worried about the violence. Everybody who's run a school or run a program has had this conversation. This is something that so this, we teach that, but this is what we also teach.
Jeremy Lesniak:
This is what we stand for. We believe in things. If we do our job, right, your son or daughter will never get an invite.
Jason Brick:
Yeah. And that's what we want. And you know, that's the irony of martial arts training, the more you train, the less likely you are to meet your training. Because we mentioned very early on about how there's a lot of self defense stuff we do that we never know if it's going to work. And a lot of that is just the way you stand in the way you walk. And the bad guy who is in the corner, deciding who to just who they're going to try to victimize. What was the study, there was a study of guys in the 90s where they had felons in prison, look at videos of people walking on the street. And yeah, and said, Okay, who would you who would you victimize? And they picked the same people. No matter your gender wasn't a factor. Race was a factor, size wasn't a factor, the inmate's crime wasn't a factor. They all pick the same people. The study also asked him to pick to identify the people, they would not under any circumstances try. And again, they pick the same people. And one of the great benefits of martial arts training is that after a while, you start to look and walk like that second group, rather than the first.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah, with you. Awesome, man. So Kickstarter, when do they have to search for something like, is there a direct link?
Jason Brick:
So we'll put a direct link there in the show notes. But you can also just search Kickstarter for there I was, and you should be able to find it. I doubt that there will be another book that starts with the words there I was. And if there is, this will be the one about martial arts.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I really appreciate you coming on. This is good stuff. Love what you're doing. Glad that we can connect in this way. And yeah, thanks for doing…
Jason Brick:
Thank you so much, brother, for having us on. I appreciate the support.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I hope you found some value in that conversation.
Jason Brick:
I did.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I enjoy talking about stuff. I like conversations where we go in these different directions. And it leaves me thinking, when we finished this talk, my mind was spinning. And if you've been listening to the show for a long time, you know that it's from a lot of that spinning that future episodes, future topics, even elements that are bringing with guest conversations come from. So I want to thank Jason not only for coming on and for putting together what he's putting together, but for giving me the opportunity to talk about and think about this stuff. Some more. For me, that's the value of the Thursday episodes. And I know for a lot of you, that's also one of the things that you enjoy. This is a good place for me to remind people we are not paid to play. I am receiving absolutely nothing for either Jason coming on this show and my contributions to the book. Nothing because I want to maintain that line of integrity. The truth, I hope that you will support him. I truly am going to buy a copy, sign up for a copy, whatever the proper verb is, with regard to Kickstarter to support the production of this work because I want more of us supporting more of us in the traditional martial arts.
Okay, I hope you will too. If you want to support us in the fact that we bring you these episodes and give you good stuff to think about and hopefully learn from patreon.com/whistlekick. Okay, we've got training programs at whistlekick.com, you could use the code PODCAST15 to save 15% the flexibility programs completely free 15% off zeros still zero. And if you want the whole list, whistlekick.com/family, my email if you've got guest suggestions or feedback or anything like that, Jeremy@whistlekick.com, our social media predictably at whistlekick. And that's it for now. So, until next time, next episode, next whatever, train hard, smile, and have a great day.