Episode 668 - Sensei Jonathan Kenney
Sensei Jonathan Kenney is a Martial Arts practitioner and instructor at Toragushi Martial Arts in Oakville, Canada.
It needs to be understood that although Sensei’s are people who have come before us, they’re still just people. And they’re just as much human as any student. Any white belt needs to be respected just the same as any blackbelt.
Sensei Jonathan Kenney - Episode 668
Nothing is more fulfilling than training Martial Arts with your family, let alone building a dojo with them as well. Sensei Jonathan Kenney was inspired to train for just one thing, to be with his father who also trained in Martial Arts. Eventually, the father-and-son duo opened multiple schools together while his mother and siblings followed suit. Presently, Sensei Jonathan Kenney, a virtual sensei as well, teaches Karate at Toraguchi Martial Arts.
In this episode, Sensei Jonathan Kenney tells his journey to martial arts and how important his relationship with his father was in becoming who he is today. Listen and join the conversation!
Show Notes
You may check out Sensei Jonathan Kinney’s school on their website at gojubudo.com or subscribe to their YouTube channel: ToraguchiMartialArts
Show Transcript
You can read the transcript below.
Jeremy Lesniak:
What's going on everybody? Welcome. This is whistlekick Martial Arts Radio episode 668. My guest today, sensei Jonathan Kenny. If you don't know my name, my voice, I guess we'll start with voice, if you don't know my voice. My name is Jeremy Lesniak. I'm your host here for the show I founded whistlekick a bunch of years ago. Well, you might want to know why. Why did I do that? Because I wanted to do stuff to support traditional martial artists. And that's why we do all the things that we do. What things do we do? Well, go to whistlekick.com and find out, we're going to find a store over there. And that's one of the ways that we cover some of the expenses. And if you use the code, PODCAST15 it's going to give 15% off anything you find in there. Whether it's apparel or protective equipment, or, I don't know, an event to a training program, we got a bunch of cool stuff over there. So go check it out. And we're constantly adding things. So, if it's been a while, now head on over. This show has a separate website, whistlekickmartialartsradio.com. We bring you this show twice a week. And our goal here at whistlekick with this show specifically is to connect, educate and entertain traditional martial artists throughout the world.
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I recently had the good fortune to talk to Sensei Jonathan Kenny. And we talk about a bunch of stuff. And the thing that I think was most apparent to me in this episode, was how impactful martial arts has been on not only what he does, but why he does it. Most of our conversation came back to his why. And it's something that I encourage people to find. What is your reason? Well, in this episode, we're going to hear all about Sensei Kenny's why. So here we go. Hey, Jonathan, welcome to whistlekick Martial Arts Radio.
Jonathan Kenney:
Thank you for having me. This is unexpected and flattering. I thought I was a nobody. But apparently somebody is keeping tabs on me.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Well, well, first, unfortunately, it's not too unexpected. Because you know, we did plan ahead, I didn't ambush you with a microphone. So that would be kind of a fun way to do this show, just creep around martial artist houses and just knock on the door and be like, hey, I want to interview right. Interview you right now.
Jonathan Kenney:
And that'd be very exciting. But of course, what I met was, we have a mutual friend that suggested that we get together which surprised me, which surprised me?
Jeremy Lesniak:
Well, you know, it's interesting, you say you use the word nobody. I could you know, kind of defend that and say, don't judge yourself, but I know exactly what you mean, in that. In the world of martial arts. If we look at celebrities, you're not a name that a lot of people are going to know, we talked about some, we talked about another name. You know, before we got rolling here a name that a lot of people know somebody who's been on the show. And I and I understand that. People are trying to push me out of that box. And I am fighting tooth and nail because I want to remain a nobody. Because it's easy. Even if we're going to call ourselves nobodies, that doesn't mean that we don't have an impact. And that's the part that I wanted to get to. You have students, you teach them, you change their lives. And I think it's important for everyone listening to know that the impact that we have as martial artists, even if we're not school owners or instructors, is so far beyond the potential impact of the average person. And I think we need to celebrate everyone in the industry and that's why we bring on such a mix. I guess.
Jonathan Kenney:
I couldn't agree more. It's one of the reasons why I feel that way to do it because I have such high expectations of myself and I have since the beginning, I have this insatiable crave to, to help more. I myself started when I was young 1986, eight years old. And I fell in love with the martial arts because of my father. It was my father who started training in an offshoot of Goju in 1985, and a year later, I watched him. We were at a trailer in the summer, and I watched him on the front lawn, doing the two. And I fell in love with it. I'm like, well, that's what I want to do. That's the rest of my life right there. I was locked in. I was like that was it for the rest of my life. So, I made my father from...
Jeremy Lesniak:
Do you remember why? What was it about? Did you look up to your father like a huge amount, and you just wanted to imitate anything he did?
Jonathan Kenney:
So, I have an answer to that. And I can only speculate that this is the truth. Because all these years later, it's like, how did I really feel and think when I was eight do I actually do accurately? Remember how I was feeling and what I was thinking. But I firmly believe that my father was a nine to fiver. And he was, it was almost like a typical family coming out of that generation where my father worked a nine to five job my mother was, was a stay at home mom. And when I saw my father do something that I thought that I could do. I fell in love with it, because I thought it was beautiful. And it was just, you know, just this exotic movement. But it was also an opportunity for me to be closer to him. He would work nine to five, he'd come home, we'd have dinner, but he had brought his home, his work home with them a lot. And it was an opportunity for me, I thought I felt anyway, his opportunity for me to do something that he was doing. And it was something that we can share. And I was right, I fell in love with it. And we've been sharing it ever since. We both trained for over 10 years before we opened our first school together. So in 1999, my father and I opened our first private school together. And a few years later, I opened our second location in 2000. And it was 2005. So it's been something that's been keeping us very, very active together for a very, very long time. And for that I have so much appreciation for karate, because it's not I don't. I don't know if anyone can say that they had the same sort of relationship. I mean, you have a father, right. But you know, if your father's a nine to five, and then you do something completely unrelated. Not everybody has the same sort of common interests with their parents. So, I'm very blessed to have had that.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah. There's a lot there. There's a lot there for us to unpack. So how about let's start with this. Why did your father start training?
Jonathan Kenney:
So, my father started training because of stress. And if you ask him, I've heard this story a dozen or 100 times. He was a nine to five, like I mentioned. And he was climbing up the “corporate ladder” of his business. And he was running into different stresses. He didn't at that point in time, he had work and family and that was basically it. And it was my mother that actually encouraged him, Look, you got to do something else to de stress. And that's, so he started training when he was about 40. And that was his de stress, he'd go and he trained, he blew off steam and you came home. And he had that. I think it started as a hobby to blow off steam. And then we all got into it. My mother was training my father, sorry, my mother's training, my sister was training. My brother and I were training and my brother, myself and my father, we got our black belts and continued and my mother and my sister got up to the green belts, right, which was not insignificant for them at the time. And we were just a big karate family. And it was awesome. We all had something to share and you know, talk about and even today, like my sister will remember stories from when she was training and we'd still laugh and we still have that connection. So even though she hasn't trained in I don't know, 30 years, maybe 20 years, I don't want to forget how old she is. But she, she, she still fondly remembers these, these experiences and these stories and you just still memories that we and experiences that we still share to this day, even so far removed. So it's, it's always been, it's always been part of our family, it's been a blessing. And my father even today still runs our original school, the same location since 1999. Same locations, then, you know, same passion.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah. And then that trip. I've seen a lot of family's steps into martial arts, and you can quite a few of them remain training together. But it doesn't create tension when you go home. Now, of course, you started when you were pretty young. So, there's no you know, there's no break in the authority figure. He started martial arts before you. He is your father. He's, you know, your superior if you want to use that collective term, in both contexts. But as you remained in you earned rank. And the two of you the way you described it, you opened a school together, that starts to blur that line a little bit. Were there challenges in the family dynamic?
Jonathan Kenney:
Yes, you are. You are, you're really good at this. Thank you. I hadn't even prepared to go through this part of it. So in 2000, sorry, in many I'm the opener school it was. It was great. I did most of the teaching. And my father. He did. He did some of the classes as well. But I was the main instructor. He was the face of the school, the figurehead. He had the you know, the final decision on everything, and it was fine for a while. And then yeah, you're right, it, the school got too small for the two of us. I moved when we were part of a big trip to China in 2004. I went to Japan and okay, now, before meeting the rest of the group in Macau. Not Hong Kong, not Macau, in Hong Kong. And then once this three week tour was over, I stayed in China to continue to train in various systems of kung fu. But when I came back, the experience over there was so impactful. When I came back, I knew that I couldn't go back to the dojo to the school. So when I came back, that was the summer of 2004. I came back in December 2004. And then I knew that I couldn't go back. Because it got to a point in time where when I would give instructions or advice to students, if they didn't like what I had to say, they would go over my head, and they would talk to my father. And that that was not just somebody going over my head and talking to the sense of the dojo, they're talking to the fathers ago, I'm going to go talk to your dad, when I have students that look at me and say, well, I'm gonna go talk to your dad, it was very demoralizing. And it made me feel like I didn't have the value that I thought of myself. So when I came back from China, I was very sporadic in terms of my instruction duties at the school, and then the first chance I got, and now my father was not reluctant whatsoever. First chance we got, we knew that, you know, I needed to have my own space. So in the summer of 2005, I opened my own location in a different city. And I didn't go back. We were partners for a while. And then once I got to a point where I needed to be completely on my own, I dissolved him and I dissolved the partnership, and I incorporated my own name and brand and the dynamic at home. I don't want to say it ever got bad. But there was some straining. Right.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I would be surprised if you said there wasn't. Yeah, I don't know that. I would believe you if you said there wasn't.
Jonathan Kenney:
Yeah. And so, I moved on, right. And then because he had his way to operate, and I conflicted with that. Alright, so he's a thinker, and a planner, and I'm a doer. So, I will try and do four or five things by the time he figures out what he wants to do. Right now, I will fail three or four times before he even tries once. Right. But I'm an action taker, and that was what caused a lot of conflict between us. Now he, because of his planning and his methodical, systematic nature of being an engineer brain, he was right more often than not, but I was just a little impatient, impulsive, and to the degree, I still am impulsive. I think I'm trying to hang on to that usefulness of it. But yeah, it created a lot, a lot of conflict on certain decisions that needed to be made. And opening my own school and having my own students where nobody could go over my head and get satisfaction from someplace else was what was needed. And then once I, you know, had my own stable students, and he had his, you know, a lot of the balance will return, you became, you know, my father again, right, and not, you know, the sensei of my dojo, not him, and he was never my sensei. So he never taught me, we had another, we were part of an organization, and that instructor was our mutual sensei. So there's never any conflict with instruction, but just the dynamic at the Dojo with the, with our dojo with the students. So once I opened up our own space, it was kind of relieved and we got to go back to the way it was where we both trained together with our instructor. And we were, you know, Father, Son, you know, in our personal lives. So it was a lot better for the two of us. And even better, so when, when I separated the or dissolved the partnership, and incorporated, then there was no money going back and forth. Right. And that was a big bone of contention, where it's like, I was, you know, I was doing these types of numbers, and he was doing those types of numbers. And it was just like, okay, we need to separate numbers, and just, you know, get back to being Father, Son. And so when we did that, that really a lot of the tension, money, money creates so much tension even in the martial arts world, right, that money is still, you know, creates tension. And once we removed that it was better for us, it was healthier and became a healthy relationship.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Good. Good. I'm curious, have you to, on the other side of this, I'm sure there were conversations in the midst of it. But after all, you two ever sat down and talked about what that experience was like for each of you.
Jonathan Kenney:
I don't know if we need to talk about it to be perfectly honest, because I think the transparency that we have had throughout our “careers”, kind of resolved a lot of that. So he knows, he knows that I'm action oriented, and impulsive. And I don't always think everything through before I take action, I've had a ton of success. Doing it that way, because I'm very intuitive. And I'm just getting things done is what I do. Even if I make a little bit of a mistake, you know, I fix it right away. I will correct it right away. I'm always moving, always moving, always moving. And he knows that that always drove him nuts. And you know, the way that he took a couple extra days to think about something always drove me nuts. And we're very, we're always very transparent about it. So we have had a wonderful and open transparent relationship. So having a separate conversation would be almost redundant, I think at this point in time. Like, he's, he's, he's, he's been my biggest supporter, I love the guy. There's nothing I wouldn't do for him. So, he knows that, you know.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I've watched a lot of partnerships dissolve, and quite often, in that dissolution, the person or the people that are left, take some steps, some big thing, something that they felt like they couldn't pressure restriction. So, when that second location became your location exclusively, did you start doing anything differently?
Jonathan Kenney:
That's a great question. The short answer is I did things. This way, that's hard to answer because the short answer is yes. Because I didn't have to wait for anybody to approve My decisions. When we were together at the original school, pretty much everything that I wanted to do, we did, it just took longer to get to. But when I was out on my own, the decisions that I wanted to make were made immediately and action was taken immediately and a lot, in my mind anyway, he might have a different perception of it. But in my mind, things got done faster, more efficiently. And did I do anything differently? Or would I start doing anything differently? I don't, not, not initially, from the additional flexibility of decision making, I made a lot more mistakes, which I learned from, and I developed different marketing, you know, systems for, you know, attracting new students that I may not have been able to get to if I wasn't on my own. But I think a lot of the decisions led to a lot of the mistakes that I made led to a lot of successes that I've had as well.
So, I think that the only big difference is that I was able to take action quicker and sooner. And know that they were my own actions and my own mistakes. I'm a big fan of responsibility and accountability. And when I feel like somebody else could be hurt by a decision, it does kind of hold me back and reserve me. But when I know that I'm the only person that's going to suffer from a mistake that I make, it makes it easier for me to make decisions and take action because I'm the only one that has to suffer. And then it's easier for me to correct those mistakes, because I'm the only one that's kind of in the hole. So for me, it was easier to take risks. Being on my own, I guess that's the short answer. It was easier for me to take risks.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I get a lot of martial arts, school owners take risks, they try different things in terms of marketing, or they bring their own ideas into everything from curriculum to rank to, when to hold classes. Have you taken any risks that worked out really, really well that you'd be willing to share? And by risk, I don't mean that it's necessarily some mind blowingly different thing, but different from what you were brought up with.
Jonathan Kenney:
The biggest risk I have ever taken was and this is this is the biggest one. And I was part of an organization that in the 80s and 90s was a significant organization. It had dozens of schools. And I was part of that organization since I started in 1986, eight years old, and I was my instructor, you know, he could do no wrong. He in my mind was, you know, God's status, right? A lot of kids think of their Sensei, right. And being a part of that organization, and opening a school in that organization, my mandate was I have to grow, I have to help this organization get bigger and stronger and grow, right. But when he started to make decisions that conflicted with the direction that I wanted to go, I bet on myself, and I left the organization. And that was, for me. One of the hardest things I've ever done, it's, it's what I knew for 30 years. And, but I wanted more for myself. And I knew that I couldn't achieve that in that organization. So I bet on myself, and I struck it on my own, I became independent. And then for the first time in my life, I was without an instructor. I mean, my father was my biggest supporter, but in terms of karate training, and not having a Sensei, for example, was a very, very crazy thing and was a very, very scary thing. And, there was a time where I was lost. And it was because it felt like a divorce a really, really bad divorce. But at the same time, it also kind of felt like a lottery win because now I can even though I had my own dojo, I was still under the umbrella of an organization. So I was still restricted by what the organization wanted to do for its brand. So when I separated from the organization, that was just all me. I was separated from my father. From the organization, I could rebrand and do whatever I wanted, however I wanted. It was, it was scary, it was scary. And I would do it again in a heartbeat. I would go through all of those months of fear and anxiety. And there was a period of depression, right where I just, I just wasn't, I just wasn't myself. I would do it all again, to have what I have today. So if anybody else is listening, and you're wondering, you know, I'm not happy with my organization, should I stay? Or should I go, you don't need an organization. People don't sign up with you. Because you're part of an organization, they sign up with you because they want you. And once I finally realized that it made life so much, so much better, so much better.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I believe that, I believe that, you know, you talked about some of the challenges in there and feeling like a divorce, maybe even a rough divorce. How did you process that? It's not easy to walk through it.
Jonathan Kenney:
Honestly, it was hard. Because I felt betrayed. It wasn't just me having a different direction from the organization, the organization took steps to hurt me. And, and that was kind of the straw that broke the camel's back. I mean, there were a lot of weird things that I'm not going to talk about with this organization that was pushing me away from them already. But when they took steps to hurt me, financially, there was a line that was crossed that I never saw coming. I never thought in a million years he could have done that to me. And when he did, I was like, Okay, I guess this is the direction that I'm going now. And it was, like I said, he was so much a part of my development when I was young, and to have that, you know, have that hurt caused, at the end there. It was, like, I had like, it was like, my heart was broken, my heart was broken. But it was the best thing for me. And I want to thank my wife for being the rock that she was during that whole thing.
You know, I felt worthless for a time. And she made sure that I felt my worth. She felt that I needed to hear on a constant regular basis that my students still loved me. And I still had value. Even though I didn't, I wasn't valued by my former organization. There were some dark days, brought to tears and some, some dark days. And so what I did was from then I threw myself into training, and I sought out anything that anything and then any one. So back in 2017 was probably the most pivotal. One of the most pivotal years of my martial arts career because I started actively seeking out instruction from other experts. The guys, Jeremy and Michael at karate culture. They came to my area.
Good friend of mine, Ryan, he brought them in and I was able to train with them. Another friend of mine, a debt rice brought in Jesse Enkamp and I went into that seminar. I also saw Ian Abernathy, that same year, so that was a full year for me. And then even Paula [00:28:55-00:28:57], I saw that year so I was being exposed to these fantastically talented educated martial arts masters and it blew my mind because I hadn't seen this level of karate before. I mean, my former instructor did anything and everything he could to prevent us from training with other instructors based on this perverted sense of loyalty and Japanese.
Well, you don't train with other instructors that added it up. He wasn't protecting, you know, the organization he was preventing us from seeing how unskilled he was compared to other experts around the world. He was preventing us from realizing his deficiencies. So when I started training with these other masters, it's like wow, I fell in love with the functional approach that you and I, Ruthie, and Michael and Jeremy from prior to culture they were demonstrating I thought with the playfulness and the skill of Jessie and camp, and then it was through Jesse Enkamp that I met Hanshi McCarthy and I was just overwhelmed by his charisma and his function with the, with his approach to the karate. And that's when I knew it was the writing on the wall. And it was 2017.
It was a big year here. And after, after being exposed to all these individuals, and knowing that I wanted more from karate, when I organized my storm organization, when they, you know, behaved, I'll say, politically correct. When they behaved the way that they did.I knew it was the right thing to do at the right time. But it didn't hurt any less. When they betrayed me that way, it didn't hurt any less. But I still knew it was the right thing. So that's why at that time, it felt like my heart was broken, felt like a bad divorce. But it also felt like winning the lottery, because I was outside of that environment. And I could start my life over basically what it felt like.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I get it, I get it, you know, those are some impactful people. And the part that's bouncing around my head is, I'm wondering, had you had, let's say, a stronger, more supportive organization? Maybe if you hadn't gone through some of the challenges with your father? What if you were one of the rare business partnerships that knocked it out of the park? And you were better off with each other? Would you have been as open to these other folks? Would you have found them? So, what do you think?
Jonathan Kenney:
I think that? Probably not, if I was completely happy with my organization, no, I probably would not have been seeking outside information. The problem with what I was experiencing at the time is I was you know; I was still in my early 40s. And I still feel like I'm young and strong, although some days are not convincing me of that. But I wanted a more functional approach. And the organization that I was with descended into a theoretical approach, meaning that they were caught a bass and he was teaching a new Kata from a different system every week, and it was just all caught up all the time. And if that's what you're into, I appreciate and I respect it. It wasn't what I was into. So if I was completely happy in terms of the business sense, would I still be with the organization? Probably, but would it have prevented me from seeking outside? I don't know. I don't know. That. I want to say yes. But if I was completely happy, maybe I wouldn't. I don't 100%. No, I didn't know. Let's go ahead.
Well, I'm just going to say that it's a hypothetical question, of course. But what had happened was that the organization really didn't want its members to be super successful. They wanted a system of control, where I wanted to open multiple schools in the organization. And he actively prevented it. He just did not want any one member of the organization to be too successful. And it was, so I was going to be leaving anyway. Because the ceiling was just so low for success, what's the word I'm looking for? The success that he wanted for his members; his dojo members could not exceed his own. And when you have an organization that just kind of stifles your growth, it's a recipe for collapse. And that organization has actually disbanded and collapsed since 2017. Since I left it was just good timing for me because you know, nobody is a part of that organization anymore because like I said, it just collapsed. I mean the support for its members just wasn't there. The development for success just was not there and as a result it has collapsed. And honestly, it was a little overdue.
Jeremy Lesniak:
So sadly, it happens all too often. You know, I think quite often, organizations start with good intentions. But for all the sorts of reasons that you've talked about, and so many more, it turns into power turns into a power grab. And that's not to say that all martial arts organizations, affiliations, etc, are bad. I don't think the majority of them are. But it doesn't mean that it is for everyone. Yeah, even the good ones.
Jonathan Kenney:
Yeah. And I have since I actually, I actually love being part of an organization. I have since joined another organization. I'm with gkc global right now. But then I was very careful before moving on, and you know, “getting in bed” with another organization because of how much I was hurt. But here's, here's what I did. I interviewed and obviously, you know, you don't, you don't want to disrespect the the instructors of the Sensei, but I interviewed multiple instructors, before committing because I was looking, I knew that I could find karate, I knew that I could find an instructor that could teach me karate, I knew that I could do that. So when I sought a new Sensei, I wasn't looking for just good karate, I was looking for good people. I wanted to connect with people that actually had my success as part of their plan with me, and for me, so I went this route, I talked to this guy, I talked to this guy, it's like this guy. And nobody really fits when I want it.
I had one guy, I went to see this one guy, a high ranking instructor in the area. And I showed him a Kata. Alright, that I was that I had known. And he looked at me and the first thing that came out of his mouth was, oh, I can fix you. And I was like, I'm not broken. I might be different, but I'm not broken. So I never went back to him. Right? Because that, to me, is a red flag. I didn't need that. When I went with, I went down to California, actually to see a sensei called and said to Michelle Enfield, and I showed him Suncheon, the sunshine that I had learned from my previous organization. And I just, I just loved his response. It was much, much different than anything he had ever seen before. And he looked at me goes, hmm, I hadn't seen it done that way before.
Well, this is how we do it here. And it's like, well, that was perfect. That was that's this, this is the type of, you know, person, little martial artists that, that I'm looking for somebody that doesn't care if it's different. All right, and isn't going to judge me for being different. And from then on, I mean, I stayed at gkc global because I honestly sincerely believe that they want me to be as successful as I want to be. So, that was when I knew I was home. But you're right. Some organizations, they have this old school mentality, it's not for everybody. And then maybe that is what you want. But I was looking forward to being part of an organization because I am looking forward to being a Sensei and an instructor that can further my martial arts. My goals, your skill and knowledge. But I was looking for the right chemistry of good people. And the people in this organization have been nothing short of wonderful. And so that's why I'm with gkc global and much McCarthy for that matter.
I am a member of his organization as well, I don't want to leave him out. He was one of the most influential individuals through that transition from my former organization. He really spoke on my behalf and helped me get through different challenges. Before I was able to land in the direction that I wanted, I wanted to go and his organization, his people, also some of the best, most wonderful people that I've ever encountered in the martial arts community. So, I don't want to leave him out because it's like a family.
Jeremy Lesniak:
A good martial art school, his family and, you know, sadly, there are plenty of examples you hinted at somewhere where the principles and the ethics that are common in most martial art schools don't translate into the business side of things, and it's really a disappointment. But when you do find those people, and I've had the pleasure of working with a number of those people, it really is refreshing. Because you can let your guard down a bit. Just as if you're training, if you're running a drill with someone, and you know, they're not going to hit you, you can relax, and focus on whatever the intent of that drill is, you can focus on whatever the goals of your school or other business are. And I know, there are people out there who haven't had the opportunity to experience that, and I hope that they do because it is so refreshing. So night and day, from the other way doing it.
Jonathan Kenney:
Yeah, it's actually part of a in Canada, we have Sport Canada and their national model, they actually I actually finished a module with them, talking about old school versus new modern, and you don't have to be old, the old school, you just if you were raised in an old school system, and it was successful for you. And I do believe that there are people that have been very successful being brought up in an old school mentality, where intimidation, even pain is part of the culture to push to push you to succeed. But when they become coaches themselves, or senses or whatever, they only pass on what was successful for them. And they press this, this intimidation, this Hanshi McCarthy was called the Senpai and kōhai relationship where the sum is always right, no matter what, and the kohai has to follow and comply no matter what the new method of instructing is not.
It's not like that, I mean, times have changed, and there's not much room for that old old school mentality anymore, where you just punish people for thinking differently than you it needs to be understood that, although senses are people who have gone before, they're still just people, right, and they are just as much here human, as any student, and then even any white belt needs to respect it needs to be respected, just the same as any black belt. And it's kind of that's the kind of the environment that I want to foster here and being part of gkc global, and especially even the KU system with Hanshi McCarthy, it's like you're respected for your effort level. Just put in the time and love the people that are around you. And you know, everything will be happy. And that's what I love. Just put in the time, but put in the work. Alright. And everybody's treated almost equally. I love the new way, the new method.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Let's play out a hypothetical. Yeah, I'm curious how you would handle this in May. Maybe you've even had to you've had a school for 15 years. 16 years from doing math, right.
Jonathan Kenney:
From 99 to now it's been teaching. Okay.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Let's say you've got a student that comes to you. And they say, you know, I'm really feeling called to open my own school. What would you do?
Jonathan Kenney:
I have been waiting for that for a while. I would help them, I would do everything in my power to make sure that they're the best version of themselves so that they can be the best version that their students need. I've had a couple of people in the past that I've been leading towards that goal, and ultimately, it wasn't for them and they moved on to do other things. But I would love the opportunity to lead one of my students to open their own school, whether it's a branch of my brand for Guchi martial arts, or something they wanted to do for themselves. I would love that and I would help them all the way. Yeah, um, that's a simple answer. I would love it. Easy, easy. And I wouldn't do it. I would obviously avoid pitfalls that I had been trapped into as well.
Jeremy Lesniak:
You lead me into the follow up. What I was going to ask, yeah, but what would you avoid? What are the things you'd be making? Sure, you didn't? I'm sure that people listening are curious. I'm curious.
Jonathan Kenney:
I would not prevent them from making money. I would not prevent it. And it sounds like such a weird thing to say. It sounds like such a weird thing to say. But my former organization, like I said, wanted the brand to be so tightly controlled that we were literally restricted from making money. In a single meeting. This was, I don't know, 2015-2016. He said, I laugh every time I think about this. He said, no social media, no Google, no YouTube, no nothing. We're going to use print advertising. And it was like, Is he serious? As it was, this is a conversation that's actually occurring right now. He was serious.
He wanted to tightly control the narrative so much that we were not allowed to use social media to promote and advertise our schools. We couldn't use Google ads, for example. He wanted us off the internet. And it was so bizarre considering the times it's like, okay, this is ridiculous. And it got to a point in time where I wanted to right now. I mean, for the last 20 years, after school programs have been big, right? And there was a time where you could have made a lot of money doing an after school program, you pick the kids up, you bring them here. You teach them karate, and then, you know, he said no. He said, no, absolutely not. No, after school programs knew this, he was trying to tightly restrict our ability to generate revenue.
Jeremy Lesniak:
But that can't have been the reason he gave. I can't imagine anyone openly saying I just don't want you to make money. He must have had a reason for that?
Jonathan Kenney:
Yeah, you're right. And what he told us about his big mandate, I think, was to just get people off their devices, less electronics off the devices. And the idea that he told us, I don't know what his real motivation was. But what he told us was that for us to promote on Google and social media and YouTube, and that sort of thing, was encouraging people to be on their devices to find us. And the whole mandate was to get people off their devices and into the dojo, but we couldn't get them into the dojo, because nobody uses print advertisement, like print advertisement is, is almost dead.
I know, there are still some magazines, but I mean, everything is online, everything's on the internet. But that was the big mandate that he told us. And it was just hard. It was just weird. It's like, this is not the industry. This is not marketing, you know, success anymore. a print ad is wasted money, like, it was like for years and for years, when you put an advertisement in the phonebook, like the paper phonebook. Right? You have a big ad in the phonebook. Right? When people actually go through the phone book defines you. Right, but when the Internet became the internet, right, there isn't even a phone book printed anymore. So, it was something that was lost in connection. That's what he told us and what his actual mandate was. I don't know. I don't know if that is different.
I don't know who you actually believe that. I don't know. But it stifled a lot of us and a lot of us pulled away and water was pulled out. Because we were just, we were trying to run a full-time dojo and we felt stifled in our ability to generate revenue. And so, we just started going out so go ahead. No, I would prefer to move on from talking about this farm organization because I don't want to give them any more attention that day.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I understand. I was going to detour. Okay. So, we talked about what you might do. If a student comes to you must open a school. Yeah. That's one of many things that happen in the lifecycle of a long-standing school. And, you know, unless you're planning on shutting your school down, it doesn't sound like there's any plan to do that anytime soon. There are a bunch of other things that are coming. There are other milestones there are you know, with that time, top table I'm expecting you've promoted people to a number of higher ranks. And as a school, and even if it's not formally in organization, you have an organization, a collection of people, as that collection grows and ages, it can be really difficult to balance finding your own personal identity beyond the person at the front, you know, however you want to turn that in the school. How do you balance that?
Jonathan Kenney:
I don't know. Okay, and that actually brings me back to what I had said when we first got together in terms of, you know, where I am in my martial arts career, and where it will ultimately end up. I mean, it's almost like we're talking about, you know, that legacy, like in I don't, I don't have children. So, I'm not leaving my cool to my kids. So what happens to my school, when I'm ready to retire, move on and move on to another life? Because if somebody takes over, it closes. And I would love to open multiple schools and have them operate for decades after I'm gone. That would be a good premise, that would be a good legacy. In the current organization, I'm just happy training right now. I'm having experience. I'm happy to experience the different things that are coming to me right now, with Canada, and my provincial sports organization.
Currently it is called [00:51:56-00:51:57], but I think they're going back to Ontario. But anyway, I'm getting more involved with my provincial and my national sport organization. I have a number of students that are competing and over the next, you know, 10 years will compete, hopefully at a high level. But in terms of like, where I'm going to end up, I don't know. Right now, I'm just trying to work and develop my students as best as I can. And I'm still trying to improve myself. And I don't I don't know what's going to happen, where I'm going to be in the next five or 10 years or longer. Which is, you know, one of the things I've been thinking about leading up to this interview. I honestly wish I had an answer for that. If I had a student that wanted to open a dojo, boom, I'm going to go all in and help that person to be successful and avoid some of the things that I did when I was first open.
I mean, when I first opened, we didn't know how to run a school. We just sat there in the chair waiting for people to call or show up. We didn't know how to be proactive. We weren't instructed on how to be proactive and in acquiring new students. So if I had a student that want to open a school, it's like, okay, this is how you be proactive. This is how you drive, you know, students to your dojo, I would that would be that mentor and leader that, you know, I felt like I didn't have when my father and I first opened. So other than that, it's one day, one day, right now, right now, I just am focused on getting renovations done in my house, so I can move home and sleep in my own bed. That's today's goal. That's today's goal. Other than that, continue to teach, and hopefully that I can, you know, be impactful. Like, I was thinking about one of my most recent students. I'm not gonna say her name because she doesn't want to be given attention, but she has been training with me for 10 years. And she called me one time, she said, Sensei, I'm applying to Harvard. And can you write me a reference letter?
I was like, Oh my gosh. Like that's, that's a real thing. Like, of course, and she ended up accepting at the University of Toronto, so she wants to become a so-called heart surgeon cardio, something I forget the name integrity with... So now she's becoming a doctor and it's like, oh, my gosh, like I helped, you know, her along the way. I mean, if I said something to her that helped guide you know, her success, I mean, not me. makes me feel really good. But that's, that's, that's my current. That's my current mandate, just continue to help as many as I can and somebody wants to open a school write that, I can help them do that, I'll help them do that. But in terms of my legacy, I don't know what it's going to look like, until, you know, it appears to me and in the future, I don't I don't even know how to answer that question. And now I sound like I'm rambling in circles.
Jeremy Lesniak:
No worries, you're not rambling at all. What we do on this show, it doesn't follow a specific path. You know, it's and we could, we could easily bring in some martial arts metaphors, fights or any kind of free for movement, right? Sometimes it looks really good. Sometimes it's not. But at the end of the day, with enough scale, it's effective. And I think that's where we've been today. You know, just because there were a couple points that maybe guests usually listen to the show and, you know, are always harder on themselves and everyone else, because let's face it, we're martial artists. And we don't progress unless we're pushing ourselves. And we tend to bring that attitude to a lot of other aspects of our lives. But this has been a great chat. You know, I don't want to, I hope you don't think otherwise. But even if you do, it's in the past. At this point, right, like, we're moving forward.
Jonathan Kenney:
Yeah, it's been, I just want to make sure that, you know, if this is something that my students listen to, and future generations listen to, I don't want to come across as jaded. The experiences of my past have made me who I am. And I'm very happy with who I am. And moving forward, I think, the most important thing that I can give to my students or anybody else, for that matter, that asks for my help, or my advice is to steer them in, you know, away from the things that have hurt me, I don't believe anybody needs to go through the type of hurt that I went through to be a better person and go back to the old expression. learn from other people's mistakes, because you'll never live long enough to make them all yourself. So what that implies is that making mistakes is a good thing. You can learn a lot from making mistakes, but you'll never live long enough to make them all yourself.
So, it's important to learn from other people's mistakes. And I have made several lifetimes of mistakes. Of course, it sounds like I'm being very harsh on myself, but that's how I feel. And if somebody wants to ask me for my help, or my advice, I would give it without a second thought . I want to be surrounded by people that are successful. And the best way to surround yourself with successful people is to help make them successful yourself. And that's, that's a recipe for success on its own.
Jeremy Lesniak:
If people want to get a hold of you and find you online, where do they go?
Jonathan Kenney:
The easiest way to find me is at [00:58:17-00:58:22] via email. Those are the two biggest on YouTube for Guchi Martial Arts, or Guchi meaning Tiger's hand the you know, the the technique and those youth or Guchi. Other than that, you're welcome to follow me but I'm not gonna blast my cell phone on a podcast, but definitely reach us through the email or through the website.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And, you know, there are people listening, they're still listening, let's say some of your students are listening, let's say future students or even students of students are listening. What final thoughts? Would you leave them with?
Jonathan Kenney:
Ask questions. Ask lots of questions. If you are training with somebody that doesn't like questions, and I'm not even talking about karate, I'm talking about in life if you are with somebody that doesn't appreciate your curiosity, find somebody else, find somebody that can help you with your curiosity. And I'm not saying that you should find an instructor that knows everything. If you have an instructor that leads you to believe that they know everything, that's also a red flag, find somebody else because nobody knows everything and allow them to grow with you. Find somebody that will grow with you that will challenge you, respect you and grow with you? That would be the most important thing and just be true to yourself. Just be true to yourself. I know that's a cliche thing to say. But when I was, you know, years ago, I didn't feel like I was being true to myself and being as striking out on my own. I was allowed to, to express who I really was and who I really am. And I'm with people that empower me to, to continue to grow. But yeah, never, never stop being curious. And always be true to yourself, follow your gut, your gut is more, more, more often than right. Will give you the warning bells that you need and yeah, don't be afraid to continue to look for answers.
Alright, never stop asking questions. I think that's the most important thing that I would say. Like, even with my students, when they ask me questions, I'm not going to lie to them. I look them straight in the face and say, That's a great question. I don't know the answer so let me ask my sensei. And then they respect that. And if they don't respect that, they're usually not my students who were very long and it wasn't a good fit. And that's okay, too. All right. I'm not in a position to fight people and cling to people's it, I understand that. If something's not a good fit, I wish them well. I don't get offended when students want to move on and seek other instruction.
In fact, I will more than likely put them in the right direction and refer them to somebody else. Because like I said, when other people are successful, that's success, you know, even indirectly, you know, reflects on me, so it makes you feel good when other people are successful. But don't stop asking questions, keep training hard. Sweat equity is real, I think is, is a good one. Sweat equity is Israel. I know that so many people, they learn and they learn. But then they didn't put in the reps. And I can say that the longevity of your success depends on the effort that you put into it. You don't need to be successful today just a little better than yesterday, because effort over time equals success. And you just have to be patient, put one foot in front of the other and don't stop. I say to my students all the time, never quit, never surrender.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I told you at the intro that I was really appreciative of Sensei digging into why all the things that happened, the openness that he had, with a difficult situation running a school with his father, and this organization that didn't treat him well. There are plenty of examples of martial artists who don't recover from those challenges from being I guess we could say in one case, treated differently than they felt they deserved, and in the other, just not quite finding a fit. But he didn't quit. He kept going. He found a way to make what he wanted from the world around him. And I think that that's something martial artists generally do a really good job with. We find our place in the world. And we occupy that space. Well. I had a great time talking to him. So Sensei, thanks for coming on the show. I appreciate all of your time and your openness. This was a lot of fun. And I hope to talk to you again, listeners, if you want the show notes, the photos and the links and all that good stuff go to whistlekickmartialartsradio.com. Every episode gets its own pay.
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