Episode 651 - Reconciling Competition vs Cooperation in Training
Reconciling Competition vs Cooperation in Training
In this episode, Jeremy and co-host Andrew Adams take on Reconciling Competition vs Cooperation in Training.
Reconciling Competition vs Cooperation in Training - Episode 651
As humans, it is inherent for us to have that competitive nature where we always want to be ahead of another or we just want to win. Sometimes, this thirst for winning puts us and the people we train in class in danger. So, up to what extent should a martial artist who’s training with others go with his or her competitive nature? In this episode, Jeremy and Andrew talk about Reconciling Competition vs Cooperation in Training
Listen and join the conversation! Watch the video below.
Show Transcript
You can read the transcript below.
Jeremy Lesniak:
What's going on everybody and welcome! You're watching or listening to whistle kick martial arts radio. Today Andrew and I are going to talk about reconciling competitive spirit versus cooperative spirit, in training, competition in training so stick around. We'll talk more about that of course, if you're watching you can see Andrews here with me.
Andrew Adams:
Here I am.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Could you be in anything else? You can be here in spirit.
Andrew Adams:
I can be here in spirit.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I wonder how many people are here in spirit.
Andrew Adams:
Who knows?
Jeremy Lesniak:
I have no idea. I am Jeremy Lesniak host primary host for the show your host for the show. I can't just say host for the show anymore.
Andrew Adams:
I tell people I co-host.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah, absolutely and I'm also the founder of whistle kick, where everything we do is in celebration in support of the traditional martial arts.
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Okay. All right. Intro, competition versus cooperation.
Now. I don't remember the genesis for this idea. But this was you said this was my idea. Yeah, we'll do this.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And where I'm thinking of it, if you've been training for more than, I don't know, a week, you've ended up with someone in training, who's a rival.
Andrew Adams:
And it often happens where people will start roughly the same. Yeah, you're like, I'm better than that person. Oh, they just passed me.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Oh, they are. And you get there. There's, there's a healthy competitive spirit.
Andrew Adams:
Absolutely.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And there could also be an unhealthy competitive spirit. And then you've got, you know, kind of the far end of the spectrum where everything's just cooperation. Right? And how do you balance them? Because you might initially think, oh, well, you know, don't worry about competing with others. But for a lot of us, that inspires us, and makes us better. We try a little harder. How about you?
Andrew Adams:
Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's inherent in everyone's psyche. I think a little bit to have that, but I especially see it in kids a lot that competitive, wanting, you know, seeing how you are progressing as opposed to someone else and wanting to be better than that other person if they're better than you. I see it in kids a lot.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I even see some instructors leveraging that playing certain kids off of each other, especially if they are similar age, similar rank, similar skills. Oh, well, you know, or sometimes I see the exact opposite where you get, you know, the new white belt in the back of the class, and they're trying harder, they're busting it out. And the instructor pretty much shames everyone. Oh, well, you know, here's this younger, less skilled new student who's crushing it and the rest of you are slacking off.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah. I think it can be done well, I think it can be done very poorly.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah. And that that's a tangent we could probably spend a lot of time on and I don't think we should. If people want we can go deeper on that.
Andrew Adams:
Not today.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah, we can go deeper on that is another episode of some people want us to just let us know. By the way, if you want to give us some feedback, easiest way, Jeremy@whistlekick.com. But the title of the episode is about reconciling.
How do you find balance between the two? Because on the one hand, we know as you said, a competitive spirit exists in all of us, even if it's only a little bit and it can be really beneficial, especially in difficult times of training.
On the other end, most of us should be training for ourselves and for our own reasons, not just to be better than other people. But that can be difficult to do sometimes. And yet, I think the further you progress, the more valuable it is. If your why is contingent on somebody else, and that person, you know, fails from class, then your reason just when your reason is gone, so you need both. But where does it go? Like if those are the two ends of the spectrum? Like we're in the middle? Do you go?
Andrew Adams:
Yeah, that's the difficult balance.
Jeremy Lesniak:
That's really hard to comment.
Andrew Adams:
Exactly, trying to find that balance. You know, I do think competitive nature can be a really good thing. But it's finding that balance of where does it step over the line to become detrimental to yourself and your own training.
Jeremy Lesniak:
What would be some examples of it being detrimental unhealthy?
Andrew Adams:
When you put blinders on? And that's the only focus you have, if that's the only thing that you are interested in. That might be an issue, because then it becomes, you're driven to do this one thing, and nothing else matters. And I think having that type of mindset in any endeavor, can be really detrimental.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Absolutely. I think the easiest example I can come up with, I've known a number of, of, like, kind of adolescent kids who went to class because they didn't want someone to outrank them.
They didn't want to be surpassed in rank by someone that they were similar age, similar rank, they start at the same time, and a lot of times these kids go to school together, right? So the part of their identity, you know, this person and that person are the same rank, they trade in the same place, they go to competitions, whatever. And, you know, I've had kids come to me, they're like, you know, I'm kind of kind of bored kind of bound, we'll take a break. It's okay to take a break.
Yeah, but then so and so is going to get promoted over me.
Andrew Adams:
Yep.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah. Okay. And I think it's a little bit easier to use these examples for children because kids are a little more honest with their feelings, their emotions, their motivations. When I think back to being a kid, I was absolutely motivated to leverage my place in the school as part of my identity. You know, growing up, I was, you know, me big shock. I was a nerd, still a nerd. I've talked about that on the show quite a bit.
And at school, you know, I was, if not done or, you know, one of a very small group that was kind of looked at as like, oh, Nerdy kids in school.
But I had martial arts to lean on, you know, not just in training, but in competition. And it was something that kept me fired up knowing that I was better than most of the people in the school. Whether or not that was true, that was my process. I used felt, and, you know, putting on my gi back then was like, putting on my Superman costume, my Batman armor, whatever.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And it really helped me through some dark time. So there's a positive aspect to the competitive nature. Now I wasn't necessarily competitive with individuals actually there was some of the instructors son was someone who I was competitive with, even though he was a few years younger, because there weren't a lot of kids that stuck with it long term. So it was kinda like him and I.
But for the most part, it was good. Do you have any stories like that from your started later than I did?
Andrew Adams:
I started I didn't start training till I was in high school. So a little bit later. But I see this type of thing all the time in my other aspects of my life in terms of the drumming aspect, because I teach a youth band, everyone in the band is under the age of 21.
And to me, and to be honest, most of them are under the age of like, 15. So they're, they're younger kids and someone's young is 10 years old.
And so that competitive nature within that organization also is inherent, and it can be a good thing, as long as it's not the only driving force. But seeing to students pushes themselves, to work to get better than the other is a good thing for both of them. They're getting better, they're learning more, and they’re gaining more experience. But it's important that it not become the only driving factor. That's the issue.
Jeremy Lesniak:
So how do you have that off? How would you as a parent, or a higher ranking student and instructor when you start to rank denies that the competitive aspect of the motivation or the lack thereof, because I think even though it's easier to point out where it is the static, the lack thereof can still be problematic.
You know, here's a good example. Someone is sparring, and they care so little about winning, scoring points, being better, that they just don't spar, well, they don't put any effort in that would also be bad because, you know, if they're not motivated, they're not developing a skill set that could save them in a confrontation.
So like that motivation to win to be better has some healthy applicability. Quote it back, how do those people help that student? Who is too focused on the competitive nature?
Andrew Adams:
I don't I mean, there's no simple answer for sure. I think it's important because it depends. Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of factors. You know, like, for me, I try it when I see a really, really, really competitive, you know, when I see that competitive streak of someone, and that's all they were focusing on, my goal is to try and have them focus on other things. That because generally, let's say you and I are the ones that are, you know, competing against each other, and I want to be better than you at this thing.
What I would do is have, try and recognize have that student recognize something else, that they maybe do slightly better, you know, like, if I am doing this one thing better than you so you're striving to beat me?
Well, there's probably something else that you do better than I do, because nothing is one dimensional. You know, there's, there's lots of aspects to what we do. And so helping students understand that there are more than one aspect of what we do, and that it's okay to be better at one than the other, and you work towards bringing them all up equally. I think that can help to dissuade that competitive nature.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Sure. For me, it falls back to here's a word we use on the show all the time, ego. And recognizing that if this is the result, it is probably especially in kids from a lack of comfort in who they are that their self-esteem is suffering.
And they see that this aspect of martial arts and not being the best or not being better than the people they identify as their peers, is leaving them with a perception of lack, they are not good enough.
And pointing out other aspects of their training where they are really, I think can go a long way. The younger the person, the harder that is, let's face it, there are some martial arts students who just you know, and they’re not good at anything.
But maybe they show up, maybe they work hard, maybe they smile, maybe they're always kind to other people. Maybe they always pay attention, right? There are aspects to the personal development side of martial arts that are always there, we can always find something, and then you can't find something you're probably not being observed in about.
And as the person ages and you know, let's talk about adults in a moment, because it's a whole different dynamic.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
But as the kids get a little older, and you can start to have a real conversation with them, you know, after class outside of class, and help them understand that. Yeah, we need each other to move forward in martial arts. But it is still an individual sport, it's still a personal journey.
And pointing out where in the adult class or among the older students or the instructor themselves, you know, if I'm having a conversation, let's say with a kid in my class, and I'm the instructor, am I trying to be better than anybody here? Well, no, you're the instructor. You're already better. Well, okay.
What if the only reason I do something is because I want to be better than somebody else? Does that mean I just stopped because I am? And that's going to get some wheels.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah. I understand. Get those gears turning. Yeah, absolutely.
Jeremy Lesniak:
So let's talk about the adults
Andrew Adams:
Sure.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Because the competitive aspect of martial arts for adults can be much quieter, and much more detrimental especially to the culture in a school. You can have one adult come in, linger for the wrong reasons and destroy a school.
Andrew Adams:
Yep, they can be and if you're not careful, they can become cancerous.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah, absolutely. I've seen schools? I will say I've seen a small close because of a single person. But I've seen definitely seen people quit because someone came in wrong reasons.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Instructor didn't do anything about it. And they bailed. It's not good.
Andrew Adams:
No, I've seen it as well.
Jeremy Lesniak:
First off, how do you recognize it? Let's start there. How do you recognize someone training? For with too much emphasis on competition. We could say it another way. How do you spot someone training for the wrong reasons?
Andrew Adams:
I don't know that I have the right answer for that. Because again, there's so many different little things that it could be, could be someone being too aggressive, inspiring.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yep.
Andrew Adams:
That's the biggest one, I think that I've seen.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Anytime in partner work, where a student is going, like there are two ways of conservatives, they're going harder than they need to. And they have enough experience with what is going on, that they could dial it back if they want it, right. Sometimes you get some new students, especially like big guys today and start fiddling. And they're like, they don't know how to be soft. Yeah, so I'm not talking about that.
But someone who's been training for a little bit and they're constantly smashing other people. Or it's not everybody, it's only certain people. Yeah, that they're going really hard with.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah. And it could be the people that are better than them. And so they go harder for that reason. Or it or it could be that. They understand that they could go easier, right? But they, okay, they're reinforcing their place in the pecking order, correct? Yeah. And the other thing is someone coming out and sparring too hard.
Okay, everybody, like gets exuberant. And that could happen. And if the instructor is like, hey, you know, I'm sorry. Yeah, okay, got it, you know, but they can't do that they continually on a regular repeated basis.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And that, I think is where we're going to see it the most, it tends to occur in freeform movement, partner work. And as a good instructor, you're going to see it.
Now, I'm going to guess in your time, there have been people that you've trained with, that you did not want to work with. And the instructor said, okay, grab a partner, you're like, I am working with anyone but them. Yep, I have had those people. And some of it in hindsight was me because I didn't want to compete with that person.
Because I knew if we got together to train, we were going to be competing.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And it wasn't going to be healthy. I didn't have the understanding back then. But now, you know, it's a little bit easier, because if someone's being a jerk, you know, you have the skill to do something I didn't when I was, you know, 110 pounds, five foot two, that that was much shorter than I am, when I weigh a lot more. Are there other ways that's going to surface because I'm thinking of some?
Andrew Adams:
I mean, the only other thing I can think of would be from a, because if it's solo stuff, if you're just doing forums or whatever, it is less, it is more difficult to be competitive, someone in that aspect, unless we're talking about actually going to a competition, and wanting to always beat that person in a forms competition.
But most I think most of this that we're going to see is going to be two people, actually, you know, confronting each other and working together. Are there instances you can think of? Solo stuff, okay?
Jeremy Lesniak:
Okay. So let's say as an instructor, you notice that when a certain person, usually someone they're lining up near or next to, is there someone does really well, when they're not there. They stopped caring, you know, you go from, you know, eight or nine out of 10 to five out of 10. It doesn't happen often with adults, but I've seen it.
Secondly, and this is, this is far more nefarious, intentionally undermining what someone else is doing, either by going to the instructor and saying things by attempting to correct people, either in outside of class, especially, you know, if you and I come up together, and let's say we're both reasonably equal in our skills, you know, like, if I'm way better forms, and we both know it, and we've trained long enough together that I know you appreciate if I'm going to point out something in your form that maybe you're not doing quite right. That's not what I'm talking about.
But if we're roughly equal or you don't appreciate and I know it and I'm coming to you or even in middle class, hey, make sure you did riverboat over that's the same kind of stuff, huh? One of the things I'm fond of telling kids if I'm running a class, you worry about you it's my job to worry about all of it.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
If you're focusing every bit of energy you focus on other people while they're training is energy you can't dedicate.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah, you're missing out on your own.
Jeremy Lesniak:
So that's kind of the general heading of where I would see that individual stuff come up, but it's not often.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah, I can I could see that. That makes sense.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Right on. And, you know.
Andrew Adams:
I don't have anything. I think that's a good place to leave it.
Jeremy Lesniak:
So if we miss something, if you've seen this, if you have further advice, let us know. Email me, Jeremy@whistlekick.com Andrew, we'll talk about it, maybe we'll do a follow up. At the very least if there's stuff that you want to add to this, please make sure you drop it in any of the appropriate places. The Facebook whistle kick martial arts radio behind the scenes, when these episodes go up, there's a place you can comment at whistlekickmartialartsradio.com or YouTube, your common places all over the place. So don't be afraid to add to the conversation other people will benefit from it.
Andrew Adams:
So it only makes it better.
Jeremy Lesniak:
It does. We are better together. Ha as we just talked about, for the right reasons.
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Until next time, train hard smile and have a great day.