Episode 649 - How Much Injury is OK
In this episode, Jeremy and co-host Andrew Adams take on How much injury is OK.
How Much Injury is OK - Episode 649
What could be done in order to train more effectively? On one hand, doing the safest training could be not the most effective, and on the other hand, we can train rougher just to bring out the skills. The latter is more prone to injuries, however, there’s no completely safe training and injuries can happen in all kinds of ways. In this episode, Jeremy and Andrew talk about How Much Injury is OK for a martial artist.
Listen and join the conversation! Watch the video below.
Show Transcript
You can read the transcript below.
Jeremy Lesniak:
What's happening everybody, welcome! You're listening or maybe watching to whistle kick martial arts radio. Andrew, is here with me.
Andrew Adams:
Here I am.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And today's subject is how much injury is okay, we're gonna talk about it. We're gonna figure it out for ourselves and give you some thoughts on how to determine what's an acceptable amount of injury because you know what, we do traditional martial arts and we get banged up. Yep, it happens.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah and it will continue to happen.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Most likely but before we do that, a couple things to keep in mind, if you want to help us out, because putting these shows together cost money, not a lot as you can see from the studio, but some, there's stuff on the back end that cost more money, for sure. The best thing that you can do is go to whistlekick.com use the code, podcast 15, pick up a shirt or something and I was out that way.
You could also leave a review, buy a book on Amazon, you can tell people about the show, maybe share an episode on your social media, you follow us on social media.
We've also got a Patreon patreon.com/whistlekick and on our Patreon, we do exclusive content that you're not going to find anywhere else starts at two bucks a month. And it goes up from there. We have people at every tier we recently had someone jump in, believe it or not at the $100 a month tier. Yep. And there's some really cool stuff that that person's getting on.
Andrew Adams:
And there's some really cool stuff that that person's getting on. And on top of that, you get free merch.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah, at every tier, you're getting free stuff. Free stickers, free posters, free t shirts, sweatshirts, and it's gonna rotate, you know, so it's not like you're going to get the same stuff over and over again, but go to patreon.com/whistlekick, check it out. All the details are there. Very rarely does someone dial back or stop pledging. So we're doing something right. Okay, injury?
Andrew Adams:
Yes. How much of it? Can we have? Can we take?
Jeremy Lesniak:
None.
Andrew Adams:
Alright guys. Thanks for watching.
Jeremy Lesniak:
No, one of the things that we've talked about what, especially when we're talking about self-defense, is this continuum about reality of training versus safety. And actually, we did an episode. I don't remember when it was, it was a few years ago, where I talked about kind of balancing this continuum of safety versus realism. Do you remember? Does that ring a bell?
Andrew Adams:
I don’t. Okay.
Jeremy Lesniak:
It was certainly a Thursday episode. Because let's take the two extremes. If we do the safest training we can, it's not going to be the most effective. You know, there's no contact.
Andrew Adams:
Yep.
Jeremy Lesniak:
In fact, I don't know about you, but I've hurt myself. Solo training, you know, like, you kick wrong, and you're like, ouch, that legs not gonna work for a day or two, right, like, so injury can happen in all kinds of ways. There's no such thing as completely safe training.
But then the other end of the spectrum, if it's just pull out all the time. Contact, no padding, eye gouges, and you can get kicked in the back of the knee at any time in the middle of class. Not going to be able to progress because you'll be constantly broken.
Andrew Adams:
Yep.
Jeremy Lesniak:
So I think we can agree the extreme suck. So we're talking about something in the middle, we're in the middle and helping you determine what's appropriate for you.
Now, if you're an instructor, you've got a burden to shoulder there. And I think that you determine a bit what you think is appropriate for your students and help get them there. Knowing that there is no one size fits all.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah, and everyone's different, for sure.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Everyone is different, you're going to have people who want to go harder, who want to go softer. And that's one of the really difficult responsibilities of an instructors is helping people get the training they need, even if it's not quite what they want, and finding that balance.
So let's put that aside. Because I think this is more of a philosophical experiment than a full on practical one.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
How you take what we're discussing and implement it is going to be entirely up to you. What are the factors that go into determining how much is okay?
Andrew Adams:
Well, I think the first thing to understand is that injury is going to happen. Yes, like there's it is inevitable. If you are going to train for any length of time, some level of injury is going to happen. Whether it's But just a sprained ankle because you came down on it wrong or whenever, or you know, kicking someone and your foot hit their shin and just the wrong way, like injuries gonna happen, I think and knowing that from the outset is important, I think.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I think if you're not going to accept the not just the possibility, but the overtime inevitability, the injury, you're probably not cut out for martial arts. Yeah because again, those injuries aren't always obvious. They don't always happen because someone was negligent. Sometimes it just happens.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah, absolutely.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Sometimes your body was banged up from, you know, mowing the lawn. And that coupled with three or four other things that you weren't thinking about, and then you step out on the floor and your warm ups, not quite adequate. Yeah, we stack all those factors. Next thing, you know, you've thrown your backup.
Andrew Adams:
Exactly. Which leads to a discussion on to me, there's two kinds of injuries. There's an active injury and a passive injury.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Talk about that.
Andrew Adams:
Well, active injury being I did something and something immediately happened. I came down on my foot wrong, and I broke a toe. Yep. Or, you know, C kicked me and I came here and I got like, Oh, really hurt my arm, right? Broke a finger doing some Jiu jitsu technique, and boom, the instructor broke a finger on me like that's an active injury.
To me a passive injury would be I left class feeling pretty good. But then I woke up the next day, it was like, whoa, like, my back is thrown out. And it was fine before you know those things that that you don't necessarily realize at the time
Jeremy Lesniak:
Immediate versus later.
Andrew Adams:
Correct yet, you know, maybe active and passive isn't the right adjective to use. But that's the two types of injuries that I see.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah, I would agree. So if we, if we've got that, it's likely that if we're going to slice it that way, that the passive ones may not be ones that we can discuss as cleanly, I would agree. Yep. Because I think a lot of that is going to be circumstantial and personal driven. Yeah. You know a good example between a whole bunches of core work karate, last week, been on the motorcycle, for a week, I rented my car out, made a few 100 bucks, it's good to work in in the yard a bunch, like my low back is really lit up.
So when I trained last night, it was very careful about what I did. Because I know something could happen.
So that's not the stuff that we're talking about. Because if I stepped in the class, and I let my ego get the best to me, and I went hard, and I came out of class, or even in the middle of class, my back seized up and learn to spasm. Is that a result of the training? Probably not, no, that's a result of all the other stuff. That was just the final straw. So let's talk about the act of that the immediate, the acute sorts of injuries.
We're talking about that continuum, safe, real. Everybody's going to have a different place on there, because their goals are different. And so I think that's the first thing to determine the why, why are you training?
If you're training for fitness, you want to stay as close to safe as possible, because the more injured you get, the less time you're willing to spend training. And that's your fitness goals are going to be on hold more than they're awful.
Yep. And you're gonna sit there and be like, man, I am not moving in the direction I wanted to move. This is not where as you as you as you know, your legs propped up, broken out, you're in the hospital, you're like, I am not getting fitter right now. Right.
But if your goal is realistic training, and, you know we talked about in another episode, one that we just record, I don't know, the order that we're doing these but we talked on another episode about the ability to take a shot. And that being an important part, for some people learning how to conduct themselves in a self-defense situation, you know, you get rocked in the head, being able to shake that off.
Yeah, that's something that someone who's training to be the most effective industry confrontation or competition as possible, really should be learning but not something I'm going to want you know, you know, typical 12 year old to go through.
Andrew Adams:
But let's take it to the extreme, let's say a broken arm. You know, even if I am training to be serious in the street or competition or whatever, I don't want a broken arm and I would make the argument that having a broken arm doesn't help me with that.
It doesn't help me with my trade. It doesn't help me get ready for the street or the cul de sac or whatever. You know, or the competition having a broken arm puts me in the worst position.
Jeremy Lesniak:
So, I think there are two things that we might be able to say at this point and we actually may be honing in on an answer much faster than I was anticipating training that gives you the context for the circumstances in which you want to utilize your training, self-defense, competition, life, right, if you have to break that continuity of training, well, sorry, that was a little type context, if it gives you context that you can use or experience or understanding or whatever word goes in there, then it is good.
If it is giving you context that is beyond what you need, it is beyond the threshold that is dictated by your why, yep, on this continuum, if I'm training for fitness, and I'm constantly coming home, bruised, that that's a sign that I'm going to fall Yeah. Now maybe I'm okay with that. But those dots don't really connect correct?
Andrew Adams:
Yep.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And then the other piece is, does the injury force you to stop training in a way that gives you that context?
Andrew Adams:
Exactly like a broken arm for someone who wants to do a competition.
Jeremy Lesniak:
But let's take because I think it's easier to get far down the scale and walk it back. So if we take the example the person who is training for street defense, you know, they they're their rah about you know, I want to be a BMF when I'm out there, and you know, I want to be as ready as possible. Getting banged up, bruised up, make sense.
Andrew Adams:
Yep, bruises, okay.
Jeremy Lesniak:
But if you break your arm, and then you have to skip a couple weeks of training, that's too far. Now that same person, if they end up with a let's say, a sprained finger or broken finger may still be able to train perhaps may be fine with training you know what I'm gonna you know, I'm going to splint it and when I come into class I'm going to wrap it I'm going to put a pat on it because you know it's entirely possible that I end up on the street and something happens and I lose use of this hand so I want to be able to explore training give myself context experience for training while that hand is at a commission.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah, I could see that okay.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Now that's kind of an extreme fitness is kind of an extreme in the other way for what most people most people have a multi-faceted why?
Andrew Adams:
Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I don't I don't know anybody that trains for one specific reason I don't either.
So let's take someone who's more in the middle. This is probably you're closer to average martial artists probably some like you and I community, self-defense, personal development fitness, you know, they're checking a bunch of boxes they might rearrange them in a different order.
Yeah, then you I'm sure you and I have slightly different priorities when we train.
The point at which injury is too much for me honestly, the number one thing I think for me is when it is the reason I'm injured.
If someone hits me too hard and I come away with like I'm banged up but let's say we clash shins yeah if we clash shins because we're training hard because we're trying to help each other grow. I'm okay with that. I'll probably come back to class Yeah. If we clashes there's a mutual understanding. Yeah, that's what it is.
We clash shins because that person was being arrogant or not falling, not doing the drill the way we were supposed to. And now I'm hurt. I'm not okay with that.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah, I would agree and, and I think it's important to understand that accidents happen. The person was doing the drill wrong, maybe because they didn't understand it. Sure. And they did it once they get corrected, they don't do it again. That's great. But if you have someone in class who is constantly over and over and over again, having these types of situations come up that's a problem.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah for sure. You know, I think I think that if we keep going down this line, I think this is too much of a tangent because we're not talking about why we're talking about how much, so I think we should keep it tight.
Andrew Adams:
I think for me that so when we get into the active injuries, I think to me, it comes down to the two B's bruises and breaks. Really, I mean, sprains, I guess bruises, breaks and sprains PVS that's what we got, catch, breaks, in my opinion, with rare exception are not acceptable. I don't think anyone should be breaking a bone in class, fingers and toes perhaps if that can happen.
Jeremy Lesniak:
It does gonna happen inevitably.
Andrew Adams:
But if it's a regular occurrence, that's a problem that that leads to an issue. If it's an occasional, it happens once every few years. Okay, you know, it does happen, I get that. But I don't know of anyone that has broken a leg or an arm in class. And I can't think of a scenario where that would be okay.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Right? We could talk about why injuries occur. And maybe we should, we should unpack that a little bit. injuries occur when, in my opinion, the progression of whatever's being done, whatever drill is happening, when those steps are taken to quickly either, you know, you jump right in, nobody's sparred in six months, and everybody's put back together.
Alright, let's spar, at whatever level of intensity, you know, people were used to sparring pre those six months, or you're rushing someone's participation in that drill.
So you can you can rush things. So there's a why I think that all that often happens. I keep coming back to the more I'm thinking about this more talking about this, it comes down to does that injury limit, something that is important to me. And we've talked about in context of training, but I think we need to talk about outside training, you know, because we might train an hour to a day, what about the other 20 to 23 hours? If my training limits my lifestyle, that's not okay.
You get examples where, you know, people end up with bruises on their face. You know, I've known a number of martial artists who have jokingly talked about interventions at work, because people thought they were in abusive relationships.
Andrew Adams:
Are you okay?
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah, I just, you know, had a tough martial arts class.
Andrew Adams:
Are you sure? Right?
Jeremy Lesniak:
Because if people don't train, they don't.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah, I understand that.
Jeremy Lesniak:
But I think that it, it all comes down to the why and drawing those limits and knowing what your limits are and being flexible with that limit appropriately.
But it's how that injury impacts your life. If you break a leg, and you can't walk, and your job involves walking.
You know, maybe you're a server at a restaurant and you break your leg, that's a big deal. That's a bigger deal than if you break your leg and your computer analyst. Yeah, and you sit at a desk, for your job.
Not that it should happen for either. But I would guess, if we were to ask the two individuals to rate the impact of that injury on their lives, there would be this server is going to have a stronger response than the analysts. So there's no one size fits all, like everything else that we talked about.
Andrew Adams:
It's definitely different. And it's important for you as a martial artist to think about what is what is acceptable for yourself.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah, you know, having those having that understanding, having clear boundaries, being willing to move slower than those around you. Being willing to have difficult conversations with instructors and fellow students, hey, I'm not comfortable with this intensity. I'm not comfortable at this speed. And make it about you.
You know, it's not about them. You know, instead of saying, you’re going too hard. I'm not comfortable with my ability to respond.
Andrew Adams:
I'm not ready for that. Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And if you're in an environment where that doesn't fly, maybe you have a conversation, a private conversation with the instructor. And if they say, you know what? Tough? Maybe you find a new school. I mean, if that's what if because you only you can determine your lines.
Andrew Adams:
Exactly.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And if they are not comfortable with your level and your line, that's an issue doesn't mean it's wrong.
Andrew Adams:
No, absolutely.
Jeremy Lesniak:
It just means that your why and your comfort level your determination of where you are on this damage level, this injury spectrum may not line up with where you're training. I've been at schools like this. I have been at schools that are they just they just want a bag. All right, you know, it's almost like warm up and basics.
You know, people like when we get to hit each other, you know, it reminds the best analogy in the original Lion King, the hyenas. Oh yeah, they're like, yep. Till we get to eat now, right? And, and then it comes time to grab a partner. And they're just like, all right, boom. And the instructor doesn't even say go and they're just smashing each other.
I don't like that environment. That's not where I want to be. If you spent, you know, more than a few episodes with this show, you know, I like to think about stuff I like to contemplate. I like to move slowly. I like to find my own way. And yeah, I can get out there. I can, you know, I can smash. Yeah, but I want the best of them. But I can you know, and I'm thinking about this stuff is good. And, you know, knowing that it's not what I want every class because I know my body needs to recover. I'm also one of the first people to go, Oh, nope, we're not going there. You just kicked me in the back of the head. And it hurt and we're done. Because if you do a second one, you know, now we're stalking, I know it sounds like I'm talking like I've had a number of my apologies. But it's not worth it.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
No, it's not worth it to me. And I can't say if it is or is not for anyone else.
Andrew Adams:
Yep. For me, bruises are okay. Yep. Brakes are bad.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yep, I would agree.
Andrew Adams:
You know, not bruises every class. But you know, in our school, we do, you know, Japanese cookie, Thai body conditioning, so, you know, hitting arms and, you know, and lightly kicking legs. And it's, you know, I may occasionally get a bruise, that's okay. But we don't do them every class either.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Right? Well, human adaptation comes through not intensity every once in a while, but just going a little bit more than what you were doing frequently. That's how progress happens in everything.
If you want to go really deep on that, read all the science and the flex program that's available for free.
Alright, we got anything else we should know.
Thanks for watching. Thanks for listening, feedback. Give us some feedback. If you have feedback, if you have stories that illustrate this, that you wouldn't mind sharing, this is a good opportunity watch for when we post this. And actually, if you're watching it, it's already been posted in the whistle kick martial arts radio behind the scenes Facebook group, you can post there.
And I mentioned the flex program. We also have strength and conditioning program. We have a speed program. We have a conditioning program, kind of like a cardio conditioning. Now that's a lame way go to whistlekickprograms.com you see all about the programs, they're less expensive than you think flex is free.
There's a bundle we just rolled out new logos for them even renamed them we're in the process of rebranding those programs because they're super cool, and they deserve some attention.
Other things that deserve some attention from you, from us for you, or Patreon, whistle kick, whistlekickmartialartsradio.com, our newsletter, our social media, the books that we have on Amazon, martial journal, you know, talking about martial journal very often. There's a ton of stuff out there.
If you are a martial artist, if you love martial arts, you don't know that you're gonna find a company that is working harder to bring you martial arts stuff because we love martial arts and we want to help you. We want to enable your love of martial arts we want to get you hooked.
Andrew Adams:
Give you access to everything.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah, because you know what, I believe that if people train they become better versions of themselves. And thus, if you're still training, you're still getting better. Okay, if you want to reach out Jeremy@whistlekick.com, Andrew@whistlekickmartialartsradio.com
That's it for now. Until next time, train hard smile, and have a great day.