Episode 647 - How to Fight Chiwetel Ejiofor as Mike Terry in Redbelt
In this episode, Jeremy and co-host Andrew Adams give us a new episode of How To Fight and they are joined by Sensei Greg Williams.
How to Fight Chiwetel Ejiofor as Mike Terry in Redbelt - Episode 647
The 2008 film Redbelt is about Mike Terry (Chiwetel Ejiofor), a jiujitsu trainer who refuses to fight inside the ring, was forced to go back in the ring to make ends meet. Redbelt’s cast includes Chiwetel Ejiofor, Alice Braga, Tim Allen, Emily Mortimer and more. Plus, a bunch of fighters including Randy Couture, Dan Inosanto, Enson Inoue, Ray Mancini, and John Machado.
In this episode, Jeremy, Andrew, and Sensei Greg Williams discuss how are they going to fight Mike Terry by analyzing his stance, style, and moves. Listen and join this fun conversation!
Show Transcript
You can read the transcript below.
Jeremy Lesniak:
What's happening everybody? Welcome this is Whistlekick Martial Arts radio we're doing another How to Fight episode. But this time we're talking about how to fight Chiwetel Ejiofor as Mike Terry in the roof we want to call it classic the movie Red Belt. And of course joined as always on these episode by Andrew Adams. Andrew? Thanks.
Andrew Adams:
How's it going Jeremy?
Jeremy Lesniak:
I'm good. How are you man?
Andrew Adams:
I'm great, great day.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And then bringing him back from Episode 576 he's the one that picked this movie Sensei Greg Williams. Greg, how are you?
Greg Williams:
Good, man. Good to see you guys. Great to be back.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah, yeah, thanks for coming back. Thanks for your willingness to do this. You've got a rather fitting T-shirt on.
Greg Williams:
Yes, Machado brothers from Southern California a big part of this movie. The brothers, Machado brothers is I think there's seven of them and at least two of them maybe three of them were in this movie. He hadn't even seen Rigan.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah.
Greg Williams:
Rigan wasn't in it but I know John Jacques Machado and John Machado both had some pretty decent roles in this.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah, if there's a family known for BJJ beyond the Gracies it's the Machados.
Greg Williams:
Yeah well it's, they are pretty much the closest to the lineage you know, they are the highest.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah.
Greg Williams:
Highest belts along with the Gracies.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah.
Greg Williams:
In Brazilian jujitsu, yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Now when we had you on, you talked a little bit about your experience. You've got some BJJ background correct?
Greg Williams:
With Higa Machado.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Okay, that's what I thought.
Greg Williams:
So yeah, I did train down for a short period of time. I trained with Higa Machado when he was on Pacific Coast Highway one in Redondo Beach, which was kind of like it goes back quite a way so like Eddie Bravo.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Sure.
Greg Williams:
It goes back away like they've moved since then. But so when I say that people will know that this goes back to the mid-90s.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Okay.
Greg Williams:
Mid, maybe late 90s something like that.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Back when very few people were doing it.
Greg Williams:
Yeah, yeah. And it was few and far between so I haven't traveled like an hour and a half from Palmdale California which way up north Laos’s desert.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Wow. It's a hike.
Greg Williams:
It was a hike and that's I mean honestly I was not really filthy rich like I am today you know, as you can see my riches around me back then you know I was struggling you know, I was just moved out to California living with my brother so I couldn't get down to LA as much as I would like to and train with him. But every moment and every second I spent there I loved it. I just I wish I could have done more of it.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah. Nice. Andrew, do you? I've got on record my BJJ experiences can be counted in weeks. How about how about you? What's yours your grappling background?
Andrew Adams:
My BJJ experience can probably be broken down into days.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Days? Okay.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I've got.
Andrew Adams:
I mean.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I have more grappling experience than someone.
Andrew Adams:
Well, I've done a decent amount of Japanese jujitsu.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Sure.
Andrew Adams:
But very little traditional Brazilian.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Okay.
Greg Williams:
So my style.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah.
Greg Williams:
Is primarily Japanese Jiu-jitsu but if I had to fight you two guys, I think now you just taught me how to fight it. I'd take you back to the ground. Because you just gave up limited experience. Yeah.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah.
Greg Williams:
But most primarily.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Don't under estimate.
Greg Williams:
My style is Brazilian is not Brazilian jujitsu but traditional Japanese jujitsu submission, which cross actually crosses over quite a bit.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah.
Greg Williams:
Because Brazilian jujitsu came from Maeda who bought the Gracies Japanese jujitsu and they incorporated that into their own style in Brazil.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah. It's, we talked about this on the show all the time, you know, all these techniques that are written that people say oh, they stole or they you know, there's only so many ways you can do this.
Greg Williams:
Right.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Somebody has you in some kind of hold you know, you've got a very few ways that you're coming out of that without injury.
Greg Williams:
Yeah, yeah, that's very true I think you know, martial movement. First of all, a friend of mine always says martial movements, martial movement, you know, move like a martial artists as a certain number of common denominators that you know, balance and focus and focusing your energy on certain aspects and know what to look for but martial movements, martial movement, and like a postmodern theory, everything has been done. So you know, martial arts goes back so far.
Andrew Adams:
Yep.
Greg Williams:
Everything has been looked at dissected and you might look new, I mean, I remember even the Gracies when people started, Gracie started to become popular and Machado started to become popular. Like oh my god, this is new and then you would show them like an old video of like, Yeah, black and white video somebody from like, 1900 from somebody in a Jujigatame arm bar. It's like, wait a minute, that's, that didn't come around to the Gracies in the 50s. No, it goes way back to the samurai it, you know it's just how they blend it and how they, where they put the emphasis. And that type of stuff is really, you know, that's what makes their style their own. And that's what, you know, that's what I think we're all we're all kind of tasked to doing martial arts is take what you learn, and make it your own and fit you and your style and you can create, you know, create anything out of the movements. So they just got a very popular style. They had a very popular style based on a lot of the fact that a lot of people were percussive and striking. There wasn't a lot of a lot of judo, which translates.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah.
Greg Williams:
Really well on the ground because that's half on the ground, half standing up, but a lot of people weren't used to fighting on the ground. That's how that's how this sport became popular. I was around when they were going around, building Brazilian jujitsu building this sport. And you know, I did train with Orion and Haitang. Orion and twice way back before they were popular, they were going around doing the $100,000 challenge where they would put their money up.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Oh, yeah.
Greg Williams:
Yeah. So I mean.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I remember that.
Greg Williams:
Yeah. I mean, I was around when they were doing that. And you know, that popularized the support because.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Sure.
Greg Williams:
It mostly striking if you get, if you're here on somebody, they can't strike you, and you're on the ground, then it's the world they weren't familiar with. And they had the advantage.
Jeremy Lesniak:
That actually comes into play briefly in the movie. So why did you want to do this movie? Why do you want to unpack this one?
Greg Williams:
Well, because I have a lot of have a lot of knowledge of some of the participants in the movie. I'll be honest, I'm from those I was immersed in that world. This movie came out in 2008. I was immersed in that world in the early in the late 90s. So this is shortly not that long after I moved out here in 2001. I don't know, you know who directed the movie was David Mamet right?
Jeremy Lesniak:
Now, I recognize that name but I'm not quite sure why I didn't go down.
Greg Williams:
Glengarry Glen Ross. He's a famous.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Never seen that.
Greg Williams:
Screenplay. Oh, it's a great movie. You got to see that movie.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I've heard it's a great movie.
Greg Williams:
He's one of the foremost playwrights of our generation. And he's very, if you look him up, you'll see he's done. He's done a ton of stuff. Really high and really great stuff. Glengarry Glen Ross is one of my favorite movies. Actually. He went to college at Goddard in Plainfield.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Oh, like right there?
Greg Williams:
Yes like literally right by you, Jeremy.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And I lived in the apartments off daughtered for you.
Greg Williams:
And did you know?
Jeremy Lesniak:
So yeah.
Greg Williams:
That a bunch of his actor friends that became famous also went to college with him.
Jeremy Lesniak:
No, no, I didn't.
Greg Williams:
Like do you know who William H. Macy is?
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah.
Greg Williams:
Went to Goddard.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Did he go to Goddard?
Greg Williams:
With David Mamet.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah.
Greg Williams:
Yeah. David Mamet.
Jeremy Lesniak:
That's a riot.
Greg Williams:
Mamet. Mamet, how are you going to?
Andrew Adams:
And he studied. He studied jujitsu for six or seven years before he wrote this movie.
Greg Williams:
He was a purple belt under Renato Magno, who came out to teach for Machado. And when it came out to teach Machados he taught in the school closer to me, and I went down and trained with him a few times as well. So I knew Renato that's why I that's why I love this movie, because I'm like, I know that dude. I know that, you know.
Andrew Adams:
Gotcha.
Greg Williams:
Just seeing all these people that I knew. And I knew Renato, he, I knew that he was he's a very, very good instructor. Really good guy. And I guess he promoted David. David Mamet to purple belt.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Cool.
Greg Williams:
Yeah. So he was one of the instructors like the Gracies trained John Molinas. You know, like the director, John Molina. You know, they were Hollywood. People were getting into like Ed O'Neill.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah.
Greg Williams:
Who was in the movie?
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah.
Greg Williams:
Ed O'Neill is in red belt also.
Jeremy Lesniak:
It's a small it's a small piece, but he's a he's a black belt.
Greg Williams:
Yeah, yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
But he's going to be jj black and has been for a while.
Greg Williams:
Yes.
Andrew Adams:
Long time.
Greg Williams:
Yeah. Very serious about it. Well, I understand.
Jeremy Lesniak:
So that's I find that really cool. Now one other and Andrew and I were talking about this. We both missed it in the film. It was after the fact.
Andrew Adams:
No, I didn't miss it in the film.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Oh, you didn't?
Andrew Adams:
No.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Okay. I missed it. Sorry. I misunderstood. I missed it in film. That Dan Inosanto was in there. I was like, who’s that guy?
Greg Williams:
Yeah. Do you know why Danny.
Jeremy Lesniak:
You would think I would have recognized him. I didn’t.
Greg Williams:
You know, why Danny Inosanto is in the movie?
Jeremy Lesniak:
No.
Greg Williams:
Because he's a very high belt under the Machado. He studies with Machados. When I used to go to Redondo Beach to train, I, I knew, say I knew Dan Inosanto from Wally Jay. Wally Jay was good friends with him when Wally Jay.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yup.
Greg Williams:
Would come down to LA, he would come in, maybe do a seminar I school, he would also go down to visit Dan Inosanto and kind of kill two birds with one stone because he was coming from San Francisco or open Alameda. So we would go down there to meet Dan Inosanto and come up and do one at my school. And I got to meet Professor Dan, Professor Inosanto. And then when I was starting training a little bit later, with Machados, I would be going into class was maybe a 10 o'clock class. And he'd be finishing up to nine o'clock to 10 o'clock private. So we passed and be like, Hey, how you doing? I would always bow because that that dude is just.
Jeremy Lesniak:
He's royalty.
Greg Williams:
He's about.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah.
Greg Williams:
As real as he gets to the martial arts. I mean, Bruce Lee's protégé. And, you know, so Wally Jay and Bruce Lee, we're very close. So they had a great friendship. And, you know, so I would go down there and I would, in passing I would seem and be like, Wow, this is so awesome. You know, like, I'm here I am. It's like nobody else around and I'm passing Dan Inosanto.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah.
Greg Williams:
For a class. And then I did see later on, you know, he's achieved a very, very high ranking Brazilian jujitsu with metallic rose, which speaks to his speaks to his, his philosophies.
Jeremy Lesniak:
He likes to learn.
Greg Williams:
Yeah, his life, his philosophy of training in different styles and.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah.
Greg Williams:
Learning as much as you can, as for as long as you can. I mean, he's not a, he's not a young guy anymore.
Jeremy Lesniak:
11:50
Greg Williams:
But he's, you know, and I give him so much credit. And I really, I think I respect him, probably more than more than anybody in martial arts really, for what he's done, who is affected.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah.
Greg Williams:
He's a great, and he seems to be such a great guy. So.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah, yes.
Greg Williams:
I love Dan Inosanto.
Jeremy Lesniak:
So let's, let's, let's start digging into it.
Greg Williams:
Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And actually, before we get there, there's one piece and I've got to say this, and I think the three of us need to chat about there just for a minute or two. There's a moment in this film. That I think is a complete breakdown of everything the martial arts stands for, and I don't know how it made it in this film. And you you're nodding your head, Greg, I'm guessing you know what I'm talking about.
Greg Williams:
I've noticed a couple of moments, but go ahead.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I messaged Andrew, while watching it, I almost had to stop watching the movie because it was so abrupt. And so it seemed so representative of people who, it didn't make sense to me, and it's the moment where the woman says, I was raped. And, and
Greg Williams:
He grabs her.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Mike Terry grabs a knife and puts it to her throat. Immediately after that. I've never known an instructor who would respond in that way. If I did, I would probably never speak to them or be in their company. And I can't imagine they would retain students because that is so over the top and insensitive and arrogant and so many other words that I'm just not going to use on this show.
Greg Williams:
Yeah, I would have to agree. But I will also have the caveat that I mean, in a movie context. Yeah, it's wrong. I totally agree. I've dealt with students that had this PTSD as she seemed to have around this subject and about this type of thing. And the only way the way I really broke through it was to have them fight through that scenario. That being said, I didn't just do it right there.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And that's the key. It wasn't in the first 15 minutes you knew them.
Andrew Adams:
That's the big.
Greg Williams:
Seconds after she.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah.
Greg Williams:
Tells me right like this is.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah.
Greg Williams:
So there was a lot of talk and like okay this planning this is what we're going to do if you ever feel uncomfortable, you know, I'll back off but we need to push the limits so that you're not so that you are you don't black out I had a student.
Andrew Adams:
That's very different.
Greg Williams:
You just the blackout when somebody would, like, overpower her. There was something going on. And we fought through that. But yeah, there was a lot of talk and a lot of yeah, a lot of things to make sure that the individuals safe for sure.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah, my wife, you know, if you've watched all the how to fight, you've noticed that my wife has always watched with me. Due to circumstances beyond my control she was not able to watch the movie with me this time. And it's good because she would have gotten up and walked out and not watch the rest of them for that one scene?
Greg Williams:
You know.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah.
Greg Williams:
I'll tell you something. When I watched this and when I thought about it, you know, David Mamet is a very, very accomplished and revered screenwriter and playwright. And I was going to, you know, I, I don't want to criticize his writing, you know, I don't want I don't like to criticize. I do agree with you on these points. I, I feel like, without getting political, he shifted from, from very left to almost far right. And this is almost he's very much against political correctness. From what I understand from what I've read about him. You know, he didn't.
Jeremy Lesniak:
You think that's how it showed up? In his writing that it was almost uh.
Greg Williams:
I think so. I think he's like I don't care.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Okay, I can see that.
Greg Williams:
You know, I think there's a certain.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah.
Greg Williams:
Boldness to his action. And, you know, so what if it pisses off? People? You know.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Sure. The only reason I felt we needed to say that was one people needed to be prepared. Because it's a, it is a situation that when it comes up and film can be difficult for people.
Greg Williams:
Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And then to anytime I think someone misrepresents the martial arts and what happens in the martial arts in a negative light such that it might impact someone else? Training? I'm going to I'm going to speak on it.
Greg Williams:
Yeah, that you should. Well, you should.
Andrew Adams:
That's fair.
Jeremy Lesniak:
So let's, let's start digging into it. How? How would you fight Mike Terry? You know, as we go through the film, you know, what you saw, Greg, that you were noticing, oh, okay. I would, you know, I remember this, I'd avoid this and go after that.
Greg Williams:
Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
How do you build your fight strategy?
Greg Williams:
Well, right off the bat, you know, Brazilian Jiu-jitsu is a sport. And, you know, if I was fighting him in the final scene, it'd be different than if I was biting him. If they went into the ring or the cage, you know, so we have to qualify or quantify that, like, it's, you know, I make a clear difference between a street fight and a cage fight sanctioned.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Sure.
Greg Williams:
Or not sanctioned you know, if you're in a cage, and there's rules, there's rules, there's no such thing as a dirty fight for me if it's a fight for your life, so I would, I would be real dirty. It'd be real dirty and you know, they focused a lot and I liked the fact that they had some really clean Judo techniques they had good bros they had there wasn't a whole lot of wrestling takedowns and stuff there were a few but it seemed like a lot of the stand up to ground was you know, hip tosses, a lot of hip toss bros, a lot of enclosed maybe Kubi Nage or Otoshi, you know, some Judo throws, which I like I would, number one, I would counter I would counter those by not letting my hips get in there, or by creating separation of our hips, but I would fight really, I really would fight dirty I would go a little I'm keeping a lot more distance and I would really use my striking boxing a lot more because you see this shift even from what was really popular a 2008 and MMA you know, the curve is going up and down like it'll go from Gracie starting with brown grappling. And then once people figure that out, they had to figure out how to not get into the ground, so strike and then wrestlers became really powerful and strong because they figured out where the Brazilian jujitsu game was going, not that they could nullified completely became more wrestling heavy, then it became more striking heavy, you know, staying on the outside. So I think at this particular point in 2008, I would really use a lot of footwork to stay outside and drop shots from more maybe even more of a karate style where I would do a lot more up kick and you know, maybe not even kick so much but my hands from a distance, and I would I would keep angles and distance really in my favor as much as I could really make them work for that takedown. Anti-tip wrestling takedowns anti Judo techniques.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Andrew, we've really only got a few scenes that we can pull from of course we've got that big fight at the end.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah. Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And we've got a few things sprinkled throughout. You know, I'm guessing you were you were putting some pieces together long before that final fight, you know.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
What sort of stuff were you seeing?
Andrew Adams:
So in this, the first actual fight that he gets into was in the bar. And, you know, my first initial thought was, why didn't he just walk away? Like, why did he have to get involved in the first place? That surprised me a little bit. You know, the, you know, he did say, and later on the movie, the hardest step is to leave the outside, outside, like he could have just been outside. So I was surprised at that. But when he finally did get involved in the fight, he was very good with the with his cane, right, using an improvised weapon, just he have grabbed the cane, use it, like in a scrim stick, it was really good. He also did a really good job with a situational awareness, right? He got a guy down on the ground and had him in a lock, but was aware enough to be continually looking around him and defend himself against other people that were standing up. And so you know, he's obviously very observational in his fighting.
Greg Williams:
That's a, that's a really good point. He was like on one knee. And he had that.
Andrew Adams:
Yep.
Greg Williams:
Cane locked around in the choke. It was good. And actually the guy he was choking. Okay, and so that was, I bet you I bet you couldn't tell me who it was. But I can.
Andrew Adams:
No idea, he was a bad guy. That's all I can tell you.
Greg Williams:
His name is Dennis Keiffer. He shows up in a lot of movies as a bad guy. He's a sun fighter. And I was part of the he was part of the stunt team that I was on with Benny Ortez.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Oh cool.
Greg Williams:
About six or seven people. And I'm like, I see him pop up everywhere. This guy. I mean, he's got a great look for bad guy. He's actually pretty good looking guy. And he, he shows up everywhere. And I was like, there's Dennis Keiffer in his stuff. That's cool. You know? So yeah, it was fun to see him in that and you're I agree with you. 1,000% very aware of the next attack coming when he's down there, it was good to see that instead of him having his eyes and his head down. Focusing on choke.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah.
Greg Williams:
Was somebody could come and kick them in the head. So yeah, that's a great observation.
Jeremy Lesniak:
The first thing I noticed was actually something I noticed pretty much throughout his principles. To the point of arrogance. He, this character Mike Terry is about as arrogant as a guy is I've seen and you see it happening to all these little ways. You know, not avoiding fights, when he can. His virtual indifference at having his window shot out. I mean, the number of things that had to go wrong for that to happen. Just blew my mind. I was sitting there, because it's the beginning of the movie, and I'm just going.
Greg Williams:
Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Why is your gut out? Why is around chambered? Why is no one saying anything? Who is this woman? Why is no one addressing her like?
Greg Williams:
Oh, and you got kicked off the force? I'll take care of it. I'll take care. Don't worry about it. Don't worry about I got kicked off. I know. It's just your livelihood, and your job and your family. But you made a couple of minutes I'll go to talk to somebody and see what I can do. And I'm going to go find out why the guy gave me a hot watch. Like, I mean, yeah, it was arrogant, and then even walking through at the final scene when plowing through everybody. You know, go ahead.
Andrew Adams:
I made it. I made I made a note that when he's trying to get to Dylan Flynn played by, you know, UFC champion, Randy Couture, right? When he's trying to get to Dylan Flynn and get to the stage. Why isn't he moving with purpose? But why me? Why isn't he jogging, sprinting, running? He's just slowly walking.
Greg Williams:
That way he could fight everybody.
Andrew Adams:
Why?
Greg Williams:
That way he can fight.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah. But it was very urgent.
Greg Williams:
Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And I will say that when he did that, like his movements were good. Whoever choreographed that did a phenomenal job. Very tight. Very good movement. I like that part.
Greg Williams:
Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
But I think you know, we've all had enough freeform movement with partners, that arrogant fighters, they always get what's coming to them. You know, that's the irony of being arrogant is that? It's never someone really good. Who takes you out? It's someone you completely underestimate.
Greg Williams:
Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And.
Andrew Adams:
Yup.
Greg Williams:
That’s about all I would have going for me. Because he's a little bigger than I am. He's not a lot bigger than I am. But big enough that, you know, with my grappling skills at the moment, he locks me up. I'm probably done other than the fact that you know, depending on what the situation is, you know, I'm a fighter. I don't mind you know, I'll take it. I'll take a chunk out of your out of your ribs.
Jeremy Lesniak:
That's fine. And maybe that would give me enough space. But I think other than that, yeah, I'm going to have to stand up and I'm going to have to coax him into doing something that he thinks is beneath him.
Greg Williams:
So you're saying you would fight dirty also?
Jeremy Lesniak:
Oh, yeah, I, I would always fight dirty.
Greg Williams:
Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
With a guy like this, who I don't think has a non-dirty way of fighting. There was nothing we saw that that despite what he said his principles did not seem to extend to his technique, his willingness to take things to a violent place beyond where they needed to be, suggests that the backstory on this character is horribly conflicted.
Greg Williams:
Yeah, you know, the writer, and director really is known for having a lot of dialogue. You know, and I almost feel like a disconnect between, like these really cool fight scenes in the dialogue and what's going on, like you say, behind the scenes, what's going on, in their head behind this like, it doesn't, it seems a little incongruous to have, you know, these principles and values, but then these cool fight scenes.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah.
Greg Williams:
And a lot of times, it was just a, there was a lot going on. And I think that's probably ultimately what kept us where we've been really, success really successful. I mean, it was a good movie. But it's not, it could be so much better. It could be so much better if I think a lot of those holes that you talk about were filled in and he was a little more virtuous, and portrayed himself more virtuous in his actions, as opposed to just what he was saying.
Andrew Adams:
Now this, is this, the first real like big movie, I mean, I say put big and costs wasn't huge, but like, first mainstream movie that really focused on BJJ? I mean, this is.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I think so.
Andrew Adams:
I mean, that's the first movie we've done and how to fight that has that but whether other movies that really were as big as this that focused on BJJ stuff.
Greg Williams:
I will tell you that these guys Machado brothers. No, no, I'm sorry. Take that back. The Gracies choreograph lethal weapon, the fight scene? You remember the final fight scene?
Andrew Adams:
Yeah.
Greg Williams:
With the weapon with the rain coming down? On the front lawn?
Jeremy Lesniak:
I think.
Andrew Adams:
But I would say Greg.
Greg Williams:
Yeah.
Andrew Adams:
That that's but that movie is not a movie about BJJ.
Greg Williams:
Correct.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Right.
Andrew Adams:
Right. There that I mean, they're way have been movies that had BJJ in it, but I'm talking about this movie was clearly about BJJ. And I think a lot of the issues that we have with the movie, it kind of paint BJJ in a bad light.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah, and really disappointing. It's really unfortunate.
Andrew Adams:
I agree, because I don't think it's all like that. But I think there are some bad stereotypes in it. About the BJJ community that I don't think this would be helped a swag.
Greg Williams:
That's a good point. Because you know.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I agree. I
Greg Williams:
If he's the director of being a purple belt, and really falling in love with the art and putting the time in to get there and training with these people who I know are great. These are great. These are.
Andrew Adams:
Yep, yeah.
Greg Williams:
I mean, they're the good guys of BJJ. They're really.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah.
Greg Williams:
Really like, if I, if I ever see him, if he comes up here, I go to California, and I see him. It's like, the love is tremendous. You know, he's just a really great guy. And then a lot of them are like that. And it's weird that the director might have sacrificed so that for a storyline. And for, you know, the sake of the dialogue, why wouldn't he go the other direction? You know, and make it really highlight all the great aspects of it. Of you know, and what will we have we seen that does that the maybe warrior? Like that that's a cage fighting movie. That's not BJJ. There was one that just came out. I can't, I honestly can't remember it. And I remember watching it, it was, it was about a guy that owns a BJJ gym. And when I watched it, I just said, you know it could be so much better, could be so much more inspirational. We've done better. And I guess it's up to us to create that movie. Or me.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah.
Greg Williams:
You guys, you guys can help me but I mean I'll choreograph
Jeremy Lesniak:
Sure.
Andrew Adams:
Sure.
Jeremy Lesniak:
You know I don't say no to hard work and effort that has no financial return? Kind of the story of my life.
Greg Williams:
If we make a great BJJ movie that's inspirational and uplifting and phenomenal. I think there's a market there. They make a lot of money. I think the art by.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I agree.
Greg Williams:
Making that movie. So many people love it.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah.
Greg Williams:
Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I felt like there were some scenes that might have been cut. Just the flow of the movie. There were some things and it was already an hour and a half hour 36.
Greg Williams:
Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I felt like maybe there were some things getting trimmed. The budget was 7 million it made half of that. Not even half that at the box office.
Greg Williams:
Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
So you know, I'm wondering if things got away from them. You know, when they made some sacrifices in editing or something to save some. Save some money?
Greg Williams:
Yeah, it looks like the budget was really it was a lot of was the heavy, heavy, some heavy actors in me Jennifer Grey.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah. Tim Allen.
Greg Williams:
Tim Allen. Joe Montana. David Neymar. Those.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah.
Greg Williams:
Even Ricky? What's his name? Oh, come on. Ricky. Ricky J. Ricky J. The heavy guy with the beard promoter.
Andrew Adams:
Oh, yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I didn't recognize.
Greg Williams:
From Boogie Nights. He was like.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah.
Greg Williams:
One of the camera, the camera man or one of the guys in Boogie Nights. He's also a comedian, Ricky J. Yeah.
Andrew Adams:
But yeah, you're right. The actor fees would have been pretty pricey for this.
Greg Williams:
A lot a lot of budget. Ed O'Nielle.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Let's bring it back. Let's dig in on the weaknesses. Because I think we're pretty much on the same page on the strengths, his grappling is a strength. He's strong, he's got decent technique. But where are the holes.
Greg Williams:
No striking. No.
Jeremy Lesniak:
No striking.
Greg Williams:
No striking, no distance. No, no real, you know, no display of footwork. If it's going on, you don't they don't highlight it. You don't see it. I mean, I know it's not a boxing movie. But any kind of MMA fighter, you got paid footwork, it's exposed right away, whether it be stand up or on the ground, you got to be, you got to be able to move like the martial artists. And i might have been there, but it wasn't really displayed. You know, they didn't.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And if it if we didn't see it, it doesn't exist.
Greg Williams:
Right. That's right.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Those are our rules on this show.
Greg Williams:
That's right. And a lot of the shots were, you know, in close and tight. And that's a trick too. It's a real trick to film rappelling to real trick the film to that close in stuff. It's not easy. It's hard to make a translate, and I think they did a good job with that. But then again, when you talk about a weakness, distancing and striking.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Andrew, anything that we're.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
We've missed. I don't really you missed it for me if I was going to have to get into an altercation with him. Absolutely, I'm not getting anywhere close to him. He is way too good. And my jujitsu, BJJ or Japanese otherwise, is not nearly as good as his. So I'm staying on the outside for sure. And he also has really good upper body movement, like he was good at maneuvering like a boxer would. So when I do come in with my strikes, and it would absolutely be strikes, I'm not actually going to go full force with everything, because it's going to leave and extended, it's going to be more lots of smaller jabs, which will be harder to for him to grab on to keeping away with that footwork. And then all of my kicks are going to be to his knee and lower. I'm not I don't want my kick anywhere up by his waist where he can easily catch it because I'm screwed at that point. So it's working the angles popping, you know, little jabs here and there not going for full power. I'd rather wear him down little by little. And keeping those kicks those kicks nice in low.
Greg Williams:
Totally agree. Totally agree. And here's is where I mean, the mean now as opposed to me back then would fight. If I'd throw my kicks my butt, I wish I'd throw one kick high by his head. And I'd make sure it was far enough where it couldn't catch it, because I want to see how he reacts to it. I want to see the reaction.
Andrew Adams:
Yup. Okay.
Greg Williams:
And I tell my fighters, when I used to coach MMA, I tell them, you know, throw that out there and watch for the reaction. And I would also throw a lot of fakes. I would throw a lot of kick fakes and a lot of shoulder fakes to see and get a read on how they react. Because if they're dropping levels every time you go to throw a high kick and you're dropping their levels, and you fake the high kick, and you come up the middle with a medium range or medium level kick to the face. Yeah.
Andrew Adams:
What about you? What about you, Jeremy?
Jeremy Lesniak:
I think the big thing that that I'm remembering is that he didn't seem to know what to do with getting punched and getting kicked. You know, as someone who was probably more of a career Grappler than a career fighter. You know, certainly he knew how to take a shot but there's that that part at the end where you know is is getting choked and you know, it sucks, you can tell he's not enjoying it. But he's comfortable. He's been there before, he's been there a bunch of times.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
But when he's getting punched in the face, his hands aren't even coming up late, they're just not coming up. And I think that that's what I would have to do now, Now typically on how to fight because I'm a smaller guy, I'm talking a lot about leg kicks. And I think I'm still talking leg kicks, but in a different way. Instead of a front, you know, a forward facing stance, which is what he's going to be used to, it's what he's going to expect, I'm turning sideways, and I'm attacking that knee. And that thought, probably with a lot of movement, you know, I'm, I'm bouncing around, I'm launching off that back foot. And I'm looking at to, to break down that thigh.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Because if he can't stand, he can't fight. And I think that that's probably my best shot. I probably only have two of those before he gets wise. And so I'm doing something, you know, fakes I'm, you know, throwing something high, trying to confuse him as to what I'm going to do. And seeing what happens.
Andrew Adams:
That makes sense.
Greg Williams:
Yeah. Yeah, I would just be weary very weary of, if you turn too far to the side that they get around your back. You know, that's, that's what I would really look out for. But yeah, I have no problem with that at all. You know, using your kicks, less low kicks, that would definitely be the way to go.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Anything we've missed?
Andrew Adams:
From the movie? I don't think so.
Greg Williams:
I would like I wanted to talk about the kind of the overarching the whole premise and everything. Like.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Let's wrap up with that.
Greg Williams:
I still use. I still use the analogy. There's always a way out. Right? Like even from watching this.
Jeremy Lesniak:
That was the best part of the movie and that backflip.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah.
Greg Williams:
Cause he started out with that in the very beginning. He's telling the police officer, breathe, and relax. There's always a way out, you know, and we all know that martial arts said, you got to stay calm. So he's taught he's telling us to stay calm and tell him this guy to stay calm. And then he practices what he preaches at the very end because he stays calm as he's getting choked, like you said, and then he runs up the wall does a backflip. I mean, I thought that was pretty cool. Unrealistic.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's good.
Greg Williams:
I would just want to know what how come right after that, when he choked John Machado, why didn't John Machado run up the wall and do it, they could just keep doing it again. And again. That would be pretty funny. But, um, but I like I like, you know, that there's always a way out as a philosophy of life, you know. And I think the, the police officer that that took his life by suicide, I think, you know, he didn't get that he didn't, there is a way out of that problem. You know, that, like, you know, we have to make sure that we let people know, it's never that bad. It's never that bad that no, there's not a way out. There's always a way out. Might not always be great. It might not always be rainbows and unicorns, but it is. That's not.
Andrew Adams:
There's always a way.
Greg Williams:
That is not the way out.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I agree.
Andrew Adams:
I liked that message from the movie, for sure. It was definitely one of the things I liked the most. The other thing that I really liked was actually the concept of occasionally training with an impairment. You know, having to draw the rock, like, that's very realistic, because it might happen. You know, I mean, it sounds gruesome, but we sometimes in our dojo, we will get will get on our belly and have to move from one side of the floor to the other using only our arms, no legs at all. And my Sensei says, what if you are, God forbid, in a car accident, and you have to get from point A to point B, because your legs are broken, right? I mean, it might happen that you have to defend yourself with only one arm. And I think that was really, really cool. And pretty realistic. Is it something that an actual tournament would ever do? Absolutely not. It was really good for the movie. And it's really cool thing to do in real life, but obviously when in a in an actual tournament, they would never do that.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah.
Greg Williams:
Yeah, I agree.
Jeremy Lesniak:
You know, the escape. You know, the.
Andrew Adams:
Yep.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I didn't like it at the beginning when he was saying it, you know, 46 times. But when he he lived to he lived to that rep that advice at the end, I thought that was that was pretty powerful. And that's the common threat. I mean, you guys have both hit on it in different ways. That was absolutely the common threat.
Greg Williams:
Yeah, I agree. You know, we when we do boxing drills, you know, he talked about head movement. So moving side to side back, whatever. I have my students tie their hands behind the back and the other person, not throwing hard because they're in a disadvantage. Learn to move your head without your hands up, you know. So learn how to be fluid and get comfortable, then it becomes so much easier when your hands are up. So those are the type of feels we do.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Great point. All right. Greg thanks for being here. Thanks for doing this. I wouldn't have watched this movie otherwise. This I remember when it came out it slipped through, I forgot about it so I’m glad that we had the chance to do this.
Greg Williams:
Yeah and I know we criticized a little bit but it is just a movie.
Jeremy Lesniak:
That’s okay. We criticize all the movies.
Greg Williams:
I know right.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Martial artists watching a martial arts movie, of course we're going to criticize.
Greg Williams:
Of course we're going to really rip it apart.
Andrew Adams:
The only one that doesn't deserve it is best of the best obviously.
Greg Williams:
Oh here we go.
Andrew Adams:
But the last thing I would like to say is that.
Jeremy Lesniak:
How do i mute you? Where’s that button? You don't have a button I can mute you? Here it is.
Andrew Adams:
If and we say this at the end of most of our how to fights that if Chiwetel would like to come on.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah.
Andrew Adams:
We would love to have him come on. And Greg hopefully you'd come back and do a wrap up with Chiwetel if he came back.
Greg Williams:
You know, bring him on and um I would love to do that man. I love you guys for doing this, I really appreciate you bringing me on. This is I love this, this is great. It's my passion. I love, I love films and I love martial arts so nothing better,
Jeremy Lesniak:
Awesome,
Greg Williams:
And I love you two so.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Thank you. Thanks man. Thanks for coming on.
Greg Williams:
Thank you.
Jeremy Lesniak:
You watching, you know what did you think did we miss something? Is there something that you want to respond? The best thing to do is to comment in one of the many places whether it's the Facebook, behind the scenes group or we post this video. Yeah there's a video version on YouTube page so check that out let us know what you think and if you've got ideas for a future how to fight let us hear that too, so thanks everybody until next time. Train hard. Smile and have a great day.