Episode 645 - Training Under Confusion
Training Under Confusion - Episode 643
In this episode, Jeremy and co-host Andrew Adams take on Training Under Confusion.
Training Under Confusion - Episode 643
There are times that we are not in the right balance maybe because of fatigue or sleep deprivation. Or if the moment someone hit you at the back of your head and you become dazed and unable to find your footing. How do we react or even perform at these very confusing moments? In this episode, Jeremy and Andrew talk about training under confusion and what could one do to overcome the situation.
Listen and join the conversation! Watch the video below.
Training Under Confusion - Episode 643
Show Transcript
You can read the transcript below.
Jeremy Lesniak:
What's happening everybody? Welcome, this is Whistlekick Martial Arts Radio. And today Andrew and I are talking about training under confusion and maybe even training for confusion.
Andrew Adams:
With confusion.
Jeremy Lesniak:
With confusion, near confusion, in and around. Actually, this all makes far more sense than they probably realized based on what we're going to talk about. If you're new to the show, you've picked a weird one to come in on. Welcome to everyone who is returning. Thank you, of course, thank you for your support. I'm Jeremy Lesniak founder here at Whistlekick, Andrew Adams, and my wonderful.
Andrew Adams:
Part time cohost.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Host and esteemed, you are esteemed. And what do we do at Whistlekick we do stuff for traditional martial artists and the traditional martial arts including the show which falls under the heading of connecting, educating and entertaining. Those of you out there who love traditional martial arts? That's me, that's you. Probably you too. If you're listening know that there is a video version of this episode and you get to see my television. As well as us our shining faces with professional lighting took us way too long to set up. Alright, a couple other quick housekeeping things before we really dig in. If you want to support what we do go to whictlekick.com check out all the stuff use the code podcast 15 to make a purchase. Don't forget you can leave reviews, share episodes, anything that seems like it makes sense to help us out. We appreciate and of course we've got a Patreon patreon.com/whistlekick. Last thing I put up on Patreon I did a video episode last week. Do you watch it?
Andrew Adams:
No.
Jeremy Lesniak:
You're going to see it?
Andrew Adams:
I haven't had a chance.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I don't even remember what it was about. And now I'm really embarrassed.
Andrew Adams:
Okay. It's almost like we do at Whistlekick we do a lot,
Jeremy Lesniak:
We kind of do a lot of stuff. And alright, so let's just let's dig in. So training under confusion. Now the irony of this is that I am sleep deprived right now, not because of any wonderful reasons, you know, I wasn't like Up lay training, I wasn't out late hanging out with friends.
Andrew Adams:
We didn't plan this episode 2:19.
Jeremy Lesniak:
We did not plan this at all. I just woke up at like quarter four and could not get back to sleep, which is not a common occurrence for me. So I'm, I'm exhausted. And it's fitting. Because when we train, when we think about training, and when we think about the environments in which we're going to utilize our training, whether that's competition, or self-defense, we tend to forget that we're not always at our best.
Andrew Adams:
Absolutely, yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Oh, well, I'm just going to be able to or, you know, I always perform better under pressure. What about when you don't? What about when you've had six cups of coffee? I think I'm at three, when you've had six cups of coffee, and your brain doesn't work, right? What about when you get mugged coming out of the bar at 2am. And you know what? You are going to take an Uber because you've had too many to drink.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah. Or even if you yourself are not impaired, but someone gets you in a position. And you get stunned and dazed.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah.
Andrew Adams:
And you're not sure what's going on.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And honestly, the one that I that, for me, led to our talking about this and setting this up as an episode. What about the quintessential group combat or potential combat situation of a bar, somebody hits you over the back of the head, you know, bottle, whatever, and you turn around and you don't know who it was.
Andrew Adams:
Exactly, yep.
Jeremy Lesniak:
When we train, we tend to train in very controlled environments. And very few schools, in fact, very few of the schools I've ever trained at, have done anything to address this idea that, let's face it, statistically, you're probably not going to be at your best when these things happen.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah, I mean, people. Also most schools, when they train this, these types of scenarios, the person that is they're going into getting into a competition with is directly in front of them, and I get to see them coming.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Right.
Andrew Adams:
Most people if they're smart, if you want to be a bad guy, don't come at people from the front, like they're going to come from behind you. So you won't necessarily know if especially if it's in a crowded bar, who it was that whatever it was did.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Right? When I think about the drills that I've done, where there's been a little bit of confusion, it's been around this idea. You don't know who's an attacker and who isn't. But there's no consequence if you get it wrong.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Right. If somebody let's take that scenario. Back on the back of the head, you know, I'm in some social setting. And I turn around and there's four people there. Do I just walk away? Probably not, that's leaving a threat on the table.
Andrew Adams:
Yup.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And if someone's just going to haul off and punch me, they're probably going to do it again. You know, we're not talking about being in school and somebody, you know, shoves you in the hallway or up against the locker where, you know, yeah, maybe your egos bruised, but you're probably not going to get seriously injured by letting that go. But in this scenario, you could. So do I just pick the one that seems most likely and haul off and punch them? Because what if?
Andrew Adams:
You're wrong?
Jeremy Lesniak:
What if I'm wrong? And now I've added, now 5:45? Or more?
Andrew Adams:
Yeah. Yup.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Have you addressed this in any of your training?
Andrew Adams:
We in the training that I've done, we have not in our school, it's not something that's talked about often, although we can certainly correct that. The one place that I've seen it done is, when I was in Scotland, I visited Iain Abernethy's Dojo, you know, he's only a couple hours from Glasgow down, just cross the border in England. And during the class he had there were I don't know, maybe 25 or 30. Now, maybe not even that 15 to 20 people in the class. And he had four people lined up with their eyes closed, spaced apart, and the rest of the people, so there were, you know, 15 or so people kind of spread apart around the people that had their eyes closed, and everyone had sparring gear on. And the person with their eyes closed, had to keep their eyes closed until they were touched.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah.
Andrew Adams:
And it could have been a push from behind, could've been a push in the front, could have been a kick or punched one anywhere. And once they got touched, then they could open their eyes, and they would have to defend themselves.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Sure.
Andrew Adams:
And, you know, as an outsider, when I was watching this happen, you know, it was really interesting to see how people's reactions were when they were in their eyes. And then he had me do be one of the four with the eyes closed. And, you know, I felt the push from behind and opened my eyes. And I had six people on me.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah.
Andrew Adams:
You know, all that immediately. As soon as I opened, my eyes started coming at me. And I had to very quickly survey the situation like, what what's going on? Who is around me who is going to be attacking? And it's a different scenario that most people are not used to it was, I was surprised at how uncomfortable I felt. And these people were, I mean, I just met them that day, but I knew they weren't there to really hurt me. But if they really had been there to hurt me, it was every difficult situation.
Jeremy Lesniak:
7:44 Yeah. Now add the compounding factor. What if, in that drill, and maybe for those of you watching or listening, this is another layer to throw on top of that? What if when you open your eyes, you have to determine whether or not the touch was a threat or not.
Andrew Adams:
Yep.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Because I think that that that really gets to the heart of it. If I'm and I'm going to keep going back to the bar, because it's the most cliché scenario, and the one that I think most people can wrap their head around. If we take that scenario, and I'm at the bar, and someone, I feel an elbow upside the back of my head. Was that someone elbowing me in the head, or someone standing there and I'm a shorter guy, somebody is taller, and they and somebody gets bumped? And now they lean?
Andrew Adams:
Yep. Yep.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Keep it on camera. They lean and now I've got an elbow on the back of my head. Now if I turn and I swing, or put a bottle upside somebody's face, there's a fight.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah, right there 8:44.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Right, correct. So I think when I think about this, if we take this subject, I think we can boil down the training to a few things. Prevention. Determination. Extraction.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
The prevention is pretty obvious. Don't go to stupid places with stupid people and do stupid things.
Andrew Adams:
Stupid things. Yep.
Jeremy Lesniak:
If you're going to go anywhere, be aware, right? If you're sitting down at a meal.
Andrew Adams:
Be mindful.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Be mindful. If you're in a bar, you know, pay attention to who's there if there if there's something going on. I was out at dinner with a friend on Friday night and we were outside. And this was in Burlington and people were passing by and there were a couple scenarios that could have turned. I wasn't eating during them.
Andrew Adams:
You made sure to not be eating.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I was I was not eating.
Andrew Adams:
Yep.
Jeremy Lesniak:
My fork was down. I was very quietly paying attention because I knew what am i moment's notice and I may need to extract. Okay, so you've got the supervision, the paying attention of what's going on, and the willingness to get out of there.
Andrew Adams:
Yep.
Jeremy Lesniak:
What's the number one thing that's going to keep someone from extracting themselves from a situation?
Andrew Adams:
Having someone else with them? It would be my guess. I would say ego. Oh, yeah. Okay, that makes sense.
Jeremy Lesniak:
So we take the scenario.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Where again, was that elbow to the back of my head, intentional or not? I turn around and there isn't somebody about ready to connect with a second strike. I have a very, very quick response to determine, can I safely extract? And I think within the context of self-defense, we preach extraction, up until the point that the altercation begins up until violence happens.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And then we tend to preach, you get in there and do the damage you need to do. So you can extract for them get out. But what about this scenario where I lose the fight, because I get elbowed or punched, but I can still safely extract?
Andrew Adams:
Yeah, yeah, you still leave, you still get the opportunity.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I still get the opportunity to leave, maybe my pride is hurt. We forget that every time we engage, there's the opportunity to get really hurt. And when you have someone discuss, oh, well, you know, by training and this, and I've never, that's ego. And if ego is in the way, it becomes really difficult to separate. Now, let's take what you said this, if somebody else is there.
Andrew Adams:
Okay.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Now, a number of my friends had been in meals with me, and I've told them, we may need to live.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
There's a situation over there that I'm watching. And it could go south. And I will phrase that differently depending on who I'm with.
Andrew Adams:
Whose you're with. Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
But most of my friends at this point, understand, I am not an alarmist. And I would rather be prepared. The number of times I have had to leave a situation is very, very small. The number of situations I have observed is 12:13.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah. Because you're vigilantly watching, to see what's going on. I'm the same way my, when my wife and I go out to dinner, she doesn't ask me what seat I want, she knows what seat I want. I want to see the door.
Jeremy Lesniak:
There was a there's a responsibility in watching that. And there's something to be said for people who are willing to watch the door, versus people who just trust everyone around them to not, you know, stab them in the back. And both are good. I trust the people around me to not stab me in the back. But, uh, you ever, ever had someone that you consider to be a good friend, let you down?
Andrew Adams:
Oh, it happens.
Jeremy Lesniak:
So that means that the people around you could not be who they represent themselves to be? Oh, okay. So we know that paying attention is important that we have to do that. So the extraction part's pretty obvious. The avoidance part is pretty obvious. Let's let's talk about that determination part, because that's the heart of it. That's what makes this scenario different from every other scenario, we talked about the ability to quickly determine threat level, and respond appropriately, if necessary, especially when things are not ideal. The situation we tend to talk about is around adrenaline.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And, you know, you're really hyped up. What do you do? What do most schools seem to do? When considering that?
Andrew Adams:
Honestly, I think most schools don't consider it.
Jeremy Lesniak:
How about most schools that do because I would agree. I was about to phrase that the schools that do, how do they address it?
Andrew Adams:
I don't know that they do, because I don't know how those schools address it.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Okay.
Andrew Adams:
Because the schools that I've trained in.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Okay.
Andrew Adams:
Don’t.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Most of the schools that I'm familiar with, if they're going to address training for situations where adrenalin is raised, its experience. It's instituting drills, where when adrenaline rises, you have come to expect it. The spike the adrenaline spike is not quite as great and your ability to think through it and with it is greater.
Andrew Adams:
Yep. Okay.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I think it's the same kind of thing. I could imagine. I if I had a school as I'm talking through this, I would absolutely pull together high ranks and we would do this drunk training. Not everybody drunk.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah, yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And not everybody like hammered.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah, yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
But I could imagine like, you and I, we've got enough training, you know, and I don't know if you're a big drinker, but I suspect that you know, where your lines are?
Andrew Adams:
Where my limits are.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Right. Yep. So, you know, I know if I had like, one, like, pint of I really hoppy, you know, like 8% beer?
Andrew Adams:
Yeah, yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
That's all I would need to take that first step I would I would be, you know, my reaction time would be, I wouldn't be driving.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
That's a good way to express it. And so if you would I maybe a handful of others, supervised by an instructor who's completely sober.
Andrew Adams:
Sure, sure.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I think that's an important part to say, to do a little bit of training and to show how quickly things can go right now, I don't think you're doing the same kind of drills. I don't think that you're doing reaction drills where somebody is going to get popped.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I think you're doing these determination drills. Kind of like what you talked about at Abernethy School. This idea, Friend or Foe? Is this a threat or not? If you ever played like those arcade shooting games in the 80s?
Andrew Adams:
Oh, yeah, yep.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And quite off and you had to make a quick determination. Is this an enemy? Or is this something you're supposed to save?
Andrew Adams:
Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And you get it wrong in.
Andrew Adams:
16:17
Jeremy Lesniak:
You lose points. But in life, you get it wrong. And.
Andrew Adams:
You just created another 16:16.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Created a situation that didn't need to exist.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
So I don't know that we spend a bunch of time trying to come up with drills around this, because we haven't done them.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
But I think what we want to leave people with is this idea that it's a question that needs to be asked, and I am, I'm pretty sure that we've got some listeners and viewers out there who have drilled in this way.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And I would love.
Andrew Adams:
And I would, I would be surprised if we did.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I would love to have you folks write in? Let me know Jeremy@whistlekick.com. And maybe we'll do a follow up. Maybe we'll bring some of you on the show. We can do some things around that. But let's take it back to those three points prevention. As with any self-defense situation.
Andrew Adams:
Don't get in those situations.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And there's an added layer. Hey, you know, I know I'm going to have a couple drinks tonight. I know I'm going out with this person who seems a lot more likely to get into problems than other people. And now they want to go to this bar where I know it's a little bit more likely to go down. I'm going home.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah, yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And that can be really difficult to do under the reality of alcohol.
Andrew Adams:
Alcohol.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Does not help us make good decisions. We know this. I mean, it is the most cliché thing imaginable.
Andrew Adams:
I mean, no matter how much of a better karaoke singer, it makes you, it doesn't necessarily make you a better fighter.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And it's only better for you.
Andrew Adams:
Correct.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I don't know that anyone has ever said man is that person drinks more, they sing better. I've said it about myself. I've never said about so much. The extraction piece, the willingness to suspend ego, and get out of there. Because I've said it before, I will continue to say the only way you win a fight is to avoid it. And the point at which someone throws a punch at you, even if they connect that is not when the fight starts.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
The fight starts when you choose to respond with violence. If you can get out safely, you get out safely. When you fight when you can. And so you've got the peace in the middle as you try to figure out what makes sense.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Anything you should add?
Andrew Adams:
No, I mean, the only thing I would add is when I was in England at Sensei Abernethy's dojo, my wife told me afterwards that I close my eyes. And there were like two people around me and the other, you know, 10 or so students were on the other people. And Iain Abernethy went and put six people on.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Okay, wanted to mess with it.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah, absolutely.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And that's great.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah, absolutely.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Because you open your eyes and you panicked, correct?
Andrew Adams:
Correct.
Jeremy Lesniak:
You had that moment. And I think anything that induces that panicky response, I think is critical. You know, we didn't do and I think we should before we wind down here, we've talked about alcohol is an element of confusion. We've talked about not being able to determine threat. And we offhandedly at the top of the show mentioned some of these other things so let's go through them so people understand what we're talking about.
Andrew Adams:
Okay.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Tired. I do not want to get into a situation right now. My ability to process information due to sleep deprivation is significant.
Andrew Adams:
Yep. If I went to slap you right now you would probably not see it coming.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I definitely wouldn't see it coming. Andrews referencing a joke. I made on first cut this morning that he may need to slap me because I'm tired. And he was really looking forward to slap, let's just say there's there were some messages.
Andrew Adams:
Maybe in the objects.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Maybe, maybe we'll put that on Patreon. If you want to see Andrew slap me you got to be in whatever tier on Patreon. Oh.
Andrew Adams:
No other incentive to join Patreon.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah, no, that's not going to happen. So we've got tired.
Andrew Adams:
Yep.
Jeremy Lesniak:
We've got intoxicated, we've got just general lack of understanding of who is what and where and what's going on.
Andrew Adams:
Being actually dazed. Like someone actually hitting you and being physically like, Oh my god, 20:25 what is that?
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah.
Andrew Adams:
What happened?
Jeremy Lesniak:
That that is that is very significant. And something that I think is really hard to train for.
Andrew Adams:
You're right?
Jeremy Lesniak:
Unless you're training at an intense level with people that you trust. I've had my bell rung a couple times, and I'm all but useless.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I has not happened enough that I'm inoculated to that.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
But I know people who are I know, people who have been in the ring plenty of times or, or spar, you know, pretty close to full contact. And, you know, they shake it off 20:55, you know?
Andrew Adams:
Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And that's what I'm not going to train. What else do we have? How about awareness being elsewhere? I could imagine. You mentioned being in a situation with other people. You know, what if one of those other people is your child, a young child?
Andrew Adams:
Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And you know, there's something going on. And you don't know if your kids safe? I don't have kids. But I've heard parents speak pretty definitively that you get tunnel vision.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah, absolutely 21:27 totally see that.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Anything that we're missing?
Andrew Adams:
I don't think so.
Jeremy Lesniak:
On that list, okay. There might be one or two things, but I think that's enough for you to get the idea. So take this concept, run with it, and help us build on it.
Andrew Adams:
Okay.
Jeremy Lesniak:
If you like what we do, remember, you got a lot of ways you can support we've got the Patreon, we've got merge, we've got equipment, we've got books, where you can leave reviews, you can tell people about the show. You could once we had someone put the logo on the back of their car. I mean, the things that people have done in support a Whistlekick are pretty cool. And I'm game for any anything that you think would help us. I'm open to it. Thank you. If you have a topic, suggestion, feedback, guest suggestion. Email me Jeremy@whistlekick.com if you've got a question for the Q&A.
Andrew Adams:
Yep.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Episodes that we do every few weeks, email this guy, Andrew@whistlekickmartialartsradio.com or Social Medias at Whistlekick, we're all over the place there. We do newsletters you can sign up for with some pretty cool content, actually, we've worked really hard to make sure that the open rate goes up, meaning that we're doing something right and people are liking it. So we've reinvested in that. And I think that's it for now. So until next time.
Jeremy & Andrew:
Train hard. Smile. And have a great day.