Episode 638 - Joe Crawford

Joe Crawford is a Martial Arts practitioner and the author of the book Jove Brand is Near Death.

The idea of throwing a snap kick which has gained enormous popularity in the UFC particularly with Conor McGregor. This is the day one kick of Karate. The awakening of the masses going: “This kick really works!”

Joe Crawford - Episode 638

J.A. Crawford wanted to grow up to be a superhero. He studied Criminal Justice at Wayne State University, specializing in criminal procedure and interrogation.

Despite what his family thinks, Joe is not a spy. When he isn’t writing, he travels the country investigating disaster sites. Before that, he taught Criminal Justice, Montessori Kindergarten, and several martial arts. Joe is an alum of the Pitchwars program.

Joe has too many interests and finds every topic under the sun absolutely fascinating. He especially loves the stories behind the stories. Joe splits his time between Michigan and California. He is married to his first and biggest fan, who is not allowed to bring home any more pets.

Show Notes

Check out Joe Crawford’s website at www.jacrawford.net

Show Transcript

You can read the transcript below.

Jeremy Lesniak:

How's it going, everybody? Welcome. You're listening to whistlekick Martial Arts Radio episode 638. If you don't know me, I'm Jeremy Lesniak. I'm your host for the show founder whistlekick.  Everything we do is in support of the traditional martial arts and traditional martial artists. Probably people like you if you're listening there's a good shot that you love something about the traditional arts and that's why we're here to support you in all the things that make training and personal growth and all that stuff rewarding. But if you want to see what I mean, if you want to go deeper understand all the stuff that we've got going on because the long list goes to whistlekick.com. You’re going to see a full list of our products and our projects. If one of those products, strikes a nerve something that you want to pick up either to support us or just for yourself use the code PODCAST15. It's going to save you 15 percent on all of it and you know what I never say this but almost everything is free shipping apparel is free global shipping everything else is free US shipping. Just the way it goes check it out. The show gets its own website which is whistlekickmartialartsradio.com. 2 new episodes each and every week with the goal of connecting, educating and entertaining you and maybe your friends, you train with maybe your family. Anybody out there we're here for you.

 If you want to help the show well you could buy something, you could tell people about it, you could sign up for the newsletter you can leave us a review, you could buy a book, you could buy a uniform or a shirt or you could support our page on patreon.com/whistlekick. If you, could you throw a couple Bucks our way, we're going throw you some bonus content. You throw a couple more Bucks we're going to throw you more bonus content and scales up from there. People rarely stop their patron contributions which tells me we are doing something right in the vein of delivering value. It's all about value we try to give you as much value as we can out of everything that we produce. Today's guest is the passion martial artist. Big shock, great. Just about everybody we bring on is. It's also an author and he's an incredibly insightful person who spent a lot of time thinking about and talking about martial arts. Which you know anything about me and where I tend to go on the show you know that led to a wonderful conversation and one that you're going to enjoy. Here we go. Joe, how are you?

Joe Crawford:

Well, hello and good morning. I’m wonderful.

Jeremy Lesniak:

That is synced and awesome. People usually don't answer so positively. You sound very level. Very almost stoic.

Joe Crawford:

You know, my wife. I tell her it's her job in our marriage to be the excited one.

Jeremy Lesniak:

Does she take that to heart?

Joe Crawford:

Yeah, she does her boss, she expects me to be excited about things happening to me. And I always have some reservations, I always take everything with a grain of salt, you know, and however, things work out, they work out.

Jeremy Lesniak:

You always been like that?

Joe Crawford:

So, getting older has really helped. I was like many of us on a martial arts journey. Maybe in our younger years, we were fueled by different things. And I have a pleasant we found that I become a much more measured and emotionally mature person. as I've gotten older. As opposed to the grown in that I was in my early 20s.

Jeremy Lesniak:

I can hear the suppress laughter in your voice, you're definitely thinking about some specific things. Oh, definitely. We can talk about those things if you'd like we can. Hey, if you've got something you want to share? I am game to listen.

Joe Crawford:

Well, I don't know if you want to discuss the timeline of my martial arts career. But like, I think I take a lot of comfort. A lot of people are disturbed that their stories are not unique. We like to think that we are special in the universe. But I'm actually comforted to know that many people have gone through what I have gone through or am going through because it's reassuring to me. They did it and so can I. So, when I was in my early 20s, I've been training at that point for more than 15 years. At the time, I was training in a very rough and tumble form of Wing Chun, and my instructor, a Shifu Sean Paul, he said, “Now is the time for you to go out into the world to get away from the school where everyone is sort of sparring by the same rules and see if this applies when you touch hands with people of various disciplines”. And I did. So, there was a time in my 20s where I still have it. A big black duffel bag packed with two sets of sparring gear, and everything else a budding martial artist could want and I would get in there with just about anybody and learn a lot. And I'd get very excited. Like if I was going to spar a few gentlemen that were skilled cap Guerra. I was so excited about what I was going to experience. The unknown was upon me. And I thought it was a refreshing approach for a martial arts instructor because he was unconcerned that he hadn't been showing me truth. He wasn't worried that if I got out there out of a controlled environment, that what I had been training would lose its practical application. And it was a it was a good time for me. I don't know this age, if I would do that anymore.

Jeremy Lesniak:

Did you have the same context for it then? Or is it only in hindsight that you really appreciate that learning experience?

Joe Crawford:

At the time, this was okay, so this was the late 1990s. Clean living and I have never stopped training fairly intensely to this day. I still train six days a week. Here in the, in my basement, I have a 12 by 16, like college grade wrestling mat, with my heavy bag and my zhuang. And I still have people over to train in various disciplines. But now that I'm older, I bet people a little more carefully. I think we've all had the experience, where you don't really know somebody, and you're not really sure what you're getting, and the experience of a three-minute warrior, someone who wants to come in and give it his all for a round, and then say “Thank you, that was great”. And then leave, you're like, you know, I was pacing myself here, friend, and you made me fight for my legs, and now you're leaving. But I liked when I was training Wing Chun.

At that time, for me, the philosophical approaches behind Wing Chun agreed with my young mindset. You know, I think as a lot of us get older, we start to value the intangibles in martial arts more. And I think when we're younger people, when you hear this system is simple, it's efficient, it's practical, it's scientific. It's all the tangible things in the universe. Especially when you are not advanced yet. And you start to realize the value of intangibles, and how advanced technique is instinctual and also artistic in a way that when you're training, you're getting your palette, right, you're putting your palette together. And then after years of training and sparring, then you're able to really paint in a way that you never thought you would be able to paint that you didn't even know you were going to be a painter. You've used that analogy before it sounds like. Well, actually, that's a new one. Oh, I am an author. So, you're going to get this out of me. Some of them are going to sound really good. And some of them are going to need a second or third draft to talk...

Jeremy Lesniak:

Which was all perfect. The first time you said anything, you know, I start to be concerned. Feel like you were given the same interview over and over?

Joe Crawford:

No, no. You know, and one of the, as someone who writes, I also read a lot, you know, and I'm so interested in martial arts writing, because as someone who has a large collection of martial arts books, you get varying quality when you try different martial arts books. I remember in the late 90s, being very excited by the publisher Tuttle, because they were just putting out some incredible martial arts books, some of Bruce Lee's books in a different format than we'd seen before. And then the beautiful books like the complete Wing Chun, Taekwondo, they were just putting out incredible products. And I thought this is what I've been looking for so long.

Jeremy Lesniak:

Do you remember your first martial arts book?

Joe Crawford:

Wow.

Jeremy Lesniak:

Or maybe that's not like the question. I mean, how about the first one that was really impactful?

Joe Crawford:

Yeah, so I started training pretty young. I was about eight years old. And I'm a giant, comic book fan. And I would love comic book with a great martial art scene in it. And when you get older, you start to look at those artists and you start to see who were martial artists, you recognize techniques. You see, you see their passion for martial arts in their work. So, I loved different comics. But I think like many of us, I wish I had a unique answer. But it was probably Bruce Lee's Tao of Jeet Kune Do. The big old Revised Edition.

Jeremy Lesniak:

Do you remember how old you were?

Joe Crawford:

Yeah, I was 16.

Jeremy Lesniak:

This is before in financial age. I know a lot of people who have read reread the [00:10:28-00:10:29].

Joe Crawford:

Yes.

Jeremy Lesniak:

That book at that age?

Joe Crawford:

Yes. While you get your driver's license, this is before you can get books delivered to your palm. Sure. And no one can stop you from buying a book anymore if you can find it. If that makes any sense.

Jeremy Lesniak:

It does. It does. I bet to this audience. It makes a lot of sense.

Joe Crawford:

Yes, yes. What a great book. And what a wonderful way to sneak some philosophy in which has become my favorite part of Bruce Lee's writing sense is his philosophy.

Jeremy Lesniak:

How much do you think you understood it then?

Joe Crawford:

Oh, boy, now the ball. I wanted to understand it. I wanted to understand the mechanical things Lee was talking about. There are some drawings of what he considers to be the ideal on guard stance in that book. And I tried to emulate that stance and it felt like the most awkward stance possible your kind of twisted sideways at one hand down protecting your groin, the other hands up in a nice hand your shoulders turned in. It's like what is this? How do you move at all? I've seen that picture. And this is before you as I got older. I could be more active and sparring you know you get out of point sparring; you start pre sparring more. And then you start to realize this isn't a static position. This is a transitory. This is the position you're just hitting in transition sometimes. And then when you learn a few other things, and Wing Chun, for me, it was the Bong Sau technique. You know, Bong Sau, it's a great technique on film. So, you see a lot of movies. But it shares a lot of principles with boxing shoulder roll. And then you start to realize that's what the stance is trying to imply. It's trying to apply the use of the shoulder roll. Things begin to make a little more sense.

Jeremy Lesniak:

Yeah. What was it like making that transition from point sparring to more free sparring, and getting to implement some of those things that I suspect you understood on an intellectual level? Or at least thought you did? And but then you got the opportunity to put them into practice. And as we all know, when you put things into practice, you go “Oh, yes”. And it really understands what was that experience like.

Joe Crawford:

Well, so I came up. I started doing Judo at the Boys and Girls Club of America as a little guy, as a grade schooler. So, my experience started more with free with more free live sparring at the at the Judo level, but then I transitioned into more point fighting disciplines, Taekwondo, and then Karate. So, confusions a little more, you know, with point fighting, you're only concerned about getting the point in not so much about after. Right and dead stop. Got to be careful. And that transition is jarring. Especially and I'm sure other people have experience of being a younger person thrown in there with an older person. I grew up in the Detroit Metro area. And the brand of martial artists in that area is a rough and tumble brand. These were factory workers. strong, strong men and women. Blue Collar men and women who didn't take no guff and they didn't like the idea of a cocky teenager getting anything in on them the transition. So, I firmly believe life imitates art. I found martial arts by watching films, watching television shows. And I just want to do that.

So, I remember this isn't the 90s so you couldn't really get Jackie Chan films, you kind of got what you got. So, in 1982, Brandon Lee's Rapid Fire came out. And I loved this movie. And there is a sequence at the end of Rapid Fire. Were Brandley employees, so Wing Chun tramping. It's a beautiful scene. It's well shot, it's cleanly shot, great music. And I thought, whatever he's doing here, I have to learn this. So, I started looking into it and found out it was it was Wing Chun. And I met someone who was very pivotal. We all have that instructor was very pivotal in our martial arts education. And mine was Sean Paul, who was a Wing Chun instructor. And he really stressed not stopping, just keep going. Don't always protect yourself. And always be doing something. I remember, I sparring. I would do some trapping hands and get in a good position and maybe land a few clean techniques. And he would say, “What are you doing? Keep going, you need to keep going”. Until this person gets themselves out of trouble. And they need to get themselves out of trouble and need to learn how to you're helping them.

Jeremy Lesniak:

Okay, I'm with you.

Joe Crawford:

Yeah, he was always trying to get us. He was an instructor in pursuit of the truth.

Jeremy Lesniak:

What do you mean by that?

Joe Crawford:

He was, in a way following the lead timeline, where he was trying to, he was an older at the time. I know. Now he's in his 40s. And he was finding what worked for him. But he was also not only trying to find, where technique, met practicality, but also find the practicality in techniques where we might have lost fat. So, he would be analyzing different hand trapping techniques. You know, he had gone to China. Before I met him in the mid 90s. And trained over there, we had a strong lineage. And I guess I have a strong lineage to when I think about it that way. And he would you know, for those of us that, for Wing Chun, and in particular, there are many famous books, you know, It man's 108 movements book for the wooden man. And you look at it and you're trying to see what he was getting at, but in a static image. It's difficult. And he was finding what people were using in live practice. And then he was trying to not just find shortcuts, but find where those old techniques that have been left by the wayside were supposed to fit. And to this day, when I watch like a mixed martial arts match, and I see a hand trapping technique, I look and I go, “Well, there it is”, you know, like Bruce Lee said, you know, until they invent a being that does has more than two arms and two legs. It's all going to boil down to the same stuff. Those are those techniques. They're in there. If I get expands slightly, because my thoughts are running on this, please. It was your episode.

Jeremy Lesniak:

You can take it wherever you want.

Joe Crawford:

Oh, thanks. It was so exciting to watch the evolution of the UFC and to watch the reintroduction of traditional martial arts techniques. The UFC ran this timeline where people who were very good at Brazilian Jiu Jitsu did well. And then people who were very good wrestlers did well. And then those two things sort of became requirements. And when you're a good wrestler, and you are good submission artist, you're good at not getting in a bad position, and not being submitted. And then that opened up the striking game. And we started to see these martial artists come in, like, well, first, you know, George St.-Pierre used a coalition guy. And then, Lyoto Machida with almost a modified point fighting approach to fighting. What an incredible fighter to watch. incredibly exciting time to watch. I would every one of his bouts, I would look forward to to see what he was doing. And then Stephen Thompson, I kind of feel was the next generation of fighter to bring those techniques in.

And then you start to see things like Edson Barboza wheel kicks. And you're just like, this is so much fun now to, you know, for years and years, I would deal with naysayers that would say, “Oh, you know, if you just don't box, if you just don't do, what you're just wasting your time?” And I'd say, well, let's find out. You know, and I get some gloves on, get padded up with see where it went. Because I knew that there was room for these techniques there that traditional martial arts endured for so long, for a reason. And to see that evolution, the UFC is so exciting. I've always told people, it's so interesting to have been a martial artist and trained and you didn't know what you were getting when you faced off with somebody from different discipline or no discipline. And then all of a sudden, it's like the whole world was fighting by my rules, and couldn't believe it. It's like, “Hey, this is great”. These unified rules of sparring have been established during my lifetime.

Jeremy Lesniak:

And do you remember at what point you saw that? You put it together? Because I haven't heard it described in that way? And I would imagine that because you're a very thoughtful person. And I would imagine that you felt defensive of the things that you grew up training, that realization gave you some hope that you're talking about this, this evolution and the space for striking to come in and start finding its own.

Joe Crawford:

Yes. Actually, I do remember. So, I would say, if I were to pin down a year, I would say this was probably around. I was thinking about it, I would say I started to see it around 2002. Oh, a while. And then in 2000 by 2006. It seemed like if you free sparred with someone you didn't know, well, they would try a wrestling takedown or they try Jiu jitsu technique or they would throw round kicks. They would throw leg kicks. And you started to know what to expect better out of people. Because they were their lives were imitating not fictional art. But martial art. They were watching these UFC and they were emulating those techniques. And then all of a sudden, you had a subset of people who were fighting almost all the same way. Sometimes very predictably. With a limited set of techniques, I mean, in this era, the idea of throwing snap kick, which has gained enormous popularity in the UFC in the last four or five years, particularly with Conor McGregor, employing a lot of snap kicks, not thrust kicks, not teep kicks that you see in Muay Thai, but almost traditional karate, snap kicks. The day one kick of karate, okay, and here we are, and all the awakening of the mass is going, this kick really works.

Yes, it really works so much that you learned it basically, on your first day. And not just because those of us who've been instructors, know that it's a great kick to teach to begin to teach balance. It's a great kick that allows someone to work within their comfortable range of motion without endangering themselves, you know, tipping over danger and others. And it's adjustable target strike points. You see, so I did get to employ a lot of techniques at that time, snap kicks, sidekicks, a little trickier stuff that people just weren't not familiar with. And they were not familiar with where they were presenting those openings, you know, because the round kick is a beautiful tool, but it has its weaknesses, especially the rear round kick. There's a lot of, this got to get to its target, it's got a long way to go. So pretty easy to see coming. Much of the time. It is especially if I find it so interesting that wrestlers are very hip obsessed. Wrestling comes from the hips. You read techniques from the hips. You hear wrestlers admire other wrestlers discussing their hips. But then there, they don't know what they're looking at when it comes to striking techniques and the hips. And the round kicks, you can't do much without the hips in that one.

Jeremy Lesniak:

Let's go back a second you talked about. And I remember this time as well. There was this brief time, at least in the history of mixed martial arts, we don't talk a lot about MMA on the show. But we're as you described, everyone seemed to have the same skill set, it was almost like there was this template. And I remember people talking about it this way. If you want to be good at MMA, you need to be a BJJ purple belt. And you need a couple years of Muay Thai. And ideally, you get, you know, a little bit of wrestling, and a little bit of boxing, and you're good. And I would see people talk about it this way. No, of course, none of those people trained. More than, you know, a minute. And none of them are ever stepping in. Right. Yeah. Because anybody who's actually, you know, thrown 60% in power with other people knows that. It's, you can't structure it quite that way.

Joe Crawford:

Yes.

Jeremy Lesniak:

But I thought I found it fascinating that once we hit that point. And as you described, things became very predictable. People started looking for what's my X Factor going to be? And I remember commentary at UFC matches, not quite describing it this way. But essentially, this is what they were saying, you know, but this person also has, you know, six years of shoring rule. So, what can we expect for them, you know, from them to come out of that body of knowledge. And it almost feels like we're going to go not quite full circle, because the beginning days of the UFC, you know, there were not everybody had BJJ experience. Not everybody recognizes the need for some a wrestling range, but it feels like we're circling back around where it's going to be far more diverse.

Joe Crawford:

Yes. All that. I think, also, people were choosing disciplines that you could learn just a few years and they were trying to stick with you with a lot of real basic stuff, because you had people coming in, that were in for three years, or in that range. And one of the things that's greatly undervalued when you are coming up when, when you're a novice, his footwork and movement, that I'm a movement first guy, I'm always moving, I'm always handling, it's always the feet first. A lot of times when I'm free sparring with people, they will comment that they just simply can't catch me or get in a position. They feel like I'm already gone. But when you only been training a few years, your footwork work is not enticing for if I could hurt isn't sexy, not at all. So not even a little learn it. But it's how you keep yourself out of a lot of trouble. And it's how you avoid these sorts of basic traps of people just rushing you. And you know how we like to think of a strong offense as toughness. But a lot of people who are very strongly offensive, they're always on the offense, it's really from a place of fear. It's much easier to just attack a lot and keep up pressure, because you're defending by never having to defend that makes any sense.

So, you run to that to where people's defenses are very good. And they're just kind of throwing it into the wind, they don't even want to think about it. They just want to come forward and attack a lot and sort of whatever happens. Yeah, I'm sure. A lot of other martial arts will relate with that transition of entering, how do I get in? How do I enter what are my entering techniques, and then becoming a little more comfortable with counter fighting. To this day, I love when I do controlled rounds, I will. One of the things that I tried to impress as an instructor is to have goals with your rounds. So, what's on this, on this round, I'm going to work on outside techniques. I'm going to use a lot of footwork. I'm not going to incite. Okay, on this round, I'm going to counter fight more. I'm going to let you lead. And I'm going to find that I want to be able to shift gears. In anything in any pursuit, the ability to shift gears to adapt to have different styles to fit into different situations is so key. And I've noticed that when I deal with in train with people that have been trained for many years, that chess game of shifting gears around of people that have a large toolbox, and they're not tied to one approach. Those are exciting people to train with. It's a lot of fun to train with.

Jeremy Lesniak:

Absolutely. I like the way you're talking about rounds and putting a focus on those rounds. Because one of the things that we're, as martial artists confronted with today, one of the major conversations we have really is around pressure testing, or reality or whatever words you want to use. And there seems to be this extreme camp that things if it's not as close to 100% free form. Anything goes that it's a waste of time. And what you're talking about, to me just make so much sense because if you've taught anyone and I think the majority of these arguments come from people who don't teach, because anyone who's taught knows that their students the further down the quote, “reality or intensity scale you go, the more they revert back to their patterns”. Yeah, which are not always good patterns. How do you break them out of patterns? Do you stand on the side and yell them while they're getting pummeled, that doesn't work, they need the opportunity to get rounds in and practice and unpack whatever that bad habit is to transition into something else.

Joe Crawford:

I was by no means a talented martial artist. As someone who's trained for years and years of many disciplines, I have felt the frustration, I'm not frustrated anymore by someone who comes in the school, or the queen, or the gym, wherever you're training, and they are just gifted to just so quickly pick it up. I was not a talented martial artist. For years and years, I would turn away, I would even close my eyes, it took so long for me to break those habits. And it took the patience of my instructors to find in practice ways for me to, to break those habits. And targeted rounds are just so good for that, you know, there were these all these budding mixed martial arts gems in the early 2000s. Because there was business there, there was money to be made. And I watched as someone who travels the country, and would just like to dip into a school and just see what they're doing. By watch that they would just throw these guys in there, they would just, you know, people with very little training, with no goals, with no assignments. They would just say, “Alright, let's get in around”. And I don't, you would have to be so gifted to learn that way. And most of us are not that gifted. So even if you can do it, it's not the most efficient way. Yes, no, it sure is. That's very true.

Jeremy Lesniak:

Hello, five-year-old today, we're going to work on writing.

Joe Crawford:

Yes.

Jeremy Lesniak:

Create a book. Yes. If you get it wrong, I'll hit you. That's essentially what we're doing when we teach people martial arts in that way.

Joe Crawford:

Yes. I remember. The first time I did sort of pursuit round, and there was a Wing Chun because the Wing Chun has a very desired effective distance, it's pretty close. And they spend a lot of time trying to achieve that distance, how do we get into trapping rate, they don't like to be too far out. They don't like to be too far. And so, what you do on Wing Chun is you do rounds where someone is trying to escape you, and you're sticking to them footwork wise. And you're not just sticking to them, but you're gaining ankles while they try to get away. And you don't have to do anything with your hands during this period, except for lightly touching to preserve distance. And to, for Wing Chun, you should be able to do it with your eyes closed. It's all off feel. So, at a high level, so we would just pursue each other. And if you were being chased the next round, you would be the chaser. And then the person trying to get away would be trying to learn things too, about how to get away. And it was so such a new experience to do around where it was just awful at work. There was no emphasis constraining whatsoever. It's so valuable, in my opinion.

Jeremy Lesniak:

I agree. Let's switch it up a little bit. Sure. We've talked a lot about these points? I would say big thoughts. No, these are things that I think a lot of martial artists will consider. But I'm going to get far fewer actually spend contemplative time as it's clear you have considering them. That approach to anything whether it's martial arts or something else, in my experience usually comes from someone in their past and their history. Helping them understand the value of thoughtful contemplation as a component of growth in whatever the pursuit is. Who is that for you?

Joe Crawford:

That's a great question. Okay, so people talk about this with me, I do get pretty real in terms of discussing my past and discussing where I came from. And part of my martial arts journey was the pursuit of a father figure. I would wager there are other martial arts, martial artists, if they were being honest, would say the same thing. They were looking for a role model. They were looking for an example of who they want it to be. Yeah, my first novel, I thought I was writing about one thing, and I was writing about that thing is still there. But when I got done, I started looking at the characters and why they were, how they were. And I realized that I had written a book where every character had an absent or abusive father. Which might say something. Yeah, I think. So, like many heavy readers, first, it came through reading, I would read something fictional or not. And I would say, this is an example that I want to follow. As, as cheesy as it sounds, even comic books, right. This is how a moral hero behaves. And this is how I want to be as a person. As an aside, I'm just so excited that Captain America is such a popular character now. Because it gives me hope that all our heroes don't have to be anti-heroes. They can simply be good people with good intentions.

But I would say instructor wise, it was my Wing Chun instructor who I took the he was a living, breathing, close example of the things that I had been reading. Someone who was considerate someone who was measured, who had worked through their anger, and come out the other side, and grown. You know, I had a lot of anger as a younger person. I never, I've written about this, but as a martial artist, I was never out to ever hurt anybody. I actually hate hurting people in any context, but all in a physical context. I'm never out to injure anybody or hurt me if I feel so bad. When you hurt somebody, when you get them, you know, the distances suddenly shrink. And you didn't foresee that you get somebody a little more solid than you meant to it. It just feels terrible. And it was more about being able to endure hardship, being able to prove that I could take it rather than deliver it, if that makes any sense. So, but yeah, I would say it was my Wing Chun instructor, Sean Paul. That was that. That example before that, I had trained in some traditional martial arts, again, Judo, Taekwondo and Karate. But I had not made a personal connection with any of the instructors. These were big schools. These were younger Pete classes for younger people. And I had not found that intimate connection that I think that I was really seeking.

Jeremy Lesniak:

That awareness now probably sheds a lot of light on some things that you did, then earlier. Are there situations that you think about in your past things that you did say that you have a little more self-compassion.

Joe Crawford:

Yeah. perspective. Yeah, I don't look back. I don't have any horror stories where I did anything. I don't have like; I don't have any Cobra Kai stories. I mean, is that? Is it a grinding halt out? No, I'm just, I don't have any of those stories, I do have stories where I did run into people who I felt were being deceptive. All of us who train, especially traditionally have run into people that are not who they are pretending to be. They're claiming experience or lineage that they don't possess. And if I ran into a person like that, that was instructing, I would boil over a little bit. Because I didn't like the idea of this person, as an ego exercise. Leading someone down a false path. I didn't sense being from Michigan, that is a person. We, you know, as martial artists, we know, when someone can't trace their lineage. That's generally a sign that perhaps they're not being truthful about their history, about their martial arts experience. In being from Michigan. They always learn from a guy up north, like some somewhere up north in Michigan is the Upper Peninsula. It's the wilderness. When you run into those guys, and they're trained, they're teaching, I would get a little upset. Like I said, I used to carry on sparring gear in my car. You know, in my trunk, I had all my stuff. And if I was in the situation, in my early 20s, where someone would be bragging, or making claims, I would say, well, you are in luck. Let's find out. Let's see where we stand.

Jeremy Lesniak:

Why was that so important to you? A gear bag with two sets of gear. I think you said earlier it was two sets. Take some a bunch of space. Once you're rolling around and they know a suburban or something you that was intentional there was real value on keeping that and the opportunity to check that person.

Joe Crawford:

Yeah.

Jeremy Lesniak:

Why was that so critical? For you?

Joe Crawford:

That is a great question. I don't know. At the time, I felt that I put in all this hard work. And that I had, ironically gained a sense of humility, and realism about where I was. People always talk about that. They say, you know, you have a lot of humility, or you're a humble person. And I said, it's because I've trained for so long that when you train for a long time, you know exactly where you stand. You have touched gloves. You've been in there with professionals with truly amazingly talented people, people whose talent, drive, desire that I could never match. And you have no illusions by yourself, where you stand. And for some reason, when I would run into an illusionist, it would be a good description. But yeah, so we get me riled me up. Not so much anymore.

Jeremy Lesniak:

I think it's an important thing to unpack, because the motivation for that likely comes in my experience, because we spent a lot of time talking about ego on the show. Okay. I think really, the trust of most martial arts journeys, involves ego, whether it's the buildup of ego because it didn't exist, or the breakdown, or the restructure, right. It seems to be all ego. And I think that there are a lot of people who are in the midst of that ego journey and what it sounds like, was in your 20s there was a defensiveness of what you had done because if somebody else wasn't representing the thing that you love the thing, you had invested so much into that it may be reflected poorly on you. Almost like martial arts vigilante, not the use of martial arts as a vigilante shadow, vigilante defensive martial arts.

Joe Crawford:

Yes, I think that is extremely exciting. Insightful. I've never really thought of it that way. But you're right. Ego does play a huge part. And I think, too, at that time, I was probably a little prideful. You know, at that age, you're at a physical peak that you maybe never been at, especially if you're also weight training and conditioning. So, I'm also sure ego did play apartment, you know, I felt that I was running on all cylinders. And I was happy to demonstrate it. But yes, I think that's very insightful, actually. So, I've learned something today.

Jeremy Lesniak:

Well, good, good. There's a little bit of value exchange, you're being so generous with your time and being open with your stories. And, you know, it's the reason I can point to that story is because, you know, it's my story to a certain degree, that early 20s stage for someone who started training when they were quite young, which is also my Genesis, and, you know, by the time you hit 2020, to 25, you've got a lot of time in, you're physically likely at your peak, probably at the peak of your own opinion of your skill. And it's not always a healthy combination. And it takes a really strong instructor to guide that person. And I think that is part of why we see quite a few people transition not just in martial arts, but just in life. You know, there's a lot of transition that happens in the early to mid 20s. Because of that, you're right, there wasn't even a word. It's just that tone, there are, yeah, that I think we can a lot of us at least can empathize with.

Joe Crawford:

Yes, definitely, you know, also this idea of preparedness, you know, I've always been a person with a strong imagination. So, you know, it is embarrassing as it sounds, that I've always been ready for a ninja to pop out.

Jeremy Lesniak:

I'm not the only one. Oh, this is fantastic. Right? I'm sure there are a bunch people listening going. Oh, it's not just me. Thank God.

Joe Crawford:

If somebody sat up in my back seat right now, I know what I'm going to do. I'm ready. You've acted this out? Oh, sure. You know, that's actually in Taekwondo. Right. Well, Bruce Lee saying, you know, visualize different situations and what you would do in those situations, you know, and I have been caught by friends and family who've turned the corner at the wrong time. When I'm having a little mental exercise. Telling a little story in my head. It's embarrassing.

Jeremy Lesniak:

You're in good company. Here, my friend. Oh, good. Good. How is that because you mentioned this earlier. And I think this is probably a great time to talk about I know, we've connected a couple dots you mentioned that you've written? Yeah. How has that imagination coupled with your own journey? And you know, these personal aspects to some characters? How is that expressed in your writing?

Joe Crawford:

Sure. So, I always did want to write but I didn't have a lot of confidence in it. I don't come from a background of I didn't get a degree in writing or an MFA or any of these things you get, you know, my degrees are criminal justice. So, because I wanted to be a superhero, let's be honest, I was a fat man. I was doing martial arts and trading criminal justice and college. Come on. What were my goals here. So...

Jeremy Lesniak:

You know, here's a wonderful thought, I'm going to derail this. But if you can pull it back, because I think this will be fun. How interesting would it be if we could exist in some world where we could conduct the experiment? For how many of us is it? The mere lack of a few billion dollars that separates us right, Batman, I know. You gave me I mean, within 12 months, I would run out of all the other things that I really wanted to do. And I would be Batman. And it sounds like you would too, but I bet there's a bunch of people listening, saying.

Joe Crawford:

Yeah, probably be me as well. Yeah, I mean, I'm having grown up on a steady diet of comic books, and in training, and then decided to go to school for criminal justice. Definitely, definitely in my head. Before I understood that job is a service job. It's not what you imagined it is. Thankfully. Yes, I definitely was preparing for that. And if you did have that budget, and those are some of my favorite Batman stories is when you dig into his past, and you'd be traveling around the world and finding all these amazing teachers to instruct him wanting to write, you have to find your voice. And as much as we like to think of writing as art. Just like martial arts, it takes a lot of sweat, a lot of elbow grease, a lot of dedication. Just like wanting to be a skilled Martial Artist, we wish that we were just naturally gifted. And that without even trying, we were perfect. But that was not my writing journey. I had to write for books. And I had to write poorly. And I had to be honest with myself, and I had to attack my weaknesses, and I had to break down my illusion of where I stood in terms of my writing skills. It took a while. And it was inevitable that anything I wrote, the character in some way, shape or form was a martial artist. I like writing action scenes, I love writing fight scenes, maybe too much. But I love more. Getting into the head of how does a person who has trained for a long time think.

So, my debut book, the character in the book is a lifetime martial artist, who, through a fluke event, appears in a film of a famous movie franchise that has lost its lead actor. And they need someone to step into this famous movie role. And play the character because of the movie isn't complete in 30 days, they're going to lose the rights to the entire franchise. So, this is a take on the idea that we have to have a spider man movie every three years. And if we don't, Sony is going to lose the ability to make Spider Man movies. So, the director losing the original actor decides I'm just going to shoot a martial arts film, I'm just going to shoot a dirty action movie. So, he goes to a martial arts tournament. Look for a skilled Martial Artist who looks close to what the main character is supposed to look like, and cast them in a movie. And this is a young man who has no idea what he's doing. And it's a disaster. And this is 18 years before the book starts. And he is now when the book starts in his late 30s.

He has a lot more perspective. And he has been ridiculed on a daily basis by the internet for his horrible portrayal of this movie. And it has caused him to have a lot of perspective and a lot of empathy for other people, because he knows what it's like to be the target of ridicule. So, I wanted to write a book about a lifetime martial artist that showed some buddies perspective and showed how they went through tough experiences, but came out of better a person. I've actually been very pleased that as I've gotten older, I didn't become the crotchety old man that I thought I was going to be that I have a lot more empathy for people, and that I root for people, that the older I get, the less bitterness I possess. I'm very pleased and refreshed, that this is the path I'm going on. Because I think a lot of people, when they get older, they there's a fork in the road.

Jeremy Lesniak:

Do you think that there's a way? Let's longtime listeners know; this has become a favorite question of mine. But I always tweak it a little bit. Do you think there's a way that if time travel existed, that you could go back to some point and shave off some of the time that shedding that bitterness took? Could you advise yourself in such a way that you would listen to you? Or did you need to experience it?

Joe Crawford:

Yeah. Did you need to experience it? Did you need to experience it? I would say you might actually do your past self-more harm than good. What if I go back to my past self and say, “hey, guess what? This all works out?” All these things that you're concerned about? All this time you're putting in, it's worth it, you're not wasting it. Keep on doing, what you're doing. It's yielding results. Would past me, then get a little full of himself? And save? Well, look at me. All right. He should have been more specific about what behaviors. That's interesting. I think I do. My bad pondering is the idea of, of appearing in my younger body with my present knowledge. Right? The impossible situation that you wake up, and it's, you have the knowledge you've gained in the last 20 years. But you have those 20 years back? Probably a good thing. We don't get that.

Jeremy Lesniak:

Probably. Now, what about sort of the inverse of that question? What if you had the opportunity to go forward in time? 20 years talk to older you. Sit down have a cup of coffee?

Joe Crawford:

Yeah.

Jeremy Lesniak:

Would you?

Joe Crawford:

Yeah, I would hope I wouldn't have to buy him the coffee.

Jeremy Lesniak:

Because coffee in 20 years is going to be you know, $18,000.

Joe Crawford:

I haven't really been someone who is. I'm not a guy that pursues material wealth. I'm someone who likes to be comfortable. But that's not what's important to me. I think our most important resource in life is our time. Our time is our most valuable thing. It's limited and you have to preserve it. And I think it's because I came from this blue-collar place here much, Detroit, where as I was graduating high school, people could still walk right off, grab their diploma and the walk into a factory. And I watched factory life, the grind of factory life. And I did not take to it well, I said I need to find a path in life where my time is my own. So, that's been a deliberate choice. To value time over money to make the money that I need to pursue my goals, but that my goals aren't simply accumulations. So, I like I'm saying, I'm 20 years, I would hope I went into by my older self, coffee. Because if I saw my older self and he was like, hey, what, say we work on our 401k a little more than what we're doing right now.

Jeremy Lesniak:

Hey younger me, can I get some stock picks?

Joe Crawford:

Yeah. You're going to get around to this stuff, pal. I don't know about other martial artists; I love to have real discussions with other people that train. But my wife is always commenting about how hard I am on myself how critical I am of myself. I demand a lot out of myself. And I do not demand it out of anybody else. I'm very accepting of other people, efforts, and very understanding. But I think the bar that I placed on myself has always been very high. And my wife, she comments, I need to take it easier on myself. And I tell her, why don't you do that? Why don't you take it easy on me? Because I'm not able to?

Jeremy Lesniak:

Where can people find your book? Books? book?

Joe Crawford:

Oh, yeah. So, this is my debut novel, it just came out less than a month ago. Now.

Jeremy Lesniak:

Some good time?

Joe Crawford:

Yeah. Well, let's, you know, I have to be someone we're talking to. So, I'm starting to appear on more things, everyone is worth talking to you.

Jeremy Lesniak:

If you dig into our back catalogue, you will see it's truthful that, in my opinion, many of our strongest episodes are with what people would call everyday martial artists.

Joe Crawford:

Yes, I absolutely agree with you. So, it was a long journey to publication. And it's tough, being a traditionally published writer, getting a literary agent, finding a publisher willing to invest in you. And then and sticking through painful, there's a lot of rejection. If you go the traditional writing route, you're going to hear a lot, and you're going to deal with harsh criticism. Even if it comes from a place of love. Professionals will not be gentle with you. So, we've worked hard. I worked hard on this book. I'm really pleased with how much martial arts I was able to get into it without being overly technical. Because remember, the book is being read by the labor, as well as, hopefully experienced martial artists, who will identify with what's going on in the book, not just the action scenes, which I feel I do a decent job on. But the eternal experience of the martial artists in the book, and how they look at life and, and how they use their subset of skills to read people because this is a martial artist who's a detective.

So, he uses his knowledge of his observations because you know, as martial artists, we learn to evaluate people very quickly, in terms of where they're at how they move. The assuredness of their motions, will we can kind of quickly pin where somebody is having their own journey, and what that means for us if we're encountering them. But anyway, my book is available wherever books are sold. You know, you can go to your big places, your Amazons, Barnes and Noble. The publisher is CamCat, you can just simply go to the cam cat books site. I guess, I am, Joe Crawford is my name. But when I started dating my wife, she tried to Google fool me. She tried to get on Google and find all my dirt. And she, to her dismay, my name is too common. And there were too many Joe Crawfords and she bemoaned that she could not find my dark secrets. And I thought, I am going to need a pen name. Because if you google Joe Crawford author, you're never going to get it. So that's why I my pen name is J. A. Crawford, which is just my first two initials J. A. Crawford. And the book is Jove Brand is Near Death. And it is an action packed, humorous mystery. That is a run up on a certain famous super spy franchise that many of us know and love. Because a lot of fun to make up a fictional movie franchise that has been going on for 50 years and sort of comments on the evolution of the super spy on the evolution of character, who in the book I refer to as all the [01:00:42-01:00:43] you know, anything ending in IST and has that concept become dated? And how does that evolve with the modern day? I think everyone has an inner detective.

Everyone does have, we all have our observing side, and finding my detective character in this Ken Allen character, who because it's a first-person narrative, we share a lot in common. Someone who has been weathered by life and weathered it well, that life has an eroded him into a fine polish, rather than wear him down. And I think readers will like going on a journey with old Ken. He's a good guy. He's a wholesome guy. Actually, he doesn't have a lot of darkness in him. I think the trend right now in our fiction has been characters with a lot of darkness. Yeah. And I don't wait, you know, I enjoy. I'm a big fan of Lee child. I love the Jack Reacher books. I like that stuff. But I want to get back to good men doing good things and a guy who doesn't want to hurt anybody, but wants to find the truth. And so, the book is Joe, I have to remember this. I'm a budding author. So, you have to excuse me, I forgot to promote myself. The book, I do. The book is Jove Brand is Near Death. And I recently signed the contract and turned in the sequel book with which is about superheroes. It's a continuation of the same series, where the Ken Allen character is hired. As someone starts murdering the actors who play superheroes in superhero movies, someone starts murdering the actors behind the mass and Ken has to unravel. Who is this person killing heroes. Because I really wanted to write a book about role models about who we choose to be our heroes and what we look for in our heroes. But I also wanted to write a book about the people who created heroes, and how we treated those people who created the heroes that we know and we'd love. It's a topic near and dear to my heart.

Jeremy Lesniak:

How about social media websites? Anything else like that, that our listeners should know about?

Joe Crawford:

Oh, sure. I've been criticized with this, but my publicist many years ago...

Jeremy Lesniak:

You aren't being too hard on yourself.

Joe Crawford:

Yes. Right.

Jeremy Lesniak:

That's okay. Please continue.

Joe Crawford:

Yeah, but you have to love something for you. And so, basically, everywhere I am @josephoforb, just like John Carter of Mars. Joseph of orb. You can find me on Twitter. Actually, just yesterday, it became official that I am now a mentor in the Pitch Wars program, which is a writing program where it's free. You submit to mentors, and I would have a large pool of people who apply. They choose someone to mentor and they go through your manuscript with you. They help guide you through a revision. They help level up your skills and get you closer to your writing goals. So, I was in this program in 2008 teen and soon after signed with literary agent had a book deal. It's a very effective program for budding writer. I highly recommend it because it is free. It's writers helping writers. It does it. There's no downside to just trying. And even if you aren't selected, many of us will turn around and give you helpful feedback about your work. So, I just announced as a mentor yesterday on Twitter there, @josephoforb, I'm going to do my best to post more Instagram photos and videos. People, I'm trying. My wife is very encouraging about taking pictures of being such. And I've been making wooden mad videos on TikTok and this kind of thing, too. I love my [01:05:55-01:05:56].

Jeremy Lesniak:

Nice.

Joe Crawford:

He's a constant companion now for more than 20 years. So back in the day, I used to decorate it for Christmas. Put the lights on them and a top hat like a snowman. Good old with John's. Yeah.

Jeremy Lesniak:

Well, this has been great. I appreciate you coming on. And just going deep on it.

Joe Crawford:

Thank you for having me.

Jeremy Lesniak:

Well, thanks so much, great stuff.

Joe Crawford:

Yeah, I got to tell you, I can't, I sometimes I know I can be too forward and too direct. But why? Why waste our time on the surface, let's get into the area. We can't be scared about confronting ourselves. That's what martial arts is. It's a self-exploration. It's discovering yourself. It's discovering who you are, how you approach stressful situations. How someone engages in martial arts tells you a lot about their personality. How they engage in these stressful situations, how they learned. It's been such a valuable tool for me, it is impossible for me to imagine a life where I was not martial artist, because it was so formative in who I am today. And you know, you have these discussions with your spouse if you're going to have children. Why would you ever force your child to do anything? I wouldn't force them to continue to do something. But the idea of not introducing my child to martial arts and letting them find their martial art, they're what speaks to them. And for me, it was an eclectic mix of things. I'm a forever student. I love moving from discipline to discipline. I think it was Dan Inosanto. That said I love putting on a white belt. I love it. Recently, I've been doing Western martial arts, like HEMA, like broadsword martial arts and these things, and it's just been such a fascinating change of pace. But I'm so glad you had me on today. And thank you so much. Because this is a topic near and dear to my heart. It's central to my being and it's great to meet a kindred soul.

Jeremy Lesniak:

Like I told you, it was a great conversation. One that you might even want to go back and listen to again because there's a lot in there. I really want to thank Joe for coming on in for just doing what he did. I hope you all will check out his book, can give a shout on social media. If you want to go deeper make sure you hit whistlekickmartialartsradio.com. Check out the episode, check out the other episodes, transcript, notes. All that sign up for the newsletter things to help everything we're doing for the show and for the other things we've got going on. And if you like what we do, if you value this organization and our efforts, there are ways you can help. You can tell friends, leave reviews, buy books, buy products at whistlekick. You can use PODCAST15. You can check out our other content anything you do that helps us grow is a value. Of course, we got the patron and remember we have the strength and conditioning program. And I made it, it's awesome. I love it and you can check it out that whistlekickprograms.com if you have guest suggestions, topic suggestions, feedback for the show anything like that let me know, jeremy@whistlekick.com. Our social medias, @whistlekick. Until next time, train hard, smile and have a great day.