Episode 626 - Dr. Jamie Seabrook
Dr. Jamie Seabrook is a Martial Arts practitioner and instructor at the Seabrook Martial Arts Academy.
I think opinions are great, that’s how we generate new ideas, theories, hypothesis, you name it. But, infairness, know something about the topic. Not just what others have said before you go and slam it.
Dr. Jamie Seabrook - Episode 626
If Martial Arts is your life, all decisions point towards it. Dr. Jamie Seabrook planned his college so that he can build his first Martial Arts school. Dr. Seabrook founded his first school at the age of 20 and his passion for teaching did not stop. Today, he is also a University professor and founder of the Seabrook Martial Arts Academy.
Dr. Jamie Seabrook has been training in the martial arts for 36 years and has been running his own school in London, Ontario for 26 years. Dr. Seabrook is an 8th Degree American Kenpo Black Belt (GM Larry Tatum), a Black Belt in Modern Arnis (GM Remy Presas), Black Dragon Kung Fu (Master Paul Chau), and a Blue Belt Stripe 2 in Gracie Jiu-Jitsu (Rener and Ryron Gracie).
Show Notes
You can find out more about Dr. Jamie Seabrook by subscribing to his YouTube channel or Facebook page.
Show Transcript
You can read the transcript below.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Hey, how's it going? Welcome. You're listening to whistlekick Martial Arts Radio, and you are listening to Episode 626 with Dr. Jamie Seabrook. And, of course, I'm Jeremy Lesniak, I'm your host here for the shelf, founder of whistle kick. And a guy who really just loves martial arts, I love training. I love learning. I love talking about martial arts and this show, if you're new to the show, you can go to whistlekick martialartsradio.com, check out everything that we've got going on to the show, transcripts, links, and photos and videos and all that good stuff, you can sign up for our newsletter while you're over there and stay up on all the stuff that we do at whistle =kick. If you want the even easier way to stay up on what we do at whistlekick, you go to whistlekick.com, nice and easy. You're going to see all the things that we're involved in, it's a long list, that's why don't name the list, there's so much stuff going on. And we're adding new things all the time we do not sleep well. It's not true, we do sleep, but probably not as much as we should. Now one of the things you're going to find over at whistlekick.com is our store. And that's one of the ways that we cover our bills, because yeah, there are bills in putting this together. And if you use the code, podcast 15, it saves you 15%, it helps us know that the show leads to sales. Because if the show didn't make us any money at all, it would be a little bit harder to justify, you know, just just keep that in mind. Keep that in mind next time you're thinking about buying something. So you know, just, I'm not saying you have to buy something from us. But I'm saying that if you like the show, you should probably check out what we have to offer once in a while and see if there's anything over there you can get from us. We've got two shows for you each and every week. All because we're trying to connect and educate and entertain you the traditional martial artists. It's why we do all the things we do. And if you want to support us, we've got a few things you can do. There's a long list, but I'm going to give you a few. I mentioned you could buy something at whistlekick.com. And go ahead and do that. You could also tell a friend about the show. And the best thing you can do. If there's an episode that you really enjoy, think of one person that may not know about the show and send them that episode, send them a link, send it from your phone, send it from, you know, the website, whatever works.
And tell them, I want you to listen this episode. And here's why I want you to listen to this episode. Give them a reason. Give them some context. And check it out. And hopefully they stick around and then we gain a listener and then you to get something to talk about. Everybody wins. Now, here's the third thing. You could go to whistlekickprograms.com check out the various complimentary martial arts training where we don't tell you how to do Goju. We don't tell you how to do Taekwondo, we don't teach you how to do this form or that form. We don't tell you how to spar. But what we do have is universal style agnostic training protocols. You want to get faster; we have a program for that. Would you like to get stronger? We have a training protocol for that. Do you want to become the best condition martial artist you've ever been? We have a training protocol for that. And we're adding more all the time. There are a couple more that are in development right now. So, check those out. They are far less expensive than you think they should be. We probably should raise the prices. But I don't like to do that. So, we haven't done it. Because well, we haven't. So, go grab a check about lifetime access. And of course, we've got Patreon. But that's for so... I'm not going to mention that. I will talk about today's episode, Dr. Jamie Seabrook came on we had an awesome conversation we talked about, well, I feel like these intros get repetitive because when I talk to the guests, it's not what we talk about. It's how they talk about it that makes it exciting and fun and different and worth checking out. Because yeah, we're talking about martial arts that the subject matter that we start from, is always the same, but because the person is different, the conversation is different. I'm the same, I'm the same person, but the person I'm talking to is not and that leads to some good stuff in today's conversation was one of those. I had a good time; you're going to have a good time. So instead of finding more to say, I'm just going to shut up and you're going to get to hear this great conversation. Dr. Seabrook, welcome to whistlekick Martial Arts Radio.
Jamie Seabrook:
Thanks so much for having me on your show.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah, I appreciate you being here. Well, you know, here we are. We're on a martial art show. We are martial artists. We're going to talk about martial artists. There's nothing more obvious, and I think appropriate than that. Now, of course, when we start these episodes, there are so many different ways that we can start. So, I'm going to ask something of you that I'm going to guess. I'm taking a risk here that I think you can handle. If someone stops you on the street and they somehow know that you're involved in martial arts and they say, “Hey, tell me something about martial arts”. What would you tell them?
Jamie Seabrook:
I tell him that martial arts can change your life for the positive, not just for the physical exercise that one can get it up, but for mental health as well. For those that do know me, I went through schooling and did my PhD. And I can honestly say that martial art was a massive part of that. I used it as a reward system, actually. So, when I was studying martial, when I was studying for exams, for example, my reward would be after, say, two hours, I'd go and do some contests or some self-defense techniques. And I go and study and so there's just so many rewards, mental and physical one can get into martial arts.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Now, there are a lot of people who love martial arts. I mean, we've got tons of them all over the world, they listen to the show. Hi, everyone. But not everyone's going to use solo training as a reward mechanism. So, there are a number of things that we can take from that. What was it about training that gets you or I shouldn't restrict it to past tense? What is it about training, that you get so pumped about that it's a reward, a lot of people would say, you know, after I do two hours of this rigorous academic studying, I'm going to have a beer, or I'm going to eat candy or have a slice of pizza? You can probably see where my mind goes, my mind goes to food rewards. But they're all kinds of things, you know, play video game, whatever. What is it about martial arts that gets you so excited that it works as a reward for you?
Jamie Seabrook:
Yeah, I just love martial arts so much for the physical exercise. And also, I just feel like it helps me reestablish my mind to be focused. So, it's like, you know, if I've done two hours of intense studying, and, you know, I feel a bit brain fried from what I studied, nothing is better than taking, you know, the next 30 minutes or 40 minutes and going through my forms, or my sets or my techniques or some weaponry, and just reconnecting my mind and body with what I need to be focused on. And it's like, I use it as a reward system. And I feel like there's just so many benefits one can get from martial arts, other than just learning how to defend oneself and learning how to potentially do what you have to do to protect yourself. I get it, get it.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Now, where did this journey start for you? How far back and in the origin story of you are? We rewinding.
Jamie Seabrook:
That started in 1985. And I was 10 years old at the time. And we have an event here in London, Ontario, Canada. It's a Western fair, where they have everything from rides to displays to games and usually at these events back in the mid 80s. They had martial arts demonstrations. They had a few that usually occurred every year. And I was very intrigued by one martial arts master karate master, who was doing things that I thought, how is this possible and at the time, I was really impressed by it where you know, this individual would throw boards up in the air, punch them in the air, they'd break, he'd walk on nails, his display of weaponry was phenomenal. And I looked over at my dad and I said to my dad, I want to do this. And the very next night, I was enrolled in a Kempo karate school in London, Ontario was September 1985. And so, the story goes from there. Oh, wow.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And so, the story goes, what was it that you said you were 10 which is a difficult age for a lot of people to start martial arts. You know, a lot of times you get somebody starts at 10 and they're out at 12. They've bailed on martial arts for soccer, basketball or baseball, whatever some kind of team sport as they start to figure out who they are and their social hierarchy with their friends and everything. Was that you? Or did you just plow through and you've been continuously training martial artists?
Jamie Seabrook:
Well, there's a couple factors one, which is fine and much one of which is more serious. The funny was that I absolutely loved the original Karate Kid movies. Like to the point where the original Karate Kid movie, I basically have the thing memorized, start to end and I still love it, I think because I like the moral stories of them. You know, when people say to me, you know, have you seen such martial arts movie? I'm like, look, if the acting is not good. You can't pay me to watch it like, but The Karate Kid movies besides good acting, I thought very strong moral story. So, I would go in my room and shut the door and pretend I was Daniel LaRusso and but that comes into an NGO within a couple of years, like you said, Jeremy. And, you know, by the time I got to my green belt, and that was 1987. I found myself struggling to want to train all the time. And I remember, you know, telling my dad, I got a sore throat, stomach ache, you know, it's karate night. And something really weird happened in 1987, as a green belt, I won the grand championship in a martial arts tournament. So, I wanted to forms weapons in the spring division, and I have no idea how I wanted because up to that point, I would lose a lot. And that is no fun, you know, getting beat up regularly and coming back for more punishment. Like, that's not the definition of intelligence here. But when I went that grand championship, I was like, “Oh, that was actually fun”. I actually won that. I don't know how I did it. And then someone probably that, you know, came to our school, Master Wally Jay. If you don't know is a famous Jiu jitsu expert. He came and did a demonstration in a seminar on small circle Jiu jitsu. And Wally Jay wasn't an old individual at the time. And I was just amazed by skill, yet humility, that after that seminar, and this is I tell my students this, I went home and I told my parents, I want to do this for the rest of my life. And I never looked back after that point. Like, I'm really impressed. The thing is I'm less impressed by rank, like, nowadays, there are commercialization of martial arts where people get rank, in my view, went way too quickly. I'm impressed with skill, and humility, like people who are confident but humble, that don't have to tell everybody everything they've done in their life and make up fabricated stories to puff themselves up. I love that humility. So, when I look at someone like Wally Jay, it was just so inspiring. I'm like, this man was so little effort is making these people drop like flies during the seminar. And he's so humble. And, and I have a picture of Wally Jay in my garage right now. And it's it resigned from that day of the seminar. And I look at it basically, every time I train.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Cool. You bring up a really, want to call it a divisive topic, but a hot button topic in the martial arts. This idea of rank and skill and, and the correlation between the two. And, you know, one of the things that I think a lot of us fail to realize is the people that we hold up, the ones that we all tend to look at and think very highly of in the martial arts world. You know, very few of them ever talk about rank. You know, Bruce, I'm not aware of Bruce Lee ever going on record and saying, you know, like, I am this rank and doing all these things. And you talk about Wally Jay, and I've known a number of people have talked about Wally Jay, none of them have ever told stories about the number of stripes on his belt or anything like that. And yet, here we are in this in this environment, it's 2021. And we have a lot of people that lead with rank that that is what you know that the story the question that I asked you at the top of the episode, tell me something about martial arts, there are plenty of people who would start that answer with. Well, I am and I have been and such. I think a lot of that has to do with who brings us up? Who raises us in the martial arts? So, there's another question, how were you raised in the martial arts? And how did that impact your views on this subject and others?
Jamie Seabrook:
Yeah, I mean, there's three people. That first of all, there's many, but there's three people that I would say, really transformed my way of thinking. One is my former, our nice instructor, the late Grandmaster Remy Presas, who I started training with in 1987. He was a man who, you know if you've ever seen any of his YouTube videos are trained with them. Literally one of the fastest individuals I've ever seen. Both empty handed with stick with knives, but such a gentle humble man. Like, if you never even know he was in martial arts, if you just kind of hung out with him outside of training with the other individual is a guy named Master Paul Chow, who I got my black belt with and kung fu and Master Chow. Just lead by example. He was so anti-getting ranked quickly to the point where every one of his students that trained under him for a significant in a matter of time, they're all phenomenal. It's like good skill follows that mindset. And so, I'm really fortunate to have learned from Master Paul Chow, and then an American Kempo. It would be my longtime mentor, and teacher Grandmaster Larry Tatum. And Larry Tatum, this is just unbelievable in the sense that I don't know what it is with him as he gets older, he just gets better. And I said to him one time I said away from seminar and I said what’s deal with you? He's like, what do you mean? And I said, how is it that I have old VHS tapes from the 1980s of you moving? And here we are, you know, I think I asked them that this is a book 2019. And you seem so faster now. And he said, well, Jamie, he was very humble. But he said, it's not true. It's not that I'm faster now. I just my perceptual speed is better, in the sense that I'm so trained, and I practice so much that I'm able to see things and read things before they occur, which almost gives the illusion that I'm faster. And I'm like, I'm so impressed. And this is why, I never want to elevate myself because, Jesus, you know, some of the people that I mentioned, Grandmaster Remy Presas, Master Paul Chow, and Grandmaster, Larry Tatum. Like, I just hope one day to be at that skill level, when I'm older, they're just so good. And so that I would just say, Jeremy that passion that they had for martial arts is so intoxicating. And that like, I can't get enough of it. And here I am age 46. I'm probably more in love with martial arts now than when I got my first degree.
Jeremy Lesniak:
There's a word that we may not have heard, here we are, you're going to be Episode 600. And something we may not have heard this word in description of someone's passion for martial arts intoxicating. You know, it's a word that outside of this context, if I just said, what do you think of when I use the word intoxicating? People are going to think about drugs and alcohol, maybe they'll think of love and oxytocin and, you know, feeling like they're overdosing on hormones. But in the context of martial arts, you know, it has a very different meaning. Would you say then, that you are, here's another word that's often related to that word, addicted, are you addicted to martial arts?
Jamie Seabrook:
Totally addicted. And I'm not saying this, please don't take this the wrong way. I'm saying it humbly. The last time I missed a day of training was 2018. And I'm not saying that to myself on the shoulder. It's just something I do every day. And some will say, well, that's not good. That's not healthy. Because you need to give your body time to rest. Maybe that's the case. But I feel like if I take two or three days off, I feel “Oh, it's harder to get back into it”. So, for me, the last day I missed a day of training was 2018. It’s like a daily routine, discipline. But I enjoy it's not like sometimes when you go to work, and you're like, oh, it's hard to get up and get ready and brush your teeth and get changed and get off to work. It just something I love to do. And I just forced it, I forced it. And even if I am limited for time when people say I have no time to train, I would be like, “No, you don't have time not to train”. If your schedule is that busy, you've got to find a way to make it happen. Because it's good for your physical health, it's good for your mental health, it's good for your blood pressure, it's good for stress levels, it changes everything. And the other thing that I haven't really talked about Jeremy is that there's nothing more rewarding than seeing people improve their life because of martial arts through teaching. So, you know, I think of four kids in particular, I'm teaching right now in a group of four. And these kids have been with me. I think they're like three or greenbelt. And one is Junior Brown. They're in our separate kid system with me for many years. At least five, and man. See, these kids grow and be so excited to be at martial arts five years later. It's that's intoxicating, because I feel like it's like, wow, you really can change lives. And that's what I love so much about martial arts.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I'm right there with you. When someone tells me they don't have time to train, instead of saying you don't have time not to train my responses is a little more confrontational, and hits. You're just saying there are other things that are more important.
Jamie Seabrook:
Yeah, absolutely.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And that's okay. But I kind of want to go to the heart of something that you just said about the consistency when you follow the most successful people in the world at anything, whether we're talking success in financial terms, or anything doesn't matter. In there are so many books written about this, one of the things that you see come up time and time again, is around discipline and building habits. Why is this show successful? Because we've built habits with it. Why are you successful as a martial artist, because you've built habits? Anybody who's successful, who is successful at anything, has built a habit that led up to it, the idea of the, you know, you roll out of bed today, and you're the best in the world at a thing or rich tomorrow. It doesn't exist and happens in movies. That's not real life. And so, I love the fact that you're so open that sometimes you have to kind of force it to get it going. Because there is a reality there. You know, we don't always feel like training. But you find the reward. Now, I think you said 2018. Do you remember the last day you didn't train?
Jamie Seabrook:
I don't actually remember that day. But what it is, Jeremy is someone who I know very well, Master, Sean Kelley said to me, you know, what's a really good idea? [00:21:16-00:21:17] has to log everything you do. So, what do you mean? He said, it just like, write down, you know, what forms he did, what techniques you did, what weapons you did, whatever it might be? How many times you sparred how many times you ruled? And what that will do is it does not only motivate you to train more, but to let you see where you're missing certain areas that need attention. So, I've been doing that. I don't know, since around 2012, around there. And because of that, it's so motivating, because I'm like, oh, here's the thing. I've been touched in a while. So, yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Right on, right on. When did you start teaching? And well, I'll follow up after that.
Jamie Seabrook:
Sure. Yeah. So, I got my black belt first degree in Kempo in August of 1990. So, 31 years ago, I got my black belt. And then I got my black belt in 1991. Under Grandmaster Remy Presas. And are nice. I got my black belt in Black Dragon Kung Fu in 1984. Under Master [00:22:25-00:22:26] those are my three main ranks. American Kenpo, [00:22:31-00:22:32] and Black Dragon Kung Fu. And then as I opened my school in August of 1995, and I've had my school ever since although I teach it on a quote, part time basis. I don't know what part time means, because it's pretty much every single day of the week I teach. I'm a full time Professor, although it's been kind of nice, is I've been on sabbatical for the last year. So, I basically, I'm trading almost morning tonight and have tons of very committed students. And so, since 1995, I've opened my school and then I should say that in 2012, January 2012, one of my closest friends and one of black thunder me, [00:23:15-00:23:16] said why don't we start Gracie Jiu Jitsu? Somewhere like, you know, up to this point, it's very striking arts can pose a straight in or kung fu is a striking art. Modern Eastern striking. Yes, there's a little bit grappling, a little bit here and there, but not really. I know a lot say there's tons of grappling, you just got to know where to look. How many years experienced need to need to know where to look. So, I started Gracie Jiu Jitsu in January 2012. And it has been such an amazing experience because I think every high-ranking black belt should lose and lose regularly. And I really mean that journey because it's like, it's so easy to puff yourself up on such and such rate. You know, I've been training for this long. But the thing about it, if you train and Gracie Jiu Jitsu, or another Brazilian Jiu jitsu style, you know, whatever it might be, you're going to lose and you're going to lose a lot from tapping and being armbar and being choked. That's part of it, but it's so good for me because it's not that I'm using Jiu jitsu on its own. It helps me rethink many things that I do in American Kenpo, which is my primary base art. It makes me rethink you know, the way I do it a chokehold or what it really means to be caught because we get so in choreograph mode gravity here, I can get out grabbing here. I can, sometimes you can, if it's properly applied, you know, unlike a dojo mode, you're going to sleep if it's properly applied. So, Jiu jitsu has been such a rewarding experience for me and it just reshapes a lot that, I think.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I get that you open your school young if I'm doing my math right, 20.
Jamie Seabrook:
Exactly at 20.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Go ahead.
Jamie Seabrook:
No, funny thing is Jeremy, I had one goal. And one goal only to get my quick undergraduate degree, which was the Bachelor of Arts degree in sociology, and then get out and open my school. And the funny thing is two years later, so this would be like August 97. Like, okay, why do I have no 80 students, which is pretty good. And why? Why am I? Why am I making so little while rent is so high in a commercial spot. So back, I go, I do my honors degree and master's degree, go back into the workforce, continue teaching part time all the way through. And then I had this silly idea 2008 to go back and do a PhD, but it worked really well for me, but I've continued my school throughout. And, you know, when people are like, how, you know, how are you a professor at a university and do martial arts? Why do you go to the gym, you go to the gym, because you want to work out? Because it's good for your physical mental health. This is just what I do. Martial Arts is my life.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Right on? Yeah. Now I want to go back, I want to unpack that statement of high-ranking instructors need to learn to lose. You know, you talked about starting BJJ. This is something that comes up, you know, we talked about on this show, and this is not my turn, but we talked about it as the white belt mentality, this idea that there's always more to learn, you can start over. There's a lot of benefit there. Without, you know, going deeper in your credentials, I've got some things on here that if you want to share, I'll let you share them. I'm not going to. But starting over, based on where you've taken your martial arts training is not something very many people are going to do, especially in art that is so dramatically different. And one that for anybody who has done any Brazilian Jiu Jitsu knows that you really spend first, what, 3/6/12 more months just getting the crud kicked out.
Jamie Seabrook:
Yeah, absolutely. Talk about that. Sure. Yeah. Well, first of all, I respect anyone who's devoted their life to martial arts, and as you know, has impacted others has achieved a high rank, but I just agree with a lot of other higher ranking Kempo black belts on one thing, and that is the idea that, well, you don't just, it's striking as all you need. You know, if you look at the early UFC, it's very supportive. I go, is it though? Yes, now we're in rounds and time limits. Those early UFC, were not supportive. There were no rules, you couldn't bite, you couldn't I gouge? And by the way, if you did, you didn't lose. You didn't lose. You got a warning? I mean, how much rawer can you get? So, I feel like Jeremy. Yeah, you know, whether certain fights were kind of picked. But someone like Royce Gracie, you came back and thought, you know, three times in one night. Like, you have to understand, like, a lot of these striking arts had a mindset, that I'm just going to knock the smaller guy out. But what happened was, you know, Royce really exposes the world to the idea that the two safest spots to be in a fighter far away, or skin tight. So, if you're, if the person can't hit you, because the range is such where you're outside the range, you're safe, then we tie you up and clenches you, takes away their punches, takes away the kicks, takes away their knees, takes away their elbows, down, they go, we need to get on top of you, mountain, guard, whatever, triangle choke, whatever. So, I feel like as a as a martial artist, who truly tries to make oneself better and my students better. How can I ignore that? How can I adopt possibly a mindset and be really frank here, have a lot of not just American Kenpo experts, but other striking arts going on? I just missed it. All that stuff is just sport, really. I mean, it seemed like a lot of these striking experts couldn't do a whole lot. Now I'm not advocating the best spot to be a straight face on the ground, certainly in multiple attack situations, of course not. But to think that if you're taken to the ground, and you've learned all these stand-up stills and striking skills. And it didn't work. It didn't work out what it was meant to out strike someone to and then you get away, you got taken to the ground, all of a sudden, it's going to work on the ground, I don't believe it. I don't believe it because I don't believe that if you're not good enough to win the fight stand up that you're all of a sudden, you're good on the ground when they've taken you there, you better have some, you better have some skills. So, it was very humbling, but so good for my martial arts journey to go, Wow. I guess my Kempo isn't working too great on the ground. It was great for me; it was great for my students.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Now, I say this as someone who I don't hold a blackout rank and come up. But I do hold [00:30:41-00:30:42] and I respect the art tremendously. The idea that we would say adding some diversity, some range diversity to our skill set is irrelevant and a waste of time, coming from an art that espouses a tremendous diversity of hand striking techniques. You don't need 42 ways to strike someone in the face. And yet, and I'm saying that with a little bit meaning a little bit of humor there. Just to say, one makes sense. And the other doesn't. Seems a little contradictory to me.
Jamie Seabrook:
Yeah, I completely agree. And the other thing that really shocked me Jeremy about Gracie Jiu Jitsu, which I had no idea about until I started training it is the misconception that Gracie Jiu Jitsu is an art that only fights on the ground. And I have to say this, I know more stand-up techniques in Gracie Jiu Jitsu that I know in Kempo. And that includes all the extensions up to the end of the green extensions. But people don't think that they think... It's just you know, how to escape them out how to do an American armlock, how to do an armbar, how to do a triangle [00:32:00—00:32:01], I've learned more stand-up techniques and Gracie than I have learned in American Kenpo. And I'm not slamming Kempo. I'm just saying that it's easy to criticize a martial art. But if you've never taken a single lesson, I have to say, the opinion matters less. And I'm all for opinions. And I'm trying to say this in a humble way. I think opinions are great. That's how we generate new ideas, theories, hypotheses, you name it. But in fairness, know something about the topic, not just what others have said before you're going slammed.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I agree. Now, when we talk about people, and let's broaden this out, you know, it's not just Kenpo practitioners who will criticize things. There are people from all over the world training in all variety of martial arts who are so committed to their art, that they will go through these mental gymnastics or maybe not necessarily mental gymnastics, they are so committed that they will denigrate and exclude training in other things, because they think what they do is all they need. How many of them do you think genuinely believe that? And how many of them are jumping through some mental hoops and trying to justify it to themselves?
Jamie Seabrook:
Great question and tough answer. So, I feel like there are a large proportion of people who have got their mindset, my martial artists superior. But I also feel that there's also a good percentage of people that go and watch people from different martial arts and go off. But it means having to reach change things in one's life. It means that if you're in a martial art, and I'm not going to name a martial art, but if you're in a martial art that maybe is much more in the sort of realm, and you're trying to focus, your passion is how to defend oneself in the street situation, because I'm very self-defense to me. You know, when someone comes into my school, they're not coming and going, can you teach me how to win at the next tournament, and I'm not being negative towards tournaments, because I certainly used to compete a lot more to challenge myself than anything. But I believe that people come in to learn self-defense. So, I do think there's a large proportion of people that are recognizing, yeah, there's more stuff out there. But if you're a high rank black belt, and I'm going to be really frank, and you've almost had an appearance or an aura to your students and others, really, really high. It is hard. It's humbling to have to go, you know, to make significant changes, I have to learn something else. And that's why I don't discredit. I don't discredit martial arts. Until I've trained in it like, the other thing is critical analysis and criticizing traditional arts. And man, they could hit so that you know, because my art is more, you know, “modern”, and we can talk about whatever that means because it can mean a variety of things to different people. You know, sometimes it really comes down to how hard are you training, it's like when people go, I train under so and so. So that means that my lineage is better than your lineage doesn't mean a whole lot if you're not training a lot. Great, you learn under that person. But how often do you train?
Jeremy Lesniak:
Would you rather have a very reliable high-quality firearm with one round and the magazine or a lower quality one with a full magazine?
Jamie Seabrook:
Exactly, what I was getting at, Jeremy.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I get it, I get it. Okay. Let's shift gears a little bit here. You've had the chance, I mean, the names that you mentioned. I'm not going to speculate which of those names is more well known to the people that are listening, you know, I'm familiar with all three of these individuals, and pretty phenomenal that you've had the opportunity to grow up in the martial arts with all three of them. I mean, I don't want to say luck. But fortunate, I mean, absolutely amazing. If you were to kind of do an autopsy on you as a martial artist, and carve pieces off and say, you know, this came from this person, and this came from this person. What's the most substantial part of who you are as a martial artist that can be attributed to each of them individually?
Jamie Seabrook:
Oh, yeah, I could do that. So let me start with Grandmaster and in 2000, and make sure I get my year right here. 2004, I think it was 2004 or 2005. I got my sixth-degree black belt from [00:37:15-00:37:16]. And it was interesting, because that was the first rank that I got through Grandmaster [00:37:24-00:37:25], and I got my sixth/seventh and eighth from him. But my first rank, I've heard him was a sixth degree. And he said something, he'll totally forget this, but I'm sure you'll listen and go on. Now, I remember. He said something to me, that was so groundbreaking. First of all, it gave me really, really good feedback, which meant a lot coming from him. But in fairness, I'm kind of like, Okay, great, I got it. But where do I go from here? How do I improve? Because no one's perfect at any test? The whole idea, you have to be perfect at your test is my opinion or you fail? Come on. To me making mistakes is part of our growth. And he said something that changed my whole martial arts journey in 2004. He said, Jamie, it's really obvious that you've watched all of my DVDs. Because you had the movements, like I was moving almost exact for every technique. And he said, while I appreciate your movement, and how well you did you moved, stop trying to move like me and move like yourself, put your own signature on Kempo. And it was like, no, horrible like shackles off. Because like I always tried to, can move like Tatum because I looked at him and his skill level and how he moved as the epitome of this is how I want to move. And he says, okay, we're not the same height. We're not the same way. You're built different than me. And you need to move like yourself.
And from that point forward, it was like, pressure came off me every time I trained with him and tested, there was no pressure. It was more just can I perform at the level that I know I'm capable of without having the pressure of trying to move like master tape because I can't move like [00:39:22-00:39:23], I was trying. So that was put it for Larry to the other interesting thing. He said to me that that again, he probably won't remember what I said, how do you see everything in your techniques like he does this? Or if he does this, I do this? And he said, well, in Kempo, we often try to do the same choreograph moves over and over and over but there comes a point where that can only take you so far. He said you need to think always up the perspective of the attacker. And when you take that attackers perspective, you learn how to create on your own. So, I'm like, yeah, that's basic. But that is so true. So, when I'm working with my black belts, I'll say, hey, what else could you do? What else could you do? And it allows me the freedom to not be bound by techniques, kind of like a Bruce Lee thing, but actually be able to pick and choose at any time, what I feel is most appropriate given the circumstance. So that's Tatum. Master Paul Chow. Master Paul Chow is one of the best fighters I've ever seen. He's a ninth-degree black belt and Black Dragon kung fu and trained under his dad, runs a successful school, Northern Black Dragon Martial Arts. Besides, I think what he did is he taught me more gracefulness. So, stop moving like a robot, like, body flow. And he got me, I'll be honest, very good at sparring, because we fought and we fought a lot. And it was very humbling. And he really pushed in me that as you continue to move up in rank, it is very common, sometimes more common than not, that you never see the head instructor ever star ever, you know, so they'll demonstrate their techniques. You know, this is how I view it Jeremy, it's easy to look good when it's choreographed. But the reality is I spar with all my black belts. I get caught, I get hit in the head, I get it.
Jeremy Lesniak:
You can hold high rank and be an instructor without being perfect.
Jamie Seabrook:
Well, that's what I'm getting at. And it's humbling, like, it's humbling to take, we fight with control with Chi technique, because we want to train to learn or 90s. But it's humbling to eat a nice sidekick once in a while and not have that. I actually think it's easier for me, than to put myself on a pedestal, where they view me like, I'm at a whole different realm of life than them like that's ridiculous. So, I go out there and I spar and I think Paul Chow is probably getting close to age 70. And still scars like, that's not unbelievable. And you know, he's fighting 20-year-old, 25-year-old black belt. So, he inspired me that way. And then Grandmaster Remy Presas, one of the nicest guys I've ever met. He really taught me that I'm not only going to be good with sticks and knives, but really to flow. So, yes, we have weapons in Kenpo. And I know some will say, well, Kenpo was also a weapons-based system. I don't think it's an empty hand base system. When I look at the ED Parker's Kenpo Creed, it says, [00:42:51-00:42:53], not my weapons. And then it says I have no weapons. So, Kenpo is an empty hand system, which also uses a little bit of weapons. But I believe to be good and weapons, you need to learn a weapons-based system. That's my personal opinion. And Remy taught me that. And more importantly, he just taught me to that not to be bound, that, you know, so all the stick and knife drills is not to be bound by a specific movement, but just to flow. So, it's kind of like, I heard a story. And I'm just like, oh, my gosh, that is so inspiring. I heard a story of someone who trained under Danny Inosanto. And this is how I think, too. And Danny Inosanto was teaching a really cool, I believe it was double knife drill. And the person said to me, I loved it so much. And I sent it to Danny, I said, we haven't done that drill forever. And Danny said something to him.
And he told me and he said, that's because I don't want you to be bound by movement. Whereas our mindset is how many repetitions can I get in this? And then how often is my instructor review that and I understand that way of thinking too, but I love that gave me a subtle approach to be bound by movement. Learn something and then we're going to go back to it and just be happy freer flowing almost like a Bruce Lee. [00:44:22-00:44:23] philosophy. And that's really what Remy taught me. And the other thing I remember too about Remy would be every time you thought, you were good with knives like everyone says, you know, I'm an expert with knives. Rarely would put like, you know, things like lipstick on rubber knives, and your shirts like completely red. Apparently, I'm not as good as I thought. But that's good thing because it makes you sure more serious about when you work with knives and not to have this illusion that you're some expert that disarming knives with your blindfolded. Were just so inspirational to me. And same with the other person. I think what really helped me choose is Master Sean Kelley, who really taught me not be flat footed. So, we see a lot of what we call them in Kenpo, you know neutral bow. And we finished moves in a neutral bow, but with an elbow or any type of a strike or not really feet, what we call facing or work. We don't have a bracing angle when we're striking. So, I don't know, I do a classic technique five Storeys, and I finished with that downward hand story, and I'm flat footed. The reality is if that person pushes me off balance, but it works great and demos. Demos will never fail you. This is what I argue, demos will always work, they'll never fail you. But on a real opponent, if you're not, if you don't have a bracing angle, if you're not facing your work, you're not generating the same power. And you're not, in my opinion, executing Kenpo, like you can. So, Sean Kelley, you know, who trained under [00:46:09-00:46:14] really taught me the importance of having that back foot up when I'm doing my Kenpo, and it's changed the way I move.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I can see that. Yeah. Now we've touched on this subject a couple times, maybe even three times in our conversation today. And it's this idea of whether you want to call it reality or pressure testing or how the real world works. And it's something that martial artists get really wrapped around the [00:46:44-00:46:45] in a variety of ways. Some will devote all their training to things that they think are reality based, and if it doesn't have, you know, a 99% correlation to what would happen in real life. It's useless training. And then you've got other people who will defend other things and, and really, we again, we, we argue about this, but it sounds like this is something that you have some balance with some of the things that you're training, you are aware of this correlation with reality. Am I reading that right?
Jamie Seabrook:
Yeah, absolutely. I've done train... who's trained? Help trained Ronda Rousey? For example, in the UFC. I've trained with Royce Gracie and they get seminars, and they'll say the same thing. Rener Gracie, he'll say, “Okay, this is Street”. This is more for those who go into sporting grounds. And sometimes its people want to do BJJ, for example, but it's completely different. Because in a BJJ tournament, you know, you can be the bottom of the garden. Be good to go. There's nothing... Not doing anything to really to try to submit you. The person's getting points or [00:48:15-00:48:16] and you're fine on the bottom. You’re escape escaping all of their mounts and missions, but they're accumulating points because they mount that sport, whereas the differentiation is for what Rener will say is okay, now that we're not, we're in the street realm. So, in the street realm things like not understanding distance management. Rener Gracie says one of the seminars, he said it was unbelievable, he said, and this nothing is normally taught, I bet a lot of BJJ schools, he said if you're in a school, one hour class, and the word punch doesn't come run for the door. Because the focus is on sports. The reality has to do in a real fight. They don't just come up and gently grab a hold of your Gi and try to get a takedown and then now, people try to hit you. So, you always have to be aware of punch protection, distance management, and then Royce would say, if something doesn't work on the street, I refuse to teach it. So, it's just different mindset. I understand both. I mean, I understand both, but I try to do things more that are reality based. Now, I know like for example, I love the saber. I know I'm not going to walk around, let it carry on with the saber but I feel like things like weapons really helped footwork coordination, which in turn helps things like sparring and your forms and your techniques etc.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I'm right there with you, you know, to go back to a firearm analogy. Soldiers don't only train by shooting people. Yeah, there's room for drills, there's room for unpacking and work, working certain things there are, there's value in training that isn't always complete, you know, you can take the footwork from doing this form, or you can take the strength building aspect of doing something in this way and piecemeal together because martial arts training is for, to me, and it sounds like to you and I believe to most people, it's about more than learning how to fight.
Jamie Seabrook:
Absolutely, absolutely. And that's true like what if someone find what I'm talking about, because I'm in martial arts, but if someone says to me, and they hear up in martial, how many fights have been zero? Yeah, zero. How? I’m trying to avoid? Like, I bet a lot of contacts face, that's for sure. In the street. So, and it's like, when I hear a blank will go, yeah, no teaching a seminar. I've been in well over 20 fights, and I've won them all. I'm just going to be honest, Jeremy, where are you going? Like, who wants to be in these many fights? Do you know what I mean? Like, one of my demography professors, I was an undergrad and time said, I'm just talking about this, [00:51:36-00:51:38] and he said something like, you know, a play theory can explain two thirds of every... So, students go two thirds and everything. How do you explain that? And he said, “Well, you know, if you look at it, for example, events, and times, events are limited”. So, where you're going, if you're in an environment where you're consistently going out, for example, where there's heavy drinking, you know, the odds of violence increase. If you're, unfortunately, a lot of people get into offense, use the odds of violence increases, and people to improve their mental health. Ultimately, it leads to worse mental health. So, where you go matters. I'm happy to stay put with at home with my wife. And when I'm not with her, I'm usually training. So, it's kind of like, you know, where you choose to go matters as well.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah, there's a line not from The Karate Kid movie that you and I love, but from the next Karate Kid. And, you know, many of us will remember this one, “fighting not good”.
Jamie Seabrook:
Absolutely.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Must win.
Jamie Seabrook:
Right, Mr. Miyagi. And now, by the way, Jeremy, I have to tell you, I'm just making... I'm old school. Just loving the corporate high series.
Jeremy Lesniak:
It's so good. Isn’t it? It's so good.
Jamie Seabrook:
It's awesome. I can't.
Jeremy Lesniak:
She won't watch it?
Jamie Seabrook:
She’s like, he's okay. You know, I love it, because it brings back my 80s.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Exactly. Yeah, you've got just a couple years on me. But we're roughly the same age started training at roughly the same time. And I think you and I, and many others who started martial arts in the 80s. You know, we're the perfect person to watch that show. It's like it was custom made for us. And I remember [00:53:46-00:53:49] I think they were. I think they were. Actually, we had Jon Hurwitz, one of the writers on the show and he didn't say that it was written for us, which was really sad. You know, he did not identify as we're not in the credits, which is kind of a bummer. But we can still believe it. Maybe they just didn't want to admit it publicly.
Jamie Seabrook:
I've tried a little bit with Daryl Vidal on Twitter, good guy. I didn't really know him very well. The Karate Kid, the original but good guy. Super humble. I've watched some of his YouTube phenomenal martial artists. And the cool thing about him is I'm like, wow, same martial arts, not American Kenpo. Granted, but Kenpo and Filipino martial arts. So, really cool guy. Fingers crossed. He's coming back.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah, yeah, really cool guy. We had the pleasure of talking to him on episode 508. Yep. He came on. Yeah, it is amazing to see that return, that kind of full circle. There was a wonderful podcast, I listened to none of martial arts podcast, but WTF with Marc Maron. And he has Billy Zabka on, and they got to talk about this really long arc of his life. And I think it's really interesting to look at both Zabka and [00:55:15-00:55:56] and what they did before and after The Karate Kid films, and how really you can almost track their careers to this inevitable moment where they come back together to do this show. It's almost unavoidable if you look at their trajectories.
Jamie Seabrook:
Think such a good job. I bet. [00:55:44-00:55:45] read the story. I love what they've done with [00:55:49-00:55:50]. Amazing, amazing story. And now I'm hearing good old Terry Silver's coming back, which makes it even more exciting. Can't wait.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah, it's a great show. Are you seeing any kind of an impact in your school from the series? Is that doing anything for you?
Jamie Seabrook:
No, not really. I'm finding Jeremy. It's those like us that have been around in the 80s for the originals that are really loving it and many of my black belts who've been with me a long, long time. We talk about it outside of our training hours, of course. So, it's something I look forward to. I don't watch a lot of shows to be honest. I watch a lot of sports. And so, it is one of the views. I really, really, really enjoy.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Nice. Nice. What sports do you watch?
Jamie Seabrook:
Well, I’m a diehard... Well, this is embarrassing to say. I'm a diehard Toronto Maple Leafs fan. They break my heart every year.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I'm so sorry.
Jamie Seabrook:
I'm a Cleveland Browns fan. Now, they're looking really good. So, those are and of course, I watched a lot of UFC as well, for me to learn, to meet Daniel Cormier. And I was good.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Oh, cool. How was he? Was he a nice guy?
Jamie Seabrook:
Oh, my God, our family went down to Vegas. And it was four days before he fought john Jones’ first fight. And as the funniest story, we're in the MGM Grand. We have some time to kill before we go back to the airport. So, at the far end of the MGM Grand and the elevator opens up and who is it? Daniel Cormier. So, he, you know, opens the elevator door and says, hey, are you coming on? And I'm thinking like, this is weird, Jeremy, I'm not making this up. He's always been my favorite fighter of all time, just because I love his down to earth. You know, and how great of a fighter is. So, I said, no, we're not coming on. But you're getting off. And he goes, pardon. I go, I really need you, Daniel to come off this elevator to come meet my family. And he laughed. And he came out and did his pictures with my daughters, and so down to earth, and so easy to talk to. Great guy.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And there's another example of someone who has taken things so far. They don't hide behind the trappings of success and fame. They recognize the value of what they have, and that others gave it to them, that they hold the position because of others, and willing to engage. And that's one of the things that I've learned and in having the show, when we finally were talking about somebody who's you know, a big name, if we can get to them. They say yes, absolutely. It's the people who think they're a bigger deal than they are. I'd say “No, those are the ones that say no”, it's like, “okay, it's fine”.
Jamie Seabrook:
Yep, completely agree.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah. Well, this this has been great. If people want to get a hold of you, see what you got going on, website, social media, email, anything like that you're willing to share?
Jamie Seabrook:
Yeah, absolutely. My email is very easy. It's jamieseabrook@live.ca. If you type in [01:09:28-01:09:29], Google, you'll find a bunch of things and I also have a Facebook martial arts page, so they can find me there and I also have a YouTube channel. So, if you just type in Jamie Seabrook on YouTube, I'm constantly posting videos, I do it all free of charge. And I just love to give back. So, it's something that I thoroughly enjoy. And my daughters or my daughters that film me always get a gift card for filming.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Nice, nice. Well, this has been great. It's been a lot of fun. I appreciate that you were willing to go to some lesser discussed topics with me, that's always one of my favorite things. So, thanks for doing that. Thanks for coming on. And, you know, this is where we wind down, I'm going to record an outro. But what are your last words to the audience?
Jamie Seabrook:
I just want to say thanks so much, Jeremy, for having me on the show. It’s truly been a pleasure. And, you know, I just say for anyone, if you used to train and you stopped, you can always pick yourself back up. So, you know, a lot of people say, “Well, I trained a long time ago, I just can't get back”, Sure you can. Martial art is for anyone of any age. And you can use it to make yourself better physically, mentally. And when you're better physically and mentally, still have those around you because that will transpire it and inspire, I should say others around you.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I told you, that was a great conversation. And I want to thank you for listening to it. I want to thank Dr. Jamie for coming on. And having such a good conversation with me. It's been, you know, I still can't get over there. There are episodes, this really comes through for me, and this was one of them, where I kind of take a step back and I'm like, you know, this is really part of my job. Do I really get to do this and call it work? I'm so lucky. So, thanks for coming on the show. Thanks for your kindness, your generosity, your openness. Thanks for the great conversation. And I do hope we get to talk again soon. Now, you, the listener, thanks for sticking around. I'm going to give you a couple things that I think are really important for you to know. So, hopefully, you'll listen to the next 90 seconds of my voice. First off, if you want to go deeper on this episode, please go to whistlekickmartialartsradio.com and check out Episode 626. We'll get the transcript, we'll get the photos and the videos and links and all this stuff that we do for this and the other episodes, sign up for the newsletter while you're over there. If you want to support us, here are a couple things you can do. Send this or another episode, your favorite episode to somebody who hasn't checked out the show yet. Tell them why you want them to listen to it. And then hopefully they will. If you want to get faster, go to whistlekickprograms.com. Check out the speed development program. It is unreal, you will get faster than you've ever thought possible seriously, if you don't, if you do it and you don't, I'll give you your money back. Just plain, plain and simple. You can also support our Patreon, patreon.com/whistlekick. If you go to patreon, if you contribute to the Patreon, we give you exclusive content you don't see anywhere else. If you love the show. You can probably find two, five, maybe even 10 bucks a month to get extra bonus stuff including now. Free merch. So, check that out. Now, if you've got feedback, guest suggestions, something like that. Email me jeremy@whistlekick.com. And don't forget to follow us on social media at whistlekick. Until next time, train hard, smile and have a great day.