Episode 603 - Revisiting Martial Arts Etiquette

In this episode, Jeremy and Andrew are Revisiting Martial Arts Etiquette.

Revisiting Martial Arts Etiquette - Episode 603

Etiquettes are different from one school to another although, there are some rules that everyone shares such as bowing. Recently, some etiquette rules have come up and some of them are rather weird. In this episode, Jeremy and Andrew are Revisiting Martial Arts Etiquette where they unpack some of the important rules that Martial Arts schools employ today. Listen to learn more!

Show Transcript

You can read the transcript below.

Jeremy Lesniak:

Hey! What's happening everybody? Welcome! This is whistlekick martial arts radio. Today, Andrew and I are going to revisit the subject of martial arts etiquette. Now, if you don't know me, if you don't know Andrew, if you don't know whistle kick, you should start at whistlekick.com see all the things that we're doing. I'm Jeremy Lesniak, co-host Andrew Adams and is it fair to say Andrew the you also love traditional martial arts? Am I putting words in your mouth?

Andrew Adams:
No, that's incredibly fair to say…
Jeremy Lesniak:
All right, so we both love traditional martial arts and that's everybody involved at whistle kick loves traditional martial arts and that's why we do all the things that we do from this show which you can find more out about at whistlekickmartialartsradio.com. To all the products that we have at whistlekick.com there's a lot going on. And if you find something at whistlekick.com in the store that you like use the code podcast 15, it's gonna save you 15% off, we bring you two episodes each and every week, with the goal of connecting, educating and entertaining the traditional martial artists of the world. If you want to help the show and the work that we do there are lots of ways you can help, you could make a purchase, like I said you could share this or some other episode with people on social media or via email or 01:14 say listen or watch this. You could follow us on social media we're @whistlekick and you could also pick up a book on Amazon, you can leave a review or sports Patreon. If you think that the new shows that we do are worth a whopping 63 cents apiece, that works out to five bucks a month. If you contribute five bucks a month to our Patreon, patreon.com/whistlekick. We're going to give you bonus material, behind the scenes, exclusive audio. Let's see what have we done recently, I wrote a behind the scenes, recently about what episodes were coming, and a few, just kind of thoughts on how some of them went and everything you get, it's a little bit more raw. 

So if you liked the show and you find yourself listening to every episode, you're probably going to find it worthwhile to jump in on the Patreon. 

So Andrew, back on, you said it was 131, Episode 131 we're going way back. 

Andrew Adams:
Yep. 

Jeremy Lesniak:
I did an episode solo, talking about martial arts etiquette. But it's been a while, and I think it's time to talk about it again. And actually this was your idea. So, what were your thoughts on what this conversation even looks like?

Andrew Adams:
This topic came to mind when there were some etiquette, quote unquote rules that had come up with that I had heard of at either at my dojo or at other schools. And it got me to thinking, why do we do those things, some of them I understand and make sense to me, and some of them, I don't know that it's healthy for us to do. And I thought, you know, why don't we discuss and unpack some of these, what some would consider weird etiquette question, and some of these to be completely honest, Jeremy, listeners maybe like 03:05 that's nothing our school I've never heard of that, that's okay.
Jeremy Lesniak:
There's a lot of variants.
Andrew Adams:
There are a lot of different variants, a lot of different schools, handle things and do things differently. These are just ones that I personally thought of, and you may have some as well, that you may want to bring up.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah, I think it's important, whatever you do and this is this is one of the things that I feel strongly about in life. If you cannot take one of your closely held beliefs and opinions and take it and set it down and look at it and unpack it, analyze it have conversation about it. It's not really a something that you should put weight into. If you can't defend it and part of defending it is being vulnerable about it.

If you can't say, like let's come up with something ridiculous, cutting my grass, right, I'm not doing that right now because it's winter and there's snow on the ground. But if someone says, Hey Jeremy, you don't cut your grass enough which there are people in my neighborhood who probably think I don't cut my grass enough.
Instead of instantly getting defensive, let's have a conversation about it. Well, why is it important to us that I cut my grass more? Here's why it's important to me that I don't cut my grass more, you're looking at it from aesthetics, I'm looking at it from the health of the ecosystem of my grass because I tend to plant things into my lawn, like more garden beds. The more I keep that grass short, right. 

So, I'm willing to have that conversation. And if somebody convinces me, hey actually here here's a reason why, see this is where the examples getting weird. If here's why if you cut your grass more, it would actually be healthier for the lawn. Okay I'll consider that I'll take a look at I'll have a conversation with, I'm not going to shut you down and say, you're wrong. I'm not going to just throw up my hands. 

And so some of the things I expect we're going to talk about today are things that people would potentially just throw up their hands, well this is how we've always done it so 05:14. Just because something is what we've always done, does not mean it's something we should always do. Things end and things start. And in order for things to start something usually has to end. You cannot have progress without change, and thus it is important that we are willing to be willing, it is important that we are willing to have these conversations even if they're difficult, because it opens the opportunity for progress.
Andrew Adams:
Yep, absolutely. Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Where do you want to start? Are we gonna go just example by example? 05:50 
Andrew Adams:
I mean, there are some that I think will be fairly universal, regardless of what school or style that your dojo or dojang is, and that would be things like taking off your shoes when you enter, and bowing when you go on the floor.

Jeremy Lesniak:
I actually don't think either of those are universal, you get a lot of schools now especially schools that are that have blurrier lines with fitness classes that will allow people to wear shoes.
Andrew Adams:
Interesting. It just hasn't been my experience as well. 

Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah, and this is one of the things that I love about martial arts is that there are so many different ways of doing these things. And what I find is that different rules, different etiquette, creates different cultures. So for example, I've trained in one school that did not have a formal balloting process. I did not like that because I found that people were not able to as easily draw a line between what happened before and during class, their content or personal conversations would just kind of flow in the class. It was like, oh I don't like this.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah. Yep.
Jeremy Lesniak:
So in that case, you could call it etiquette, because it's a rule to a cultural, social mores? Is that is that the word I'm looking for there? 

Andrew Adams:
Yeah, I can see that.

Jeremy Lesniak:
That fits into a school or doesn't fit into another school, and it has an impact. And I suspect that if we, however, we look at these, whichever ones we look at, we'll find that there is an aspect of a cultural result within that school for all of them.
Andrew Adams:
Yep and I guess it holds true that most of my training has been in Japanese martial arts, Japanese Okinawan styles. And so the taking off of your shoes and bowing when you enter is, it could very well be a very cultural thing.

Jeremy Lesniak:
Right, there's something that comes in from the geographic culture, or the historical culture, not necessarily the martial arts culture, and some of these are are that bowing. You mentioned bowing is the other semi universal one. And I think bowing is more common in that taking off the shoes. I've seen plenty of schools where they will bow, but not take off the shoes and bowing isn't even always, bowing as we think about it you know I'm tipping my head. You know I've seen bowing be, you know, kind of a kind of a handshake and in Capoeira when you step into a hora it's not a bow, but there is something that is exactly the same occurrence, it is, or the same intent, it is hey, we are about to play together to train together, and I respect you, I acknowledge you. What a bow is? 

Andrew Adams:
Yep, and those ones, like I don't I don't have a big issue on I think it's fine taking off your shoes when you enter and you know bowing is you know, showing respect, either to a person or to the room that's fine, but let's talk about lining up by rank. 

Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah, but there's an interesting one. And in my mind this comes from militaristic cultures and traditions and if we go back, martial arts has an aspect of militarism, to it in a lot of the ways that we think about it. Now I can't say for certain how much of that was there before the majority of the current crop of martial arts, which had at least in Western culture, a strong origination point in overseas, military occupation. If you're teaching your soldiers who are used to lining up, it may make sense to line them up by rank. Right, where's the other place that we could line people up by rank, it's in the military. I don't think those terms are accidental, I could be wrong.
Andrew Adams:
I would harbor to guess that you're correct. I and it is something that happens often many schools line up by rank. 

Jeremy Lesniak:
I think most do. 

Andrew Adams:
I personally am against it. 

Jeremy Lesniak:
Why?

Andrew Adams:
So I picked this up actually this is not just off my own dome actually just come stems from a discussion I had with Ian Abernathy on his thoughts on lining up in his school they don't line up by rank, and his thought process is something that I have gotten to think about quite a bit. If I'm a white belt, where am I lining up next to? Other white belts and if I'm in a really big class, and we're doing kihon and doing basics up and down the floor, who do I get to see all the people around me, there are other white belts. 

I, as an instructor would rather my white belts be looking at the brown belts are the black both the more higher rank students. So by interspersing or mean, and not even specifically you go there and you go there but just by letting people line up wherever they get an opportunity to see other people as they were training and working out. 

And what does it serve, what is the purpose, you know, this is the whole thing to me with all of these etiquette things and as this will not come as a surprise to any of our listeners. I have a list but of all the ones on my list, like there are some that I think are good and serve some purposes. But what purpose does lining up by rank, serve that will be my question.

Jeremy Lesniak:
What was conveyed to me early on was a different way of getting to the same thing that you're talking about making sure that the people of lower rank have someone to look to. Now, it may not always work out, especially if you have very big classes, But if I'm in a class of 20 people, the person in front of me in line knows more than I do. If there's a I'm in a class of 100 that may not be true. If I'm in a class of 12, and I'm in the back, that's all but guaranteed right just based on 12:18 what’s that?
Andrew Adams:
What if you're in one line. There's nobody in front of you or nobody behind you? 

Jeremy Lesniak:
That would be a weirdly laid out, weirdly laid out room. Yeah, I've seen it. When it comes to, now are we talking about just lining up for the formality of entering and exiting class, or are we talking about lining up for basics keel. 

Andrew Adams:
Well, I mean I would say as a general rule, they tend to be the same. You know they line up for the beginning of class, they line up to bow in, and then you, whether you were kneeling or not but you, then you start doing class, but you're still standing next to the people you started class 13:04 
Jeremy Lesniak:
When I think about it all my personal experiences with this. The only times where there has been a single line of people. It has been a very small class. And thus, it doesn't matter what the arrangement is, you know if there are, select the Taekwondo School I attend except in rare instances, our lines are four wide. 

So if we have 2, 3, 4 people, it really doesn't matter how you arranged that order. You're going to have the same problem if you have 12 people, you know you've got three lines, and the people in the back are going to be able to see a little bit about what's going on in front. I think this comes down to what is the intent, is the intent to showcase senior students, there's a plus and a minus a pro and a con to that, is the intent to give newer students the ability to kind of hide and struggle through things without feeling embarrassed as they might be in the front of the line with everybody watching them, I can see a pro and a con, there is the intent that the instructor only has to deal with the most senior students and can ignore the ones in the back, that's maybe not a good thing. 

People aren't gonna stick around. I have seen and even when I teach, especially if I'm teaching forms, right, like if you think about doing forms. They generally move in multiple directions, even if you're talking about, you know on the karate side if you're talking about the hunchy or techie, you're still moving in two directions, really kind of three you have three directions you have to care about. 

So I'll rearrange people and I usually put if there's someone who's trying to learn the forum are really struggling through I'll put them in the middle. And I'll put the highest ranks and, you know, the four corners, and they always have somebody to watch. Right so rearranging and I think there's nothing wrong with that. I do you like lining up in some kind of order, because I think well hold on let me take a step back, because I'm usually the one in the front spot. So let me try to unpack, you know, try to separate my feelings for that, how do I feel when I'm not the person the front sort of I'm visiting the school or something. 

I think that there is, depending on the other aspects of the culture of that school. I think as a general rule, you are going to see the people in the front of the room, show up more consistently. They're going to be more serious about their training, etc. And I think that seeing those people doing those things consistently being in the same spots. Could be, not necessarily as but could be positive messaging to people who are newer as they start to associate behavior with results.
Andrew Adams:
I get that. I can see that.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Like it's not the only way to look at it though, for sure.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah, no, absolutely. Yeah, for sure. How about your belt not touching the floor? There are some schools where it is incredibly disrespectful to take your belt and haven't touched the floor unless you're wearing it. And I grew up in one of those as well. I'm not in one currently, but that is an etiquette piece in many schools.
Jeremy Lesniak:
So I thought that was universal, because my first few schools were Karate schools. And then I started in Taekwondo and it was not the case there. Now I'm not, I can't say for certain that no taekwondo schools have this as a cultural aspect, as a rule of thumb, 

Andrew Adams:
Some definitely do. 

Jeremy Lesniak:
So that that's helpful for me to know. But it really threw me because it forced me to take something, you know, kind of in the same vein that we're doing with this episode, it forced me to take a big step back and go, well, the way I do it isn't the only way to do it, and things that not only were neutral, but were important, are of non-importance in this environment. And I found that really powerful because, yeah, growing up, if I had taken my belt and there's even an instance that I can remember specifically where I kind of cast my belt aside, I was a kid and I was being petulant. And I was scolded, big time in front of everyone. And then I step into this taekwondo school and watch a belt fall off a kid and the instructor takes it and just tosses it to the side, so they don't trip on it was like, what just happened? 

Because we do have this paradox of ranking of belts that a belt is not a big deal, it's just a symbol, but it is also a symbol of your time and dedication, and we get this, at least in Japanese Okinawan martial arts from my vantage, we get this conflict, of what a belt is.

And I don't see that as strongly in other martial arts, you know, in the same way. But I also I trained at a Kempo school where there was a formal process for putting on your belt as an individual, who would go off, you go in the corner you would turn away from the center of the world, you would tie your belt off on one knee, there were things that you were expected to contemplate while doing so. And it was really powerful.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah, this isn't one that I have strong feelings on one way or the other. I've been in both schools, I remember the school that I'm training in now. It had never come up, because you know I get to the school, I've just put on my belt, I mean, it's not something that we often take and just put on the ground, but at our testing's, when someone gets their next rank, the old belt just taken off and thrown over the left shoulder. And the first time it happened. Just like you, I was like, whoa, that surprised me greatly, but that's just the tradition in the school and that's just what they do.
Jeremy Lesniak:
What's 19:29 on your list?

Andrew Adams:
So, some other ones that are maybe slightly less known. If you are out, whether maybe you're in your dojo having some sort of get together, or maybe now, because a lot of people are practicing outside but as the weather gets nicer. Maybe you're getting together and you're having a meal, and that Sensei is at, and you're not allowed to eat or drink until Sensei does first.
Jeremy Lesniak:
See this is one that I don't know where I picked this up because I don't just do this in martial arts circles. I do this everywhere if I'm with a group of people, and there is an obvious figurehead, like if I'm at someone's home. I will defer to the people who live there. I'm not going to touch my food until they do. If I'm at let's say a big Thanksgiving dinner and someone's sitting at the head of the table. I'm gonna watch for that person to start eating before I eat. I don't eat at a restaurant, if, you know, I don't start eating if unless the other people can also get their food right like that's just something I don't think that's a martial arts thing exclusively I think that is a generalized respects thing it might even be more of a western culture thing for all I know.

Andrew Adams:
It might be, it's not something I'm aware of being as an Eastern culture tradition, and listeners correct us if we're wrong. But it's not something that I've heard of, but but this is one that I have heard like, don't you don't touch your food until Sensei does.
Jeremy Lesniak:
If you look at like animal training, if you look at any the basic rules on training a dog. You eat before the dog. If you look at wild animals, the alpha eats first, right, this is something that I think is pretty well ingrained in social circles, social culture. 

Andrew Adams:
Yep, my issue, I don't say issue with it. The thing that I often think about with some of these etiquette things is, I am not a fan of any etiquette that places the Sensei, or instructor on a pedestal and makes them better than just a person.

Jeremy Lesniak:
I will agree. There is 21:53 when I'm excited.

Andrew Adams:
And you know you mentioning when training animals. The animals don't eat until we do because we're the alpha because we're better than them. That's the biggest thing, you know, no offense to any instructor I've ever trained with, they're not better than me, their martial arts might be better than me, but as a person, they're not better than me, they're just a person, and everyone has flaws and I don't place my instructors on a pedestal and anything that tries to subjugate the students to the instructor is can be very harmful.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And we should probably take this subject and make a note and unpack it on another episode, because there's a, we could go pretty deep on this and I don't want to burn all of our time on this but yes there is a line and it can be blurry at times between being respectful to an instructor, outside of the context of martial arts, and being subjugated.
Andrew Adams:
Absolutely. And I think a lot of it has to do with mindset, like you're sitting down and not eating until the host does like that's a respect thing and that's can be very different, as long as you in your head are thinking of it as a respect thing. I think, cleaning the Dojo is another one you know in Okinawan and Japanese dojos it's usually called 23:20, which I believe literally means mindful cleaning. 

And, you know, as long as you are helping clean the dojo after class, and, you know, the way it was intended is mindful cleaning, you're cleaning the dojo and thinking about what you trained in during the day, you know, during class and you're using that as an opportunity to reflect and whatnot, and it's not used as a, the instructor going, I get free labor out of this awesome that's great you know like, I think a lot of it has to do with mindset.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And there also, there's a difference between, you know, if I go out to eat with a group of martial artists, after a big testing, versus I go out to eat with a mixed group of people and there happens to be a couple senior martial arts students in that mix.

If we go out to eat after testing, I consider that kind of an extension of martial arts because it's a group of martial artists we were just together for martial arts. We are inevitably going to be talking about what we just did at the competition or at the testing. And so I think martial arts rules are, at least vaguely applicable in that case.

I think it makes sense because everyone knows how to operate in that case. And I think that's really where etiquette comes from, right, it's a code of conduct it's knowing how and where and when and why. Because if you don't have those things, it becomes a lot more difficult to get things done. 

If half the class lines up and the other half is in a circle becomes difficult to teach to them. So when I go out with a mixed group of martial artists and non-martial artists, I'm going to default to non-martial arts rules, because the non-martial artists don't notice all the martial arts rules so we're going to follow general societal convention. And I think that makes sense. 

Here's an example has nothing to do with martial arts. There was a summer where my sixth grade teacher, I think it was after sixth or seventh grade, I became friends with his son. And I would hang out with his son. And he would try to get me to call him by his first name. And that was a struggle for me not, not because it was a respect thing, and he no call me Brian, it's fine, we're not we're not in school. I spent a year calling you by your last name. It's hard for me to switch that on and off. But he gave me permission and most of the martial arts instructors I've had outside of training have told me, call me by my first name, and I've struggled with that. And so instead, in mixed company I just don't refer to them by name at all. You know it's not it's not that I'm being overly formal it's just that it's weird coming out that way. 

Andrew Adams:
Interesting. Here's another one that may or may not have been heard. Never handing money directly to the instructor.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah, that's a new one to me.
Andrew Adams:
You know, even going so far as if on a testing day and everyone that you know is paying for their testing. If your school does that you would never hand the direct the money directly to the instructor, either the instructor will have someone that will collect it for you, or when you walk up, you will place it on the table, but you're not allowed to directly hand it to them,
Jeremy Lesniak:
What is this come from? Do you know?

Andrew Adams:
I don't, it's not one that I understand a reason or rationale for.
Jeremy Lesniak:
The best guess I have is that historically, a lot of cultures have seen money in the exchange of money as a necessary but dirty occurrence.
Andrew Adams:
And that very well could be, I don't know that it's one that really is critical to follow now. I don't see a place for it. I also don't see it as a harmful etiquette piece; it's just a kind of a strange chore.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Sure, I agree.
Andrew Adams:
In a lot of schools, they'll have in Japanese, it would be the show man or the main central focus point of the room, and in some schools, only certain students are allowed to clean that. Have you heard that?

Jeremy Lesniak:
I have not, there's a segmentation there that I'm unfamiliar with. I think in every school I've been in the only restrictions based on rank had to do with things like uniform or curriculum.
Andrew Adams:
In some Japanese schools, 28:06 happens after class, cleaning, but there are certain things that can only be cleaned by your 28:13 or black belts, and the showman is typically one, the 28:18 the main central piece of top is often only allowed to be cleaned by the Sensei provide the instructor.

Jeremy Lesniak:
Can you give any context to that? Do you have any explanation as to why that is?
Andrew Adams:
I don't, and it's not one that I necessarily agree with because again it's placing certain students above others. In a way that doesn't make sense to me like in a training purpose. Yes, it makes sense that black belts will do certain things first, or like another one on my list is, if I as a black belt, am doing a technique with a brown belt in our school, the higher rank student always gets to practice the technique first. And to me, I understand that to a certain degree because the lower rank student gets to see the higher ranks it is. So that's makes sense to me. But in terms of a cleaning thing, I mean, my guess is that the showman, this isn't something I agree with but I'm guessing it's something to the degree of you are not a black belt yet, so you're not worthy to touch this thing.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Is that the place in the front of the room where a lot of schools will place a photo?
Andrew Adams:
Yes, exactly. 

Jeremy Lesniak:
So I could imagine that a newer student may not have the context for the arts to clean that space with the full ability to be reverent and thankful to that person.
Andrew Adams:
Perhaps, that might be. 

Jeremy Lesniak:
So, rather than a restriction that seems more like maybe it grew out of or at least should be an opportunity.

Andrew Adams:
In your writing, that could be.

Jeremy Lesniak:
That's a guess, that's it. Yes, and of course you know people are listening and they're like, oh my god you guys are killing this and not in a good way, you're ruining this, you are so wrong in every way. We want to hear it, right, what was the intent of these episodes? To get you to think to open up conversation to have dialogue. You know and I think if you go back and we should maybe one more, you got more?
Andrew Adams:
Oh yeah, I've got a couple more. 

Jeremy Lesniak:
We'll get through those, but the thing that I want to point out is that we are in all of these I think we're making a division between rules that are meant to exclude. For the purposes of subjugation, or to elevate someone's status are rules that neither of us are going to condone versus rules that lead to safety, or progress and the betterment of training, so long as they don't violate the first one. 31:30 

Andrew Adams:
Yeah, I mean I think if anything like, anything that reinforces, like a dominator hierarchy like someone is, that's the stuff that we're not going to be building be good with which. And again, a lot of that depends on the rationale behind it was to get on my list, one on my list is not training with another instructor, or not even attending tournaments, without asking your instructor first, which would include even going to a seminar, like, I'm not allowed to go to a seminar, unless I asked my instructor first.
Jeremy Lesniak:
So this one is mixed for me. This is one of those where, I think, out of respect to my instructor. I'm going to ask or at least notify, but I also wouldn't expect that instructor to say yes.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah, and I think again it depends on what the mindset is like, I think, if I am going to go to a tournament, and I'm going to wear my school uniform at that tournament I'm representing the school. I think the instructor has a right to know that that's going to be the case. And same if I'm going to be going to train somewhere, whether it's at a seminar or at another school. The problem is often instructors see that as this, my student wants to go train with that other instructor so they're going to leave me. I'm going to say no so that they don't leave me.

Jeremy Lesniak:
And this is, if anybody out there, watches or listens to first cop the morning show that I do. Quite often, everything boils down to, with that we talked about on that show love versus fear as motivation. You know, if the reasoning for the instructor to say yes or no to certain things is because they are fearful, they are probably not beneficial, right. Fear does not create progress, fear creates restriction. Love leads to progress, if you love your students, you will support them. Now there's a big difference between, hey, I've been training for 8, 10, 12 years in Goju, and I want to go do Jiu Jitsu versus I've been training for two weeks in 33:47 and I also simultaneously want to train in 33:50.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah, absolutely.
Jeremy Lesniak:
There's good for people who may not be Japanese stylists, I'm talking about two very different arts versus two that are far more similar, and one giving the ability to be more diversified whereas if you are new in your cross training and two similar things, it is likely to be difficult to separate one versus the other and progress.
Andrew Adams:
Which is why asking your instructor can lead to a good teaching moment to discuss what you're going to go learn at this seminar, or wherever, so again it's all about mindset and what the rationale behind it. The only other one I thought we might, that might be fun discussing is, well actually to one never correcting an upper ranked student. I don't know if you've ever heard this, if you see, like if you are a Greenbelt kind of mid rank style and you see a brown belt, making doing something that you know, 100% is wrong. You are not allowed to tell them that they are doing it wrong; you're not allowed to correct.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And I think that is fair because quite often as, by definition, if you are a lower ranked student, you have less experience, less context, less understanding, your 100% certainty could still be wrong. And what if you find out hey, there's another way of doing this that I don't get exposed to we're told that rank, and you're absolutely both right. So how do I suggest handling that, make a note of it. And after class, you go and speak to someone, probably not that person, but someone of equal or higher rank and say, hey, I saw this. Am I doing it wrong? If you own it, if you make it about you and your desire to be better and progress. It is okay to ask that question just not necessarily in that moment.
Andrew Adams:
Well and I think it's a matter of it being a question, rather than a statement, I actually would have no problem if I were the under student, going to the person doing it differently that I think is doing it wrong. I have no problem with that student doing that as long as they approach it in terms of, you know, wow, I saw you do this move like this. But since they showed me doing it like this, and I don't understand. Am I doing it wrong but I think  that’s fine. That student that you approached may also be maybe doing it wrong but you at least approached it from a question as opposed to a 36:28.
Jeremy Lesniak:
There's a difference between the you as a multiyear multi-style, multi-don Black Belt rank, approaching someone who is senior to you, versus a green belt approaching a brown belt, in the original example, because you're going to be able to have a more nuanced conversation, even in asking the question. 

Andrew Adams:
Yeah, I understand, but even with I'm even if I were a green belt. I think it would be okay. And what if your instructor does it a different way, I mean how do you, who do you then go to? 37:02 
Jeremy Lesniak:
That's why I suggest a third party, because I think you could have a more honest conversation because there are schools, I've trained in where instructor teaches things in different ways to different people at different times. I've trained in schools where the instructor has multiple arts in their background, and sometimes they forget what they're teaching or maybe they have some kind of chronic injury that impacts the way they teach things. 

I've had instructors who, for other reasons beyond chronic injury, just aren't capable of doing things the quote unquote right way. So what they will say, what they will do will be slightly different cuz they want you to do it the right way, or the curriculum, even though they are not permitted to. It usually happens with more complicated kicking techniques.
But the third party is interesting to me because quite often especially so in most schools I've been in there has been that at least one really friendly, really approachable, black belt who is not the instructor, and you can go to them and say, hey, I saw Tom or Sue, doing this and I thought it was this. What's up? And by going to that person, one of the few things happens. Okay, so yeah, you read Thomas Wright, you haven't learned this yet, you know, Sue, does it this way because of something going on with her, her hip or, you know, I've been wondering about that myself, let me fall on the sword, and I'll go talk to the instructor or let me go talk to Tom and Sue and create one more, there's actually there could be a lot of benefit for multiple people beyond you, in raising the question.

And the problem with going to someone who is a brown belt when you're a green belt is that that brown belt is probably not confident enough in their abilities yet to be willing to be vulnerable and say, you know what, maybe I'm doing it wrong. And that's the difference you know that I'm pointing out with you as someone who's been training a while you're willing to be vulnerable and say you know what, hey, I was wrong. I've been doing wrong for a while.
We most of us who've been training for a while have had at least one thing, where we've looked back and gone, I've been doing it wrong this whole time.
Man, and you have to have a level of training and confidence in your skill and who you are as a person right there's an ego suspension, to be able to open up to that. And I think it is better, right, so we're talking about these things in a very open way. And I think being open about etiquette if you're an instructor schooler, and not just explaining, we bow when we line up. Why, make sure once you explain the why, what is the why behind these rules of etiquette, because that leads to the culture that you want. If you just put in place the regulations, it may or may not lead to the culture but if you give people the reason. Okay, I want you to go clean. I want you to clean and I want you to reflect on what you did at class today while you're cleaning, those are two very different experiences that absolutely two very different result and cultures within the school. 

Andrew Adams:
Yep, I think the way we just really quickly finishing up on the correcting students thing. Etiquette wise, coming at it from a question, is a perfect example. My instructor has been teaching 40:33 or 40:35 on Zoom, and for the students that are at home. And so, because he's helping the students out he's looking at the camera. And so, he will start instead of going to the right, he'll start going to the left to mirror so that so that to mirror the students right so that he can. So the students at home go the correct way, right, and I find she is one of those few 41:00 that you are, you can do either way it's the same kata really, you can do it on both sides, it's not, you know, doing another kata on the exact opposite side can be a little more difficult at times. 

So, he has gotten used to starting to the left. He was doing an in person class starting to do it to the left because that's what he's been practicing for the Zoom students. And if a student were to say, Sensei, you're doing it wrong, it goes to the right, remember, that would be very bad etiquette for supposed to say, I'm sorry, I thought that this went to the right, and you're going to the left, I just want to make sure I have it correct. That is way more appropriate etiquette wise, yep to pose it as a question, not as a 41:45.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And not as a good reason to circle back or having people line up by rank, because, okay, what are the people immediately in my training context doing. Oh, they're all going to the right, we're all going to the left. Okay, I'm probably wrong.
Andrew Adams:
And the last one that I thought we could discuss was not wearing your GI or your belt outside in public. Some schools don't have an issue. Some schools do. What's the rationale behind it?

Jeremy Lesniak:
So there are two different situations, we're talking about we're talking about putting it on, and traveling to and from training versus putting it on, and wearing it like a costume. Okay. There is the rare third exception where 16 year old Jeremy gets really excited because he is gifted a blue Gi. When he earns his black, and really likes the pants despite them not having pockets a wears it to school a couple times, just the pants. I don't think we have to spend much time on the third one. Halloween costume, etc. Anything that suggests, the uniform, whatever that is, that could be your T-shirt and shorts if there is official designated t shirt and shorts in the school, anything that is the official training, apparel, being used in something that is not training, I think, is disrespectful to you as the student. I don't think it's necessarily disrespectful to anyone else.

But for me when I put on gi 43:37 those two style of uniform that I wear. It helps me get in the right mindset for training. If I was to wear those things elsewhere. It would dilute that impact. 

Andrew Adams:
Yeah, I would agree. Some schools are okay with you wearing your GI or 44:00 from your house to the trading Hall. And then when you get to the hall, you're allowed to put on your belt, some schools do not allow you to wear your belt, outside of the training hall.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And that's more what I am used to seeing. I use praying that you don't put the belt on until you get into the environment that you're going to train and I'm sure there are schools out there that don't want you to wear anything outside, in which case, you better have a bunch of training, changing rooms. 

And I can see value to all the above. Right, if you've got kids, and you live in New England and it's mud season, which for those of you who don't live in areas that have mud season it literally it's like a fifth season. It is dirty and kids will show up in class with mud splatters from ankle to neck up the back of their uniform, because they stepped in a puddle because their kids. Well, if they're not wearing their uniform to class and you're changing when they're there, it's less likely to happen but then you've got a whole other issue of coordinating that. 

Andrew Adams:
But that those are the last of the things on my list, pretty much.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And so again, those seem to sum up, or to fall into that, that dichotomy of. Is it about respect and benefit of training, or is it about subjugation and hierarchy and ego.
Andrew Adams:
Which in a lot of cases has to do about it. 

Jeremy Lesniak:
Exactly and again just to reiterate, I'm sure you're on board with me, I think you already said you work. If you are conveying rules of etiquette, explain the why, if you don't know the why, figure it out. 

If you can, if I come up to you if I'm a student and I say, instructor, why do we do this, and you don't have an answer beyond. Well, it's what we've always done. I would urge you that the next words out of your mouth be. 

But let me figure it out, and get back to you I haven't thought about it that way. It's just what I've always done, because the why matters. 

Andrew Adams:
Yep, I would agree. 

Jeremy Lesniak:
We talked about, you know, why in terms of, why do we do these movements in this way, why do we do this forum, what is the application, why matters. Find the why. 

Andrew Adams:
Yep, absolutely. 

Jeremy Lesniak:
Okay. All right, well, thanks everybody for listening or watching yes there is a video episode or video version of this episode and thanks Andrew, this is a good topic. I'm glad we did this one.

If you want to go deeper, you know, maybe get some transcripts or check out Episode 131 the original etiquette episode that I did go to whistlekickmartialartsradio.com. You can find that everything else that we do when we do two shows every week. And if you're down support us and all of our work, you've got some options you can leave a review, buy a book on Amazon or help out with the Patreon patreon.com/whistlekick, and if you're looking for the ideal strength and conditioning program for martial artists, I made it, you can get it at whistlekick.com use the code podcast 15 to get 15% off that program or anything else we make. And if you have suggestions, let's hear from our social media is at whistle kick in my emails, jeremy@whistlekick.com. Until next time, train hard, smile, and have a great day.