Episode 594 - Dr. Jean Kanokogi
Dr. Jean Kanokogi
Dr. Jean Kanokoji is a Martial Arts Practitioner, Instructor, and Special Agent for the US Government.
The sport, the philosophy, the kindness, the fact that I’m bowing to somebody who’s about to kick my butt or I’m about to choke them out. I'm respecting and thanking them through my bow to allow me to be a better Judoka.
Dr. Jean Kanokogi - Episode 594
When Martial Arts is in your blood, you become more natural to it. Dr. Jean Kanokogi was born on the mat, literally and figuratively. Dr. Kanokogi’s parents, Ryohei and Rusty, were both pillars of Judo not only in the US but in international competitions. Dr. Jean Kanokogi is a Special Agent for the US Government, and she teaches martial arts to law enforcers. In this episode, which is nothing short of awesome, Dr. Kanokogi talks about her journey to the martial arts as well as her parents’ legacy for Judo.
Show Notes
In this episode, we mentioned Ronda Rousey, Kayla Harrison, and Jimmy Pedro
To know more about Rusty Kanokogi’s, Dr. Jean Kanokogi’s mother, contributions to Judo, visit www.rustykanokogi.com
Get Dr. Kanokogi’s book,
Dr. Jean Kanokogi
Show Transcript
You can read the transcript below.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Welcome! This is whistle kick martial arts radio episode 594 with today's guest, Dr. Jean Kanokogi. I'm Jeremy Lesniak, host for the show and founder here at whistle kick where everything we do is in support of the traditional martial arts. If you want to see everything we do. Visit whitstlekick.com, it's our online home. It's a place to find our store and that's one of the ways that we found all the things that we do we give you for free. So if you want to support us if you want to make a purchase at the store maybe buy a uniform or some gear or book or a shirt you know a bunch of stuff over there, training programs. He's got a podcast 15, that's gonna get you 15% off, and it lets us know that, hey, you liked the show and you're willing to help us out. Now, the show itself has its own website whitstlekickmartialarts.com. You'll see new episodes of this show, twice a week. And why do we do what we do with this show. Well, it's to connect and educate and entertain the traditional martial artists of the world. If you want to support that work, there are plenty of ways you can help you could make a purchase, like I said, but you could also share an episode, follow us on social media, you could tell a friend you could pick up a book on Amazon leave a review or support our patreon.com/whistlekick, you can support us monthly with as little as $2, and the more you spend, the more exclusive content we're going to throw your way. I love all of our guests, I really do, and I love every episode it's like kids, like the way I hear people talk about kids they love them all, but once in a while, we have an episode pop up. That just makes me go, whoa. And this was a whoa episode. It was funny, it was poignant, it was powerful, and it was about, not only our guest, but several other people around the guest, we talk about people who have been on the show, we talked about people that we've talked about on the show we talked about people that you have heard of, and others that you haven't and others that you maybe didn't realize had any connection to martial arts.
It's an awesome story and why am I being so vague because if I tell you anymore it's going to ruin the surprises that unfold as we have this conversation. So instead of ruining surprises I just rather let it happen. So, here goes with the show. Hey Dr. Jean, welcome to whistle kick martial arts radio.
Jean Kanokogi:
Hi there.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I appreciate you doing this, thanks for coming on the show.
Jean Kanokogi:
Well thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here.
Jeremy Lesniak:
You know, audience, we were just talking and you know I'm not going to, we're not going to go into the stuff that we talked about because one of the things that I get to do as host of the show, you know, this is there isn't a lot that I get to say, oh this is mine but you know that the conversations with the guest before and after those are mine, once in a while something that happened after we close the show we will edit it. Back in, but the hour before the stuff that we just shared that you shared with me before, kind of big stuff, kind of heavy stuff and really makes me excited for what we're going to get into because if you're able to and willing share that stuff after having talked to me for 120 seconds. Where are we going to be in a half hour?
Jean Kanokogi:
Yeah, I'm willing to share whatever that we're interested in talking about because really, this is a story about my life is really the story of a martial artist and the crossovers, that happen through life with myself with other martial artists and getting through some adversities in life as well.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And one of the things I love about our format is that you can listen just about any episode and you can identify, you know, here's some things that are different about that individual story versus my own, but here are a lot of things that I can relate to, so much in common as martial arts and his people, and that seems to come through on the show.
Jean Kanokogi:
It does, you know, martial artists were a unique group because it doesn't matter what style that you practice because it's fundamentally the foundations are common. The foundations and principles, all have some level of commonality or have been derived from ancestries, way before even we existed. So, that commonality really is the impetus to give us the potential to sit and have good conversations and kick back enjoy respect and learn from one another.
Jeremy Lesniak:
It is an incredible thing that we do, no matter whether you look at it from a comical perspective, I make my best friends by punching them in the face, or a more philosophical perspective, there's so many different ways to look at what we think and do in the context of this wider world of martial arts. Now you, you're a Judoka.
Jean Kanokogi:
I am.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And how do you get started? How did you know, a passionate polling but it's not, at least in the US, it's not the biggest or even close to the biggest contingent of martial arts practitioners.
Jean Kanokogi:
It isn't, but yet. Judo seems to be my second family Judo people are my second family and, you know, circling back to you saying, just some oddities or phrases that probably non-martial art artists would be able to fully embrace. I grew up telling everybody that my mother chokes me and I was happy about it I was like yeah my mother choked me about four times yesterday my necks a little sore. So, and that goes to your question on how I started in judo. I was literally or just about born on the mat. My mom was in the middle of teaching a judo class at probably the prospect YMCA, and she was pregnant with me, her student was one of her students was also her physician, and it's, they said okay well it's time to go to the hospital.
So they go over to Methodist Hospital in Brooklyn, and now she's waiting the contractions are happening and in between contractions her student, Dr. Bauer Sachs had to test for his kata, and he had to go for his forms. So his form practice understand you know all of the different throws, and what she did is in between contractions, was go over his kata, and they were in the delivery waiting area practicing gripping each other doing the steps. I don't know if he threw her while you know and induce labor by throwing her a few times, maybe that's how I came out so I almost got born on the mat but they made it to the hospital in time. And so I was born to two Sensei, I was born to Rusticana Kogi and 07:28 Kana Kogi, two magnificent Judo Sensei, Rusty my mother in, we'll talk about her story in a little bit, was the mother of women's Judo, who got women's Judo into the Olympic Games.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I was literally biting my hand as you're talking through that story. The idea of martial artists transitioning martial arts practice into a delivery room, it makes sense, but I can only imagine I would love to have been a fly on the wall to watch the reactions of the doctors and nurses around, because who does that, especially 08:06
Jean Kanokogi:
Especially in the late 60s, a doctor gripping his patient and tossing her in the air while she's in labor or holding her in in a contact form or who knows if he had to simulate an arm lock, could you only imagine the looks of the hospital staff of what is this position doing to his patient, or his patient my mother to trucking him up in the air, and going for a throw.
Jeremy Lesniak:
This movie needs to happen, just so we can see this scene.
Jean Kanokogi:
100%, I believe it. There's plenty of material that the world does need to see from this story.
Jeremy Lesniak:
So that's quite the Genesis, you know, almost literally born on the mat. And I would imagine, given that upbringing, or rather that that origin. Whether or not you had a choice for Judo, you probably just kind of fell into it before you were even aware of the option.
Jean Kanokogi:
Yes.
Jeremy Lesniak:
It just, if they're in training you're standing there in a crib on the side whatever it was and just start mimicking.
Jean Kanokogi:
100% you know, children are sponges and they learn they imitate, they really are the best absorption of knowledge, because I didn't even realize now, all these years later I had no idea how much I really learned how much I remember how much I absorbed. So as a child watching going to my parents teaching their Judo classes, I was off to the side rolling around on the mat and I had tons of different babysitters because everybody that were the judo students were part of my Judo family, so aunts and uncles up the wazoo, that were the judo students and we became one big Judo family.
Subsequently, the name of our dojo was Kyushu dojo, Kyushu is a southern islands in Japan, where my dad is from, and just going off a little bit on a tangent, my mother met my father in Japan, while she was training in judo, and my father is of samurai lineage.
So, all the way in southern Japan, matter of fact, there's a castle. I think was in the 14 or 1500s, that was called Kanokogi castle, and now it's since been named Kumamoto castle. There was also a cave in Kumamoto where Miyamoto Musashi, wrote the Book of Five Rings. But going back to me rolling polling on the mat…
Jeremy Lesniak:
Not that you were born to any kind of incredible legacy to hold up for anything, man that's, those are some big shoes to fill.
Jean Kanokogi:
Really, you know, gigantic shoes and it's funny because my mom had big feet. My father always had to point out that she had big feet like when you got hit by her foot for foot sweep, you felt like you were you were hit by a truck. It was that, and when she was training in Japan, they were amazed, you know five foot nine woman with ties 11 Tripoli's gigantic feats, on the mat, they didn't know what to do with her. So I do have, I did have some big shoes to fill. But what was really great about it, even though both of my parents were Sensei. They let me find my way, whether it be in Judo or any other sports, so they never really pushed Judo but they welcomed me into judo.
Jeremy Lesniak:
What's the difference?
Jean Kanokogi:
Welcoming me was asking if I'd like to go to judo, if I'd like to practice or if I'd like to compete or just practice for fun or exercise or welcoming me to just do the exercise before I go off and play softball or volleyball, or whatever else I wanted. The other sports I did play I played softball, and I made it pretty far in that sport, and my parents were very supportive and they went to my softball games. But then as I started progressing in Judo and started competing in winning Junior nationals and junior tournament's. I was at a crossroads. Do I follow my Judo career? Do I follow my softball endeavors? So we came to an agreement that my softball tournament typically were between three and 6pm. And then I would have judo from seven to 10pm. So I was very athletic, needless to say growing up.
And eventually I took the judo career Judo path, because I thoroughly enjoyed the sport, the philosophy, the kindness, the fact that I'm bowing to somebody was about to kick my butt, or I'm about to choke them out, but I'm respecting them and thanking them through my bow to allow me to be a better Judoka.
Jeremy Lesniak:
It's pretty powerful.
Jean Kanokogi:
It is and the philosophies a mutual benefit for both, and doing things with the least amount of resistance. It's just so cooperative, although it's extremely combative as well, I mean it's, I've had some matches where I was choked and I literally turned blue. And, but it showed me I can get up and fight. And that's something that my mom would tell me all the time no matter what if I was thrown. It doesn't matter, get up and fight. And that and that carries over and matter of fact, that's the name of the book that I just wrote called get up and fight, the chronicles, and demonstrates the memoir of rusty and our entire family and how she fought to not take no and how she fought against and broke the glass ceilings and barriers to be able to open up the world of judo for women.
Jeremy Lesniak:
We'll get into in just a moment, but before we do I want to unpack your childhood, a little bit more, because you're talking about two. Well, you talked about your mother's high level of accomplishment and I know we're going to go even further there with judo. And my suspicion if she chose to be with your father when she was in Japan training he likely is was no slouch on the mat himself.
Jean Kanokogi:
No, he wasn't and they had two very distinct styles. And I was lucky enough to inherit, naturally inherit both of their styles I don't know, maybe it is genetic. But then, you know maybe it's because this is what they wanted to give to me as a gift as I was coming up in judo.
So my father being a little bit smaller, not that much smaller but a little bit smaller, he had these this precision technique, they call it Koji Garry which is an inner sweep of the leg and my mother's throw was this grand. It was called 15:25 and this grand rear leg sweeping technique where you fly through the air and land on the other person. So the combination of inheriting both of those types of styles within Judo was truly a gift, and it did me well as I subsequently became a member of the US judo team. I competed, now of course nationally and regionally but also internationally, and was afforded to compete against people who went on to be Olympians and went on to be gold medalists, and I trained with the best of the best, and these people were actually also pioneers of women's judo because they were competing even before, judo, was in the Olympics.
Jeremy Lesniak:
It's a lot to carry. We seem to have this recurring theme of big shoes and heavy weights on shoulders. Were you aware of the uphill battle for Judo and specifically for women's judo?
Jean Kanokogi:
I was, you know, when I was a kid it was never just a normal, you know, go outside and play with your friends childhood because my mom was constantly on the phone and writing letters and yelling at people. But, and I didn't completely understand until I got a little bit older and she sat me down and she talked to me and she said, you know, prepare yourself because in life, at least in this portion of it, there are going to be times where people are going to discriminate against you, and whether it be for race or merely the fact that you because you're a girl or because you're becoming a woman, and it's not personal. It's their problem. So sometimes you will have to make it your problem and fight that discrimination and only ask for what is fair.
So that that's how she led me in that heaviness of trying to fill shoes. So, just to lighten it a little bit and you know there are a lot of anecdotal phonies. I don't know if you remember the commercial but years ago I'd say in the 80s, a karate gentleman came out and kick the daylights out of Samsonite luggage and the title of it was kind of Kogi versus Samsonite. So that's my dad's commercial so not only was my dad a Judo expert. He was a Karate expert, and he filmed that commercial that to this day everybody still remembers.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Oh, that's really cool, I'm going to try to find that on YouTube, see if we can link it.
Jean Kanokogi:
Oh absolutely, it's all over YouTube it's still a very popular part of viewing when people look up Kanokogi that pops up as well. But you know, going, going back to my Judo career. It opened my eyes to a lot of international things I went to compete in Japan, for the first time and when I was in Japan earlier you had said, you know Judo is not as popular in the US as it is in other countries and by the way, you're absolutely right. I think there's like, there's millions of competitors and Judoka all over the world, except in the US.
So I go to Japan, and I was treated like a celebrity. Kids were asking for my autograph. I'm on the US team there, they're banging drums, they're coming over and they just want to say hello. It was amazing. And even in Europe they had the British Open we'd go to Crystal Palace every year and people just knew we were going to a Judo tournament. Here you know you wouldn't run around in a white robe, through the streets of New York, going to judo class or something they would just look at you like Halloween is not until October.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah, yes, we've had a number of guests on the show, who have been involved in judo, and they've spoken very openly, very passionately about the frustration, they have with the United States his place in the global Judo landscape. And this seeming this this frustration of Karate and Taekwondo being so strongly representative here in the US, and everything else buying for such a small percentage and in this this seeming weight. And yet, if you know your history of martial arts, in the United States, Judo really should be number one. You know if you think back to Teddy Roosevelt and his passion for judo and Jiu Jitsu, when he was in office.
Jean Kanokogi:
Absolutely. You know, it's funny because, as my mom was fighting for Title Nine, with the Women's Sports Foundation and alongside Billie Jean King, she had the opportunity to meet several politicians and one at the time was Hillary Clinton. Her first thing she asked Hillary was, where judo is, how come Judo is not in the White House and she explained about Teddy Roosevelt and his passion for Judo.
So, the question has been asked so maybe it's in the future. Judo, unfortunately, is extremely combative and it bewilders me because the MMA and the PFL that's so popular, so at first I thought well maybe because Judo so physically combative you can choke someone, you could arm lock someone, whereas some of the other styles might be prettier in the media. That's not the case any longer because people want to see the fighting.
So what else is it, and it really is bewildering, why it's not so popular, but I mean in the United States women's judo has come a very long way I do have to credit USA Judo now to, as opposed to who USA Judo was back then. Back when Rusty was fighting to get women's judo into the Olympics USA Judo was completely against her, and they even told her, well, one of our reasoning is well you know what if your lady parts get hurt. And, you know she retorted well, your man parts are on the outside our lady parts are on the inside. What's the problem?
Jeremy Lesniak:
I'm trying not to laugh because if I go it just I'm not gonna come back in a few minutes.
Jean Kanokogi:
22:02 Yes, it was the flawed argument, It was the good old boys networks that you know women want so should you be in the kitchen. So, you know, Rusty yeah, you know what I was happier with her out of the kitchen, I mean granted she made a couple of dishes but she was much better at being the mother of women's judo and my sensei and my mother then the Stouffer stovetops.
But one thing I have to tell you know going into food, Rusty did at one of our favorite pastimes was to go to Nathan's and grab a hot dog in Coney Island as a family we would go down to Nathan's, we'd walk around the boardwalk and Coney Island they would go play handball because they you know they had to use their hands and I'm thinking oh gosh, her hands are getting stronger and she's gonna choke me even more.
So we'd go for some hot dogs and less to get this great idea, any type of publicity she can get for women's judo. She would, so Nathan's has this little thing called the hot dog eating contest every July, she was able to get myself and another girl from the German Junior judo team entered in the contest figured we would get some publicity for women's judo. Well, so it is. I don't even know how proud I should be but I took second place in the Nathan's Hot Dog Eating Contest. But I have to tell you, the girl who took first place was my friend from Germany who never had a hot dog so too young judo for teenagers to first and second place in the Hot Dog Eating Contest back then. And coincidentally we both have PhDs, so Airgo hotdogs make you smart.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Apparently. Now, obvious follow up, how many hotdogs?
Jean Kanokogi:
I think it was nine for me and nine and a half for Birgit. At that time, you know, it wasn't a Kobayashi kind of swallow everything whole. And you had to do it I think in two minutes, including the bun, and you're only allowed one glass of seltzer.
Jeremy Lesniak:
It's still quite impressive. You know, what are they up to now like 50 60 minutes which is insane. And forget about that for a moment forget about what people are doing now, it's super insane even nine for a child who has no experience in competitive eating. That's quite impressive.
Jean Kanokogi:
Well she felt we were competitors, you know our Judo training prepared us to compete, any anywhere and do anything. Matter of fact, a few blocks from Nathan's now on West 17th and surf, right in front of the ball field, the street is co-named Rusty Ken Okogie way.
Jeremy Lesniak:
What a 24:49 so her impact wasn't just in this one angle it was in effect, it was a movement that it seems I'm struggling for the right word here, maybe you can help me out, but there's this this vibe I'm picking up on that she was a force of nature that you pretty much got with what she wanted or got out of the way because she was gonna roll over it.
Jean Kanokogi:
Absolutely. I remember being interviewed for a television show when I was a kid and I referred to her as the cinderblock, she'll move when she wants to move. She really was and you capture that Jeremy, a force and she's such a force that she's still today. Touching Lives empowering and inspiring people to get up and fight inspired me when I didn't think I had anything left inside, you know, circling back to my career, I didn't mention yet. I'm still active, I'm a federal agent, and I've been in law enforcement for 23 years. I grew up in Brooklyn, I'm also a fifth degree black belt in judo. One thing that really helped my get up and fight and because of my Judo career and because of Rusty's force of nature is I'm a 911 first responder, so I was on that pile, digging while he was still on fire. And that's when you just have to reach deep down inside when you feel like you've got nothing left. When you have no bit of energy, but for the right reason you have to keep going and has to keep working. So that's how the spillover truly happens. It also gives you the tools to be able to take pause and be confident in your skills. So when you're acting and when you're reacting and when you're doing your job in a law enforcement career. It gives you the skills that one split second skill of decision making of knowing what to do in a given situation. So this is a lot of how it crossed over. It was just it's an incredible force of nature that to every day Rusty inspires me to do something, and she was very selfless in the fact that she didn't do it for any type of personal gratification. She knew the right from the wrong, and she knew it was wrong to be discriminated against.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Did you ever feel like you were growing up under a shadow? It seems like with these larger than life events it could be hard to form your own identity. What was it like that?
Jean Kanokogi:
I definitely grew up in the shadows of Rusty. And it was difficult because having the name Kanokogi either you or Rusty's daughter or your 27:55 daughter, and the expectation in the judo world was very high for how you conducted yourself, how you competed, for how you acted and, you know, assuming that since I was Rusty's daughter I also had to be boisterous and a bulldozer in meetings and whatnot, but then assuming that, given that I was 28:24 daughter. They thought maybe I was quieter and stayed more in the background so I had to really find my own identity and in a careful balance. I'm the first one in my immediate family to go in a career in law enforcement, so I did find my way, because I was able to find a career where I can still help people, I can positively affect lives. And it wasn't only through sport and of course, you know, you do other activities as a law enforcement officer like you know you help with the Special Olympics and you help some of the inner life. One of the things I do is or I did is volunteer and help inner city youth in sports, Rusty was involved with the sports and arts for schools. So there's such a crossover to be able to help people. Now I volunteer as the Director of Mental Health and peer support for the Federal Law Enforcement Officers Association, and I've just recently undertaken a volunteer position with blue hearts for heroes, which helps law enforcement families with special needs children. So, the shoes I filled, and these, the identity that I formed. They took different directions but stayed along the same paths.
Jeremy Lesniak:
When I hear stories of people who grow up with powerful parents and I mean that word in every possible iteration, the response to the children. And you see this often with multi child families is either to embrace the power and charge forward and whether or not you're following in footsteps or finding your own identity to be very big that may be successful, it may be notoriety, it could be many things, or to be the opposite end of the spectrum and to be very quiet and withdrawn and identity becomes as you said. Rusty's daughter 30:31 his daughter, and to never find your own space and it's good to hear that you took that high bar, and said you know I'm not going to hang back I'm going to charge forward.
Jean Kanokogi:
Thank you, you know, Rusty did talk to me about some of the mistakes that she made in her youth and some of the poor choices that she made, but however those poor choices led her to become and develop the character that she was, and led her to change the lives of hundreds of 1000s of people, by what she did growing up, she grew up in a very tumultuous childhood. Her dad was an alcoholic gambler, her mom was constantly working in Coney Island and got her hand mangled and got hooked on the painkillers to offset the pain because there was no sick day there weren't any sick days back then. So she ran around the streets with no guidance. She had babysitters, which unfortunately they were members of this what they call the freak show back then, but that was the Pinhead sisters and Milo the mule Face Boy, which, that's when rusty started developing her character because she realized that even though these people looked different. They treated me with respect and love, and she felt like they were part of her family. And she started formulating her own values.
Rusty ran around and she was the leader of a female gang in Coney Island, so I know she didn't want and not a gang. What I think today we're thinking more like in the movie Greece. You know there was an incident where she was scheduled to have a schoolyard fight with another female gang and the other female gang showed up, her members did not. So Rusty took the brunt of it and then hunted down each one of her members, and made sure that they felt the same wrath, because she believed in fairness, she believed in accountability and doling out a beating teach one of her gang members who didn't show up. Well, that was accountability and fairness to her.
But you know she didn't want me to make the same mistake so you know I had a much better household her and my dad were best friends I mean aside from soul mates, they were just best friends and he was so supportive for her antics and her, you know, in the beginning, she had she said listen women's judo needs to be a, an Olympic sport. And how do we get there, and he supported her every step of the way, even when the other Japanese did not support him for supporting her. He showed me that you stand up for what you believe in, even if everybody else doesn't see it for what it is, of course now mindsets have changed. But, you know, Rusty the adversity that she suffered is in 1959, she competed in the YMCA championships as a villain for one of her teammates, because he was injured, and there were no women competing, so she had to fight a man she beat the man, fair and square and she beat him with a full point she slammed him, it was a brawl, the way she explained it well they took her medal away because she was a woman.
And because of that, that was the pivotal point where she decided that no woman will ever suffer such an indignity ever again. And she's like, not on my watch, and not for my daughter, not for my future. And so now, every little girl that has the opportunity to put on a Judo gi, and say, I want to be an Olympian that can happen because of Rusty.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Wow. And that's, I mean it's utterly amazing story and it predates, I've got my phone here and I'm quickly skimming I want to make sure that I have my dates, right. But the woman who ran the Boston Marathon as a man which if I'm doing my math right, your mother was 10 years earlier.
Jean Kanokogi:
I think so.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And, you know, all of the, we'll use a nice word, the hullabaloo about a woman running, you know, if we think about context. At that time, you know, physical contact, contact sports, especially between a man and a woman was a huge deal. That's still probably a bigger deal now than it should be but, you know, regardless if we think about the context. Did you have the opportunity to have a conversation with her about her mindset at that time? Did she know she was stepping into a minefield?
Jean Kanokogi:
She didn't. At first, she would, you know, she went there to support her team at the theoretical YMCA, because she knew the men were competing but she went there to support her team, and she brought her Judo gi with her because she brought her Judo gi everywhere just in case. And she availed herself to for what they call 35:55 and form practice a warm up, if you may, for the competition so when she was doing the warm up with the guys, she was thinking and she shared that she said, Well I wish women could compete this with, this is really neat. And when she had the opportunity to compete, then she was told, well just don't call attention to yourself just pull pulling even score. And then she's thinking well why should I do that I trained just the way the same guys train. And in her head, so she tried to hold back and then she just couldn't it was just her body attacking as she heard her team cheering for her. So when she won her she did share with me she felt like, oh wow I won. Oh, crap, I won.
So now what, now what's going to happen, and was she even it you know I highlight this in the book because the book by the way is written a lot in her telling first story so you can hear the capturing of Rusty's voice.
So, when the tournament director called her over and wanted to have a word, she thought well, is this guy going to give me a compliment. And then right away, she said oh boy, maybe I'm in trouble for something, and she was so excited that she can actually fight in judo in a competition, and be rewarded as opposed to given a citation. So, you know from her gang dates, and when the tournament director, you know, asked her and he said it in a very snide like condescending tone if she was a girl like she did something wrong. So that, I think I'm going a little off topic but that's how, that's how Rusty described the to me but she didn't know she was stepping into a minefield of a women's rights, she didn't know you know, at that time I think Gloria Steinem was fighting for equality and started Ms. Magazine, so she didn't have that mindset, like, I'm going to change the world but she also that day at the YMCA when they took her metal away for just being a female. She said no this is not right, and it goes back to her childhood of her babysitter’s is being made fun of for looking different.
She said that's not right, when she married early, and to just get out of her house and she had to go down south to get the divorce early on in her life. She was sitting in a restaurant and there was an African American woman who had her hands full and was trying to open the door with her foot and nobody got up to open the door for her, so Rusty did. And needless to say the horrible comments and words that flew out of the local’s mouth down south when she opened door for the African American woman. And again, of course, Rusty left and waved a specific finger in the air but realize that wasn't right, you can't have that. And matter of fact, she spent a lot of time with her aunt who was a painter, who's my great aunt, and my aunt was always in the shadows of her husband, who was also a painter, and he was getting all the notoriety, excuse me, and she was supporting his career, but she was just as good. And my aunt Lee Krasner Pollock and supported her husband Jackson Pollock, so rusty grew up watching all of this inequity, and this is what formulated her fighting spirit.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Wow.
Jean Kanokogi:
I know I'm dropping a bunch of bombs on you, Jeremy, sorry.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I'm not used to having to reconcile the stories of greatness that have such diverse lineages of greatness along the way, I mean, you're the genetic product of Jackson Pollock and Samurai. I mean that's, who gets to say that, that's incredible. I love it.
Jean Kanokogi:
Thank you and, you know, I feel that every bit of my lineage, every person that I had the pleasure to know I'm related to interact with to be influenced with, they're all a piece of me and I everyday strive to do better. I everyday strive to positively affect the people's lives that I can possibly touch, whether it be direct or indirect. Through my work, or through weather whether I'm teaching emotional intelligence or whether I'm teaching interviews and interrogation just to positively affect whatever lives that I can, because that's what rusty wanted to do she wasn't looking for awards. She wasn't looking for anything besides what was equal, she didn't want more she would not settle for less.
When she was told that, and by the way I was part of some of these lawsuits to file against the, along with the American Civil Liberties Union, against the United States Olympic Committee, and the International Olympic Committee, and whomever discriminated against women in sports and women in judo, Rusty made sure I was included in this history so I understood it. And one of the things I asked Rusty, when I was putting together the book years ago when she and I sat down to talk about it. I asked her, what do you want me to leave out? What do you want me to scrub? And she said nothing because if you don't put the history in it. There's a possibility history can repeat itself. And women once again, we'll be set back to the Dark Ages.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I'm wondering, because if I've got my dates right, your mother passed away in 2009?
Jean Kanokogi:
Yes.
Jeremy Lesniak:
So late enough that she would have known because it was Ronda Rousey was 2008 her Olympic medal. Okay.
Jean Kanokogi:
Yes, I believe, Ronda got her bronze in 2008. So...
Jeremy Lesniak:
That's what my memories, saying so unfortunately not long enough to see what she did with that which has been an utterly amazing career over the last 13 years. Absolutely touching. Touching so much and, you know, for a time not that we talk MMA on this show, but it's, we have to acknowledge that during her tenure in the UFC she was the biggest draw, which, you know, how often does a woman get to claim, you know, they are not the biggest in their division but the biggest.
Jean Kanokogi:
That's true. Well, sorry interrupt you. Just a fun fact is Rhonda is mom Emery was on the judo team. When rusty was coaching, we were like, we had several different teams and Rhonda's mom was the first woman to win a first US woman to win a World Championships. So I mean she was a tenacious fighter, she's brilliant. She also holds a PhD, she's a brilliant woman, very warm kind wonderful woman that I consider my friend, and we were on the US team together, Rusty was one of the coaches, of course, you know, not her Judo instructor but one of the coaches.
And not too long ago, a couple years ago I got together with Emory and Rhonda and Rhonda is just, you wouldn't believe it. If you saw you know her persona from television but she is just one of the nicest people. I just feel like when I'm talking to you I can just close my eyes and give her a hug because she's that sweet.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Everyone that I've spoken with who has met her has said that.
Jean Kanokogi:
Yeah, she she's just terrific, absolutely terrific and I read an article actually I saw an article that said, I think it was an article about Rhonda, that it said if there was if there would be no Ronda without Rusty.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And that's kind of what I wanted to set up, and this is absolutely not to take anything away from Ronda Rousey, or Kayla Harrison, or any of the male competitors, nothing I'm not trying to take anything away. What I wanted to set up was a question towards her later years, because she clearly, Rusty was out to do some amazing things and, you know, I don't know how long the list was but it seems like she got a lot done, as she got older, and I'm assuming spent at least some time reflecting. What did she share with you about how she saw the transitions that she helped and in many cases spearheaded?
Jean Kanokogi:
She will want one of the things and Rusty and I would have a lot of really deep conversations before she passed away, and really no airs just, you know, no filters just straight talk, because time was limited, and you know, we both knew it. In the Women's Sports Foundation Richard aider actually Richard Gator opened a Rusty Kanakogi fund for girls and women in judo and the Women's Sports Foundation manages it. So in 2000, early 2009 Rusty asked me to be on the committee to make the decisions on who gets the award. Each year, it's anywhere from, I think it's up to $5,000 in sponsorship, myself, Richard Gator and Billie Jean King, at least are on the board as well as some other people.
I asked rusty in 2009, who were you selecting for the first recipient to be the first recipient of this award? And she said, Kayla Harrison. So I said well, who's Kayla Harrison, and she looked at me and she said, you’ll see.
Jeremy Lesniak:
She knew.
Jean Kanokogi:
She knew. And again, Kayla loves her dearly, want to, you know, as much as she unleashes in the cage and on the mat. She is truly a hero and a champion for so many efforts on and off the mat, she's just an amazing person. So when she told me you'll see and when I saw Kayla win her first gold medal. I couldn't stop crying. Because that gold medal granted Kayla trained her guts out for a little piece one gram of that metal that was Rusty's because it allowed you know rusty had a dream that American woman would win a gold medal in the Olympics and Kayla just satisfied it right there. And Rusty knew.
Jeremy Lesniak:
For listeners who may not know you maybe recognize the name Kayla Harrison won Olympic gold in judo in 2012 and 2016, and was the first American woman to do so. So, in the judo space was it was a huge deal. I remember correctly, we talked a little bit about this on the episode I did interview with Jimmy Pedro, which I don't mind remember that episode number will drop in the show notes.
Jean Kanokogi:
And Jimmy is a fantastic coach he turns out champions after champions, Jimmy Pedro was recently inducted into the International Judo Federation's Hall of Fame. The same year, he was inducted into the Hall of Fame for the IGF, Rusty was the first American woman, inducted into the IJF Hall of Fame in Azerbaijan and Jimmy was kind enough to accept the award on behalf of our family because we couldn't travel at that time to Azerbaijan to accept.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Too cool. One more question that I want to talk about the book, because we shouldn't we've hinted at it I want to make sure the listeners know, you know, well, we'll get there. Obviously, here now in hindsight, you see the granddaughter that you came from, that this woman your mother was the legacy that she's left behind. How old were you when you first realized?
Jean Kanokogi:
I would think I was about 14. When I realized, Wow, mom is no joke, because in 1980 she single handedly along with members of our dojo held the first woman's world Judo championships in Madison Square Garden, and she was in charge, she was in my eyes as a team, young team, she was the person who was large and in charge and I noticed it when I said well, Rusty is my mom, and then if I wanted somebody to get out of my seat or something like that well Rusty, you know Rusty's my mom I'll go get her. And people would like jumped out of the seat I said Wow, mom is something.
Rusty was told for women's judo in order to become a possibility in the Olympics, you need a world championships, and the US at the time said to Rusty challenged or almost egged her on well you know what, if you want women's judo. You can't, you don't have any standing because you don't have a world championships and of course Rusty retorted we'll all have a world championships, and they said yeah where it was almost like a schoolyard banter, she goes, well, I'll have it at Madison Square Garden, and they looked through Oh really, she said, Yes, really.
So she came home and went to our dojo and she said, All right, guys, we got a round of troops we're having a world championships at Madison Square Garden. So somebody reminded her she only had about $140 in the bank. How are we going to do this. She literally pulled this off, and I've never seen such a spectacular event, a memorable event held at Madison Square Garden is the first woman's world championships and gave these women the opportunity to weigh in on the same scales, as Joe Frazier and Muhammad Ali, and to this date 40 years later, People are still talking about all over social media. They're amazing experiences and posting photos. Recently, one of the women posted a photo of the British team, visiting Coney Island, and just reminiscing of this, and this was the story of how women Judo can be included into the Olympics because the World Championships started right then in there.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Amazing and I'm going to guess that, you know, while most people would take five or 10 years to plan this out your mother probably did it, what like 12 14 months or something.
Jean Kanokogi:
Less than that. She was, I think it was 1979 in February, or January, no I'm sorry it was November or December of 78. She started coming up with this idea because there were some Pan American championships held in the US said oh, there's no such thing but yet she would get letters from them as well as saying yes we held with Pan American championships, and remember this is the 70s so we don't have the internet in the cell phones and the photos we have snail mail.
So the US didn't even said well we don't believe that they held these championships and that I mean it was just so ludicrous, looking back in hindsight. But, yeah, probably about 12 months, you're right. 12 To 14 months then.
Jeremy Lesniak:
That's incredible. So let's talk about this book, you mentioned the title. You know, I think the why you wrote it is, is probably pretty apparent to anyone listening, but let's talk about the how, as a reader myself I find the process that others used to be pretty fascinating.
Jean Kanokogi:
The why is part of a promise, I have three promises before my mom passed away. One was to finish my PhD, which I did in its PhD in psychology, two was to always take care of and look out for my dad, which, knock on wood, he's very healthy, very happy and very well fed, because I always bring him some good food.
And the third was to get her story out; she said this story needs to be told. People need to know the truth. People need to know what happened. So, back in about 2004-2005, she started writing her manuscript, she started just free writing pen to paper a narrative of her life, she would send me chapters we cleaned it up we put in order. We would take some things out so she and I kind of moved through it 2004-2005. And then she thought okay I can get this published maybe she worked with certain writers, and every writer she tried to work with. It was too fluffy it was a to once upon a time, and they wouldn't capture Rusty's voice because the writer would sit down with her and she would say something like, you know this Michigan, and they're like what's a Michigan. Oh, get out next. You know when we call somebody, I don't know if I can say certain words certain Yiddish terms on the radio, but.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I don't think the censors it at Apple podcasts pick up on either show, 54:07
Jean Kanokogi:
So yeah, the Michigan oh, or this guy was a real putt so you know. So, when the writer would say, how do you spell putts out? Next, get out. And then on top of it, it was tough because not only that you have the Yiddish terminology you had the rusty isms and the Brooklyn terminology. And then you pepper that with the Japanese words and the Japanese terms of judo and then Rusty's Brooklyn Japanese on top of it.
You know the only one who understood her was me, because I speak all of that I grew up and all of that. And so she told me you got to get this story out people need to know it because it's not just a judo story. It's a story of love for sport, love for humanity, love for my dad. It's a love story how he followed her back to the United States, and also inspires people to get up and fight and whether their fight is to go outside and get some fresh air to get out of bed, to go to the gym and work out, whatever their fight is, it will inspire you, because she was just an ordinary person growing up making the same mistakes tripping over her own feet, but yet she was able to get up and fight. And this story had to be told.
The other thing it does is one of Rusty isms is in life, either you're the hammer, or you're the nail, and she told me you'd be the hammer, but being the hammer people have this misconception that you know the hammer goes around bullying. No, the hammer is there as a supporter. The hammer is there to create because once you hit the nail you're creating something. So the hammer is not the bully, but it's actually the leader, and you have to be a leader, whether it be in your own life or in the lives of others, because that's the only way humanity can keep moving forward in a positive way. So this story will tell you know the little girl some history, it'll give you a little bit of a cultural tour as she went through Japan and all of the antics over there. And it also will maybe inspire you to go do something and go change lives of other people through whatever your talents are.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Where can people find the book?
Jean Kanokogi:
you can get this book right now the 40th anniversary of the first women's world championships and Special Edition it's very limited. You can get that at www.rustykanakogie.com you can get the Kindle version on Amazon, and soon we're going to have a global release to be determined sometime in May or June, but on rustykanakogie.com, you can definitely order this book and we also have some challenge points.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Nice. Well, this has been phenomenal. I think I've laughed this much in an interview in a long time.
Jean Kanokogi:
Thank you.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I love the laugh.
Jean Kanokogi:
If you don't laugh, I mean what's the point.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Exactly, like life is too ridiculous, and of course the things that we do as martial artists are even more ridiculous than what the average person indoors, you don't take it back to one of the things I said at the beginning, you know we punch our best friends in the face where we throw them around and we wear pajamas and it's silly, but in the best way.
Jean Kanokogi:
And you know one of the biggest belly laps, I have to tell you, Rusty and I had was we were doing, which he called me the form practice and she was supposed to be anchored by two other people. I didn't realize that she was taking a quick break, so I came in on a technique and I threw it through the wall of the dojo. And we're both sitting there sheet rock on our head and laughing not we couldn't even catch our breath laughing nobody else knew what to do, whether to help us to look away to laugh. My father walks over, not seeing if his daughter and wife are okay, but looks at us and said; now I must fix wall and walks away.
Jeremy Lesniak:
That sounds like the perfect anecdote for your entire family.
Jean Kanokogi:
Yes, that captures it.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Beautiful. I love it. Well, I always ask the guests, you know, what words you want to use to send us out to the outro that I'll record later, you know, parting words of wisdom, final thoughts motivation. How do you want it?
Jean Kanokogi:
That's a good question. I'd like to end. Well, first of all I don't want to end because I certainly enjoy talking to you. But I think really with the Rusty-ism that in life, either you're the hammer or the nail, be the hammer and lead well. I think that that sums it up.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I told you in the intro. I told you this was a whoa sort of an episode. I laughed hard, You didn't hear me I was biting my hand from the laughter. The power of this episode really struck me, I hope you enjoyed it. I hope that you take Dr. Jean's words from her mother to heart. Be the hammer, and I hope that you'll also realize, however you look at the situation this story. This dynamic of this amazing family, you'll see the value that everyone played the pieces that needed to be there for each of them.
It's easy for us to to think of Rusty. And, you know, hone in simply on what she was able to accomplish but I can't imagine that all that would have happened without the other pieces of the puzzle, including Dr. Jean.
So thank you for coming on the show. I appreciate the stories, the laughter and the wonderful conversation that we had ahead of and after the show. Sorry listeners, you don't get to listen to those that was just for us, great times.
If you want to see more from photos and links all that for this and, honestly, every other episode we've ever done go to whitstlekickmartialarts.com, You sign up for the newsletter, you can give us guest suggestions, you can check out a ton of stuff. But if you're up for supporting us and the work that we do, don't forget, you could share an episode, leave a review on Apple podcasts or Google or Facebook or any number of places.
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