Episode 592 - Kazuki Hongo
Kazuki Hongo is a retired martial arts practitioner of the Japanese art of archery, Kyudo.
In highschool, my classmates change every year so we had to introduce ourselves every first day of school. There was this classmate that said I can’t be the best player in Kyudo. I think he was joking but that made my heart really motivated and those words kept me pushing myself.
Kazuki Hongo - Episode 592
Living life from one country to another, life can change in an instant. Such was the case for Kazuki Hongo, who grew up living in different countries due to his father’s work and the thing that kept him connected to his culture was Martial Arts. Living in the US, he learned Karate with his friends, and by reaching middle school, he’s in Tokyo trying out for Kyudo, the Japanese art of Archery. Hongo-san joined either because he wanted a sport that he wouldn’t run or he wanted to honor and embrace his own culture that he missed half of his life. Join us as we talk about Kazuki Hongo’s journey to the art of Kyudo.
Show Transcript
You can read the transcript below.
Jeremy Lesniak:
How's it going everybody? Welcome! This is whistle kick martial arts radio Episode 592, with my guest today, Kazuki Hongo. My name is Jeremy Lesniak show host and whistle kick founder, where everything we do is in support of the traditional martial arts. If you want to know more about what we do go to whistlekick.com that's the place to learn about all of our projects and our products and you can even find a place to buy the stuff that we make over there and the code. Don't forget this podcast 15 gets you 15% off, anything that we sell. Everything for this show is on a different website, whistlekickmartialartsradio.com. We bring you the show twice a week and our goal here at whistle kick, well, we're working hard to connect, educate and entertain you the traditional martial artists of the world.
You want to help the show and support the work that we do, you can do a number of things, you can make a purchase, share an episode, follow us on social media, you could tell a friend about us or pick up a book on Amazon, leave a review on Apple podcasts or Spotify or Stitcher or wherever or you could support us on Patreon patreon.com/whistlekick place to go for that you can support us monthly with as little as $2 a month and we've got options going up for there. Bottom line, the more you're willing to throw our way the more exclusive content you're going to get access to it's exclusively for Patreon supporters. And we've done stuff recently like I did a bonus video/audio episode talking about exploring skills that maybe you're not so good at and the impact of that on your overall martial arts training.
On today's episode I had the pleasure of talking with because Kazuki Hongo who has the distinction of being a martial artist coming from a martial arts style that I'm all but sure I did a quick check. And I don't see anybody. So my apologies if I'm wrong on this, but I'm pretty sure I'm not. Here we are. It's Episode 592. And we're still bringing on people with martial arts practices that haven't been on before. How cool is that? That's how diverse deep martial arts traditions are throughout the world. And I love that are my favorite things about what we do.
In this episode, we talk about how we got started, how it impacted his personality, what he's done since he's retired, and the demands of being a national champion. Talk about that, and a whole bunch more. So here we go with the episode.
Hongo San, welcome to whistle kick martial arts radio.
Kazuki Hongo:
Hi!
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah, thanks. Thanks for doing this. This will be fun. You're going to talk about something that you've done that I'm going to guess, almost nobody, maybe one or two people listening to this, unless their friends or people who have trained with you have done, you're going to talk about something that you've trained in that most of us have been trained in, and I'm super pumped for that. And listeners are wondering what's he talking about with Jeremy talking about? We'll get there. But I'd rather just kind of let it happen. So let's start with this. Okay, what's your earliest memory of any martial art at all being aware of what martial arts was? Was it a movie or TV show or something like that?
Kazuki Hongo:
Well, I think it was 03:37 karate, when I lived in the US, my friends were practicing karate. So I think that was the first time I've seen martial arts with that answering the question.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And do you remember the context? Did you go hang out with somebody and they were you know, training karate, and so you want to watch them do class or?
Kazuki Hongo:
Well, I remember going to a friend's party, a birthday party. And we had to wear those doggy, the uniforms and we get we had a chance to chop woods. I don't know how to express it. But, yeah, I have like a memory that I was going to a friend's birthday party and wearing uniforms and chopping boards with my bare hands. That was really fun.
Jeremy Lesniak:
How old are you?
Kazuki Hongo:
I think I was eight or like seven year old.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Maybe I'm spoiling this a little bit. But at some point not long after a few years later you moved out of the US so were you born in the US? Or did you move here when you were young?
Kazuki Hongo:
I moved to the US when I was young. Well, I was born in Japan. Because of my father's work, I moved to a few countries which were Hong Kong, Korea, the United States, Hong Kong and Singapore. So four countries, and then I came back to Japan when I was 12 years old. And from that day, I'm living in Tokyo since then.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Is your father in finance banking?
Kazuki Hongo:
No, he was working in a zipper company.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Oh, okay. They're all countries that I that I know of as being heavy banks, financial institutions.
Kazuki Hongo:
The friends that I met when I lived in overseas, their fathers were all working at financial companies. So yeah, but my father wasn't working in financial company. He was a businessman at a zipper company. I think everyone knows.
Jeremy Lesniak:
So seven, eight years old. You're at this birthday party. It's the first time you put on a gi you break some boards. And what did you think? Was this something you said, oh this is super cool, or hey, this is kind of fun. I'm gonna go, you know, eat cake. Now. What was your takeaway?
Kazuki Hongo:
06:20 What I remember it was my hands were hurt because I was chopping wood. So yeah, I didn't. I didn't think that karate was the kind of sport that I want to do. Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Was there any other martial arts experience prior to your return to Tokyo?
Kazuki Hongo:
I started playing Kyudo Japanese archery when I started junior high school, middle school. Yeah, that was the first time I seen Kyudo. And I never known there was a martial arts called Kyudo. And, well, if I talk about my life, I was well, like, Japan, the entrance exams, 07:12 saying get right, I find excitement expressing it, right. It's a lot of kids take the insurance exam, when they're graduating elementary school to go into a really good Middle School. And since I was studying, really long time, I was studying, like the whole day. And I became fat, I wasn't in a shape that I couldn't run or play sports. So when I entered middle school, I wanted to start a sport where I didn't have to run, and also where everyone is in the same start line.
So their experience until 12 years old, doesn't matter. I want to do some kind of sport like that. And that's when I found Kyudo where everyone, most of the people, even in Japan, they don't be start around middle school or maybe High School. So like 12 years old, 13 years old, or 16 years old. And so the experience doesn't matter and they didn't run. So that was like my true thought of the reason why I started Kyudo. But when I asked my parents, what did I say in those days? They told me that I told them that I wanted to play Kyudo because I want I lived overseas for a long time. And I didn't know the Japanese like a typical Japanese culture. And I wanted to become Japanese. So I said that's why I want play, I want to join the club.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Do you believe that answer now or do you think you were 09:22 to your parents? It's It sounds like you're not quite sure if that was the real reason then.
Kazuki Hongo:
Well, you know, there are there. I think both the reasons are true. And then I did think that I felt a bit outside from the students around me, since, like, going to be like a PR, but like Japan is a really good country. And it's very convenient, there's a lot of convenience stores. And it's clean and it's cheap. A lot of it felt really new to me. But for the people around me, it was like, it's foreigner for them. So a lot of like, besides those points, I felt really outside and not feeling Japanese. So, the reason that I told my parents, I think that is true. If I answer your questions.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah, you're doing you're doing fine. When I ask a question, there's no requirement that you answer it. I just asked the question, you keep talking. We have plenty of episodes where I'll ask a question. And 20 minutes later that guest will pause and say, Did I answer your question? And I say I don't even remember the question. Just keep going.
Kazuki Hongo:
Okay.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I'm wondering about, go ahead.
Kazuki Hongo:
Well, yeah, that was the start of my Kyudo life.
Jeremy Lesniak:
But why Kyudo, if I'm imagining, I'm trying to put myself in your in your place. And I would imagine that if I came back to Japan, and I'm trying to honor and embrace my culture, my heritage, I would think I would choose something that was more common. I would, if you asked me if we had, if you had told that story up until the point where you chose Kyoto. If we had put a pause in the story there and you said, guess what I chose? I would have guessed Karate. Did you not choose Karate because of your experience when you were younger? Or was it was there something else?
Kazuki Hongo:
It was totally different. It was thing else. And, well, first of all, Kyudo does not common in Japan too, but actually the numbers of people practicing especially in high school is the most, I think it was so like Judo and Karate, and many other martial arts that are common overseas are quite different in Japan. Well, especially in high school. I think, well, if you research it, I think it's going to come up.
But when I recently searched about the population of people, or the population of the people practicing Kyudo, it said that the high school, when you when you put in high school, Kyudo is the most common in martial arts.
So, the reason why I chose Kyudo was because there was a lot of a member in the club in our school, compared to the other martial arts club. So there was there was Judo and there was Karate and there was Kendo, the sword, the martial arts of the Japanese swords and compared to the other martial arts club. The Kyudo club was most common in our school, and they had a very good reputation. They were winning a lot. And they were strong. So I that's why I chose Kyudo.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Do you remember your first day?
Kazuki Hongo:
Yes.
Jeremy Lesniak:
What was that? Like? I think everybody listening knows that feeling of your first day of training, and how anxious you can be but excited and everything is new. You don't know anything. Every single thing that they show you and tell you is brand new. What was that like for you?
Kazuki Hongo:
It was really boring.
Jeremy Lesniak:
That's not the answer I expected. Was it boring?
Kazuki Hongo:
Well, Kyudo is to the audience's that doesn't know Kyudo . To explain what kind of sport it is, is we compete by 15:01, and the length of the, from where you're standing and to the target is 28 meters. And I think it's right, I think it was 28 meters. And the wide of the target is 36 centimeters. And it's pretty dangerous because if you shoot an arrow, someone, of course it's going to hurt.
So before we start standing on, like in front of the target, we have to, like know the rules. And the Kaka, like there, it's called the sacral 15:59. And it's a Japanese word. And it's called the, how do you say it in English, but it's like a 16:13 style to shoot an arrow. And you have to first do it in air like playing the guitar. And then you will be able to use this practice bow which is made out of rubber. And then you'll be able to stand in front of this practice. Target profuse, it's called 16:53 but if you translate it in English, it's going to be rolled straw. So there's this big pile of straw where you can shoot at it. And it's not dangerous. So we use it before sending, it's going to be like a warm up when you become a player. But before you even start as a player, you have to like step by step by step. So in my first day of practice, I wasn't able to touch the ball or touch the arrows, or even wear the uniform. But we just had to like do this air thing. And I remember it was really boring. And it was boring until I think I was born until like the third month. Because it takes a lot of time to be able to like to the school to give us the ball to practice. So I remember it was really boring. And I wanted to quit on my third day or something.
Jeremy Lesniak:
But you didn't, why not?
Kazuki Hongo:
I think it was my teammates, especially my teammates. It was really fun playing with, like not playing doesn't practicing Kyudo, but playing games and talking and it was fun. So I think that's the reason why I didn't quit.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I remember that time of my life. And yeah, just about everything that we do, or want to do has to do with what our friends are doing. And it's something that I'm hoping martial arts schools, instructors, school owners that are listening to this, hear this, that the social component here was enough to keep you going even though you were bored for months, because there were friends there.
Kazuki Hongo:
And also in addition to that, and then listen to my teammates been really fun to play with. There was this guy, my team. He was an elder Senpai, if you say in Japanese. And he was a bit harsh and he was really like to be honest, he was really 19:54 And those bad, but those thoughts and feelings motivated me to not quit and become better than him. So well that that feeling keep motivated me for a long time, even though my college years. But that was a big part of me that didn't make me quit the club.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Was this Senpai was this student in the school or was it someone older?
Kazuki Hongo:
He was old. He was in the school; he was one year older than me. Okay. And since in Japan, there's this. There's this culture where the older you are the like, they have to be. I don't know, I'd say but the older you are, the better and their position in the club. It doesn't matter if they are great or not. But the younger have to 21:18 them. Because he was really well, he was my teammate. He was my longest team throughout my 10 years of Kyudo practice. And he was a very good rival to me. But I remember that when I joined the club, and on the second day or something, I think he said that you're not going to be able to play Kyudo or whatever. And I was really, like, motivated to beat him on the day. And that kept me ongoing.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I get that I can I can relate to that motivation. I've had people like that in my life. And I think most of us have that. Just their existence, their frustration, their criticism, whatever it is, is motivating for us to get better. So if you continue to play, and he remained a rival that suggests to me that you got a lot better. And maybe, at some point, you started beating him at least.
Kazuki Hongo:
Yes, I did.
Jeremy Lesniak:
What was it like the first time you beat?
Kazuki Hongo:
It was, well, first time I beat him was when I was in second grade. And it was, like, thrilling, but I didn't win the tournament, I beat him. But I wasn't the first. And that made me more motivated. So I wasn't like, fulfilled with my achievement. Like, not just beating him and I think that's the point when I like, my mindset changed from beating someone to like, achieving the best that I can do. So to sum it up, I wasn't like, the typical, like, not typical, but I wasn't like the person or player that wanted to practice to do for my, like, my mental thoughts or something. But it was all about winning, and getting better. to not get beaten by anyone. So that was my motivation.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Were you competitive outside of Kyudo? What about academics?
Kazuki Hongo:
To be honest, no, I was not good at taking tests. Well, throughout my 10 years, well, I started to Kyudo when I was 13, and I retired last year when I graduated University, and I used all of my time. Like really all of my time to get in better. So, when I was, this is not good. It's not good. I'm not a good student. But when I was taking classes, I would put my iPhone inside my, like, my pen case, where I put my pen and all those stuffs for school, I would put my iPhone inside there. And I would watch my videos throughout the lesson. And I would know on like, what kind of practice I need to do today. And yeah, so when I think about my high school life and mid school life, it was all about getting better at Kyudo. Yeah, I was all in. 25:55 So I didn't have a friends.
Jeremy Lesniak:
26:02 friends, okay.
Kazuki Hongo:
Oh, well, what I the first time I won the National it was when I was in my last year in high school. And it was an after that. A lot of Japanese students where they don't have to take insurance exams for universities or colleges. They go out to take a vacation, and play with your friends. But when I retired from high school Kyudo, I noticed that I didn't have a lot of friends, because I use all of my time and resources on getting better at Kyudo. So yeah, that's, like a very big memory to me that notice me myself that I use all of my time, all in Kyudo.
Jeremy Lesniak:
What did your parents think of that? What did your your teachers think of that, this this singular focus on Kyudo?
Kazuki Hongo:
Well, although I didn't have like a great score, like a good score, I did. Like, do like the at least line, like the minimum line for the school. So my parents did say, to study more and think about my career. But after a few years, when they recognized, not recognized, but they when they understood that I was not like, lying that I wanted to be the best player. They didn't, like, they started motivated me and they took my back. And they supported me. And the teachers were the same as well. Well, I didn't do well. But as I said, I did the minimum behind, I did not to drop lessons or drop grades. So they didn't say that I was like, not a good student. After I think it was like, the third year, the middle school, the third middle school year. Yeah. From then, that's like the point when I started to win at tournaments. And the school recognized me that I was doing well. And from that point, they didn't, yeah, they supported me on there.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Now we've kind of skipped over this progress, you know, in a fairly short period of time, you went from being completely new to this art, to being very good at this art. How did you get so good? Was it because you were all in and watching videos during class and really committed to it in a way that others were not? Or was there more to it?
Kazuki Hongo:
Well, it was. I think there are mainly two reasons that I became so well. And the first reason was the environment of my club. There were really good coaches. And they taught me a lot of things and when I graduated a school called Kayo, and they have like a culture where the elders the elders trying to teach the younger years, as in like, they have like a culture. I don't know how to say it, but there's this environment and it has like a history of more than 120 years. So a lot of the coaches are, were the graduates of the school and around, like, around my, the other schools, they only had one teacher, the teacher in the school, but we had coaches, a lot of coaches. I think there were like six or seven. And most of the other schools, they only had one teacher, and one coach, which means one coach, and our coaches, they had the experience a lot more than most of the other teachers and other schools.
So, the coaches taught me a lot of things. They knew the highest level of Kyudo. I think that was the first reason, like the biggest I think it's the biggest reason I think it was their help, that make me a good player. And the second reason was my personality, or like character, where I'm motivated the most when I'm like rejected by someone that I'm saying you're right but when someone says you can't achieve it, I become more motivated and more courage to like to keep me up. And, well, I remember when I was in high school. My school changed class every year, like the classmates change every year. And there was this classmate. And we have to introduce ourselves on the first day of school. And when I was introducing myself I said that my dream is to become the best player in Kyudo, and he said, Well, I think he was joking, but he was saying that you can't do that, you're not going to be able to teach that. And that made my heart like really motivated. And that words, kept me pushing myself. So those, like my personality and the coaches and the environment was two reasons, I think the most that I was able to become a good player.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I get it. And I can relate to that I'm very similar when someone tells me you can't do something. I work that much harder on it in fact what we do here at whistle kick everybody at the beginning said, you can't do that it's not going to work, don't bother, just quit now. You can tell them where they can go with that opinion. Now, here we are years later. Let's talk about how your Kyudo practice impacted your life because when we talk about martial arts, no matter what the martial art is, no matter what country it comes from. When we talk to people on this show, we hear their stories about how their training, made their lives better as you got deeper and better into your Kyudo practice. How did it change you?
Kazuki Hongo:
I think it change and a lot of ways of my life. First of all, I'm working at a company called Mitsubishi Corporation. And I think I wouldn't have been able to join this company. If I didn't play Kyudo and reason why I think is the reason why is this, there's two big lessons that I learned. And the first was the lesson that there are things. That's the second one more. The first thing is that I learn that it's every responsibility is coming to you. And, Kyudo is not a sport or martial art competes with an opponent, make a living opponent or person. You have to compete with yourself since the targets not moving, and the environment. The rule doesn't change, and the environment doesn't change, even in practice, or even in tournament, or in the games.
So, for other martial arts or any sport, there's always going to be an opponent, most of the sport and like not golf for me maybe, athletics, running. They are similar but Kyudo doesn't have an opponent, so every single arrow that you shoot is going to be your responsibility, and no one's going to be able to like change positions for you. And even if you don't have confidence, even, you're not in a good moment or not moment but even if you're not like doing well. At that point, you still have to do your work.
You have to be responsible on what you do. And that's, like, I think that's the biggest lesson that I learned from Kyudo.
And the second one is that there are stuff or occasions that you can't control and for Kyudo tournament's and middle school, high school and in college or university. The most common rule is played by a team. So you get to shoot four arrows, but the sum of the total number of arrows that are in the target as a team. So even if you'll be able to shoot for arrows in the target and you take responsibility of what you have to do. There are certain times where your teammates aren't doing as well as you do, and you lose. I think understanding that was like the second biggest lesson that I learned from Kyudo.
So, we played by an individual, you only have to get four arrows, and it can't change, but when you see as a team. You're not even if you're in good circumstances; you're not able to support any of your other team. It's like changing arrows or, like, instead of your teammates shooting. You can't do that. And I think that's like learning that lesson is was quite a big influence to me throughout my life.
So like, what the reason why I thought I learned this lesson, especially the second one was I became like the ace number and like the best team, like the best player in the club around when I was in the first year of high school. And but the coaches depended on me so they taught me a lot of lessons and taught me their experience. And so my mindset and my level was very high compared to my other teammates. So, I like, I should target over 90% when I was in the third year of my high school. And that's pretty. That's pretty good, and not a lot of people can go to that stage, but I was able to become one of those players to should target 90% more and that. But as a result throughout my last year in high school. I lost most of the games, I think, I didn't, I wasn't able to win as a team in my last year of high school, although I don't want to say this but I was like the best player in the my region. And that's when I learned the lesson that there are stuff, occasions that you can't just control. But if you want to, you have to prepare and think about the big picture. And, like, you have to motivate not only yourself, but your teammates to achieve your big goal. Yeah, that's what I learned from Kyudo.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Now you've mentioned a couple times that you retired from Kyudo, why?
Kazuki Hongo:
Well I am a coach at my high school team right now. Well, I can't live with by playing Kyudo like you can't be a pro athlete at Kyudo. You have to work and since I became, I was able to be in a high level and Kyudo. I knew that I can't, like, get all my time throughout my life and keep my level after graduating university. Like, I don't know how to say but I just, I didn't want to become a player. Like, I didn't want to become a player that in a lower level that I was before. So that's why I'm a coach right now, so you have to become. You don't have to put your, you have to all in all of your resources. Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
It becomes harder as you step into the world and become an adult, and have all these other responsibilities. I think we see that in a lot of sports that people who stay competitive at a high level whether it's a martial art or something else. They tend to delay a lot of things. Quite often they're delaying family or starting a business or a professional career that they really want, because their athletics or competitive endeavor is so important. And I completely understand what you're saying that it was time to put it down to step away to not be all in. So you could invest some of that energy and other things.
Kazuki Hongo:
Yes, and as I said before, I think the biggest reason is because that I didn't have the confidence to keep up my level, like working and doing both at the best. I didn't have, I don't have the confidence still. And I didn't want my level to anything too big we didn't want my level to get lower. I think that's the biggest reason that I put down to you. And also, It wasn't really fun.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Why, what changed?
Kazuki Hongo:
Well, my thoughts weren't like, it wasn't something that I was supposed to have fun with it was like my job. So, and since then I joined when I was in university was, they had a really long history and 47:30 you had a big responsibility to win, and not losing and taking responsibility and wasn't like practicing wasn't fun for me, especially in my last years, because a lot of my around the coaches and graduates of our club are like pushing me really hard that you have to win this game. We have to win that tournament, and all this, you have those responsibilities as a captain, and because I was a player that everyone knew there was this pressure on me. And, yeah, it wasn't fun. So, that's why. That's also why.
And if I play Kyudo again, I think that I would like my memories of those years are going to come back to me. And it does, as a coach, it does come back to me right now, but as a player, I couldn't stand that. So yeah, that's another reason too.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Is coaching fun?
Kazuki Hongo:
Well, yes coaching is fun because it's not about me. And you can see the influence on the students from me that they're doing better. And most of the students start from 13 or 16 years old, and they don't have a lot of experience, so the more you teach them, the more they get better. When you see them having really big smiles on their face when they get better, makes me feel good. So coaching is fun. Although I have to use half of my weekends to them. But it's fun.
Jeremy Lesniak:
All right, do you think you would ever try another martial art or would only ever be Kyudo?
Kazuki Hongo:
I do want to pray Kendo at some point my life. And I do have like to use my experience on other sports, or martial arts, and see where I can go like testing my experience on others sports and martial arts. This is only for Kyudo or not. I do have a thought like that, but it's not my time yet.
Jeremy Lesniak:
This seems like a good point to wind down. I always ask the guests a pretty similar question I'm going to ask it in a different way with you as we as we close up this episode. Usually I asked the guests for just some parting words of wisdom from why but I want to do this a little differently. Let's imagine that the audience was Kyudo team that you're coaching, and the match is about to begin. And you have to give them some advice, and then walk away. Final words that they hear from you, before the competition begins. What would you tell them?
Kazuki Hongo:
I would say. It's not about the opponent. It's about you, and even it's the final game of the day. This is going to keep on going. And so you've got to focus on yourself and not to be others. I would say that, and I did say that. When I was a captain to all of my teammates. It's all about you and just focus on yourself, do what you have to do and dominate. Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I had a great time with that conversation, and, you know, first off, super cool talking to somebody who's trained in Kyudo, and if you haven't really dug into what this art is, I would suggest you check it out. We didn't get into the real depth the artistry that is this martial art pursuit sport however you want to term it. We got some hints of in, as he was talking about, you know that day one, you're not shooting the bow downrange, that there's a lot there. But if, if you look up and I did this as a result of our conversation I did a little bit of research, and it goes so deep, there's so much intricacy and nuance as you would expect of a traditional martial art and that's what this is.
I really want to thank you for coming on the show Hongo San, is such a fun conversation I really enjoyed getting to talk to you, learning something, and I want to speculate for the audience, but I can say for sure, for me, I took a lot away from this. So I appreciate your time and your openness, your willingness to share.
If you the audience want to go deeper, check out this episode other stuff that we've got going on in martial arts radio go to whistlekickmartialartsradio.com that's where you're gonna find videos and links and photos and social media and a whole bunch more and it's not just for this episode but every single episode we have ever made. If you're up for supporting us and the work that we do you have lots of options, you might consider buying one of our Amazon books telling others about the show or supporting us at patreon.com/whistlekick. If you're looking for the ideal strength and conditioning program for martial artists, I made it, and you can get it at whistlekick.com use the code podcast 15 anything else that we make, if you've got suggestions guests, general feedback, topics, whatever it is, let us know. Email me at jeremy@whistlekick.com. Our social media is at whistle kick everywhere you can think of. Until next time, train hard, smile, and have a great day.