Episode 556 - Mr. David Liban

Mr. David Liban is a Martial Arts practitioner, filmmaker, and professor at CU Denver's College of Arts & Media.

It was just evident to me that Martial Arts is the kind of exercise, the kind of training that, it may not make you live longer but it will give you a better life if you do it for as long as you live.

Mr. David Liban - Episode 556

Training in college and then taking a break, and then back at it again. A story that may have been familiar but not common to us is the path that Mr. David Liban has taken. During his break from the martial arts, Mr. Liban worked on his filmmaking and produced films such as Looking For Mr. Miyagi and A Feral World. Presently he is training with Sensei Gary Swain in Denver and he is a film professor at CU Denver's College of Arts & Media. Mr. David Liban has used his filmmaking skills with his training and if you want to know what he did, listen to learn more!

Show Notes

You can check out his films here:

Looking for Mr. Miyagi, A Feral World

Other videos mentioned: 

• Perspectives on Shotokan karate:  
• Martial Arts and the legal system: 
• Master Okizaki talks about Funakoshi’s cat
• Outtake “Karate Heart Attack scene”

Show Transcript

You can read the transcript below:

Jeremy Lesniak:

What is happening? You're listening to whistlekick martial arts radio, Episode 558. With today's guest, Mr. David Liban. I am Jeremy Lesniak, I'm your host. I'm the founder at whistlekick. I'm passionate martial artist. And that's why I do what I do. And that's why we do what we do. We're in support of the traditional martial arts and martial artists, probably people like you. If you want to see everything that we're doing, if you want to know more, go to whistlekick.com, that's our online home, place to find our store. And if you find something in there you want to grab use the code podcast 15, save yourself 15%. Our podcast has a website. All right, whistlekickmartialartsradio.com, we bring you the show twice a week, the goal, the show and of whistlekick overall, well, it's all under the heading of connecting and educating and entertaining the traditional martial artists of the world. If you want to help the show in the work that we do, there are lots of ways you can help. You can make a purchase, you could share an episode, you could follow us on social media, where at whistlekick, you could tell a friend, maybe a training partner about what we do, you could pick up one of our books on Amazon, you could leave a review on Apple podcasts or Stitcher or Spotify or wherever you're listening. Or you could support our Patreon, patreon.com/whistlekick. That's where we post exclusive content. If you contribute as little as $2 a month you get access to some of it, the more you're willing to help us out, help cover the expenses of this show. Because yeah, it's not free to make this happen. The more we're going to give you we've got an exclusive video show with a $10 a month tier. And that's where I'm sharing training tips, things that I have learned refined, I don't want to say discovered that's arrogant, but stuff that I've managed to put together that I'm not hearing other people talk about over my decades of training. So if you want to check out what we've got there, patreon.com/whistlekick. Speaking of video, today's guest, Mr. David Liban has made quite a few videos and I don't mean videos like go. I filmed my cat and put it on YouTube, which is pretty much the extent of the videos I make there that caliber don't , these are real films, real movies. And people watch them. And one of the movies that our guest today made was about him and his journey to black belt. We talked about how that all started, we talked about the journey. We talked about the afterwards, we talked about all. We talked about how his martial arts training is similar to mine to yours, and how it's not. So without further ado, Mr. Liban, welcome to whistlekick martial arts radio.

David Liban:
Well, thank you so much. It's a pleasure to be here.

Jeremy Lesniak:
It's a pleasure to have you here. And you know, we're in similar. I don't know if I want to say climates. You know, listeners, we were talking before that, that you're in Colorado. Here I am in Vermont. And there almost seems to be I don't know if you see it from your side. But there seems to be this revolving door between our two states.

David Liban:
Between Vermont and Colorado?

Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah, half the people I know that leave Vermont go to Colorado. And I'm not exaggerating that either.

David Liban:
I mean, I'm from New York originally. So like, I mean, Colorado has a lot of transplants. It's like this huge, booming cities and Denver's is huge. Like they predict that this population going to triple here over the next 20 years. Because we get transplants from California and from the east coast. So it's a very desirable place to live. It's really nice here.

Jeremy Lesniak:
Nice. Nice. What brought you out there from New York?

David Liban:
Um, my I got a job at the University of Colorado, Denver. As a professor, I teach filmmaking there.

Jeremy Lesniak:
Okay. Cool. Cool. And did you go to NYU?

David Liban:
I did not. I went to Brooklyn College. That's where I got my masters.

Jeremy Lesniak:
Oh right on. Right on. And at some point in there, there's some martial arts?

David Liban:
I yeah, I mean, I started.

Jeremy Lesniak:
When? How did that start?

David Liban:
When I actually that Brooklyn College was my graduate degree. But my undergraduate school was as, SUNY Oneonta State University of New York in Oneonta. And they had a Karate class there, you know, for your PhysEd requirement that I took. And it was she told me was the style of her call, and I really loved it. It was really terrific. I enjoyed that. And that became a thing. All my friends are part of that club and I really, you know, benefited from it a great deal. I really loved it there. But then, you know, after college, then finding a job and all these other things. It kind of fell away to the wayside for many years and didn't really get back into it until I was in my 40s.

Jeremy Lesniak:
We've heard this setup before, right we've had people come on the show and, you know, they start training as a kid, or in college. In fact, we've heard the college aspect a few times. And then something life inevitably takes them away, logistically, whatever. And maybe it's selection bias. Because, you know, it's a martial arts podcast, we tend to have people who are passionate about martial arts, not so much casual about martial arts. But in almost every case, the guest has remarked that they missed it. And they were aware of missing it. And I'm wondering if that holds true for you.

David Liban:
And shared as, you know, I was in my mid 40s, I was our second child was born. And I was starting to, like, think like, okay, this is it, what else is next? You know, and I started thinking back into some times in my past that were really meaningful to me, and I just had such a fond memory of Karate that has like, well, you know, why don't I do it? Now, somebody asked me that question. And I couldn't think of a good reason not to, you know, that. So I just found a style that I like that a Sensei that I that seemed, potential, and I just started again, and then I was immediately hooked. So it was really that simple, you know, I thought, what's missing? Well, this would be something that would be I know, it would be beneficial to me, in many ways.

Jeremy Lesniak:
When we go away from something that really becomes part of who we are, you know, and I think the best example for everyone, even people who don't train his family, you know, most of us have a good relationship with our family, most of us appreciate at least the nostalgia of going home, you know, whatever home is, wherever that may be, did you have any of that feeling when you step back in the dojo?

David Liban:
Going back home, you know, not really, because I felt pretty good where I am, you know, as far as my home life was concerned, but there was definitely something missing, you know, I'm not a religious person. So I don't have the sense of community that people often get with their, with their religious spaces. You know, I'm kind of an introvert. So like, I, I have to kind of go out and make these connections on my own. And Karate just has like this built in group of people that are like minded, you know, they have many different, you know, political views, and many different, you know, views on all kinds of things. However, we all are friends, and we all are doing this thing together, you know, and it there's such a bond created in the dojo that becomes, you know, my new community. And it's, and I didn't realize how much I needed that sense of community that I just didn't have, until I went back to the dojo.

Jeremy Lesniak:
It's interesting that you compare it to the religious component that some people have in their lives, because I feel the exact same way. We've heard others talk about that. And, you know, it's rare, I would say, for martial arts to be taught in a religious context. But it does seem to occupy that you refer to it as community that place that belonging. And, you know, what's one thing that the two really have in common? It's a desire to grow?

David Liban:
Yes.

Jeremy Lesniak:
As individuals. And so as you start unpacking what that looks like, for you in this new group of people, you know, what did you find? Is it with the break, I mean, if I'm doing the math, right, 20 years or so?

David Liban:
Yes.

Jeremy Lesniak:
So what was, what were you noticing that was similar from your past training versus maybe something very different?

David Liban:
You know, when you're a college student, you know, you are you don't have a career yet, you don't exactly know where your future is going. And so the class is just another class. But you know, it you know, like, you kind of get the sense that this world is temporary, you know, like this Karate class, you know, I'm going to not stay in this college town the rest of my life so I can, you know, be a martial artists here, I knew that I was going to be moving on and going places so it all has a sense of temporary and then when you when you're doing it, and you're, you know, an adult with a job and with a family, it's like, it's different now because this can be integrated into your day to day in a way that doesn't feel temporary. Like I can keep doing this for the rest of my life if I want to as long as my Sensei keeps, you know, doing his thing or somebody is willing to, you know, pick up where he left off. I feel like this community will allow me to maintain as long as I want to with them. So there is that sense of like, you know longevity.

Jeremy Lesniak:
And so with that longevity, I would imagine there's a sense of comfort that kind of comes along.

David Liban:
You know it? Yeah, I guess there's comfort there. I mean, you know how it is, there's some days when you really want to go and train and are other days, like, I go, and then you get there, and you're like, Oh, thank God, I went, you know, because that was great. I feel so much better. Now. It's just getting out the door. That's the hardest part. You know, once you're there, it's like, oh, my friends, you know, he, you know, just, you know, uh, you know, the people that I am around, you know, I know them pretty well. I feel like those are my true friends. You know, I don't know always exactly what they do in their lives. Except I know who they are, as people. You know, I know where they stand, you know, you want to know how you want to know somebody today, go spar with them, you know, they're bullies are they kind of the teachers are, they are the students, you know, you really get a sense of who they are. And the pleasure that we get in to like, knowing how to do a Kata or knowing how to do the right thing. And, you know, the respect, we get one another, it all feeds into this, you know, this wonderful kind of relationships that we that I find myself being a part of.

Jeremy Lesniak:
I like what you said, if you want to know who someone is, spar with them. And I think that's so true. And that was something that I first heard maybe 15 years ago, and I didn't get it. And in fully understand it. I know be, you know, plenty of people spar in it. And but, but now, now that I'm older now that I've had a chance to get to know more people spar with more people and really understand the inner workings, I guess, of more people. And I completely agree.

David Liban:
Yes. You know, the bullies don't last line, Karate, you know, like, as far Sensei doesn't stand for it, and I just don't see it, you know, like, people don't go to Karate to you know, beat each other up. You know, like, that is not what happens, in least the style that I study, you know, maybe an MMA sort of environment might be a little different. But even then, like those people in that community, they're friends with each other, you know, and they're trying to help each other succeed. You know, I'm a little older. I don't I don't really want to get beaten up. You know, that's not my thing.

Jeremy Lesniak:
I don't think very many people do regardless of.

David Liban:
Yeah, that's probably true. It's not good.

Jeremy Lesniak:
It's not you know, martial arts is funny. It's what, it's that rare. I think it's a unique environment where your best friends are the people that you allow to hurt you the most. Yeah, you give them that much more trust?

David Liban:
Yes.

Jeremy Lesniak
That they're not going to go too far.

David Liban:
Or if they're trained well enough, you know, they know how to go far enough to remind you, oh, yeah, I should have blocked that without breaking my ribs. You know, they just made a lovely little note, say, he should have probably done this.

Jeremy Lesniak:
Exactly. How did you select this, this school, I would imagine being where you are, you've got plenty of options. So you must have had some decision process.

David Liban:
You know, I really liked the traditional style of the Japanese traditional styles. And, you know, in college, I did Shito-ryu, as I mentioned, and I was you know, I wanted to if I if there was a Shito-ryu School nearby where I live, I probably would have explored that. But I know that Shotokan is very similar in many ways, to Shito-ryu. So I looked into Shotokan and there was a few more options there. I called up different schools, and I spoke to the instructors there. And I you know, when I met Sensei Swain or I talked to him on the phone, you know, he was very welcoming. You know, he'd been training for 40 years, I think at the time, he was a seventh degree, I think now, and he’s a sixth degree. Now he's an eighth degree. So he's a master level. And, you know, he just was, you know, I was afraid of going back and hurting myself. And, you know, I was a, you know, a little wary of sparring because I didn't like, you know, I had this thing, and he's like, don't you worry about what we'll do, we'll take it slow, no one's going to hurt you, it's going to be all good. And Shotokan is a style Karate that you know, he always says this thing where you know Karate, you don't Karate fits you. It does not the other way around, you know? So I, you know, depending on what you are capable of, is what you should put out. You know, he pushes you further and further as you get better and better. But at the same point, like if you have an injury, he wants you to be careful with that. And so he was just very welcoming and I and I recognized his expertise. You know, I went to another school, and there's like a, you know, as it was a strip mall. And it was a Karate place. And the guy was, you know, I was in my mid 40s at the time. And he was, I want to say maybe 22. And, you know, he gave me this laminated sheet that had the different packages on there. And this is what it's going to cost and this is how long it takes get a black belt, and you'll and then like I said, okay, thanks any goes I want you to refer to me as Sensei I hadn't even signed up or anything is like yeah, I don't think this is going to work out so well. You know, where this school that where I go to, it takes place in a rec center. So it isn't like as you know the traditional dojo either. But you know, there's something there where like, you know, there's other people working out and playing basketball. But um, you know, you just pay your fee and you go and there you know, there’s no promise of how long anything is going to take. It's just you do it because you want to do it. You know, if you're there to get a belt, and then you're there for the wrong reason is the way this school sort of operates.

Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah, and it's funny, you seem to present kind a that the two major school, schools not intending to use that word, but I guess it is appropriate the two schools of schools. You've got people who are very commercially focused and it you know, that doesn't necessarily mean that there's a lack of quality in the education. But the commercial side, the money, the program, the structure of what you're stepping into is front and center. It's very apparent what you're getting into versus sort of the other way where it almost seems like these schools pop up and the instructor just wanted to train and teach and have some other people to train with and next thing they know they're running a school with you know dozens or even hundreds of people and saying, oh I maybe I'm even making some money doing this and it's I find it fascinating because there are good and bad schools with both methodology.

David Liban:
For sure.

Jeremy Lesniak:
But as you articulated, one is generally going to make more sense resonate better for someone looking to train and it's great that you looked at other schools, not just that one and said, Oh, I'm out.

David Liban:
You know, I once went to a demonstration by Aikido. And I was always very interested in Aikido and the whole notion of using the energy of your opponent against them. And I'm so and there's just terrific Aikido school here in Denver that I was planning on going to, and then I went there, and, you know, it's a difference, you know, the training involves a lot more throwing, and falling and learning how to fall and it wasn't really what I wanted to do when it came down to it, you know. And so, I still love this, you know, I had the idea of Aikido and I admire that style, but it just wasn't my thing. And so like I said before, you know, it's got to be something a bit you not the other way around.

Jeremy Lesniak:
And I like that visual, quite a bit. I'm imagining the idea of, you know, the contrast, right? We're kind of putting on something soft, something flexible. We're fitting it to who we are versus what's the alternative you're putting on a concrete sweater. And that's not going to be very pleasant. Maybe you can get yourself into it, but it's not going to feel good.

David Liban:
Yeah, if you hate it, you're not going to keep doing it, you know, and that's, you know, you want to find something that, you know it's going to grow with you. And Shotokan is it does do that, like we had a guy who just recently stopped training but he was in his 90s. He been doing this for most of his adult life.

Jeremy Lesniak:
Oh cool.

David Liban:
You know, his body clearly was older and you couldn't do anything the same things that he couldn't. He was younger but he knew all Kata. He was a terrific teacher. He was there moving his body and, you know, it was just evident to me that this is the kind of thing that kind of exercises that kind of training that, you know, it may not make you live longer, but I think you'll have a better quality of life that you if you do it for however long you live.

Jeremy Lesniak:
Hmm, absolutely. And here's a bit of, I guess we'll call it fortunate and nerdy trivia. We're recording this on the birthday of the founder of Shotokan.

David Liban:
Oh, really?

Jeremy Lesniak:
You know, today would have been Funakoshi's well is Funakoshi's birthday. But he's gone. Yeah. How fun is that?

David Liban:
That is pretty cool. Right now on my show.

Jeremy Lesniak:
Nice. So this was a few years ago that you started training?

David Liban:
Yes, I started. Let me see now my son was ten. Nine years ago now.

Jeremy Lesniak:
Oh wow. Okay and so clearly, you found a good fit you've stuck around, and what keeps you going back?

David Liban:
Um, but you know, I made this movie called looking for Mr. Miyagi. And so this movie was about me, like, part of what song filmmaker and when I make films, I do a lot of sitting and I do a lot of not moving around. And so that coincided with this desire to return to the dojo and I, so I've been doing it for a couple years. And then I decided to make a documentary about myself. And I'm typically not in front of the camera, I'm not terribly comfortable doing that. But, you know, you use what you have and the resources available. And so I made this movie called, that was for me to get my black belt before I turned 50. And the journey to get there, you know, what it takes to train? And how does that impact my family? And what does that? What am I doing that will draw energy from my wife and my family? And where will I provide more energy. And so that was where, you know, a lot of that was coming from then, by doing interviews, I interviewed, you know, many masters and some authors and so I was trying to get to the heart of what it means to be a martial artist, you know, and it wasn't about the belt, and it wasn't about, you know, beating people up, it was about other self defense that makes gives you energy and gives you confidence and other ways. But it was also really about my personal journey. And trying to document that.

Jeremy Lesniak:
I've talked to a few people who have made films and, and being a filmmaker is it's got to be one of the most complicated, time consuming creative pursuits that exists. I've written books, obviously, I've done quite a few episodes of this show. And I've done a little bit of video editing, and I know how much time it makes takes to make a very short video, that's very bad. So I can only, I can't even fathom the time involved to make something longer, that people actually want to watch. What compelled you to make the story about you?

David Liban:
So you know, when you are an independent filmmaker, and you don't have money behind you, it's you have to kind of look at the world around you what you have access to, and you have to, you know, really do some soul searching because, you know, to make a film, you're committing at least two years of your life to that project, at least. And so you really have to, you know, think it through, is this something I want to live with for the next two years? And, you know, as far as access, you know, if my, you know, it was me, you know, I know I'm available. I live.

Jeremy Lesniak:
And you work for very little.

David Liban:
And I'm cheap. Yes. And so, um, you know, I had to present the question to my Sensei, would he be willing to let me film in his class, you know, and I made a short documentary with him before I made this film, which is on YouTube, it's got a lot of views. And a lot of Shotokan schools use it as an introductory tool, and they bring there's new students, and it's just called perspectives on Shotokan Karate. And so that's been like all over the world. And so he was really pleased that is getting that kind of visibility more so because of his ego but more to kind of let people know about Karate and what it really is. And so then I took it one step further and said, hey, would you mind if I brought some friends, and they videotape us occasionally training and you know, when I took tests, they would videotape the test. And he was very open to it. And he really was a major character in the film. You know, and so, you know, the notion of looking for Mr. Miyagi was, you know, a tongue in cheek sort of thing. But at the same point, it wasn't, you know, I wanted to find a teacher who can help me excel in life, you know, as the fictional character did. So, but it is a time consuming process, you know, when you make it, when you make a fictional film, you have a script, you have a blueprint, when you're making a documentary, you're gathering, gathering, gathering the footage, and then you're sort of figuring it out. In the editing room, even though you know the story more or less, it changes depending on what you get. And so there is a lot of trial and error and experimentations that documentaries typically take longer to edit. And it's a little more complicated, but it doesn't mean it's easier or harder. It's just a very difficult process.

Jeremy Lesniak:
One of the paradoxes that I've read about that I believe extends to documentary films, and I know it more from kind of like a sociology, research observational side is that it's really difficult to observe people without having an impact. And when naturalist go out, and they observe animals, you know that rule number one is to not interfere, which can be really difficult. And I've read that the same, maybe not same, but it's similar with documentaries when you're chronicling a person or object, it can be really hard not for that film to have an impact. I'm imagining being that you were behind the camera and in front of the camera that you're driving this that there was an impact on who you are. And I wonder if you might speak to that.

David Liban:
Sure. I mean whenever you bring a camera to any situation, everybody changes at some level. Everybody. You know, it's so honestly a lot of the times when you get your best material is when they think the camera is off. You know, I always turn off the tally light on my cameras so that you know, you never really know, you know, I might, you know, make it look like, you know, I'll never use any footage that people wouldn't want me to use without their permission, but I may record some footage without them being aware of it because you get the true person versus the person who's on camera. So there is some of that available. So by putting myself in front of the camera, I sort of made a commitment, you know, like, alright, I'm going to do this. There's been many, many times throughout, they're like, Oh my God, am I being self indulgent? Is this really like, people want to see this is like, am I embarrassing myself? And I would probably answer yes to all above at some level, you know, so I tried to poke fun at myself, while I was doing it, no, showing my weaknesses and showing my struggles and, you know, trying to lose weight at the time. And, you know, so all that stuff come together. And, you know, I found a guy who's a trainer, a physical trainer, and he's also an MMA guy, and I think he got a black belt in Taekwondo. So he was really good fighter, like better fighter than I've ever been. Tough guy, young guy, but he agreed to be on camera with me and help me train to get there. And so, you know, he would come front of me and I would use that material because I, I felt it was important to be a little bit, you know, self deprecating at some level to, you know, so it wasn't full of myself. So, you know, I felt like I was doing a film about anybody going through a midlife crisis, you know, so that was really the kind of the idea behind it is that my midlife crisis wasn't a car, it was going back to Karate. And people could identify with that. It's how I saw it. But there were many times I was like, Oh my God, do I really want to put that out there? This is kind of embarrassing, but I there plenty of times where I'm like, okay, just want to do it and edit.

Jeremy Lesniak:
Most of us as we train, we have a single perspective we have how it feels in the moment. You know, maybe we get to look back on photos. Maybe other people will tell stories years later, Oh, I remember the class or I remember the tournament or the test where XYZ happens. But it's still from this very subjective point of view. Obviously, you're editing the footage. So there's some subjectivity there. But the same time film doesn't lie. Ready, were there any moments where you were editing, watching footage go back through and saying, I remember that so differently.

David Liban:
Oh, my God. I mean, I would say all of it. I mean, what feels like a really intense bike in some of the testing footage that I gathered, going up for these various tests. I think it was purple belt, I first started being Spelman. So as going all the way through Shotokan, it was like purple, then there's three levels of brown, and then you go up for black. So I videotape all those tests, and then we have to spar in those tests. And in my mind, it was like, okay, this is pretty intense. Now, when I watch the pleasure, like, wow, that was pretty anemic. That was like, you get punched seemed like such a big problem you see, you know, see what it looks like, it didn't look like much, you know, because we are used to Hollywood, you know, punches and sound effects. And then when you get hit in real life, you know, unless in some dramatic, spinning back kick, it's not doesn't look all that precedent, you know, can do a lot of damage. But I would say that, you know, I really enjoyed Kata, and like, it was very helpful for me to see myself doing Kata, I feel like I got better by watching myself, and filling myself doing it that was extremely useful. And you know, and then of course, I can show the parts that I like, because I was editing it. No, but okay, when it came to sparring though, I thought that I needed to share truth about what I was actually doing and what I was capable of.

Jeremy Lesniak:
I don't think there's any better tool for your own personal development, especially with forms than or phones or video in general, just watching what we've done.

David Lisban:
Yes.

Jeremy Lesniak:
I've had people struggle to sometimes understand or even believed me, when I critique them on something and I say, fine, do it again, grab my phone, and I film them. And then I show them and they say, oh, and that's fixed, because now they're correlating how it feels to what the result is.

David Liban:
Yes.

Jeremy Lesniak:
It such a valuable, practically real time tool.

David Liban:
Yes. Like our Sensei will constantly correct the same thing that you're doing over and over in your mind you think I got it, I heard you, but your body isn't doing it because it's, you know, it's a force a habit at this point. So like to really change it up, you kind of have to slow down. Really think about the movement. And then by looking at it, you're like, Oh, I see. Okay, I get it. So it does help a great deal.

Jeremy Lesniak:
How do you think and I guess there are two ways that we could ask this. So I'll sort of give you both and I'll let you choose how you want to respond. You went through much of the process of your training, while making this video. You already said it impacted you, it impacted those around you. How do you think it would have been different? How are you different now than you would have been? Or how would you have been different versus where you are now, if you hadn't made this film?

David Liban:
I mean, I probably still would have gone forward to get my black belt to keep training because I really enjoyed it. In some ways, like the making of the film became a hassle to my training because I had to keep going and had to get camera guys to come and shoot me while I was going to classes and so in some ways, it was definitely a bother to do it but once it was over though, I am I really feel like it was a good document of who I am at that time. And the struggles I'm going through you know, like putting myself out there and allows you to allows me to reflect on who I am as a person and the kind of things that I want to do, and it isn't just about the physical, you know, that was a big part of as well. Karate and martial arts is so internal, that I think that is one of the biggest things I walked away with from it to whom I am as a person because of it is, you know, I have another film under my belt and you know, it's getting a little bit more play on Amazon now because, you know, if you watch Cobra Kai, I think it shows up as a recommended, you know, thing if you like that you'll like this. And so like I what’s really, really, really rewarding is I get emails from people all over the world or text message through ins through either Instagram or Messenger, from people all over the world, say, Hey, I just saw your film, I loved it, thank you so much. And because of you, I'm going to go back and do karate, or whatever their martial art is. And so like, it was really quite that to me is the best part of is like all these people from all over the world reaching out. And that, you know, that have inspired them to do the same to go back and try to do it, that I really love about. And so, you know, it's very gratifying to see that kind of thing.

Jeremy Lesniak:
I can relate to that. We, we get emails periodically from people saying, you know, I started listening to the show, and after a few months, I got up the confidence and went back or tried a new school or whatever, and I'm so thankful I did. And, you know, that makes it all worthwhile.

David Liban:
Yes.

Jeremy Lesniak:
You know, just all that investment of time and money and
energy. Know that it's inspiring someone else to do these things that you and I and so many others love. What's better than that?

David Liban:
Yeah, sure. You know, it's funny, because when you make a documentary, it's not like, you know, you're not going to get rich off of it, you know, documentaries, yeah, there was there wasn't going to be a financial payout, you know, so. But, you know, at the same point, you know, as a professor, um, you know, the pragmatic part of making a movie for me, is as Professor you have to make, or write or do something and then show that you're getting a certain amount audience or, you know, viewership or if you're, if you write books, certain kind of sales and that kind of thing. And so I you know, making the movie also allowed me to say, look, I did this thing, and it's getting these kind of views, it was reviewed in this magazine, it's on this channel, that kind of stuff. So like, there is like, you know, value to it for my career at that level. But really, it was more for me and not because of my job.

Jeremy Lesniak:
Got it. Any bloopers?

David Lisban:
Yeah, yeah.

Jeremy Lesniak:
Anything that. Yeah. Is there a blooper real with the movie? That's always one of my favorite parts of movies, especially if there’s an action scene.

David Liban:
Oh, you know what, there is a funny like, I cut this scene out of the movie. It's not a blooper. But it's a scene that I removed, I put it up on YouTube, it's up there, I could share a link with you. Where the idea was that I was, you know, I was going to have like, it was clearly staged, right. And so that we staged that I had a heart attack in the middle of the class, and my friends have like, dragged me away to the hospital. And so we did it by tongue in cheek, and it was meant to be funny, and it clearly looks fictional compared to everything else in the film. And I still think it's really funny. And I enjoy looking at that, you know, my friends are like, throwing me actually, they're my students from school, who are filmmakers the time and you know, they tried to pick me up and throw me in the car and Chino, who drives a stick, I don't drive a stick, you drive a stick. And so that's out there. And I also have some I interviewed a Master Okazaki before he passed, and so that some of that stuff didn't make it to the movie. And so I've got a whole story about how I think it's from Funakoshis cat, but he studied under Funakoshi. And then he tells a story about how like, you had to wait in a you have to wait. He showed up at the house and he was waiting for him to come out there. And this cat, Funakoshis cat was like sitting there and like, kind of kicks him away. And so like it's sort of like Funakoshi sort of knew it. And so he tells the story better than I do. I encourage you go look at that. But it's really funny. It's Funakoshis cat, you'll see Master Okazaki talking about that.

Jeremy Lesniak:
Nice. Yeah, if you could send over those links, we'll make sure that we get all the links.

David Lisban:
Yeah sure.

Jeremy Lesniak:
Just in case we have somebody listening who's new to the show, and maybe skipped over the intro. You know, we have show notes open and they're probably in your podcast player, but they're also at whistlekickmartialartsradio.com.

David Lisban:
For sure, I'll send you that.

Jeremy Lesniak:
That would be great.

David Liban:
And also, there's been cut some of the other stuff I cut out was like, you know, there was the legal ramifications of using Karate, or your martial art. And so yeah, wow, it was interesting. You know, it wasn't, didn't bring it wasn't about that story wasn't related to my story about trying to get the black belt before I turned 50. So you know, although I do delve into what it means to be a martial artist, some of that stuff just seemed extraneous to the to the main story. Keep it tighter?

Jeremy Lesniak:
Sure.

David Liban:
So I'll send you.

Jeremy Lesniak:
Please do, please do. Shoot that. And so what does your training look like now? And well, before? Let me ask you an important question did you achieve your showdown before 50?

David Liban:
So I'm going to give away, just give a spoiler to the movie.

Jeremy Lesniak:
Hey, that's up to you. That's up to you. I mean, spoiler alert. So, you know, if anybody doesn't, is gonna, and I hope people will watch the movie. But maybe skip ahead. 30 seconds.

David Liban:
So yeah, so I did not get my black belt at the end of the movie, like I failed my exam. And so what the movie ends on is mean, you know, having to retest, and I leave it there. And I thought it was and I had a lot of discussions, do I just keep making the movie until I pass? Because that's the expectation. People think like, well, that sucks. I wait, you know, I want to see if he got it or not. But the truth of it is, isn't about the black belt, then that was really what the whole message of the film was, it isn't the belt, you know. So I felt that that was more valuable than seeing me get my black belt, even though it's sort of disappointing to see me fail. Or get a retest, they don't like to use the word fail. But let's face it, I failed. But six months later, after I finished the film, I did get my black belt, I passed. And I have a there's a video out there also of me actually succeeding on the next test. So that's the question that I get from people when they email me, did you ever get your black belt? So now I have it I so I was in my 50s when I got in my year 50. But I did not get it before I turned 50.

Jeremy Lesniak:
Was that? I don't know what I ask. How did that feel?

David Liban:
Getting my black belt?

Jeremy Lesniak:
No, that you would kind of put out this goal? And you know, depending on how you look at it, it was either a target or you got really darn close because you shot from pretty far.  

David Liban:
Yeah.

Jeremy Lesniak:
Or maybe you didn't and I guess how you feel depends a lot on how you look at things, so I think we'll learn something about you as you answer.

David Liban:
I mean, I was disappointed obviously like it's very nerve wracking to go through these tests that happens. People evaluate you and they got a pencil on a clipboard to write things down, you know, it's, it was definitely a disappointment. But, you know, as far as the film was concerned, I felt that needed to be true to the movie like I turned 50 and I still haven't gotten it. And, you know, upon reflection and everything that you'll hear the Sensei’s say in the film. It doesn't matter. You know, it really doesn't because it's not like anything is going to, like, you know, balloons aren't going to fall out of the sky like, you know, the day you pass your showed on, you know, you're excited for you know, a day or two and then back in the dojo and it feels like you're starting from scratch again because now the expectations are higher. You know, so, I feel like it was a great learning experience, and also the fact that I didn’t pass really made me in a way value the scrutiny of my dojo and the people that run that club, because they're not just giving it away because you know you're, they feel bad for you or you know they have integrity, they say, okay, we'll give it to you when you earn it. You didn't earn it yeah you got to work on these things still and, and that gives me pleasure in knowing that I've achieved it I've gotten to that neck to that level, and there's more value to it than just giving it away. Yeah.

Jeremy Lesniak:
And so how about. Here's one, what would you now if you could go back and talk to you, let's say, as you were contemplating this documentary. What would you say to you then? Listeners know this is one of my favorite questions.

David Liban:
Don't bother trying to get distribution. There I try and just, you know, and I was hoping you know, when you're making a movie you have delusions of grandeur of is going to be the best thing ever. Oh, everyone's going to love this, and that's really important to actually complete the movie like you have to have that notion and otherwise it's very hard to for me to keep going. But I would probably tell myself that, you know, don't expect great things of it as far as you know, career changing at the same point. Just know that the film will have value to many people so just keep going. Don't be discouraged, don't worry about how you're being perceived by other people just do it because there's a lot of self doubt in making the film that, you know, that was struggled with more than the realities of making a movie it was just, you know, being beat up putting myself out there is, you know, a risky thing and as far as your ego is concerned, and so I would probably give myself a little bit of break with that.

Jeremy Lesniak:
What's your life look like outside of training and I guess I'm asking that because I'm wondering how this all fits together. You sound like a pretty busy guy, you've got family, you've got your career, you've got your training, and then somehow through that you said I'm also going to add in this movie which, as you said was, multiple years of a commitment.

David Liban:
Yes.

Jeremy Lesniak:
So give us some context.

David Liban:
So I am still making movies on this. And you asked earlier about where I am now with martial arts and so there is COVID and then I was also making I finished another film, just, it just was released in September of 20.

Jeremy Lesniak:
Oh wow.

David Liban:
And it's a science fiction drama which is on Amazon if anyone's interested, it's called a feral world. It's a coming of age story in a post apocalyptic world. And that was a huge project it was a five year endeavor. And so that cut into my martial arts quite a bit you know I had to like focus on that in my mind was that and so it was very difficult for me to like, stay engaged as much as I used to be. So, I was still for the first few years I was still training regularly. And then as I got to near completing it I honestly took off about eight, nine months. And so I've just recently started back. Once the dojo opened back up, you know, because the pandemic. And so I started back, so I was eight or nine months off. And I am now back in for about two months and I feel like my skills are starting to come back I'm starting to remember. Now there's definitely those first few weeks are really quite difficult. But, you know, so in the grand scheme of things that keeps me centered and I'm sure you hear this from a lot of people so because I am doing all these other things and I have students. I have faculty I work with and I'm making movies and I'm trying to do that. This is the one thing that we're like gets me out of my own head. And it's very important for me and I realized when I wasn't doing it, how much my psyche is not as healthy as when I am training. So, you know, by being away and making value and even that much more.

Jeremy Lesniak:
Are you going to keep making films? I mean is this.

David Liban:
Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Lesniak:
So what's the next one?

David Liban:
So I made it written a script, and I'm currently trying to do this one I'm trying to do a little bit less on the crowd funding kind of way. I'm trying to actually raise a budget and get known talent associated with it. And I'm getting a you know some feedback from film festivals who really liked the script and people are calling me and so we're in discussions and, you know, nothing has happened yet, you hear this, you know, making movies. Everyone tells you, oh yeah this is going to be the best thing ever. So you know until you're actually on set shooting in the money's in the bank it's all just pretend you know but this one is going to be a dark comedy, kind of like the Coen Brothers type film it's currently called Publish or Perish. And so that's what I have written that script then I'm hoping that we'll be able to shoot it. In June of 21, at least that's the idea and instead of spreading it out over four years, a feral world we shot it in four segments and so, kind of like that don't boyhood you get to see the lead character who it was 11 when we started he ended up being, you know 15 when we finished the film shooting the film. So you get to see him age over the course of the movie. We're not going to do that again we're going to do it all in one like, you know, in one month shooting period and then we'll now work on getting it distributed in that thing.

Jeremy Lesniak:
Any martial arts in that film?

David Liban:
Um, no, there isn't.

Jeremy Lesniak:
None?

David Liban:
I mean there's, I mean I there are some fights and there is some gun fighting and stuff like that but the guys that are doing the fighting are not martial artists they are old guys who don't know how to fight and there's been I'm imagining comedy in that because you know they can throw punches but they don't know what they're doing and I think I want to play it off is kind of like a kind of a sad altercation, you know.

Jeremy Lesniak:
I get it.

David Liban:
Yeah. You know I do take away like, and this is like the little sidetrack here but you know looking at movies where I do see martial arts. No, because I do know martial arts, and I do know, to some degree, how to protect myself, you know when you see like two people stand each other down and I'm sure you think the same thing as a martial artist, when somebody gets right in your face, and they look at you and they're like trying to intimidate you. The first thing that I goes, oh that's a bad move to get so close to me I'm going to tear you apart. You know, like they try to intimidate you but like if you know martial arts that's the last thing you want to do, get into their space like that.

Jeremy Lesniak:
Most martial artists aren't going to just stand there and let them step up. Oh, we're going to keep some distance there's going to be some shifting. Yeah, it's really interesting in fact we were recording a Thursday episode earlier. Talking about firearms of all things, and how so much of what we think about when we train. And what we see in films, and how we trained to handle firearms respond to them as in a self defense context, how it doesn't all jive right. It's all these interesting different perspectives, you know, most fight scenes in martial arts in non martial arts films anyway, have no reality to the psychology on how they start you know like you just said, you know, to people getting in each other's faces that doesn't happen a whole lot.

David Liban:
I dare. (49:04)

Jeremy Lesniak:
Get close enough that you can't see where my foots going to go next. You know.

David Liban:
Where, anything. I got all kinds of my disposal.

Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah, he's nice.

David Liban:
No. So like I look at some movies where I like a movie. Have you ever seen the movie collateral, with Tom Cruise.

Jeremy Lesniak:
Yes.

David Liban:
So like that kind of like the martial arts in that movie are very realistic to me it's just like bam, move on, like, just broke your knee I'm not going to stand around and do any spinning five kicks, that just did that I'm moving forward, like that to me struck me there. It was pretty reality based I mean granted it was dramatize and over the top in a lot of ways, but I felt like that was a pretty authentic design the choreography of those fight sequences.

Jeremy Lesniak:
I generally ask folks involved in the film industry, about their favorite martial arts films and favorite actors. And I want to add a third piece and you can answer these in any order. Do you have any desire to direct choreograph any, any of these more, let's say traditional martial arts film elements that martial artists often go on to work on.

David Liban:
I would love to have that experience but to be perfectly honest, I would need to collaborate with a fight choreographer like that, I would say my strong suit as a director is really about getting people's performance to be, you know, to be authentic. So, you know, I would surround myself with the right choreographers who know how to do this sort of thing and you know we would have discussions on, you know, what do you want it to be like really crazy over the top or do you want it to be more realistic or, you know, once you identify the tone that you're going for, then you design the kind of fight sequences that are out there like John Wick for example, like I love those movies you know they're crazy dumb, but like they're so fun you know like I love that kind of thing. So I don't you know truthfully, I don't know if that's in my wheelhouse. You know, I would love to have that opportunity but I think you know where I am in my career I think it's more likely for me to do, you know, drama and comedy, as opposed to doing martial arts film but if somebody came to me and said, let's do this. I would know how to surround myself with the right people to get it done.

Jeremy Lesniak:
Nice. That makes sense, I get it. And let's, let's turn our eyes forward in a non film way, what are your martial arts schools?

David Liban:
You know that's a great question because I have just been thinking a lot about that recently so now I'm two months back in after my time off, and I'm starting to feel a thing start click again. And I have my I have a little bit more ability to maintain and keep going forward. You know I'd say I'm still a showed on I think giving myself goals is really helpful. I don't think having a next level of belt is going to change my life in any way, except it gives me something to strive for. So I would like to, you know, work on getting my need on, and I think I was getting really close to doing that before I dropped out of it. And so I just have to kind of build back up there. So it would be really just to get back to that level. And then one day I think I would enjoy teaching karate. But it's that's not a really driving force for me it's like I'd say I want to just be good at it again and you know be in that headspace and think I enjoy like doing Kata forms you know I enjoy like imagining what these moves actually represent and what they're supposed to be and the more you do it, the better you get at it and so it's just really great to kind of be in that world. So yeah.

Jeremy Lesniak:
I get it.

David Liban:
Roundabout answer.

Jeremy Lesniak:
I get it. No hey, there are rarely straight path answers on martial arts. Things I love about the show because you know it's not the destination it's the journey right so I can ask you a question you might get there in a convoluted way but we get so much good stuff. As we go and I love that.

David Liban:
For sure. Yeah.

Jeremy Lesniak:
Well, if people want to check out the films that you've made or social media, email, like, what, what are the relevant addresses for folks.

David Liban:
So if you want to see Mr. Miyagi by looking for Mr. Miyagi. You can find that on Amazon, it's there. Just, you'll get when you start typing looking for mystery will come up, looking for Mr. Good look good bars so you just got to keep putting in that M, but it's there. If you want or if you want it to get it online you can find it, Mr. Miyagi.net. And then as far as my other movies, a federal world, that one is on Amazon and iTunes and a bunch of other places as well. And then as far as if they just wanted to reach out to me. If you went to a federalworld.net. There's an email link there and I'd be happy to entertain any questions or comments or whatever.

Jeremy Lesniak:
I appreciate you being here, and again to listeners we're going to link all that stuff in the show notes. And I've got one final thing for you one final, I guess, question. And that is, what are your final words you know what you want to leave the listeners with today as we fade to the outro.

David Liban:
Just keep training. I think I kind of covered it all, you know, but I would really say that, you know, find the meaning in what it is that you do. Why do you do karate? Why do you do martial arts and you know what I have found that it really expands way beyond just the training. One of the things that struck me is when I was when I was preparing to make my documentary, looking for Mr. Miyagi, and I brought my, my, the treatment the paperwork to my sensei and say hey look I'm looking thing about making this movie, and I'd written up this document and talking about the goals and what I hope to get out of it and all that kind of stuff. And he said he looked at the document he goes, this is karate, and I didn't really get it at the time. And then the more I thought about it. It was that karate is, you know, a word, but martial arts and is really, you know, seeking, you know, seek seeking perfection and you know like that, you know, trying to improve yourself, do, do good work and just keep on training and thinking about you the kind of life you want to live.

Jeremy Lesniak:
I know how challenging it can be to put myself out there. I know that one of the most critical demographics in the world is martial artists, when they get hold of video of other martial artists doing martial arts. So the idea that David would film himself, working towards his black belt shows a level of confidence, and passion that I think is utterly powerful, I am moved by this. And if you haven't checked out the film. If you haven't checked out his websites and what he's got going on I hope you will. As you know, I'm a supporter of any content around martial arts, whether it's someone else with podcast or films or books, whatever it is. I want more martial arts content out there because I think that's how we reach both martial artists and non martial arts. It's no small feet, to make any kind of film. So I applaud the effort. And I thank him for the efforts. Thank you, David. And thanks for coming on the show. Head on over to whistlekickmartialartsradio.com for the show notes. All the different links that we talked about today, in every episode remember it's got a page all by itself, you can leave comments and check out all the other things that we've got going there sign up for the newsletter, all that good stuff. And if you want to support us and the work that we do. You've got lots of options you could make a purchase. You could tell a friend. You could contribute to the Patreon patreon.com/whistle kick. If you see somebody on the world with someone whistle kick on it, maybe pair of sweat pants, or hat or something like that. Say hi, introduce yourself. We are a growing community. And remember, we have more that binds us than divides us. We are all martial artists. If you have feedback for me, email me, Jeremy@whistlekick.com. That's it for now. Until next time train hard smile, and have a great day.