Episode 294 - Grandmaster John Graham
Grandmaster John Graham is a multi-disciplined martial arts practitioner and instructor from Alabama.
Grandmaster John Graham - Episode 294
Having served in the military and police force most of his life, martial arts has taught him how to be non-violent and not the other way around. Grandmaster John Graham was a boxer when he joined the military but he, later on, went into martial arts after he saw a class in a military office. From then on, Grandmaster John Graham has practiced several disciplines including karate and kung fu. Grandmaster Graham is one of the closest people to Joe Lewis and Superfoot Bill Wallace and he's told us some of the most interesting stories about their friendship. Grandmaster Graham's passion for service and martial arts is truly inspiring. Listen to find out more!
Show Notes
Grandmaster John Graham
On this episode, we mentioned:Joe Lewis, Bill "Superfoot" Wallace, Terry DowGrandmaster John Graham's Youtube:https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCCsVA5mAbbPkxIx8JnL_13A/videos
Show
Transcript
You can read the transcript below or download here.
What's going on this is whistlekick martial arts radio episode 294, yeah, we're knocking on episode 300 but we're here today to speak with GM John Graham. If you're new to the show you might wanna head on over to our website whistlekickmartialartsradio.com where you can find show notes photos videos, this episode has some of both that will help give you more context into the lives of the people that we get to talk to. If you wanna check out the products that we make whether those are web products like our free martial arts calendar.com or some of the sparring gear the apparel that we make you can find all of that links to everything that we do at our digital home whistlekick.com and I hope you'll check that out, you can sign up for the newsletter there's so much more going on over there and we take way too long for me to tell you about all of it so just go just check it out please please. Alright enough of that let's talk about today's guest. I've known GM Graham a little bit but for a couple years now because of my involvement with the Superfoot Bill Wallace organization. GM Graham is an amazing martial artist I’ve really enjoyed getting to know him, his skill is nothing short of incredible and he is one of the few that has had the honor of training with both GM Wallace, GM Joe Lewis as well as bringing in a traditional Chinese background that's all given him quite a bit of context not only for martial arts but for life and we talk about both of those in depth. It goes deep at times it gets emotional and it's really a wonderful episode, a conversation I’ve thoroughly enjoyed so I hope you will enjoy it as well. Here we go GM Graham welcome to whistlekick martial arts radio.
John Graham:
Thank you very much Jeremy and I had a great time with you at Terry's symposium and I thought it was an excellent excellent venue and everyone I'm hearing about the brotherhood and how everyone worked towards a common goal that was actualization of their martial arts goals, so it was a wonderful weekend.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah, he does put on a great event so listeners what GM Graham was referring to is Master Dow's Terry Dow who has come up in conversation on here quite a bit the man who works directly with me on the Superfoot kickboxing stuff he had an event a couple of weeks ago and it was the first time I had seen you in a little while I think I hadn't seen you since we were down at your school last year.
John Graham:
Yeah well, I got snowed out last time so I couldn't get there because of the snow last year.
Jeremy Lesniak:
That's right because you are coming from?
John Graham:
Mobile Alabama as we call it down here LA. Lower Alabama.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I had a great time and you know one of the things cause people ask me cause I don't know a lot of people who have been to Alabama so they would ask me what was Alabama like? And the thing that struck me the most was here I am I'm driving around in my rental car and I don't quite know where I'm going you know I’ve got GPS and it's more or less taking me where I'm going but of course when you're not sure exactly where you're going no you don't I don't know about you I don't tend to push the speed limit you know I'm generally driving a little slower sometimes I'm in the left lane when I should be in the right lane and not a single person was right in my butt or hoking at me everybody was so nice despite my complete ineptitude driving in an area I didn't know.
John Graham:
That's what we do and also there's a line 04:09 easy I mean there's everybody leaves a gap if you're 04:13 access road they'll leave a gap between the access road and you so you can just pull right in the line I mean it's southern hospitality.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah it was it was really nice I have to say I’ve lived in New England my whole life, I’ve done a fair amount of traveling but I haven't been anywhere like this and yeah you know very low stressed it was great.
John Graham:
Yeah this is lower pace of living I would think, yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
That's for sure. You do that up here and you know you getting flipped off and people are on your butt and you know you do it the wrong part of town you know various cities wrong time of night you know it might turn into something even.
John Graham:
Well, yeah, we're pretty cool down here down south everybody has a gun and you could see shot guns in the rear of trucks cause everybody hunts it's kind of an if you pull over a car though in that area everybody's gonna have a gun so you're like I'd better not do that. We are a gun state and not many shootings because of that.
Jeremy Lesniak:
We're not going to go there we try to keep politics out of the show, you and I are like minded in that but there's enough cause I get enough not about a ton of hate mail you know let's keep this a reprieve from some of the topical subjects.
John Graham:
Sure. That are coming up.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Now you mentioned pulling over so this is a good opportunity that in addition to being a martial artist we're gonna talk about that, you've been involved in law enforcement?
John Graham:
Yeah, I was 21 years and 06:06 police department and achieve the rank of lieutenant which is a unit commander and I commanded the pros and a detective division juvenile while I was a lieutenant and a sergeant I was in burglary and major crimes and did stints in training where I was teaching self-defense so I got those different aspects of police work which is quite unresting especially in investigation part.
Jeremy Lesniak:
What was interesting about that?
John Graham:
Well I mean when you look at a crime scene it tells you a story kinda like a form you know and so you have to get into the form like you have to get into the crime scene to so it'll tell you what it is why it is and why it happened and all the evidence points towards the reasoning just like when you do a form so you have to dissect the crime scene and the perpetrators motives and things like that so like you would do why did this guy create the form this way why did the ancestors do it in a particular mode well we do that in a police work too, same thing. So, it's analyzation of human nature.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Now of course there is quite a bit of synergy between martial arts and law enforcement I’ve known a lot of martial artist that become law enforcement officers and a lot of law enforcement officers that you know they get some of their basic hand to hand trainings some of their self-defense and they find that they really enjoy it and they become martial artists. Other than you know the obvious the physical this kinda raw similarity between you know the need to use your hands in both disciplines what are some of the similarities, is there more to it than just that? Cause you know I’ve never been a law enforcement officer but just hearing the way you and some of the other folks that I know have spoken about law enforcement it remind me of martial arts.
John Graham:
We’ll let me say this there is a rule of conduct that a law enforcement officer has to maintain ie in other words when a threat is discontinued we must discontinue force no matter what is said to us or if the guy may even escalate force one second after he escalates we have to be aware of that we're in the martial arts if you get attacked and you're not a police officer you just do what you need to do so you can go home where we do the same thing but we're held to higher standard when it comes to combat that in particular hand to hand. I got 09:10 up one time because I actually used my hand and broke my knuckle and my sergeant wrote me up cause I didn't use my knife stick damage city property as they said in the write up. So it is a higher different standard you know and there's if you look at it as far as you have 09:35 your mere presence is forced and then verbal and then soft hand hard hand applications of different you know gas then you have 09:50 you have knife stick and then you have deadly force so we have to go through all those continuance of force whereas in a combat situation outside of law enforcement it can go from here to there in a blink of a second and you don't have anything that you have to worry about you just do it, the right you know and hopefully you don't get charged or whatever so there is a whole line of things that we had to think about before we get anything.
Jeremy Lesniak:
That's a pretty interesting comparison you know one that I'm gonna suspect most people listening hadn't considered you know as martial artists we are civilians and despite the I think the myth is starting to fade the idea that once we reach black belt we have to register ourselves as a deadly weapon, obviously isn't true we are civilians with skill and maybe in a court you know there are times we might be seen as having had a little bit more responsibility because of our skill but it is legally different for you as a law enforcement officer.
John Graham:
Yeah absolutely, absolutely I have to justify even my verbal comments so you know if my verbal comments escalate force then I have to justify that so it is a totally different world when you're talking about a black belt or second third degree getting to a confrontation somewhere and he has the legs we take 11:28 you don't have to put up with that kind of behavior but we are if you 11:35 supposed to hurt my feelings it's not even supposed to bother me because it's part of my job being cussed at so that if you somebody might walk up to you and say Jeremy you're an !@#$@%^@&$&$ and 11:49 in your face you do something well we can't we just have to say yes sir yes sir I understand your feelings and okay that's fine let it go so it takes a whole lot of self-discipline and self-preservation at the same time cause at the same time I'm checking your hands out I'm checking your bleeding of your body, I'm checking the tone I'm seeing if you're making any kind of aggressive move as you're saying what you're saying or are just you running your mouth right? But you don't have to put up with that, you can just say you felt threatened and go for it.
Jeremy Lesniak:
How has that position that responsibility that legal requirement changed your martial arts?
John Graham:
Well it in my particular mindset is that I believe it or not I'm not violent so I don't I don't think it's changed me and it's just made me more responsible and more tolerant of people who have a tendency to wanna you know start some trouble I remember I was riding in my police car was 13:14 so I was going down a road called 13:18 and these kids got beside me and they were doing the flip ball thing and 13:22 I don't know what ideas but anyway they started a fight and I had my police shirt off and I was sergeant at the time so first thing I did is I just picked up my shot gun and then I picked up my shirt 13:35 and I went and I rolled my window down I said do you really want this trouble and they said 13:41 just took off, it was something out of a movie ad but it really happened so you know what I mean had I not been who I was I think 13:56 will come and try to hurt me you know so, that's the way it is and well most everywhere they don't wanna mess with the police if they can.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Generally, a bad idea you're probably not going home if you do and one way or the other you're probably not going home.
John Graham:
Yeah 14:20 if I have to put my hands on you you're going to jail.
Jeremy Lesniak:
How'd you get started in the martial arts? We're kinda flipping this today.
John Graham:
Yeah I was a boxer at age 14 15 in Mobile Alabama and so I went in to Marines at 17 I put high school my father basically told me 14:45 which is a home for wayward boys where the military I tried to go in the army cause I was kinda scared of the marine but they wouldn't take me because they said I needed to go back in high school and finish high school and the marine said we got you so I left that same day for boot camp and went up to Montgomery and failed my test to go in the marines, I'm still color blind so they put a code on me and sent me to Jackson Mississippi where the lady said in front of the bubbles I got these bubbles and she did she did her fingers down three two I said 32 and she went through it like that she goes you're 15:26 are great welcome to the US military and then I went straight to 15:32 island from there never returned home for quite a while and it was a life changing experience going to marine corps in 1970 so it was something I needed and it was something that I was proud I did that I went into marines because once a marine always a marine you have that sense of pride and sense of camaraderie we still have reunions some of the guys that I worked with in London back in the early 70s we meet up once a year so I mean that's the kind of brotherhood you get. Like the martial arts it's so much like marines is so much like the martial arts it's a family and I have a brother martial artist that I'm closer to than my own brothers and sisters and that's fine with me you know that's the way I think martial arts is and should be because we do share a common goal which is a love for movement and application and expression through movement, that's what I think martial arts is.
Jeremy Lesniak:
That expression piece is one that's often not discussed, tell us a bit more about what you mean there.
John Graham:
Well whenever I do like let's say I'm doing a Joe Lewis module, you could be 38 you could be whatever if I just walked through it and just kinda do the movements and I don't have any intention or any spirit behind it warrior spirit behind it then it's just movement it's just 17:18 in the air but when I put my emotional intent behind it with a the spirit of a warrior and survival behind it now the techniques become much much more full they become something that someone has to deal with and so that's what I mean by that a personal expression and professionally in kung fu forms we have that need to express what the creator of the form did was he trying to work on rhythm was he trying to work on angles what was he trying to decipher though fighting what was it? And how do you attach yourself to his way of thinking so that you can decipher what he was trying to do you know I'm as Joe Lewis used to say I'm a student first and once in a while, just every once in a while, a master but more a student of movement. I love to watch ballet. It just intrigues me the way that they move and the flow and how they use their legs and their arms to create different flow of energy I just absolutely love watching that.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Alright so I think we've gotten a little bit side tracked I mean which is great a hallmark of the show these tangents. Now you went into the service and how did that when did kung fu start for you?
John Graham:
Well I walked into a 18:57 and saw these guys doing an art called shobakan which is an offshoot of Shotokan and every kind of add on or 19:14 went oh my gosh you're home this is who you are this is where you've been led to go and ever since that day I’ve never stopped it's just been one beautiful journey after another of no one knew John Graham is and his weakness is his strengths I’ve been trying to work on my strengths rather than my weaknesses and then get people around me that have that so, that's when I started I just walked in in there and I knew that I knew that I knew that that is was my life pursuit.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Had you ever felt that feeling before?
John Graham:
No, no I did not even when I was a football player I know 20:02 fairly good one apparently but when I walked into that room and saw that my whole and I tell you my whole mind heart and everything just came into alignment and I go that's me, that's what I'm supposed to do this is my path and I haven't veered from it in 50years.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I wanna put that moment in a bit of context because it's something that comes up on the show and not everyone has that experience you know some of us start really young and you know we don't have the life experience to be able to look at traditional martial arts and say yes this is something I wanna do, this is something I belong in, you know it's something that is maybe we have a choice but oftentimes the choice is presented as here's this fun thing that you could do so I'm always intrigued with people who came to martial arts as adults what had your experience or I guess your knowledge of traditional martial arts been prior to walking into that school.
John Graham:
None I was a boxer.
Jeremy Lesniak:
You hadn't watched any movies you know you weren't a big Billy Jack fan or something like that?
John Graham:
Oh, it was way before Billy Jack. The Green Hornet had just started and I thought Bruce Lee I thought all that stuff was fake and stage I didn't know human being could really do that kind of stuff you know we didn't have any martial arts and mobile at the time I think there was maybe a judo class at the YMCA maybe but you know I don't nobody knew about it if there was so we have a fairly big boxing community in Mobile so everybody that won at that kind of pugilistic training would go to boxing so I just walked in there and I saw these guys kicking and doing these blocks and breathing and is moving and they're mental focus and it was just wow that is amazing to watch these human these guys these people these human beings do something that in my mind was almost superman-ish you know kicking that high and breaking boards and doing all the things cause it was a demonstration, they were breaking boards and doing a lot of self-defense thing and I was like whoa that's me. That's how it happened you know and it's one of those things that you know when I guess a person picks up a pen and they start to write and the story writes itself in front of them and they say I don't know I just put the pen to paper and it wrote itself like Stallone did when he wrote Rocky, that's the way I felt, I just knew that I knew that this journey was my journey in the life that I was given.
Jeremy Lesniak:
What do the next few months look like you've walked into this school, it's completely resonated for you this is the place that you need to be I believe were your words so what did your training become did you start immediately and throw yourself at it and?
John Graham:
Yeah, and the guys said sit in the corner I said Ok, they said the next 2 weeks you'd put me in a horse stance and then the next 2 weeks he taught me how to do the you know the karate punch and then 2 weeks after that, back in the day people 23:45 run you off you know it was to see if you had to stick to it and this stuff stay so and he told me I'd never be a black belt you know I didn't have the stretch and why am I wasting his time and all this stuff like that and I'm like 24:03 you don't make that choice for me I'm gonna stay and then that guy got transferred out in a kind of a nicer 24:11 to the USO and you know I stayed with him then they got transferred somewhere else in the marine corps and met another really good instructor and but you know he couldn't run me off cause I knew that that was what I was supposed to do and if that's how I got there standing in a stance in a horse stance well that's 24:33 do and that was it you know, it wasn't any choice anymore because I knew that I knew that I knew.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And you said that was the first couple of weeks so what are the next you know what did it look like after that.
John Graham:
Well then I had to stand in a horse stance `and throw punches and then for another month I did upper blocks and then I had to just stand it's in kosa dachi stance the forward leaning stance and just stay up not even punching do that so it was like 6 months of I learned that horse stance, forward leaning stance, reverse punch and an upper block and that was it and the classes were an hour and a half and we did a whole lot of calisthenics and things like that and I don't know if he did know how to teach I mean it was so it was 1971 so yeah I didn't you know it was all kinda new back then it was a navy guy and I was in the marines and you know the navy and marine corps are back then we weren't all that friendly towards each other but it didn't bother me but I guess it's I don't know if it bothered him but it was just one of those thing that you know other people would come in and they had been training before and they would just they'd learn all other stuff, I had to teach myself to practice just by watching them cause I was just standing there and I would learn them that way so you know I think what it did was for me it just created a resolve it created a stubbornness inside of me that 26:19 I'm gonna do this and there's nobody that's gonna stop me and I'm not gonna take rejection you know cause I'm I’ve done 26:27 and I’ve done like 13 movies and I’ve been turned down out of about 50 of them before I did the 13 so you know rejection is part of acting and that particular thing so I you know so I was you know I didn't care how many times he reject me I'm still gonna be here and I'm still gonna learn what you've got to offer and that's the way I’ve always done it. I was lucky to go to a camp in June where they had the martial arts like crazy and then I went on a ship and then we went to Charles then when they had martial arts everybody getting martial arts in the navy and marine corps back then and so it was a community and it was a lot better so I'm glad I didn't wasn't ran off and like I said he couldn't run me off that wasn't on the table for me.
Jeremy Lesniak:
So you start out with this, karate with this sort of Shotokan derivative as you called it what were some of the things that you study cause I'm getting the sense that as you're moving around you're being exposed to different arts and you know I'm I know you a bit now and I know you as a rather diverse martial artist so I'm going to guess that it was through that moving around that those seeds were planted for being open to so many different things, yep I studied have a brown belt in 27:55 which is a hybrid art out of Japan.
John Graham:
I have a brown belt in kempo a black belt in kyokushin 28:11 a second degree in k e n p o and then I studied shaolin wuzu quan I was studying with Steve Morris who was the chief instructor of the goju ryu who have a 28:33 and this Chinese guy was coming to town and I just walked by this magazine rack and so you know Chinese GM coming to London so I said hmm that was 1974 and I’ve been trying a few years I went 28:49 and so they invited me to the house and he was about 53 years old and I thought just you know and I'm 21 at the time been training a few years so they said you know you're strong karate guy throw a punch and so I threw a punch at him and he slammed me against the wall with his fingers and I was like what the heck so I told him I wasn't ready and he just laughed the next thing I know my head is on his toe on his big toe and he just popped me in the nose with it got up and said and told him this is the translator I like this guy, he doesn't take no for an answer and he doesn't and he 29:27 to beat wants us to prove that we know what we're doing not just accept it so then I studied started studying kung fu at that point in time that was '74 Shaolin wuzu quan and I knew that it was the father of karate I just knew it because I’ve studied those 5 different karate forms and had never been taught out of China I was the first group to learn it in London because that was a you had to be pure Chinese to learn wuzu quan and was called 5 ancestors and our GM who's living in Malaysia wasn't under the same rules at the gms in China and the ones in the United States wouldn't teach anybody that weren't pure Chinese so he kinda broke the mold and started teaching us guys and to make the long story short I became a disciple of his and the adopted son and stayed with him for years and year about 27 years before he died and I was in London and I watched Bill Wallace beat up the guy from Germany and the Brits were going well you know he's supposed to kick so fast 30:42 well GM Wallace knocked the guy out within seconds right and I told my marine corps bodies who was watching with me I said I'm gonna meet him one day and I will be one of his students and I'm gonna teach with him and they went man you're so full of crap well actually one of the guys that was in London moved to Mobile right down the road and told Wallace the story and that was and he came 31:12 1988 Bill and I met and I started studying 31:19 and then right after that I started studying with Joe, Joe Lewis was down here too. But my whole deal was I wanted to learn there was something about Bill Wallace the way he moves, the way he addressed situations in the ring and just his mythology is what I wanted to learn so I’ve been an avid student of his for that many years and then obviously Joe Lewis as well so but I still kept my kung fu going and when they started the International Organization in 1990 I started going to China and I’ve been going there ever since and the Chinese I was voted the 11th president which was I got voted vice president and they said look we can't vote you president because it's a totally Chinese organization and you obviously aren't Chinese so and I went well that's true so all of the countries got together and said you know John does our wuzu quan and we want him to become president so it happened I was the 11th president the first ever non-Chinese to be voted and take over a Chinese organization that was in the 20th anniversary which was a huge one and we got to I got to open up a sports center and was actually part of the Chinese government for the time I was over there and then after that they said okay all presidents are promoted to GM 32:57 Beijing won't let us so they went to Beijing and everybody dahdadadah and to make the long story short I was 33:06 the 10th Dan a year later by the Chinese government I was a 9th at the time and so that's how I got my 1o0h degree from the Chinese Government I guess the right time at the right place you know had it been 30 years earlier that wouldn't happen.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Did you feel a sense a different sense of response hmm it's a wrong way to ask the question what was it like being that first non-Chinese president and trusted with something that not only mattered to you but there's so many others?
John Graham:
You know it was an honor and a responsibility that I knew that I could that I wanted to do and I wanted to make sure that people that came before us were honored and that we didn't forget them and so it was to me it was an honor and a responsibility you know so I took it head on an you know and like this year I'm going back to the Philippines we're having a big meet in the Philippines I go every year and it's just they're they've all become like brothers to me it's fun I mean it's just and I even went over there one time and they had a they were gonna teach kung fu to the schools over there and I was asked to go with the board of education and a bunch of kung fu masters well 7 of us and I’ve got it on film where I was giving input into how to teach on in China to the Chinese kids kung fu which was a weird thing for me to be doing but they asked me to do it so I did it and it was really kinda cool so they don't look at me now as anything other than a brother and I’ve noticed that with the martial arts no ethnicity, or religion none of that matters when you have a common goal and a common cause that over rides all that ignorance that some other people have that we in the martial arts put aside.
Jeremy Lesniak:
So here we are we have a pretty good context about who you are, we've heard about your origin story the beginnings in martial arts and by the time military and the law enforcement constructed a pretty good platform and we've taken some steps we've heard some stories from you but I'm going to ask for a story specifically if you had to give a speech or something kinda what you're doing now I guess and present your favorite martial arts story from your time, what story would that be?
John Graham:
I think my actual favorite one was is when I met Master Chi and then my when how he kinda just twisted my hand and put me on the ground that was amazing to me that you could accept somebody's forward motion and divert it in the way that unbalanced on and do it without much effort because you know I was used to banging arms and banging you know the Shotokan type of stuff in the goju so that's one of my favorite stories but another one is when I was sparring with Bill Wallace at I wasn't sparring with him we were working out I don't spar with Bill Wallace and he kept hitting me with a hook kick so I said do it again do it again, do it again and then finally I said I can't see and he leaned over and kissed me on the forehead and said you're not supposed to and just giggled and I went yes sir, that was it and another funny one was when I tested for my 6th with Joe Lewis he pounded me so hard that my wife had to help me out of the car for 2 days I mean my absolute insides were like Jello but I did the rounds with a champ you know and hung in there with him I wouldn't now call it hang in there with him he mercifully didn't kill me but that was such an honor to glove up and work in that situation and have him promote me to 6th degree after beating snot out of me and checking out my checking my oil I guess you could say but it was amazing it was amazing I wouldn't trade those 2 buck weapons for nothing.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Now here you just kinda told two anecdotes, one about Bill Wallace, one about Joe Lewis really opposite ends of the spectrum and 2 man that I know have been tremendously influential not only on your career your time in the martial arts mine so many other people that we know in common people that we don't I'm sure a lot of the listeners out there looked to one of both of those gentlemen as inspirations in their martial arts training but one of the things that we don't talk about much on the show is the fact that they were amazing friends best friends despite being philosophically like that so different and I'm wondering because you knew both of them well could you speak to that?
John Graham:
You know I sure can and I really appreciate you asking me that, Bill Wallace is great as a fighter that he is today and was during his career always looked at Joe because he started 8 months earlier as his senior and always treated him that way they were brothers they would if you ever had them at a seminar together the whole time you're laughing they're playing off each other. They knew each other's thought they were that close in fact the word seminar Joe Lewis created back it didn't have such things back in the day so and him and Bill Wallace did seminars all over the world together. They did 10 or 11 here at my school and every weekend they together so it's a when we put together the Superfoot Joe Lewis organization I challenged anybody that finds anyone to train as much and watch Joe Lewis more than Bill Wallace. Bill has a love for Joe as a brother loves a brother and it is shown in his respect and his honor and him desiring to keep Joe's legacy alive and moving towards 40:32 as his legend should as well but again there is Bill Wallace putting somebody else Bill Wallace don't have to do that he dies’ have to say anything about anybody cause he's Bill Wallace but that's not Bill, Bill says I want to make sure that my brother my friend my is almost like soul mate if you don't try to get that I wanna make sure his legacy stays alive as well as mine with me and that kind of love is amazing to me I mean and it's out of love that he's doing it because he doesn’t have to so the new Superfoot Joe Lewis organization is one that was created out of love for Joe Lewis and we're all Joe Lewis guys but we're also Superfoot guys so the whole organization is a commitment to 2 of the greatest fighters I’ve ever seen and I’ve been to Japan I’ve been to Okinawa I’ve been all over Europe and I’ve a whole lot of people from 41:48 I mean all of them you just don't see those type A personality those forces of nature that can come together in the brotherhood that they have and that in itself is amazing. That's my take on it.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah yeah and of course I'm fortunate enough most of the listeners know unless you knew of course the listeners know that I’ve been fortunate enough to I have not only met Bill Wallace but get to train with all of you and they kinda pulled into the organization and there are days when I wake up and I still had a hard time believing that this has happened. But I’ve come to understand a bit of the way that Bill looks at Joe, one of the things that I'm not familiar with that I'd love to hear from you cause I can't think of anyone better to ask this question, how did Joe look at Bill?
John Graham:
Oh my gosh. He looked at Wallace as a phenomenon he really did. Now whenever I spoke about cause Joe would stay, GM Lewis would stay in our house, quite a lot and now that 43:06 but he would stay with me you know coming early leave late and we would talk about you know and I remember not to digress but I remember one day he was I have a 2 storey house so he was he looked down at me and he just 43:23 and Bruce Lee and he says you wanna know the story about Bruce Lee and I said does a bear use a bathroom in the woods, he said on a regular basis I said yes sir so I asked my wife to stay in the kitchen and so she would listen and during the conversation about Bruce Lee, Wallace would always come up so you know it would come up you know what you know Joe did it Bruce Lee did this way and then Bill would do it this way and then you know so he always had this Bill's abilities as being something that he not inspire to be like but he saw as almost superhuman the way that Wallace did what he did right? And it was never a jealousy and there wasn't a time where he would ever you know like some guys would go you know well Wallace is a good kicker but he can't take a punch. I never heard him say anything other than wonderful things about Bill and about his humor and how they would get together and banter off each other at a seminar. I don't know Jeremy if you ever got to train with both of them at the same time?
Jeremy Lesniak:
I didn't.
John Graham:
But you couldn't help but laugh I mean you'll learn so much and Wallace would come on the floor and just mess up Joe's seminar right and then of course you know there was Joe and he would do the same thing to him but they were both putting up points together and ideas and playing off the concepts of fighting in a humorous way that brought out different views if you can understand what I'm saying.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Absolutely.
John Graham:
And it was amazing to see these two champions communicate through movement and put their egos aside and I got pictured of Bill put his head on Joe's shoulder and then you know and Joe had Bill kissing him on the cheek and vice versa I mean it was one of those I don't know how to say it other than Wallace and Lewis were Abbott and Costello they were Dean Martin and Jerry Lewis they were a team, inseparable by egos and by technique, does that make sense?
Jeremy Lesniak:
It does and that you know I’ve had the good fortune to speak with a number of people who knew both gentlemen probably not I'm gonna guess I haven't spoken to anyone who knew both of them as long as you have and one of the things that I regret is that you know I will never have been able to train with Joe Lewis personally but in being able to train with folks like GM Wallace and yourself you know I'm able to construct a bit of a picture that you know 46:40 things that I’ve of course read and seen but I don't think I’ve ever heard a more succinct more I suspect accurate description of the two of them as what you just said, that's pretty powerful stuff.
John Graham:
Well I want the listeners to know this that who I am and the way I view martial arts even though I love my Chinese teacher cause he was like a father to me, those two gentleman have given me more opportunities, more pep talks more making me feel important and loved and cared about I'm getting a little emotional here hold on, than even my own father and when you get that kind of love from somebody who is at their level and you know that they're sincere it's amazing Jeremy and I was so blessed to have that from both of them. I lost a dear dear friend when he died and a mentor and a guy that I look up to and he would sit at my house and we would just tell jokes and we'd just be two old marines sitting around and then we start doing martial arts it was just amazing I don't know man I'm so blessed. I don't know how to say it other than you know there's sometimes God puts his hands in places you know and he blessed me with those 2 men in my life that helped me through a lot of things that I was going through as a young police officer they were there for me. In fact, they both went on a ride along with me when I was a sergeant.
Jeremy Lesniak:
What was that like?
John Graham:
Oh hilarious, hilarious. 48:41 you 2 shut the hell up I'm trying to listen to my radio I got man I got to take care of oh it was freaking crazy fun you know golly it was just and then Joe rode with me a couple times when Bill wasn't down here you know he's come then Bill wasn't here then vice versa and then they'd come together. Joe would call me I'm coming to town in 4 days I need a seminar and I put together a seminar for him and we'd have a great time and he 49:20 point and 49:21 yeah let's go and he'd jump in I'd get permission from my lieutenant cause I was 49:26 sergeant oh sure so off we ride and he was
Jeremy Lesniak:
With all the stories that I’ve heard from you and other the idea of those 2 gentlemen in some kind of buddy cop movie tv show I think just writes itself I can actually see it.
John Graham:
Yeah, I mean it was it was crazy I had to tell them, you guys get back in the karate this is 50:02 I mean they were like wahh wahha wahh it was just hilarious oh my god I mean you know they didn't get involved in they didn't over step their bounds and they really didn't they were gentlemen that understood that you know I had to supervise crime scenes and 50:20 other accidents and things like that but just you know they're wow John that's some heavy stuff you know and 50:30 and how do you deal with that you know we had a couple that didn't make it on some situations I’ll just leave it at that and we talk to that like all three of us just talk through that kind of stuff cause you know Joe was in Vietnam and so we had those kind of conversations I mean just conversations that I cherish and that pop up in my mind at the craziest times you know and some people say I move like Joe Lewis because I'm built a little like him and that's the biggest compliment I’ve ever heard you know so I just had a blessed life when it comes to teachers and I am a conglomerate of those two wonderful human beings that shared with me their knowledge and their friendship and their camaraderie and it don't get any better than that.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Does not, no obviously that's a wonderful foundation that we just learned from those 2 gentlemen but also your Chinese instructor, if you were to add somebody else, I'm sorry go ahead.
John Graham:
And he knew I was training with him and he was like great what a good idea, he was that kind of cause a lot of times I got to say something about martial artists and they think their way is the only way and that you should only follow one path well I can get to Mississippi by airplane by car by bike by motorcycle by boat but I'm still gonna end up in Mississippi, 52:16 walk and that's the way you get there doesn't matter, what matters is if you get there and that's the way my Chinese instructor looked at it was movement with movement and that's the way Bill and Joe looked at it that's why they didn't care what arts you studied, they just cared whether you got their concept or not and who else what I wanna train with would probably be Chuck maybe Chuck Norris or I he was fascinating in fact that he was a point fighter that was a top of the line I trained with Skipper Mullins I’ve trained with Benny the Jet who was amazing, trained with Cynthia Rothrock did 2 movies with her down here in Mobile, so I’ve met a lot of them you know and I still go back to my two guys you know I mean all those guys have a lot of talent but when the word connection see cause a student to me has to choose his teacher but the teacher has to choose the student too and that is sometimes a misnomer or misconnection between 2 people right the instructor and the student or the student and instructor and when you get that for lack of a better word that marriage you cherish it and you keep it going so those two guys everybody else would have been icing on the cake or baby just dessert or whatever but as long as I had those 2 as a fun my fundamentals and my founding board and helping me through cause I got to some stuff one time and I called Joe about it called GM Lewis and I told him and the guy calls me up and he goes okay, I'm letting you out of everything just get that son of a gun off my butt please and it could 54:22 one of my boys and he goes you don't mess with one of my guys and when you are Joe's guy you are Joe's guy and Bill's the same way I mean Bill's absolutely the same way but Joe was adamant about it you just didn't mess with one of his guys and 54:42 he was with you and eh would stand 54:47 guns blazing it didn't matter what it was he was there and when you get that kind of comment from non-human being you put it in the cherish part of your memory and your heart.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Of course, now you've talked a little bit about the movies that you've done, you mentioned that you did a couple with Cynthia Rothrock and let's take a step out of the memory lane you know as it relates to GM Wallace and Leis talk a little bit about some these other elements to your training your history, movie.
John Graham:
Well I Mobile is a right to work state so in other words they could shoot movies down here cheaper and so we've had quite a few movies shot down here. 55:36 one and a lot of people have something of the third kind that big Steven Spielberg movie we shot here I ended up becoming a stuntman and did some movies with some low budget but they were still they got out and I actually produced the movie called the one warrior with David Jason Franck's the Green Ranger and it got sold in 20 countries and I did some stunts in it but I’ve been thrown against walls I’ve had my I’ve been shot to a plate glass window which was amazing with machine gun, squibs on my chest I was laid chopped off by an alien and had to use a trampoline and flip through the air so that's my movies I'm not an actor I was more of a stuntman and would have a line or 2 and then get killed so they were you know felony was one of them there was this I can't remember all the names right at the top of my head cause it's been quite a few years since I’ve done a movie. I still do a little print ad stuff or commercial ones in a while but you know I'm 65 years old who the heck wants to look at men you know. So.
Jeremy Lesniak:
As you're talking about being thrown around and beat out and sent through plate glass windows I'm thinking that your time working with Bill Wallace and Joe Lewis probably prepared you for a bit of that.
John Graham:
Beat up we were so low budget this one movie that the plate the glass it was sugared glass obviously and so the guy goes the director David Pria goes I got one piece of glass it cost $2500 we got one cut if you mess it up I'm not paying you and I'm barring you from movies. I said no pressure huh he said yeah, no pressure right so off it went and I threw myself through that you know the 57:36 I threw myself back on the pad you know they had a break pad in the back and I was laying there and nobody said anything and I was like uh oh something happened and I stood up and everybody started clapping so I was like whew damn I did that one so that was fun that was just so much fun.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Do you respond well under pressure?
John Graham:
Oh yes that has to do with yeah anytime my guys we had a whole a bank robbery or let's say shooting or something like that I could call in the block off the streets tell them where to go how to do it and I'd get back there and go and that's just always been something I learned I guess when I started in the marine corps, pressure brings the best out of me. I don't shut down I go to work.
Jeremy Lesniak:
You mentioned your age so I'm not asking it but here you are you've accomplished a tremendous amount for a man who's 65 years old I mean multiple black belts training with arguably 2 of the best martial artists who ever lived movies you have your own school you have a family you had a career in law enforcement but here you know at a I mean for our region here in New England you know a reasonably large event just a couple of weekends ago you flew up you know I got to see you were there you were participating clearly you have a love for martial artists I'm sorry for martial arts but are there things that are keeping you going beyond that you know you don't conduct yourself as man who's going through the motions it looks like there are still stuff that you're looking to do, so what are those goals, where is that motivation coming from?
John Graham:
Quite simply I made a commitment to Joe Lewis and to Bill Wallace and that's a personal commitment that I made to both of them and in particular to Joe Lewis and I'm gonna do it and his if I can help it in anyway as long as I'm alive the name Joe Lewis will never ever be off people's list and his ability to teach in the way that he taught will be on the tape and I don't care if I'm 70 75 if I can still do it I'm gonna do it and I want his name to live to always be remembered by these young guys realize where they came from the sweat and the stuff that those guys had to put up with when they started kickboxing I mean they were rejected by traditionalists they were you know what I'm doing is nothing compared to what those guys had to put up with to get where we're at today and as long as John Graham's breathing I will be a cheerleader for those 2 guys and do the best I can to keep their legacy going.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Phenomenal stuff you as someone who values both of them I appreciate that that is so important to you and fortunately you're not the only one who cares about the two of them so much.
John Graham:
Yeah that's right.
Jeremy Lesniak:
If anyone's listening if they wanna you know see more about what's going on with you know websites social media you know how can people find you online?
John Graham:
I have a YouTube channel Master Graham and I do post kung fu videos like I taught a two man staff and the two man had a hand set at the symposium that's on there they wanted to one and look at that and then some of my performances in China are on the YouTube channel and some of Joe and Bill stuff is on there so it's a lot of things so you could just go to Master Graham on YouTube and I’ll pop up and that's the way to get to know me really.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Okay great and of course if anyone out there is new to the show I’ll find a direct link to that link it from the show notes at whistlekickmartialartsradio.com and you know we'll drop some other stuff in there some videos I’ve got some ideas, especially this relates to these 2 gentlemen we have spoken about quite a bit today, give you some more context for who you are GM Graham because you know you certainly started martial arts before you met them but I think it's safe to say that who you are was tremendously maybe even unimaginably shaped by your relationships with the two of them.
John Graham:
Yeah you hit it right on the head it sure was, what a blessed life I’ve had you know it's just been amazing road and I'm not through yet you know I'm only 65 and I look at Wallace and I go you're not human you know what you're 72 you're still kicking me in the rib like you remember when he kicked me in the rib that the concrete.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I sure do.
John Graham:
I was like man up I felt my kidney quiver 1:03:06 and I'm sorry well I did step forward into it you know I did step forward on the jab which if I hadn't done he just hit me harder cause I didn't step forward so I stepped into it so I can't really blame GM Wallace for that it was me too.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I will share one moment you know that occurred between you and I and you did promise to get me for this and maybe I’m being foolish in bringing it back up. GM Wallace had demonstrated something by slapping you across the shoulder and it was clear that it's stung and you made a face and so me being you know kind of the young guy in the group kind of the smart aleck says I'm sorry sir I couldn't see that and he didn't just slap you one more time it was like another 12 times and just and the look on your face I know the next time we're in the same room together I'm gonna get it, it will remain to be seen whether or not it'll be worth it but I just you know I'm willing to own up to the things that I do and listeners I think it's that right there it's a great testament to the culture that GM Wallace and you know still the legacy of the culture that GM Lewis sent down among to people that followed their instruction you know it's not just training it's fun, it's building that familial relationship that you've spoken about so much today.
John Graham:
See to me when you said that that meant that you were getting something out of it and it I didn't mind getting hit by him cause you were engaged you see you were listening you wanted to kinda make things happen so I wasn't really upset I was happy that you did that because I wished more people would do that I mean not that I like getting kicked in the head by Wallace but let me tell you this dear I'm gonna hook kick you at the back of your head.
Jeremy Lesniak:
That's fair well deserved.
John Graham:
And 1:05:15 shoulder to shoulder and 1:05:16 like your head like I did to Anthony so it's gonna be our love though Jeremy you think of it that way.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Fair enough. This has been a lot of fun I always ask the guest to send us out kind of in the same way what advice what parting words would you share with the listeners?
John Graham:
If you're a martial artist, you're a martial artist you're a martial artist in your heart your soul your actions your influence matters so you have to be very careful when you're out and around because you represent a whole culture of people so be careful have fun but remember who we are and never forget the people who got you there.
Jeremy Lesniak:
If you listen to this episode and you got the sense that GM Graham is a good man you'd absolutely be right from the first moment I met him through the subsequent times I’ve met him to our conversation even our messages leading up to recording this episode he was nothing if not courteous and humble and absolutely accommodating in a way that very few people of his standing and skill are these days. Maybe it's his southern upbringing or I would like to think more so it's just that he's a good man. Thank you, GM Graham, for coming on the show as I said in the intro there are photos there are videos there's so much more social media a lot of it going on at the show notes for this episode 294 whistlekickmartialartsradio.com. You can find all of our products everything else we've got going at whistlekick.com, sign up for the newsletter and if you wanna follow us on social media you can do so @whistlekick if you wanna get me directly go ahead email me jeremy@whistlekick.com. I thank you for your time thank you for the honor of some of your finite amount of your day listening to my voice listening to this episode I appreciate it, it means the world to me. Until next time train hard smile and have a great day.