Episode 1012 - Tuari Dawson
In this episode, Jeremy chats with New Zealander Tuari Dawson, host of the Invisible Sensei Podcast. Their discussion shifts from many topics including martial arts, Bruce Lee, and podcasting Listen to hear more!
Tuari Dawson - Episode 1012
SUMMARY
In this conversation, Tuari Dawson explores the themes of vulnerability, cultural identity, and the journey into martial arts. He discusses the impact of Bruce Lee as a role model, the lessons learned during adolescence, and the influence of American martial arts on his training. The conversation highlights the importance of community and belonging in martial arts, as well as the personal growth that comes from these experiences.
In this conversation, Tuari explores the evolution of martial arts in America, the significance of cross-training, and the impact of military training on martial arts culture. He also discusses the politics of martial arts, the importance of building a strong foundation, and the concept of martial arts as an infinite game. The conversation emphasizes the need for connection, humor, and humanity in martial arts training, highlighting the shared experiences and struggles within the martial arts community.
In this engaging conversation, Jeremy Lesniak and Tuari Dawson explore the evolution of podcasting, the importance of creativity and storytelling in martial arts, and the value of learning and growth through shared experiences. They discuss the challenges and rewards of podcasting, the significance of community, and the necessity of persistence in pursuing one's passions. The dialogue culminates in reflections on change and the impact of sharing one's journey with others.
TAKEAWAYS
Cultural identity plays a significant role in martial arts.
Bruce Lee serves as a powerful role model for many.
Adolescence often brings arrogance and overconfidence.
Martial arts can provide a refuge from difficult environments.
Community in martial arts is unique and essential.
American martial arts have a profound influence globally.
Lessons learned in martial arts extend beyond the dojo.
Martial arts in the U.S. have evolved from a melting pot of styles.
Cross-training was once common and is becoming popular again.
Martial arts politics often stem from insecurity and fear.
Military training has influenced the structure of martial arts.
Martial arts is an infinite journey without a clear end.
Connection among martial artists fosters community and understanding.
Humor and humanity are essential in martial arts training.
Looking for colleagues rather than sensei reflects a shift in perspective.
Creativity plays a vital role in martial arts as an art form.
Teaching is a privilege that comes with the responsibility to learn.
CHAPTERS
00:00 Introduction and Vulnerability
04:57 The Journey into Martial Arts
09:51 Cultural Identity and Role Models
14:56 Lessons from Adolescence and Growth
20:11 Influences of American Martial Arts
24:55 Community and Belonging in Martial Arts
33:00 The Evolution of Martial Arts in America
36:02 Cross-Training and the Melting Pot of Styles
39:00 The Politics of Martial Arts and Insecurity
42:10 The Impact of Military Training on Martial Arts
49:03 Building a Strong Foundation in Martial Arts
55:04 The Infinite Game of Martial Arts
01:01:10 The Importance of Connection in Martial Arts
01:07:13 The Role of Humor and Humanity in Training
01:14:15 The Evolution of Podcasting Conversations
01:15:03 The Importance of Learning and Growth
01:16:02 Creativity in Martial Arts
01:18:18 Persistence in Podcasting
01:21:36 The Journey of Podcasting
01:24:20 Building Connections and Community
01:27:58 Closing Thoughts on Change and Contribution
To connect with Tuari:
Invisible Sensei | Instagram, Facebook | Linktree
This episode is sponsored by Kataaro. Please check out their site at www.kataaro.com and use the code WK10 to save 10% off your first order. And be sure to ask them about a wholesale account for school owners!
All orders for Autism Awareness belts in March and April will see 50% of the PROFITS donated to the International Society for Autism Research!
After listening to the episode, it would be exciting for us to know your thoughts about it.
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Show Transcript
Jeremy Lesniak (06:27.118)
What's happening everybody? Welcome back. It's another episode of Whistlekick martial arts radio and today's episode I'm joined by Tuari Dawson. Did I get your name right? Yes. Awesome. We're going to have a great time and if you are new to the show, I want you to do a few things. One, I want you to go to whistlekick.com and see everything that we do as an organization. We are far more than the show. We have a book division. We have a competition division. We have a book division. We have a
Tuari (06:36.111)
Indeed.
Jeremy Lesniak (06:56.536)
training division, right? There are a lot of people there with between between the people who who head up divisions and work on things. WhistleKick's like 30 something people now. It's crazy to see how much we've grown and I'm super pumped and super proud of it. But a lot of it starts back here. This is the second thing. WhistleKickMarshortsRadio.com. This and every other episode, we're well over a thousand episodes now, 10 years in. I'm so excited for everything that we've done. We have an amazing team here putting out this show.
And if you want the behind the scenes, the background, the nitty gritty, sometimes the outtakes, sign up for the email list. Go to whistlekickmarshwarzradio.com. There's a link right at the top. three, I want you to check out Kataro, K-A-T-A-A-R-O.com. Use the code WK10. I think you've got to use caps on that to save 10 % on your first order. But if you've got a school, you can also do a wholesale account. They make the best belts. Absolutely amazing. And what they...
They've sent over, this is an autism awareness belt. So March is autism awareness month. And through March and April, they're donating half the profits of this belt to the International Society for Autism Research. If you can think of a belt, they can make it. They've done some absolutely cool stuff. If you go to Kataro, you'll see the whistle kick belt that I designed that they said, we don't know how to make that yet, but we'll figure it out. And they did, and you can get it. Great stuff, all made in the USA. And thank you to Kataro for their continued support.
And thank you to you, Tori, for being on the show here today. Welcome. Welcome to MorseWorx Radio.
Tuari (08:28.027)
Thank you so much. It's wonderful to be here. I've been along, it's kind of cliche to say, but a long time miss and a first time caller.
Jeremy Lesniak (08:39.244)
You know we've tried to have call we thought about how to do a call in show before. But it's. know what one of the things that we've done and you great example of this in doing a pre recorded. Podcast we can reach people regardless of time zone it's it's 8am where you are it's 3pm here where the opposite were on opposite sides of the world and through the beauty of technology we get to talk but.
It's not quite the same as when you have a radio show and everybody's in the same, you know, 50 mile radius.
Tuari (09:12.892)
I agree, I agree, very difficult.
Jeremy Lesniak (09:15.916)
Yeah. Where should we start? There are a lot of places we could start.
Should we start with how you started training?
Do we want to go there or do we want to go somewhere else?
Tuari (09:29.179)
You know what, I think if people are listening, we can definitely, I think it'll kind of come up, if people are listening, they're probably training and it's kind of a familiar story. There's Bruce Lee movies involved. There's rambunctious uncles who know martial arts.
Jeremy Lesniak (09:46.21)
What was the first one? I have this theory that everybody remembers and likes their first Bruce Lee movie the best. So what was your first one?
Tuari (09:51.737)
Yeah, yeah. My first Bruce Lee movie was in New Zealand. It was released as Way of the Dragon and it's the one set in Rome. I don't know what it was. Well, I think it might have been released in other countries with a different name, but that was the one that kind of the scene in the alleyway where he's training and he's firing people across the.
the alleyway with sidekicks and all that sort of stuff. That's the one that kind of turned my head in a big way. Funnily enough, I'd actually been, I'd been training for about five years before that, before I saw that, but I hated it. I hated it. wasn't, I wasn't keen on it. But then once I saw it, once I saw Bruce Lee, I thought, that's the thing to be. And,
Jeremy Lesniak (10:29.198)
Really? Okay.
Jeremy Lesniak (10:38.446)
It gave you something to aspire to. It gave you a hero.
Tuari (10:42.245)
Well, I think also too, I think, yeah, I think that if you, when you're young and like for me, I never really got into sort of some of the, I guess, traditional sports we have here in New Zealand, in particular rugby and those sorts of things. Every kid from New Zealand plays rugby. You don't really get a choice, especially if you're Polynesian. And, but I never really, I never kind of felt a...
Jeremy Lesniak (10:52.782)
Mm-hmm.
Tuari (11:11.951)
towards group activities and group sports. And martial arts was sort of something that came into my life really early. started when I was a little kid. When was five, was kind of my first real experience of sort of seeing it. And then when I was 10, I saw my first Bruce Lee movie and I've kind of been inspired by that and moved through it and passed it. But I have to acknowledge that it's my formative experience.
They were really kind of
Jeremy Lesniak (11:43.992)
Now, I'm curious, mean, you brought up being a Polynesian kid in New Zealand, and I don't know the demographic breakout for New Zealand, but my guess is it's primarily not Polynesian. Is that?
Tuari (11:49.775)
Mm. Mm.
Tuari (11:56.729)
Hmm.
Tuari (12:02.363)
Well, I'm one of the... Well, I'm one of... Māori people are indigenous people to New Zealand. So I'm... As you would have in America, you would have, you know, different native people, indigenous people there. I come from there. I'm also... You know, Māori people are part of the Polynesian Triangle. And also my dad's... My father was Samoan. He's from Samoa.
Jeremy Lesniak (12:10.797)
Right.
Jeremy Lesniak (12:17.495)
sure.
Jeremy Lesniak (12:29.166)
Hmm.
Tuari (12:29.787)
Um, so it's kind of a thing you do, you know, rugby is a huge, we are a huge sporting nation in terms of rugby and we're only a small nation. We have in total, there are 5 million people in New Zealand. I think it's 5.5 million people. So not by any stretch of the imagination of big country, but I think in terms of sports, we kind of punch above our weight. Um, and rugby is huge and it's almost like a religion.
Jeremy Lesniak (12:54.19)
Sure. Sure. the reason I'm asking, know, if sadly indigenous peoples in most of the world end up as a minority over the last 100 to 200 years. I'm guessing that that is a fair assessment of New Zealand as well.
Tuari (13:13.305)
I think wherever there's colonisation, there's always really similar stories between the coloniser and the colonised. But yes, to a large extent that would be true.
Jeremy Lesniak (13:21.71)
Okay. So now that I'm confirming I'm correct, here's my question.
There's an aspect and we've heard this from quite a few folks over the years who they identity even if they were not of Chinese descent simply being of some manner of localized minority descent Seem to identify with Bruce Lee and and his movies does that describe you?
Tuari (13:56.749)
I think, well, I would love to think that comparing myself to Bruce Lee would draw some kind of strong comparison in a favorable way, technique-wise and build-wise, but yes, it would. And I think that what happens, know, irrespective of where you're from or what culture you come from, if you're growing up in a place where you don't feel like you have agency or power or a sense of...
I'm struggling not to say direction, but a sense of your own worth watching this kind of fish out of water go to Rome where he doesn't speak the language, where they all kind of look down on him until he has these incredible, he demonstrates his prowess and then the girl likes him and then he has friends. That's an attractive thing. And most importantly too, I think when you're young,
I know for me, I was looking for strong, positive, powerful role models. And when you're a kid, you all know, Jeremy, training children, know, they really respond to, in the initial stages, to physical power. If you can, you know, we all know the sort of the tricks of the trade in terms of breaking, know, doing tamashiware and all that sort of stuff. It's really a matter of physics and training.
But if you do that with a group of children, you break some boards or do one of those things or kick a bag or something, they think it's the coolest thing ever. And what they respond to in the initial is the power that's displayed. And I think probably just like everyone else, I was just so impressed with everything about Bruce Lee that I think that became kind of an archetype that I spent the rest of my life sort of looking for in martial arts.
Jeremy Lesniak (15:55.071)
Now you were 10, right? And so you may not remember well, but I suspect you do remember.
What if we were observers in the Tuari movie and we saw the before and the after of you, your life, probably more specifically your training, what would we have seen differently because of Bruce Lee and watching this movie?
Tuari (16:06.521)
Mm-hmm.
Tuari (16:21.371)
Prior to seeing Bruce Lee, me, was, know, training was kind of something that I had a familiar duty to do it in the sense that, you know, I had people who, it just was something that we did. It was kind of not something I was hugely inspired to do. I think after watching Bruce Lee, I think I had that kind of movie going in the back of my head and probably from ages 10 to...
Um, let's say, I want to say 10 to 20. probably from 10 to 15, you would have seen a lot of arrogance. Um, you would have seen a lot of, um, uh, believing that he was a lot better than what he was. Um, a kind of a judgemental know-it-all sort of attitude that had very little patience for anyone who wasn't doing what he was doing in the way that he was doing it.
I think you would see someone who thought that the only way to get better was sparring, had no time for kata or no time for any of those sorts of things. It was pretty much an A-grade world-class Olympic champion show-off, really. And it's kind of one of those things. There were people who know me from those days who come back into my circle every now and says, do you remember when? And I'm going, yeah, I remember when.
And sort of in and around the time when I saw not too long after seeing Bruce Lee, I saw another movie called The Last Dragon, which I really, which really was a huge hit in New Zealand. And so the idea of walking around wearing Kung Fu shoes and sort of all those kinds of really, at the time we thought were really cool things was a big thing. And so I think that probably what you were getting, who you saw,
was someone who was, I wasn't about expression of martial arts. I was about creating an impression of a martial artist and what I thought that to be. And I watched entirely too many movies and there was enough, there was enough, let's say, encounters with people who could really take care of themselves who, that taught me, yeah, maybe I wasn't Bruce Lee.
Tuari (18:46.937)
and I wasn't going to be Bruce Lee. So I'm thankful that I survived some of those encounters and I had people around who were actually could see what was going on and kind of guided me and what they hoped was a positive direction, if that makes sense.
Jeremy Lesniak (19:05.286)
It does. It does. You're talking about the arrogance of that 10 to 15 year old range. I think that that can be, I don't know if I want to go so far as to say common, but it's certainly not uncommon, right? Adolescence tends to bring a bit of that, but also you've been training for five years at that point. So as you're coming into your own physically, you've got some context for how to move your body and
Tuari (19:06.575)
Hmm.
Tuari (19:12.603)
Mm.
Tuari (19:21.371)
Yeah.
Tuari (19:27.067)
Mm.
Jeremy Lesniak (19:34.822)
Living in an area where being. Physical is.
from my outside vantage, even more celebrated and more common than it often is in the US. I mean, that's my context. And it seems to breed, not literally, but a culture of, know, let's be physical. And so that almost sounds like a perfect storm for being what you're describing. So as somebody I...
I know might say, you came by it honestly.
Tuari (20:15.259)
I'm just going to say yes and just not dig any deeper into that.
Jeremy Lesniak (20:23.022)
Sure, But you said that was through 15 and.
So what I think I heard you say, and you kind of danced around it a little bit, but maybe you had some encounters that went dramatically differently than you would have expected them to go, and it forced you to take a step back and say,
Tuari (20:48.367)
Hmm.
Jeremy Lesniak (20:49.378)
This is a different situation than I thought it was. that what I'm hearing? OK.
Tuari (20:52.219)
Yeah. Well, I think also too, I was the shortest kid in our school and I went away for a summer and came back and I was the tallest kid in the school. And I think I was probably about 13 or 14. So from then on, kind of grew really fast. I'm six four now. I think I went from being five something to six two when I was a teenager. And...
Jeremy Lesniak (21:19.896)
must have been painful.
Tuari (21:22.083)
Well, yeah, well, yeah, it was, was, was a whole bunch of painful, painful for a whole bunch of reasons. I, but I think also to on the positive work training in martial arts, and I also really enjoyed gymnastics, like climbing trees, all those sorts of things. We're always really enjoyed. And I think that martial arts kind of gave you gave me a context. So, cause you know, when people talk about growing into their body as teenagers, you know, we see it and we probably remember it. You probably remember it during these kind of
Jeremy Lesniak (21:24.426)
talk about growing pains.
You sure?
Tuari (21:52.057)
Like suddenly your feet are bigger, there's that so-called clumsy stage and it's really about growing into your body. I think in some ways for me, one of the things that I needed to do was to grow into, begin the process of growing into myself, which sounds very esoteric, but I think that coming up, Bruce Lee and Jackie Chan and...
Who Has Toshiro Mifuni and all of these kind of wonderful martial arts movies always really impressed me. I was always a huge fan. When I kind of had my teenage years, because of the way in which and where I grew up and the community in which I grew up in, there was a lot of drugs, there was a lot of alcohol, there was a lot of, there was a lot of violence, familial violence, and trying to find some escape from that martial arts seemed to be the thing.
because you could do it anywhere. You know, could go and find a space somewhere out in some football field or in some forest or something in practice that appealed to me. But also what happens when you go through that is that just like anywhere in the world, you start looking for, at the time you look for father figures, you look for male role models. And I think that was one of the things that sort of started to happen through those years.
And look, I started bouncing when I was, I started working in a bar when I was 16, started doing door work. And I was also, a lot of people I trained with were doorman, had worked in that area. And in that generation of doorman where it wasn't about doing a course on how to handle someone's emotional intensity. these were nailed working class men.
who had been in the trade for 30 years. So it was kind of the last hurrah for those sort of people. So what I learned from them and what I learned from that experience was invaluable later in life. And I met some people during that time that were really physically able, boxers, judoka, different styles of karate and just really hard people who could if...
Jeremy Lesniak (24:06.114)
Hmm.
Tuari (24:16.965)
they threw a punch, you'd stay punched. But what I learnt was that just because you can doesn't always mean that you should, which was really, really important for me. As I said, I remember there was a young guy that I challenged with a crane kick. In my early life, I can't believe I'm telling you this Jeremy, you're very good at getting these deep dark stories. And I think it was the jumping front kick or something.
some ridiculously over the top technique and this was in the school yard. And I kind of initiated this. I'd had a couple, I had a few fights in the school yard in which I'd beaten bigger people, but surely to be honest, probably more through bravado and complete fluke. Anyway, did this kick, grabbed my foot, swept me to the ground, put me in the headlock and said, are we going to do this? And I went, no. And he let me up and I learned a valuable lesson that day.
Jeremy Lesniak (24:55.544)
Boom.
Jeremy Lesniak (25:12.984)
Hold real.
Tuari (25:14.561)
gosh, I would have been about 14. But I've always remembered that, you know, he could have, you know, tied me into a pretzel and kicked me off a roof, but he didn't do that. And so that made an impression. And I think that was the start of me really learning about what manhood is, about what bravado is, overconfidence, arrogance.
Jeremy Lesniak (25:23.0)
Yeah.
Tuari (25:42.331)
self-assuredness, not in the sense that I had any, I could start to recognise it in others. I feel like I'm rambling, sorry Jeremy.
Jeremy Lesniak (25:52.686)
I don't think any of this is ramble. I am seeing this as foundation. Please continue.
Tuari (26:00.027)
Cool. No, I will, I think that a lot of times, you know, especially, you know, we equate physical, you know, power is a huge dynamic in any, in any, anything we do in life. know, young men, want to be powerful. We want to be strong. We want to be this and that. But I was quite, actually quite a sensitive kid. And I think that I also started left school.
and started working in, I think you'd call it the slaughterhouse over there. I started working in what, in New Zealand we call the freezing works, with my dad. And so I kind of had this really crazy education in the sense that I couldn't read or write when I left school, but I started working in the slaughterhouse around all these men. And I was working in bars at night where you kind of learned how to get really good with your mouth.
Jeremy Lesniak (26:31.16)
Hmm.
Tuari (26:56.335)
You know, those sort of environments, you know, it's very macho, don't show any, you you're constantly ribbing each other, you know, for good or ill. And so I got really good at that. But also had met some, you know, I grew up with men, some of them had fought in the Second World War. Some had been to Vietnam, some were teachers, some were lawyers, some were doctors.
Jeremy Lesniak (27:15.854)
Hmm.
Tuari (27:19.927)
some were owned racehorses. So I grew up with a wide swath of my teenage years of really interesting people. So whilst I wasn't great educationally, experientially, I had a lot of people to kind of draw from. And I think with martial arts, martial arts was always kind of a little bit of a refuge during that time as well. was something that I really enjoyed doing. And
kind of fed a kind of a need in me. wonder, I have often wondered if I hadn't been participating in martial arts with the Nura, I probably would have joined a gang. Just because of having that proclivity towards power, wanting to be popular and, you know, be respected and all these sorts of things, you know, that would have, could have been a pathway. Thankfully I didn't walk down.
Jeremy Lesniak (28:18.222)
It's community, right? I think for so many of us, we end up in martial arts because we crave community, but the traditional hierarchical community of team sports doesn't work for us, right? And martial arts is kind of unique in that it's an individual pursuit, but it's done in a group. And there aren't a lot of things that are like that.
Tuari (28:19.888)
Mm.
Tuari (28:25.627)
Hmm.
Tuari (28:35.269)
Mm. Mm.
Tuari (28:44.111)
Mm. Mm.
Jeremy Lesniak (28:46.478)
And if you, you know, I know purely from reading, but I think I've got a decent understanding of the psychology of what attracts people into gang life. it is, it's familial, it's community, it's wanting to have people that you know, have your back if things are difficult. And let's face it, for all of us, things are difficult at times, whether, you know, my difficulty and your difficulty could be dramatically different, but you know, we...
Tuari (28:59.237)
Hmm.
Mm.
Jeremy Lesniak (29:15.66)
We all have our difficulties and not whether that by yourself is really appealing even if it.
might involve some things that you wouldn't otherwise want to participate in.
Tuari (29:28.763)
You know, it's interesting you sort of talk about that, know, weirdly, I think that one of the most powerful influences on martial arts, at least in my life, has been America. You know, here in New Zealand, I mean, I remember Inside Kung Fu Magazine, Black Belt Magazine.
Jeremy Lesniak (29:40.974)
Hmm.
Tuari (29:50.107)
you know, the movies, the media, you know, all of those sorts of things. You America was such a powerful country in terms of, you know, for me, I look at the breadth of styles and practitioners and sort of all the attendant sort of issues with having all those people too. You know, the things which make Masha, it's great.
also goes along proportionally with the things that make some mashara not that great, right? But for me, I just remember waiting, you know, going to the bookseller to the magazine place and just waiting for Inside Kung Fu and Black Mouth magazine to come out. And just, you know, going there weekly to try and monthly to try and get these magazines and then just kind of even not being able to read at the time, but just absolutely just taking in everything that we could about it. had a
a couple of friends who were into martial arts that we trained together. And so I remember, you we used to watch anything and everything. And then was kind of all the training videos and all those sort of back in the day when, you know, ask your parents kids, videotapes kids, you know, it was really, really important. And I think it kind of remains, so a lot of my people that I look up to and regard as mentors.
you know, are American, you know, happen to be American instructors. And so also, you know, America as a place seemed to be this incredible sort of melting pot of martial arts. I remember there was a, I don't know if you know this one, Jeremy, there was a video that came out called Karate Rock in the 80s. And it was about the...
Ed Parker's tournament, was like, Toki Hill, Billy Blanks, a whole bunch of, you know, at that time, very prominent on the tournament scene. But we thought it was the coolest thing ever. And we just watched it until the wheels fell off. so, you know, in terms of really powerful influences, you know, my own sensei, one of my own sensei, lived up in Spokane in Washington state. He passed away in 2015, but...
Tuari (32:09.455)
you know, if you wanted to train with him, you went up to Spokane. And America growing up for us, in terms of the martial arts, always seemed like this really quite amazing place. mean, Daniel-san came from America, right? know, Mr. Miyagi lived in America. you know, very, very, that was a powerful influence on all of us as well.
Jeremy Lesniak (32:21.474)
Hmm.
Jeremy Lesniak (32:31.514)
I think we're in such an interesting time in terms of traditional martial arts because given the near removal of communication barriers over the last 10, 20 years, however you want to look at it with the internet and let's face it, the fact that we can do this. wasn't that long ago, one of us would have had to get on a plane to do this. And when you factor that in,
Tuari (32:45.189)
Hmm.
Tuari (32:51.259)
Mm.
Tuari (32:55.387)
Yep.
Jeremy Lesniak (33:00.354)
with the fact that almost all martial arts in the United States tracks back to people who went overseas and trained for a little while, in the grand scheme, a little while, and they came back and that created a lot of difference. And a lot of those differences we found maybe weren't so good, but some of them are.
And it means that we've got even more. So you talked about a melting pot. And so we've had folks on the show and maybe you've even heard some of these episodes. I'm sure some folks in the audience have too, that talk about those experiences of the sixties. We've had some folks from the sixties on and that first crop of martial arts where cross training wasn't a bad thing because nobody knew anything. And they all said, let's figure this out together.
And then through the seventies and eighties, that started to change, but now it's changing back. And so we have these unique flavors of martial arts, even if they more or less originated from elsewhere. And now we have a global melting pot. And for me, that's one of the most exciting things as a martial artist is that I can, I have access to nearly anyone and not, not, don't mean because of the show. just mean, and hopefully me banging the keyboard accidentally out of excitement didn't mess anything up. watching. Nope. Everything looks good. Okay.
Tuari (34:09.637)
Hmm.
Mm.
Tuari (34:22.936)
Hahaha
Jeremy Lesniak (34:25.55)
Pull my hands away, Jeremy. Having access to so many people doing any type of martial art that we want. mean, you YouTube, university, maybe it's not the best way to learn depth, but at least it can help me think of the questions I want to find answers to. And I find that amazing. It just, to me, it's one of the most exciting things about being alive as a martial artist now.
Tuari (34:38.619)
Hmm.
Tuari (34:43.504)
Mm.
Tuari (34:47.841)
yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak (34:55.436)
because the more we have access to, the more ability we have to get better. It doesn't mean that diversity in our training is always better, but it can be.
Tuari (35:08.246)
I think that it's interesting, there's a really great point you bring up and about the diversity of training and the idea of cross training and meeting other people and training other things. I think if you look at some of the big researcher martial artists like Patrick McCarthy,
you know, Ulf Coulson, you know, that have done a lot of works but speak both, you know, Japanese, you know, have, you know, have spent time going to this, going to Japan and Okinawa and China and seeing those. You know, Scott Mertz is another, since Scott Mertz is another great example of that. Now, one of the things that they've discovered and one of the things that they found is that the idea of cross-training and working with each other and being, and drawing from each other's experience.
was always the way. There's a place in Naha, in Okinawa, another one of your guests, James Pankiewicz, who's a close friend of mine. Across the road from the Chinese gardens in Naha, there is a famous park where there's a lot of memorial statues to famous karate sensei that we might know. Cho-Jun Miyagi, think Kane Uechi is in there as well.
But what this place was always famous for as well was that was where they used to congregate all these different martial artists and whether or not they were masters or they regarded themselves as such as kind of academic. I have a feeling, I've a sense they were just a bunch of people like yourself and like me who just love to train. And they got together to exchange ideas. So the idea that we don't train with each other, I think is quite a modern one. And I think it has its links back in terms of Japanese martial arts and Okinawan martial arts.
to the pre-war militarism that kind of was a signature of styles like Shotokan at that time. They were huge in Japan and became huge around the world and rightly so, they were all wonderful styles. But what happened was that idea that there is an us in them. And for me, I've gone through many stages and the stage that I have to continually watch myself go through is the judgmental stage.
Tuari (37:34.043)
Um, and, and I have in the last few years, well, just generally, I think I have, can have really strong opinions about things and I can articulate them, um, in the worst possible way. And I can be quite rude about other people's, why they train and what they train. And one of my sense early on, actually one of my uncles said to me, not everyone does it for the same reasons that you do. And now I turned 53 a couple of weeks ago and.
And I say this not, I'm getting older, but I'm trying not to get old if that makes any sense. But also to, know, the way that what I'm doing in my martial arts journey is completely different to, I'm customizing it to what I want to do. Now don't know if other people will find it impressive or, but I'm trying to move away from the idea of what's impressive and say, what, now and the time when they carry me out.
Jeremy Lesniak (38:09.313)
It sure does.
Tuari (38:31.739)
What do want to do? What do I want to spend my time studying? What are the kind of people I want to spend my time, my energy and time on? Who feeds me? Who can I have a mutually interesting discussion or experience with? And I think that the idea that we could actually share and learn from each other is, that's not a new thing. But what's happened is,
You know, also, as you know, Jeremy, you I know this is going to come as a shock to you and I want you to just lock yourself down for this. Marshots, there's this thing called Marshots Politics. I don't know if you've heard of it.
Tuari (39:17.467)
you
And I think that what it really comes down to is insecurity and fear. And it comes down to the idea that also I think a lot of martial artists are looking for gurus. lot of, you know, like I said before, as a young man, like in my teens and my twenties and probably into my early thirties, I was very much about hero worship in terms of
finding martial artists and senior sensei who just, I looked at them as paragons of all thing martial and all things life. And so I kind of had this sort of cultish devotion to them and to the idea of them and who I thought they were. And there were those who kind of, yeah. And there are people who kind of said, don't do that with me. But there was other people who actually ramped it up and actually really
Jeremy Lesniak (40:05.678)
and you're certainly not alone. We've all done that, myself included.
Tuari (40:17.569)
reveled in that and I think that also what we tend to do is if Jeremy sensei doesn't like doesn't like Doug Davies from down the road then we don't like Doug Davies and why don't we like him because sensei doesn't like him you know because sensei said his technique is crap and then what happens is
Jeremy Lesniak (40:18.158)
Mm-hmm.
Tuari (40:41.668)
Perhaps Doug Davies and Jeremy Sensei had been friends, grew up, came up in the same dojo and went in different directions. But we don't have a context for that. All we know is that Doug Davies was an enemy of Jeremy Sensei. And then their students will say, Doug Davies students are crap. They're no good. And we don't like Doug Davies. And it's going, well, you have no context for why. And it just becomes this cultish devotion to this stupid idea.
that we've now forgotten how it started.
Jeremy Lesniak (41:13.73)
it forces a response, Because the equation has to balance. So Doug Davey students hate my students and go a few generations of that and nobody was even alive for the argument or that you made me pay, I picked up the check three times in a row and right, it could be something that trivial and
Tuari (41:15.451)
Exactly.
Hmm.
Tuari (41:27.643)
Exactly, exactly.
Tuari (41:33.659)
Yep. Yep.
Jeremy Lesniak (41:40.646)
I think, you you brought up the word fear and I think that that is the word I think ultimately attracts back to fear. You know, and there are a lot of things that we can be afraid of, I think the politics, the ego, it always comes back to some manner of fear. And when I think when we look at what changed the early instructors training together and now we have today where we're all training together again.
What was the difference? Well, I think it was the militaristic spread of martial arts with people who had been conditioned. You know, if they go off to war and they train in martial arts for one to two years, but quite a few of them had more than that in terms of military training. Well, which one's going to win out and what is important in military training that you don't question authority because you don't have time to question authority. And when you do, lots of people may die.
Tuari (42:33.339)
Hmm.
Jeremy Lesniak (42:39.094)
And I, and I fully support that hierarchy in that context. And martial arts with belts and everything is close enough that I can absolutely understand and forgive why one blurred into the other. But we're at a point now where enough of us are not training in the military and we're far enough removed from this. And there have been cultural shifts and we can see, okay.
Tuari (42:54.095)
Mm. Mm.
Jeremy Lesniak (43:08.652)
Yeah, there are aspects of this that are valuable, but there are also ways that we can bring in other things. mean, I would say the majority of instructors today would at least be tolerant of someone attending a one-off seminar from somebody else in the US. Doesn't mean they'd be okay with you training here and there simultaneously, but at least, you know, if
Tuari (43:26.139)
Hmm.
Tuari (43:31.397)
Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak (43:37.452)
If Bill Wallace comes to town, okay, go do that. Now, he might have you do some stuff I don't want you to do, but at least they'll tolerate it. And I don't think it was that long ago that tolerance wasn't even the goal. I think not being dismissed would have been the goal.
Tuari (43:40.315)
You
Mm.
Tuari (43:51.771)
Yeah.
Tuari (43:56.909)
I agree. I think that if you are at home with what you do and who you are, then the idea that people can experience other things shouldn't be threatening. But I also think that it's really important that people have some formative instruction. Now, you know, we touched on it before. For me, I was not about basics. I was not about kihon at all as a young man. was about if I would say...
Jeremy Lesniak (44:19.246)
Hmm.
Tuari (44:24.515)
I would spend more time doing spinning hook kicks, trying to practice spinning hook kicks. I haven't hit anything with a spinning hook kick, but it looked cool. So my focus was how was I perceived by others when I pulled off a spinning hook kick? the idea all the time that it's about perception, understanding having a good solid base in something.
is really important. So you have a context when you go in and see these other things, it's not to sort of say that you go out and sort of go, kind of poo poo what someone else does, but it's, you have a context for to be able to appreciate it. And, it is this thing of, think good instructors, I think there's kind of a really interesting, balance to be struck because you've got some instructors who send people to everything.
You know, they go right to they're not looking at the development of the student in the sense of saying, well, I think this seminar or this experience or this instructor would be really good just to provide some contrast in a positive way. You've got instructors who will send anything and everything. We're going to go here, we're going to go there, we're going to study this, we're going to study that. Which from a certain perspective is positive and they are open.
But I think what it does, it can sometimes shift you off a base. Now, I had a very close friend, she passed away, very tragic, but she was a singer, a really wonderful singer, and she passed away fairly recently. And one of the things that I always noticed about her, thank you, always noted about her, and she wouldn't mind me saying this either, was she had this incredible gift, this incredible voice. She could sing anything.
Every time she went to record her voice or do an album, she would ask 10 people what they thought of what she should do. And what happened was when you ask 10 people, get 40 opinions. And then she would try and accommodate all these opinions, trying to figure out who she needed to be. And one of the things, of the realizations that she had was the only person she could be was herself. And I think that when you open yourself up to when you...
Tuari (46:40.795)
you go to these different seminars, it's almost like you're getting 40 opinions on the same thing. And you have to have some context to go, to put it into a framework where you can sort of see, yeah, I don't have to go and kick only with my left foot like Bill Wallace. Do you know what I mean? You have to be able to take that in a way that makes sense. Maybe I'm not gonna have, I'm certainly not gonna be able to kick like the super foot.
But maybe I don't have a hot kick that can lift up my hip up. Maybe I have a good front snap kick to the groin. maybe I'm a good front kick with a pair of work boots to the knee or to the ankle. So the idea of mastering a technique is what I draw from people like Bill Superfoot, who was training basically...
with an inability to really kick with the other leg. So he was training with some would call it, you know, with a disability. But we don't think of Bill Superfoot as having any kind of, we think of him as super able. And the point being, what do we take from that? We take that if you persevere and you get really good at what you do and what you're able to do and maximize that, sometimes that becomes more of an advantage than a disadvantage.
Jeremy Lesniak (48:03.852)
You know, it's not funny, but you know, you're connecting a dot here that I think we should hit this point hard for maybe some of the newer martial artists that might be watching or listening. You know, the heart of, and this is from the man himself, the heart of Bill Wallace's success is that early on, because he was only kicking with his left foot when everybody did the right foot, he did more on the left foot.
So that early foundation, and I'm not at all suggesting that his success was because he just did twice as much on one side, but there's the base, there's the foundation, the basics. And I tell my students, we practice basics a lot because it's the foundation of the house that you're building. And if you wanna build a tall house or a strong house, you need a strong foundation. And so when you're talking about
schools that have a lot of cross-training or going to lot of seminars, what I was thinking of is different styles of building. I probably want my foundation to be a single style.
Tuari (49:13.093)
Hmm.
Tuari (49:17.347)
Yeah. Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak (49:19.694)
Now that doesn't mean that I can't have. Different floors metaphor breaks down a little bit, but different floors done in different architectural styles, maybe even with different materials, but the more. To the detail I am, I can easily have different styles of wallpaper or colors of paint or different decoration style in different rooms, and it doesn't come close to affecting the integrity of the building itself.
Tuari (49:29.019)
Hmm.
Tuari (49:48.827)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think that just to use your building metaphor, I think that it's a house with many rooms, but some of those houses, some of those rooms are used more often and some of them are occupied on the daily. In terms of basics, I started training in 1977 and...
Jeremy Lesniak (50:00.558)
Mm-hmm.
Tuari (50:15.867)
we all go through that, you know, that there's that whole thing where they're beginning a punch is a punch and a kick is a kick. And then you go through that stage of a punch is no longer a punch and a kick is no longer a kick. And then you come back to a punch is a punch and a kick is a kick. For me, my training yesterday morning, I wasn't out there. I wasn't in the dojo practicing roundhouse kicks. We enjoyed on Moshi-giri or...
hook kicks or dropping reap kicks or standing on one hand to do the Miyagi kick or whatever it is. I was practicing having a decent Zen Kutsurachi and trying to move up the dojo and practice blocking techniques by myself with no partner. Trying to feel like that when my blocking hand comes down, the hand that moves forward, the reverse punch is in some way integrated to my hip, which sounds...
even more boring when I say it out loud, but the practice of fundamentals, the practice of basics is where you not only create a base, but you reaffirm it when you practice it. And as you get older and as you sort of start to, things start to listen. And I like to think that there were things that I can't do.
but there were also things that I would never do again. There were things that I used to do, techniques that I used to do, and I'm going, I'm kind of looking at it like I'm whittling things away. And maybe my technique has definitely changed. I'm not really thinking about how it looks. I'm thinking about what is the best way in which I can utilize the energy that I have with the physicality that I have and do as much damage in terms of putting someone in a position of disadvantage.
with as little energy as possible. So, kata is a massive, massive part of my training. And I've recently started training in a different style of karate from the ground up, just because... It's not because...
Jeremy Lesniak (52:26.882)
Hmm.
Why?
Tuari (52:34.552)
I think.
I think that for the longest time I'm practicing things and I'm going, how do I teach this? And I'm going, I have to continue, there's an element of, I have to keep going over the 12 Guarjuru Kata because I have to teach them. And I will continue to go over the 12 Guarjuru Kata, but I have just a few private students now. don't have a, last year I made the decision to close the doors on having a sort of regular.
sort of idea of what a dojo is. I've got a small group of students that I train on a regular basis. But what that affords me is the opportunity to pick up my iado again, to work on specific kata, to look at strength and conditioning drills outside of traditional hoja ondo, to have time to do a good resistance routine, to stretch. So I give myself the space to be able to create my study.
For me, I saw a style of karate that I just went, there's just something in there and I like what it's about. And I just want to, I'd like to learn something new. And the journey has been really interesting in the sense that it's just really nice to have the time to practice without distraction, if that makes any sense. I'm not thinking.
I'm going have to show someone how to close their hand and do a punch and things like that. I'm going, I'm just trying to grasp something here myself. And I kind of like that. And I think that, you know, as a martial artist, like my base style is Okinawan Gojiru. I started in Kyokushin, I started in Judo and then went into Nihon Jujutsu and I've continued with Gojiru and I've continued...
Tuari (54:34.927)
to continue with jujitsu, I wouldn't, I'm a, I'm a karate, I'm a gojuri karate student who can wrestle a little bit, who's not completely, who can say a few words in a foreign language when it comes to grappling. I'm, you know, I'm, I'm, you know, kubo, I do kubudo, but I wouldn't class myself as any great master of kubudo. So the thing is, that,
Jeremy Lesniak (54:50.048)
Sure, sure.
Tuari (55:04.183)
It's ridiculous of me to recognize.
a gap in my training and not do something to address that. Now, like I say, I'm no great grappler, but I can grapple. I can do enough that. Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak (55:20.29)
And that's okay. And I think there are folks out there who, you know, especially the armchair martial artists who, you know, to my mind, collectively, they have about six months of And they'll point to somebody and say, you know, that's not good. Well, what if it doesn't have to be? If I'm a chef in a kitchen, there are culinary skills that I'm really good at, depending on what I cook.
Tuari (55:32.996)
You
Tuari (55:41.584)
Mm.
Tuari (55:48.463)
Mm. Mm.
Jeremy Lesniak (55:49.794)
There are others that just need to be good enough. I don't need to be a professional.
Tuari (55:52.955)
Mm.
Jeremy Lesniak (56:00.59)
mold cleaning mitigator, right? Like I need to make sure my dishes aren't going to make people sick. Right? There's a whole spectrum there. I need to make sure that, you know, the food is presented in a certain way. And you know what? If I'm at a, if I work somewhere and they have a Mexican themed egg roll, that doesn't mean I have to be well-versed in traditional Chinese cooking.
Tuari (56:27.899)
I agree. think that sort of in the Western, you know, in the Western world, we often look at things in really binary terms. And I know it's a loaded metaphor to use, but I think binary in this regard is winning or losing.
You're either up or you're down. You're in, you're out, all those sorts of things, you know. And I think one of the things that I, there's a great American, guess what would you call him? Speaker, educator called Simon Sinek. And he talks about the idea of the infinite game.
And that, you know, for me, arts is an infinite game. It doesn't have a clear beginning, middle and end. Although you can go through periods and maybe that's how you choose to live your martial arts life. And that it is about the competitive aspect. When I was younger, it was all about the competitive aspect. It was about, can I beat another person? Can I, you know, in whatever way? Now it's about, I want to be able to have the mobility.
to be able to stand up out of my armchair without going, and my knees cracking when I do it. know, want to wonder if I have grandchildren, I'd like to be able to run around the park with them and kick a ball or do whatever, you know, it's about, you know, if I go on holiday and I see people jumping off the water from a cliff, I'd like to be able to do that. I'd like to be able to go rather than watch people. Probably won't do it a lot of times, but I'd love to have the option. So.
The idea of martial arts and also too, find martial arts really good for my mental health. I have a fair amount of experience personally with social anxiety and depression. And I think that for me at least, it's a really strong part of managing that. Not getting rid of it. not, I don't believe it's a cure-all, but I find that martial arts is a wonderful way of...
Tuari (58:38.779)
getting myself into the immediate moment. And I have this thing where I think too far ahead and I can't forget things that happened in the past. And I'm scared about things that haven't happened yet. So martial arts has this wonderful way of bringing you into the moment. And because the styles are so varied, I mean, maybe you're training in an empty hand style. Maybe you're training in the Filipina martial arts. Maybe you're doing Krav Maga, or maybe you're doing Judo, Jiu Jitsu, or Muay Thai, or you know, the millions of martial arts out there, you know.
There is something, there is something in it for everyone. And I honestly believe, you know, that if more people did martial artists, if the people who run our countries and, you did martial arts, actually practiced martial arts, I believe there'd be less wars. I think that when people understand conflict, they understand what can be done and sort of how little power we have and what's the best way to use it or not use it. And so...
Jeremy Lesniak (59:28.078)
Completely agree.
Tuari (59:39.119)
For me, when it comes to martial arts, martial arts is an ongoing thing. It's not something with a clear beginning, a middle and an end. I think I've probably hit the middle, but I know there is no end.
Jeremy Lesniak (59:52.49)
There is no end, And I think, you know, going back to something you said before about winning or losing, you know, versus an infinite game, it's all infinite game. But we have this tendency because we are so, I think because we're so overwhelmed with so much of what's going on that we're looking for the the win, the loss, the checkbox, the success so we can put something down and move on to something else because we're constantly bombarded. And when we take a look at that, the hero worship
Tuari (01:00:03.579)
Mm.
Jeremy Lesniak (01:00:21.9)
I think that is another example that if the person I train with is the best in the world, I never have to consider whether or not to train elsewhere. And if so, what else to train? Because again, that's infinite. That's exhausting. And if I'm just, I'm here, I'm with this person forever.
Tuari (01:00:33.723)
Mm.
Jeremy Lesniak (01:00:44.3)
and I never consider elsewhere, then I know what success looks like. I've created my own definition of success, I've checked the box, and I can either stay here or I can say, you know what, I reached a certain level of competency and I never have to worry about anything else. And I understand the appeal of that, but I don't think that's how the world works.
Tuari (01:01:10.895)
I agree.
Jeremy Lesniak (01:01:11.83)
I think everything about the world is infinitely gray and every and I think martial artists are generally better at understanding that nuance throughout everything, which is why I think, you know, to your point, as people develop martial skill, they tend to be, you know, more patient, they make better leaders and so forth.
Tuari (01:01:14.811)
Hmm.
Tuari (01:01:37.115)
Well, I think that for me, the people that I admire most within the martial arts, and I kind of include you with it because I remember you've also really delved really nicely into a lot of the media aspects, know, programs and TV shows and streamings and movies and things like that, which I really like. But one of the things that I enjoy about, I think, is a mark of someone.
of a good martial artist is a sense of humor, a sense of fun, a sense of play. And an idea that kind of, if you're looking at it from an outside perspective, it's kind of, you know, there was that whole thing of, you know, I guess in the 50s and 60s with James Bond and so on, where he did this judo chop or whatever it was, you know. So there was a little bit of mystery about it. And then in the, you know, 60s and 70s with Bruce Lee, you know, that was the boom, the so-called boom era.
where people didn't know what they were looking at, but they were just impressed by it. And then there was that period, I wanna say between the late 70s or probably the 80s and most of the 90s where it kind of, if you said that you were a black belt or if you said that you do martial arts, was kind of, there was kind of a sort of a bit of a snicker about it because people didn't really take it seriously because there was so many shades of...
Jeremy Lesniak (01:02:47.694)
Hmm.
Tuari (01:03:01.145)
of black belt, what people consider the black belt, right? And I think that now, pardon me, we have to remember this is silliness. You we're in, we're in, we get into these big rooms, pardon me, sorry, do you mind? We get into these big rooms.
Wearing these weird modes of clothing that fall apart, constantly falling open. There are better ways to keep our gear closed than a cloth belt. We're engaged in this activity. We were doing weird dances. We're punching bags. We're doing stuff, you punch me and I'll block this and I'll sweep and I'll do whatever.
And from an outside perspective, if you're an alien, going, what are these idiots doing? But you know what? If loving my shorts makes me an idiot, then an idiot I am. And sometimes I sit back and go, gosh, this really makes no sense. I can see why people like, so I'm big, like makiwara. I like traditional hojo ondo. But I also like weight training and kettlebells and cables and all that sort of stuff, But if I'm out during the winter months,
in my gi outside this window here on my makiwara, punching my makiwara. Fortunately, my partner, she's a martial artist, she's a third dana in karate yourself. she kind of gets it, but she even sees like going, what are you doing? What are you doing? So it doesn't make sense. Like you're training for a fight you don't want to have. And I think the best martial arts, the people that I really enjoy spending time around is they have a realistic, playful attitude towards what they do. It's not to say they're not.
Jeremy Lesniak (01:04:33.08)
He gets it.
Tuari (01:04:50.199)
serious hard training people, but they also have a sense of fun at the ridiculousness of it all. And they train really, really hard, but they also work really hard on their humanity as well. So they're not trying to separate themselves from humanity, they're actually trying to embrace it more. The problem is, of course, go look at that, you're in my sense, are you?
You know, he came in and he's been up in the mountains training with the young man Bush and he's, he's come down. He's, he's deigned to come amongst us. And you're just thinking, I'm just drinking coffee. Anyone want a coffee? And again, only a true master would have the humility to offer others coffee, you know, and again, you would say, I'm not a master. again, yes, only a true master would be that, you know, so it's this kind of weird sort of situation. And the people that I
Jeremy Lesniak (01:05:41.23)
It's that scene in Life of Brian, the Monty Python movie Life of Brian. Only the Messiah would deny being the Messiah. We force people into these roles.
Tuari (01:05:43.993)
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Yes, yes. Exactly. And I think that, like for me, I'm in a place where, and this may be arrogant to say, I'm not looking for sensei anymore. I'm looking for colleagues. I'm looking for people who walking the same path. And I'm looking for seniors, but I'm not looking for sensei. I'm not looking for people.
with whom I now need to base my life around. I need to dress the same and think the same. There are plenty of people that I have met that look, that define themselves by their subservient relationship to another person. There are plenty of people that I feel subservient to in so many ways, but also they're also the kind of people that going, know, pull your head out of your butt.
let's just sit there and have a coffee, have a talk. Let's get into the dojo, let's some weights together or something. And I like that. I like that as a value. And I think that that's why podcasts like Whistlekick are so important because it gives a voice. We were talking in the pre-roll about the goal of what you wanted to do to create relationships. I think that we were talking about James Pinkovich.
before who's been a guest on the show. James had this really cool way of looking at things and I think it's very much like your own. He said he had this bar on Okinawa Naha across the road from his dojo, the dojo bar, which is now unfortunately no longer with us. But someone said to him, how do you view the dojo bar or his dojo? And he goes, it's a place for starting adventures.
And I think that, you know, when you listen to whistle kick and you listen to sort of what's available and what people are doing, what you learn is that other people are just struggling with the same things that you're struggling with. And that creates a point of connection. And then you go, right, there are all these people doing all these things and they're not superhuman as far as I know.
Tuari (01:08:12.111)
They do not levitate. And they're not the Messiah, to quote Life of Brian since you brought it back. And I think it's important for us to really reach out to each other and to find connection. And I think you've always talked about that as a concept, as an idea, that it's a place for creating relationships, it's a place for starting adventures. And also I think...
It's also realizing that the adventure continues. The adventure is a, but it's up to you to kind of make that step. mean, you know, you think about, I remember you were talking to a particular gentleman whose name escapes me, a great shotgun practitioner from New Zealand, who I've never met and I didn't know existed until I listened to him on Whistlekick and had a great analysis in the way he talked about Kanate and his experience here in New Zealand.
I think he lives in the States now, but it was really nice to hear someone with my weird accent having a similar experience in martial arts in the country where I live. know, was a moment of, that's a moment of connection and a moment of acknowledgement in terms of, you we're all just trying to do this thing in whatever way we're trying to in the best possible way.
Jeremy Lesniak (01:09:36.578)
I can't imagine someone, and I know there are folks out there who have listened to, watched every episode, I can't imagine someone getting a thousand episodes deep and not recognizing, we have more in common than dividing. I don't care why you train, I don't care where you train, I don't care what you train, but the fact that we are all human means we have far more in common than we do in division.
And I think it's a matter of what we focus on. And there's a reason that the trifecta, the slogan is connect, educate, entertain, and that it's in that order. Because if we can build connection, everything else falls into place. How many of the arguments that exist over social media never happen when someone's in person? It's all connection. And there are...
researchers now saying that we are too connected because of what this is leading to. And I want to go back to your point of you're not looking for a sensei, you're looking for colleagues. And I think that that's such a beautiful sentiment.
Tuari (01:10:42.159)
Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak (01:10:59.47)
Because I think we do, we reach a point, and for all of us it's different, where yes, we want to keep learning and we want to learn from someone. But the further you get, the more you elevate someone, the more complications that creates. If I'm brand new, if I'm a white belt, if I've got no training, or let's say I go to do something completely different. Let's say I'm gonna go learn how to build a house. I'm a white belt at building a house, right?
And I get out there, I have no problem being a white belt. I hold the hammer here and I swing it in the nail and we do that. Okay, great. But if I've built 500 houses, I've probably figured out how to swing the hammer. And I probably don't need you to hyper, know, hyper fixate on how I swing the hammer. Well, maybe I want you to, right? And there's a difference in that relationship and it's choice versus
Tuari (01:11:43.931)
Yeah.
Tuari (01:11:53.179)
Hmm.
Jeremy Lesniak (01:11:58.606)
It's what I've been and I've been I've been telling my students lately. I no longer see my role. I am not their instructor. My role is to cultivate an environment in which they learn. And that for me is a very different thing. Because all of the education is not from one to one. Right, it's you know you and I are having this conversation. My wheels are turning.
I'm gonna go and there are things that I will continue to think about that I will learn as a result of this conversation. And if I've done my job right, the same is true for you and for every single person out there in the audience.
Tuari (01:12:33.908)
Likewise. Definitely.
Jeremy Lesniak (01:12:38.38)
So who's the instructor?
I think that's the wrong question. The values in creating the environment in which people learn. And anybody who's been in the front of the room knows that they learn too. And let's face it, I'm sorry, if you're out there and you're teaching and you're not learning as a result of your teaching, I think you might be teaching wrong. Or you're not being honest. I think it's one of the two.
Tuari (01:12:52.763)
Hmm.
Jeremy Lesniak (01:13:05.88)
So I don't know why or how we got there, I think we'd be making a mistake. You have a show, don't you? This is why you have Fancy Mike and Mike Arm that looks nicer than mine here.
Tuari (01:13:06.064)
Yeah.
Tuari (01:13:14.491)
Yes, yes, I do. Yes. No, I went out. Look, look, I've been, I have just been preparing for this interview for the last couple of years. So I've gone. I, I have, I have gone at one day Jeremy is going to give me the call and I'm just gonna, I'm going to be ready.
Jeremy Lesniak (01:13:24.846)
you've been building out a studio for who knows how long. Fantastic.
Jeremy Lesniak (01:13:34.318)
You gotta be ready. You gotta be ready when the call comes in.
Tuari (01:13:35.467)
So I got my lights. Well, let me tell you something, man. This morning I got up early. Well, you know, usually I get up early, but this morning was one of those I'm going to get up and usually I'm an early trainer, usually I'm a five o'clock, five, five AM trainer, but it's raining. It's cold and I have to walk. It's like 12 steps to the, to the gym. I mean, the struggle is real, but I'm going to look at least I'm going to get up and give myself a buff and a shine.
Jeremy Lesniak (01:14:01.719)
It is a struggle.
Tuari (01:14:05.403)
Cause I know that you are a fellow appreciator of the Clean Dome. But yeah, have a show. It's called the Invisible Sensei podcast. you know, like we're not at a thousand, but I mean, I have to say also too, I totally concur in that, we were talking about this and I think I will talk about it a little bit if you don't mind Jeremy and feel free to edit if it's not something.
Jeremy Lesniak (01:14:07.884)
Yes, yes.
Tuari (01:14:34.139)
talk about but one of the things that I've kind of learned from listening to your show was the imbalance, the importance I should say of being human in all of this. You you listen to those breakfast hosts in the morning go hey guys we are five away from the hour you know so this kind of manufactured kind of thing and I think that I get the sense and maybe you can answer this question maybe I can flip it on you that
A big part of why you do this is about following your own curiosity. You're having conversations that you want to have with people that you want to talk to. And sometimes people you've never talked to. mean, that's a huge part of it, following that curiosity.
Jeremy Lesniak (01:15:13.772)
Most of the time I've never talked.
If you go back and and I hope that people when they find the show don't start at episode one I want them to start at like episode 600 at the oldest in fact I want you to start with the new ones and go backwards and From what I can tell in the emails people often do that they find an episode they like and then they keep going and then they get to they get to the end which is blows my mind that they're spending that much time
Tuari (01:15:26.383)
Yeah,
Jeremy Lesniak (01:15:47.384)
And then they go back to the beginning and that's fine. That's fine. But if you look at those first, I don't know how many episodes. I had a piece of paper with, I think it was 14 canned questions. And because I didn't know what I was doing, I was a white belt at interviewing and I would shoehorn the conversation. And there were points that doing it, I didn't realize why, what was bad about it, but I knew it was bad. That someone would...
Tuari (01:15:49.198)
Yep.
Tuari (01:16:02.659)
Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak (01:16:15.96)
go on a topic they would start to drift and instead of keeping them going, I would just go, okay.
Tuari (01:16:22.619)
Mmm.
Jeremy Lesniak (01:16:24.142)
And so what's your favorite martial arts movie and it just it was so abrupt. And. I remember and what's funny is I remember. When that changed. And I don't remember the episode number I wanna say it's 238 I don't know why I want to say that but it was a gentleman from Australia David Hughes. And the first time we talked I think we lost that episode. But we had the recording was going he came on.
And we just started talking and that was it was it his prompting there was no okay, Jeremy, what do I do? He just got on and ran and I ran with him and we're 10 to 15 minutes in and I'm going.
Can I do this? Can I just keep going? Can it be this human? And he was fine with that. And we recorded it. And it wasn't as dramatic a difference because now I knew what my next step was. And the only reason we're still going, and if people haven't noticed, I don't do all the episodes anymore. And that's important to me for a variety of reasons we won't get into.
Tuari (01:17:07.931)
Yeah. Yeah.
Tuari (01:17:13.243)
Mm.
Tuari (01:17:32.129)
Mm. Mm.
Jeremy Lesniak (01:17:35.576)
But the only reason I still find this interesting a thousand episodes in is because it can be different. You're a different person than I've ever talked to on the show. I'm a slightly different person today than I was yesterday, than I will be tomorrow. And that creates an, that creates a difference. And because I've never come on and said, do this, this is right.
Tuari (01:17:42.907)
Mmm.
Tuari (01:17:50.068)
Sure.
Jeremy Lesniak (01:18:03.426)
I mean, there are very few things that I believe are objectively correct in the world. And I even couch that by saying, but I might be wrong, but I still think this, right? And that, that means that I have this huge opportunity to learn. Why did I start a school? Because there were so many pent up ideas for me talking on this show for seven years at the time, six, seven years that I said, I need to test these theories.
Tuari (01:18:14.171)
Mm.
Tuari (01:18:29.723)
Mm.
Tuari (01:18:33.179)
Hmm.
Jeremy Lesniak (01:18:33.762)
So I went and started school. But where did all the theories come from? From having these conversations.
Tuari (01:18:38.01)
Mm.
Jeremy Lesniak (01:18:42.892)
And I love that you're the fourth recording today. And another person that I talked to earlier also has a show. That's awesome. I love that. When we started the show, there were two other shows and one was defunct.
Tuari (01:18:48.839)
wow.
Mm. Mm. Mm. Yep.
Mmm. Mmm.
Jeremy Lesniak (01:19:02.668)
And I'm fantastic. I want there to be more, more martial arts shows, more martial arts schools, more martial arts styles, more martial arts companies. If martial arts makes people better, which I believe it does, and I think you agree, if martial arts brings out the best in ourselves, why would any of us not want more? Why would we not want the world to get better because there's more martial arts?
Tuari (01:19:05.231)
Hmm.
Tuari (01:19:16.985)
Mm. Mm. Mm.
Tuari (01:19:29.081)
Hmm. Yeah, I think that, you know, that the key is in the name and it's in the word arts is a massive part of, we talk about martial arts, there is an artistic element to it. And I think that the idea of creativity is really important. I mean, irrespective of what medium that takes, maybe it's not in martial arts, maybe it's sort of music or writing or painting or sculpture, maybe you'll get it.
making guitars or maybe you're great at making houses because that seems to be a theme that we've come back to a lot. you know, whatever it is, is that everyone has a story and experience. And I think in some measure, if you are able to capture that, you know, there's someone out there who's waiting to hear it and waiting to benefit from it. I know for me, you know, in terms of martial arts, having people who, you know,
Jeremy Lesniak (01:20:00.302)
You
Tuari (01:20:21.403)
who very good about not only telling their story, but encouraging my own or encouraging as a kid the idea, inviting me to the idea that I had value and that I had something to contribute. That's really important. And I think that...
You know, the creative life is a really important one. you know, we, perhaps our medium is a little bit different in the sense that, you know, we're in a gear or we're in gloves or, you know, we're on the mat or wherever it is that we are. There is an element of creativity that I think everyone brings. And the problem is, is when we kind of stifle that and we believe that, no, that's not something we do. mean, excuse me. If you...
If you're listening to this and you're someone who's always wanted to get into martial arts, and maybe you're sort of of the more mature variety, maybe you're like me in your 50s, it's not too late. And I'm not saying that in some kind of patronizing, condescending way. There is someone out there who will teach you some great stuff, not only about the arts, but about yourselves. And there's someone who's out there waiting for you to teach them something about themselves.
And like you say, standing in the front of the class, I agree with you Jeremy, if you're not learning something standing in the front of the class, you're probably not teaching right. And you probably haven't been taught right either. You know, it's a privilege to stand at the front. It's a burden to stand at the front. And if you've stood at the front for a while, it is the last place you want to be. But if you're there and you find yourself there, make the best of it. And you know, when it comes to podcasting and all those sorts of things,
Like I'm just over 300, so I'm running after you.
Jeremy Lesniak (01:22:05.678)
I don't think the word just applies there. 300 podcast episodes is significant. Okay, let's remember, Like comparison is the thief of joy.
Tuari (01:22:08.539)
But, but... Yeah.
Tuari (01:22:16.763)
Mm.
Jeremy Lesniak (01:22:18.826)
If you're comparing 300 episodes to a thousand episodes, sure, a thousand is bigger than 300. But I think that that's the wrong sample set because how many martial arts podcasts have come out and not made it to five?
Tuari (01:22:23.323)
Mm.
Tuari (01:22:29.787)
Hmm.
Tuari (01:22:36.603)
Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak (01:22:38.444)
How many people sat down with a couple friends and said, cast, and they recorded one and they had fun. And then two weeks later, they recorded another one and then they couldn't get everybody back together again because the novelty was gone.
Tuari (01:22:43.771)
Hmm.
Tuari (01:22:52.091)
Yeah. Well, you know, there's so many, there are so many, so many great, potentially great podcasts that I've listened to over the years and you're going, I was actually quite looking forward to that. then it's kind of, it faded then disappeared or reshaped and disappeared. And that's not just sort of, as you say, it's not about comparison, but I mean, to be honest, know, all good martial artists, I'm firstly a thief. When I see someone else doing what they're doing, I'm going, I'm stealing. You know,
Jeremy Lesniak (01:22:54.646)
because they weren't willing to persist as white belts in their discipline.
Tuari (01:23:21.487)
just the way in which you've set up, just the way in which you contacted me and the sort of professionalism and the mechanisms, I'm going, my God, I'm so hitting during me up to understand how you did that. It's so cool. The initial contact and all that sort of stuff, you know, because. Yeah, yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak (01:23:34.862)
Please do.
Jeremy Lesniak (01:23:39.224)
Well, first you need Andrew. You need an Andrew. You can't have my Andrew. I will fight you on that one. But you need an Andrew. for those of you who know Andrew personally, or if you've been on the show, you know how much work Andrew does, and he does such a phenomenal job. if you go back, you can tell when Andrew started working on the show. I don't remember the episode number. He probably does. But you can see a solid difference. It's like, pre-Andrew, post-Andrew.
Tuari (01:23:54.511)
He's awesome. He's awesome.
Tuari (01:24:00.249)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Well, we'll see the thing is, but what it does do, it's not about comparison, but it's the idea that something is possible. Like for me, my podcast is a solo endeavor and I lean heavily on friends to be on the show. mean, there's times when I, my initial shows, I so get what you're saying about the idea of...
Jeremy Lesniak (01:24:09.036)
or rather with Andrew, right? Pre and with.
Jeremy Lesniak (01:24:25.464)
Hmm?
Tuari (01:24:34.011)
please listen to the latest and then sort of work your way back. Because there were times when I literally had my iPhone with me and I would call up a friend of mine who I know just come back from Japan or Kenawa or whatever. said, hey, let's have lunch, man. And they go, yeah, right, should we go to a restaurant? No, no, let's just buy some food, sit in the car and just relax. And then I've locked the doors and goes, Okay guys, welcome. Just the gorilla.
have not given them a chance.
Jeremy Lesniak (01:25:05.645)
I'm a little unclear why the doors needed to be locked in this situation, but you know.
Tuari (01:25:08.539)
Because, because, because I totally, if you listen to it, there's ones where you can hear that the person didn't realize they were going to be doing a podcast. on that particular one, I'm not even the guy who bought lunch, you know? You know, so I think if you're gonna, if you're gonna use people, mean, go, go all in. But, but
Jeremy Lesniak (01:25:33.806)
It'll work. Hey, yeah, if you're gonna do it, do it right.
Tuari (01:25:36.623)
The thing which is really inspiring for me is that I've always hoped that the thing that I had was passionate about and I loved would be something which brought sort of advantages, well not advantages, but was something that I was able to do that would bring something to my family life. You know, I think when I first started doing podcasting, it's kind of like first doing martial arts. Martial arts is a lonely endeavor. You know, there are many people, I'm sure you've had the same Jeremy, who you started training with, that were ahead of you.
sort of, if that's such a thing, you know, in terms of belt experience and people went, my gosh, if we could only do what that person does and you turn around twice and they're gone. You turn around twice and it's 30 years later and you're kind of there by yourself. And there are times when it's masueras, you're going, what am I doing this for? Why do I, why do I persist in this? What is, what is the point of this? And I think I feel the same way about podcasting.
because I've chosen to do podcasting about martial arts. Sometimes, you know, people don't understand and you're there, you you work your ass off, you edit, you put it together, you spend a whole $35 on a Kmart microphone and a couple of budget lights. And then, you know, you think you've put your heart and soul into something and had a really meaningful conversation in which you've tried to, you know, with someone who...
you you look up to, or you have an affection or an appreciation of. And then you put it out and it kind of just sinks without a trace. And that's not sort of saying there's a big landscape. That's not the sort of, know, that's just what life is. But at times, those are the times, like this morning, you know, I was going, I rolled out of bed, put my feet on the floor and went too cold and rolled back in, you know, but now I have to catch up that time.
You know, so it's those things, all those things that you people don't see. the idea that you have a staff connected to the podcast is just amazing to me. I mean, I tried merchant things like that, but I think there was a couple of people who were very kind who, who bought a couple of things, but it never turned, it never turned into anything viable. And also I didn't have a plan, you know, I didn't have any kind of plan, but it's like,
Tuari (01:28:02.937)
When I first started, had these ideas of having certain friends of mine, you know, we can do the podcast together, but it, but it just never worked. They've always worked out better just if I did it myself and a lot of my episodes are not me, interviewing people because it's so much time and energy and also to editing. It's a circular. It's me talking about things that I I'm musing on or something that I saw or something that I experienced.
And it always amazes me that when people say I was in the States, I was in Canada, North America, a couple of years ago, and someone who recognized my voice in a hotel lobby, which is a million and one million to one chance. This is, you the invisible sensor? went, yes. Yes, damn it. I am, you know? And I think I bought that person coffee because I wanted to make my ego at the time. No.
Jeremy Lesniak (01:28:54.894)
I love that.
You didn't lock them in a car and record with them because that's absolutely what I would have done.
Tuari (01:29:02.607)
That's the second. That's if I'm interviewing. mean, you've got to, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And if, they better have, they better have some, they better have some great stories. And the big thing is that you have to wait for them to stop crying because it can really ruin a take, you know, you know.
Jeremy Lesniak (01:29:05.15)
lock them in an elevator, pull the stop button. So, welcome to the show.
Hahaha
Jeremy Lesniak (01:29:16.142)
Right, right. Well, that's one of the things I have, you you've got, you know, nearly a foot on me. I'm a little less intimidating.
Tuari (01:29:24.219)
you know, if you know me, you know that I'm a big, I'm a, I'm a, I'm a, you know that, you know, the state puff marshmallow man and Ghostbusters at the end. I'm like that, I'm like that guy without the attitude, you know.
Jeremy Lesniak (01:29:35.04)
Yeah. Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak (01:29:39.926)
Okay. All right. Well, you know, that does come through, right? That does come through. There's a lot of kindness, a lot of empathy in your words and just in the way that you present yourself. And I can't imagine that that's false, right? That there's no, if anything, someone coming on the show pushes them in the other direction. So if that's how you come through now, I'm sure you're a big teddy bear in person. Well, we've been going for an hour and a half. I mean, that would have burned off.
Tuari (01:29:43.493)
Mm.
Tuari (01:30:02.651)
Oh well know anyone can be nice for five minutes you know. I'm you know like yeah I'm a bit of a crime lord let's be honest about it in my own mind.
Jeremy Lesniak (01:30:11.798)
Thank you.
Jeremy Lesniak (01:30:16.974)
How do people find you?
Tuari (01:30:19.387)
If you just go online and look for Tuari Dawson, T-U-A-R-I, D-A-W-S-O-N, or the Invisible Sensei podcast, they'll come to a link tree and all those sorts of things. you know, like if you like it, please listen. Thank you for giving me some time on the podcast, man. It's really kind of cool. Just so you know.
Jeremy Lesniak (01:30:39.63)
Of of course. Would love to have you back and, you know, come on your show. I don't even care if we record it. I want to talk to you again. But we might as well record it.
Tuari (01:30:45.668)
Yeah!
I, I have, I, I never did. I never did dream that I would have Lesniak Sensei on my podcast. I, I need to take a moment with that. gosh. You know, you know, like there was, you know, there was Everest and, and Jeremy on my podcast and you know, not in that order. No.
Jeremy Lesniak (01:30:57.89)
You need to set your dreams much higher. So much higher.
Jeremy Lesniak (01:31:10.198)
If you keep going, the audience is going to think I've paid you. Which violates one of our cardinal rules that we're not pay to play. If you keep hitting this hammer too hard, they're not going to believe me when I say that again.
Tuari (01:31:19.407)
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think the thing is, is also too, mean, 6.5 million. mean, it was a, it was, I'm glad we got that deal done. I love the fact that you, that 6.5 million, but, so that was awesome. But no, seriously, thank you for having me on the podcast. I appreciate you and all the work that you do in our community. And continue to do it. And I'm gonna return the favor and wanna ask you in front of.
Jeremy Lesniak (01:31:36.693)
You know I do what I can.
Jeremy Lesniak (01:31:42.926)
Thank you.
Tuari (01:31:48.599)
all of these people if you would be on my podcast yes yes yes yes yeah
Jeremy Lesniak (01:31:51.662)
I already offered. Yeah, yeah, let's do it. It's just a question of when. We'll make it happen. It's just a question of when. In fact, I've got a 30 minute break now. then, well, we're still talking, so maybe it's not 30 minutes, but I've got a short break. And then on the hour, I'm a guest on somebody else's show.
Tuari (01:32:06.617)
Yeah.
Tuari (01:32:11.755)
look, let me tell you something. When you coming on, I will alert the prime minister. There will be, the country will stop. I mean, like I said, we're a small country, but we're a happy country. know, people will wait with bated breath for your words. And I think that Jeremy, all cramp, all bullshit, pardon me, all bears aside, I have really appreciated your work over the years. It's really informed and inspired a lot of mine.
I appreciate the fact that you've worked really hard and made decisions around actually just being a human being as opposed to some kind of caricature. I appreciate the breadth of guests that you've had on. mean, we've listened to, you know, martial arts sensei from Las Vegas to people from New Zealand and different parts of the States and different styles and approaches. I love how you incorporate media.
Jeremy Lesniak (01:33:06.094)
They can speak English, I'll have them on the show. And the only reason it's English is a requirement is because that's all I speak. I'm working on my Spanish. And if I can get fluent in Spanish, that'll open up a whole new category.
Tuari (01:33:11.725)
Yeah, AI, AI.
AI, AI my friend. But hey, thank you so much for having me Jeremy and all the best for the future. And I'm hoping this is the end of the podcast, but the start of a friendship.
Jeremy Lesniak (01:33:18.945)
That's
Sure, sure, thank you.
Jeremy Lesniak (01:33:29.154)
Well, it is absolutely the start of a friendship, but it can't be the end of the podcast because I need you to close us up and find some way to bring all of this together for the audience. before I do, do, I want to thank the audience. I hope you've had fun. I hope you check out to our show, regardless of when I'm on, because I can't imagine that, that if you've enjoyed this, you're not going to enjoy what he does.
Tuari (01:33:51.492)
You
Jeremy Lesniak (01:33:58.402)
Be aware. I've been aware of what he's doing. I try to pay attention to what everybody's doing. There's a lot more than there used to be. I used to be able to listen to every martial arts podcast. I cannot do that anymore, but I can pay attention to what's going on. Thank you to Kataro for sponsoring this and so many of our other episodes. Please check out Kataro at K-A-T-A-A-R-O.com, whether it's for the Autism Awareness Belt and the great stuff that they're doing in that space, to any of the custom belts.
Tuari (01:34:01.721)
Yeah.
Tuari (01:34:07.971)
Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak (01:34:27.758)
Code WK10 to save 10%, grab a wholesale account if you're a school. So all right, Tuari, the ball, whether it be oblong and rugby, for rugby or round or something else, thrown back to you. How do we close up today?
Tuari (01:34:45.583)
There's a saying in my language and it goes, tamatu, tamoora, tamanoho, tamamate. Which basically, it talks about the only thing in life that never changes is that which is dead. So the idea of change is that in order for us to develop, we must continue to change because the only thing that remains stationary is the thing that has no life. So if you're listening, if you're thinking that, you know, if you're in the place where you're just starting,
Enjoy this art, take time to enjoy this art. If you're at a place where you've been doing it for feels like a thousand years, know that you still have something really amazing to contribute and that there was someone who's waiting to hear and to benefit from what you do. And you know what? You may do that via walking down the street and the way that you treat other people. You may do that through technique, but tamatu, tamoora, tamanoho.
Keep developing.